This recording takes us halfway back to the premiere of the work. Toscanini was as close to Beethoven as we are now to Toscanini. Amazing, when you think of it.
'' ..the most perfect performance of ANY beethoven symphony ever put on disc ..: ( records and recording, november 1969) about beethoven symphony no 7 with toscanini and new york philarmonic....i have this recording on rca victrolia lp......i love this records....!
awesome! I still love listening to Toscanini's Beethoven 7th nypo and my Dad had a complete set of the Beethoven symphonies. That's how I discovered classical music. I have been grateful ever since.
William Steinberg's recording of Beethoven's Eighth SHOULD have been the reference recording, in my opinion. But instead of using it as a point of comparison, critics always ignored that performance, probably because it was released on a minor label. Back in the day, whenever I recommended Steinberg, people reacted as though I had suggested that they try apple pie with tabasco sauce.
The RCA Camden version of this was my first 12 inch LP - a birthday gift when I was eight. It was the record that ignited my love of Beethoven. Still have it - and it sounds great.
I have owned this recording in its RCA Victrola LP incarnation since I was a teenager in the 1970s. While I have heard many fine performances (some of which you mention David) I still go WOW when I hear it.
I agree that this is the reference for this symphony. I believe it was Walter Legge who called it the greatest recording ever made of anything. Like the Semiramide Overture made around the same time, it's vastly better than his 1951 recordings despite arguably inferior sonics. (Arguably because the 1936 recording gives you more hall perspective than the closely miked later ones.) I would also choose Toscanini as reference for the NINTH--if it weren't for his 1st mvt. I always feel the music wants to be several minutes more expansive and weightier as well. Say, around the 15-minute mark, not Toscanini's 13 or less.
I understand your comment and it's a valid point. However, I read in several biographies on Toscanini that he was always troubled himself about that first movement. In his last studio recording of the Ninth, after listening to the playback, it was reported that he said, "I still don't understand that first movement." A remarkable comment given the decades of study and performing of this work. It read that Toscanini found in Beethoven's notes within the score of the first movement, the German word for "Desperation." I think Toscanini viewed the first movement as something cataclysmic; violent and dark. I guess we can say it was his interpretation of this monumental first movement.
Thank you for the reference, I believe found it on streaming paired with the 5th, 1933, Naxos...and thank god it does not have the repeat at the first movement. Great performance, I'm sure soon with AI applied to remastering process, the sound of these historical performances may be improved.
When I find MY reference recording of the 7th, it's going to be the one that actually does an fff in the coda of the finale instead of just an ff. Trumpets often do that, but for some reason the timpani never does.
This reference recordings series is terrific, thank you Dave! I'm hearing recordings of pieces I have heard many times and loved but missed these performances. What a gift in my '70s!! So strange though that this issue is unavailable, and Idagio only has the Naxos, whose sound is inferior to the version on RUclips. That may be the elusive Opus Kura. It's a perversity of the day considering Lang Lang's recording of Saint-Saëns's newly discovered Second Piano Concerto 😂is easy to get. (That review is priceless.) All to say that RUclips Dave for the reviews and Premium RUclips for the music, and maybe a streamer like Idagio, are a wonder of the age. Over the top? Not when I think of access to recorded music from the 1950s to the early 2000's.
I would have voted for this, but hardly expected you to choose it. It is not my favourite, but it remains the benchmark for me, and seemingly for you also. Best wishes from George in Herefordshire, UK.
The music history teacher at college once was walking down the hall, and he stopped me and said, "You need to listen to the fugue section of the second movement of Beethoven's 7th." I was like, huh? OK. He must have just been listening to it in his office and was really into it, and just had to tell someone about it.
Since the Japanese recording is not seemingly available there is one in "doctored sound" done by Andrew Rose. I own this and it sounds great. It's available for download or purchase at Pristine Classical.
For me Toscanini was just the perfect conductor; probably even moreso than the likes of Karajan, Bernstein, and others. His version of Beethoven's Misse Solemnis and Verdi's Requiem remain tops for me.
I finally figured out why I own four copies of Beethoven's 7th. Each movement required a different conductor. Update: I own the Toscanini box set, "the complete RCA recordings" and it has this reference recording.😊
Love and understand your reasoning for choosing this performance as a reference recording...but still surprised you didn't go Cleveland and Szell! :) Is that because you already did that for the Eroica -- you are not going to repeat conductors and ensembles in this series?
I think that the issue you emphasized, the one related to the new standards of interpretation, conducting and orchestration established by Toscanini, is the only which it has to be taken into consideration in order to define a recording as “reference”.
@@sleepjar7013 It depends on who you ask. I've seen Schuricht and Krips listed as references in French publications, as well as Carlos Kleiber's version on Orfeo. Vive la différence !
I’m enjoying this series, Dave, but I’m wondering why the reference recordings in the videos don’t necessarily match reference recordings listed at the bottom of your reviews on Classics Today. For example, your reviews of the 7th name reference recordings by Wand (and sometimes others) but not necessarily Toscanini.
Because sometimes we're talking about stereo versions, or the critic's personal "reference," but not the choice in the sense I've tried to define for this series.
Nah. Can't agree here at all. Don't get me wrong, this 7th is great, and Toscanini always did it really well (my favourite is his 7th with the BBCSO FWIW) but it has been superseded I'd say by a newer, better recorded version by that man Kleiber again. Critics on this side of the pond usually point you to Kleiber and the VPO, and certainly wouldn't consider a mono 1936 recording as their go-to these days.
No they don't, not even on that side of the pond. The Kleiber 7th has never been as highly regarded as his Fifth, and has never been viewed as a reference version in the way that Toscanini's has. Nice try though.
I have that Kleiber 7th (fortunately coupled with the 5th) but rarely listen to it, as, for me too, the end of the allegretto is such a let down! @@williamdirks5805
@@williamdirks5805 Klemperer plays the ending of the allegretto the same way as Kleiber. Do you consider that "sheer ego and misunderstanding" as well?
I really appreciate Dave's channel and many many helpful videos, but I think the concept of "reference recording" is going to be very controversial. The reason is that it's not Dave's reference recording, but you wished to give it a sense of objectivity so it's everybody's reference recording. To do that, you have to provide evidence that the majority of music critics and professionals all agree on that piece of performance. However, consensus is very hard to achieve, especially across generations. Maybe there is some consensus among the professionals who matured in the 70s, but it's hard to believe the critics and professionals matured in the 21st century agree with them on everything. So, is a reference recording for the people who matured in the 70s a reference recording for all generations?
It's a reference recording based on my 40+ years of professional experience. If you don't value that or don't trust it, go find someone else you do trust or forget about the whole project. These videos are presented to those who accept my expertise for what it's worth to them. I see no point in presenting further "evidence" than that. I explain my choices very clearly.
I have never really liked Toscanini's recording output....it might be the recording inconsistencies but I always thought his Beethoven especially was harsh and hard on the ears....slam bam so to speak...
To be clear, most "authorized" (non-bootleg) Toscanini Beethoven recordings are with the NBC Symphony. On his NBC recordings, Toscanini demanded very close placement of a single microphone to produce a dry sound in Studio 8-H or in Carnegie Hall. This 1936 New York Philharmonic recording occurred when Toscanini was intending to retire, over a year before the creation of the NBC orchestra.
This recording takes us halfway back to the premiere of the work. Toscanini was as close to Beethoven as we are now to Toscanini. Amazing, when you think of it.
Excellent comment, thank you.
'' ..the most perfect performance of ANY beethoven symphony ever put on disc ..: ( records and recording, november 1969) about beethoven symphony no 7 with toscanini and new york philarmonic....i have this recording on rca victrolia lp......i love this records....!
awesome! I still love listening to Toscanini's Beethoven 7th nypo and my Dad had a complete set of the Beethoven symphonies. That's how I discovered classical music. I have been grateful ever since.
William Steinberg's recording of Beethoven's Eighth SHOULD have been the reference recording, in my opinion. But instead of using it as a point of comparison, critics always ignored that performance, probably because it was released on a minor label. Back in the day, whenever I recommended Steinberg, people reacted as though I had suggested that they try apple pie with tabasco sauce.
Considering the recording is almost 90 years old, the sound is wonderful!!
Nailed it Dave!!!! Now, waiting with baited breath, panting expectations,,, for ,,,,, the NINTH !
I'm not sure whether or not he'll wear a tie, but I suspect it will be Friscay's.
The RCA Camden version of this was my first 12 inch LP - a birthday gift when I was eight. It was the record that ignited my love of Beethoven. Still have it - and it sounds great.
I have owned this recording in its RCA Victrola LP incarnation since I was a teenager in the 1970s. While I have heard many fine performances (some of which you mention David) I still go WOW when I hear it.
My L.P. copy is on the earlier RCA Camden. (Had to brag).
I agree that this is the reference for this symphony. I believe it was Walter Legge who called it the greatest recording ever made of anything. Like the Semiramide Overture made around the same time, it's vastly better than his 1951 recordings despite arguably inferior sonics. (Arguably because the 1936 recording gives you more hall perspective than the closely miked later ones.)
I would also choose Toscanini as reference for the NINTH--if it weren't for his 1st mvt. I always feel the music wants to be several minutes more expansive and weightier as well. Say, around the 15-minute mark, not Toscanini's 13 or less.
I understand your comment and it's a valid point. However, I read in several biographies on Toscanini that he was always troubled himself about that first movement. In his last studio recording of the Ninth, after listening to the playback, it was reported that he said, "I still don't understand that first movement." A remarkable comment given the decades of study and performing of this work. It read that Toscanini found in Beethoven's notes within the score of the first movement, the German word for "Desperation." I think Toscanini viewed the first movement as something cataclysmic; violent and dark. I guess we can say it was his interpretation of this monumental first movement.
This is like the reference recording of reference recordings for me…Toscanini’s version still explodes like none others.
Bravo!! And along with the reference recordings for Brahms! you are a marvellous critic. Hari
Thank you for the reference, I believe found it on streaming paired with the 5th, 1933, Naxos...and thank god it does not have the repeat at the first movement. Great performance, I'm sure soon with AI applied to remastering process, the sound of these historical performances may be improved.
When I find MY reference recording of the 7th, it's going to be the one that actually does an fff in the coda of the finale instead of just an ff. Trumpets often do that, but for some reason the timpani never does.
Yes, after all these many years, I can understand why Toscanini's is "The Reference." Even so, I half expected Szell's to have been the one.
This reference recordings series is terrific, thank you Dave! I'm hearing recordings of pieces I have heard many times and loved but missed these performances. What a gift in my '70s!! So strange though that this issue is unavailable, and Idagio only has the Naxos, whose sound is inferior to the version on RUclips. That may be the elusive Opus Kura. It's a perversity of the day considering Lang Lang's recording of Saint-Saëns's newly discovered Second Piano Concerto 😂is easy to get. (That review is priceless.) All to say that RUclips Dave for the reviews and Premium RUclips for the music, and maybe a streamer like Idagio, are a wonder of the age. Over the top? Not when I think of access to recorded music from the 1950s to the early 2000's.
Ok I’m on
Completely agree! There is something incisive and poetic about AT's version that withstands the test of time.
I believe this is the same recording that I own on a 3 disc set of Toscanini performances issued by Pearl.
Thank you. I remember talking to Ludwig when I was a kid and said that will be the one!
Now I know you're lying. He couldn't hear it.
I would have voted for this, but hardly expected you to choose it. It is not my favourite, but it remains the benchmark for me, and seemingly for you also.
Best wishes from George in Herefordshire, UK.
Idea for a series - 10 best recordings by different orchestras?
The music history teacher at college once was walking down the hall, and he stopped me and said, "You need to listen to the fugue section of the second movement of Beethoven's 7th." I was like, huh? OK. He must have just been listening to it in his office and was really into it, and just had to tell someone about it.
Since the Japanese recording is not seemingly available there is one in "doctored sound" done by Andrew Rose. I own this and it sounds great. It's available for download or purchase at Pristine Classical.
Naxos Classical had an excellent release mastered my Mark Obert-Thorn, which is reasonably available as a used CD. I own two copies.
For me Toscanini was just the perfect conductor; probably even moreso than the likes of Karajan, Bernstein, and others. His version of Beethoven's Misse Solemnis and Verdi's Requiem remain tops for me.
I finally figured out why I own four copies of Beethoven's 7th. Each movement required a different conductor.
Update: I own the Toscanini box set, "the complete RCA recordings" and it has this reference recording.😊
Of course we are all waiting for the "Ninth!"
Love and understand your reasoning for choosing this performance as a reference recording...but still surprised you didn't go Cleveland and Szell! :) Is that because you already did that for the Eroica -- you are not going to repeat conductors and ensembles in this series?
No, I didn't pick it because it's not the reference recording. These are facts, not opinions. And I prefer the Szell.
I think that the issue you emphasized, the one related to the new standards of interpretation, conducting and orchestration established by Toscanini, is the only which it has to be taken into consideration in order to define a recording as “reference”.
I’m surprised there is no reference recording for Beethoven 4. I wasn’t expecting you to list that among the others.
@@sleepjar7013 It depends on who you ask. I've seen Schuricht and Krips listed as references in French publications, as well as Carlos Kleiber's version on Orfeo. Vive la différence !
Szell's is just plain awesome. That's why you are our critic of choice, Mr. Dave.
I’m enjoying this series, Dave, but I’m wondering why the reference recordings in the videos don’t necessarily match reference recordings listed at the bottom of your reviews on Classics Today. For example, your reviews of the 7th name reference recordings by Wand (and sometimes others) but not necessarily Toscanini.
Because sometimes we're talking about stereo versions, or the critic's personal "reference," but not the choice in the sense I've tried to define for this series.
Can’t find that version
Is there also a stereo reference for which you would make a case?
The reference is what it is.
Nah. Can't agree here at all. Don't get me wrong, this 7th is great, and Toscanini always did it really well (my favourite is his 7th with the BBCSO FWIW) but it has been superseded I'd say by a newer, better recorded version by that man Kleiber again. Critics on this side of the pond usually point you to Kleiber and the VPO, and certainly wouldn't consider a mono 1936 recording as their go-to these days.
No they don't, not even on that side of the pond. The Kleiber 7th has never been as highly regarded as his Fifth, and has never been viewed as a reference version in the way that Toscanini's has. Nice try though.
I have that Kleiber 7th (fortunately coupled with the 5th) but rarely listen to it, as, for me too, the end of the allegretto is such a let down! @@williamdirks5805
@@williamdirks5805 Klemperer plays the ending of the allegretto the same way as Kleiber. Do you consider that "sheer ego and misunderstanding" as well?
Is that performance available on another CD?
Naxos, with 5. Symphony
Just to be clear, it’s with the NY Phil, not the NBC Symphony Orchestra?
@@jg2977 Yes
I really appreciate Dave's channel and many many helpful videos, but I think the concept of "reference recording" is going to be very controversial. The reason is that it's not Dave's reference recording, but you wished to give it a sense of objectivity so it's everybody's reference recording. To do that, you have to provide evidence that the majority of music critics and professionals all agree on that piece of performance. However, consensus is very hard to achieve, especially across generations. Maybe there is some consensus among the professionals who matured in the 70s, but it's hard to believe the critics and professionals matured in the 21st century agree with them on everything. So, is a reference recording for the people who matured in the 70s a reference recording for all generations?
It's a reference recording based on my 40+ years of professional experience. If you don't value that or don't trust it, go find someone else you do trust or forget about the whole project. These videos are presented to those who accept my expertise for what it's worth to them. I see no point in presenting further "evidence" than that. I explain my choices very clearly.
I have never really liked Toscanini's recording output....it might be the recording inconsistencies but I always thought his Beethoven especially was harsh and hard on the ears....slam bam so to speak...
No, that's not a fair description of his work at all.
To be clear, most "authorized" (non-bootleg) Toscanini Beethoven recordings are with the NBC Symphony. On his NBC recordings, Toscanini demanded very close placement of a single microphone to produce a dry sound in Studio 8-H or in Carnegie Hall. This 1936 New York Philharmonic recording occurred when Toscanini was intending to retire, over a year before the creation of the NBC orchestra.