Extract vs All Grain Brew Off! | American IPA
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- Today I'm brewing two recipes, an extract and all-grain American IPA. Both use the same hops and the same yeast but the extract skips the mash with liquid malt extract and steeping grains. How similar will the beers turn out?
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RECIPE FOR 3 GALLONS:
ALL GRAIN
5 lbs 5.0 oz Maris Otter
2 lbs 8.0 oz Munich Type II
EXTRACT
5.0 oz Carapils [Steep]
5.0 oz Munich II (Weyermann) [Steep]
5.0 oz Special B [Steep]
6 lbs Pale Liquid Extract [Boil]
BOTH
0.60 oz CTZ - Boil 30.0 min
0.60 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min
0.60 oz Motueka [7.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min
1.0 pkg Hornindal Kveik (Omega #OYL-091)
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Thanks for having me back. Really enjoyed the tasting.
Numbered cups. Blind folded. There was just no fooling you!
We enjoy your input friend!
@Norm, Thanks for helping with the tasting!
Hey Martin, I am an extract brewer (don't have the space for all grain) and I love it. I noticed you just poured the extract in and didn't do much stirring. If the wort isn't properly mixed in with the water it can cause the extract to scorch creating off flavors. Not sure if you did more vigorous stirring off camera but this may have caused the difference in taste as well.
He also did not wash out all the syrup from the container.
Awesome! I did something similar recently and was surprised how well the extract batch turned out. Cloning a beer with extract is a whole other level though!
Did anyone else feel like they met Martin's alter egos today lol
LOL
Hops & Gnarly, my guy!!!!
We all see it on your channel, stop promoting yourself! P.S. Just kidding, go on!
@@vasiatm hahaha I’m just a home brewer like anyone else
@@HopsANDgnarly very good home brewer! Thank you for your channel btw!
Because you added all of the extract at the beginning of the boil (you said the instructions said not to do that), your wort was too concentrated. Boiling a more concentrated wort will likely create excessive caramelization, and maillard reactions (it won't utilize your hops nearly as well, either). This is why the extract beer was so much darker, and had a dramatically different flavor and aroma from the all-grain batch. It's what many unfairly refer to as "extract twang."
This is why extract gets a bad rap. People don't use the ingredient properly, and then blame the ingredient when the beer doesn't turn out right.
And please don't take offense to any of this. I appreciate your willingness to give extract a shot. Just remember the instructions are telling you to handle the ingredient a certain way for a reason.
1:15 He said he did the full volume, how was it too concentrated
@@poisonpotato1 I believe what the OP means is that when you add ALL of the extract at the beginning of the boil, the concentration can sometimes hinder isomerization of the hops and can darken the color and change the flavor of the beer since you're caramelizing the extract more than it already is. Remember DME and LME are basically "cooked" already to concentrate them. So some caramelization is already there flavor and color-wise. For years I tried to make a light colored and flavored extract beer experimenting with both LME and DME. Final best result for me was to add about 1 or 1-1/2 pounds of DME at the beginning of the boil to isomerize the hops, and add the rest of what the recipe calls for with about 10 minutes left in the boil. That way the color remains light and you're not "over cooking" (so to speak) the DME.
@@MadMax00215 thank you so much for this explanation!
@@poisonpotato1 He says at 5:38 that the instructions say to only use half the malt extract since he's only making 3 gallons of beer and not 5. But instead he used 5 gallons worth of ingredients to make 3 gallons of beer. Hence, darker coloring and stronger flavors.
Thanks, this helped me
Oh very nice! I like Kits and think they’re a great way to bring new viewers into the hobby!
Agreed!
I think the water chemistry changed a lot here, not totally certain, but that would be my guess as to why you are seeing a difference
Yeah he definitely should have added the salts to the extract brew
Yes.. he should have added salts in both
Extract is generally produced with water that has a mineral content in it already before it’s reduced to a syrup.
Will certainly try that next time.
Maybe it contributed to the difference, but there's a lot more going on than just a difference in water chemistry.
This is the hard hitting reporting that I need in my life these days! Thanks Martin, as always for another great video. The weather here is starting to change. So I'm thinking it's time to switch over to more west coast IPA's/darker higher ABV beers for me. Cheers!
LOL.. reporting on the news that matters :) I have some darker beers in plan too.
I would never think that those two recipes would make a similar beer. Why use carapils and special b in the extract version if that's not used in all grain?
Agreed 100% Good concept for the video, but special b, at 140-150L, is adding color and flavor to the extract beer that are not present in the all-grain beer.
Todd explains that a bit in the video. I used Maris Otter as my base malt in the all-grain but didn’t have an LME equivalent on hand so tied to build it from pale LME and those specialty malts. Agree that a better test would be to match LME and all-grain base malt.
Martin, you could do a whole series of brulosophy-style videos and I guarantee homebrewers everywhere would find it extraordinarily valuable and entertaining. Comparing one variable across two brews takes three weeks and costs $50+, so it would be incredibly valuable.
My vote for your next comparison: a bitter with soft water vs burtonized (vs just gypsum if you can do 3)
Congratulations on ending up with 2 great beers. Double the fun/pleasure! 🍻
Maybe brewing with extract whilst perceived as the easy option actually is as challenging as all grain (but in different ways) when it comes to getting the result you want. Good to know though that both beers were, if different, good beers. I think the various comments on the water chemistry are very valid as it cannot only affect the mash. A great experiment.
Thanks. Completely agree with this.
I like the wardrobe swap between beers. Clever.
😆 thanks. That was partly for me so I could remember which footage was which.
Good idea to compare both results. Enjoyed this episode.
I think most extract brewers do partial boils. It would have been good to know how that would have turned out.
i love doing all grain, but damn if your not on a 240 volt system it takes a lot of time
Special B and Carapils seem quite specialty, are they really equivalent to the all grain recipe of pale MO and Munich?
Apparently maybe they are not given the results 😆
From the beginning, the first mistake was to not use water salts in the extract batch.
What sort of water salt adjustments would you make for LME?
@@TheHomebrewChallenge I'm thinking everything except the lactic acid?
Maybe for hop utilization or perception
@@JoeGraves24 my thoughts as well
I would guess that a lot of extract brewers probably don't use salts anyway so maybe the comparison is still valid but in the sense of seeing how the two processes affect the beer differently instead of trying to match the experience?
Martin its great to see you again! Thanks for another great video.
Thanks!
Love the testing and comparisons! Keep up the great work!
Thanks!
I think that during the process of reducing wort to obtain the malt extract, it's impossible to avoid some degree of caramelisation of the sugars, hence the darker color and more roasty flavour of the LME-based beer.
Ahh, good point. Didn’t think about the caramelization affecting the color but makes sense.
Hornidal kviek yeast my all time favorite yeast to use.
Its a beauty!
@@TheHomebrewChallenge yes, making and drinking good beer in the same week is always a plus for me.
Special B changes everything, it's a Belgium malt and it has a fruity (plum) flavour.
So many uncontrolled variables
Looks to the bubbles of colors....will knows...which is which
In my experience Briess Golden Light DME makes a beer similar in character to a 95% 2-Row, 5% Crystal 40 all-grain. LME is so much darker that I don't use it. I would ditch the Carapils and Special B in the extract batch and you would get a more similar beer. Maybe closer with DME. (Using 5 oz of Special B seems very odd.)
Would like to try this again with DME.
Agree, the special b will attribute alot of color and flavor!
I'm surprised to see the extract being more bitter than the extract. I would have supposed the sulfates would have amped up the bitterness. Good video Martin! 👍🍻
Exactly my expectation too 🤷♂️
Malt extracts tell you the composition of grains use. In order to properly do this experiment you would have to match the all grain batch to the extract. Not the other way around
Did you use 2x the suggested LME for the extract batch? You'd end up with a much higher gravity beer. It's like comparing a single and a double IPA at that point, no?
bold of you to assume we all started with extract ALL GRAIN FOR LIFE
I came looking for this exact content, thanks!
Hi Martin, just wondering if an extract beer does need water treatment with salts to get the chloride/sulfate ratio for the style. No mash, so pH is less of a concern.
Martin, in addition to water chemistry, I could point out that the extract batch has Special B in it while the all grain batch did not. Special B is a pretty distinctive specialty grain and gets pretty noticeable. Furthermore, the extract is composed of a different base malt than the all grain batch as well. Maris otter makes a different beer than American 2-row. Lastly, boiling all your extract in one shot always makes a darker beer.
So yes, like-for-like, I'm not surprised you brewed two different beers. This is more of a peaches-to-nectarines comparison than apples-to-apples.
I have brewed all grain and still do occasionally but rarely have the time. My preferred method is extract brewing which produces fine, commercial quality beers. I also brew kits which also, with the quality of kits today, produces perfectly acceptable beers. In other words, use what works for you. It's all good beer.
Couldn’t agree more.
This was one problem I had with extract, not really hitting the style I wanted. My other issue was most of them seemed like they tasted the same even when I was going for different styles. Granted, I did not do any of my own research into how one might make a particular style using extract, I was only using kits, so I'd be curious to go back and see if I can make my own extract recipes that do a bit better in those categories once I've learned a bit more.
Even still though, I have been enjoying all grain a whole lot, and have enjoyed my all grain beers significantly more. This was really cool to see, thanks Martin!
Funny you should say that. The extract beer reminded me very much of my Brewers Best beers. Can't quite put my finger on what characteristic that is.
Should have treated the water for the extract.....not sure why you didn't.
Comparing the taste there is a clear difference but price wise? Is the all grain cheaper than the extract?
Love the hat. Spent a 4 day weekend there back in April and it was incredible.
:)
Thanks martin, first beer i ever brew was extract.
Me too.
What a superb video. Top class
TY!
I recently stopped using LME for lighter styles. Both my kolsch and cream ales came out darker than I wanted. Did a 2 gallon split batch using DME to test out us-05 and s-04 on a neipa and got a beautiful light colored beer true to the style. I also stopped doing 60 minute boils and do 30 minutes and use half my DME as a late addition. To me it's worth using a little more hops for IBUs in order to get the right color I'm going for. I'll save the LME for red ales or darker beers in the future. I really liked this video. Very informative.
As a child I wanted to live at Disneyland. As an adult, I just want to live wherever Atlantic Brew Supply is. 😆😆😆
😆
Would be fun to see this again, but with your take on creating an extract version of one of your other recipes. Maybe German Alt Bier?
You could include instructions to use RO water, include a pack of salts, and the same (or similar) adjuncts as in the all grain version.
Yes agree. Build the water from scratch.
How much yeast do you pitch for a 3 gallon batch ? Is that measured by weight?
I always throw in the whole packet.
I have absolutely nothing against extract brewing. I've done a few - one with my own recipe and two from proper kits. The kits were really really nice in the first week or two, but as they aged, they got worse. My grain beers get better and better with age. There is a lot of fun to be had brewing from grain, and for me it's part of it.
Just out of curiosity, what was the OG and FG of each?
All-grain: OG 1.064, FG: 1.012
Extract: OG 1.066, FG: 1.014
@@TheHomebrewChallenge I always find i get a lot sweeter result with extract. I tried cloning an APA recipe that is great all grain and i usually get down to 1.010 but can never get the FG that low with extract which i assume is causing the sweetness.
Funny, my main issue I had with extracts (long time ago) was getting my final gravities above 1.010 to get more malt character. I find it easier to get the results I want going full grain. That said, extract with good yeast and hops makes decent beers.
Norm was the star of this show. Let's face it.
As usual!
Very interesting experiment. Why no Special B or Carapils in the all-grain? The grain bill seems a little thin.
Answering my own question (I asked too soon in the video). The other specialty grains make up for some of what's missing in the LME vs. using all Maris Otter.
The LME is going to sink, coat the heater coils, and then burn when the boil starts. Yuck. That's probably why the extract beer was darker. They're different because one of them was probably burned in the kettle.
Some extracts are already hopped, maybe that was the difference in aroma and taste?
Yeah I recall using a Coopers LME that was pre hopped back in the day.
Woah I've never see LME tanks like that, I gotta come visit ya just to check that out haha!
Great video. Extract brewer here and I enjoy it but I do get that horrible extract "twang" in some (but not all) of my beers, haven't figured out what causes it. Keen to try all grain but the time required puts me off a bit. I'll get around to 8t one day.
I love your vids also I haven’t finished the video yet but I think it’s unfair you didn’t treat the water for the extract I’ve been thinking about brewing a while now and I wanna know the comparison of finished products from a completely even playground but I love your vids and please keep up the good work
I'd love to see the extract done with different water qualities to see if the water makes a huge difference
Yes wondering about that too. Have always brewed my extract beers with untreated water.
@@TheHomebrewChallenge there's some discussion of malt extract having the mix of sodium, chloride, sulphites ect that you need but others suggesting it's not enough to support yeast through to completion, my next extract I think I'll be using pure RO water to see what the outcome is like, if it doesn't work 🤷♂️ be awesome to see a side by side comparison like this, I just don't really have the set up!
Interesting! Thanks for the video. One question tho ugh - how did you ensure that the LME didn't burn onto the element? could it be caramelising a bit more? Just a thought. BTW, I've never had that 'fresh' malt flavour from LME either - I moved all grain pretty quick. :)
A fair question. I turned the heating element off but yeah doesn’t mean it wasn’t still hot enough to cause caramelization.
you shouldnt have told him what beer was what
As you say, extract is a good route into the hobby and for those with less time to brew. Both produced nice drinkable ales. All grain for those with more time.. experience under their belts and wanting to get in to the hobby in more depth..
Exactly. In the end with some adjustments I think I could have got the extract closer to the all-grain. But I do enjoy the flexibility of using grains rather than extracts.
Did you add the extra water to the extract batch? I would have thought the gravity would be high if you added all the LME and made the batch smaller. I can only assume by your reply on the OG/FG question that you did. Another good video, sir. Well done.
I started with a full volume of water before adding the LME given I had the space.
I've gone from extract (with steeping grains usually) to mini-mash (which is 1/2 the grains of normal all grain + 1/2 extract) to all grain over time. The nice thing is they all make great beer. No extra equipment cost to go from extract to mini-mash. Once you go to all grain you are talking increased equipment costs but lower overall costs and more flexibility. You can make better beers but you are really only talking about smaller percentages of better beer as you tune more levers of your beer making process. Also, you are really going to get good but different beers no matter what you do. That is why clone recipes taste good but are never really much the same as the original, and even the same exact recipe with grains from different millers can make completely different beers in the end.
Half grains plus half extract is interesting - seems like a good middle ground.
how are you heating your fermenters?
Extract shouldn't even be boiled IMO. I would sterilise everything by holding the full volume dilution at close to boiling temps for a few mins with some CO2 hop extract for bitterness (sort of first wort equivalent?), and then proceed with whatever late hopping (yes - i would not do traditional mid schedule additions either!) schedule/temps. I think the effect of prolonged high temperature on extract can be characterized as the maillard reaction. Needless to say, DMS is mitigated because the production of ME has driven off any precursors. Just thoughts - i brew AG :)
nice and curious experiment...Also done by me sometimes on style that need more maturation time(as Barleywine)... differences are substantially on body and aromas...AG has the best results at all...
thank for your videos! Cheers from Italy 🍻
I feel you should have adjusted the water chemistry of the extract to match the all grain as that will have effected the flavour difference, especially of the hops. Also all that special B must have done something to the extract batch, it's not like there is much special B character in MO.
Yes next time: DME + water salt adjustments.
Mmmm interesting
What was the flavor and aroma profile of the all-grain beer?
A little more tropical fruit on the nose and a lighter fresher taste than the extract.
needs more hops
Great content as usual 👍
There’s just so many variables that can be tested! This video is making me wonder what if you put in hops with your steeping grains, then get to boil for 5 minutes to dissolve the extract and for the aroma hops…
Not a great comparison the exstract beer is almost twice as strong since it was meant to be 5 gallons and you only used 3 gallons of water need to use the proper amount of water in each recipe
Hey man, i see you mash without a jacket or any insulation? How does it keep its temp for the hour? Cheers 👍
Wow, I was interested particularly in the way you found that the hops seemed to be masked in the LME recipe because I have noticed the same effect when I tried to make a hoppy beer with using just DME. When I saw you using the steeping grains, I thought, "oh that was my mistake, I did not steep any grains with my DME recipe". I had previously made a very nice all grain IPA and loved it. When I tried the same hop additions with the DME recipe, I could not detect any hop flavours. So I did the DME recipe again and doubled the hop additions, and once again I could not detect the presence of any hops. So it would seem that using steeping grains with an extract recipe is not the answer to my hop dilemma. At this point I'm wondering if I have to keep doubling the hops until I can achieve my goals, or if I'll just end up with some unpalatable protoplasm. However, I did find it fascinating that it's not my imagination, and you have confirmed my suspicions, and I'm grateful for that.
The second mistake was using a different grain bill for each of them.
I've had many extract and all grain beers, good and bad from both methods, for me, extract always has an odd taste, they take much longer to condition too.
I didn't think about extending conditioning time. Both were 4 weeks old.
@@TheHomebrewChallenge I don't think it would have made much difference tbh. This was a good experiment Martin, great video
If I was to do this (I am actually thinking about it too. Even with Mangrove Jack's extract kit) I would definitely water adjust, and also make sure to measure the ph level before adjusting. (Like many said below) Since we do not know the water that's been used for making the extract, we will just assume the existing minerals in there already are close to average. but the tap water is still not adjusted so, that's where we need to compensate. Like others said too, less boiling of wort. most extract brews require no-boil at all, so it might be interesting to just steep the grains and boil that with the hops, adding the extract at the end. on the extract side, I would also opt for the lightest with the least amount of other grains except for the main base malt. Some say that DME might also be better. I have definitely seen that wort made from DME is lighter than the lightest LME I've ever purchased.
So much backseat brewing in the comments this time. Great video! I could tell the Extract beer straight away from the appearance, as the LME had the same colouring!
Backseat brewing 😂
I suggest it's because you doubled the amount of extract.
Brilliant! To me, this reveals the intricacy of beer brewing. You could be using two ingredients with the same label or from the same region but from 2 different providers and the resulting beers could be noticeably different. Not to mention the different brewing methods and techniques therein. Even with an expert all-grain to extract conversion, the beers are different. But I wouldn't want this to deter anyone from attempting extract brews of their favorite all-grain clone recipes (especially those getting into brewing). Excellent video!
Eew -- LME. Every beer is going to turn out that amber-ish color (unless trying to make a dark beer.) I have had decent results using DME and it is the only extract I recommend to someone getting started.
I’ve done both and I’ll never do lme again
So I asked Chat GPT to give me a recipe for a home brew stout with a lasting creamy head. Anyone care to try it as I am a novice and am starting wwith a MYO kit.
Sure, here is a recipe for a home brew stout with a creamy lasting head:
Ingredients:
6 lbs Dark Dry Malt Extract
1 lb Roasted Barley
1 lb Crystal Malt (80L)
1 lb Flaked Barley
1 oz Chinook hops
1 oz Willamette hops
1 package Irish Ale yeast
3/4 cup Priming Sugar
Instructions:
Steep the Roasted Barley and Crystal Malt in 2 gallons of water at a temperature of 155°F for 30 minutes.
Remove the grains and add the Dark Dry Malt Extract and Flaked Barley to the pot. Bring the mixture to a boil.
Add the Chinook hops and boil for 60 minutes.
Add the Willamette hops and boil for another 10 minutes.
Remove the pot from the heat and cool the wort to 70°F.
Transfer the wort to a sanitized fermenting vessel and pitch the Irish Ale yeast.
Ferment the beer for 2 weeks at a temperature of 65°F.
Transfer the beer to a bottling bucket and add the priming sugar.
Bottle the beer and let it condition for 2-3 weeks at room temperature.
Chill the beer in the refrigerator for at least 24 hours before serving.
To achieve a creamy, lasting head, make sure to pour the beer slowly and steadily into a clean, dry glass, leaving about an inch of headspace at the top. The head will be more likely to stick around if the glass is clean and free of any oils or residues.
Omega Yeast!
Martin, why do you use your old sock for extract brewing?
😆 explains the tasting notes.
@@TheHomebrewChallenge If the sock is old enough, it will be no notes, but whole music! 🤣
should have rinsed that tub out with some water after
Yeah did leave just a little behind..
Excellent video. Really enjoyed watching the compare and contrast. Would love to see your thoughts and reaction on a repeat experiment but with DME instead; half before and half at 5 mins to go. Its my current extract methodology as LME full at start had given similar results.
Seems that may be the way to go. Would like to try a DME brew day comparison next time.
Can’t see how you can call this a comparison video since one had water chemistry and one didn’t
Would have been nice if the taster would have been kept blind, if you would have opaque cups and only after tasting reveal what you did and put the glasses next to each other.
Also, the water chemistry and usage of the extract are not really fair to be honest, so IMO this video -while entertaining- doesn’t say a lot.
How the hell could you expect theese two beers turn out similar? You used different ingredients; you added Special B in extract recipe which gave dark colour and malty flavours. The results were obvious to me at the stage you started brewing.
Bruh - you said recipe needs half the can of liquid extract and you did mention you put it ALL in. You didn't do justice to what extract equivalent recipe was.
Hi I love your work. I’ve learned so much. Please learn to pronounce mow-to-ek-a properly it is a Māori word not mow-to-ka
Good thing they are different, or you might have spent 99 weeks doing it the hard way.
Lol. One of the 99 was an extract. 98 all grain.
Yeah so if you want great beer…. Don’t waste your time with extract.
Big fan Martin but this video is very flawed in it's premise. You can't compare all grain vs extract in a brew where the water and "grain" bill is completely different. Even the glasses will give you a difference.
All you can establish from this is that the Atlantic clone brew is not actually a clone of your beer. But to be fair that's true of all clone recipes.
It's not Mo Tue cha! Pronounced Mot two ache! Get it right please.
Extract is a hard no from me. I homebrew because I want to make something quality and unique.
obviously all grain tastes better
I feel like DME is a superior extract.
Yeah DME vs LME vs All-grain would have been an interesting test (and too many brew days!)
Well thank you for clearing this up. Every damn article just says personal preference of difference and you can save $10 by doing full grain. I was it really didn't matter but seems like it does. Cool I'll do full grain then