I keep giving this advice! The main reason why devs are often unable to take the advice to "make smaller games" is simply that they haven't played enough games of that scope, so they don't have realistic role models.
That's why when there's documentaries from the 90s dev offices, there are arcade machines all around the cubicles. Those nerds LOVED gaming. Nowadays, making a game involves so many disciplines, that not all devs actually play games. But the best ones are still from nerds that wanna build something they'd have fun with.
They’d is exactly what I think makes Masahiro Sakurai a great game dev. He has played a TON of games of all different genres and quality, from retro to modern. And he has a deep understanding of the mechanics in said games. I’d also like to point out that the games don’t have to be popular or well received. Even obscure and/or “bad” games might have interesting ideas and mechanics to learn from and maybe even improve on.
Great video! Playing a variety of games is a good way to gain inspiration. Sometimes the best ideas just come from putting random things together that wouldn't normally be. My problem is not having the discipline to stick with a game project, even if the idea is good. Ideas, while important...are also cheap. I have dozens of unfinished projects from this year alone, and it's because I get bored and start a new one. Which, after a few weeks, means I look at those old projects and feel what I can best describe as a sense of mild dread/anxiety stemming from the complexity of what I created and having to re-aquaint myself with the whole thing before being able to make progress. And then that's when I decide to refactor the whole thing and start the project again, repeating the infinite process of unfinished game projects.
I understand this. I too have a pile of unfinished projects. The current game I’m working on is the 4th attempt at the game… but this one stuck… I think it’s because I was able to have some people play an early version of it and get some positive feedback. If you haven’t posted a playable version on itch or given it to friends… maybe try that? I’ve noticed after I do so, the discipline comes from others wanting me to make more, and it drives me to make something that they are excited for.
Dont lock yourself ever to one genre, or even try a genre your not comfortable with, because in that you may spot something as a solution that those who are numb to the genre will not notice, but it is the risk taking thats involved!
100% agree. I've been a variety gamer for over 27 years, and a dev for about 6, and I definitely feel like it's been a tremendous advantage for me to have the gaming experience I have when it comes to developing my own game. I think it's kind of like tasting a bunch of different food when learning how to cook. By tasting a variety of different recipes and ingredients, you start to build a palette and a repertoire of knowledge on how different ingredients work, or don't work together. Then you can use that knowledge to improve upon an existing recipe, create a new spin on something familiar, or create a whole new dish entirely, and you'll be able to do it much easier than if you had only eaten a handful of different things.
I’m loving the analogy and couldn’t agree more. It’s less about trying to copy other things and more about building up a foundational knowledge of the craft. Cooking is an apt analogue.
Thanks for making this video! First because you make a lot of great points that I wholeheartedly agree with, and second because I've been thinking about making a similar style of video (video essay-like where I analyze other games before showing how I apply those concepts in my own game) but worried it would seem strange, so it's really cool to see another channel doing something like that. Great job, and you've earned a subscriber!! Also, a fun fact about Stardew Valley is that the developer was actually unemployed and working on it full-time (~70 hours a week). So while I definitely understand the feeling maybe not the best example to compare yourself with :)
Thank you! When you make one, send me the link! I’m glad it’s resonating. Feels like a better way to make a devlog. I get eyes on my game and people get some interesting analysis. I did know that about stardew he was working part time as an usher for a while… I did think about that, but there are still devs like the guy who made Cultic that was working until 2am every night after his Walmart shifts… That is not how I work, but I still feel dwarfed when looking at the sheer quality one person can output given enough time.
@@Peebly Thanks, will do! ^^ Also I see where you're coming from. I just try my best not to compare myself to other devs for the sake of my mental health lol
A lot of developers would rather spend their time developing since time is money. Some also just can't play games anymore since they start analyzing the game design and cannot focus on enjoying the game. Yes, this can happen for some devs.
Part of the fun for me is trying to find a game so good that it pulls me out of analyzing mode for a few moments. It’s a tough challenge but when you find one you know you have a gem… then you get to figure out what made it so fun by analyzing the shit out of it🎉
Loved your breakdown and tie in to Stephen King quote! I myself don't "design games" but my main hobbie is TTRPGs. And this video totally personified what i have been unable to figure out with why i have been in a creative slump when writing my campaigns. Keep it up!!!
Also, thinking about an hypothetical "game dev course", I thought: "In literature college, we have mandatory books to read. Would there be a "mandatory games to play" in a game dev college?" and while that sounds like a good idea, games can be experienced in very different ways. You could force someone to play Super Metroid, but one person might read the manual and appreciate the level design, while most people can beat the entire game without knowing what a shinning spark is. So... How effective would that be? I say the same as the video: just play more games.
@FelipeViana-bg7h true, different people can extract different themes and motifs from books, changing even by their background or even current mood. Maybe the approach for a game design course could be just like with books: guide the students through first steps and let them find whatever they find... But we'll get the same problem: people not seeing themes unless it's spelled out for them... It's complicated.
I think you're missing the point of the "why can't we make a mashup of genres where they're all awesome?" part. Meshing genres is always a risk. You always end up alienating people who like one genre better than the other. The perfect example is just seeing how divisive people's opinions on something with changes as small as Sonic adventure where every character plays generally the same but has different objectives yet you still see arguments online about how one playstyle is unnecessary and the game "should only have kept one of the parts from the beginning". And you see this with pretty much all genre mashups out there. You can't go full depth with two opposing genres and expect people to accept it, which is why in order to mix you have to dillute each part in terms of complexity for it to work. It's why the dating sim aspects of persona are so shallow or why the combat in stardew valley is so simple. Making both parts "better" just makes the majority of the players angry because they didn't want to participate in that half all that much to begin with. Mashups are easier to swallow when they don't actually expect you to be an expert in two genres at once.
Well said. I think it’s also easier said than done to actually take the time to fully flesh out both genres when doing a mash up. I knew there were some issues with the argument, but the point I was trying to make was to expose oneself to new types of genres to get inspired. Yes stardew has light combat elements, and persona has a light dating sim aspect to it, but something like act raiser or cult of the lamb are full genre mashup ups that, if a bit deeper would be, in my opinion better. They don’t just take elements and create mini games to tack on to themselves yakuza style, they commit to a dual genre. I think if a developer found two genres that weren’t antithetical and mashed them together you could have the next “rogue lite” where some smart humans who made rogue legacy decided to mash incremental games with a rogue like and invented a new genre.
There's also the eternal "does this actually add fun to the game" question when adding any feature, up to and including adding a whole different genre to it.
I liked cult of the lamb, but the combat parts did feel undercooked. It's not impossible to make a compelling genre mix, but the pacing and incentives need to be carefully balanced. More importantly, the two parts have to feed into one another in a way that has you excited for the switch. Look at XCOM - you do the strategy killing aliens bit and bring resources back from the mission to build up your base which you use to craft better guns to kill aliens more good. It's a very fun synergy that also works as perfect quiet time to break up the action.
It can work well if you mesh two genres to have two separate gameplay modes, so as soon as one mode starts to get stale the other takes over and keeps things fresh. Your example of Persona is a perfect example of this, mixing JRPG with a dating sim element, though I struggle to see why you’d call the dating sim portions shallow when there’s a lot of meat to it in my opinion. Of course there are players that’ll only enjoy one or the other, but for the most part it’s the marriage of the two that keeps players engaged, hence why the first 3 games in the franchise didn’t pick up much steam in comparison to the popularity of P3-P5. As soon as you start genre hopping too much however, you risk losing your initial hook that made the player pick up the game in the first place. Dave the Diver is the perfect example of that. What starts out as this cozy resource collecting slash restaurant management game randomly transforms into a stealth game, a platformer, an action game. Players just wanted to play that cozy scuba diving restaurant game they were promised so when the end of the game has nothing to do with that, it feels like a betrayal of your expectations.
As hardcore gamer turned DEV this is so true. I partly became dev because i noticed in all genres especially now they will be outdated in one area that another genre has nailed down. Also defs agree so much with alot of this Like the whole segment at 4:30
I really liked this video and your take! Super chill video and encouraging! I often have a hard time getting myself to play more games, but you've inspired me to look a bit outside of my comfort zone and to make sure to try some more in the future! Great job man!
Wow, thank you! My hope was that it was inspiring and not chastising. Everyone works differently, but you have only to gain if you stop and play a bit.
It's true. I've been told many times in my career in the industry that I have a very good "game sense", and that is primarily something that comes with playing a lot of games, thinking about those games, and particularly the mechanics and design choices of those games. Notice also that I specifically say games, plural, and not just one game for a long time. That could be useful if you are trying to work on that specific game, but you will have blind spots and may also miss a lot of lessons that could be learned from other genres. Unfortunately this "game sense" is not something that translates well to a job resume, and also is hard to justify to the head up share holders etc. So people are hardly ever hired for this ability. Once in, however, it will do wonders to set you apart.
didn't even need to watch the video to agree with the title.. this is a must in game dev and from the games i have looked at over the last year this seems to be a huge issue. I am learning to be my own game dev/composer/sfx person , been studying indy game sphere for the last 2 years. have over 1200 games in my steam wishlist. reason is i review how well games do after they release. not in videos or anything. i just review them for my own personal knowledge.. ppl are falling short on dynamic level design often and also enemies.. a lot of really good games have released that i was hopeful for but then find out their tiling is so boring, not the art.. the method of tiling..long flat, too many right angles. not dynamic enough... I play mostly 2d games. Another thing games are falling short on is enemies, i'll walk into a room and it's just too easy for me. more enemies more combat. more chaos.. hollow knight can teach alot about this... this is why games take so long.. A current unreleased game i have high hopes for is Emberbane.. the combat and movement is amazing.. but it could fail if they don't level design well or have enough enemy variation.. the game needs to be fun. i wish them all the best anyway. i hope it's a banger.. .my favorite indy game by far this year was The Last Medic.. he's a youtuber named Once Upon a Synth who made this game. and all the music.. a true gem of a game.. best game since Celeste.. i make Celeste mods and music for them, part of my game dev training, is how i just learned fmod, stylegrounds and pixel art. and good level design. i'm still working on that part with a few more mods. sorry for writing a book here lolol cheers.
Ive been in a game playing slump since starting on a project a few months back, but this video made me inspired to start a new one. def think its what i needed.
I've tried to communicate this to other devs too. It's baffling to me how many game developers think that playing other games is a waste of time. If you don't expose yourself to large variety of games, you'll have an extremely limited understanding of what's possible and how many different ways you can do things. Thanks for the vid!
I also stand by this belief but If only making games doesn't take so much time as playing games. Time, Energy, Work-Life Health balance makes this extremely hard because of games being a mixed genre (Art Heavy, Technically weak developer here). Maybe if you are specialized in an aspect of game development + a team this would be easier. Some games take a while to fully show their mechanics too (Atlus games are notorious for this which is the ballpark of the games some of us want to learn from)
Great points. This is exactly why I don’t generally finish many games these days. But 20 mins to an hour a day can get you through a surprising amount of games. Especially if you have a handheld around. Additionally part of the work life health balance is relaxing and enjoying something, and sometimes that might be a game. I’ll sometimes double up with an Audio book and a game to get exposed to twice as much when I don’t feel like it’s over stimulating.
i was watching a dev log and the guy was hitting his head agaisnt the wall because he was 6 months in but couldnt figure out how to make his game fun and add depth. and i couldnt help think "Dude, just go look at how puyo pop did it". We are not the pioneers of gaming. We stand on the shoulders of giants. Developers for decades have struggled with what we have struggled with, the only difference is that many of them didnt have guides or points of refference. I think it is very valuable to learn from their innovations and mistakes.
@@Peebly I also remember Quinten Tarantino said that to be a great filmmaker you need to watch a lot of films. In his biography he used to work at a movie rental shop and he would watch movies all day. And it shows. His first commercial work was remarkable and only had a $2000 budget
I do think that if you're trying to actually sell a game, then you should play more games. But most developers are just hobbyists, and so they can do whatever they want. But if they decide one day to stick their finger out and say "I want YOU to play My game." Well if that's the case, you better know what kind of games I like.
It's great that people think about what can net them a hit in such an economically risky field but as far as I know there's no method that is known to work beyond just keeping at it, or the many million dollar games studios with around 1000 people involved still only know marketing and recognisability as working strategies despite being able to recruit just about any talent they want. I think doing a game that's "inspired" and thus like another game has a big downside as well: gamers have an unfortunately hierarchical view of games that I think many developers miss, they often believe that a game is "this but worse" in which case it hinges a lot on trying to upstage their prior love, which is significantly harder than just making something great. I do really agree that people should diversify their influences but also not to trust that it will work, there's thousands of failed indies for every big success. There's decades upon decades of game studies and afaik nobody knows how to get a hit beyond more recognition.
There are many variables that go into a successful indie project. But making something well influenced and of high quality is an important step toward success. It’s not a guarantee but it is necessary if you are going to come close to success.
This is true, but it's kinda problematic. Yes, you have to play a lot and constantly learn how games are made-what makes the flow and what the standard level of polish is at the time. But yeah, development takes a lot of time. Like, a lot of time. I mostly play games with my kids now, and I’m glad to have some time for that. But big RPGs? I can maybe play one or two a year, definitely not a lot. Most of the games I played were when I was a teenager. Now I’m a full-time developer and also an indie developer in my free time. It takes 8+6 hours a day, so there’s not a lot of time for playing-or even sleeping! But I love it anyway. I did level design, 3D modeling, and environment work for Hobo: Tough Life, I work as a vegetation designer for ETS2 and ATS, and I'm also developing my own game, Master Leaf Blower: Crazy Sim. You’re totally right, though-it’s just not easy to play a lot of games anymore.
People who devlog on youtube are as much RUclipsrs, developing takes do much time it's difficult to play "enough" and if you're a youtube creator to boot you have far less time still. I think everyone wants to study the form a bit more but it's not really clear how to cram that in
This advice is stupidly simple and yet I think it may be true that majority of game developers don't play many games. Maybe they know games from courses, watched some streams but they don't have that much free time or are burnt out from crunch and don't want to. I think it's why modern AAA games are interactive movies with lacking gameplay. Another issue is that game devs don't learn from each other. There are so many simple, stupid design decisions. If you don't have resources to develop your own mechanics, or your UI sucks, then steal design from someone else and change it a little so as not to cause copyright infringement.
Especially when it comes to the simple design stuff. Great UI is everywhere and you won’t get in trouble for copying it because it isn’t the game! But it will make the game feel better to play
To butcher a Quote, "I am not great man, I stand on the Shoulders of Giants" If you're not playing other games and seeing and understanding their good ideas, you'll be unable to improve them in your own game.
Hmmmm, I played 250+ demos just this year, but I kinda disagree :D I think there's value to outsider art (which honestly Balatro could be) and for similar reasons? Like, how many game would you have to play to find a Moon Cat? Most games aren't reinventing their genre or coming up with new solutions. Playing a ton of games would most likely result in you thinking "oh okay, *that's* how you do this thing" and do the same thing as everyone else. I think it's more valuable to play specific games while looking for a specific thing (or in Balatro's case, finally playing Slay the Spire to figure out how they did controller support) that you're probably not even noticing unless you're looking for it, than to just randomly play games expecting to absord knowledge. Also! A lot of time you don't even need to play the games, just watching footage of it is enough. I think ultimately there's still a lot more things to do with games, and even the concept of mashing things together is still limiting what's possible, since it relies on stuff that already exist. I've mostly just made jam games but I almost always tried making something new, and yeah sometimes it doesn't work as well, and it's often not stuff that could be scaled up, but I think there's a lot of space for new things, not just tweaks. And even in that space, most people's instinct is to recreate things they love (which isn't bad, but that's how you get to a place where games do a lot of the same thing). I think the main problem is dev being inspired *exclusively* by games. That being said, I also think it's important to look at what similar games do yeah, for example I've seen a bunch of first time puzzle games kinda fail or miss obvious stuff because the dev didn't try other games in the genre. I think that's what makes good creators at this point, since it'll not just be about playing games, but knowing what needs to be incorporated in your game or not, and like everything with games, it depends on your goals. Turns out going against every modern puzzle knowledge went pretty well for Void Strangers, so yeah, if people have a clear and strong enough vision, it might also work out. Edit: I forgot but also yeah, I'd say variety is more important than volume. It's more interesting to see how different genre solve similar problems, what their respective conventions are, etc. than to play 10s of games in a similar genre and nothing else. Basically: I think playing lots of games can be a good practice, but it has to be conscious, and as exhaustive as possible for one person.
I agree with you. I think it also depends on the creator. I’m naturally drawn to new and wacky games I’ve never experienced because I’m looking for new ways of thinking about games, and not everyone is doing that. Variety is a good way to put it. Devs need to variety. This video was about playing and trying to give devs permissions and reasons to go play because I see so many not doing so. There are plenty of people shouting about game jams and being creative for its own sake… similarly because of the reality of being a nerd, I think outsider art will always happen… and I think it can happen on purpose if one constricts their gaming diet. On a base level devs should be playing some games just to know the basic language of games. But you are totally right about there being space and necessity for creativity and jam projects for their own sake. Games based on nothing often lead to really original ideas. However after you make these new ideas, they often need to polished and translated into what a modern audience expects in order for them to pop off.
I talked about that a bit at the end. It less about playing fully and more about exposure. If you have a spare 10 mins you have time to boot something up and learn from it.
its hard to put time into playing games when you dedicate your time to learning to develop and actually developing games. indie game dev is a very lonely road if you dont come from a job and most of that time is put to technical aspects of it. If you play games as an indie, most of the time they become lazy and dont learn the technical skills required to make a good game.
I get it. I work a full time non tech job, and have many other responsibilities. It’s all about the balance of learning dev and still squeezing a game or two in there.
This too. I’m continually inspired by books, travel, and other creative hobbies I have that give me ideas for my game… but that was beyond the scope of the video. Go play UFO 50 and tell me you aren’t inspired to take a similar approach when making your own games. It’s about getting to know the depth of the craft through studying experts. The truly original ideas come from elsewhere and your raw creativity, but the know how, the ability to execute on those ideas in ways that pull players in, those skills are found within the medium.
It’s about finding the parts that you like and refining them in what you’re making. An art style, a mechanic, a character type, a menu layout. Even if you don’t like a game, every game has something to teach you.
@@Peebly I mean sure, so many ways to enhance things. I think it's maybe nicer for smaller details, which you would've otherwise perhaps just dismissed. One person can only invent so much anyway... usually. I think checking out games is important, but maybe you don't need to play them so much per game (unless you're investigating some long-term effects). Then again I think playing more games could be also important, because then you get a better picture of what are some "default" things people are used to, which they find intuitive, easy and maybe meaningful. Although of course some common thing in multiple different games might actually be something that people think is not so nice (or they might find it boring, even if it's specifically a thing that's common because that's kind of the most optimal, good solution).
@@rk-bumbumI think that’s why you need to cultivate an understanding of many games so you can understand that common annoyance, that would then give you a clear instance to innovate on. Something like guard towers in Ubisoft games is a clear example of a default that people might find annoying. Or even a tab layout in ui menus. If you play a lot of games you’d be familiar with these and may have an idea of how to fix it, thus allowing your game to stand out.
got some constructive criticism, consider with care. so, two things: for one, devs NEED to play A LOT more games? you could just be suggesting that people COULD try to play more games to help themselves out, but will they absolutely be worse off without it? The reasons you gave are kind of vauge and not problematic enough to require that kind of persuasion, and could be slight projection? not certain about that, but I still feel its possible that youve overdone the presentation because of it. secondly... how many more games, specifically? not exact quantities since thats silly ofc, but theres no ballpark to judge oneself upon besides maybe the end bit where you listed the games you played this year. Still, theres no clear answer as to whether the viewer should drastically up the ante or consider fitting in A Short Hike into their busy backlog theyve been tearing through, leaving the message kind of muddled since the video is more concerned with a few examples of taking inspiration from games to solve your problems (which can be unreliable anyways but thats besides the point) rather than clarifying and informing the viewer on how to act upon hearing "you need to play a lot more games". maybe they consider 3 completed games a year and replaying a few inspirational and relevant games good enough. I know I do. so perhaps be more specific about that, eh? overall the argument is alright. the production quality and muddled messaging makes the experience a bit mehhh at points, sorry for the bluntness, and id love to see if these could be adressed in a future, more focused video. Cheers for reading my critisim to this point! I'm no expert myself and I mostly do it in hopes that it'll point out some issues that you think are worth fixing, provided you can appreciate negative critisim in good faith, and that itll make these videos more consistently entertaining and usefully informative, because you best be sure that ill be watching them :D
First of all, thanks for being willing to give constructive criticism. Well written and well deserved. Second, I was waffling quite a bit while making this. I didnt want to make anyone feel like they were wrong in their approach to development or gaming. I intentionally tried to leave it a little vague knowing that everyone has a different process, and everyone needs to find their own process. Unfortunately there is no one correct formula. I am still trying to figure out what theses essays are. They’re part dev log, part projected opinions, part inspiration bate… I still need to tune the balance. Be assured I’ll focus on some defining some clearer points in the future. I may need to adjust my scope so all the ideas I have don’t bleed into each other. Thanks again! And thanks for watching!
I disagree. You just get the same things over and over and it becomes a feedback loop of arbitrary convention. The developers of Pokemon, Minecraft, and Zelda, for example, were inspired by real life, not other games, first and foremost. Your approach makes games stand out less because almost every indie game now is a quirki, "deep", shader-filled, genre-defying, hard-to-follow mess inspired by the same games every other game was. Celeste. Undertale. Minecraft. Hollow Knight. All with this fake sense of awe that you tell yourself these games make you feel. The more games you play, the more games stay the same.
You need to understand the rules to the break them. Also, Pokémon was itself based on the genre conventions laid out by dragon warrior. Zelda and Minecraft are very original but as both have grown In popularity the added genre conventions only help them to break more records. The best selling Zelda to date is heavily inspired by assassins creed. Yet the core is what remains innovative. One must understand the rules to break them.
@@Peebly You're missing an important part of what I wrote. It's a feedback loop. Games based on games based on games... it's a game of telephone, really. Conventions without knowing why they are followed, are of no value. You should study the formative early games before anything else if you're gonna learn the rules of video games. The games where form was borne out of the desired function. The games that created genres or created widely enjoyed extensions to the concept. Then you will know why games do things a certain way. The actual utility. Basing your games off other modern indie games that have already "broken the rules" will not teach you the rules. That will only teach you to make games in the currently fashionable style, without flexibility. Why not start with a basic, simple game concept, as clean as chess? The essence of the kind of game you want. Then encounter the design questions for yourself and find your own answers! That's where you will find creativity.
@@poleve5409 What a strange comment to leave. Of course I am. Am I not okay because I disagreed with this video and had my own ideas? Are we supposed to be an echo chamber?
*A lot
I keep giving this advice!
The main reason why devs are often unable to take the advice to "make smaller games" is simply that they haven't played enough games of that scope, so they don't have realistic role models.
This is very true. Play some smaller gems. See that small games can actually be good! Great point.
That's why when there's documentaries from the 90s dev offices, there are arcade machines all around the cubicles. Those nerds LOVED gaming. Nowadays, making a game involves so many disciplines, that not all devs actually play games. But the best ones are still from nerds that wanna build something they'd have fun with.
I think building something that you’d have fun playing is a key part. If you’re not a gamer, how are you supposed to know if your game is fun?
They’d is exactly what I think makes Masahiro Sakurai a great game dev. He has played a TON of games of all different genres and quality, from retro to modern. And he has a deep understanding of the mechanics in said games. I’d also like to point out that the games don’t have to be popular or well received. Even obscure and/or “bad” games might have interesting ideas and mechanics to learn from and maybe even improve on.
Agreed
Great video! Playing a variety of games is a good way to gain inspiration. Sometimes the best ideas just come from putting random things together that wouldn't normally be. My problem is not having the discipline to stick with a game project, even if the idea is good. Ideas, while important...are also cheap.
I have dozens of unfinished projects from this year alone, and it's because I get bored and start a new one. Which, after a few weeks, means I look at those old projects and feel what I can best describe as a sense of mild dread/anxiety stemming from the complexity of what I created and having to re-aquaint myself with the whole thing before being able to make progress.
And then that's when I decide to refactor the whole thing and start the project again, repeating the infinite process of unfinished game projects.
I understand this. I too have a pile of unfinished projects. The current game I’m working on is the 4th attempt at the game… but this one stuck… I think it’s because I was able to have some people play an early version of it and get some positive feedback. If you haven’t posted a playable version on itch or given it to friends… maybe try that? I’ve noticed after I do so, the discipline comes from others wanting me to make more, and it drives me to make something that they are excited for.
Playing games that fit the genre that I want to make makes it easier to design similar, and make unique ideas or mechanics. Of course don't copy
Get inspired, don’t copy
Dont lock yourself ever to one genre, or even try a genre your not comfortable with, because in that you may spot something as a solution that those who are numb to the genre will not notice, but it is the risk taking thats involved!
Totally agree!
100% agree. I've been a variety gamer for over 27 years, and a dev for about 6, and I definitely feel like it's been a tremendous advantage for me to have the gaming experience I have when it comes to developing my own game.
I think it's kind of like tasting a bunch of different food when learning how to cook. By tasting a variety of different recipes and ingredients, you start to build a palette and a repertoire of knowledge on how different ingredients work, or don't work together. Then you can use that knowledge to improve upon an existing recipe, create a new spin on something familiar, or create a whole new dish entirely, and you'll be able to do it much easier than if you had only eaten a handful of different things.
I’m loving the analogy and couldn’t agree more. It’s less about trying to copy other things and more about building up a foundational knowledge of the craft. Cooking is an apt analogue.
Thanks for making this video! First because you make a lot of great points that I wholeheartedly agree with, and second because I've been thinking about making a similar style of video (video essay-like where I analyze other games before showing how I apply those concepts in my own game) but worried it would seem strange, so it's really cool to see another channel doing something like that. Great job, and you've earned a subscriber!!
Also, a fun fact about Stardew Valley is that the developer was actually unemployed and working on it full-time (~70 hours a week). So while I definitely understand the feeling maybe not the best example to compare yourself with :)
Thank you! When you make one, send me the link! I’m glad it’s resonating. Feels like a better way to make a devlog. I get eyes on my game and people get some interesting analysis.
I did know that about stardew he was working part time as an usher for a while… I did think about that, but there are still devs like the guy who made Cultic that was working until 2am every night after his Walmart shifts…
That is not how I work, but I still feel dwarfed when looking at the sheer quality one person can output given enough time.
@@Peebly Thanks, will do! ^^ Also I see where you're coming from. I just try my best not to compare myself to other devs for the sake of my mental health lol
A lot of developers would rather spend their time developing since time is money. Some also just can't play games anymore since they start analyzing the game design and cannot focus on enjoying the game. Yes, this can happen for some devs.
Part of the fun for me is trying to find a game so good that it pulls me out of analyzing mode for a few moments. It’s a tough challenge but when you find one you know you have a gem… then you get to figure out what made it so fun by analyzing the shit out of it🎉
Loved your breakdown and tie in to Stephen King quote! I myself don't "design games" but my main hobbie is TTRPGs. And this video totally personified what i have been unable to figure out with why i have been in a creative slump when writing my campaigns. Keep it up!!!
Glad you enjoyed it! I think the same thing applies to TTRPGs. Go roll some dice!
Wow, this should get more attention! Nicely executed video with an interesting take I definitely relate to personally.
Much appreciated!
Also, thinking about an hypothetical "game dev course", I thought: "In literature college, we have mandatory books to read. Would there be a "mandatory games to play" in a game dev college?" and while that sounds like a good idea, games can be experienced in very different ways. You could force someone to play Super Metroid, but one person might read the manual and appreciate the level design, while most people can beat the entire game without knowing what a shinning spark is. So... How effective would that be? I say the same as the video: just play more games.
You gave me a video idea. Thank you 🙏
But that also happen with books, each person will have a different view of that same story
That's why it's valuable to share opinions with others and see their point of view
@FelipeViana-bg7h true, different people can extract different themes and motifs from books, changing even by their background or even current mood. Maybe the approach for a game design course could be just like with books: guide the students through first steps and let them find whatever they find... But we'll get the same problem: people not seeing themes unless it's spelled out for them... It's complicated.
I think you're missing the point of the "why can't we make a mashup of genres where they're all awesome?" part. Meshing genres is always a risk. You always end up alienating people who like one genre better than the other. The perfect example is just seeing how divisive people's opinions on something with changes as small as Sonic adventure where every character plays generally the same but has different objectives yet you still see arguments online about how one playstyle is unnecessary and the game "should only have kept one of the parts from the beginning". And you see this with pretty much all genre mashups out there. You can't go full depth with two opposing genres and expect people to accept it, which is why in order to mix you have to dillute each part in terms of complexity for it to work. It's why the dating sim aspects of persona are so shallow or why the combat in stardew valley is so simple. Making both parts "better" just makes the majority of the players angry because they didn't want to participate in that half all that much to begin with. Mashups are easier to swallow when they don't actually expect you to be an expert in two genres at once.
Well said. I think it’s also easier said than done to actually take the time to fully flesh out both genres when doing a mash up. I knew there were some issues with the argument, but the point I was trying to make was to expose oneself to new types of genres to get inspired. Yes stardew has light combat elements, and persona has a light dating sim aspect to it, but something like act raiser or cult of the lamb are full genre mashup ups that, if a bit deeper would be, in my opinion better. They don’t just take elements and create mini games to tack on to themselves yakuza style, they commit to a dual genre. I think if a developer found two genres that weren’t antithetical and mashed them together you could have the next “rogue lite” where some smart humans who made rogue legacy decided to mash incremental games with a rogue like and invented a new genre.
There's also the eternal "does this actually add fun to the game" question when adding any feature, up to and including adding a whole different genre to it.
I liked cult of the lamb, but the combat parts did feel undercooked. It's not impossible to make a compelling genre mix, but the pacing and incentives need to be carefully balanced.
More importantly, the two parts have to feed into one another in a way that has you excited for the switch. Look at XCOM - you do the strategy killing aliens bit and bring resources back from the mission to build up your base which you use to craft better guns to kill aliens more good. It's a very fun synergy that also works as perfect quiet time to break up the action.
It can work well if you mesh two genres to have two separate gameplay modes, so as soon as one mode starts to get stale the other takes over and keeps things fresh. Your example of Persona is a perfect example of this, mixing JRPG with a dating sim element, though I struggle to see why you’d call the dating sim portions shallow when there’s a lot of meat to it in my opinion. Of course there are players that’ll only enjoy one or the other, but for the most part it’s the marriage of the two that keeps players engaged, hence why the first 3 games in the franchise didn’t pick up much steam in comparison to the popularity of P3-P5.
As soon as you start genre hopping too much however, you risk losing your initial hook that made the player pick up the game in the first place. Dave the Diver is the perfect example of that. What starts out as this cozy resource collecting slash restaurant management game randomly transforms into a stealth game, a platformer, an action game. Players just wanted to play that cozy scuba diving restaurant game they were promised so when the end of the game has nothing to do with that, it feels like a betrayal of your expectations.
This
As hardcore gamer turned DEV this is so true. I partly became dev because i noticed in all genres especially now they will be outdated in one area that another genre has nailed down. Also defs agree so much with alot of this Like the whole segment at 4:30
Thank you! Ideas like the subversion of standard controls in Mooncat are where the next great innovations lie.
I really liked this video and your take! Super chill video and encouraging! I often have a hard time getting myself to play more games, but you've inspired me to look a bit outside of my comfort zone and to make sure to try some more in the future! Great job man!
Wow, thank you! My hope was that it was inspiring and not chastising. Everyone works differently, but you have only to gain if you stop and play a bit.
I might go to the hang for what im about to say, but, technically, NFSW is a somewhat unexplored genre
No comment 😅
Skyrim modders explored it thoroughly.
It's true. I've been told many times in my career in the industry that I have a very good "game sense", and that is primarily something that comes with playing a lot of games, thinking about those games, and particularly the mechanics and design choices of those games. Notice also that I specifically say games, plural, and not just one game for a long time. That could be useful if you are trying to work on that specific game, but you will have blind spots and may also miss a lot of lessons that could be learned from other genres.
Unfortunately this "game sense" is not something that translates well to a job resume, and also is hard to justify to the head up share holders etc. So people are hardly ever hired for this ability. Once in, however, it will do wonders to set you apart.
That’s really cool. Game sense is a good term for it. Sad that there isn’t a way to put it on a resume or to use it to help you get a job.
didn't even need to watch the video to agree with the title.. this is a must in game dev and from the games i have looked at over the last year this seems to be a huge issue. I am learning to be my own game dev/composer/sfx person , been studying indy game sphere for the last 2 years. have over 1200 games in my steam wishlist. reason is i review how well games do after they release. not in videos or anything. i just review them for my own personal knowledge.. ppl are falling short on dynamic level design often and also enemies.. a lot of really good games have released that i was hopeful for but then find out their tiling is so boring, not the art.. the method of tiling..long flat, too many right angles. not dynamic enough...
I play mostly 2d games. Another thing games are falling short on is enemies, i'll walk into a room and it's just too easy for me. more enemies more combat. more chaos.. hollow knight can teach alot about this... this is why games take so long.. A current unreleased game i have high hopes for is Emberbane.. the combat and movement is amazing.. but it could fail if they don't level design well or have enough enemy variation.. the game needs to be fun. i wish them all the best anyway. i hope it's a banger.. .my favorite indy game by far this year was The Last Medic.. he's a youtuber named Once Upon a Synth who made this game. and all the music.. a true gem of a game.. best game since Celeste.. i make Celeste mods and music for them, part of my game dev training, is how i just learned fmod, stylegrounds and pixel art. and good level design. i'm still working on that part with a few more mods. sorry for writing a book here lolol cheers.
Didn’t even need to read the whole comment to agree with it. This is the type of analysis every dev should be doing. Good work
Ive been in a game playing slump since starting on a project a few months back, but this video made me inspired to start a new one. def think its what i needed.
Glad to hear. It’s nice to feel like playing games can be useful instead of a waste
I've tried to communicate this to other devs too. It's baffling to me how many game developers think that playing other games is a waste of time. If you don't expose yourself to large variety of games, you'll have an extremely limited understanding of what's possible and how many different ways you can do things. Thanks for the vid!
Exactly! Thanks for watching.
For the value of advice you're giving and the quality of this video, you don't deserve to have only 200 subscribers
Glad to have people out like you watching! More to come 🫡
I also stand by this belief but If only making games doesn't take so much time as playing games. Time, Energy, Work-Life Health balance makes this extremely hard because of games being a mixed genre (Art Heavy, Technically weak developer here). Maybe if you are specialized in an aspect of game development + a team this would be easier. Some games take a while to fully show their mechanics too (Atlus games are notorious for this which is the ballpark of the games some of us want to learn from)
Great points. This is exactly why I don’t generally finish many games these days. But 20 mins to an hour a day can get you through a surprising amount of games. Especially if you have a handheld around. Additionally part of the work life health balance is relaxing and enjoying something, and sometimes that might be a game. I’ll sometimes double up with an Audio book and a game to get exposed to twice as much when I don’t feel like it’s over stimulating.
like the content! it's very informative and give insights
Thank you. Took some time away from developing to try something new. Glad you liked it!
i was watching a dev log and the guy was hitting his head agaisnt the wall because he was 6 months in but couldnt figure out how to make his game fun and add depth. and i couldnt help think "Dude, just go look at how puyo pop did it".
We are not the pioneers of gaming. We stand on the shoulders of giants. Developers for decades have struggled with what we have struggled with, the only difference is that many of them didnt have guides or points of refference. I think it is very valuable to learn from their innovations and mistakes.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. Devs often get pioneer syndrome and forget how many great examples there are out there.
@@Peebly I also remember Quinten Tarantino said that to be a great filmmaker you need to watch a lot of films. In his biography he used to work at a movie rental shop and he would watch movies all day. And it shows. His first commercial work was remarkable and only had a $2000 budget
I just watched a doc about him while writing this video. He’s a prime example of what you can do if you study the living shi* out of your medium!
@@Peebly funny enough he took my advice when i told him to just play games.
Score for another dev playing games!
I guess I should play more
Yes, yes you should
If your a game developer ufo 50 is a must play.
500%
Playing games is to developing them as laughing is to telling jokes.
Love this. Well put!
You didn't happen to say that as a criticism, did you?
I do think that if you're trying to actually sell a game, then you should play more games.
But most developers are just hobbyists, and so they can do whatever they want.
But if they decide one day to stick their finger out and say "I want YOU to play My game."
Well if that's the case, you better know what kind of games I like.
Only if devs want to try and my a genre defying masterpiece
Also, chances are, your favorite game by your favorite dev was not the first ( or 10th ) game they made
Yeah, it's the problem of only the big one being visible
Many of their “first” games aren’t usually released. Secret practice games still count
It's great that people think about what can net them a hit in such an economically risky field but as far as I know there's no method that is known to work beyond just keeping at it, or the many million dollar games studios with around 1000 people involved still only know marketing and recognisability as working strategies despite being able to recruit just about any talent they want.
I think doing a game that's "inspired" and thus like another game has a big downside as well: gamers have an unfortunately hierarchical view of games that I think many developers miss, they often believe that a game is "this but worse" in which case it hinges a lot on trying to upstage their prior love, which is significantly harder than just making something great.
I do really agree that people should diversify their influences but also not to trust that it will work, there's thousands of failed indies for every big success.
There's decades upon decades of game studies and afaik nobody knows how to get a hit beyond more recognition.
There are many variables that go into a successful indie project. But making something well influenced and of high quality is an important step toward success. It’s not a guarantee but it is necessary if you are going to come close to success.
This is true, but it's kinda problematic. Yes, you have to play a lot and constantly learn how games are made-what makes the flow and what the standard level of polish is at the time. But yeah, development takes a lot of time. Like, a lot of time. I mostly play games with my kids now, and I’m glad to have some time for that. But big RPGs? I can maybe play one or two a year, definitely not a lot. Most of the games I played were when I was a teenager.
Now I’m a full-time developer and also an indie developer in my free time. It takes 8+6 hours a day, so there’s not a lot of time for playing-or even sleeping! But I love it anyway. I did level design, 3D modeling, and environment work for Hobo: Tough Life, I work as a vegetation designer for ETS2 and ATS, and I'm also developing my own game, Master Leaf Blower: Crazy Sim. You’re totally right, though-it’s just not easy to play a lot of games anymore.
It’s hard. I think that’s part of why you need to be crazy to do it. There really isn’t enough time to do it all, but somehow you have to find it
People who devlog on youtube are as much RUclipsrs, developing takes do much time it's difficult to play "enough" and if you're a youtube creator to boot you have far less time still. I think everyone wants to study the form a bit more but it's not really clear how to cram that in
Maybe I’ll make a time management video. It’s very tough to cram it all in, but it isn’t easy to create something exceptional
This advice is stupidly simple and yet I think it may be true that majority of game developers don't play many games. Maybe they know games from courses, watched some streams but they don't have that much free time or are burnt out from crunch and don't want to. I think it's why modern AAA games are interactive movies with lacking gameplay. Another issue is that game devs don't learn from each other. There are so many simple, stupid design decisions. If you don't have resources to develop your own mechanics, or your UI sucks, then steal design from someone else and change it a little so as not to cause copyright infringement.
Especially when it comes to the simple design stuff. Great UI is everywhere and you won’t get in trouble for copying it because it isn’t the game! But it will make the game feel better to play
To butcher a Quote, "I am not great man, I stand on the Shoulders of Giants" If you're not playing other games and seeing and understanding their good ideas, you'll be unable to improve them in your own game.
100%
Crush crush jumpscare
😂
I don't play many AAA games that I hear about, because money. But there are way many itchio games that are free and original.
Exactly. Plenty of free awesome games out there to get inspired by!
Hmmmm, I played 250+ demos just this year, but I kinda disagree :D I think there's value to outsider art (which honestly Balatro could be) and for similar reasons?
Like, how many game would you have to play to find a Moon Cat? Most games aren't reinventing their genre or coming up with new solutions. Playing a ton of games would most likely result in you thinking "oh okay, *that's* how you do this thing" and do the same thing as everyone else.
I think it's more valuable to play specific games while looking for a specific thing (or in Balatro's case, finally playing Slay the Spire to figure out how they did controller support) that you're probably not even noticing unless you're looking for it, than to just randomly play games expecting to absord knowledge. Also! A lot of time you don't even need to play the games, just watching footage of it is enough.
I think ultimately there's still a lot more things to do with games, and even the concept of mashing things together is still limiting what's possible, since it relies on stuff that already exist. I've mostly just made jam games but I almost always tried making something new, and yeah sometimes it doesn't work as well, and it's often not stuff that could be scaled up, but I think there's a lot of space for new things, not just tweaks. And even in that space, most people's instinct is to recreate things they love (which isn't bad, but that's how you get to a place where games do a lot of the same thing). I think the main problem is dev being inspired *exclusively* by games.
That being said, I also think it's important to look at what similar games do yeah, for example I've seen a bunch of first time puzzle games kinda fail or miss obvious stuff because the dev didn't try other games in the genre. I think that's what makes good creators at this point, since it'll not just be about playing games, but knowing what needs to be incorporated in your game or not, and like everything with games, it depends on your goals. Turns out going against every modern puzzle knowledge went pretty well for Void Strangers, so yeah, if people have a clear and strong enough vision, it might also work out.
Edit: I forgot but also yeah, I'd say variety is more important than volume. It's more interesting to see how different genre solve similar problems, what their respective conventions are, etc. than to play 10s of games in a similar genre and nothing else. Basically: I think playing lots of games can be a good practice, but it has to be conscious, and as exhaustive as possible for one person.
I agree with you. I think it also depends on the creator. I’m naturally drawn to new and wacky games I’ve never experienced because I’m looking for new ways of thinking about games, and not everyone is doing that. Variety is a good way to put it. Devs need to variety. This video was about playing and trying to give devs permissions and reasons to go play because I see so many not doing so. There are plenty of people shouting about game jams and being creative for its own sake… similarly because of the reality of being a nerd, I think outsider art will always happen… and I think it can happen on purpose if one constricts their gaming diet.
On a base level devs should be playing some games just to know the basic language of games.
But you are totally right about there being space and necessity for creativity and jam projects for their own sake. Games based on nothing often lead to really original ideas.
However after you make these new ideas, they often need to polished and translated into what a modern audience expects in order for them to pop off.
To play more games? You don’t have to tell me twice!:)
Understood. Downloading League.
😂 no!!
Pls okay but someone buy all my wishlist. Only over 10k games :}
One game at a time homie 😂
I wish I liked creating more than playing.
I was thinking about this too. Nothing wrong with playing. If you really want to make something you’ll do it
I dont think they have barely any time to play games
I talked about that a bit at the end. It less about playing fully and more about exposure. If you have a spare 10 mins you have time to boot something up and learn from it.
I do
its hard to put time into playing games when you dedicate your time to learning to develop and actually developing games. indie game dev is a very lonely road if you dont come from a job and most of that time is put to technical aspects of it. If you play games as an indie, most of the time they become lazy and dont learn the technical skills required to make a good game.
I get it. I work a full time non tech job, and have many other responsibilities. It’s all about the balance of learning dev and still squeezing a game or two in there.
Does your game play well on Ubuntu/Linux Mint?
I don’t see why it wouldn’t but I haven’t tested it yet
Devs should play less games and make more experiences outside games. Inspiration and creativity increase as you look out of your specific field.
This too. I’m continually inspired by books, travel, and other creative hobbies I have that give me ideas for my game… but that was beyond the scope of the video. Go play UFO 50 and tell me you aren’t inspired to take a similar approach when making your own games. It’s about getting to know the depth of the craft through studying experts. The truly original ideas come from elsewhere and your raw creativity, but the know how, the ability to execute on those ideas in ways that pull players in, those skills are found within the medium.
How i find what games to play tho
Subscribe, i gotchu covered
Thank. You.
I play a shitload of games :) good video!
Keep up the good work 🫡
Great video, what is the name of this game? 2:37
Thank you. That’s Bushido Ball in UFO 50
but i don't like games so much, that's why i'm making things i want
It’s about finding the parts that you like and refining them in what you’re making. An art style, a mechanic, a character type, a menu layout. Even if you don’t like a game, every game has something to teach you.
@@Peebly I mean sure, so many ways to enhance things. I think it's maybe nicer for smaller details, which you would've otherwise perhaps just dismissed. One person can only invent so much anyway... usually. I think checking out games is important, but maybe you don't need to play them so much per game (unless you're investigating some long-term effects). Then again I think playing more games could be also important, because then you get a better picture of what are some "default" things people are used to, which they find intuitive, easy and maybe meaningful. Although of course some common thing in multiple different games might actually be something that people think is not so nice (or they might find it boring, even if it's specifically a thing that's common because that's kind of the most optimal, good solution).
@@rk-bumbumI think that’s why you need to cultivate an understanding of many games so you can understand that common annoyance, that would then give you a clear instance to innovate on. Something like guard towers in Ubisoft games is a clear example of a default that people might find annoying. Or even a tab layout in ui menus. If you play a lot of games you’d be familiar with these and may have an idea of how to fix it, thus allowing your game to stand out.
They are too busy getting crunched to play anything.
You’re totally right. I’m speaking mainly to indie devs or hobby devs. But triple A devs with time should also play more games
But there s no tiiiiiiime
2:17 yah 99.9% of devs don't care about this. The industry is overwhelmingly occupied by ground floor jobbers and non gamer execs.
Agreed
got some constructive criticism,
consider with care.
so, two things:
for one, devs NEED to play A LOT more games? you could just be suggesting that people COULD try to play more games to help themselves out, but will they absolutely be worse off without it? The reasons you gave are kind of vauge and not problematic enough to require that kind of persuasion, and could be slight projection? not certain about that, but I still feel its possible that youve overdone the presentation because of it.
secondly... how many more games, specifically? not exact quantities since thats silly ofc, but theres no ballpark to judge oneself upon besides maybe the end bit where you listed the games you played this year. Still, theres no clear answer as to whether the viewer should drastically up the ante or consider fitting in A Short Hike into their busy backlog theyve been tearing through, leaving the message kind of muddled since the video is more concerned with a few examples of taking inspiration from games to solve your problems (which can be unreliable anyways but thats besides the point) rather than clarifying and informing the viewer on how to act upon hearing "you need to play a lot more games". maybe they consider 3 completed games a year and replaying a few inspirational and relevant games good enough. I know I do. so perhaps be more specific about that, eh?
overall the argument is alright. the production quality and muddled messaging makes the experience a bit mehhh at points, sorry for the bluntness, and id love to see if these could be adressed in a future, more focused video. Cheers for reading my critisim to this point! I'm no expert myself and I mostly do it in hopes that it'll point out some issues that you think are worth fixing, provided you can appreciate negative critisim in good faith, and that itll make these videos more consistently entertaining and usefully informative, because you best be sure that ill be watching them :D
First of all, thanks for being willing to give constructive criticism. Well written and well deserved.
Second, I was waffling quite a bit while making this. I didnt want to make anyone feel like they were wrong in their approach to development or gaming. I intentionally tried to leave it a little vague knowing that everyone has a different process, and everyone needs to find their own process. Unfortunately there is no one correct formula.
I am still trying to figure out what theses essays are. They’re part dev log, part projected opinions, part inspiration bate… I still need to tune the balance.
Be assured I’ll focus on some defining some clearer points in the future. I may need to adjust my scope so all the ideas I have don’t bleed into each other.
Thanks again! And thanks for watching!
what if you play more games and develop very little 😂
As long as you’re happy that’s all that matters!
Nu uh
“Alot”
sorry, I’m out
😅 I fixed it in the pinned comment. I can’t re upload without deleting the video
I disagree. You just get the same things over and over and it becomes a feedback loop of arbitrary convention. The developers of Pokemon, Minecraft, and Zelda, for example, were inspired by real life, not other games, first and foremost. Your approach makes games stand out less because almost every indie game now is a quirki, "deep", shader-filled, genre-defying, hard-to-follow mess inspired by the same games every other game was. Celeste. Undertale. Minecraft. Hollow Knight. All with this fake sense of awe that you tell yourself these games make you feel.
The more games you play, the more games stay the same.
You need to understand the rules to the break them.
Also, Pokémon was itself based on the genre conventions laid out by dragon warrior.
Zelda and Minecraft are very original but as both have grown In popularity the added genre conventions only help them to break more records.
The best selling Zelda to date is heavily inspired by assassins creed.
Yet the core is what remains innovative.
One must understand the rules to break them.
@@Peebly
You're missing an important part of what I wrote. It's a feedback loop. Games based on games based on games... it's a game of telephone, really. Conventions without knowing why they are followed, are of no value. You should study the formative early games before anything else if you're gonna learn the rules of video games. The games where form was borne out of the desired function. The games that created genres or created widely enjoyed extensions to the concept. Then you will know why games do things a certain way. The actual utility.
Basing your games off other modern indie games that have already "broken the rules" will not teach you the rules. That will only teach you to make games in the currently fashionable style, without flexibility. Why not start with a basic, simple game concept, as clean as chess? The essence of the kind of game you want. Then encounter the design questions for yourself and find your own answers! That's where you will find creativity.
bro are you okay
@@poleve5409 What a strange comment to leave. Of course I am. Am I not okay because I disagreed with this video and had my own ideas? Are we supposed to be an echo chamber?
@@TheBcoolGuy that's not what I meant but I don't feel like explaining