If anything, there needs to be more specific rules on what is allowed. If something gives a competitive advantage, any serious team would abuse it. If they wanted to change the rules last minute for a specific interaction. They have to let everyone know. A single message does not cut it. For a situation like this, I would have gotten everyone in a call and made sure they understood this interaction was not allowed. The current game lets you use Kinetic carbine, fleetfoot, and ice path before picking up the urn. I see know reason why an ultimate ability would be different. I think the devs understood this, but did not fully consider the ramifications, which is why they patched it a couple of days later. I think eventually, it will be changed that so the urn curses you, so that it will stop any channel abilities.
@@guilhermedecarvalhofernand1629 yeah the curse should stack faster , have higher base damage , but less scaling , with 150 spirit each stacks goes from 26 to 86 , a 12 stack deals around 1000 dmg , it might sound broken but it takes 8 seconds of perfect timing to get it i think making it 6 seconds and dealing a bit lower dmg is more reasonable and make the character feel more reliable
Honestly, they should not let any channel abilities work on urn. However, if other things like ivy, haze smoke bomb etc. is allowed, then this should be, even though it clearly stronger. It's neither an exploit nor should you be penalised for it. Instead, it should be patched out to prevent things like this, but as long as they don't, then honestly it should be free game.
Clearly not. All of these can be reacted to eventhough they gain movement speed or flight sure but TP is instant there is no counterplay to this except constantly camping the dropoff point as soon as the urn is up.
In Dota there was a bug called fountain hook(there are many documentary about it if you are interested), NaVi abused fountain hook in The International the biggest prizepool tournament in the world at that time. NaVi was surely going to lose against TongFu the chinese team. NaVi didn't abuse it once but several times till they comeback and win the game. Other Eu and NA teams were so pissed, they were literally cursing at them when they got out of booth. TongFu the chinese team was abviously sad, but they said they knew that bug, everyone knew about that bug, they could abuse it or anyone else could. We lost. Loss is a loss.
But also there is a CSGO scenario called olof boost. Which is not a bug IMO. Team fnatic was going to lose. But they abused a 3 man boost to control a section of a map without being seen. They came back and won the match. But they got disqualified for it. It was clearly not a bug, but map knowledge. And they are literally using 60% of the team to do it. Other team could rush somewhere else. But they still got disqualified. Idk what's right what's wrong. IMO Ruleset should be really specific about what's bug or not. If the bug me and my team found is not in the ruleset, we should be allowed to use it. I have spent time in game to find it out. Maybe I found it because I found it based on luck. But there is always a luck factor in every sport.
@@CTSstreams2 the olofboost was disallowed because it was abusing what's called a pixelwalk... Essentially one of the players in the boost was standing on thin air... Or what was supposed to be thin air... And Dreamhacks ruleset did not allow for the abuse of this which is why Fnatic was DQ'ed. Also Fnatic weren't really DQ'ed, it was ruled that the half would be replayed the next day, and then Fnatic also accused LDLC of also using a pixelwalk on their CT side, which although not as impactful was still a pixelwalk... So in the end the whole map was supposed to be replayed, but then Fnatic just forfeited the game, probably because the PR was terrible...
This is purely a TO issue. Things have to be defined better and no rule update should be hidden in a random discord text channel. The TO doesn't have to much experince with this and that's okay, they will learn and improve. But you as a player haven't done anything wrong.
In other games, tournaments have a list of bugs that cannot be used. If the tournament is big enough to have some dev support, you may get a list of known bugs from them to fill. Additionally to all of those there are some umbrela terms added, so like "bugs alowing instant relocation", or "bugs allowing access to otherwise inaccessible parts of the map".
valve bugs are notoriously abused in highest level of tourney but unless they specify any ingame abuse is usable as per valve. look up fountain hook abuse. this was done in a million dollar tourney and navi won using this.
This is by far the least impactful bug that has been used in a valve game tournament. Pudge Fountain hook during ti is one of the biggest ones that I can think of.
As far as i recall the bug itself had barely any impact on their victory. You could only use it so often and you still had to hit the hooks. If you missed a hook, well you ended up in your fountain and had to either teleport back to a lane or walk. So you either lost time or your tp went on cooldown. But what you need to remember with each bug is that how game breaking they are. This bug for example required a very precise timing and you also had to hit the hooks, so it wasnt really game breaking.
@@Ex0rz brother u watched that ti? that bug literally won them the game. they fountain hooked enemy carry late game. they were doing it quite consistently. dendi and his prime pudge days
Neither fountain hooks nor traveler+urn are bugs, just creative use of game mechanics. Hook is clear, it pulls people towards pudge, so if you teleport while they're flying they get pulled to the teleport destination. Same with traveler, traveler moves you across the map, the urn wants to be carried across the map, the fact that silences don't interrupt channels means that you can pick up the urn while channeling.
If you can't explore these things in a competitive setting how are we ever supposed to determine that they are too strong? I think that the game should be explored in its fullest right now unless something is very clearly FUBAR. To me it's super lame they just immediately said no to this based on some guy's judgement that this was OP and unintended.
@@VaaaaadimThey had a point in this instance, but the point still stands. It is a closed alpha so making hasty bans under the pretense that it's too strong is not particularly a good mindset when it comes to testing out the balance, you gotta let shit rock and notify the devs when it turns out pitiful or problematically powerful.
@@Bonehead_Paladin Genuine question: what is the procedure, as a dev, for deciding to allow this interaction to stay or be patched out. How much time should pass before you make a verdict... a few days, a week, a month? What metrics do you use to make this verdict? And there is a trade-off between waiting longer to be more certain it's too strong vs players not having fun playing against it. In my view, it was a pretty safe choice for this interaction to be patched out. My justification would be that I can scarcely imagine any method nearly as strong to come about for securing the urn, short of egregious bugs like glitching under the map, and only one team can have mirage in a match. When it seems this clear-cut, why wait longer for it to spread, people waste time learning it, people waste time confirming its not fun to play against. If players think devs made the wrong choice by patching it out, they can vocalize their opinions.
@@Vaaaaadim It's pretty commonplace for things to take days or weeks, maybe even months and years to get noticed or judged as bad for the health of a game as metas, strong strategies and counterplay rarely appears overnight, as new mechanics, items and characters get added they can shift the balance of a game, but you can only know through patient observation how they do it. So to put it in numbers, I'd say a week is pretty much the minimum time I'd usually give something before trying to rebalance it unless it's an immediate problem. But take it with a grain of salt as I'm not a game designer or balance nut, just someone who's really passionate.
@@Vaaaaadim if you look at the patch notes, it doesnt even say "fixed" (implying a bug fix). the change could be easily interpreted as a balance change. literally noone can say that the interaction was intended or not except the developers themselves.
The TO just didn't think of it lmao. and the moment it was brought up it was the TO's responsibility to tag the relevant people. You can't mind read and you can't be expected to be hawk watching the chat. You CAN ping someone and let them know about a rule though.
It’s certainly cheesy but I wouldn’t call it a bug, more like “unfinished mechanic”, stepping on the urn perhaps should not only just silence you but also interrupt abilities That reduces the “pubness” aka the “fun”, but that absolutely makes for more fair competitive
except it was in a questions section that is open to them. Its like the football ref puts out a "questions about what is allowed in this tournament" section and the coaches just ignore it and then do whatever in the game and if they get called off they say "but how should I have known? Noone sent me a personal DM".
@@AeneaSXI but it's not "questions about what is allowed" it's questions about anything, from when each match is to who's playing to what the prize pool is and the format and so on. there's entirely way too many messages in that channel to ask every coach to sift through all of them, especially when sometimes questions result in long conversations that can veer off-topic. it's absolutely on the tournament organisers to alert teams if there's something they realise wasn't clarified before that they need to know. in a playtest game with a new tournament, there's just no way the initial rules are gonna be absolutely comprehensive, and as a tournament organsier you need to account for and adapt to that. it's gonna be messy, that's fine, but you have to be able to patch things up as you go.
@@iyabiya8716 Sure I give you that. And that is probably also the reason why they weren't heavily penalised for it. Still he could have known if he really wanted to. Catgirl managed to now didn't she?
I feel like being able to use channeled abilities while picking up the urn should be considered an exploit, that seems really unfair. I don't know if that's something on the dev's list of eventual fixes, but I would say using an ability should preclude picking up the urn, rather than be used simultaneously. If the dev's hadn't considered fixing that before, I'd hope they're considering it now with Mirage's teleport. That's pretty broken.
exploit, maybe, bug, no. unless they do consider channel usage during urn pickup a bug in general, but you can see why this wouldn't be thought to be a bug considering they haven't fixed it for such a long time despite it being a known thing
Known exploit and the game still allows ivy self cast and haze smoke bomb to work. As far as I’m concerned it’s just another thing for the enemy team to watch out for. Urn just landed and mirage is spotted close on mini map, send a few over to delivery point and get ready for an early fight.
I would consider something in the same wheelhouse if it achieves the same thing. Instantly taking the urn is a high bar to clear. That said I still agree with other commenters that the TOs communicated poorly but giving out that small penalty was fine.
@@Wav3x3on Is being able to pop speed items and ice skate or fly it over, or do it invisibly, *exactly* the same thing? No. But does it amount to the same result well over 90% of the time? Pretty much. If they fixed Mirage, they should fix the others too. The only real preventative measure against any of these strategies is to take the urn first. Urn should silence AND clear any currently active buffs or abilities. Equal opportunity carry, save for higher base speed or bulkiness.
@@chadcharest9891 I think Urn should be challenging. We'll definitely see something like this in the future. It already gives a native speed buff and can be dropped fairly free of cost. Urn might not even make it to full release, or it might look very different.
Ngl, putting this all on the TO when Deathy was told about this once ( ruclips.net/user/liveeNhQ5LwCwMg?si=QzRJf1WOsl0WptH1&t=4165 ) and then asked about (in the clip he shared) by a teammate before the match feels pretty disengenuous. Ignoring both those interactions kinda makes it feel like he was just trying to get away with something by not confirming it (ask forgiveness not permission). Basically, if I was ever competing in anything and someone told me they heard a very specific thing wasn't allowed, then a teammate asked me if that thing was allowed, and then instead of looking to confirm... I just did the thing, that's (at least partially) on me.
He's not dumb, he obv. knew this was questionable, but as a competitor you are going to walk the line of the rules as much as you can to get an advantage. Happens in literally every pro sport, regardless if people don't like the outcome.
Are you sure? The clip you linked is from 5 days ago, but the twitch stream of this game was 6 days ago. I think he was discussing why it wasn't allowed AFTER he did it.
@brubie7584 They both happened 5 days ago. The footage playing while he's talking is the tourney as it's happening. You can rewind it and see them tuning into the stream. (You can also go to the "Live" section of his YT channel to see the VOD of this exact game marked 5 days ago. )
I'm with you on this one. The tournament organiser saying that something is disallowed in a random Q&A with no exhaustive communication does not officially disallow it.
On top of what I said in the previous comment, I think that although mirage is the top user of the “channelurn”, if haze, carpet, burrow etc allowed, then mirage should be as well, either that, or disallow everything from the list
Its should not be illegal or bannable. Because you still need map control and a teammate and time the channeling of the skill and that skill is an ult.
No, it shouldn't be allowed. It's literally a bug. Proof is it literally got patched yesterday as the tournament was going on. Yes, rules should be clearer, but it should indeed not be allowed to abuse bugs.
@@Dani-of2zu I’m not sure I would categorise it as a bug, many other characters can still pick up the urn while channeling abilities. It’s definitely unintended but if it was a bug they would surely “fix” kelvin and ivy being able to do it.
@@Dani-of2zu That is issue with making tournament with game that is not fully out. They are constantly patching and modifying things. Like they delteed double dipping for lanes and now they turned it back on. Sometimes it can be quite hard to say what is a bug and what is not unless it is really broken thing.
@@Dani-of2zu the patch was a change, not a bugfix. it's not a bug because it's consistent with how every other channeled ability works. the patch changing it makes it an outlier in that it no longer works. you can debate whether that change was the right call to make or not but if you say it's a bug that's just categorically wrong
this should definitely not get you punished. every top player, all experienced players, and everyone who watches skilled games has known you could do this with the urn for a very long time. i'm surprised the devs didn't change the mechanic or this characters ult, given how easy it makes urn, but they didn't, so teams should have been ready to ban mirage or pick mirage themselves if they think this is so strong. additionally, you said the competitors even got to vote on if this character is allowed, and they voted yes lmao
yeah I don't see the issue. "they have Mirage we must watch the urn spawn point not delivery point" is not a game-breaking issue in organized play, and in pubs Mirage is not getting such good coordination with his teammates to perform this flawlessly.
If kelvin run etc is allowed, this should be. Personally i'd rather all should be disallowed since the seemingly intended way is to run with it, but then ivy ulting an ally carrying the urn and similar scenarios becomes a grey area. Would be nice to hear from the devs how they intend the mechanic to work just for clarity of how we should approach it in tournaments and competitions.
definetly an oversight in several points of view. The balancing department should take action regarding this character, maybe making it so you cannot capture nor drop the urn after teleporting for a certain ammont of time or smthng. And from the Tournament perspective, If the Chat where the "bug" was stated was not a mandatory read, there is no way to guarantee that everyone is going to be in the same page regarding this gray areas.
I think it's definitely on the devs and organizers what is and isn't allowed. In dota 2 the wisp teleport fountain hook bug was used to win an international worth millions of dollars in prize money and the losing team understandably to this day feels they were cheated by Navi for it. The urn teleport here is cheese but it's also a mechanic in the game that is honestly less abusable than that situation so hm... Deciding what tech we wish to allow and disallow is always a weird thing.
timing a 100ms channel to urn pickup definitely *seems* unintended, or is a bug, regardless of which hero does it. As far as the tournament, they just gotta clarify that shit bruh. Make a bug ban list, and if a new one pops up mid tourney, pause the whole shibang and ban the bug right there for all further game time.
Current patch allows it, so it should be a legit feature, but in the future, they should fix it and DO NOT ALLOW any abilitie while picking the urn. Delivering the urn is a mechanic that have a high reward, so the teams should be able to contest it.
In pro/semi-pro valorant in the rule book there are known bugs, with screenshots and all of that exemplifying what you can and cannot abuse, showing what is intended and what is off limits, I know it's different to weight bugs in an alpha game when the organizers have nothing to do with the game, but with a strong community TOs can make a generic rule-set with all the known examples screenshoted and with their description, and don't even bother updating old stuff just let it be there if the bug comes back or someone later find something similar with another hero they can immediately point to the rules.
My personal take as a rando that has 100+ hours in this game but no real competitive experience in gaming is that it was doubly mishandled by the TOs. Before ragging on them, good on them for having a tournament, I think stuff like this especially this early is a big deal and will help get eyes that aren’t already on the game look at it when they otherwise wouldn’t have. I just have trouble believing that wasn’t something that immediately came to mind when they found out Mirages kit and he was decided to be allowed. If the questions chat is where they’re expanding on what is and isn’t allowed, the teams need to be clearly communicated that. Honestly I don’t think there should have been any repercussions since they didn’t ensure that at least one person on every team was tracking that the urn-and-TP wasn’t allowed. There’s no question that it’s a super powerful play, which I think just makes it worse on the TOs in this situation. With there being history of utilizing an ability before the silence effect hits, I don’t think it’s reasonable to force players to self-police for fear of committing a violation. I have faith that the TOs and future TOs of other events will reflect on this and see the need for some clarification on these “abusable” situations, but I really feel this is on the line and tournaments are competitive environments, so of course you’re doing to do what you think is allowed so that you’re supporting your team to the best of your ability. TL;DR there needs to be clearer communication at least on things that could borderline bugs, and no violation should have been given. The interaction was very straightforward so I don’t see why the TOs wouldn’t call it out immediately.
If stuff like Ivy flight and magic carpet is allowed in the same situation, it makes no sense for teleport not to be. The impact may be different, but the mechanic being used is the exact same.
This specific interaction was op since there is no way at all to prevent this without receiving any penalty in map control because it is instant and the teamates do not need to leave their lanes. All the other cases with channel abilities do not act like that in the context of the game. Now, thr question is, should channel habilities still be used with the urn? L think no so the devs need to change it to curse the user instead, otherwise any exploit similar to this that can happen in the future will be used again. And they do not feel intended to be used in most of the ways you cause them to happen . Now the punish in the tournament is more at fault for the organizers not making sure every leader knows for sure they know this is banned.
To me it's not a bug, it's a consistent interaction that works the same as all other abilities. If you are competing it is natural that you would use favorable mechanics to your advantage. If it's not explicitly in the rules you shouldn't be afraid to take advantage of mechanics that help you. If anything this is a learning experience for the tournament organizers.
Hey Deathy, I was tuned in for your livestream titled "TOURNAMENT POV - NO INTERACTION." At the 20:30 mark, speaking on this issue, you said no, it wasn't a bug, but then you specifically said "the tournament organizers said to try not to do it." This was before the match in question, by the way. For that reason, given that you went ahead and did it anyway, it really looks like you were trying to exploit what you saw as a grey area in the rules. I consider it a lot worse, though, that you're now trying to pass it off as an honest mistake, as if you had no idea this might not be allowed. I can hazard a pretty good guess as to why the organizers didn't rigidly encode this as a rule: if you got jumped by an opponent while picking up the urn, and panic ulted, the net result is you just TP'd with the urn, without really intending to. That probably shouldn't be an automatic disqualification; most sports allow rules to be broken without immediately ending the game in a default. But from the footage you've shown in this video, you set out specifically to TP with the urn as a deliberate play, willfully ignoring what the organizers had said on the matter, and now you're feigning ignorance. It's not a good look.
Hey first of all thanks for the comment. I went back and checked to VOD because honestly, I didn't remember that. In the VOD, I say "Yeah, I've done it. I don't think it's a bug. I think the TOs said to try not to do it...", then 10 seconds later I say "I don't know if the TOs actually said that." I actually didn't remember that at all, and yeah to be fair, that does make the case against me significantly worse. To go further, I looked into all discord channels and documentation that I could find, and the only mention of the urn tp not being allowed is the one in the questions channel, which had no yet been posted at the time of my vod yesterday. Most likely I heard from someone that it *might* not be allowed. That's my best guess anyway. In any case, I do fully admit I am AT MINIMUM partly at fault (if not fully), so I'm not looking to blame the TOs or anything, and I've spoken to Alju and Bottom Barrels and all is chill. To respond to the last part of your comment, they *did* encode it as a rule LATER (much later than when I said something on stream), they just didn't @ Team Captains or anything. The rule was encoded roughly 30 minutes before our match, without any clear warning or official announcement - hence the confusion. Thanks for the comment! Hopefully that clears things up :)
@@filipgasic2642 "you shouldn't care if you didn't participate in the tournament" is a terrible take, of course. also the first part, as material reality clearly shows, he was in fact not making stuff up. This entire comment is unserious. I'd personally suggest dropping the parasocial hero worship/defense, and the internet detective bit for that matter. besides that, this is a nothingburger.
@algumnomeaihehe I'm not parasocial about a random deadlock streamer, but that's your only defense against me. OP wrote an essay about someone who didn't know something. It's pointless... because he didn't know. I just don't like pretentious people, which OP certainly is and that's the main reason i responded.
Fake drama, for views. Must be rough out here as a deadlock youtuber. Literally every single person in "top 0.0000000000001%" mmr land knows how the urn works. Everyone at that tournament knew the implications of not banning mirage and that this could happen. Its so trite and annoying i felt compelled to type this out so congrats on your $1 you made off of youtube engagement from me.
Unless Valve makes a statement that this isn't working as intended (And in which case they need to fix it with Ivy/Kelvin etc as well because those are also crazy strong if slightly weaker). You can't say it's a 'bug' if it's working as intended. These just add additional strategies. Like, if there is a Mirage/Kelvin/Ivy on the opposing team, go for the Urn harder. They can't cheese it if they don't have it. After that, it's up to the Tournament Organizers. If they didn't mention it, and the game lets it happen, it's allowed. And if they said you can't teleport it, but you can use other ability cheese effects, I'd argue against it. All or none, let the meta sort it out. I'd be fine either way.
Tournament organizers do of course have the right to set whatever rules they want so whether it's a bug or not is inconsequential, but this whole debacle was definitely a lesson to them in how to properly communicate those rules.
I totally agree with you. Between the nature of the tournament being small and community run, the early state of the game, competitive nature of the players, and lack of explicit clarity, something like this could easily happen. Did you do that strat again in that game once they complained? If not I think it's totally fine, not a big deal.
it's absolutely up to the organizers to communicate clearly, there is a level of due diligence on the captain side but ultimately when it comes down to it it is up to the organizers to clearly convey the rules. Instead of just saying abusing bugs, list some examples of major bugs or interactions that are not allowed and possibly even just list everything that comes to mind, everything not on the list you can pause, ask an admin for the verdict, then if it gets added to the list it's banned for the rest of the tourney, if you do it again you get punished for real. Anything that has been clarified like the urn tp should be listed for sure. Obviously there is some common sense here where if a team is deliberately targeting exploits that are not on the list one by one and going "it's not on the list so just give us a warning and move on" then maybe it's time to do something else but if it's just an honest mistake it's way different.
Glitch vs. Bug vs. Exploit: Glitch - when the hardware itself makes an error in values, causing unexpected results Bug - when a part of a program is not working as intended Exploit - when intended, properly-functioning systems are used in unintended ways. Glitches are hard to reproduce and aren't acceptable to reproduce in any competitive scene. Bugs are always banned as it consistently breaks the game in unfair methods. Exploits are oftentimes comparatively minor in game impact and typically become a notorious part of the game's skill and enjoyment, while the exceptionally outstanding exploits are often patched or explicitly banned in competitive settings Mirage's urn teleport is undoubtably an exploit as unfair as it was. As such it has been patched outright by the devs.
The whole point of tournament rules is to prevent behaviour that competitors consider unfair, especially things that have not been patched yet, or are difficult/impossible to patch, or that the devs do not intend to patch. I think it's totally okay for the organisers to arbitrarily decide what is best for the competitive integrity of the matches, but it is up to them to communicate everything ahead of time, and not to punish first-time infringements harshly if nothing was clearly stated. I think this situation was handled fairly well, though I think the organisers could have more clearly communicated a list of things they consider unfair and notified players. And if we're really stretching it, you probably could have paused before you doing it and quickly clarified with the admins in private, since you had some doubts that it was totally okay.
I wouldnt call it a bug, more like a game design issue. The Devs should just make it so any movement ability drops the urn. Trying walk on Kevin's path should drop the urn. Get picked up by Ivy, drop. Teleport, drop.
This situation should be "Don't hate the player, Hate the game" moment. Tournament organizers SHOULD inform all participants of game mechanics they don't wish to see in game. Ex (Teleport with Urn on Mirage) Is it perfectly reasonable to teleport with Urn when there are many other items and abilities you can channel before picking up the Urn? I'd say so. Personally I didn't like the change valve made that Mirage drops the Urn when attempting a teleport. 1 Ability channel can't be used, but others can? Personally I think they should disable all channels while picking up the urn. Or make it so you become cursed 1 second before picking up the Urn. Make it consistant. Being able to move Urn in Goo Ball, Flying away with Ivy, and using Magic Carpet is also very strong.
To me it doesn't seem fair to be punished for something that wasn't written in the rules. Are players expected to ask for every possibly unintended mechanic in the game? Would there have still been a penalty if Catgirl hadn't happened to ask about it before the tournament? 99% of the blame is on the tournament organisers for not communicating properly, though I'm sure they've likely learned from this experience as well. At least the punishment was quite minor.
Feel like there have been plenty of updates for this to be fixed, something as strong as urn capturing and its yet to be addressed, especially considering how openly people use the tech.
This is definetly a gamebreaking bug. All of the channeling abilities that were mentioned before are atleast somewhat counterplayable, but the teleport is instant and can only be stopped if super specific measures were taken, e.g. players are constantly controlling both side of he Urn to stop the near instant TP. I would say that Ivy's ult is as strong as an ability can be before it is considered gamebreaking, regarding he transportation of the urn. Edit: maybe there shold be added a maximum speed debuff for a player carrying the Urn, that applies every second to bypass cleanses.
I personally think they should get rid of them all. Can you counter Ivy/Kelvin etc. carry? Sure. But it's also not simple, and generally requires specific characters or itemization and camping the urn and/or delivery with one or more characters. Or just getting the urn first, which also counters Mirage. Catching them part way while moving is pretty slim. And both are tanky enough that if they get to the other side they'll probably get the delivery anyway, though they'll die for it. Which often happens when hard-carrying the urn anyway, and can easily happen with Mirage. Yeah, Mirage carry would be the strongest, but these are also super strong. Urn carrying with abilities gives a specific advantage to those characters in carrying the urn. If they had a *disadvantage* somewhere else to pay for it, then sure. Let them carry the urn for some reduction in overall stats. But they don't. The characters are *mostly* balanced - which is rather impressive all things considered.
@@chadcharest9891 I think you are making a great point and to be fair I agree with the idea that there should be minimal amounts of shenanigans related to the Urn carrying. However, relative to the tournament rules I would say that a gamebreaking bug would be something that bypasses a mechanic fully. The only ability that almost completly nullifies the usage of the Urn is the Mirage ult. All the other abilities force the player to travel across the map (like how the urn was meant to be) in order for them to get the urn, hence the amount of game breaking imo would be consider a lot more severe in the Mirage TP incident. Also, Iv n kelvin for example, will be able to perform there movement enhancement for other players aswell, even if they wee not themselves carrying the Urn, so the mechanic already exists in a fair sense, but is technically a bug (which could be considerded gamebreaking but definetly not as gamebreaking as the mirage ult.) I think it's good that Mirage got a big spotlight immedeatly in the tournament so that the developers for Deadlock instantly get good data on how to run the game. The curiousity and creativity of the players also made the bug clear to the public so in a sense we should thank Deathy for shedding ligh onto the gamebreaking bug.
Well, it's a grey area. Sometimes it goes in your favor, sometimes it doesn't. At the end of the day, there is no point in complaining if you wouldn't expect the other team to. Besides, as a hobby game dev and professional software dev, my opinion is that it's a bug. Otherwise they wouldn't have disabled teleporting with the urn as a hotfix. It's also a bit nonsensical to have the expectation of the TOs knowing and listing EVERY mechanic or interaction, and whether it's banned or not. For reasons you described, and others. We just have to use common sense. Either way, it's a learning opportunity for the TO. There shouldn't be a grey area. Either decision they make at that point, irritates someone.
If picking up urn with a channeled spell is bug abuse, what about paradox charging the carbine + urn? what about kelvin ice skate + urn? people being bug abusing since months ago with even noticing
Because there is counterplay to those strategies, as while they lessen the risk of delivering the urn tremendously they don't completely remove it since you can still be shot, hooked, knockdown, time swapped, chased, killed or if people see the urn's been taken they have time to go to the drop-off point to try and interrupt or claim souls, and in the case of Ivy for instance her using her ult is signaled to the entire player population of the match allowing for people to counter her accordingly. Mirage is a unique instance where not only is his ult not signaled as the point of that ult is to catch enemies off-guard but it also makes the urn delivery instantaneous resulting in no risk of interruption for the mirage player and their team, unless the opposing team psychically predicts that mirage will TP the urn and in turn preemptively set up an ambush at the drop-of point which very much isn't exactly a consistent counter strategy. Valve removing this strat in the latest patch when tp urn was already made purposely extremely difficult furthers my point, it wasn't intended or balanced and so they removed it.
its not a bug its a mechanic and an oversight of the devs and should have been clearly talked about by the event organisers to the teams prior if they felt the need to class it as game breaking and ban its use
Honestly anyone trying to uphold competitive integrity to this degree is missing the plot. This is a PLAYTEST. Y’all need to relax and give feedback to the devs instead of starting tournaments and complaining like it’s a real problem. Love the content deathy
This isn't a bug with how the mechanics interact. Since the interaction is so powerful they should explicitly list and ban it if they don't want it in the event. Honestly I'm down for people abusing these mechanics if that gets more eyes on them for Valve to fix them in future patches.
An instant teleport for urn is more op than any of the other channels. Atleast with other channels you have a chance at fighting it but with mirage you don't. It can be seen as an exploit.
If I’m being honest here. You would’ve asked if you don’t think it as an exploit of bug. None of y’all did and was immediately defensive when the pause happened, so no need to push that narrative. HOWEVER, I do think it doesn’t warrant any punishment. Dendi got a TI champion using a game breaking bug, but it is part of the game and it is not up to you to follow some arbitrary code of conduct.
Accusing him of lying and intentionally trying to cheat is kind of a stretch considering the established precedent that running urn with all other movement abilities was allowed, and the only place it was stated that it was disallowed was a single message in the help channel on the TO discord server. Even though it's an incredibly strong mechanic, I wouldn't have thought twice about whether it was considered legitimate considering that the devs had already known before they even added Mirage to the game that players use every other channeled movement ability in the game for running urn. Kind of unfair to accuse him of "pushing a narrative" lol
Considering all channels work with this I don't believe it is a bug. It is cheap and I think they should change the mechanic in the future. They should have made the ruling more well communicated to the players.
I don't see it as a bug, they have had plenty of time to stop that from happening in recent patches, its been a thing for a while with I've, haze, etc if they didn't want it to be a feature they would have patched it out, Its just some characters are more effective than others with it, ivy for example has always been pretty strong with urn.
I agree with the 1st comment. If you can channel it in game, it's not a bug. It's an alpha game and maybe they'll change silence to cancel channels (which they should) in the future. Until then. You can teleport w the urn
The urn thing is weird. Like it doesn't seem like a bug and it's fine if haze turns invisible and runs with urn, but you obviously shouldn't be able to just insta tp it
For all the interactions (magic carpet, ivy, mo & krill) that can happen i've never even been thinking about it, because it's on the map, can go to the opposite side of the map to counter, can kill them and can react, there is room. This one ... nah chief this is straight up broken beyond repair, there is 0 counter isn't there ? You don't have time to see the urn on the map spawn, i don't think you can even get the notification "an enemy picked the urn" and there is no way you could ever react and counter it by killing or damaging. The only counter i can think of would be "be there ahead of time, guess it and protect the urn's area 24/7 in hope it doesn't happen" ? You could argue "but you need 2 players" but that's a little too small for a zero counter free souls isn't it ? I understand the penalty, though it falls more into "the game is so early, new character is not well known, it happens whatever" and definitely imo not bad sportsmanship or anything ^^ Honestly i'm glad you bring those topics, like double soaking and this urn TP because it allows for players to learn, share thoughts and for the devs to hear feedback and fix those things !
@@godlyvex5543 Yeah i'll admit i didn't see the video entirely (watched like 80% of it) before commenting : the fact in the question channel it was asked, and the organizers didn't make it in the rules is a bit dumb ^^" i guess they forgot but you can't expect every players of every teams to read every messages in every channel, bit silly
Not a bug nor abuse, people voted for Mirage to be included knowing that Ivy and other characters could do the same. Reasons like these are why extremely new characters are banned from tournament play, because interactions are not fully explored. It may not have been intended at the time, we don't know, what we do know that it didn't break any rule or game/engine logic at the time it was done. If it was not explicitly banned then it was working as intended, as it shares the same mechanics as the other characters' abilities. This is just the way of early-in-development games and these interactions are unfortunately something you have to accept as a tournament player or organizer, specially if you voted in favor of Mirage being able to be picked, his kit was not a secret and everyone voted with full knowledge of what his ult does (assuming you are serious enough about tournament play). If you did know about it and thought it was too OP, you express that sentiment to the TO and other teams and make the rule beforehand.
There needs to be a list of specifics, and the organizers should be able to change the rules at their leisure as long as everyone is 100% clear on the changes. Then there should be a penalty, re-do, etc if there is a violation of the sort. Ultimately it is up to the organizers to decide what they want though. If their judgement is ignorant- they will deal with the consequences. The players just gotta deal with it in the moment. If the rules seemed vague (2:00)- questions should've been asked. I do think your take on allowing the game to naturally play out (like new characters, etc) is good for the game and it needs to happen. Idk how the prize pool money was put together- so that's also relevant on my moral perspective lol. Anyways, hope it all gets figured out :)
My 2 cents about the situation and urn movement is that it should be consistent for abilities and items. Maybe it's been fixed but a good example of a character with a channeled ability for urn is viscous since you can use your ult to go in ball form and just roll across the map (with high resistances, and increased movement speed) and it's much harder to kill him in that form making it a very fast and easy urn. What about someone high up in the air using rescue beam on someone with urn then instantly cancelling it so they have insane momentum to fly them across the map? Or what about just using fleetfoot/divine barrier on yourself before hand for insane movement speed. It feels wrong to make certain abilities and only certain abilities not interact with Urn but allow others. Mirage is the first real outlier of this situation since he can instantly TP across to Urn drop off which does seem unfair compared to previous strong units to help with urn. Creating slight exceptions to the rules feels wrong imo and it should be all or nothing. Either let everyone use their channeled abilities, or be interacted by from teammates abilities, or items, or don't let them being affected at all (think of like a reverse unstopabble where they can only rely on their characters current move speed/spring speed and can't be interacted with by teammates for positive buffs) In Overwatch theres a bunch of rules which are almost always entirely true. Junkerqueens knife pull does not follow the tank knockback resistance and Illari has full headshot damage against tanks who are supposed to take less damage from headshots. So it creates all of these little microrules within the rules itself and it makes things excessively complicated when they shouldn't be.
First off, it is definitely considered a bug now since Valve fixed this 16 hours ago (5 hours before you uploaded this video) Personally when I compete I would think about this kind of stuff and ask beforehand. In a smaller Moba I competed in my team did just that but I think we were the minority in doing so. As other people in the comments did I would also blame the tournament organisers for bad communication. I think they handled your situation well only giving out a small penalty.
A: Not proof it's a bug. Could have been intentional, and they got enough complaints to fix it. Unless they make a statement otherwise, you can't declare their motivations. I haven't read the patch notes though, so if they say it's a bug, then sure. B: If they can patch Mirage doing this out, they should do it for all the other Urn/movement glitch characters.
I mean yeah, it's clearly not a "bug", if anything, it's probably a "missing mechanic" in the sense that they added the hero with the teleport but probably didn't think of that use case yet, so they will probably just make the Urn cancel all channeling abilities at the moment of pickup.. pretty easy "fix"
I think that this definitely falls upon the the to for not making things clear enough. Also if they’re going to ban his ult off of it then they should also ban anything else that shouldn’t be used on it
If it wasn't clearly stated in the rules it should been allowed. Since it wasn't at the time you played you doing it is totally acceptable and TO should update a clear rule list with unallowed interactions with a ping to all team leaders.
Trying to be as neutral as one can: Might be hard as a TO cause if you write too little people will try to bend the rules; if you specify what is not OK new stuff might appear and you won't be able to respond to it; if you add a clause mentioning that bugs not yet known will be judged at the moment, the long pause necessary to make the judgement itself will destroy the game momentum and can be exploited by ill-intended teams. Having a list of all bugs also seems unrealistic since dev teams sharing that is really bad for the company. Also ppl saying that everything is intended by the devs in a game on closed beta: lmao I don't think you showed lack of sportsmanship. But at the same time, I think that the small penalty was the correct call by the TO cause your team didn't know about the bug but the other team did, so just letting it go without any kind of penalty would be worse from a tournament point of view if all the team members had access to the questions channel, since the other teams would also be busy during the tournament but they knew about it anyway. Kinda makes it look like just your team ignored the rules. The communication on the server can definitely be improved tho. All replies by the TO should tag all captains, and if the captain is not capable of checking all pings about a tournament, someone else in the team should be in charge of the information gathering.
Too early in the games life to be making arbitrary rules limiting characters abilities. Its like saying Yamato vaulting mid power slash is a bug and clearly not intended since theres no animation for it
I think its wild you thought this was an intended mechanic, im happy they nerfed it, its not the same as ivy doing urn where not only u can run to drop off, but also react to it. Vs mirage its instant and the sound for his ult is quite asf
You shouldn't be able to channel any ability to run the urn. It is clearly designed to disable all your abilities and your gun so that you have to cross the whole map while being vulnerable. Your team has to protect you or you need to preemptively drop the urn to be able to fight an enemy. Being able to use a movement ability right before actially picking the urn up I think is a bug/exploit because of the clear game design of the urn.
Definitely not abuse in my book. Everyone knows how it works and clearly someone programmed the game that way. Mirage was just a bit busted on launch for me and they should probably remove the channel window all together.
i'm sorry but million dollar tourneys have been won off more egregious bugs than that. the rules said "game breaking bug" and an unintended gameplay loophole is not a game breaking bug. game breaking implies it actually breaks the game (for example, going something that makes everyone's game slow down to a crawl, or causes someone to fall through a floor, etc.) people are constantly doing small ""exploits"" that give them an advantage in competitive games, rules must be better defined, its not unreasonable for anyone to otherwise do "thing I know you can do that gives you an advantage", that's standard.
@@micy9308 I can TP to mid boss and steal the rejuvenator activate unstoppable and refresher and TP out again, and leave with zero consequences to my team, are we now going to get a no TP zone in the Pit? stop being so soft making the game playable for everyone, that is just a less fun game. People like you who don't like skill checks can go play Animal Crossing.
there's a lot of things in game that are bugs but actually increase skill ceiling like animation cancelling when punching etc. imo they shouldn't patch some stuff like that. I think the urn is clearly unintentional because if you were allowed to tp with the urn then they would just make it so you can cast certain abilities while having it but then it would probably create a new set of loads of problems for the devs just like fixing this current one probably will. Did you keep doing it after the first time they paused it tho ?
"no bug abuse" isn't a real rule. you have to specify which bugs are allowed and which aren't, because some bugs are always allowed. this is on the TOs for not being clear about what is and is not allowed.
Not clear enough in the ruleset. Should have paused and let the refs specifically ban it then and there. Then all future instances should be penalized.
They should remove the bugs its stupid that you can use abilities with the urn. Its unintentional, but I think the ruleset should not be a thing. they should remove all bugs themselves and not make the players question their actions.
i do this with haze all the time I zoom across the map while invisible. I say it's cheap but both teams (if they have a character for it) has the opportunity to do it
How could using an ability in a situation that the devs I believe would have considered when creating this ultimate be a bug? Enemy team can see urn is up and that mirage has ultimate up. There is counter play to it.
Two issues I see: 1) This is why Mirage should have been banned from the matches. It is impossible to know what weird stuff the new character can cause leading to feelings of unfairness. 2) As a more general issue, being able to transport the urn by yourself instead of with a teammate feels like it goes against the idea of this being a team game. It is one thing to do it with some level of skill, but being able to freely just teleport to the urn is just silly.
It wasnt a bug, just a bad interaction. It shouldnt be called bug abuse in this case. That doesnt however mean it should be allowed, but it should have been claified inthink that it wasnt allowed since im pretty sure it was a well known interaction on day 1 of the mirage update.
Ngl shit like this happening makes the entire tournament org look like a complete joke. Channeling on urn has been in the game since forever, but now it's suddenly banned and you should know? Bull shite.
Allowing Ivy to channel and take the urn, vs Mirage taking the urn is totally different. Sure it is the same idea of channeling an ability, but in the end game balance is the essential difference. One is SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful than the other one. I don't think you did something wrong by doing this mechanic since its part of the game and clearly NOT a bug. It is simply an overpowered mechanic that probably shouldn't have been put in the game in the first place and the organizers should have been much clearer and louder about things that aren't bugs but cannot be done.
Ivy can be shot down or CCd while she is travelling very slowly Also she shouts her ult to the whole map making it obvious when you hear a random ivy ult without seeing her anywhere on the map
I think those are bugs. I think channeling any ability while picking up the urn is a bug, given you have to finagle the timing. But having an ally kelvin create an ice path for the urn carrier is okay, if that is what you meant for him.
If mirage couldn’t use bugs then why would he have scarabs as an ability
If anything, there needs to be more specific rules on what is allowed. If something gives a competitive advantage, any serious team would abuse it.
If they wanted to change the rules last minute for a specific interaction. They have to let everyone know. A single message does not cut it. For a situation like this, I would have gotten everyone in a call and made sure they understood this interaction was not allowed.
The current game lets you use Kinetic carbine, fleetfoot, and ice path before picking up the urn. I see know reason why an ultimate ability would be different. I think the devs understood this, but did not fully consider the ramifications, which is why they patched it a couple of days later.
I think eventually, it will be changed that so the urn curses you, so that it will stop any channel abilities.
so wait, you can't tele with it anymore?
@@Moss_Dude yep patch on 29.09: Urn now drops when teleporting with Mirage's Traveler
They should make this curse change as fast as possible
@@guilhermedecarvalhofernand1629 yeah the curse should stack faster , have higher base damage , but less scaling , with 150 spirit each stacks goes from 26 to 86 , a 12 stack deals around 1000 dmg , it might sound broken but it takes 8 seconds of perfect timing to get it i think making it 6 seconds and dealing a bit lower dmg is more reasonable and make the character feel more reliable
@@MrRafagigapr we are talking about picking up the urn cursing you, not the item itself so you cannot use channel skill/items with it
Honestly, they should not let any channel abilities work on urn. However, if other things like ivy, haze smoke bomb etc. is allowed, then this should be, even though it clearly stronger. It's neither an exploit nor should you be penalised for it. Instead, it should be patched out to prevent things like this, but as long as they don't, then honestly it should be free game.
Clearly not. All of these can be reacted to eventhough they gain movement speed or flight sure but TP is instant there is no counterplay to this except constantly camping the dropoff point as soon as the urn is up.
Today's patch made it explicit impossible, so it (at least this specific case) was unintentional
@@AeneaSXI or delivering the urn yourself? if you can't control 1 urn point out of 2 you deserve to lose the urn
This was patched today, so it was a bug. It's the admin's fault for not making it clearer.
@@Dani-of2zu being changed does not mean it was a bug, it means they don't want it in the game.
In Dota there was a bug called fountain hook(there are many documentary about it if you are interested), NaVi abused fountain hook in The International the biggest prizepool tournament in the world at that time. NaVi was surely going to lose against TongFu the chinese team. NaVi didn't abuse it once but several times till they comeback and win the game.
Other Eu and NA teams were so pissed, they were literally cursing at them when they got out of booth. TongFu the chinese team was abviously sad, but they said they knew that bug, everyone knew about that bug, they could abuse it or anyone else could. We lost. Loss is a loss.
But also there is a CSGO scenario called olof boost. Which is not a bug IMO. Team fnatic was going to lose. But they abused a 3 man boost to control a section of a map without being seen. They came back and won the match. But they got disqualified for it. It was clearly not a bug, but map knowledge. And they are literally using 60% of the team to do it. Other team could rush somewhere else. But they still got disqualified. Idk what's right what's wrong. IMO Ruleset should be really specific about what's bug or not. If the bug me and my team found is not in the ruleset, we should be allowed to use it. I have spent time in game to find it out. Maybe I found it because I found it based on luck. But there is always a luck factor in every sport.
@@CTSstreams2 the olofboost was disallowed because it was abusing what's called a pixelwalk... Essentially one of the players in the boost was standing on thin air... Or what was supposed to be thin air... And Dreamhacks ruleset did not allow for the abuse of this which is why Fnatic was DQ'ed.
Also Fnatic weren't really DQ'ed, it was ruled that the half would be replayed the next day, and then Fnatic also accused LDLC of also using a pixelwalk on their CT side, which although not as impactful was still a pixelwalk... So in the end the whole map was supposed to be replayed, but then Fnatic just forfeited the game, probably because the PR was terrible...
This is purely a TO issue. Things have to be defined better and no rule update should be hidden in a random discord text channel.
The TO doesn't have to much experince with this and that's okay, they will learn and improve.
But you as a player haven't done anything wrong.
In other games, tournaments have a list of bugs that cannot be used. If the tournament is big enough to have some dev support, you may get a list of known bugs from them to fill. Additionally to all of those there are some umbrela terms added, so like "bugs alowing instant relocation", or "bugs allowing access to otherwise inaccessible parts of the map".
valve bugs are notoriously abused in highest level of tourney but unless they specify any ingame abuse is usable as per valve. look up fountain hook abuse. this was done in a million dollar tourney and navi won using this.
This is by far the least impactful bug that has been used in a valve game tournament. Pudge
Fountain hook during ti is one of the biggest ones that I can think of.
Or the famous Olafpass boost
As far as i recall the bug itself had barely any impact on their victory. You could only use it so often and you still had to hit the hooks. If you missed a hook, well you ended up in your fountain and had to either teleport back to a lane or walk. So you either lost time or your tp went on cooldown.
But what you need to remember with each bug is that how game breaking they are. This bug for example required a very precise timing and you also had to hit the hooks, so it wasnt really game breaking.
@@Ex0rz brother u watched that ti? that bug literally won them the game. they fountain hooked enemy carry late game. they were doing it quite consistently. dendi and his prime pudge days
Neither fountain hooks nor traveler+urn are bugs, just creative use of game mechanics. Hook is clear, it pulls people towards pudge, so if you teleport while they're flying they get pulled to the teleport destination. Same with traveler, traveler moves you across the map, the urn wants to be carried across the map, the fact that silences don't interrupt channels means that you can pick up the urn while channeling.
If you can't explore these things in a competitive setting how are we ever supposed to determine that they are too strong? I think that the game should be explored in its fullest right now unless something is very clearly FUBAR. To me it's super lame they just immediately said no to this based on some guy's judgement that this was OP and unintended.
Since it was patched out, their judgement was correct that this was unintended.
@@VaaaaadimThey had a point in this instance, but the point still stands.
It is a closed alpha so making hasty bans under the pretense that it's too strong is not particularly a good mindset when it comes to testing out the balance, you gotta let shit rock and notify the devs when it turns out pitiful or problematically powerful.
@@Bonehead_Paladin Genuine question: what is the procedure, as a dev, for deciding to allow this interaction to stay or be patched out.
How much time should pass before you make a verdict... a few days, a week, a month?
What metrics do you use to make this verdict?
And there is a trade-off between waiting longer to be more certain it's too strong vs players not having fun playing against it.
In my view, it was a pretty safe choice for this interaction to be patched out. My justification would be that I can scarcely imagine
any method nearly as strong to come about for securing the urn, short of egregious bugs like glitching under the map, and only
one team can have mirage in a match. When it seems this clear-cut, why wait longer for it to spread, people waste time learning
it, people waste time confirming its not fun to play against. If players think devs made the wrong choice by patching it out, they
can vocalize their opinions.
@@Vaaaaadim It's pretty commonplace for things to take days or weeks, maybe even months and years to get noticed or judged as bad for the health of a game as metas, strong strategies and counterplay rarely appears overnight, as new mechanics, items and characters get added they can shift the balance of a game, but you can only know through patient observation how they do it.
So to put it in numbers, I'd say a week is pretty much the minimum time I'd usually give something before trying to rebalance it unless it's an immediate problem. But take it with a grain of salt as I'm not a game designer or balance nut, just someone who's really passionate.
@@Vaaaaadim if you look at the patch notes, it doesnt even say "fixed" (implying a bug fix). the change could be easily interpreted as a balance change. literally noone can say that the interaction was intended or not except the developers themselves.
if ivy can self fly the shit over i think mirage shouldnt have been nerfed in this recent patchupdate. make it so ivy cant channel the urn either
But Ivy still needs to fly over and people can react to it. Mirage tp is instant. Not compareable at all.
@@AeneaSXI how do you react to an eve carrying the urn at full speed?? It's almost the same thing
self fly should be fixed. even if we ignore that, ivy needs like 10 seconds and whole map hears him you. you can't react to Mirage, only camp
@@Jorge_2106 curse, knockdown, bebop hook, paradox swap, just kill her lol. Slowing Hex any type of root
@@ДімаКрасько-с7мivy literally shouts her ult to the whole map :D
The TO just didn't think of it lmao. and the moment it was brought up it was the TO's responsibility to tag the relevant people. You can't mind read and you can't be expected to be hawk watching the chat. You CAN ping someone and let them know about a rule though.
It’s certainly cheesy but I wouldn’t call it a bug, more like “unfinished mechanic”, stepping on the urn perhaps should not only just silence you but also interrupt abilities
That reduces the “pubness” aka the “fun”, but that absolutely makes for more fair competitive
i agree with this, either you allow it or not allow it at all. so it doesn't seem vague.
i want a pubby game tho
So they mean for you to NOT cast when you have the urn, and unintentionally, a cast still finishes when you pick it up. It's a bug.
Football ref be like "Yeah, I sent the opponent's coach a Twitter DM saying tackling is illegal on my field. How did you not know this??? smh."
except it was in a questions section that is open to them. Its like the football ref puts out a "questions about what is allowed in this tournament" section and the coaches just ignore it and then do whatever in the game and if they get called off they say "but how should I have known? Noone sent me a personal DM".
@@AeneaSXI but it's not "questions about what is allowed" it's questions about anything, from when each match is to who's playing to what the prize pool is and the format and so on. there's entirely way too many messages in that channel to ask every coach to sift through all of them, especially when sometimes questions result in long conversations that can veer off-topic. it's absolutely on the tournament organisers to alert teams if there's something they realise wasn't clarified before that they need to know. in a playtest game with a new tournament, there's just no way the initial rules are gonna be absolutely comprehensive, and as a tournament organsier you need to account for and adapt to that. it's gonna be messy, that's fine, but you have to be able to patch things up as you go.
@@iyabiya8716 Sure I give you that. And that is probably also the reason why they weren't heavily penalised for it. Still he could have known if he really wanted to. Catgirl managed to now didn't she?
@AeneaSXI the person asking the question generally gets "replied" to which pings you. Not pinging the other captains is the problem.
I feel like being able to use channeled abilities while picking up the urn should be considered an exploit, that seems really unfair. I don't know if that's something on the dev's list of eventual fixes, but I would say using an ability should preclude picking up the urn, rather than be used simultaneously. If the dev's hadn't considered fixing that before, I'd hope they're considering it now with Mirage's teleport. That's pretty broken.
Yup, no matter what ability it is should be considered an exploit.
exploit, maybe, bug, no. unless they do consider channel usage during urn pickup a bug in general, but you can see why this wouldn't be thought to be a bug considering they haven't fixed it for such a long time despite it being a known thing
Known exploit and the game still allows ivy self cast and haze smoke bomb to work. As far as I’m concerned it’s just another thing for the enemy team to watch out for. Urn just landed and mirage is spotted close on mini map, send a few over to delivery point and get ready for an early fight.
It's an exploit but not the responsibility of the players to not exploit it unless explicitly told
Yea penalties for this is WILD considering how many things are in the same wheelhouse
I would consider something in the same wheelhouse if it achieves the same thing. Instantly taking the urn is a high bar to clear.
That said I still agree with other commenters that the TOs communicated poorly but giving out that small penalty was fine.
@@Wav3x3on Is being able to pop speed items and ice skate or fly it over, or do it invisibly, *exactly* the same thing? No. But does it amount to the same result well over 90% of the time? Pretty much. If they fixed Mirage, they should fix the others too. The only real preventative measure against any of these strategies is to take the urn first. Urn should silence AND clear any currently active buffs or abilities. Equal opportunity carry, save for higher base speed or bulkiness.
@@chadcharest9891 I think Urn should be challenging. We'll definitely see something like this in the future. It already gives a native speed buff and can be dropped fairly free of cost. Urn might not even make it to full release, or it might look very different.
Ngl, putting this all on the TO when Deathy was told about this once ( ruclips.net/user/liveeNhQ5LwCwMg?si=QzRJf1WOsl0WptH1&t=4165 ) and then asked about (in the clip he shared) by a teammate before the match feels pretty disengenuous. Ignoring both those interactions kinda makes it feel like he was just trying to get away with something by not confirming it (ask forgiveness not permission).
Basically, if I was ever competing in anything and someone told me they heard a very specific thing wasn't allowed, then a teammate asked me if that thing was allowed, and then instead of looking to confirm... I just did the thing, that's (at least partially) on me.
He's not dumb, he obv. knew this was questionable, but as a competitor you are going to walk the line of the rules as much as you can to get an advantage. Happens in literally every pro sport, regardless if people don't like the outcome.
Are you sure? The clip you linked is from 5 days ago, but the twitch stream of this game was 6 days ago. I think he was discussing why it wasn't allowed AFTER he did it.
@brubie7584 They both happened 5 days ago. The footage playing while he's talking is the tourney as it's happening. You can rewind it and see them tuning into the stream. (You can also go to the "Live" section of his YT channel to see the VOD of this exact game marked 5 days ago. )
The Urn just needs to be changed so it prevents any kind of ability usage immediately when stepping onto it.
I'm with you on this one. The tournament organiser saying that something is disallowed in a random Q&A with no exhaustive communication does not officially disallow it.
On top of what I said in the previous comment, I think that although mirage is the top user of the “channelurn”, if haze, carpet, burrow etc allowed, then mirage should be as well, either that, or disallow everything from the list
Its should not be illegal or bannable.
Because you still need map control and a teammate and time the channeling of the skill and that skill is an ult.
No, it shouldn't be allowed. It's literally a bug. Proof is it literally got patched yesterday as the tournament was going on. Yes, rules should be clearer, but it should indeed not be allowed to abuse bugs.
@@Dani-of2zu I’m not sure I would categorise it as a bug, many other characters can still pick up the urn while channeling abilities. It’s definitely unintended but if it was a bug they would surely “fix” kelvin and ivy being able to do it.
@@Dani-of2zu That is issue with making tournament with game that is not fully out. They are constantly patching and modifying things. Like they delteed double dipping for lanes and now they turned it back on. Sometimes it can be quite hard to say what is a bug and what is not unless it is really broken thing.
@@Dani-of2zu the patch was a change, not a bugfix. it's not a bug because it's consistent with how every other channeled ability works. the patch changing it makes it an outlier in that it no longer works. you can debate whether that change was the right call to make or not but if you say it's a bug that's just categorically wrong
this should definitely not get you punished. every top player, all experienced players, and everyone who watches skilled games has known you could do this with the urn for a very long time. i'm surprised the devs didn't change the mechanic or this characters ult, given how easy it makes urn, but they didn't, so teams should have been ready to ban mirage or pick mirage themselves if they think this is so strong. additionally, you said the competitors even got to vote on if this character is allowed, and they voted yes lmao
i think what makes this game fun is these kind of possibilities
yeah I don't see the issue.
"they have Mirage we must watch the urn spawn point not delivery point" is not a game-breaking issue in organized play, and in pubs Mirage is not getting such good coordination with his teammates to perform this flawlessly.
@@burndly exactly, and the urn is just a small advantage, not like its gonna turn the whole match around
If kelvin run etc is allowed, this should be. Personally i'd rather all should be disallowed since the seemingly intended way is to run with it, but then ivy ulting an ally carrying the urn and similar scenarios becomes a grey area. Would be nice to hear from the devs how they intend the mechanic to work just for clarity of how we should approach it in tournaments and competitions.
definetly an oversight in several points of view.
The balancing department should take action regarding this character, maybe making it so you cannot capture nor drop the urn after teleporting for a certain ammont of time or smthng.
And from the Tournament perspective, If the Chat where the "bug" was stated was not a mandatory read, there is no way to guarantee that everyone is going to be in the same page regarding this gray areas.
I think it's definitely on the devs and organizers what is and isn't allowed. In dota 2 the wisp teleport fountain hook bug was used to win an international worth millions of dollars in prize money and the losing team understandably to this day feels they were cheated by Navi for it. The urn teleport here is cheese but it's also a mechanic in the game that is honestly less abusable than that situation so hm... Deciding what tech we wish to allow and disallow is always a weird thing.
timing a 100ms channel to urn pickup definitely *seems* unintended, or is a bug, regardless of which hero does it. As far as the tournament, they just gotta clarify that shit bruh. Make a bug ban list, and if a new one pops up mid tourney, pause the whole shibang and ban the bug right there for all further game time.
Current patch allows it, so it should be a legit feature, but in the future, they should fix it and DO NOT ALLOW any abilitie while picking the urn. Delivering the urn is a mechanic that have a high reward, so the teams should be able to contest it.
In pro/semi-pro valorant in the rule book there are known bugs, with screenshots and all of that exemplifying what you can and cannot abuse, showing what is intended and what is off limits, I know it's different to weight bugs in an alpha game when the organizers have nothing to do with the game, but with a strong community TOs can make a generic rule-set with all the known examples screenshoted and with their description, and don't even bother updating old stuff just let it be there if the bug comes back or someone later find something similar with another hero they can immediately point to the rules.
My personal take as a rando that has 100+ hours in this game but no real competitive experience in gaming is that it was doubly mishandled by the TOs. Before ragging on them, good on them for having a tournament, I think stuff like this especially this early is a big deal and will help get eyes that aren’t already on the game look at it when they otherwise wouldn’t have. I just have trouble believing that wasn’t something that immediately came to mind when they found out Mirages kit and he was decided to be allowed. If the questions chat is where they’re expanding on what is and isn’t allowed, the teams need to be clearly communicated that. Honestly I don’t think there should have been any repercussions since they didn’t ensure that at least one person on every team was tracking that the urn-and-TP wasn’t allowed. There’s no question that it’s a super powerful play, which I think just makes it worse on the TOs in this situation. With there being history of utilizing an ability before the silence effect hits, I don’t think it’s reasonable to force players to self-police for fear of committing a violation. I have faith that the TOs and future TOs of other events will reflect on this and see the need for some clarification on these “abusable” situations, but I really feel this is on the line and tournaments are competitive environments, so of course you’re doing to do what you think is allowed so that you’re supporting your team to the best of your ability.
TL;DR there needs to be clearer communication at least on things that could borderline bugs, and no violation should have been given. The interaction was very straightforward so I don’t see why the TOs wouldn’t call it out immediately.
If stuff like Ivy flight and magic carpet is allowed in the same situation, it makes no sense for teleport not to be. The impact may be different, but the mechanic being used is the exact same.
This specific interaction was op since there is no way at all to prevent this without receiving any penalty in map control because it is instant and the teamates do not need to leave their lanes. All the other cases with channel abilities do not act like that in the context of the game.
Now, thr question is, should channel habilities still be used with the urn? L think no so the devs need to change it to curse the user instead, otherwise any exploit similar to this that can happen in the future will be used again. And they do not feel intended to be used in most of the ways you cause them to happen .
Now the punish in the tournament is more at fault for the organizers not making sure every leader knows for sure they know this is banned.
To me it's not a bug, it's a consistent interaction that works the same as all other abilities. If you are competing it is natural that you would use favorable mechanics to your advantage. If it's not explicitly in the rules you shouldn't be afraid to take advantage of mechanics that help you. If anything this is a learning experience for the tournament organizers.
You said there are no bad feeling but I feel awful!
Thanks for the video
bro i thought about trying this out but thinking "theres absolutely no way valve didn't see this coming", but alas, its valve
Gaben said Fountain Hooks were okay in TI so I don't see the problem
Hey Deathy, I was tuned in for your livestream titled "TOURNAMENT POV - NO INTERACTION." At the 20:30 mark, speaking on this issue, you said no, it wasn't a bug, but then you specifically said "the tournament organizers said to try not to do it." This was before the match in question, by the way.
For that reason, given that you went ahead and did it anyway, it really looks like you were trying to exploit what you saw as a grey area in the rules. I consider it a lot worse, though, that you're now trying to pass it off as an honest mistake, as if you had no idea this might not be allowed.
I can hazard a pretty good guess as to why the organizers didn't rigidly encode this as a rule: if you got jumped by an opponent while picking up the urn, and panic ulted, the net result is you just TP'd with the urn, without really intending to. That probably shouldn't be an automatic disqualification; most sports allow rules to be broken without immediately ending the game in a default. But from the footage you've shown in this video, you set out specifically to TP with the urn as a deliberate play, willfully ignoring what the organizers had said on the matter, and now you're feigning ignorance. It's not a good look.
Hey first of all thanks for the comment. I went back and checked to VOD because honestly, I didn't remember that. In the VOD, I say "Yeah, I've done it. I don't think it's a bug. I think the TOs said to try not to do it...", then 10 seconds later I say "I don't know if the TOs actually said that." I actually didn't remember that at all, and yeah to be fair, that does make the case against me significantly worse.
To go further, I looked into all discord channels and documentation that I could find, and the only mention of the urn tp not being allowed is the one in the questions channel, which had no yet been posted at the time of my vod yesterday. Most likely I heard from someone that it *might* not be allowed. That's my best guess anyway.
In any case, I do fully admit I am AT MINIMUM partly at fault (if not fully), so I'm not looking to blame the TOs or anything, and I've spoken to Alju and Bottom Barrels and all is chill. To respond to the last part of your comment, they *did* encode it as a rule LATER (much later than when I said something on stream), they just didn't @ Team Captains or anything. The rule was encoded roughly 30 minutes before our match, without any clear warning or official announcement - hence the confusion.
Thanks for the comment! Hopefully that clears things up :)
Bro is just making stuff up. It's an honest mistake, you shouldn't mind it, especially if you didn't even participate in the tournament
@@filipgasic2642 "you shouldn't care if you didn't participate in the tournament" is a terrible take, of course.
also the first part, as material reality clearly shows, he was in fact not making stuff up. This entire comment is unserious.
I'd personally suggest dropping the parasocial hero worship/defense, and the internet detective bit for that matter.
besides that, this is a nothingburger.
@algumnomeaihehe I'm not parasocial about a random deadlock streamer, but that's your only defense against me. OP wrote an essay about someone who didn't know something. It's pointless... because he didn't know. I just don't like pretentious people, which OP certainly is and that's the main reason i responded.
Fake drama, for views. Must be rough out here as a deadlock youtuber. Literally every single person in "top 0.0000000000001%" mmr land knows how the urn works. Everyone at that tournament knew the implications of not banning mirage and that this could happen. Its so trite and annoying i felt compelled to type this out so congrats on your $1 you made off of youtube engagement from me.
Unless Valve makes a statement that this isn't working as intended (And in which case they need to fix it with Ivy/Kelvin etc as well because those are also crazy strong if slightly weaker). You can't say it's a 'bug' if it's working as intended. These just add additional strategies. Like, if there is a Mirage/Kelvin/Ivy on the opposing team, go for the Urn harder. They can't cheese it if they don't have it.
After that, it's up to the Tournament Organizers. If they didn't mention it, and the game lets it happen, it's allowed. And if they said you can't teleport it, but you can use other ability cheese effects, I'd argue against it.
All or none, let the meta sort it out. I'd be fine either way.
Tournament organizers do of course have the right to set whatever rules they want so whether it's a bug or not is inconsequential, but this whole debacle was definitely a lesson to them in how to properly communicate those rules.
I totally agree with you. Between the nature of the tournament being small and community run, the early state of the game, competitive nature of the players, and lack of explicit clarity, something like this could easily happen. Did you do that strat again in that game once they complained? If not I think it's totally fine, not a big deal.
it's absolutely up to the organizers to communicate clearly, there is a level of due diligence on the captain side but ultimately when it comes down to it it is up to the organizers to clearly convey the rules. Instead of just saying abusing bugs, list some examples of major bugs or interactions that are not allowed and possibly even just list everything that comes to mind, everything not on the list you can pause, ask an admin for the verdict, then if it gets added to the list it's banned for the rest of the tourney, if you do it again you get punished for real. Anything that has been clarified like the urn tp should be listed for sure. Obviously there is some common sense here where if a team is deliberately targeting exploits that are not on the list one by one and going "it's not on the list so just give us a warning and move on" then maybe it's time to do something else but if it's just an honest mistake it's way different.
Glitch vs. Bug vs. Exploit:
Glitch - when the hardware itself makes an error in values, causing unexpected results
Bug - when a part of a program is not working as intended
Exploit - when intended, properly-functioning systems are used in unintended ways.
Glitches are hard to reproduce and aren't acceptable to reproduce in any competitive scene. Bugs are always banned as it consistently breaks the game in unfair methods.
Exploits are oftentimes comparatively minor in game impact and typically become a notorious part of the game's skill and enjoyment, while the exceptionally outstanding exploits are often patched or explicitly banned in competitive settings
Mirage's urn teleport is undoubtably an exploit as unfair as it was. As such it has been patched outright by the devs.
The whole point of tournament rules is to prevent behaviour that competitors consider unfair, especially things that have not been patched yet, or are difficult/impossible to patch, or that the devs do not intend to patch. I think it's totally okay for the organisers to arbitrarily decide what is best for the competitive integrity of the matches, but it is up to them to communicate everything ahead of time, and not to punish first-time infringements harshly if nothing was clearly stated.
I think this situation was handled fairly well, though I think the organisers could have more clearly communicated a list of things they consider unfair and notified players. And if we're really stretching it, you probably could have paused before you doing it and quickly clarified with the admins in private, since you had some doubts that it was totally okay.
I wouldnt call it a bug, more like a game design issue. The Devs should just make it so any movement ability drops the urn. Trying walk on Kevin's path should drop the urn. Get picked up by Ivy, drop. Teleport, drop.
TO needs to post clear rules, everyone agrees to the rules via esign or something, anything not in the rules is fair game.
This situation should be "Don't hate the player, Hate the game" moment.
Tournament organizers SHOULD inform all participants of game mechanics they don't wish to see in game. Ex (Teleport with Urn on Mirage)
Is it perfectly reasonable to teleport with Urn when there are many other items and abilities you can channel before picking up the Urn? I'd say so. Personally I didn't like the change valve made that Mirage drops the Urn when attempting a teleport. 1 Ability channel can't be used, but others can? Personally I think they should disable all channels while picking up the urn. Or make it so you become cursed 1 second before picking up the Urn. Make it consistant. Being able to move Urn in Goo Ball, Flying away with Ivy, and using Magic Carpet is also very strong.
To me it doesn't seem fair to be punished for something that wasn't written in the rules. Are players expected to ask for every possibly unintended mechanic in the game? Would there have still been a penalty if Catgirl hadn't happened to ask about it before the tournament?
99% of the blame is on the tournament organisers for not communicating properly, though I'm sure they've likely learned from this experience as well. At least the punishment was quite minor.
Wow that catgirl person is so smart and cute and adorable
My stance on this has always been the same: If it's in the game, it doesn't matter if it is done against me or in my favor, it's fair.
Yeah things like that should specifically be highlighted either on the tournament rules or pinged as an addition to the tournament rules.
Feel like there have been plenty of updates for this to be fixed, something as strong as urn capturing and its yet to be addressed, especially considering how openly people use the tech.
This is definetly a gamebreaking bug.
All of the channeling abilities that were mentioned before are atleast somewhat counterplayable, but the teleport is instant and can only be stopped if super specific measures were taken, e.g. players are constantly controlling both side of he Urn to stop the near instant TP.
I would say that Ivy's ult is as strong as an ability can be before it is considered gamebreaking, regarding he transportation of the urn.
Edit: maybe there shold be added a maximum speed debuff for a player carrying the Urn, that applies every second to bypass cleanses.
I personally think they should get rid of them all. Can you counter Ivy/Kelvin etc. carry? Sure. But it's also not simple, and generally requires specific characters or itemization and camping the urn and/or delivery with one or more characters. Or just getting the urn first, which also counters Mirage. Catching them part way while moving is pretty slim. And both are tanky enough that if they get to the other side they'll probably get the delivery anyway, though they'll die for it. Which often happens when hard-carrying the urn anyway, and can easily happen with Mirage. Yeah, Mirage carry would be the strongest, but these are also super strong.
Urn carrying with abilities gives a specific advantage to those characters in carrying the urn. If they had a *disadvantage* somewhere else to pay for it, then sure. Let them carry the urn for some reduction in overall stats. But they don't. The characters are *mostly* balanced - which is rather impressive all things considered.
@@chadcharest9891 I think you are making a great point and to be fair I agree with the idea that there should be minimal amounts of shenanigans related to the Urn carrying.
However, relative to the tournament rules I would say that a gamebreaking bug would be something that bypasses a mechanic fully. The only ability that almost completly nullifies the usage of the Urn is the Mirage ult. All the other abilities force the player to travel across the map (like how the urn was meant to be) in order for them to get the urn, hence the amount of game breaking imo would be consider a lot more severe in the Mirage TP incident. Also, Iv n kelvin for example, will be able to perform there movement enhancement for other players aswell, even if they wee not themselves carrying the Urn, so the mechanic already exists in a fair sense, but is technically a bug (which could be considerded gamebreaking but definetly not as gamebreaking as the mirage ult.)
I think it's good that Mirage got a big spotlight immedeatly in the tournament so that the developers for Deadlock instantly get good data on how to run the game.
The curiousity and creativity of the players also made the bug clear to the public so in a sense we should thank Deathy for shedding ligh onto the gamebreaking bug.
I think this would be strong enough that you should bring it up with TO. It's not a bug, but it's extremely unintended behavior
Well, it's a grey area. Sometimes it goes in your favor, sometimes it doesn't. At the end of the day, there is no point in complaining if you wouldn't expect the other team to. Besides, as a hobby game dev and professional software dev, my opinion is that it's a bug. Otherwise they wouldn't have disabled teleporting with the urn as a hotfix.
It's also a bit nonsensical to have the expectation of the TOs knowing and listing EVERY mechanic or interaction, and whether it's banned or not. For reasons you described, and others. We just have to use common sense. Either way, it's a learning opportunity for the TO. There shouldn't be a grey area. Either decision they make at that point, irritates someone.
If picking up urn with a channeled spell is bug abuse, what about paradox charging the carbine + urn? what about kelvin ice skate + urn? people being bug abusing since months ago with even noticing
Because there is counterplay to those strategies, as while they lessen the risk of delivering the urn tremendously they don't completely remove it since you can still be shot, hooked, knockdown, time swapped, chased, killed or if people see the urn's been taken they have time to go to the drop-off point to try and interrupt or claim souls, and in the case of Ivy for instance her using her ult is signaled to the entire player population of the match allowing for people to counter her accordingly.
Mirage is a unique instance where not only is his ult not signaled as the point of that ult is to catch enemies off-guard but it also makes the urn delivery instantaneous resulting in no risk of interruption for the mirage player and their team, unless the opposing team psychically predicts that mirage will TP the urn and in turn preemptively set up an ambush at the drop-of point which very much isn't exactly a consistent counter strategy.
Valve removing this strat in the latest patch when tp urn was already made purposely extremely difficult furthers my point, it wasn't intended or balanced and so they removed it.
Yeah the TOs definitely needed to do better with posting rulesets.
Good learning experience for all for sure!
I think the bigger issue was allowing mirage at all so soon after release. usually you want to give a brief moment to catch bugs/exploits like this
Hell, Mirage even had a voiceline commenting on it. Something along the lines of "That was efficient" when you did it before the patch.
its not a bug its a mechanic and an oversight of the devs and should have been clearly talked about by the event organisers to the teams prior if they felt the need to class it as game breaking and ban its use
I like your content, pretty straightforward. It was a slap on the wrist as it should be, nothing too crazy. Fuck those dislikes.
I don't see how that's a bug. Honestly I wasn't even sure valve would change it. It's barely stronger than ivy ult for it.
Honestly anyone trying to uphold competitive integrity to this degree is missing the plot. This is a PLAYTEST. Y’all need to relax and give feedback to the devs instead of starting tournaments and complaining like it’s a real problem. Love the content deathy
This isn't a bug with how the mechanics interact. Since the interaction is so powerful they should explicitly list and ban it if they don't want it in the event. Honestly I'm down for people abusing these mechanics if that gets more eyes on them for Valve to fix them in future patches.
An instant teleport for urn is more op than any of the other channels. Atleast with other channels you have a chance at fighting it but with mirage you don't. It can be seen as an exploit.
If I’m being honest here. You would’ve asked if you don’t think it as an exploit of bug. None of y’all did and was immediately defensive when the pause happened, so no need to push that narrative.
HOWEVER, I do think it doesn’t warrant any punishment. Dendi got a TI champion using a game breaking bug, but it is part of the game and it is not up to you to follow some arbitrary code of conduct.
Accusing him of lying and intentionally trying to cheat is kind of a stretch considering the established precedent that running urn with all other movement abilities was allowed, and the only place it was stated that it was disallowed was a single message in the help channel on the TO discord server. Even though it's an incredibly strong mechanic, I wouldn't have thought twice about whether it was considered legitimate considering that the devs had already known before they even added Mirage to the game that players use every other channeled movement ability in the game for running urn. Kind of unfair to accuse him of "pushing a narrative" lol
Considering all channels work with this I don't believe it is a bug. It is cheap and I think they should change the mechanic in the future.
They should have made the ruling more well communicated to the players.
I don't see it as a bug, they have had plenty of time to stop that from happening in recent patches, its been a thing for a while with I've, haze, etc if they didn't want it to be a feature they would have patched it out, Its just some characters are more effective than others with it, ivy for example has always been pretty strong with urn.
I would say unintended game mechanic until devs say otherwise
I agree with the 1st comment. If you can channel it in game, it's not a bug. It's an alpha game and maybe they'll change silence to cancel channels (which they should) in the future. Until then. You can teleport w the urn
The urn thing is weird. Like it doesn't seem like a bug and it's fine if haze turns invisible and runs with urn, but you obviously shouldn't be able to just insta tp it
For all the interactions (magic carpet, ivy, mo & krill) that can happen i've never even been thinking about it, because it's on the map, can go to the opposite side of the map to counter, can kill them and can react, there is room.
This one ... nah chief this is straight up broken beyond repair, there is 0 counter isn't there ? You don't have time to see the urn on the map spawn, i don't think you can even get the notification "an enemy picked the urn" and there is no way you could ever react and counter it by killing or damaging.
The only counter i can think of would be "be there ahead of time, guess it and protect the urn's area 24/7 in hope it doesn't happen" ?
You could argue "but you need 2 players" but that's a little too small for a zero counter free souls isn't it ?
I understand the penalty, though it falls more into "the game is so early, new character is not well known, it happens whatever" and definitely imo not bad sportsmanship or anything ^^
Honestly i'm glad you bring those topics, like double soaking and this urn TP because it allows for players to learn, share thoughts and for the devs to hear feedback and fix those things !
overpowered, maybe, but then maybe they should've banned the technique beforehand
@@godlyvex5543 Yeah i'll admit i didn't see the video entirely (watched like 80% of it) before commenting : the fact in the question channel it was asked, and the organizers didn't make it in the rules is a bit dumb ^^" i guess they forgot but you can't expect every players of every teams to read every messages in every channel, bit silly
Not a bug nor abuse, people voted for Mirage to be included knowing that Ivy and other characters could do the same. Reasons like these are why extremely new characters are banned from tournament play, because interactions are not fully explored. It may not have been intended at the time, we don't know, what we do know that it didn't break any rule or game/engine logic at the time it was done.
If it was not explicitly banned then it was working as intended, as it shares the same mechanics as the other characters' abilities. This is just the way of early-in-development games and these interactions are unfortunately something you have to accept as a tournament player or organizer, specially if you voted in favor of Mirage being able to be picked, his kit was not a secret and everyone voted with full knowledge of what his ult does (assuming you are serious enough about tournament play). If you did know about it and thought it was too OP, you express that sentiment to the TO and other teams and make the rule beforehand.
There needs to be a list of specifics, and the organizers should be able to change the rules at their leisure as long as everyone is 100% clear on the changes.
Then there should be a penalty, re-do, etc if there is a violation of the sort.
Ultimately it is up to the organizers to decide what they want though. If their judgement is ignorant- they will deal with the consequences. The players just gotta deal with it in the moment.
If the rules seemed vague (2:00)- questions should've been asked. I do think your take on allowing the game to naturally play out (like new characters, etc) is good for the game and it needs to happen.
Idk how the prize pool money was put together- so that's also relevant on my moral perspective lol.
Anyways, hope it all gets figured out :)
not a bug, just a mechanic that was not initially intended, imo
My 2 cents about the situation and urn movement is that it should be consistent for abilities and items. Maybe it's been fixed but a good example of a character with a channeled ability for urn is viscous since you can use your ult to go in ball form and just roll across the map (with high resistances, and increased movement speed) and it's much harder to kill him in that form making it a very fast and easy urn.
What about someone high up in the air using rescue beam on someone with urn then instantly cancelling it so they have insane momentum to fly them across the map? Or what about just using fleetfoot/divine barrier on yourself before hand for insane movement speed. It feels wrong to make certain abilities and only certain abilities not interact with Urn but allow others. Mirage is the first real outlier of this situation since he can instantly TP across to Urn drop off which does seem unfair compared to previous strong units to help with urn.
Creating slight exceptions to the rules feels wrong imo and it should be all or nothing. Either let everyone use their channeled abilities, or be interacted by from teammates abilities, or items, or don't let them being affected at all (think of like a reverse unstopabble where they can only rely on their characters current move speed/spring speed and can't be interacted with by teammates for positive buffs)
In Overwatch theres a bunch of rules which are almost always entirely true. Junkerqueens knife pull does not follow the tank knockback resistance and Illari has full headshot damage against tanks who are supposed to take less damage from headshots. So it creates all of these little microrules within the rules itself and it makes things excessively complicated when they shouldn't be.
First off, it is definitely considered a bug now since Valve fixed this 16 hours ago (5 hours before you uploaded this video)
Personally when I compete I would think about this kind of stuff and ask beforehand. In a smaller Moba I competed in my team did just that but I think we were the minority in doing so.
As other people in the comments did I would also blame the tournament organisers for bad communication. I think they handled your situation well only giving out a small penalty.
A: Not proof it's a bug. Could have been intentional, and they got enough complaints to fix it. Unless they make a statement otherwise, you can't declare their motivations. I haven't read the patch notes though, so if they say it's a bug, then sure.
B: If they can patch Mirage doing this out, they should do it for all the other Urn/movement glitch characters.
I mean yeah, it's clearly not a "bug", if anything, it's probably a "missing mechanic" in the sense that they added the hero with the teleport but probably didn't think of that use case yet, so they will probably just make the Urn cancel all channeling abilities at the moment of pickup.. pretty easy "fix"
I think that this definitely falls upon the the to for not making things clear enough. Also if they’re going to ban his ult off of it then they should also ban anything else that shouldn’t be used on it
If it wasn't clearly stated in the rules it should been allowed. Since it wasn't at the time you played you doing it is totally acceptable and TO should update a clear rule list with unallowed interactions with a ping to all team leaders.
Trying to be as neutral as one can:
Might be hard as a TO cause if you write too little people will try to bend the rules; if you specify what is not OK new stuff might appear and you won't be able to respond to it; if you add a clause mentioning that bugs not yet known will be judged at the moment, the long pause necessary to make the judgement itself will destroy the game momentum and can be exploited by ill-intended teams.
Having a list of all bugs also seems unrealistic since dev teams sharing that is really bad for the company. Also ppl saying that everything is intended by the devs in a game on closed beta: lmao
I don't think you showed lack of sportsmanship. But at the same time, I think that the small penalty was the correct call by the TO cause your team didn't know about the bug but the other team did, so just letting it go without any kind of penalty would be worse from a tournament point of view if all the team members had access to the questions channel, since the other teams would also be busy during the tournament but they knew about it anyway. Kinda makes it look like just your team ignored the rules.
The communication on the server can definitely be improved tho. All replies by the TO should tag all captains, and if the captain is not capable of checking all pings about a tournament, someone else in the team should be in charge of the information gathering.
Too early in the games life to be making arbitrary rules limiting characters abilities. Its like saying Yamato vaulting mid power slash is a bug and clearly not intended since theres no animation for it
they need to specify beforehand, but it should not be allowed imo
If you have to jiggle on and off a platform for silence timing, it's a bug
That is current game mechanics, therefore not a bug
I think its wild you thought this was an intended mechanic, im happy they nerfed it, its not the same as ivy doing urn where not only u can run to drop off, but also react to it. Vs mirage its instant and the sound for his ult is quite asf
You shouldn't be able to channel any ability to run the urn. It is clearly designed to disable all your abilities and your gun so that you have to cross the whole map while being vulnerable. Your team has to protect you or you need to preemptively drop the urn to be able to fight an enemy. Being able to use a movement ability right before actially picking the urn up I think is a bug/exploit because of the clear game design of the urn.
Definitely not abuse in my book. Everyone knows how it works and clearly someone programmed the game that way. Mirage was just a bit busted on launch for me and they should probably remove the channel window all together.
I mean the urn silences you for a reason. You knew it wasnt allowed
the urn silences you after a time delay, with no direct information from Valve that is a skill check not a bug
@@ambhaiji be honest with yourself
i'm sorry but million dollar tourneys have been won off more egregious bugs than that.
the rules said "game breaking bug" and an unintended gameplay loophole is not a game breaking bug. game breaking implies it actually breaks the game (for example, going something that makes everyone's game slow down to a crawl, or causes someone to fall through a floor, etc.)
people are constantly doing small ""exploits"" that give them an advantage in competitive games, rules must be better defined, its not unreasonable for anyone to otherwise do "thing I know you can do that gives you an advantage", that's standard.
@@ambhaijileast sweaty deadlock autist
@@micy9308 I can TP to mid boss and steal the rejuvenator activate unstoppable and refresher and TP out again, and leave with zero consequences to my team, are we now going to get a no TP zone in the Pit? stop being so soft making the game playable for everyone, that is just a less fun game. People like you who don't like skill checks can go play Animal Crossing.
there's a lot of things in game that are bugs but actually increase skill ceiling like animation cancelling when punching etc. imo they shouldn't patch some stuff like that. I think the urn is clearly unintentional because if you were allowed to tp with the urn then they would just make it so you can cast certain abilities while having it but then it would probably create a new set of loads of problems for the devs just like fixing this current one probably will. Did you keep doing it after the first time they paused it tho ?
"no bug abuse" isn't a real rule. you have to specify which bugs are allowed and which aren't, because some bugs are always allowed. this is on the TOs for not being clear about what is and is not allowed.
Not clear enough in the ruleset. Should have paused and let the refs specifically ban it then and there. Then all future instances should be penalized.
They should remove the bugs its stupid that you can use abilities with the urn. Its unintentional, but I think the ruleset should not be a thing. they should remove all bugs themselves and not make the players question their actions.
It surely needs to be more specific and more clear to everyone. This warning being in a question channel is not clear at all.
I remember Dendi Pudge hooks with Keeper of the Light teleport on Internationals realy early on in Dota2's times. They won a TI with bugs XD
i do this with haze all the time I zoom across the map while invisible. I say it's cheap but both teams (if they have a character for it) has the opportunity to do it
How could using an ability in a situation that the devs I believe would have considered when creating this ultimate be a bug? Enemy team can see urn is up and that mirage has ultimate up. There is counter play to it.
me when i take advantage of the GAMEBREAKING bug and still lose the game (its not gamebreaking and doesnt break the stated rules)
Two issues I see:
1) This is why Mirage should have been banned from the matches. It is impossible to know what weird stuff the new character can cause leading to feelings of unfairness.
2) As a more general issue, being able to transport the urn by yourself instead of with a teammate feels like it goes against the idea of this being a team game. It is one thing to do it with some level of skill, but being able to freely just teleport to the urn is just silly.
It wasnt a bug, just a bad interaction. It shouldnt be called bug abuse in this case. That doesnt however mean it should be allowed, but it should have been claified inthink that it wasnt allowed since im pretty sure it was a well known interaction on day 1 of the mirage update.
Seems like it's unintended, but low priority.
Ngl shit like this happening makes the entire tournament org look like a complete joke.
Channeling on urn has been in the game since forever, but now it's suddenly banned and you should know?
Bull shite.
Allowing Ivy to channel and take the urn, vs Mirage taking the urn is totally different. Sure it is the same idea of channeling an ability, but in the end game balance is the essential difference. One is SIGNIFICANTLY more powerful than the other one.
I don't think you did something wrong by doing this mechanic since its part of the game and clearly NOT a bug. It is simply an overpowered mechanic that probably shouldn't have been put in the game in the first place and the organizers should have been much clearer and louder about things that aren't bugs but cannot be done.
Ivy can be shot down or CCd while she is travelling very slowly
Also she shouts her ult to the whole map making it obvious when you hear a random ivy ult without seeing her anywhere on the map
They're the ones who decided to give Mirage a tp ult, what'd they think would happen? They should just change his ult.
nobody thinks kelvin ice path / haze invis / ivy fly with urn is a bug. this is the exact same.
I think those are bugs.
I think channeling any ability while picking up the urn is a bug, given you have to finagle the timing.
But having an ally kelvin create an ice path for the urn carrier is okay, if that is what you meant for him.