I am a big Pat Metheny fan, huge fan. That said, proper credit needs to be paid to Lyle Mays, the CO-WRITER of First Circle. Specifically the parts highlights here. Lyle wrote that stuff.
This was SO helpful ! I absolutely love this song, and I play music as a hobby, but was completely clueless about what was happing with the rhythm. You are so talented! Thank you.
thank you for this magistral class. I like very much this piece of music by Pat and Lyle. I memorice all of this song, melodic an the rithm, but can believe tha is 22 . OH¡¡¡ YOU play the piano and underestand the music perfectly. And sing very good. blesings for you.
Actually, the part at 2:39 is not improvised. There is one improvised solo in First Circle, played by Lyle Mays, and in that section they tone down the madness of 22/8 and switch between 6/8 and 4/4. First Circle is my favorite Metheny/Mays tune, and I would love to hear that orchestral arrangement.
I do not have enough words to thank you both for this gem. I always knew there was something magical ( but amazingly complex) , about this song, not only the chords secuence, but also this “ time signature “. PM is a Mozart as somebody put it down, future generations will give him even a higher status than he has today. thanks very much again .
I even think, he is Beethoven and Chopin too. And not just because of his haircut. ;-) This man is simply genius. So many different styles are living in his mind. Everytime I listen to his music (and i do this for almost 35 years now) I discover some new sounds, new chords, new styles. I do not get tired of listening to his music.
Thank you for explaining, in a manner accessible to the interested layperson, why the structure of this piece is so subversively radical and astounding.
Credit needs to be given to the co-writer of this piece Lyle Mays. Though Metheny came up with unusual meter, the vocal intro to the piece that O'Neil plays was written by Mays.
+spaisflex It wouldn't surprise me if it was Mays that came up with the form for the piece. My impression is that Metheny came up with most of the melodies for PMG tunes but it was Mays who did most of the arrangements. That having been said, I prefer to hear Metheny in a simple jazz-guitar-trio setting!
+Owen McGee The heart of the piece is written by Pat. Pat wrote the baroque-sounding section, the main melody, bridge and solo form and wrote the ending of the piece with Lyle. Lyle wrote the vocal intro and the interlude after the solo.
+John Mitchell Green, I thought exactly the same. I don't have any musical training at all, but I have always sensed that it was a most unusual piece with complete disregard for usual conventions - yet, contrary to most "experimental" pieces (including some by Metheny himself, as in "Song X" and "Zero Tolerance..."), it's absolutely beautiful and moving. I'm addicted to "First Circle" and I need to listen to it once in a while to restore my faith in life and humanity. It was great to listen to an expert telling us what we laymen don't notice in such simple and understandable terms. And one could see how Mr. O'Neil is as enthusiastic about it as we are - perhaps even more.
Love this explanation. Metheny has been a favourite of mine for over 20 years. A lot of people I know don't like Metheny, but I attribute that to they don't appreciate the genius of his music.
+AliothSenator His way is cool. I might treat it as mixed meter and conduct in 4/4, 2/4, 3/4, and 2/4, just to keep the beat consistent and that way it lines up with the big 12/8 and 10/8 bars.
+AliothSenator each beat is actually an 8th note , the way to practice imo is in patterns of 3 2 3 2 2 3 3 2 2 thats actually the pattern that you hear pat during the intro the first note is played then the remaining beats are clapped ie. the first pattern play c then clap twice to fill the remaining beats
3/4, 3/4, 2/4, 2/4, 2/4 (12) 3/4, 3/4, 2/4, 2/4. (10) So the second time around, you just leave off the last two beats. Or, its: XXOXXOXOXOXO XXOXXOXOXO where each X is a hand clap (beginning).
@@martine.210 yes, I just checked a first circle vid. It is a bit more complicated than I thought. He splits up the two 3/8's first time around. Thx. You can also think of the first 12 pattern as a 5 followed by a 7 (not 6, 6). Also, Pats notes are on the 1, You don't clap on the 1.
@@johnplink Scott was demonstrating the rhythm by tapping on the piano on the off-beats. It's a brilliant way of introducing the unusual meter while not giving it away right from the beginning. Then when the piano and guitar come in with the on-beats, everything falls into place.
Insightful exposition on a wonderful composition. First Circle has long been a favorite Metheny / Mays piece; even with its complexity it's completely accessible and melodic. For another metrically challenging piece check out "9 Over Reggae" on Pat's collaboration with Jack DeJohnette, Herbie Hancock and Dave Holland. Thanks!
If you love odd meters, check out Billy Cobhams opening number in "Crosswinds". Its three measure of 4 followed by one of 5, 17 beats in all. Awesome drumming! I didn't realize Pats solo here was also in the same meter as the rest of the piece.
@@joeymac3969 Pat did more of the writing for the band than Lyle did, even in most of the tunes they wrote together. Lyle is one of the brains behind the band and deserves plenty of credit, but Pat deserves at least a little more than half of the credit for the band.
Pat is a jazz master. Lyle is a master of jazz and classical music. You can hear Bach chorales in First Cirle. I am a big fan of PM but the pinnacle was the PMG thanks to Lyle.
The 22 beats break down into 3+2+3+2+2+3+3+2+2, so if you're going to split it up it can be 12+10. But you still need to put the focus on how the beat is broken up. You can't really cut it into 6+5+6+5 because there's no even split.
It's only complicated if you make it so through theory... playing (or coming up with this) by feel/ear is not a problem... it's just accents at the end of the day.
Not all. It takes inspiration from Bach, Ravel and Stravinsky too. Pat got the idea for such an unusual rhythm after working with Jerry Goldsmith. The inspirations for First Circle come from all over the world.
It's not. You can't break the rhythm down that way. It's why we have 2/2, 2/4 and 4/4. They have different feels. First Circle doesn't feel like 6 and 5. It's 12 and 10 if you really want to break it down from 22.
I am a big Pat Metheny fan, huge fan. That said, proper credit needs to be paid to Lyle Mays, the CO-WRITER of First Circle. Specifically the parts highlights here. Lyle wrote that stuff.
I would rec this a thousand times if I could. Thank you.
When I think about Pat Metheny, Lyle Mays always comes along...and Viceversa
I have listened to "First Circle" a thousand times. Every time it lifts me, transports me. For me, it could just as well be titled "Perfect Circle".
Or, Infinite Circle...
First Circle has a way of drawing you into its complexity in a simply magnificent way.
Technically, the groove is alternating 12/8 and 10/8 bars subdivided as 3 2 3 2 2 and 3 3 2 2
Amazing! Lots of things to think about after watching this.
So glad I'm on the planet the same time as Pat Metheny
Pat Metheny and Lyle Mays... AMAZING...
This was SO helpful ! I absolutely love this song, and I play music as a hobby, but was completely clueless about what was happing with the rhythm. You are so talented! Thank you.
thank you for this magistral class. I like very much this piece of music by Pat and Lyle. I memorice all of this song, melodic an the rithm, but can believe tha is 22 . OH¡¡¡ YOU play the piano and underestand the music perfectly. And sing very good. blesings for you.
Seeing PMG perform this live is a LIFE-CHANGING EXPERIENCE. Especially hearing Lyle Mays' solo. 💜💜💜💜
LUCKY Y🤓U‼
Brilliant all around !!
This was so enjoyable. Thank you for sharing. Anyone else impressed with this guy? I loved his input and his talent.
Actually, the part at 2:39 is not improvised. There is one improvised solo in First Circle, played by Lyle Mays, and in that section they tone down the madness of 22/8 and switch between 6/8 and 4/4. First Circle is my favorite Metheny/Mays tune, and I would love to hear that orchestral arrangement.
I do not have enough words to thank you both for this gem. I always knew there was something magical ( but amazingly complex) , about this song, not only the chords secuence, but also this “ time signature “. PM is a Mozart as somebody put it down, future generations will give him even a higher status than he has today. thanks very much again .
thank you Pat Metheny for existing
Yeah. What a huge gift. Where would we be without Pat?
And thanks to his parents primarily ;-)
What a maestro is Pat!!!!!!
Pedro Aznar on vocals is AMAZING !!
SERℹ😙USLY‼
Like an angel.
Pat Metheny is a Mozart of our age. We are fortunate to be living at the same time that he is creating his music.
I even think, he is Beethoven and Chopin too. And not just because of his haircut. ;-) This man is simply genius. So many different styles are living in his mind. Everytime I listen to his music (and i do this for almost 35 years now) I discover some new sounds, new chords, new styles. I do not get tired of listening to his music.
Wow.
Thank you for explaining, in a manner accessible to the interested layperson, why the structure of this piece is so subversively radical and astounding.
Credit needs to be given to the co-writer of this piece Lyle Mays. Though Metheny came up with unusual meter, the vocal intro to the piece that O'Neil plays was written by Mays.
+spaisflex It wouldn't surprise me if it was Mays that came up with the form for the piece. My impression is that Metheny came up with most of the melodies for PMG tunes but it was Mays who did most of the arrangements. That having been said, I prefer to hear Metheny in a simple jazz-guitar-trio setting!
+Owen McGee The heart of the piece is written by Pat. Pat wrote the baroque-sounding section, the main melody, bridge and solo form and wrote the ending of the piece with Lyle. Lyle wrote the vocal intro and the interlude after the solo.
The closing theme to "San Lorenzo" is definitely down to Lyle. He seems to echo it in the main theme of "Close to Home."
DrummerFlex agree Pat is not Pat without Lyle. First circle might
Be the most perfect song ever written.
Might? It is!
I was in a marching band show to this song. Changed my life forever.
Have seen PMG perform this live twice. Lyle's solo in this is masterful. Live, it was thrilling.
This was interesting to get an outside perspective I'd never heard on any other interview done by Pat, himself.
Technically explaining what my heart has always confirmed: Genius!
+John Mitchell Green, I thought exactly the same. I don't have any musical training at all, but I have always sensed that it was a most unusual piece with complete disregard for usual conventions - yet, contrary to most "experimental" pieces (including some by Metheny himself, as in "Song X" and "Zero Tolerance..."), it's absolutely beautiful and moving. I'm addicted to "First Circle" and I need to listen to it once in a while to restore my faith in life and humanity. It was great to listen to an expert telling us what we laymen don't notice in such simple and understandable terms. And one could see how Mr. O'Neil is as enthusiastic about it as we are - perhaps even more.
Absolutely fascinating, thank you
Fascinating video. First circle is one of my favorite pieces of music.
Thanks for this. Love how he explains such an amazing composition!
After 3 years of this published, It is like yesterday! Amazing! I love this Incredible Song, First Circle!!!!! Thanks for sharing!
Am gasping at something so brilliant
Love this explanation. Metheny has been a favourite of mine for over 20 years. A lot of people I know don't like Metheny, but I attribute that to they don't appreciate the genius of his music.
...'astOunding piece of music.
it was amazing then and it's still amazing now
love this explanation...thankyou
Fantastic!
A brilliant Masterworks analysis, examples and arrangement by Scott O'Neil
Contrary to what Scott O'Neill says at 2:18, the part starting at 2:39 is not an improvisation.
You're right. But Pat probably wrote it in a Bach-like manner, improvising it and writing it down, then tweaking it.
That we dont understand, will make us smarter/more clever. I could watch this a million times, will I understand??
Pat Metheny is the greatest musician and Pat Metheny Group is the greatest band of all time! Shout out Lyle Mays
Absolutely mindblowing!!!
Is there a way I can listen to this version of First Circle that O'Neil conducted?
that's great!
what an insight in an amazing piece of music!
Great except that he gives all the credit to Pat when it could very well have been (or also) Lyle Mays.
Wow. Great explanation. I have never been able to clap along to this. I will try to think of it as being in 11/4 and this 3-3-3-2 in each bar.
It will be more confusing if you try that because the rhythms don't break down that way. The pattern is made up of 22 beats.
Very good explanation of time signatures from Pat.
'THANK you!..., ugh, lol
It boggles my mind how incredible Pat Metheny is...He should be in the Kennedy Center Honors...Everybody google Pat Metheny nominate Kennedy Center
WOW,beautiful, too bad he didn't continue and perform a full solo version, great explanation to a great piece
"How on Earth you conduct something with 22 beats of bar?"
+AliothSenator His way is cool. I might treat it as mixed meter and conduct in 4/4, 2/4, 3/4, and 2/4, just to keep the beat consistent and that way it lines up with the big 12/8 and 10/8 bars.
+AliothSenator each beat is actually an 8th note ,
the way to practice imo is in patterns of 3 2 3 2 2 3 3 2 2
thats actually the pattern that you hear pat during the intro the first note is played then the remaining beats are clapped ie. the first pattern play c then clap twice to fill the remaining beats
3/4, 3/4, 2/4, 2/4, 2/4 (12) 3/4, 3/4, 2/4, 2/4. (10) So the second time around, you just leave off the last two beats.
Or, its: XXOXXOXOXOXO XXOXXOXOXO where each X is a hand clap (beginning).
@@kenaldri4923 Almost. It is 3/8 2/8 3/8 2/8 2/8 | 3/8 3/8 2/8 2/8
or OXXOXOXXOXOX OXXOXXOXOX.
@@martine.210 yes, I just checked a first circle vid. It is a bit more complicated than I thought. He splits up the two 3/8's first time around. Thx. You can also think of the first 12 pattern as a 5 followed by a 7 (not 6, 6). Also, Pats notes are on the 1, You don't clap on the 1.
absolutely amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is a recording of the performance of First Circle that Scott O'Neill conducted available?
I was wondering the same thing. Maybe something to purchase?
Brilliant analysis! So I wonder why it's called "First Circle..."
I agree, it's funnier to play that song than to conduct it, but I thank you very much for your masterclass.
Well said sir ,well said
Excellent analysis! I wish Scott O'Neil would have discussed the clapping at the beginning of the song.
Looking at the chart in the Pat Metheny Song Book, I now see that the claps occur on all the eighth notes that do not fall on the asymmetric beats.
@@johnplink Scott was demonstrating the rhythm by tapping on the piano on the off-beats. It's a brilliant way of introducing the unusual meter while not giving it away right from the beginning. Then when the piano and guitar come in with the on-beats, everything falls into place.
@@matt-spaiser I figured that out a long time ago, as you can see in the comment I wrote above.
I love the piece, were it build ups and ends with a climax, so dramatic.
Pat Matheny!
Actually If I remember well , he wrote the peace in 12/8 plus 10/8
Insightful exposition on a wonderful composition. First Circle has long been a favorite Metheny / Mays piece; even with its complexity it's completely accessible and melodic.
For another metrically challenging piece check out "9 Over Reggae" on Pat's collaboration with Jack DeJohnette, Herbie Hancock and Dave Holland.
Thanks!
great musician
そうか、8分の22拍子なのねこの曲。３+２/３+２+２/３+３/２+２ってことよね。それにしてもこの人すごいね、一人でピアノ弾きつつ歌いつつリズム刻んで。器用だなあ。
If you love odd meters, check out Billy Cobhams opening number in "Crosswinds". Its three measure of 4 followed by one of 5, 17 beats in all. Awesome drumming!
I didn't realize Pats solo here was also in the same meter as the rest of the piece.
Dont forget that somebody said that Lyle was the really PMG's brain...
Writing credits on 90% of the songs, so there it is.
@@joeymac3969 Pat did more of the writing for the band than Lyle did, even in most of the tunes they wrote together. Lyle is one of the brains behind the band and deserves plenty of credit, but Pat deserves at least a little more than half of the credit for the band.
Pat is a jazz master. Lyle is a master of jazz and classical music. You can hear Bach chorales in First Cirle. I am a big fan of PM but the pinnacle was the PMG thanks to Lyle.
I join the claim and the feeling of many that it is only fair to include Lyle Mays, otherwise you cannot understand anything he says. All the best.
Non parlo inglese, ma ho capito tutto. Straordinario!
Was Pat inspired by the rhythms of Steve Reich when he composed this piece with Lyle?
Pat got the inspiration for the unusual rhythms after working with Jerry Goldsmith.
Danny from WestWing is back! LOL, looks just like TImothy Busfield and sounds like him too!
6+5 isn't simpler?
The 22 beats break down into 3+2+3+2+2+3+3+2+2, so if you're going to split it up it can be 12+10. But you still need to put the focus on how the beat is broken up. You can't really cut it into 6+5+6+5 because there's no even split.
It's only complicated if you make it so through theory... playing (or coming up with this) by feel/ear is not a problem... it's just accents at the end of the day.
All the First Circle inspiration is Brazilian
Not all. It takes inspiration from Bach, Ravel and Stravinsky too. Pat got the idea for such an unusual rhythm after working with Jerry Goldsmith. The inspirations for First Circle come from all over the world.
It's a 6 and a 5 ..get over it
It's not. You can't break the rhythm down that way. It's why we have 2/2, 2/4 and 4/4. They have different feels. First Circle doesn't feel like 6 and 5. It's 12 and 10 if you really want to break it down from 22.
It's (3+2+3+2+2) + (3+3+2+2).