As an engineer and self-proclaimed nerd, I'd have loved for this to be a double-blind study. Where you, the rider, didn't know what size you were riding on any given run (maybe M twice in a row without you knowing it, for example). Without being double-blind, it's *incredible* to me that your DH average was within a second between all four runs, and your jump lines within FIVE HUNDREDTHS! Even your subconscious bias (ex: small *should* feel more playful) wasn't able to change your times. That's statistically just insane to me! At least you know you're a consistent rider!
I recently purchased a 29er and requested M size because of the 5'8" height. Accidentally, they gave me 15.5" size which translates to small S. Incidentally, I like the ride better than many bikes before it on the actual size M. Thanks to your vid, it explained a lot that getting smaller frame is ok even if you are a medium size.
Alex: Another winner! Thank you! A couple of thoughts from this 74-year old MTB'er in the peanut gallery. Agree that the manufacturer suggested size charts are interesting data points, but not nearly as helpful as getting your butt in the saddle on a bike and actually riding it. With the availability of demo bikes being low right now, being able to do a test like yours or even demo two bikes for comparison is problematic. Hopefully that will change next year. I appreciated your final rating criteria: cornering, jumping, climbing, fun. I'd add descending also; but to me the most important is FUN. FUN for how you ride, where you ride, etc. Pretty subjective; but the "laugh and smile" factor, not speed at my age, is why I ride. Rule #1 = FUN!! Thanks again! :-)
Watching these videos are a great start. But nothing beats the real experience of visiting your local bike shop n try it out yourself. Night and day difference between watching n real experience.
@@ark8tct Same idea with snow ski. I have 200 cm long and hard control in mogul but really fast when straight down so I have other is 160 cm WOW big different much easy control into the mogul (much fun !!) but straight down hill is ok slow down little and feel safe :)
5'7 here! I just ordered a Nukeproof scout 275 Small(428 reach) Im in between small/med. I really hope I made a good decision on small. I'll know real soon lol
I'm grateful for all these videos, you guys kept me from buying another bike that was the wrong size. I'm 6'4" and had been riding an XL Trek and something just felt "off" it had been years since I rode a bike and just assumed it was me being rusty. Until I did all the measuring and calculations based on things I had seen in your videos. Now I'm riding a Pivot Firebird 29 in a Large and it feels amazing and its noticeable in my riding and progression how much better this bike is for me.
As a 6'3 dude, I like the skills building different bike sizes can give. My XL Stumpjumper is stable and makes me feel like driving a monster truck, as I can take on anything. And on the flipside my DJ is one size fits all, makes me feel like if Spiderman was on a bike; fast, able, and willing to fly!
There are a TON of factors to consider besides time, and you did touch on a few. But so much of it comes down to your goals on the bike. Are you racing or not, what is your riding style, what are your trails like that you spend most of your time on, do you like to jump, what is your ability level, how fast do you ride, and so much more. A smaller bike is going to be less forgiving and have a smaller "rider sweet spot". A medium will be more stable and forgiving. I'm sure you've checked out Chris Porter's thoughts (I hope), which are very interesting. His feelings are that most people are on bikes that are TOO SMALL. Did you watch Yoann Barelli ride the Grim Donut on Pinkbike? He was fastest on that bike, which is crazy long and slack.... So, takeaway is there are many things to consider, and I know Porter would never go along with Lee's RAD concept. It's too small... Peace!
I'd like to see a video of you trying these bikes out on some technical climbs to see how that affects your assessment. While I'm all for fun-sizing my bike and do plan to size down from the manufacturer chart on my next ride, most of us need to pedal our bikes on parts of our favorite trails. Flow and fun come easier on the downhill, but we sometimes need more room on the bike to turn the pedals to generate the speed needed to have fun in the rough stuff when gravity isn't pushing us along. It would be interesting to see what sort of compromises are required when you ask more of your trail bike. Maybe you'd land on a small with a longer stem, after going back and forth from the downhill/jump courses to an adventure ride trail.
I can so relate to this! I'm mostly between L and XL and I always found the smaller bike to be so much more fun! When asking in forums I'm always getting told "at your size you need to go with XL!", but I don't think anybody ever really compared sizes for him/herself... Joy of bike. Truly my favourite channel at the moment! Keep it up! 🤙🤙
Your videos on sizing were a real revelation to me. I ride an old school geometry XC rigid rig and I've always sucked at wheelies, manuals, bunnyhops, jumps and basically everything that involves one or two wheels in the air. Even on previous bikes (all kinds of them) these techniques were kind of impossible for me, although I'm 38 years old and I ride since my teenage years. Blue, black trails, XC racing - not the fastest guy out there, but doing fine. Wheelies and manuals - nope, not happening :) And since I'm an addicted follower of Joy of Bike since the beginning I thought "Well, maybe you are riding the wrong size, old man!" I'm 184 cm tall, which means 6.04" (real, lol) which puts me in the L category by all manufacturers' standards and is what I actually ride. So I measured my RAD number by the guidelines in your video with Lee (shoulders out, wrists down, look far ahead etc.) and it came out 88 cm. And guess what? The frame I ride right now is... RAD minus squared (84 cm) :) Which convinced me once again that I should NOT blame the bike for being a disaster at wheelies and manuals and just go on with my lifе, accepting this truth. Keep up the good work, guys. This is one of the best MTB channels out there by a mile. Greetings from Bulgaria :)
It's not your bike size, it's the TYPE of bike mate. Get rid of that XC bike, and get a Trail bike. Old XC bikes are not meant to do those things you're talking about.
I have a large 29r and checking my knuckle, I’m RAD+ by 2cm. So I lowered the bars and going to try it. A quick road test gave me the ability to wheels and ride it out some ( I have never done that before lowering my bar stack height. What’s amazing, is that Without even knowing this great info a year ago, I checked my grasp angle and realized I needed swept back bars. That change lined up my grasp angle better and also swept the 780mm wide bars back slightly which gave me relief from numbness and better control. Keep the great content coming brother and thanks
I'm 5'7 but had to go large due to pandemic shortages... And I actually love having a bigger bike. It just feels solid and stable when I'm bombing the limits of my abilities. Dartmoor Hornet.
I wonder if the medium felt faster because maybe you had less control of it than the small? The more control you feel tames the feeling/excitement of speed. Great video!
Im 5’7”. I just put money down on a Pivot trail 429. Dealer told me I’m definitely a medium. After doing a lot of research including this video, it seams that I should be on a small
I'm between 5'7 and 5'8 and on the size chart I was in between a Small and a Medium. I chose the Small. I eventually fitted a slightly longer stem and I am happy with the fit now. I don't regret having chosen the Small at all. 27.5 by the way, not 29'er.
I did something similar in 2017. I'm 5'7 and tried a Trek Remedy 17.5 reach 433 and an 18.5 reach 449 and bought the smaller 17.5 and love the bike and it was the right choice for me. However....... In 2019 I had a shot of a Mondraker Foxy size medium, reach 470 and it was soooo good I had to buy one . I'm loving both, but the Mondraker is my first choice. So.... Don't get hung up on numbers, just ride it , if you like it buy it..... there...... P.S old guys like smaller bikes so the can ride off the back like the good old days....
Not surprised by the similar times. Learned from racing motorcycles guys were always disappointed when jumping on a bigger more horsepower motorcycle their lap times stayed the same. Different bike but same brain.
I was surprised to see that elapsed time was your primary criterion. I guess I don't understand the obsession that MTBers have with speed. OTOH, I am obsessed with fun. That would have been my primary - and only - criterion. I wish MTB rentals weren't so expensive. If I want to try two sizes of 5 different bikes, it will cost me $1400!
Legend. I'm on the verge of a S (27.5) canyon stoic size range and the M has the 29s. I've been a complete mess on what one to buy. It was the fun tick for the small frame that's sealed the deal.
I have and I can. Before I tried different stem lengths, I did not believe that 5 mm would make a noticeable difference, but it does. Lots of cheap stems on Amazon if you want to test for yourself. I have one more length to test and then I'll be giving my test stems to the local bike club so other people can try different length stems.
@@devinbyrnes8058 I can't tell the difference between an $8 stem and a $60 stem. There may be a matter of a few grams, but I'm not a weight weenie. I don't have a lot of riding time on any one cheap stem, so I can't vouch for strength/durability. I suppose that I trust well-known MTB component brands more than cheapies in that regard, but I have no evidence to support that supposition. My strategy is to test out stem lengths with the second-cheapest available on Amazon, and when I find the one that works best for me, I'll replace it with an economy model from a well-known brand, purchased from a LBS or a bike-specific web retailer.
Would have been cool to make this a double blind randomized trial to minimize bias:) then get feedback knowing what you were riding. Loved this bike test. Rad!!
I think this is a much more balanced approach and viewpoint than your other videos. “The numbers that work for you”. As opposed to the viewpoint that all manufacturers are leading riders astray and sizing is completely incorrect. I hope you enjoy the bike and good luck raising money.
To me, the best innovations are simple and often obvious. I expect the big boys of RUclips, AND perhaps the industry will be playing catch up with you on this one. Kudos and thank you!
I am 5'10 so right in the middle as well. I started riding in the late 80s and always went with a 16.5 or 17 frame size. I ride super twisty east coast single track and have always felt like the smaller frame size was the best choice for fit under those conditions. I have recently returned to mtb and lucked up on a Jamis hardtail. It is listed as a 15" frame size but feels massive compared to my old Bridgestone MB3. I would not want any bigger. Keep posting! I learn something new every time I watch.
Great video - I wish I saw this before I bought my Revel Rascal. I'm 6'7" (201cm) and my body rad measurement is 37". I bought an XL Rascal after a very short demo ride. I relied too much on the size charts - they claim an XL will fit riders up to 6'7". This is far from truth. Even with stem and bar adjustments I cannot get the stack/reach measurements where needed.
Really awesome test. I realized after riding M for 7 years that a S is actually what I need to reach that Stoke factor (despite everyone and the bike shop recommended my going for M). Easier to hop, pop and wheelie for me. Most of all more fun! Love your channel and the totally different vibes you bring. Cheers from a 53 year old mountain biking VC ;)!
Haha...according to this logic, I'd only be able to ride a kids 24 or 26 bike. It ultimately cones down to what trails you ride and how comfortable you are on the bike. I'm 5ft with 26.5in inseam. I am by far more comfy on my S/M Orbea emtb than my XS Pivot regular mtb. I'm much faster and confident on my bigger emtb.
Brilliant video! I'm 5'10" and a fraction. With Lee McCormack's help, I went from a size L Banshee to a size XS Pole Taival and I LOVE it! I think you are right, Alex, a smaller frame that fits close to your RAD number is a playful bike. Period!
for dramatic reasos i would like to say sth like 'i didnt know, that i needed your channel so bad' or sth like this, but i already knew thtat i was pretty much done with most of the other popular youtube mtb channels. but anyways i am super happy to have discovered your channel - I LOVE IT! ^^
You guys are doing one helluva job on the channel. It could not come at a more "fitting" time for me as I dump and take a loss on a frame that is way too long for me yet I am right in the middle on their size chart. Keep up the good work!
I honestly didn't know if you guys actually rode trails. I started thinking about it and its the first time I can remember seeing you guys record on a actual trail vs a more park or pump track
Great video.. I'm 5'6" and have always road M frames. Purchase a Yeti SB130 LR Medium and didn't like it at all, felt huge and I was just along for the ride. Went to my current bike Revel Rascal in a small and love it..
The bike you showed yourself sitting on at 2:35, you look way too big for that bike 😂 can't wait to see what your conclusion is! Definitely having trouble determining what size to get Xtrada 7. Thought I would get medium, but looking at all the geo specs, I'm now thinking I need the large. I won't be doing much trail, definitely no jumps, just long distance off road exploring in Wyoming. Also, gravel roads. Lots of hills, up and down. Lots of wind. I'm 5' 10", shorter arms/legs with 30" inseam. Any feedback from anyone way more knowledgeable than myself would be great! Haven't owned a bike in over 20 years.
This has been extremely helpful to me, especially the reach/RAD data. There is one aspect of bit fit that you have not addressed which is an issue for us taller/longer legged riders (6'3"/36" inseam). By your formula, my max bar width is 838mm, my ideal reach is 47.7 cm. I measured my RAD and it came to approx 82.55cm. What this showed was that despite my height/inseam, the new Trek sizing of recommended XL would never fit me properly in their RAIL eMTB (65 yrs old, need ride duration more than intensity of effort). But the L frame seems to fit these measurements well. However, what is missing is the impact of the seat/pedal distance when adjusted to give the most effective/effecient stroke. A too short distance robs power, increases joint/muscle strain, pain, and the potential for injury. Getting it 'right' makes the ride perfect from leg comfort/stress/pain perspective. The downside is that, for me, this results in a relatively high seat position when the post is full up / adjusted for my fit. This shifts/puts much of my weight constantly on my hands which gets uncomfortable/painful pretty quickly. I've been working through an evolution of 'parts' trying to address this. I just changed out the stock Bontrager stem (70mm) for a PNW Ranger v3 stem with 30m reach and changed out the handlebars from the relatively flat stock to the PNW Ranger bar v3 with 30mm of rise. I haven't had a chance for a test ride yet, but my 'sit' test seems to show that it will make at least some difference. Some guidance/examples on how to approach this type of fit issue would be helpful with some demo of how some of these changes (bar rise/stem length, etc) can effect the weight shift issue.
Great way to determine what bike you enjoy more. I like that you were able to ride the bikes back to back and not just one size for a week or two and then switch parts over to the other size. Thank you Alex for the video. 👍
Great comparo! I’ve just this week had a new experience. I’m 5’10.5” (179cm). I’ve a positive ape index. My calculated reach is 447mm. I was riding a Giant Trance X (large, reach around 480mm), after your vids and some measurements, I rode a friends medium hard tail and it felt so agile and fun. So I purchase the exact same Trance X in a medium, reach of 455mm. Still just a tad over, but…! The two bikes I now have are like chalk and cheese, completely different to ride but identical in spec and setup. Unbelievable how I have to re-learn this bike all over again and completely change my techniques, for the better! Awesome!!!
This trend is frustrating, and I'm guilty of it, having bought a Large with a 460 reach, and another large with a 475 reach, yet I'm only 5'9" as well, and I don't think I have long arms. Lee's RAD test is like +80 for me, ha. I rode my buddies bike last week that is in the 450 range, and it did rotate better, but there is a certain speed where you lose stability, it's not a huge difference, but wouldn't it be cool if geo was more dynamic and you could lengthen your chainstays at speed, and shorten them for corners. I honestly still ride "just fine" on the longer bikes, but when I pick whatevers next, I'm curious to size down again and see how I like it. (or maybe I can win that medium :)
I enjoyed this video. I'm almost 71 yo. I have been riding a medium Giant 29er hard tail for a couple of years. I'm 5'- 9". I love the bike, but recently bought a small Talon 2 hard tail with 27.5" wheels. I haven't been on the trail yet. Planning to go tomorrow. Hoping for that playful ride with more line choices.
You stole my joy, I was planning on winning the small Rascal. haha. Great content as always. As a 50yo recently returned to MTB, these videos have been great and inspirational. You and Lee keep up the great content.
I love that you ran this comparison. As someone living in an area with as much uphill pedalling as downhill playing (distance, but time??? 4:1!!) I would have loved more commentary and analysis on the pedalling aspects/difference/compromises of small vs medium to help understand this bike sozing conundrum the bike manufactures are trending these days. Thanks for another great video.
It would be interesting 🤔 short answer the longer bike feels better but there are no power advantages. So I’m guessing the times will be the same. Now if you’re racing and aerodynamics come into play more reach will be a good thing.
Thanks Alex. I was thinking as much about comfort and control as anything. I recall you mentioned that the cockpit was very snug, so I wonder how this plays out in tight, slow spots like switchbacks and such.
Totally agree with you! They try to sell us longer bikes because they're faster etc. But longer bikes won't make you a better rider. Most people, to get faster, just need good practice especially in turns, weight balance, hip hinge, etc. If you're not able to handle a small sized bike, it's only more complicated with a longer reach. I had a SB150 in M for 176cm, I downsized for a Megatower in M while SC recommends a Large for me. And it feels so much better. There's only 15 or 20mm of difference, but now I can play with the bike instead of being just a bored passenger on it... Maybe bikes were too small a decade ago, but right now, they are all too long.
I'm at 5'3" and riding M size hardtail bike...Where else I should be riding S size bike. I crash few courses specifically going downhill curve and always thinking maybe it's because I'm a newbie... But this video explains it why... Maneuvering a bigger bike needs a little more technical. On the other hand, it's true tho going uphill and riding on light gravel is really fast and fun. Maybe I need to sell off my M size bike and do a bit saving to get another S size. As of now I just ride what I have... Great Video and explanation...
I'm 5' 11" about bought a Whyte T130 2018 in Large as I was between sizes ( also thought I was 6' back then ) I always felt like I was being pull too far forwards when on steep tech so swapped the 50mm stem to 35mm which is a little better. I rode a friends 2018 G170 in Small the other week and despite being super plush with the extra travel was really agile, poppy and fun compared to mine. Also not a fan of the DHF vague zone and found for my trail bike keeping the tyres as light duty as possible for the terrain had really helped widen the speed fun zone and keep it in the sweet spot longer. Assegai's kill it with the extra weight and grip so getting it there and staying there is super hard, I now run Dissector Terra front Rekon DC rear for the dry conditions and I'm faster nearly everywhere than I was on DHF/DHR. The Dissector is a seriously underrated front tyre for trail bikes.
@@ark8tct I didn't get to try the 130 on a demo day but did the 160 in large, too much bike for me and I wasn't good enough to know what size I'd need regardless. I'd go medium next time.
@@JoyOfBike No not weird, I'm the same. My DHR goes on the front when it gets wet because I can't lean a DHF and trust it. DHR center knobs are wide enough to act like a transition zone. See if you can get your hands on a Dissector for that Rascal, it is for short travel trails bikes what the Assegai is for enduro and DH. Likewise I consider the Rekon a trail DHR
I recently replaced the DHF on the front of both my HT and FS. So happy I did that. The tire required me to be more aggressive than I can be. Now I'm running Bontrager XR4's and I like them much better. I also just got a Speccy Ground Control to replace on the rear of my FS (because the DHR2 was worn).
my bike came default from factory with assegai front and dissector rear. I don't complain, but have nothing to compare with, I trust company's choice though, doubt they'd randomly just throw whatever on it.
Great vid, as always! Your comments about the DHF and precisely why I opted for the Assegai. I didn't necessarily NEED the grippiest tire in the world, but I don't like the "no mans land" between the center and outer treads that most tires have. At "mid lean" those tires aren't confidence-inspiring. The Assegai bridges that gap nicely and I've been really impressed with it. Consistent grip from center to edge! Personally, I don't really notice it rolling much slower, either. Might be worth considering?
This is great. I bought a large Polygon based on the sizing recommendations (I'm 5'11), but am wishing I'd gotten a medium. Their recommendations were that if you have longer arms, go Large, while longer arms for RAD mean go shorter. Oh well, I'll get it on the next bike!
I also have long arms for my height. 2.5 x height called for a 495 reach for me and i went with 500 for DH and 510 for trail. both bikes feel great. I feel like my bikes fit my torso length (hip to shoulder distance) and my arms are just there for range of motion on drops and rollers. So maybe longer arms don't necessarily call for longer reach. Try a shorter stem before you get another bike right?
@@miguelfragoso7023 It's the Premier 4. It was good for getting my feet wet in mountain biking, but for this year I decided to upgrade to a Giant Trance 29" (in Medium).
Awesome! This (along with your other RAD fitting vids) just locked in my choice for my next enduro bike. I'm 172cm and am picking a small (436mm reach) over a medium (457mm reach). The manufacturer recommends the medium but the numbers just seem long for my height. All because of the qualitative stuff...I couldn't care less about 1-2 seconds on a lap. Great post here. Thanks.
I'm your same height exactly and I got a size Small frame MTB (Manufacturer suggests either S or M). I felt a little crammed on it and I got a slightly longer stem. That solved it and I'm now very happy with the fit. What size did you get and how do you like it?
@@radiocontrolled9181 I got a small Forbidden Dreadnought (436mm reach). I love the fit! I posted my first impression video on my channel (I Do Blues). Search "Forbidden Dreadnought vs The North Shore: Trial by Jank".
This is super helpful, I recently bought 2 bikes, a small bike (XS frame, 24 inch wheels) meant for kids and a medium 29er which is said to be the right size for me but feels way too big. I'm 167cm (5ft 5inch) tall and I'm pretty sure a small frame is better for me. It's a pitty I have to go through so many bikes to figure out the right size.
If you're 5'5 tall it doesn't take much thought to figure out that a medium size 29'er is waaayyy too big for you. I'd say try a small frame 27.5. Good luck!
Another enlightening video. Real interesting. At 5’11” I swallowed the hype and got a L Revel Rail. Maybe should’ve sought out a M. 🤔. I can maybe lose 20mm from the stem but I guess that won’t have quite the same effect, as it’s wheelbase that’s determining the difference in your case.
There's more to it than just numbers. And a LOT of personal preference. You might want a longer bike if you ride a lot of park or steep terrain. A shorter bike is less forgiving of imperfect riding position on g outs and landing jumps. Of course a longer bike is going to be less nimble on tight trails.
Agree with you on the medium. All the number times show small but your feels said it was the medium that was fastest in many situations. That tells me the medium was the bike with the feels even though the small had the quicker numbers. It would be interesting to know what stems were used and what bars, were they 20, 25, 30mm heights, this will shorten reach on them too. Lee even says the fork travel increase will shorten reach as well but these both seemed to have the same travel. Good work on this video.
I'm a DHR 2 front and rear kind of guy, but I recently tried the Assegai up front on my full sus. Definitely an Assegai guy now! Corners like no other!
I think you’ve touched on a critical point there about bike reviews. What one rider would call nimble and playful in a given size, a smaller rider on the same size may call it a sled. Lee’s RAD concept makes it easier to choose a size, for me I need to adjust the mindset that now I won’t always buy a L frame, as I’m more suited to medium with modern geo. I like Specialized’s concept of frame sizing: match it to your riding style rather than body dimensions. All very interesting stuff. Another great video!
Great video! This comaprison would have been even more interesting if he rode the other manufacturer recommended size (Large) on top of these 2 to see how the current sizing trend would have held up against the smaller bikes. But hey I quess I can't have it all.
I love these videos.. Completely changed the way I set up my bike! Not only, but I have realized that I like smaller frames and mullet style geo. Next bike I buy will be a medium.
Watch all your work,never commented before,you and Lee do such a GREAT JOB,still riding in the mountains at 63,not your average Huckleberry Hound, I've learned from you trmembous amounts of life and bike skills,but I just love the NEWTON- METERS,ISH,,,,USE IT ALL THE TIME,,,,,
I too am on the cusp in regards to size. I wish I would have saw this video prior to buying my medium carbon frame. Unfortunately until I find a time machine, I'm stuck with the medium. There is no way my boss (aka wife) would allow me to buy another frame for the foreseeable future. I am now using RAD to make the necessary adjustment to dial in my fit. I thoroughly enjoy your videos. You and Lee compliment each other with your skills and knowledge.
This has literally been the most helpful video series that I have watched … I’m new to mtb with a bmx background and couldn’t figure out why all of the bikes that were recommended to me at 6ft tall were so long and cumbersome
As a new full suspension rider size was confusing ,at 6’1 also stuck in the middle.watching your sizing videos changed the balance an feel of being center ,thanks for your help.rad saved me from making a x large mistake .
Manufactures suggestion is basic sizing guides, so much adjustment can be done with stem, handle bars wight and rake, even your seat can move alittle for the finer adjustments. I feel adjustable wheel base length would be far stronger value for most people. Some riders do better on a more stable longer wheel base and other riders might need less, thats a whole new bike, Adjustable wheel base (just like motorbikes) opens a whole other level of riding for some people. Some people dont care as long as its close enough.
this is unrelated to rig size but I'm curious about steps you take to avoid biker's elbow. I ride daily so the pain never really fully leaves.. it seems to be exacerbated by any movement involving pulling back sharply on the bars (which is pretty much everything! hops, jumps, wheelies, manuals). a video or short with some practical tips on how to prevent or treat this would be huge. anything to keep me outside on two wheels a little longer.. love the channel! you break things down in a way that's so easy to consume and apply. appreciate what you do big time
That's not too surprising of a result. The issue is the bikes are getting longer from the same measurement (bb to ht) but the seat angle is going forward also (more upright). So the reach seems to be getting longer on paper but it may not actually be based on the seat tube angle. I'm 5'10" and just picked up a medium Specialized Epic Evo and could be happier for my trails. I'm on mostly tight single track and need more maneuverability. I could see myself on the longer bike if I rode trails like you show here. Of course, my pick opposes internet wisdom and I should feel cramped and awful but really it comes down to the trails you ride and what you arenlooking to get out of it. You like playful so I expected you'd like the smaller bike. Some who just bombs down those trails to get from a to b might like the more stable feel. Anyway, great content again. I was considering the Revel but with Covid and availability I had to get what I could, not that I regret my choice, the EE is awesome for my trails and conditions.
Super cool stuff. I'm 6'5" so it's usually XL size and hope it works because the XL is usually too small by the numbers but I get used to whatever I have and have joy because I am riding my bike. If I was a sponsored racer I could get the exact bike for my size but I'm not. I have 1 bike and it has to work for everything I do so, I'm happy with what I have. I got my bike from Fezzari and they did a really good job customizing it to the measurements I sent them. After your R.A.D. video I figured out my R.A.D. and checked what my bike was and it was really close, stock from Fezzari.
i am 6'2" and i agree.. smaller is more fun... after riding a large everyday to school and work, i was looking at xl bikes for comfort... but now with 29ers those big wheels help so no need to have larger frame but every maker has dif sizing really gotta ride it and be able to at least adjust the seat... that is a big pain at some of these stores nowadays... they have to get pedals, tools to adjust seat if no dropper, your id, blah blah blah... shopping for a decent bike is a lot more work nowadays. :) i
Thanks for the video! I just purchased a new 2021 small Rocky Mountain Altitude A50. The shop guy tried to talk me out of the small 😂. I’m almost 5’8” 168lbs. My bike of 8 years is a Medium 2013 Rocky Mountain Altitude 730, well maintained and upgraded over the years. (RAD adjusted, which made it way more fun) The 2013 medium is the same size as the new small. The shop guy didn’t believe me till I brought my old bike 🚴 in and put it side by side. He was cool, but, was really skeptical of my size choice. (Based on my RAD). I couldn’t be happier! Thanks 🙏🏽 Namastoke
Joy Of Bike channel is my mtb physic+formula+logic GURU.hope this channel came grew up every day and hope one day i can be master for all what you guys teach....keep it up guru 💪💪💪💪 by the way im your student from malaysia 🇲🇾🙋🏻♂️
Really great video. As I'm watching I am thinking....yeah, he's going with the small. On one of the downhill runs you said the small was so much fun. "The Joy Factor" wins out. (there...coined a new term)
I’m a size down from the manufacture recommendation and your observation about the ability to change lines quick is spot on. I’ve found that bot up and down if a line isn’t working, I can almost pick up the bike and place it on a new line. I always thought this was due to weight of the bike but size makes sense.
Great video. I'm always in-between a med and large, but I buy the medium as I feel more comfortable and at home on them. Looking forward to the give away
I broke my collarbone and scapula in a motorcycle crash decades ago, my right arm is lower to the ground (standing) and wider from my body centerline. My RAD on right is 77 mm , my RAD on left is 80 mm, a difference of 3 mm or about 1.25". I ride mostly for fitness (not jumping or tricks) and am 65, just retired, but still want a good fitting bike. Should I not worry about this discrepancy or should I split difference? Thanks for the great and timely info, just found your channel and like it a lot! I'm just over 5' 9", or 176cm. When I bought my current MT Bike, Gary Fisher hardtail in 1999, the advice was always go smaller. But recently I always see go larger if you are between sizes. My background is more road than MTB, but I want to get off the road with more cars and distracted drivers. Plus MTB is more fun! Next bike is full suspension e-MTB.
Alex, i've been wondering the same thing about sizing as you have, and i think just as you did, the best thing is to probably ride them back to back. I'm 5'7" and ride a medium Giant Trance 29er, which is on the low end of a medium. I feel really comfortable on the bike, but i've often felt i should have a smaller one. I usually find it pretty difficult to pop the front wheel, whether it's to do wheelies or just to get over an obstacle, and i feel going to a small might fix that. Planning on testing both for my next bike.
Great work and info guys! Thanks for sharing that! What would also be interesting is to set up both bikes to have the same RAD and then test. What do you think? Nama-stoke 🙏🤙 Robert
Great video Alex and was good to hear your comments as you rode if you have the time or interest it would be cool to hear how each would go with a longer and shorter stem (ie. go shorter on the medium and longer on the small). That would potentially give them the same RAD but with different wheelbase length and slightly different rider CoG fore and aft.
Just wanted to let you know how great your content is. I finally found a bought a medium Specialized Chisel and much of my decision was due to your videos and tips. Now I’m wanting to get the manual down. I know you stepped back to get centered and work on what matters most- you. You guys are great. Look forward to any activity on your channel.
Having said it'd be fun to see the channel out on the trail, want to confirm that it is fun. Very. And really nice camera work. One quibble, we are riding right along with you. But the banner (indicating which bike your on) at the top of screen is downtrail right where we are trying to look. Scary! Bob (husband of Amy)
Love the video's, they are much more descriptive and helpful then things like GMBN. What would be awesome, would be some E-MTB video's. The transition from "dinosaur" bike to E-MTB isn't what people think it is.. Another, more realistic and affordable suggestion, is a video to help people like me who have ridden clipped in for 20 years, move to flats. Personally for me this is more a e-mtb focus, as I dont need clips for power, but riding unclipped feels so wrong now.... Everyone keeps saying that new mtb shoes and pedals there is no slippage, but some tips would be grouse.
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As an engineer and self-proclaimed nerd, I'd have loved for this to be a double-blind study. Where you, the rider, didn't know what size you were riding on any given run (maybe M twice in a row without you knowing it, for example).
Without being double-blind, it's *incredible* to me that your DH average was within a second between all four runs, and your jump lines within FIVE HUNDREDTHS! Even your subconscious bias (ex: small *should* feel more playful) wasn't able to change your times. That's statistically just insane to me! At least you know you're a consistent rider!
This is the best MTB channel on youtube, hands down.
Namastoke!!!
Especially for us, ummm, more mature guys that still ride.
Absolutely !
I recently purchased a 29er and requested M size because of the 5'8" height. Accidentally, they gave me 15.5" size which translates to small S. Incidentally, I like the ride better than many bikes before it on the actual size M. Thanks to your vid, it explained a lot that getting smaller frame is ok even if you are a medium size.
Alex: Another winner! Thank you!
A couple of thoughts from this 74-year old MTB'er in the peanut gallery.
Agree that the manufacturer suggested size charts are interesting data points, but not nearly as helpful as getting your butt in the saddle on a bike and actually riding it.
With the availability of demo bikes being low right now, being able to do a test like yours or even demo two bikes for comparison is problematic. Hopefully that will change next year.
I appreciated your final rating criteria: cornering, jumping, climbing, fun. I'd add descending also; but to me the most important is FUN. FUN for how you ride, where you ride, etc. Pretty subjective; but the "laugh and smile" factor, not speed at my age, is why I ride.
Rule #1 = FUN!! Thanks again! :-)
Awesome video. next time my mate says I'm sh*t at cornering I've got a new excuse up my sleeve. "well clearly my bike is too big!"
Funny. And his mouth is WAAAY too big!!! 😃
Just a shout out, thank you for these videos. As a newbie over 40 your content is gold. Please keep them coming.
Watching these videos are a great start. But nothing beats the real experience of visiting your local bike shop n try it out yourself. Night and day difference between watching n real experience.
I'm a total nube in this sport and this channel has taught me so much and answered so many questions I was afraid to ask.
At 5’6” and always between a small and medium frame, this is pure gold, thanks!
@@ark8tct Same idea with snow ski. I have 200 cm long and hard control in mogul but really fast when straight down so I have other is 160 cm WOW big different much easy control into the mogul (much fun !!) but straight down hill is ok slow down little and feel safe :)
@@jamestorgerson4526 honestly this is a great comparison
Same I ride a Med Currently .... My Next Bike Will Be A SM RM BC Edition
5'6'' rider here too
5'7 here! I just ordered a Nukeproof scout 275 Small(428 reach) Im in between small/med. I really hope I made a good decision on small. I'll know real soon lol
I'm grateful for all these videos, you guys kept me from buying another bike that was the wrong size. I'm 6'4" and had been riding an XL Trek and something just felt "off" it had been years since I rode a bike and just assumed it was me being rusty. Until I did all the measuring and calculations based on things I had seen in your videos. Now I'm riding a Pivot Firebird 29 in a Large and it feels amazing and its noticeable in my riding and progression how much better this bike is for me.
It's crazy to me that you can feel the difference so much. Thanks for putting this together. You guys are truly making a difference in so many ways...
As a 6'3 dude, I like the skills building different bike sizes can give. My XL Stumpjumper is stable and makes me feel like driving a monster truck, as I can take on anything. And on the flipside my DJ is one size fits all, makes me feel like if Spiderman was on a bike; fast, able, and willing to fly!
There are a TON of factors to consider besides time, and you did touch on a few. But so much of it comes down to your goals on the bike. Are you racing or not, what is your riding style, what are your trails like that you spend most of your time on, do you like to jump, what is your ability level, how fast do you ride, and so much more. A smaller bike is going to be less forgiving and have a smaller "rider sweet spot". A medium will be more stable and forgiving. I'm sure you've checked out Chris Porter's thoughts (I hope), which are very interesting. His feelings are that most people are on bikes that are TOO SMALL. Did you watch Yoann Barelli ride the Grim Donut on Pinkbike? He was fastest on that bike, which is crazy long and slack.... So, takeaway is there are many things to consider, and I know Porter would never go along with Lee's RAD concept. It's too small... Peace!
A priceless video for all joy riders.
Joy is not just about speed, it's about the whole riding experience.
Once again, I salute you sir.
I'd like to see a video of you trying these bikes out on some technical climbs to see how that affects your assessment. While I'm all for fun-sizing my bike and do plan to size down from the manufacturer chart on my next ride, most of us need to pedal our bikes on parts of our favorite trails. Flow and fun come easier on the downhill, but we sometimes need more room on the bike to turn the pedals to generate the speed needed to have fun in the rough stuff when gravity isn't pushing us along. It would be interesting to see what sort of compromises are required when you ask more of your trail bike. Maybe you'd land on a small with a longer stem, after going back and forth from the downhill/jump courses to an adventure ride trail.
I can so relate to this! I'm mostly between L and XL and I always found the smaller bike to be so much more fun! When asking in forums I'm always getting told "at your size you need to go with XL!", but I don't think anybody ever really compared sizes for him/herself...
Joy of bike. Truly my favourite channel at the moment! Keep it up! 🤙🤙
Just out of curiosity, how tall are you in cm? i think I'm in the same boat as you!
@@JakeJonesx 189. 🙂
Same man, iam 188cm always pick L for trail bike 👍
Your videos on sizing were a real revelation to me. I ride an old school geometry XC rigid rig and I've always sucked at wheelies, manuals, bunnyhops, jumps and basically everything that involves one or two wheels in the air. Even on previous bikes (all kinds of them) these techniques were kind of impossible for me, although I'm 38 years old and I ride since my teenage years. Blue, black trails, XC racing - not the fastest guy out there, but doing fine. Wheelies and manuals - nope, not happening :) And since I'm an addicted follower of Joy of Bike since the beginning I thought "Well, maybe you are riding the wrong size, old man!" I'm 184 cm tall, which means 6.04" (real, lol) which puts me in the L category by all manufacturers' standards and is what I actually ride. So I measured my RAD number by the guidelines in your video with Lee (shoulders out, wrists down, look far ahead etc.) and it came out 88 cm. And guess what? The frame I ride right now is... RAD minus squared (84 cm) :) Which convinced me once again that I should NOT blame the bike for being a disaster at wheelies and manuals and just go on with my lifе, accepting this truth.
Keep up the good work, guys. This is one of the best MTB channels out there by a mile. Greetings from Bulgaria :)
It's not your bike size, it's the TYPE of bike mate. Get rid of that XC bike, and get a Trail bike. Old XC bikes are not meant to do those things you're talking about.
I have a large 29r and checking my knuckle, I’m RAD+ by 2cm. So I lowered the bars and going to try it. A quick road test gave me the ability to wheels and ride it out some ( I have never done that before lowering my bar stack height. What’s amazing, is that Without even knowing this great info a year ago, I checked my grasp angle and realized I needed swept back bars. That change lined up my grasp angle better and also swept the 780mm wide bars back slightly which gave me relief from numbness and better control. Keep the great content coming brother and thanks
I'm 5'7 but had to go large due to pandemic shortages... And I actually love having a bigger bike. It just feels solid and stable when I'm bombing the limits of my abilities. Dartmoor Hornet.
how are the bunny hops/manuals going?
I wonder if the medium felt faster because maybe you had less control of it than the small? The more control you feel tames the feeling/excitement of speed. Great video!
No matter what size, as long as you fit your bike to your rad. Its good.!
Im 5’7”. I just put money down on a Pivot trail 429. Dealer told me I’m definitely a medium. After doing a lot of research including this video, it seams that I should be on a small
I'm between 5'7 and 5'8 and on the size chart I was in between a Small and a Medium. I chose the Small. I eventually fitted a slightly longer stem and I am happy with the fit now. I don't regret having chosen the Small at all. 27.5 by the way, not 29'er.
@@radiocontrolled9181
I ended up getting a medium. I shortened up the stem. Loving the bike but I’m gonna switch to 27.5’s. Not liking the 29’s really
@@troyesch6203 For our height 27.5 makes most sense.
Im almost 5'5 but i used medium in my 27.5 frame mullet 😊
Greetings from Philippines
I did something similar in 2017. I'm 5'7 and tried a Trek Remedy 17.5 reach 433 and an 18.5 reach 449 and bought the smaller 17.5 and love the bike and it was the right choice for me.
However.......
In 2019 I had a shot of a Mondraker Foxy size medium, reach 470 and it was soooo good I had to buy one .
I'm loving both, but the Mondraker is my first choice.
So....
Don't get hung up on numbers, just ride it , if you like it buy it..... there......
P.S old guys like smaller bikes so the can ride off the back like the good old days....
Ah thx, I getting a YT jeffsy Size L with a reach of 470. I'm 5.74 isch.
I started sweating seeying this video 😆
Not surprised by the similar times. Learned from racing motorcycles guys were always disappointed when jumping on a bigger more horsepower motorcycle their lap times stayed the same. Different bike but same brain.
I was surprised to see that elapsed time was your primary criterion. I guess I don't understand the obsession that MTBers have with speed. OTOH, I am obsessed with fun. That would have been my primary - and only - criterion. I wish MTB rentals weren't so expensive. If I want to try two sizes of 5 different bikes, it will cost me $1400!
Legend. I'm on the verge of a S (27.5) canyon stoic size range and the M has the 29s. I've been a complete mess on what one to buy. It was the fun tick for the small frame that's sealed the deal.
Great eye-opening video, thanks! You should also try testing a few different stem lengths to see if you can feel a difference.
I have and I can. Before I tried different stem lengths, I did not believe that 5 mm would make a noticeable difference, but it does. Lots of cheap stems on Amazon if you want to test for yourself. I have one more length to test and then I'll be giving my test stems to the local bike club so other people can try different length stems.
@@gatoryak7332 do you have some recommendations on good cheap stems?
@@devinbyrnes8058 I can't tell the difference between an $8 stem and a $60 stem. There may be a matter of a few grams, but I'm not a weight weenie. I don't have a lot of riding time on any one cheap stem, so I can't vouch for strength/durability. I suppose that I trust well-known MTB component brands more than cheapies in that regard, but I have no evidence to support that supposition. My strategy is to test out stem lengths with the second-cheapest available on Amazon, and when I find the one that works best for me, I'll replace it with an economy model from a well-known brand, purchased from a LBS or a bike-specific web retailer.
Would have been cool to make this a double blind randomized trial to minimize bias:) then get feedback knowing what you were riding. Loved this bike test. Rad!!
I think this is a much more balanced approach and viewpoint than your other videos. “The numbers that work for you”. As opposed to the viewpoint that all manufacturers are leading riders astray and sizing is completely incorrect. I hope you enjoy the bike and good luck raising money.
To me, the best innovations are simple and often obvious. I expect the big boys of RUclips, AND perhaps the industry will be playing catch up with you on this one. Kudos and thank you!
I am 5'10 so right in the middle as well. I started riding in the late 80s and always went with a 16.5 or 17 frame size. I ride super twisty east coast single track and have always felt like the smaller frame size was the best choice for fit under those conditions. I have recently returned to mtb and lucked up on a Jamis hardtail. It is listed as a 15" frame size but feels massive compared to my old Bridgestone MB3. I would not want any bigger. Keep posting! I learn something new every time I watch.
i'm small guy only almost 5'5 height i prefer small i try medium i feel my body stretch
in your height you are good in medium or large
Great video - I wish I saw this before I bought my Revel Rascal. I'm 6'7" (201cm) and my body rad measurement is 37". I bought an XL Rascal after a very short demo ride. I relied too much on the size charts - they claim an XL will fit riders up to 6'7". This is far from truth. Even with stem and bar adjustments I cannot get the stack/reach measurements where needed.
Really awesome test. I realized after riding M for 7 years that a S is actually what I need to reach that Stoke factor (despite everyone and the bike shop recommended my going for M). Easier to hop, pop and wheelie for me. Most of all more fun! Love your channel and the totally different vibes you bring. Cheers from a 53 year old mountain biking VC ;)!
This is one of the most useful reviews that I've seen. It is nice to see this test and the results as I'm a rider that has to pick between 2 sizes.
Haha...according to this logic, I'd only be able to ride a kids 24 or 26 bike. It ultimately cones down to what trails you ride and how comfortable you are on the bike. I'm 5ft with 26.5in inseam. I am by far more comfy on my S/M Orbea emtb than my XS Pivot regular mtb. I'm much faster and confident on my bigger emtb.
Brilliant video! I'm 5'10" and a fraction. With Lee McCormack's help, I went from a size L Banshee to a size XS Pole Taival and I LOVE it! I think you are right, Alex, a smaller frame that fits close to your RAD number is a playful bike. Period!
You serious? 😂
@@miguelfragoso7023 yes completely serious.
@@miguelfragoso7023 yes
for dramatic reasos i would like to say sth like 'i didnt know, that i needed your channel so bad' or sth like this, but i already knew thtat i was pretty much done with most of the other popular youtube mtb channels. but anyways i am super happy to have discovered your channel - I LOVE IT! ^^
At the end of the day. CONTROL AND FUN is the take home.
You guys are doing one helluva job on the channel. It could not come at a more "fitting" time for me as I dump and take a loss on a frame that is way too long for me yet I am right in the middle on their size chart. Keep up the good work!
I honestly didn't know if you guys actually rode trails. I started thinking about it and its the first time I can remember seeing you guys record on a actual trail vs a more park or pump track
Great video.. I'm 5'6" and have always road M frames. Purchase a Yeti SB130 LR Medium and didn't like it at all, felt huge and I was just along for the ride. Went to my current bike Revel Rascal in a small and love it..
The bike you showed yourself sitting on at 2:35, you look way too big for that bike 😂 can't wait to see what your conclusion is! Definitely having trouble determining what size to get Xtrada 7. Thought I would get medium, but looking at all the geo specs, I'm now thinking I need the large. I won't be doing much trail, definitely no jumps, just long distance off road exploring in Wyoming. Also, gravel roads. Lots of hills, up and down. Lots of wind. I'm 5' 10", shorter arms/legs with 30" inseam. Any feedback from anyone way more knowledgeable than myself would be great! Haven't owned a bike in over 20 years.
This has been extremely helpful to me, especially the reach/RAD data. There is one aspect of bit fit that you have not addressed which is an issue for us taller/longer legged riders (6'3"/36" inseam). By your formula, my max bar width is 838mm, my ideal reach is 47.7 cm. I measured my RAD and it came to approx 82.55cm.
What this showed was that despite my height/inseam, the new Trek sizing of recommended XL would never fit me properly in their RAIL eMTB (65 yrs old, need ride duration more than intensity of effort). But the L frame seems to fit these measurements well. However, what is missing is the impact of the seat/pedal distance when adjusted to give the most effective/effecient stroke. A too short distance robs power, increases joint/muscle strain, pain, and the potential for injury. Getting it 'right' makes the ride perfect from leg comfort/stress/pain perspective.
The downside is that, for me, this results in a relatively high seat position when the post is full up / adjusted for my fit. This shifts/puts much of my weight constantly on my hands which gets uncomfortable/painful pretty quickly. I've been working through an evolution of 'parts' trying to address this. I just changed out the stock Bontrager stem (70mm) for a PNW Ranger v3 stem with 30m reach and changed out the handlebars from the relatively flat stock to the PNW Ranger bar v3 with 30mm of rise. I haven't had a chance for a test ride yet, but my 'sit' test seems to show that it will make at least some difference.
Some guidance/examples on how to approach this type of fit issue would be helpful with some demo of how some of these changes (bar rise/stem length, etc) can effect the weight shift issue.
Yeah I need a ton of stack height at 6'4". 655-660mm for trail and 670-675 for DH
So good!!! It’s like info I’ve wanted to know for years now. Great comparison!! Thank you!
Great way to determine what bike you enjoy more. I like that you were able to ride the bikes back to back and not just one size for a week or two and then switch parts over to the other size. Thank you Alex for the video. 👍
Great comparo!
I’ve just this week had a new experience. I’m 5’10.5” (179cm). I’ve a positive ape index. My calculated reach is 447mm. I was riding a Giant Trance X (large, reach around 480mm), after your vids and some measurements, I rode a friends medium hard tail and it felt so agile and fun. So I purchase the exact same Trance X in a medium, reach of 455mm. Still just a tad over, but…! The two bikes I now have are like chalk and cheese, completely different to ride but identical in spec and setup. Unbelievable how I have to re-learn this bike all over again and completely change my techniques, for the better! Awesome!!!
I'm 5'11" and ride a large Rascal. It almost feels small to me. Everyone has preferences. Nice bike.
This trend is frustrating, and I'm guilty of it, having bought a Large with a 460 reach, and another large with a 475 reach, yet I'm only 5'9" as well, and I don't think I have long arms. Lee's RAD test is like +80 for me, ha. I rode my buddies bike last week that is in the 450 range, and it did rotate better, but there is a certain speed where you lose stability, it's not a huge difference, but wouldn't it be cool if geo was more dynamic and you could lengthen your chainstays at speed, and shorten them for corners. I honestly still ride "just fine" on the longer bikes, but when I pick whatevers next, I'm curious to size down again and see how I like it. (or maybe I can win that medium :)
Im almost 5'5 but i used medium 😊
Greetings from Philippines
Where did you guys go? We need more tutorials!
I enjoyed this video. I'm almost 71 yo. I have been riding a medium Giant 29er hard tail for a couple of years. I'm 5'- 9". I love the bike, but recently bought a small Talon 2 hard tail with 27.5" wheels. I haven't been on the trail yet. Planning to go tomorrow. Hoping for that playful ride with more line choices.
You stole my joy, I was planning on winning the small Rascal. haha. Great content as always. As a 50yo recently returned to MTB, these videos have been great and inspirational. You and Lee keep up the great content.
I love that you ran this comparison. As someone living in an area with as much uphill pedalling as downhill playing (distance, but time??? 4:1!!) I would have loved more commentary and analysis on the pedalling aspects/difference/compromises of small vs medium to help understand this bike sozing conundrum the bike manufactures are trending these days. Thanks for another great video.
It would be interesting 🤔 short answer the longer bike feels better but there are no power advantages. So I’m guessing the times will be the same. Now if you’re racing and aerodynamics come into play more reach will be a good thing.
Thanks Alex. I was thinking as much about comfort and control as anything. I recall you mentioned that the cockpit was very snug, so I wonder how this plays out in tight, slow spots like switchbacks and such.
@@michaelhoulden9018 Rode a bunch this morning and the Small was great.
I learned more about how to pick a size here in this video than watching 15 videos for up to an hour!!! Thanks!!
Totally agree with you! They try to sell us longer bikes because they're faster etc. But longer bikes won't make you a better rider. Most people, to get faster, just need good practice especially in turns, weight balance, hip hinge, etc. If you're not able to handle a small sized bike, it's only more complicated with a longer reach. I had a SB150 in M for 176cm, I downsized for a Megatower in M while SC recommends a Large for me. And it feels so much better. There's only 15 or 20mm of difference, but now I can play with the bike instead of being just a bored passenger on it... Maybe bikes were too small a decade ago, but right now, they are all too long.
Amen
My gosh this makes me feel better about my size small Revel Rascal (I'm 5 8.5 with long ape index!) What a handy video for me! Thanks!
I'm at 5'3" and riding M size hardtail bike...Where else I should be riding S size bike.
I crash few courses specifically going downhill curve and always thinking maybe it's because I'm a newbie...
But this video explains it why... Maneuvering a bigger bike needs a little more technical.
On the other hand, it's true tho going uphill and riding on light gravel is really fast and fun.
Maybe I need to sell off my M size bike and do a bit saving to get another S size. As of now I just ride what I have...
Great Video and explanation...
I'm 5' 11" about bought a Whyte T130 2018 in Large as I was between sizes ( also thought I was 6' back then )
I always felt like I was being pull too far forwards when on steep tech so swapped the 50mm stem to 35mm which is a little better.
I rode a friends 2018 G170 in Small the other week and despite being super plush with the extra travel was really agile, poppy and fun compared to mine.
Also not a fan of the DHF vague zone and found for my trail bike keeping the tyres as light duty as possible for the terrain had really helped widen the speed fun zone and keep it in the sweet spot longer.
Assegai's kill it with the extra weight and grip so getting it there and staying there is super hard, I now run Dissector Terra front Rekon DC rear for the dry conditions and I'm faster nearly everywhere than I was on DHF/DHR.
The Dissector is a seriously underrated front tyre for trail bikes.
Love the Assegai. And the DHR should be worse with NO transition knob but I love it. Weird.
@@ark8tct I didn't get to try the 130 on a demo day but did the 160 in large, too much bike for me and I wasn't good enough to know what size I'd need regardless.
I'd go medium next time.
@@JoyOfBike No not weird, I'm the same. My DHR goes on the front when it gets wet because I can't lean a DHF and trust it. DHR center knobs are wide enough to act like a transition zone.
See if you can get your hands on a Dissector for that Rascal, it is for short travel trails bikes what the Assegai is for enduro and DH. Likewise I consider the Rekon a trail DHR
I recently replaced the DHF on the front of both my HT and FS. So happy I did that. The tire required me to be more aggressive than I can be. Now I'm running Bontrager XR4's and I like them much better. I also just got a Speccy Ground Control to replace on the rear of my FS (because the DHR2 was worn).
my bike came default from factory with assegai front and dissector rear. I don't complain, but have nothing to compare with, I trust company's choice though, doubt they'd randomly just throw whatever on it.
Great vid, as always! Your comments about the DHF and precisely why I opted for the Assegai. I didn't necessarily NEED the grippiest tire in the world, but I don't like the "no mans land" between the center and outer treads that most tires have. At "mid lean" those tires aren't confidence-inspiring. The Assegai bridges that gap nicely and I've been really impressed with it. Consistent grip from center to edge! Personally, I don't really notice it rolling much slower, either. Might be worth considering?
Took your rad ratio on my s3 rotated the bars shorter stem and I'm at my rad and my God I feel like I got way better. Much more enjoyable
This is great. I bought a large Polygon based on the sizing recommendations (I'm 5'11), but am wishing I'd gotten a medium. Their recommendations were that if you have longer arms, go Large, while longer arms for RAD mean go shorter. Oh well, I'll get it on the next bike!
Great attitude. And there is some truth to that. That’s why I can ride both bikes to such similar speeds.
I also have long arms for my height. 2.5 x height called for a 495 reach for me and i went with 500 for DH and 510 for trail. both bikes feel great. I feel like my bikes fit my torso length (hip to shoulder distance) and my arms are just there for range of motion on drops and rollers. So maybe longer arms don't necessarily call for longer reach. Try a shorter stem before you get another bike right?
Which Polygon?
@@miguelfragoso7023 It's the Premier 4. It was good for getting my feet wet in mountain biking, but for this year I decided to upgrade to a Giant Trance 29" (in Medium).
I'm really how things would have changed if you'd set both bikes up (stem length, spacers, etc) in accordance with your RAD.
Awesome! This (along with your other RAD fitting vids) just locked in my choice for my next enduro bike. I'm 172cm and am picking a small (436mm reach) over a medium (457mm reach). The manufacturer recommends the medium but the numbers just seem long for my height. All because of the qualitative stuff...I couldn't care less about 1-2 seconds on a lap. Great post here. Thanks.
I'm your same height exactly and I got a size Small frame MTB (Manufacturer suggests either S or M). I felt a little crammed on it and I got a slightly longer stem. That solved it and I'm now very happy with the fit. What size did you get and how do you like it?
@@radiocontrolled9181 I got a small Forbidden Dreadnought (436mm reach). I love the fit! I posted my first impression video on my channel (I Do Blues). Search "Forbidden Dreadnought vs The North Shore: Trial by Jank".
Easily one of my top three favorite mtb channels.
This is super helpful, I recently bought 2 bikes, a small bike (XS frame, 24 inch wheels) meant for kids and a medium 29er which is said to be the right size for me but feels way too big. I'm 167cm (5ft 5inch) tall and I'm pretty sure a small frame is better for me. It's a pitty I have to go through so many bikes to figure out the right size.
If you're 5'5 tall it doesn't take much thought to figure out that a medium size 29'er is waaayyy too big for you. I'd say try a small frame 27.5. Good luck!
Another enlightening video. Real interesting. At 5’11” I swallowed the hype and got a L Revel Rail. Maybe should’ve sought out a M. 🤔.
I can maybe lose 20mm from the stem but I guess that won’t have quite the same effect, as it’s wheelbase that’s determining the difference in your case.
There's more to it than just numbers. And a LOT of personal preference. You might want a longer bike if you ride a lot of park or steep terrain. A shorter bike is less forgiving of imperfect riding position on g outs and landing jumps. Of course a longer bike is going to be less nimble on tight trails.
Agree with you on the medium. All the number times show small but your feels said it was the medium that was fastest in many situations. That tells me the medium was the bike with the feels even though the small had the quicker numbers. It would be interesting to know what stems were used and what bars, were they 20, 25, 30mm heights, this will shorten reach on them too. Lee even says the fork travel increase will shorten reach as well but these both seemed to have the same travel. Good work on this video.
I'm a DHR 2 front and rear kind of guy, but I recently tried the Assegai up front on my full sus. Definitely an Assegai guy now! Corners like no other!
Nice video! I'm 5'7 and never tried a small... thanks for this great info!
I think you’ve touched on a critical point there about bike reviews. What one rider would call nimble and playful in a given size, a smaller rider on the same size may call it a sled. Lee’s RAD concept makes it easier to choose a size, for me I need to adjust the mindset that now I won’t always buy a L frame, as I’m more suited to medium with modern geo. I like Specialized’s concept of frame sizing: match it to your riding style rather than body dimensions. All very interesting stuff. Another great video!
Very quiet from you Alex! Hope all is well! If you’re struggling with something maybe share the load
Great video! This comaprison would have been even more interesting if he rode the other manufacturer recommended size (Large) on top of these 2 to see how the current sizing trend would have held up against the smaller bikes. But hey I quess I can't have it all.
I love these videos.. Completely changed the way I set up my bike! Not only, but I have realized that I like smaller frames and mullet style geo. Next bike I buy will be a medium.
Watch all your work,never commented before,you and Lee do such a GREAT JOB,still riding in the mountains at 63,not your average Huckleberry Hound, I've learned from you trmembous amounts of life and bike skills,but I just love the NEWTON- METERS,ISH,,,,USE IT ALL THE TIME,,,,,
I too am on the cusp in regards to size. I wish I would have saw this video prior to buying my medium carbon frame. Unfortunately until I find a time machine, I'm stuck with the medium. There is no way my boss (aka wife) would allow me to buy another frame for the foreseeable future. I am now using RAD to make the necessary adjustment to dial in my fit. I thoroughly enjoy your videos. You and Lee compliment each other with your skills and knowledge.
This has literally been the most helpful video series that I have watched … I’m new to mtb with a bmx background and couldn’t figure out why all of the bikes that were recommended to me at 6ft tall were so long and cumbersome
As a new full suspension rider size was confusing ,at 6’1 also stuck in the middle.watching your sizing videos changed the balance an feel of being center ,thanks for your help.rad saved me from making a x large mistake .
Manufactures suggestion is basic sizing guides, so much adjustment can be done with stem, handle bars wight and rake, even your seat can move alittle for the finer adjustments.
I feel adjustable wheel base length would be far stronger value for most people. Some riders do better on a more stable longer wheel base and other riders might need less, thats a whole new bike,
Adjustable wheel base (just like motorbikes) opens a whole other level of riding for some people. Some people dont care as long as its close enough.
this is unrelated to rig size but I'm curious about steps you take to avoid biker's elbow. I ride daily so the pain never really fully leaves.. it seems to be exacerbated by any movement involving pulling back sharply on the bars (which is pretty much everything! hops, jumps, wheelies, manuals). a video or short with some practical tips on how to prevent or treat this would be huge. anything to keep me outside on two wheels a little longer..
love the channel! you break things down in a way that's so easy to consume and apply. appreciate what you do big time
That's not too surprising of a result. The issue is the bikes are getting longer from the same measurement (bb to ht) but the seat angle is going forward also (more upright). So the reach seems to be getting longer on paper but it may not actually be based on the seat tube angle.
I'm 5'10" and just picked up a medium Specialized Epic Evo and could be happier for my trails. I'm on mostly tight single track and need more maneuverability. I could see myself on the longer bike if I rode trails like you show here.
Of course, my pick opposes internet wisdom and I should feel cramped and awful but really it comes down to the trails you ride and what you arenlooking to get out of it. You like playful so I expected you'd like the smaller bike. Some who just bombs down those trails to get from a to b might like the more stable feel.
Anyway, great content again. I was considering the Revel but with Covid and availability I had to get what I could, not that I regret my choice, the EE is awesome for my trails and conditions.
Super cool stuff. I'm 6'5" so it's usually XL size and hope it works because the XL is usually too small by the numbers but I get used to whatever I have and have joy because I am riding my bike. If I was a sponsored racer I could get the exact bike for my size but I'm not. I have 1 bike and it has to work for everything I do so, I'm happy with what I have. I got my bike from Fezzari and they did a really good job customizing it to the measurements I sent them. After your R.A.D. video I figured out my R.A.D. and checked what my bike was and it was really close, stock from Fezzari.
I’m 5’10” and ride a medium hard tail…I don’t know how comfortable I’ll be on a small.but.I would love to try…you got me thinking 🤔
I wager you'll hate it. Too small.
i am 6'2" and i agree.. smaller is more fun... after riding a large everyday to school and work, i was looking at xl bikes for comfort... but now with 29ers those big wheels help so no need to have larger frame but every maker has dif sizing really gotta ride it and be able to at least adjust the seat... that is a big pain at some of these stores nowadays... they have to get pedals, tools to adjust seat if no dropper, your id, blah blah blah... shopping for a decent bike is a lot more work nowadays. :) i
Thanks for the video! I just purchased a new 2021 small Rocky Mountain Altitude A50. The shop guy tried to talk me out of the small 😂. I’m almost 5’8” 168lbs. My bike of 8 years is a Medium 2013 Rocky Mountain Altitude 730, well maintained and upgraded over the years. (RAD adjusted, which made it way more fun) The 2013 medium is the same size as the new small. The shop guy didn’t believe me till I brought my old bike 🚴 in and put it side by side. He was cool, but, was really skeptical of my size choice. (Based on my RAD). I couldn’t be happier! Thanks 🙏🏽 Namastoke
new subscriber here from philippines awesome what a nice comparison on size got love this content...keep it up...thanks man💪
I went for RAD minus on my current steed early in the year. Now I know how much all my previous bikes have been fighting me, cramping my Joy. Thx
Bike sizing between brands are ALL OVERE THE PLACE !
Joy Of Bike channel is my mtb physic+formula+logic GURU.hope this channel came grew up every day and hope one day i can be master for all what you guys teach....keep it up guru 💪💪💪💪
by the way im your student from malaysia 🇲🇾🙋🏻♂️
Really great video. As I'm watching I am thinking....yeah, he's going with the small. On one of the downhill runs you said the small was so much fun. "The Joy Factor" wins out. (there...coined a new term)
I’m a size down from the manufacture recommendation and your observation about the ability to change lines quick is spot on. I’ve found that bot up and down if a line isn’t working, I can almost pick up the bike and place it on a new line. I always thought this was due to weight of the bike but size makes sense.
Great video. I'm always in-between a med and large, but I buy the medium as I feel more comfortable and at home on them. Looking forward to the give away
I broke my collarbone and scapula in a motorcycle crash decades ago, my right arm is lower to the ground (standing) and wider from my body centerline. My RAD on right is 77 mm , my RAD on left is 80 mm, a difference of 3 mm or about 1.25". I ride mostly for fitness (not jumping or tricks) and am 65, just retired, but still want a good fitting bike. Should I not worry about this discrepancy or should I split difference? Thanks for the great and timely info, just found your channel and like it a lot! I'm just over 5' 9", or 176cm. When I bought my current MT Bike, Gary Fisher hardtail in 1999, the advice was always go smaller. But recently I always see go larger if you are between sizes. My background is more road than MTB, but I want to get off the road with more cars and distracted drivers. Plus MTB is more fun! Next bike is full suspension e-MTB.
Alex, i've been wondering the same thing about sizing as you have, and i think just as you did, the best thing is to probably ride them back to back. I'm 5'7" and ride a medium Giant Trance 29er, which is on the low end of a medium. I feel really comfortable on the bike, but i've often felt i should have a smaller one. I usually find it pretty difficult to pop the front wheel, whether it's to do wheelies or just to get over an obstacle, and i feel going to a small might fix that. Planning on testing both for my next bike.
Great video! Your channel helped me to decide what size bike to get earlier this year. I was between and large and medium and opted for the medium.
Great work and info guys! Thanks for sharing that! What would also be interesting is to set up both bikes to have the same RAD and then test. What do you think?
Nama-stoke 🙏🤙
Robert
Really loved the filming, the time stops and the ease of explaining you guys do
Great video Alex and was good to hear your comments as you rode if you have the time or interest it would be cool to hear how each would go with a longer and shorter stem (ie. go shorter on the medium and longer on the small). That would potentially give them the same RAD but with different wheelbase length and slightly different rider CoG fore and aft.
Just wanted to let you know how great your content is.
I finally found a bought a medium Specialized Chisel and much of my decision was due to your videos and tips.
Now I’m wanting to get the manual down.
I know you stepped back to get centered and work on what matters most- you.
You guys are great.
Look forward to any activity on your channel.
Having said it'd be fun to see the channel out on the trail, want to confirm that it is fun. Very. And really nice camera work. One quibble, we are riding right along with you. But the banner (indicating which bike your on) at the top of screen is downtrail right where we are trying to look. Scary! Bob (husband of Amy)
It might be more scary if you could see. : )
Love the video's, they are much more descriptive and helpful then things like GMBN. What would be awesome, would be some E-MTB video's.
The transition from "dinosaur" bike to E-MTB isn't what people think it is..
Another, more realistic and affordable suggestion, is a video to help people like me who have ridden clipped in for 20 years, move to flats. Personally for me this is more a e-mtb focus, as I dont need clips for power, but riding unclipped feels so wrong now.... Everyone keeps saying that new mtb shoes and pedals there is no slippage, but some tips would be grouse.
great video. as for tyres; leave those maxxis behind and get you a set of schwalbe nobby nic and since you‘re rather light go for the 2.35 width