i get this problem looking for a bike for my five foot tall girlfriend. the default option is an extra small sized bike for any kind of mtb so she can get her legs over the top tube, but then hoping the reach isnt so short that her knees bash the handle bar when she tries to pedal or move around on a trail. its insane.
"700c" is a measure in millimeters. Now, please follow me down the rabbit hole. Back in the late 1890s the French had several standards for wheels. "700" meant that the wheel had an external diameter (including tire) of 700 mm. There were three configurations: "a" had a 28mm tire, "b" a 32mm tire, "c" a 38mm tire. That meant that the three types of "700" wheel (700a, 700b, 700c) had three different rim sizes. That was a constructor's nightmare even then, so in the early 1900s they standardized the rim to the one for the 700c size, and adapted different tire sizes to it. The 700c format is the ISO 622: rim effective diameter of 622mm, and if you add the width of a 38mm tire and a millimeter for the rubber thickness (twice, because you have tire above and below the rim) you get exactly: 622 + 38 x 2 + 1 x 2 = 700mm. Same for the 650b aka ISO 584. In this case, the "b" meant 32mm tire, so: 584 + 32 x 2 + 1 x 2 = 650. Of course, in the English speaking world 700mm became 28", and the 38mm tire became 1 5/8", so you have the 700c also called 28 x 1 5/8. And before you ask: yes, I spent a lot of time elucubrating over Sheldon Brown's cribsheets!
@@UserNo13 they are modern MTB standards based on pre-existing ones. MTB was born in the USA, so all measures are in inches. The original MTBs had 26" x 1.75" tires (usually just called 26"), because they evolved from old Schwinn Cruiser bikes, which were born in the 30s as kids fashion bikes resembling motorbikes, and so they had these smallish, fattish tires. But I digress. Anyway. The 26" format was fine, but someone started thinking that maybe larger wheels might be an idea. So they took existing rims - 650b and 700c, they fit a larger tire (a 2" one), measured the diameter of the complete wheel, and found 27.5" and 29" respectively. Short: - 27.5" is a 650b (584 mm) rim with a large (2" or more) tire - 29" is a 700c (622 mm) rim with a large (2" or more) tire Fun fact: theoretically you can install a 28" racing tire on a 29" rim, or a 29x2" tire on a road race rim, because they have the same rim diameter. Of course, rim width is a limitation, but there are some combinations which can work. If you really want to go down a rabbit hole about tire size (and bicycles overall), check sheldonbrown dot com.
Serious Question tho.... What about Oldie 27 Inch rims... I know those one actually rare to find bigger tire Size (what if i found 27x175 etc) I just know there just only 27x1,25 or 27x1¼
As I grow older, I realize that every single thing requires a video like this. Whether it's the origins of a sports team, or who invented a food dish, what started World War I, and so on. We get sold or taught a single version because of marketing reasons or it's taught when we're 8 years old, so that's good enough for an 8 year old, or whatever. But there is always a "in order to explain this to you beyond the received understanding, I'll have to take you back 14 years before the event, and explain the geopolitical situation of four continents..."
This was awesome! I’ve worked in a bike shop for years. I feel your pain. I have resorted to saying to customers, buying a bike is like buying clothing or even shoe for that matter, the sizes are just “suggestions.” What’s more frustrating is spending extensive time a customer, sizing them up and educating them then they turnaround a buy a bike elsewhere and expect us to assemble it. 😕 Love your rants, you say things I wish I could say out loud. 🤐
Or when they use your free time and expertise to test ride and choose the perfect bike, then buy that same bike somewhere else. Makes my blood boil, and I'm not even paid on commission.
I remember when all I had to do was straddle the bike, pick it up till it touched my "inseam" and if the wheels were at least 2 or 3 inches off the ground, the top tube wouldn't hurt me when I hopped off the saddle... so it "fit" me. Or at least gave me some assurance I'd still be able to have kids in the future.
When I used to sell used bikes I would advertise standover height measured in the center of top tube. And then give an estimate of height ranges the bike might fit.
Absolutely love it! Can't wait for the wheel/tire follow up and why there are about 3 different 24" (507, 520, 540) and 26" (559 and 590) sizes! And why do we call 700c, 28" sometimes! Why did 27" lose to 700c! WHY ARE THE 650s DIFFERENT (584, 571)!
This is hilarious - it's like years of "what I REALLY want to tell a customer" all came out at once 🙂 This was awesome! I was literally laughing out loud at this. Keep it up!
As someone who recently got into using bicycles for basic short commuting. The confusion and inconsistency around bike sizes and most things in general, was a huge barrier to entry.
Well Done! You did the best job possible trying to explain this bike sizing issue…I thought your head was gonna explode at one point but you got through it!
Thank you, Andy, for laying out the malarkey that is "bike sizing." If I managed a bicycle company I'd list *all* sizes by seatpost (center-to-center) and effective (horizontal) top tube measurements (in centimeters) - so something like 57.5/59 for a Lemond bike from the early aughts. Wheels are another bit of weird voodoo forged by marketers. Regarding the "700c" thing: the wheels are 622 millimeters in diameter, 700 mm by the time you put on a tire (probably a 20 or 21 mm width tire, given the history). 26" MTB wheels are 559 mm in diameter, etc. Woof. And that 69cm frame? EPIC and silly. Keep it up, man - TACOS! 🌮🌮🌮
Also: bike fitting is weird. I find it useful due to years of gravity sports and the resulting Orthopedic Adventures™ that have caused fit issues that are best addressed by an educated third party. But there's no one school for it, and I'm glad you point that out. Again: cheers!
Letting people know that bike sizing information is confusing and "giving permission" to people to be confused is valuable... very valuable. I also fit by looking at people ride. I gave up on size information numbers and letters.
As a former club racer and now a charity shop bike mechanic you've vastly improved my knowledge by explaining why bike sizing never made any sense. For years my rule of thumb was - what's your height and then set the seat for 50% of that, adjust from there. After watching this video I'm not so sure that sizing this way rather than measuring the downtube isn't a good place to start.
I had my local shop "fit" my Giant Cypress. The owner put the bike on a rolling stand, raised the seat to what I thought was a ridiculous height, and helped me on to try pedaling it. By the time we were ready for an official test riding the saddle was even higher. Essentially he raised the seat where I should have had it. I think I'm putting down more power this way, but the real advantage is that the bike feels a lot more comfortable. The nice thing was that the guy didn't charge me for his time. I REALLY like my bike shop. I can't speak to the more exacting fitting you're talking about, BUT getting the saddle height closer to where the rider needs it has it's benefits, my saddle was probably raised about 5 inches.
I did similar but paid for it. Well worth the money. The super cyclists or guys that buy an $8000 bike should be fit to it before laying out that kind of cash
Bike fitters have special rigs where they can change almost everything on the fly. Look stretched out? They shorten the reach. And they keep doing this until you look and feel the way you want to on a bike. Costs a couple hundred but you get a chart you can compare with when trying to buy a bike. If you're handy you can figure it out by feel and trial and error. you did a bike fit, only over a longer time of swapping parts one by one, instead of over an hour or two. A couple hundred and an afternoon or 2 weekends and dragging it through the parts bin. Stems are terrible. You may need an 80mm stem but you don't know it until you've bought a 90mm and a 70mm stem and given a fair shake to them all. All the fitter needs is an allen wrench on the telescopic stem. No undoing bar tape or, oops the cable is too short moments.
Great job on this video. You have successfully conveyed your frustrations in an educational and entertaining manner. This will be my goto to use to explain to other folks.
You are a brave lad indeed! If there was any kind of “standard” for sizing bikes, it would be something like men’s pants sizes: “fits inseam sizes 27 to 32 inches”… but you’d also need a range for torso/arm length. Arrrgh! My advice to the general buying public: go to your local bike repair/resale shop, and try riding several different bikes. Don’t waste your time or your money on the garbage sold at the big box stores, and don’t go to the big boutique bike shops that have 300 different models of new bikes (unless you have unlimited disposable cash). Whatever you buy, have the person you’re buying it for ride it before you buy it. It’s not simple or easy, but neither is buying women’s clothing: just put in the effort to find the right size, and you or someone you love will be a happy camper. From your 69yo cycling fanatic in west Texas, Happy Trails! 😎❤️
For years I thought I felt comfortable on my bike. I always felt that my legs needed to extend. A guy in spandex kit (we later became friends) came up behind me and said. “Hey your hips move too much you seat is too high”. At first I was “what does he know”. Then I did get a fitting and wow now I know what is comfortable and what a better seat height. I can do it myself now. Anyway. I am sure that you see people buying bikes that are too large and too small because they don’t know what’s really a more comfortable position. (Until you get there ) you should do an episode on seats. I love my brooks saddles. But you do need to break them in.
This is why taking a bike for a test ride is so important. I'm 5'3". Bike shops bros try to put me on an extra small bike but I prefer the feel of a small bike.
The most confusing, haphazard misinformation I have seen in a while. Good job! You proved the point! Yeah, I was chuckling while watching because even though I've been riding for 35+ years, I remain foggy for most measurements. I thought, surely the Bike Farmer can fix it for me! Nope! Again, good job in the vid, and thanks for making me laugh a bit today.
This came up on my feed again, and I've watched it a few times now and it never fails to crack me up. It reminds me of the "Who's on first?" routine. You manage to channel both Abbott AND Costello when you break out the tape measure and manage to fluster yourself with all the sizes... I almost expect you to blurt out "Who's on first, What's on second, and I DON'T KNOW how long a piece of string is!!" 😂 Thanks for the great videos, and Merry Christmas, Andy!
We didn’t have any money and the only bike we had to learn on was a single speed 26 inch bike. We learned to dismount as we wete coming to a stop. Sometimes you just do with what you have. That was like 60 years ago.
for anyone curious about bmx sizing, they go by top tube length. for example a large bmx i test rode last year is spec'd 20.75" TT. i wonder with the frame size in inches if they usually made those odd numbers for less confusion with the wheel sizes which are usually even numbers. i'm amazed that people come in looking for a specific frame size -- part of why i don't want to order a bike for myself online is i'd need to get on it to check the fit. i've done it for kids though because kids don't stay the same size anyway. i totally agree that 18" wheel size is ridiculous but i wonder if in the cheap bike world (department store or amazon bikes) there's less adjustability and the 14" actually does fill in a gap between 12" and 16"
This video was hilarious!😂 Watching your frustration come out over bike sizes and their arbitrary numbers is like me talking about my maintenance job with a large corporation. I AM picking up what you're putting down!😂
I think the best concise answer is that it's all contextual, bike-specific, customer-specific, and component-specific, AND that the only real way to size a particular bike a particular person is to get them on it. But, yeah, I feel your pain. In addition to all factors you mentioned, there's also: - Individual body proportions, i.e. arm length to torso length to leg length. Two people who are both 6'0" almost certainly won't fit the same way on a given bike. - Height of the seat post/saddle and orientation and height of the stem. - Orientation, height, and type of handlebars. - How upright or leaned forward you sit on the bike, given that changes the position of your hips and legs. - Length of the crank arms. On and on, ad nauseam. Thanks for the content and cheers!
I really feel this when I'm trying to explain the various measurements, standards and conversions for the industry that I work in. This is the best video I've watched in a long time.
The great advantage ISO-ETRTO sizing is that it is unambiguous; previously, nominal dimensions were used which were interpreted in different ways by different countries and manufacturers - a problem for the end user.
Hilarious, but all true! My first "adult" bike was a Peugeot 10-speed with 27 inch skinny tires. I think the frame was about 20 or 21 inches, the smallest frame I could find at the time (in the mid 1970's). That bike was always a bit big for me. The sloped frames are much kinder to us short people. But the big puzzle is how do you size a bike with a step-through frame? I think you have to pretend where the top tube would have been if it had a normal horizontal top tube. As I'm aging and getting arthritis I am much more interested in step-through bike frames, and it's not always possible to find them. I've noticed that "gravel" bikes don't come with step-through frames. like it's not important to make bikes for us in the older crowd? This video is the best bicycle vid I've watched in a while, so thanks for making my day!
Learned how useless bike " sizes" are when I decided to buy a new bike. Get on the bike and if it feels good and you like it go for it. Tweek as required. I still love my old Giant Sedona DX "good enough for who it is for" bike. Thanks for the honest and forthright analysis.
Hilarious!! Hope you are keeping your blood pressure under control! I can guess maybe a lot of this frustrating situation comes from parents/grandparents buying little (or not so little) Timmy/Susy a bike for a birthday or Christmas present and wanting to keep it a surprise. Also that "grow into it" concept can be overdone, even if the kid goes with parents to the store to pick out the bike, as I did. My folks, both raised poor on small farms in the Great Depression, got me a 24" (wheel size) Western Auto Flyer when I was a medium-sized brand-new 5 year old. I probably inherited their Scotch attitude and egged them on to get myself the biggest bike possible, because in America, bigger is better, right? Training wheels were the only thing that made riding that balloon-tired behemoth possible. Consequently I never learned to ride without them, and mostly quit riding about age 7, because at that age, having training wheels on your bike was the uncoolest thing possible, as everybody else my age could ride without them. Luckily, we moved a year or two later, and a new friend I met another year later said one day, "We're gonna teach you how to ride that bike! (Inspired by his two teacher parents, maybe; but he sweetened the deal by promising to make me some cinnamon toast if I kept at it until I succeeded.) I was now almost 10 and strong enough for the bike without training wheels; within a couple hours I had it figured out. Except a day or two later when we rode two miles across town and, suddenly confronted by one of the very few (fortunately small) hills in town, I panicked and forgot how to work the coaster brake, instead running the bike into an 8-inch curb in an attempt to stop it. Ultimately undeterred, I went on to commute to school and work by bike for 50 years, and do some extensive touring in my college years. My friend went on to become a state-award-winning high school teacher.
It seems to disarm people pretty quickly. There are some people that are convinced they are a 17 (or whatever) but if you can get them on a "medium" that delivers positive feedback, they'll trust your judgement.
I think bikes should just be sold with a size range listed that is measured from the top of the pedal at the bottom of the stroke to the top of the saddle at its minimum and maximum setting. Then all you have to do is take an inseam measurement and that can place you in the ballpark. Little hard to measure on a used bike but it would make more sense than this. Unless there are details and reasons for things I don't know.😅 Been watching for a few months now and I really enjoy your content. I find it not only entertaining but valuable and useful. I have a 40+ year old Huffy three speed drop bar and Schwinn 5 speed from '72 and I treasure them dearly. While not everything you do is applicable I have found much use and a confidence boost in working on these by watching your videos. Maybe someday I would like to bring them out to you as I think you would get a kick out of them. Keep on keeping on man.
I rebuilt a Peugeot Mixte for my son and converted the 27-1/4” tires to 700c. I had to file the center pull brake holders about an 1/8” to get the pad on the rim, but it works great with 700x35 tires.
1974, 50 years ago, really! I got the last bike I owned. There have been a lot of incantations over the years. Thank you for even attempting such a subject.
😂😂 I had fun sizing my free ride bikes. My first one is a Cove G-Spot FR full suspension which is 17 1/2 inches from the centre of the bb to the top of the seat tube. Then I got my Cove Stiffee FR hard tail which is 19 1/2 inches. Both the same stand over height, exact same size(large) and fit me perfectly. If I hadn't taken into account that the bb on the G-Spot was 2" higher of the ground I would have ordered a frame that's too big for me.
I just bought a brand new Haro Thread Two dirt jumper bike with *drumroll* 26 inch wheels. So they're not quite dead yet lol. Dirt jumpers are basically small frame single speed mountain bikes that people use for big dirt jump lines, pump tracks, and as a less goofy looking BMX bike alternative for skatepark and street tricks.
Thank you for this great video. In a forum, a guy asked a balance bike for his kid. People have tried to convince him not to need a balance bike.. just remove the pedals and your kid learn how to balance on the bike in 10 minutes. But he insisted a buy a balance bike. People sometimes want to be deceived.
Super confusing 😖. Thanks for clearing things up and making bike sizing even more complex. Not that I didn't already know the bike industry has standards...well maybe not.
My back aches from watching this. 700c is actually the volume of mucus that collects on an elderly possum when you drag it 4.6 yards, or wait is that 650b?
This was an excellent video. High-level content. This was particularly interesting to me because I am 6‘5“ and have a hard time finding frames that fit me. I think I still will have a hard time.
I feel your pain. Forget about finding nice used bikes, and new ones, if they actually make one our size, won't be in stock because why waste floor space on a bike that fits maybe ¼% of the population? After many years of riding I finally treated myself to a custom-built bike. I love it.
Listening to these bike videos while biking to work. This video hits on great points, you don’t need perfect geometry to enjoy a bike. People travelled the world on penny farthings. If you can ride it, it’s your size. Keep pumping out great videos I can listen to on my way to work! I’m way less tough or mechanically dexterous than I think I am, but I still enjoy listening to these videos on my way to work. 10/10.
The trick for the correct sizing of kids bikes is to check the crank length. It should be around 10% of child's height. Good quality kids bikes (Woom, Scott) have geometries that allow small children to ride big wheels. Example my son's Scott is 26" but he rides it since he was 135cm tall.
Best bike fit video ever! Finally not a quack talking about his magic highly secret method than surely is to complicated for any mortal cyclist and therefore keeps talking in riddles without offering any clue.
Amazing video. I kind of want to show this to whoever wants me to help find them a bike next. 2 years ago I was offered an Opus hybrid 700c bike that needed a bit of work for a bargain I couldn't refuse given its overall decent condition. It is 17.5" seat post tube measured your way, 19.5 to the seat clamp, Opus calls it a 20". The top tube measures 21". I measure between 5'10 and 5'11 depending on what time of day it is. I replaced its flat bar with road/gravel drop bars and after fine tuning everything else, swapped the 100mm stem for a120mm. I love it, I feel comfortable riding it for extended periods of time and nothing hurts, it feels fast and stable and I absolutely love riding it. Part of me wants to go get a bike fit to see if I was just lucky, or if I got it all "wrong" according to them. Seeing as I am loving life on the bike, I guess I will keep the money and enjoy my blissful ignorance. P.s. I started occasionally watching your channel at about the same time as I found this bike, and since then helped unite 4 people with "new used" bikes that I put together for them upon request, which included test rides and help adjusting their position, there's no doubt your videos gave me a bit of a confidence boost to undertake these restorations/tune ups. Right now I am working on a Brompton I found in the trash. 😀
I have read a book from around 30 years ago, and it dealt with this problem the easy way: Find your three areas of contact on an old fashioned bike-fitting stand and then look around for a matching bike. On the internet, there are some good graphics showing how this translates to actual bike frames. Perhaps this is a way to show walmarted parents your competence ;)
This is a classic. You nailed this! Confusing AF from a customer! So I know it's confusing for the shops. Also KEY REASON WHY buying online is NEVER going to work long term. I know because I'm now having a bike I bought online get modified by my local bike store to fit me better! Next bike is coming from the local bike shop. Fool me once
As you stated, the best way to know if a bike fits is to try a bike out and from there measure the one what works and any new or used bike find the measurements. It kinda why online brands lay out the full measurements of their bikes.
Missed oportunity to have the "rant stand" in the background as you went full unhinged on the bike size topic. ;) Having a growing kid I feel your pain.
Wheel sizes are a dumpster fire! Everyone should just use the ETRTO standard, the tyre seat diameter in millimeters. So 700c is 622, 27.5" or 650B is 584, and a 16" Brompton is in fact 349. There is a different 16" standard, 355 mm. ETRTO or bust! As far as the road frame sizing goes, with the sloping top tubes the seat tube length means nothing. Horizontal top tube length is the modern frame size (or stack & reach if you're nerdy).
Totally agree, before sloping top tubes the seat tube length really made sense but that all when out the window when the top tube was no longer horizontal. It's easy to move a seat up and down several inches, but you can't adjust the seat-to-handlebar distance so easily. Size the frame on the reach to the bars and you'll be golden.
That was entertaining! I am about 9 months into my bike hobby and figured out for me, 5'3" size small, is standover height, and can I get the seat low enough (or high) to reach the pedals and extend my legs without feeling all cooped up. I have acquired too many bikes as experiments to find out what do I like to ride and what works in the area where I live.
I loved the way Cannondale made in USA used to put out geometry charts with sizes S to L , when it came to sizing they said go to your Cannondale retailer !! Brake like the wind Buddy !
Brilliant video. The question I’ve had for 30 years, as a curmudgeon, was answered; in the 26er ATB category, what’s the difference in frame sizes regarding wheelbase, bottom bracket height, reach, headtube angle, etc? Nothing. Proportion does not change, just seat tube height. How do I decide which size I need? Sit on it, not measure it.
This is the funniest video ever ! "It's consumer products made for you to buy things you really not need " 😂😂😂 You might shut me up but I think talking about geometry could be good. For adult bikes maybe explain reach, stack and top tube logitude. This is how I been buying bicycles for over 20 years. All fit perfectly. So true the numbers of bicycle sizes and inseams are worthless is more about geometry and understanding how you fit in the geometry. Agree bike fits are many times not worth it.
Listening to this felt even more confusing than my college calculus course, but also very relieving that even a bike mechanic also does not know what the hell is going on with sizing
Месяц назад+1
Inch sizes for wheels are super duper confusing. Just go with ETRTO sizes which are rim diameter in millimeters. You can't really have the same confusion as with all the ”26 inch" wheel sizes that aren't compatible with each other.
this was hilarious. I genuinely laughed out loud at "if you haven't clicked out already, imagine having this conversation with a customer"
Taking on this topic makes you the bravest RUclips bicycle mechanic ever.
some might say you would also need to me handsome and good with the ladies
Foolhardy is the word. Everyone will find something to disagree with. Which is why I love the bikefarmer!
i get this problem looking for a bike for my five foot tall girlfriend. the default option is an extra small sized bike for any kind of mtb so she can get her legs over the top tube, but then hoping the reach isnt so short that her knees bash the handle bar when she tries to pedal or move around on a trail. its insane.
I could not agree more.
This was fantastic!
Thank you.
"700c" is a measure in millimeters. Now, please follow me down the rabbit hole.
Back in the late 1890s the French had several standards for wheels. "700" meant that the wheel had an external diameter (including tire) of 700 mm. There were three configurations: "a" had a 28mm tire, "b" a 32mm tire, "c" a 38mm tire. That meant that the three types of "700" wheel (700a, 700b, 700c) had three different rim sizes. That was a constructor's nightmare even then, so in the early 1900s they standardized the rim to the one for the 700c size, and adapted different tire sizes to it. The 700c format is the ISO 622: rim effective diameter of 622mm, and if you add the width of a 38mm tire and a millimeter for the rubber thickness (twice, because you have tire above and below the rim) you get exactly: 622 + 38 x 2 + 1 x 2 = 700mm.
Same for the 650b aka ISO 584. In this case, the "b" meant 32mm tire, so: 584 + 32 x 2 + 1 x 2 = 650.
Of course, in the English speaking world 700mm became 28", and the 38mm tire became 1 5/8", so you have the 700c also called 28 x 1 5/8.
And before you ask: yes, I spent a lot of time elucubrating over Sheldon Brown's cribsheets!
Thanks for the info.
What about 27.5" and 29" tires? Where do they fall? 😮
@@UserNo13 they are modern MTB standards based on pre-existing ones.
MTB was born in the USA, so all measures are in inches. The original MTBs had 26" x 1.75" tires (usually just called 26"), because they evolved from old Schwinn Cruiser bikes, which were born in the 30s as kids fashion bikes resembling motorbikes, and so they had these smallish, fattish tires. But I digress.
Anyway. The 26" format was fine, but someone started thinking that maybe larger wheels might be an idea. So they took existing rims - 650b and 700c, they fit a larger tire (a 2" one), measured the diameter of the complete wheel, and found 27.5" and 29" respectively.
Short:
- 27.5" is a 650b (584 mm) rim with a large (2" or more) tire
- 29" is a 700c (622 mm) rim with a large (2" or more) tire
Fun fact: theoretically you can install a 28" racing tire on a 29" rim, or a 29x2" tire on a road race rim, because they have the same rim diameter. Of course, rim width is a limitation, but there are some combinations which can work.
If you really want to go down a rabbit hole about tire size (and bicycles overall), check sheldonbrown dot com.
not only did I gain better understanding of wheel sizes, I also learnt the word elucubrate : )
Serious Question tho.... What about Oldie 27 Inch rims... I know those one actually rare to find bigger tire Size (what if i found 27x175 etc)
I just know there just only 27x1,25 or 27x1¼
As I grow older, I realize that every single thing requires a video like this. Whether it's the origins of a sports team, or who invented a food dish, what started World War I, and so on. We get sold or taught a single version because of marketing reasons or it's taught when we're 8 years old, so that's good enough for an 8 year old, or whatever. But there is always a "in order to explain this to you beyond the received understanding, I'll have to take you back 14 years before the event, and explain the geopolitical situation of four continents..."
That’s so true! There’s so much nuance beyond the convenient easy to package “truth”
This was awesome! I’ve worked in a bike shop for years. I feel your pain. I have resorted to saying to customers, buying a bike is like buying clothing or even shoe for that matter, the sizes are just “suggestions.” What’s more frustrating is spending extensive time a customer, sizing them up and educating them then they turnaround a buy a bike elsewhere and expect us to assemble it. 😕 Love your rants, you say things I wish I could say out loud. 🤐
Or when they use your free time and expertise to test ride and choose the perfect bike, then buy that same bike somewhere else. Makes my blood boil, and I'm not even paid on commission.
So much fun! Let's do bottom brackets next week!
I remember when all I had to do was straddle the bike, pick it up till it touched my "inseam" and if the wheels were at least 2 or 3 inches off the ground, the top tube wouldn't hurt me when I hopped off the saddle... so it "fit" me. Or at least gave me some assurance I'd still be able to have kids in the future.
Those were the good ol' days! 😂
When I used to sell used bikes I would advertise standover height measured in the center of top tube. And then give an estimate of height ranges the bike might fit.
You totally missed the obvious point Andy because my bike size is "red."
Must be green and Celeste is just an off shade of green.
@@escgoogle3865 Celeste is Italian for mint meltaway
Now we’re getting somewhere….. 😂
@Foinnse 😁
Absolutely love it!
Can't wait for the wheel/tire follow up and why there are about 3 different 24" (507, 520, 540) and 26" (559 and 590) sizes! And why do we call 700c, 28" sometimes! Why did 27" lose to 700c! WHY ARE THE 650s DIFFERENT (584, 571)!
Yeah, F that noise, I only speak ERTO
This is hilarious - it's like years of "what I REALLY want to tell a customer" all came out at once 🙂 This was awesome! I was literally laughing out loud at this. Keep it up!
As someone who recently got into using bicycles for basic short commuting. The confusion and inconsistency around bike sizes and most things in general, was a huge barrier to entry.
It's intentional, so you adopt one bike brand and stick with it because it makes sense to you and every other bike brand is stupid.
one of the best and funniest reviews of sizes I've seen
I'm loving this. Try explaining it in such an orderly concise way to a customer standing there. It's a talent in itself. I'd need a teleprompter.
Love your stuff, Bike Farmer! I won’t comment. It’ll make things worse. lol! You’re the best!
~ minute 13:46... What you said and the look on your face is absolutely priceless.
Well Done! You did the best job possible trying to explain this bike sizing issue…I thought your head was gonna explode at one point but you got through it!
Thank you, Andy, for laying out the malarkey that is "bike sizing." If I managed a bicycle company I'd list *all* sizes by seatpost (center-to-center) and effective (horizontal) top tube measurements (in centimeters) - so something like 57.5/59 for a Lemond bike from the early aughts. Wheels are another bit of weird voodoo forged by marketers. Regarding the "700c" thing: the wheels are 622 millimeters in diameter, 700 mm by the time you put on a tire (probably a 20 or 21 mm width tire, given the history). 26" MTB wheels are 559 mm in diameter, etc. Woof. And that 69cm frame? EPIC and silly. Keep it up, man - TACOS! 🌮🌮🌮
Also: bike fitting is weird. I find it useful due to years of gravity sports and the resulting Orthopedic Adventures™ that have caused fit issues that are best addressed by an educated third party. But there's no one school for it, and I'm glad you point that out. Again: cheers!
Thanks hey!
Letting people know that bike sizing information is confusing and "giving permission" to people to be confused is valuable... very valuable. I also fit by looking at people ride. I gave up on size information numbers and letters.
"And they're both garbage..." Genius. Thanks for another great one.
As a former club racer and now a charity shop bike mechanic you've vastly improved my knowledge by explaining why bike sizing never made any sense. For years my rule of thumb was - what's your height and then set the seat for 50% of that, adjust from there. After watching this video I'm not so sure that sizing this way rather than measuring the downtube isn't a good place to start.
I had my local shop "fit" my Giant Cypress. The owner put the bike on a rolling stand, raised the seat to what I thought was a ridiculous height, and helped me on to try pedaling it. By the time we were ready for an official test riding the saddle was even higher. Essentially he raised the seat where I should have had it. I think I'm putting down more power this way, but the real advantage is that the bike feels a lot more comfortable. The nice thing was that the guy didn't charge me for his time. I REALLY like my bike shop. I can't speak to the more exacting fitting you're talking about, BUT getting the saddle height closer to where the rider needs it has it's benefits, my saddle was probably raised about 5 inches.
I did similar but paid for it. Well worth the money. The super cyclists or guys that buy an $8000 bike should be fit to it before laying out that kind of cash
Bike fitters have special rigs where they can change almost everything on the fly. Look stretched out? They shorten the reach. And they keep doing this until you look and feel the way you want to on a bike. Costs a couple hundred but you get a chart you can compare with when trying to buy a bike.
If you're handy you can figure it out by feel and trial and error. you did a bike fit, only over a longer time of swapping parts one by one, instead of over an hour or two. A couple hundred and an afternoon or 2 weekends and dragging it through the parts bin.
Stems are terrible. You may need an 80mm stem but you don't know it until you've bought a 90mm and a 70mm stem and given a fair shake to them all. All the fitter needs is an allen wrench on the telescopic stem. No undoing bar tape or, oops the cable is too short moments.
Great job on this video. You have successfully conveyed your frustrations in an educational and entertaining manner. This will be my goto to use to explain to other folks.
Your tape-measure gesture-work is second to none
You are a brave lad indeed! If there was any kind of “standard” for sizing bikes, it would be something like men’s pants sizes: “fits inseam sizes 27 to 32 inches”… but you’d also need a range for torso/arm length. Arrrgh!
My advice to the general buying public: go to your local bike repair/resale shop, and try riding several different bikes. Don’t waste your time or your money on the garbage sold at the big box stores, and don’t go to the big boutique bike shops that have 300 different models of new bikes (unless you have unlimited disposable cash).
Whatever you buy, have the person you’re buying it for ride it before you buy it. It’s not simple or easy, but neither is buying women’s clothing: just put in the effort to find the right size, and you or someone you love will be a happy camper. From your 69yo cycling fanatic in west Texas, Happy Trails! 😎❤️
For years I thought I felt comfortable on my bike. I always felt that my legs needed to extend. A guy in spandex kit (we later became friends) came up behind me and said. “Hey your hips move too much you seat is too high”. At first I was “what does he know”. Then I did get a fitting and wow now I know what is comfortable and what a better seat height. I can do it myself now. Anyway. I am sure that you see people buying bikes that are too large and too small because they don’t know what’s really a more comfortable position. (Until you get there ) you should do an episode on seats. I love my brooks saddles. But you do need to break them in.
I’m contemplating traveling a great distance to have this shop sell me a touring bicycle. Fantastic video.
This is why taking a bike for a test ride is so important. I'm 5'3". Bike shops bros try to put me on an extra small bike but I prefer the feel of a small bike.
The most confusing, haphazard misinformation I have seen in a while. Good job! You proved the point! Yeah, I was chuckling while watching because even though I've been riding for 35+ years, I remain foggy for most measurements. I thought, surely the Bike Farmer can fix it for me! Nope! Again, good job in the vid, and thanks for making me laugh a bit today.
This came up on my feed again, and I've watched it a few times now and it never fails to crack me up. It reminds me of the "Who's on first?" routine. You manage to channel both Abbott AND Costello when you break out the tape measure and manage to fluster yourself with all the sizes... I almost expect you to blurt out "Who's on first, What's on second, and I DON'T KNOW how long a piece of string is!!" 😂 Thanks for the great videos, and Merry Christmas, Andy!
We didn’t have any money and the only bike we had to learn on was a single speed 26 inch bike. We learned to dismount as we wete coming to a stop. Sometimes you just do with what you have. That was like 60 years ago.
You just made me remember all the "bikesplaining" I had to do when I worked at a bike shop in the 90's. I don't miss that. 😐
for anyone curious about bmx sizing, they go by top tube length. for example a large bmx i test rode last year is spec'd 20.75" TT.
i wonder with the frame size in inches if they usually made those odd numbers for less confusion with the wheel sizes which are usually even numbers. i'm amazed that people come in looking for a specific frame size -- part of why i don't want to order a bike for myself online is i'd need to get on it to check the fit. i've done it for kids though because kids don't stay the same size anyway.
i totally agree that 18" wheel size is ridiculous but i wonder if in the cheap bike world (department store or amazon bikes) there's less adjustability and the 14" actually does fill in a gap between 12" and 16"
Very nice video. Thanks for all the insight into bike sizes. It confirms that I'm not the only one that's confused. Thanks again.
This video was hilarious!😂 Watching your frustration come out over bike sizes and their arbitrary numbers is like me talking about my maintenance job with a large corporation. I AM picking up what you're putting down!😂
I think the best concise answer is that it's all contextual, bike-specific, customer-specific, and component-specific, AND that the only real way to size a particular bike a particular person is to get them on it. But, yeah, I feel your pain. In addition to all factors you mentioned, there's also:
- Individual body proportions, i.e. arm length to torso length to leg length. Two people who are both 6'0" almost certainly won't fit the same way on a given bike.
- Height of the seat post/saddle and orientation and height of the stem.
- Orientation, height, and type of handlebars.
- How upright or leaned forward you sit on the bike, given that changes the position of your hips and legs.
- Length of the crank arms.
On and on, ad nauseam. Thanks for the content and cheers!
I really feel this when I'm trying to explain the various measurements, standards and conversions for the industry that I work in. This is the best video I've watched in a long time.
Great video and I share your frustration. Go for tyre sizes, there are lots of similar sizes, but that's when you need ERTHO where 26 inch is 559. 😂
ERTRO sizing for wheels/tires uses the size of the rim without the tire. Which I find somewhat more usable and less confusing.
The great advantage ISO-ETRTO sizing is that it is unambiguous; previously, nominal dimensions were used which were interpreted in different ways by different countries and manufacturers - a problem for the end user.
Great Job Andy!!! Another This Grinds My Gears from the Master!!!
Hilarious, but all true! My first "adult" bike was a Peugeot 10-speed with 27 inch skinny tires. I think the frame was about 20 or 21 inches, the smallest frame I could find at the time (in the mid 1970's). That bike was always a bit big for me. The sloped frames are much kinder to us short people. But the big puzzle is how do you size a bike with a step-through frame? I think you have to pretend where the top tube would have been if it had a normal horizontal top tube. As I'm aging and getting arthritis I am much more interested in step-through bike frames, and it's not always possible to find them. I've noticed that "gravel" bikes don't come with step-through frames. like it's not important to make bikes for us in the older crowd? This video is the best bicycle vid I've watched in a while, so thanks for making my day!
Learned how useless bike " sizes" are when I decided to buy a new bike. Get on the bike and if it feels good and you like it go for it. Tweek as required. I still love my old Giant Sedona DX "good enough for who it is for" bike. Thanks for the honest and forthright analysis.
I watched it. Enjoyed it. Didn’t understand it.
But hell I can’t paint either but I still watch Bob Ross.
Hilarious!! Hope you are keeping your blood pressure under control! I can guess maybe a lot of this frustrating situation comes from parents/grandparents buying little (or not so little) Timmy/Susy a bike for a birthday or Christmas present and wanting to keep it a surprise.
Also that "grow into it" concept can be overdone, even if the kid goes with parents to the store to pick out the bike, as I did. My folks, both raised poor on small farms in the Great Depression, got me a 24" (wheel size) Western Auto Flyer when I was a medium-sized brand-new 5 year old. I probably inherited their Scotch attitude and egged them on to get myself the biggest bike possible, because in America, bigger is better, right? Training wheels were the only thing that made riding that balloon-tired behemoth possible. Consequently I never learned to ride without them, and mostly quit riding about age 7, because at that age, having training wheels on your bike was the uncoolest thing possible, as everybody else my age could ride without them.
Luckily, we moved a year or two later, and a new friend I met another year later said one day, "We're gonna teach you how to ride that bike! (Inspired by his two teacher parents, maybe; but he sweetened the deal by promising to make me some cinnamon toast if I kept at it until I succeeded.) I was now almost 10 and strong enough for the bike without training wheels; within a couple hours I had it figured out. Except a day or two later when we rode two miles across town and, suddenly confronted by one of the very few (fortunately small) hills in town, I panicked and forgot how to work the coaster brake, instead running the bike into an 8-inch curb in an attempt to stop it. Ultimately undeterred, I went on to commute to school and work by bike for 50 years, and do some extensive touring in my college years. My friend went on to become a state-award-winning high school teacher.
Can relate way too much...we are getting ready to switch to XS,S,M,L,XL in our shop. Marginally less confusing than the inch system
It seems to disarm people pretty quickly. There are some people that are convinced they are a 17 (or whatever) but if you can get them on a "medium" that delivers positive feedback, they'll trust your judgement.
I think bikes should just be sold with a size range listed that is measured from the top of the pedal at the bottom of the stroke to the top of the saddle at its minimum and maximum setting. Then all you have to do is take an inseam measurement and that can place you in the ballpark. Little hard to measure on a used bike but it would make more sense than this. Unless there are details and reasons for things I don't know.😅
Been watching for a few months now and I really enjoy your content. I find it not only entertaining but valuable and useful. I have a 40+ year old Huffy three speed drop bar and Schwinn 5 speed from '72 and I treasure them dearly. While not everything you do is applicable I have found much use and a confidence boost in working on these by watching your videos. Maybe someday I would like to bring them out to you as I think you would get a kick out of them. Keep on keeping on man.
I rebuilt a Peugeot Mixte for my son and converted the 27-1/4” tires to 700c. I had to file the center pull brake holders about an 1/8” to get the pad on the rim, but it works great with 700x35 tires.
Perfect explanation, Andy. Thanks for clarifying bike sizing in such exquisite detail! 😳
1974, 50 years ago, really! I got the last bike I owned. There have been a lot of incantations over the years. Thank you for even attempting such a subject.
I volunteered at a community bike co-op fitting bikes to people. Thanks for the help!
Thank you Bike Farmer!! You have melted my brain!!! lol!!😂 Merry Xmas to all!🥳
Thanks!
Thanks hey!!
Love your take on this Andy. Couldn' help chuckling away several times there! Is this possibly your YT vid you've had us laughing the most to ;-) ?
😂😂 I had fun sizing my free ride bikes. My first one is a Cove G-Spot FR full suspension which is 17 1/2 inches from the centre of the bb to the top of the seat tube. Then I got my Cove Stiffee FR hard tail which is 19 1/2 inches. Both the same stand over height, exact same size(large) and fit me perfectly. If I hadn't taken into account that the bb on the G-Spot was 2" higher of the ground I would have ordered a frame that's too big for me.
As a newer mechanic this helped me so much
Thanks!
I'm a road cyclist, 6'0" minus missing cartilage. I'm shopping for a frameset, and my search range is usually 53-56cm. But sometimes a 58cm works.
Great video, my son’s first bike was a 16’ bike. Plenty of room for him to grow and learn on.
Great video, i now completely ignore frame size and just look at stack and reach and compare to existing bikes I have.
I just bought a brand new Haro Thread Two dirt jumper bike with *drumroll* 26 inch wheels. So they're not quite dead yet lol. Dirt jumpers are basically small frame single speed mountain bikes that people use for big dirt jump lines, pump tracks, and as a less goofy looking BMX bike alternative for skatepark and street tricks.
Thank you for this great video. In a forum, a guy asked a balance bike for his kid. People have tried to convince him not to need a balance bike.. just remove the pedals and your kid learn how to balance on the bike in 10 minutes. But he insisted a buy a balance bike. People sometimes want to be deceived.
Super confusing 😖.
Thanks for clearing things up and making bike sizing even more complex.
Not that I didn't already know the bike industry has standards...well maybe not.
You didn't cover Brompton however you have my thanks for explaining why I don't understand 700c. Cheers for a great video!
I fit my wife onto a 24 inch. She loves it. Bike size really is personal. Great video Bike Farmer!
My back aches from watching this. 700c is actually the volume of mucus that collects on an elderly possum when you drag it 4.6 yards, or wait is that 650b?
I really dig the pit bike. First time seeing one of those. Those size differentiations are super confusing. I appreciate the lesson though.
Throw in traditional frame versus compact just for fun 😂
Wow! Clear as mud. Thanks BikeFarmer, you are the best.
This was an excellent video. High-level content.
This was particularly interesting to me because I am 6‘5“ and have a hard time finding frames that fit me. I think I still will have a hard time.
I feel your pain. Forget about finding nice used bikes, and new ones, if they actually make one our size, won't be in stock because why waste floor space on a bike that fits maybe ¼% of the population? After many years of riding I finally treated myself to a custom-built bike. I love it.
Listening to these bike videos while biking to work. This video hits on great points, you don’t need perfect geometry to enjoy a bike. People travelled the world on penny farthings. If you can ride it, it’s your size. Keep pumping out great videos I can listen to on my way to work! I’m way less tough or mechanically dexterous than I think I am, but I still enjoy listening to these videos on my way to work. 10/10.
The trick for the correct sizing of kids bikes is to check the crank length. It should be around 10% of child's height. Good quality kids bikes (Woom, Scott) have geometries that allow small children to ride big wheels. Example my son's Scott is 26" but he rides it since he was 135cm tall.
I wonder, sir, may I please see your line of "Extra Snarky" bikes please? LOL. How wonderful. This video gave me many chuckles.
My Daughter definatly needed a 14" wheel bike. because of her size and skill level I was glad that Woom makes high quality 14" wheeled bikes.
Tak!
Best bike fit video ever! Finally not a quack talking about his magic highly secret method than surely is to complicated for any mortal cyclist and therefore keeps talking in riddles without offering any clue.
My 1988 Bridgestone RB4 came with 27 inch wheels/tires. Changed to 700c immediately. Did change the brakes also.
Amazing video. I kind of want to show this to whoever wants me to help find them a bike next. 2 years ago I was offered an Opus hybrid 700c bike that needed a bit of work for a bargain I couldn't refuse given its overall decent condition.
It is 17.5" seat post tube measured your way, 19.5 to the seat clamp, Opus calls it a 20". The top tube measures 21". I measure between 5'10 and 5'11 depending on what time of day it is.
I replaced its flat bar with road/gravel drop bars and after fine tuning everything else, swapped the 100mm stem for a120mm. I love it, I feel comfortable riding it for extended periods of time and nothing hurts, it feels fast and stable and I absolutely love riding it.
Part of me wants to go get a bike fit to see if I was just lucky, or if I got it all "wrong" according to them. Seeing as I am loving life on the bike, I guess I will keep the money and enjoy my blissful ignorance.
P.s. I started occasionally watching your channel at about the same time as I found this bike, and since then helped unite 4 people with "new used" bikes that I put together for them upon request, which included test rides and help adjusting their position, there's no doubt your videos gave me a bit of a confidence boost to undertake these restorations/tune ups.
Right now I am working on a Brompton I found in the trash. 😀
I have read a book from around 30 years ago, and it dealt with this problem the easy way: Find your three areas of contact on an old fashioned bike-fitting stand and then look around for a matching bike. On the internet, there are some good graphics showing how this translates to actual bike frames. Perhaps this is a way to show walmarted parents your competence ;)
This is a classic. You nailed this! Confusing AF from a customer! So I know it's confusing for the shops. Also KEY REASON WHY buying online is NEVER going to work long term. I know because I'm now having a bike I bought online get modified by my local bike store to fit me better! Next bike is coming from the local bike shop. Fool me once
Yeah, it's just impossible to get a bike dialed in online.
I know all this but you still managed to break my will to live, absolute nonsense sizing explained exceptionally well 👌
As you stated, the best way to know if a bike fits is to try a bike out and from there measure the one what works and any new or used bike find the measurements. It kinda why online brands lay out the full measurements of their bikes.
So good, really enjoyed this video, keep them coming 👌🏻
I was hoping you'd stitch a clip of you riding that pocket bike in after your outro. An easter egg for the bikefarmer faithful.😂
The world is a better place for having you in it.
Missed oportunity to have the "rant stand" in the background as you went full unhinged on the bike size topic. ;) Having a growing kid I feel your pain.
You're funny as hell. I love watching your videos
Absolutely true. Had a 53 cm 590/37 tire sized bike that felt 2 sizes too small but the 54cm 27” vintage bike felt way closer
Walmart and other major retailers try to put numbers on them. Usually, it's wheel size that is labeled.
Walmart still sells 27 inch tires. Cheap brand but works. Order online.
Wheel sizes are a dumpster fire! Everyone should just use the ETRTO standard, the tyre seat diameter in millimeters. So 700c is 622, 27.5" or 650B is 584, and a 16" Brompton is in fact 349. There is a different 16" standard, 355 mm. ETRTO or bust! As far as the road frame sizing goes, with the sloping top tubes the seat tube length means nothing. Horizontal top tube length is the modern frame size (or stack & reach if you're nerdy).
Yeah. Customers really love learning about the about ETRTO standard when they come buy bikes!
Totally agree, before sloping top tubes the seat tube length really made sense but that all when out the window when the top tube was no longer horizontal. It's easy to move a seat up and down several inches, but you can't adjust the seat-to-handlebar distance so easily. Size the frame on the reach to the bars and you'll be golden.
😂 @@bkefrmr
That was entertaining! I am about 9 months into my bike hobby and figured out for me, 5'3" size small, is standover height, and can I get the seat low enough (or high) to reach the pedals and extend my legs without feeling all cooped up. I have acquired too many bikes as experiments to find out what do I like to ride and what works in the area where I live.
bmx frames do have there own sizing scheme, based on toptube length. junior, expert, pro, pro xl
I loved the way Cannondale made in USA used to put out geometry charts with sizes S to L , when it came to sizing they
said go to your Cannondale retailer !!
Brake like the wind Buddy !
Brilliant video. The question I’ve had for 30 years, as a curmudgeon, was answered; in the 26er ATB category, what’s the difference in frame sizes regarding wheelbase, bottom bracket height, reach, headtube angle, etc? Nothing. Proportion does not change, just seat tube height. How do I decide which size I need? Sit on it, not measure it.
Clear as mud, Houston we have a problem. 😂 you may have identified why the bike industry is suffering. Great job on a tricky subject .
My Raleigh is a 16; My Giant is a 27 inch. Both fit me and I love them both.
@ 13:53 … Are Ya With Me … LOL 😂 … Great Vid !
Also important for kids and small people: crank length and can their small fingers reach the brake levers.
This is the funniest video ever ! "It's consumer products made for you to buy things you really not need " 😂😂😂 You might shut me up but I think talking about geometry could be good. For adult bikes maybe explain reach, stack and top tube logitude. This is how I been buying bicycles for over 20 years. All fit perfectly. So true the numbers of bicycle sizes and inseams are worthless is more about geometry and understanding how you fit in the geometry. Agree bike fits are many times not worth it.
Listening to this felt even more confusing than my college calculus course, but also very relieving that even a bike mechanic also does not know what the hell is going on with sizing
Inch sizes for wheels are super duper confusing. Just go with ETRTO sizes which are rim diameter in millimeters. You can't really have the same confusion as with all the ”26 inch" wheel sizes that aren't compatible with each other.