Thanks a lot for this video. I'm moving to my first job where I'm responsible for production lathes, and this is incredibly helpful for understanding how swiss turning differs from any other cnc work.
Im a CNC instructor but ive only worked with mills and a 2 axis lathe. we have an A20 that Im an desperately trying to learn. This was help thank you very much
Thanks for posting this, even if I'm only seeing it two years after the fact. I just started running an older L20 a couple weeks ago. Setup basically exactly like yours. I'm doing my best to learn how it works and the machines capabilities, and how the programming works. This was helpful, so thank you again.
I'm impressed Dan, job well done. I'm relatively new to Swiss style turning and you seem to be very skilled/experienced. I'm currently having some issues on a new Citizen L20. I'm going to post the situation in hopes that you or someone else can help. Thanks in advance. We've a brand new Citizen L20 and we're having chatter issue when turning. It's the first part we've tried running on the machine. The material is 8620, 11mm stock OD, 6.3mm finish OD, 28.75mm OD length. .01mm total tolerance, .8 finish requirement. The 11mm stock is necessary due to a 10.1mm OD beyond the 6.3mm OD. The stock is precision stock although it doesn't appear to be polished. I've tried using a CCGT .4mm nose radius(Sandvik), VCEX .1mm nose radius(Sandvik) and currently a 3 series DCGT .2mm nose radius(Kennametal). The tool is on center. Any thoughts/suggestions on tooling? Current cutting parameters are 2000RPM .075mm/rev. 226SFM is slow, if I increase the RPM chatter comes into play. The chatter isn't always consistent either when running higher RPM, I've seen the first 3mm of the part be acceptable then chatter the remaining length. I should also state that we're milling a flat on the part past the 6.3mm OD after the turning operation using a 6mm solid carbide end mill and you can see the back(bottom) of the end mill is dragging once the end mill is fully engaged, combined with the chatter issue it makes me think something is moving, lack of rigidity? Using M18 C0. in the program, couldn't find anything on a possible C-axis brake. The part is currently running with no taper. The guide bushing has extended land pads and from my understanding it's set correctly. I can hardly move the stock back and forth by hand through the gudie bushing, I'm able to rotate the stock by hand when the guide bushing is locked. ANY THOUGHTS/SUGGESTIONS ON PROPERLY SETTING THE GUIDE BUSHING? The main spindle(Z1) is as close to the guide bushing as possible when in production. I indicated the stock that was extended past the guide bushing, it's running true(concentric). I took out the main spindle collet and it appeared to have witness marks all the way around the front edge of the collet only, almost as if the stock spun in the collet and is only making contact with the very front of the collet. Any thoughts/suggestions? When I get back in the shop I'm going to run a short bar currently we are running 3 Meter bar length. I want to see if a short bar eliminates the chatter. I'm also going to make a temporary program that only skims the OD to see if less tool/machining pressure eliminates the chatter. What's the best practice to indicate the sliding head/turn tool to make sure it's correct? Any help/insight is greatly appreciated.
Awesome video. I’m training to do more Swiss work at our shop. This video helped. Took a lot of notes. I hope you decide to make more Swiss tutorial videos. Set up, etc. thanks!
Hello, I had kind of a random question. As far as swiss style cnc lathes, I'm only familiar with using a couple of older Tsugamis. On those ones, they use the M500 series of codes to control whether the main & sub sides are both doing things at the same time or if one side or the other needs to stop moving while just one side is working, to avoid interference. Do the Citizens also use the M500 series of codes to control that or do they use a different method? Thanks for posting :)
Expert explanation. I learned a lot. Impressive! I started training on a Swiss Citizen Cincom L series machine only three days ago. Thanks for sharing this video, Dan.
Tsugami and Star use M500 for wait codes that sync the different programs together. Citizen uses the G600 codes (as Dan said) for the same purpose. It’s all brand specific.
Hey Dan, first of all thanks a lot for such an informative video on Swiss CNC. Secondly, I would like to know that how much time will it take complete a stainless steel job of shape and size just as yours as shown in the video but with no milling cuts. I would really appreciate your reply. Thanks, Ritesh Mahajan, India
Lancaster! Im going to Thaddeus Stevens for mechanical engineering technology. Unfortunately we don't do any cnc programming in the course. Im considering doing Stevens 9 month cnc certificate course after graduation.
It was an excellent explanation... Sir, please explain how to set guide bush , main and sub spindle collet pressure and how to make geometric offset of gange and back tool post through vedio.... Please sir....
How does the cutting while the bar is coming out (I mean OD cutting for example, and not facing) work in these Swiss lathes? Because if the bar needs to come out (while being turned and being cut), the guide bushing cannot be locked to the bar.
The guide bushing is a slip fit for the bar stock, it is not intended to be locked to the bar. The bushing supports the work as it is allowed to travel in Z as machining occurs.
Thanks for your explanation. But at 19:51 the guide bushing seems to be locked to the bar. I am guessing that maybe it gets released when doing OD turning. But even if so, won't there be so much friction between the guide bushing and the bar in such a case? I would assume that it will create so much of heat.
@@a000ab No, it is set so that the bar can spin (all be it with some resistance), the main spindle drives the guide bushing via belts so that they spin together, to reduce heat generated during machining. The guide bushing is set and does not open or close automatically on these machines.
Oh man, great video! Totally just subscribed. I'd love to see you walk through programming a part from scratch that includes front, back, and side work. Esprit, PartMaker, manual, or other?
You all prolly dont care at all but does any of you know of a method to log back into an Instagram account?? I was dumb lost my account password. I would appreciate any assistance you can offer me.
@Israel Jack thanks for your reply. I found the site thru google and Im trying it out atm. Seems to take a while so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
Great explanatory vdo 👌 I need guide bushes and collets for Rnc 16 and citizen L16, i want to buy the sets whether new or used, any help would be appreciated
I personally like southwick & meister for guidebushings. I bought a new Citizen and the distributer told me they have bushings and collets in stock. A lot of people say they like Hardinge for bushings.. but I’m just not a fan. They are the fastest with fulfilling the order, but I’ve had quality issues. I’ve noticed the lands of the bushing not properly welded to the body on 3 occasions and the hardinge bushings... even when they’re perfect... I have a slightly harder time with adjusting them. I’ve never had a problem with southwick.
Nice vid. I knew what a swiss lathe was but I didn't realize how little I knew about them before seeing this vid, lol. Thanks for taking the time. re: UR5; first, I am curious what made you decide to branch out into VMC work, when you seem to be a pretty hardcore turn shop? Second, and this is what brought me to your channel, what made you decide to go with a robotic arm machine tender vs other milling automation options. i.e. pallets, pallet loaders, or an HMC. (I guess HMC is pretty self evident...$$$$) Is there a type of part you find to be more suited to robotic machine tending vs other options? i.e. you purchased the arm for a recurring order? Or do you think the arm would be a more flexible solution than other options? /ramble I am toying with the idea of making -ahem attempting to make- a machine tending robot for my hobby mill so I am eager to discuss the pros and cons of your setup.
We bought the mill to do some second operations on parts coming off the A20 swiss machine that couldn't be done in the machine. We have another job that had a lot of live tool work on the A20 that is quicker to do in the mill as a second op. We don't do very much if any work that is milling only. The robot is actually the second iteration of automation for one of those parts. I did have a set of 4 pallets that were loaded to achieve long runs. The pallets were too labor intensive and the configuration required the use of a very small undercutting end mill that was slow and very expensive. The robot in combination with the 4th rotary axis, allows us to do a lot more work with almost no labor and very cheap common ball mills. I would say most parts could be be automated possible with the exception of very small micro parts, but those can be mostly made complete on a swiss machine. I do have recurring orders for the parts that the robot runs and that would probably be key to adding that type of automation. The UR5 is very flexible and could be used for many things, machine tending, even inspections and sorting of parts. I am happy to answer any questions but I don't know much about building robots or machines.
Thx for the reply. That you were able to substantially lower your tooling costs b/c of the UR5 is awesome. A 4th (trunnion table) plus robot is precisely the setup I have been considering; although I am planning on doing strictly milling work. One question I have: Have you tested the repeatability of the UR5? The specs say it is repeatable to .1mm. Have you found that to be the case in real world operation? I ask b/c the machine tending robot I am envisioning will be a cartesian style with a 4th axis in the C plane. 1.) I am familiar with building those types 2.) I can avoid error stack inherent in serial robots 3.) Don't have to write an inverse kinematics solver 4.) They are cheap! Essentially I am talking about scaling a diy Pick and Place (used for placing components on a circuit board) and using it for machine tending instead. The principles are the same, at least I hope so. A few open source projects even have the vision figured out for orienting parts in the C axis. If .1mm is good enough for your work I'll start with that as the design goal. As I mentioned this is basically a hobby project at this point, but if I can get it running then I would love to go into machining full time. I plan on making vids once I get the project started so I can give back to the community.
Repeatability is excellent, check out this video ruclips.net/video/9orN_aUDY7w/видео.html I never tested mine other than the parts it works with every day are very consistently loaded into the machine.
If you want to have fun with the new guy just slightly open a door just enough to disengage the safety before he turns the machine on. After boot up it will throw an entire phone book full of alarms. It's kinda funny to walk up and see the look on their face. Especially whey they look over and say "All I did was turn it on man." It makes for a good morning chuckle. If your really feeling mean you can pretend to not know what happened to make them sweat a bit.
The code is absurd. It's not even assembly, it's essentially object code. This situation is truly bizarre. Hey, CNC machinists -- you could use words, you don't have to memorize a slew of numbers, lol. There's a marvelous world out there: compilation.
Dan, I can't figure out how to PM you. Please get back to me and let me know the best way to contact you. I have a job I would like you to quote for me. 300,000 pieces per year, simple rivet shaped 360 brass parts 3/16 x 3/16. David
Hey David, Let us know if you still dealing with such parts. We have our precision machining setup as well. I know it is super late but I thought I might give it a shot.
Dan Rudolph We are getting rid of them, but as we cut exclusively platinum alloys for cardiovascular devices, you probably couldn't afford the chips in the coolant tank. Lmao. It is nothing to pull out a 5 or 6 ounce ball of chips from hidden areas where wires for live spindles or coolant lines catch them.
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
Thanks a lot for this video. I'm moving to my first job where I'm responsible for production lathes, and this is incredibly helpful for understanding how swiss turning differs from any other cnc work.
Im a CNC instructor but ive only worked with mills and a 2 axis lathe. we have an A20 that Im an desperately trying to learn. This was help thank you very much
Thanks for posting this, even if I'm only seeing it two years after the fact. I just started running an older L20 a couple weeks ago. Setup basically exactly like yours. I'm doing my best to learn how it works and the machines capabilities, and how the programming works. This was helpful, so thank you again.
benlonghair I know that I’m a few months late, but how is I going so far with the machine?
One of the best videos I've seen discussing a swiss.
thank you!
I'm impressed Dan, job well done. I'm relatively new to Swiss style turning and you seem to be very skilled/experienced. I'm currently having some issues on a new Citizen L20. I'm going to post the situation in hopes that you or someone else can help. Thanks in advance.
We've a brand new Citizen L20 and we're having chatter issue when turning. It's the first part we've tried running on the machine.
The material is 8620, 11mm stock OD, 6.3mm finish OD, 28.75mm OD length. .01mm total tolerance, .8 finish requirement. The 11mm stock is necessary due to a 10.1mm OD beyond the 6.3mm OD. The stock is precision stock although it doesn't appear to be polished.
I've tried using a CCGT .4mm nose radius(Sandvik), VCEX .1mm nose radius(Sandvik) and currently a 3 series DCGT .2mm nose radius(Kennametal). The tool is on center. Any thoughts/suggestions on tooling?
Current cutting parameters are 2000RPM .075mm/rev. 226SFM is slow, if I increase the RPM chatter comes into play. The chatter isn't always consistent either when running higher RPM, I've seen the first 3mm of the part be acceptable then chatter the remaining length. I should also state that we're milling a flat on the part past the 6.3mm OD after the turning operation using a 6mm solid carbide end mill and you can see the back(bottom) of the end mill is dragging once the end mill is fully engaged, combined with the chatter issue it makes me think something is moving, lack of rigidity? Using M18 C0. in the program, couldn't find anything on a possible C-axis brake.
The part is currently running with no taper.
The guide bushing has extended land pads and from my understanding it's set correctly. I can hardly move the stock back and forth by hand through the gudie bushing, I'm able to rotate the stock by hand when the guide bushing is locked. ANY THOUGHTS/SUGGESTIONS ON PROPERLY SETTING THE GUIDE BUSHING?
The main spindle(Z1) is as close to the guide bushing as possible when in production.
I indicated the stock that was extended past the guide bushing, it's running true(concentric).
I took out the main spindle collet and it appeared to have witness marks all the way around the front edge of the collet only, almost as if the stock spun in the collet and is only making contact with the very front of the collet. Any thoughts/suggestions?
When I get back in the shop I'm going to run a short bar currently we are running 3 Meter bar length. I want to see if a short bar eliminates the chatter. I'm also going to make a temporary program that only skims the OD to see if less tool/machining pressure eliminates the chatter.
What's the best practice to indicate the sliding head/turn tool to make sure it's correct?
Any help/insight is greatly appreciated.
Thank you soooo much for taking the time to make this video. You do a great job explaining things .
Awesome video. I’m training to do more Swiss work at our shop. This video helped. Took a lot of notes. I hope you decide to make more Swiss tutorial videos. Set up, etc. thanks!
Wow, that's the best explanatory video for Swiss CNC I've seen so far. Very well done, good job. Covered a lot of material very clearly.
Can you make a video on how to touch off the tools from gang tool, live tooling, drop down tools and 31,32, on citizen cimcom L12
have a new job trying to learn swiss machining this has really helped out a lot explaining the way the machine opera's thank you
Raymond Valencia thank you! Good luck working with the swiss machines
ur a legend. i am moving to the citizen machines and am familiar with mill/turn lathes but not with swiss lathes. this video will help a lot!
Thanks for the visit to your shop! I had always wondered how those Swiss Mills work
Federico Romero Besné they are not inherently mills dude. Clearly You paid 0 attention to the video you claimed to have watched.
@@chuckphilpot7756 you are right! I probably meant to type something else and got distracted
Hello, I had kind of a random question. As far as swiss style cnc lathes, I'm only familiar with using a couple of older Tsugamis. On those ones, they use the M500 series of codes to control whether the main & sub sides are both doing things at the same time or if one side or the other needs to stop moving while just one side is working, to avoid interference. Do the Citizens also use the M500 series of codes to control that or do they use a different method? Thanks for posting :)
Citizens use G600s, probably very similar but different codes
Expert explanation. I learned a lot. Impressive! I started training on a Swiss Citizen Cincom L series machine only three days ago. Thanks for sharing this video, Dan.
Tsugami and Star use M500 for wait codes that sync the different programs together. Citizen uses the G600 codes (as Dan said) for the same purpose. It’s all brand specific.
What do you think is the most suitable glass program for cnc sliding lathes? Which program would you recommend I get?
Hey Dan, first of all thanks a lot for such an informative video on Swiss CNC. Secondly, I would like to know that how much time will it take complete a stainless steel job of shape and size just as yours as shown in the video but with no milling cuts. I would really appreciate your reply. Thanks, Ritesh Mahajan, India
I currently lead a team running jobs on 13 nexturn swiss machines this is a great video
Great video, Dan. Question: Will a L20 with the 25mm option handle 1 inch bars ok ?
18:10 is Example of Bar Change on the A20
Best swiss lathe video I have found.
Lancaster! Im going to Thaddeus Stevens for mechanical engineering technology. Unfortunately we don't do any cnc programming in the course. Im considering doing Stevens 9 month cnc certificate course after graduation.
Can you do a video on beginner working T-offsets & G-offests for R20 Swiss lathe?
i have problem in stamp hex for alinekey 3.5mm at back operation could help me
Hello, whats is that chips cover? Thats amazing! A need this
Hi can you make a video on how to touch off the gang tool ,
Awesome video. Answered all of the questions i had and then some
It was an excellent explanation... Sir, please explain how to set guide bush , main and sub spindle collet pressure and how to make geometric offset of gange and back tool post through vedio....
Please sir....
Hi Dan, I have a question about the special guidebushing you mentioned at 2:25. How is it spelled I'm trying to find one for a Citizen L20. Thank You.
Tyrone Davis
www.habegger-sa.com/english/canons_TP_en.htm
You can buy them in the US from alouettetool.com/
How does the cutting while the bar is coming out (I mean OD cutting for example, and not facing) work in these Swiss lathes? Because if the bar needs to come out (while being turned and being cut), the guide bushing cannot be locked to the bar.
The guide bushing is a slip fit for the bar stock, it is not intended to be locked to the bar. The bushing supports the work as it is allowed to travel in Z as machining occurs.
Thanks for your explanation.
But at 19:51 the guide bushing seems to be locked to the bar. I am guessing that maybe it gets released when doing OD turning.
But even if so, won't there be so much friction between the guide bushing and the bar in such a case? I would assume that it will create so much of heat.
@@a000ab No, it is set so that the bar can spin (all be it with some resistance), the main spindle drives the guide bushing via belts so that they spin together, to reduce heat generated during machining. The guide bushing is set and does not open or close automatically on these machines.
Ok, thanks for the info. It is clear now.
You can use the sub-spindle to pull the remnant while machining to save from wasting the bar end....
Oh man, great video! Totally just subscribed. I'd love to see you walk through programming a part from scratch that includes front, back, and side work. Esprit, PartMaker, manual, or other?
You all prolly dont care at all but does any of you know of a method to log back into an Instagram account??
I was dumb lost my account password. I would appreciate any assistance you can offer me.
@Kohen Mordechai Instablaster ;)
@Israel Jack thanks for your reply. I found the site thru google and Im trying it out atm.
Seems to take a while so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
@Israel Jack It worked and I actually got access to my account again. Im so happy!
Thank you so much you saved my ass !
@Kohen Mordechai no problem xD
I will watch this tomorrow, Just got back from KISS! This is the machine I am operating.
Great explanation! Thank You!
Show me how to adjust guidebush ....
Great explanatory vdo 👌
I need guide bushes and collets for Rnc 16 and citizen L16, i want to buy the sets whether new or used, any help would be appreciated
Ryaan Mughal like, are you looking for used stuff... or just trying to know where to order from?
Actually i m looking for both.. any thing which is of my concern
I personally like southwick & meister for guidebushings. I bought a new Citizen and the distributer told me they have bushings and collets in stock. A lot of people say they like Hardinge for bushings.. but I’m just not a fan. They are the fastest with fulfilling the order, but I’ve had quality issues. I’ve noticed the lands of the bushing not properly welded to the body on 3 occasions and the hardinge bushings... even when they’re perfect... I have a slightly harder time with adjusting them. I’ve never had a problem with southwick.
I run 2 a20 like yours. can you tell me the insert and holder numbers for the cutoff that your using in you're a20.
The holder is an NTK CTPWL10-IN with the insert CTPW25FLN.
Detailed video thanks, now I just need time to watch the whole thing
very similar to a star sa12 I set. The Citizen seems a nice machine
very good video I am just impressed with these machines Thank You
Its jammed because its filled all the way to the top, all the weight pushes an extra bar in the change sequence
Great video Dan!!
Awesome video. Thanks for getting all dirty for the rest of us on the internet
Great video man
Nice vid. I knew what a swiss lathe was but I didn't realize how little I knew about them before seeing this vid, lol. Thanks for taking the time.
re: UR5; first, I am curious what made you decide to branch out into VMC work, when you seem to be a pretty hardcore turn shop? Second, and this is what brought me to your channel, what made you decide to go with a robotic arm machine tender vs other milling automation options. i.e. pallets, pallet loaders, or an HMC. (I guess HMC is pretty self evident...$$$$) Is there a type of part you find to be more suited to robotic machine tending vs other options? i.e. you purchased the arm for a recurring order? Or do you think the arm would be a more flexible solution than other options?
/ramble
I am toying with the idea of making -ahem attempting to make- a machine tending robot for my hobby mill so I am eager to discuss the pros and cons of your setup.
We bought the mill to do some second operations on parts coming off the A20 swiss machine that couldn't be done in the machine. We have another job that had a lot of live tool work on the A20 that is quicker to do in the mill as a second op. We don't do very much if any work that is milling only.
The robot is actually the second iteration of automation for one of those parts. I did have a set of 4 pallets that were loaded to achieve long runs. The pallets were too labor intensive and the configuration required the use of a very small undercutting end mill that was slow and very expensive. The robot in combination with the 4th rotary axis, allows us to do a lot more work with almost no labor and very cheap common ball mills.
I would say most parts could be be automated possible with the exception of very small micro parts, but those can be mostly made complete on a swiss machine. I do have recurring orders for the parts that the robot runs and that would probably be key to adding that type of automation. The UR5 is very flexible and could be used for many things, machine tending, even inspections and sorting of parts.
I am happy to answer any questions but I don't know much about building robots or machines.
Thx for the reply. That you were able to substantially lower your tooling costs b/c of the UR5 is awesome.
A 4th (trunnion table) plus robot is precisely the setup I have been considering; although I am planning on doing strictly milling work. One question I have: Have you tested the repeatability of the UR5? The specs say it is repeatable to .1mm. Have you found that to be the case in real world operation?
I ask b/c the machine tending robot I am envisioning will be a cartesian style with a 4th axis in the C plane. 1.) I am familiar with building those types 2.) I can avoid error stack inherent in serial robots 3.) Don't have to write an inverse kinematics solver 4.) They are cheap! Essentially I am talking about scaling a diy Pick and Place (used for placing components on a circuit board) and using it for machine tending instead. The principles are the same, at least I hope so. A few open source projects even have the vision figured out for orienting parts in the C axis.
If .1mm is good enough for your work I'll start with that as the design goal. As I mentioned this is basically a hobby project at this point, but if I can get it running then I would love to go into machining full time.
I plan on making vids once I get the project started so I can give back to the community.
Repeatability is excellent, check out this video ruclips.net/video/9orN_aUDY7w/видео.html
I never tested mine other than the parts it works with every day are very consistently loaded into the machine.
If you want to have fun with the new guy just slightly open a door just enough to disengage the safety before he turns the machine on. After boot up it will throw an entire phone book full of alarms. It's kinda funny to walk up and see the look on their face. Especially whey they look over and say "All I did was turn it on man." It makes for a good morning chuckle. If your really feeling mean you can pretend to not know what happened to make them sweat a bit.
Thanks for the Video. I'm just starting with an A16 let me know how to contact you.
onebigron1 you can find my email on my website: www.rudolphmicro.com
Great video! Thanks for taking the time
Hello Dan, thank you for sharing your video. It's very helpful and explanatory. When do you use guide bushing and what is the rule of thumb for it?
Mike Mai I always use the guide bushing, the L12 can convert to guide bushing less but I haven't found it worth the hassle to try it.
Excuse me; do you have an email; can you communicate?
tôi đang làm cơ khí ở việt nam dòng máy b12,b012,18 , bs18,20 , A20 , L16 ,L20,L25,L32 . Tôi muốn mua máy cũ của bạn có dễ không?
It was a superb videos dan thanks.
Thank you so much for this video! Best explanation I've found yet!
thank you so much for making this , loved it, awesome :)
Holy shit. I make those hubs all the time at my work. I see you've done medical work
The code is absurd. It's not even assembly, it's essentially object code. This situation is truly bizarre. Hey, CNC machinists -- you could use words, you don't have to memorize a slew of numbers, lol. There's a marvelous world out there: compilation.
bitte. deutschland spach ( a20 cnc ) gemacht
Dan, I can't figure out how to PM you. Please get back to me and let me know the best way to contact you. I have a job I would like you to quote for me. 300,000 pieces per year, simple rivet shaped 360 brass parts 3/16 x 3/16. David
David S. Can you contact me via my website www.rudolphmicro.com looking forward to hearing from you
David S. give Swiss tech of new England a call if Dan can't. ty
tell them Chris refered you..
chris lussier good old Chris Lussier!
Hey David,
Let us know if you still dealing with such parts. We have our precision machining setup as well. I know it is super late but I thought I might give it a shot.
❤
BOM
We have about 10 Ro4s or R07s at work. Complete garbage. Our stars are night and day better.
Well let me know if you want to get rid of them.
Dan Rudolph We are getting rid of them, but as we cut exclusively platinum alloys for cardiovascular devices, you probably couldn't afford the chips in the coolant tank. Lmao. It is nothing to pull out a 5 or 6 ounce ball of chips from hidden areas where wires for live spindles or coolant lines catch them.
Are you a smoker?
Why do some youtubers think they need their face to fill the entire screen?