To give my opinion on the AI, it's still definitely bad (Stealing people's art is never ok and it also isn't exactly great for the environment), but it's not so bad that the game as a whole should be discarded. Something like the ability to import models would have been better.
I can believe it. What's difficult to think about now, is which game will get to its full release first? This one, or Star Citizen? IF either one gets completed at all that is.
I kinda can. At least when Dreamworld 1st came up, we've seen them TRY something. Badly yes... sometimes taking weeks to do something that takes a few mins... but we've seen them DO something.) With Earth 2, outside of trying to monetize whatever they can, what has Earth 2 really do?
I'm not really that surprised. It has all to do with the details. Both started out with their creators in charge being liars, incompetent and so on. But these two involved with Dreamworld showed SOME willingness to learn and get on with it, even though they'd made stupid mistakes. Unlike Shane Isaac who has remained even more of a lying, incompetent scumbag as he started. He's done things like continually exaplin that things have changed when he does things like buy up a small studio that turns out a drone game. And then nothing happens. And then again he makes another promise and nothing happens, and round and round he goes. These aren't the same and while it is very unusual it's to be applauded.
Its really nice to see that Zack's ex was entirely right when she said she didn't think it was a scam. Like even after their break up she still had a bunch of faith in him and his abilities and that is frankly really sweet.
Crazy to think Dreamworld is still being worked on. Despite the strange handling and scandal from the beginning, I wish the developers the best of luck. Seemed like they bit off more than they could chew
would be really cool for this to fully be realized like other games have been and not end up like Cube World that had such a long history but never fully worked out an pretty much just fuked the creator up emotionally for so long
When I first heard about dreamworld I was thinking "oh, more of these "entrepreneurs" going for a scam". But with how long they kept working on it, and as I saw in this video, their willingness to repay people and listen or talk to creators giving feedback, they proved me wrong. I wish them the best of luck and hope their project will succeed
I mean they still lied about pretty much everything to get money from people. Its nice that they stuck to it but its much worse than "bit off more than they could chew".
@@marcotruschel9427 I watched I think it was Josh livestream maybe a year ago or at least sping 2024. and he said that he was supprised by how far it gotten and how it now was an actuall game. and not in that it now was a lots of unity/unreal assets slapped together (might still be) but the code was cleaned up it was adjusted and fitted for the role they was going from. .... (trying to remember what movie it was but it was about one of the early satellite to be launched the first satellite was made out of several induvidual part each project had made the result was that it did not fit in the capsule and there was still a critical component that needed to get in but it just could not be fitted. the chief points out the problem and that it needs to be fixed... it then cuts to some time later and he comes in and the whole satellite now fits in a much smaller unit as every part/project had come together and maximized part uses so instead of each component having its own power adapter they all now used one and each part was used in several project/experiments intead of each having a copy of the same compnent to cut down space and be more efficient). I get the same feeling from Dreamworld now. it have gone from not only a case of several poorly fitted together pieces that on paper work to, it still 100% prefabs but now it actually works like a proper set up gaming PC. to they made there own parts just to get better performance so that they can do what they set out to do.
I was playing an MMO the other night and someone was talking Dreamworld up a lot. I was sitting there thinking "wait, isn't that that scam game from years ago?" So I when this video popped up on my feed, I had to check it out.
@ChampionBlueRacing Nah, they got AI to do the creating for them. Just put a prompt and bam, it's there. And now it's coming onto Steam. A superior place to play games is now getting by far quite a big sham of a game lol
@@wolfy6815 they are using AI. last I heard it was more that they got there shit together and also found some actually devs that knew network and made a working solution. (that and they just pulled the scope of the game back a lot to a more advanced Minecraft (as of now).
Everybody wins, then. Customers got refunded. Customers, who still believe in the project, seem to enjoy what is there now. The company accepts advice and improves with a good chance to become famous. Drama farmers get their redemption arc video. They maybe found a non-malicious use of AI assets. Big W
seems that they are honestly wanting to redeem themself, i would love to see a no mans sky situation but for now we just have to wait to see how this is going to end.
Honestly if Dreamworld actually becomes good that might be more impressive than No Man's Sky because No Man's Sky on release was at least functional as a video game while Dreamworld had nothing.
Add this to the pile of things we never thought we would see but happened anyway in 2024 along with Mr Beast getting exposed, Nikocado Avocado losing weight, and Asmongold cleaning his house
As somebody who came from a place of unmovable bad faith, I'm actually really happy to see them actually put out this level of effort. I'm proud of what I'm being told and shown. They're taking risks on the own behalves in order to repair their images.
@@FlareStorms Yeah. Turns out their really shady history wasn't as indicitive of their actual character as we thought. People often forget that incompetence is much more common than malice. Good to hear that they're putting in the work to prove that they're neither. 👌
Mad respect for you, as you first criticized them, observed how they advanced, and while keeping healthy skepticism, you seem to have changed your mind towards a positive take. I still doubt the game will ever be what they promised, but this video was nice to see.
There's no way... At least I'll give them props for tanking the (deserved) assault of negativity and continuing working on it. They went from "fuuuuck that" to "hm. Wait and see", which is a massive step up. Consider my mind boggled
I feel like I'm only ok with generative ai being in released works if the dataset it pulls from is 100% copyright free(or owned by the creators). Generative ai is cool but I feel like it shouldn't be a replacement. What dreamworld is doing here is actually a cool way of utilising ai in a way that would be extremely difficult to achieve otherwise. But again, if it's using a dataset of models it doesn't actually have the right to use, then that's bad
Disagreed. This is not a standard we tend to expect from artists and other folks who use pre-existing material. No one is expected to make sure everything that can influence their work is copyright free or allowed by the creators. Same should apply generative AI.
@@olivercharles2930 I'm not a ai expert but I'm pretty sure that comparison doesn't apply. A better comparison would be if an artist grabbed a bunch of images and morphed them together in photoshop. That might be artistic in and of itself but it'd be a problem if it happened on mass by corporations in commercial works. ai isn't sentient, it doesn't get inspired and draws something new. It sees your prompts and finds matching keywords in it's dataset and tries to fit it into the output.
@@SilvaLord321 That is not really accurate though. AI does not morph images together, it applies patterns learned from many, many images to form entirely new images. Moving on, AI doesn't really have to be sentient, does it? That is a rather arbitrary rule, Lastly, what else do you call making new images from old but inspiration? Practically speaking, it is no less new than anything an artist can come up with. No one makes art in a vacuum.
these could be the luckiest game devs in history. Nanite and generative AI fell from the sky and landed in their lap and made their dreamworld possible
@@tetrisgonzo37 exactly. the tech we use in our daily lives is not very different either. it's just that we have established laws for them now, whereas there is essentially none for AI.
So Dreamworld became an actual game while Nightmare World just went silent and I assume stopped existing. That's an outcome I didn't expect those 2 years ago...
@@GerardMenvussa If your main motivation is another game doing something badly, I guess you don't have much motivation to keep going when the hate dies.
@@MaakaSakuranbo I remember it having a decent start though. It was not hate that motivated that game, it's the disappointment when DW turned out to be, apparently, a scam. I still don't know if I would want to trust DW now, by contrast.
Honestly, considering how callum treated it as a spite game to prove how bad the dreamworld devs were; his promises that nightmare world would actually become a finished game were kinda obviously hollow, in retrospect. I mean, a game that exists to just prove how easy it is to do the things the other devs were doing, and do it better, has zero direction to go in from the very start.
I personally don't have a problem with them using AI like this if the model was trained on a dataset where every model's artist explicity allowed it to be used for AI training purposes (so no bullshit TOS stuff like how Adobe and X did it). I would love to know more about how they offered a full refund, like how did they try to let purchasers know that it is an option. Would also be nice to know what they are trying to achieve, like a core set of features and their vision for the gameplay loop
"if the model was trained on a dataset where every model's artist explicity allowed it to be used for AI training purposes" Which isn't how genAI works. It's web scraper grabbing whatever they find, regardless of whether or not they have the right to it (and let's face it, regardless of whether or not artists "opted out", which they shouldn't have to do anyway).
@@FelisImpurrator But I think we excluded those with the "no bullshit TOS stuff" part. The fundamental thing about these models is that they need huge amounts of input data to do anything sensible. They could start with something like Stable Diffusion and then only do *refining* of that model with things they had licenses for or something, sure. But like no small-to-mid-sized company can just go specifically to every single person whose work goes into a model and get an actual signed consent and get enough data to make anything meaningful. Either they are just already sitting on a giant data pile they already have all the rights to (but where the people who made those things still might not be happy about it) or it's not happening.
@@Nassifeh the bullshit tos stuff is how adobe scrapped all their adobe user made stock images, templates, etc for sale on their marketplace. because they could via the terms of service. the artists, photographers, etc did not realize they had consented to it over the past decade of selling a few stock images, they had their content automatically turned into the basis of adobe firefly. it's technically legal but extremely scummy to use the creative works of your customers to build a competitor to their livelihood.
I feel like the closest approximation of what this looks like is vocaloids. While its not true AI, it does transform existing, unique exprrssive human output in a way that becomes a tool for others to use- but through an explicit licensing and agreement setup. There's definitely BS in the vocaloid industry, but you can at least, hypothetically, trace voices to contributors or know that the people gave up credits voluntarily, to the source of what becomes the product in the end.
What ever happened to Nightmare Land or whatever the DreamWorld parody was that was giving genuine updates, had a seasonal weather system that affected certain props, and allowed you to mine gems?
@@defaulted9485so Callum and his team had no problem making Nightmare World out of spite to show Zach and Gary how a game is suppose to be done. But once the Dream World hype had gone, they couldn't continue the game.
@@defaulted9485so Callum and his team had no problem making Nightmare World out of spite to show Zach and Gary how a game is suppose to be done. But once the Dream World hype had gone, they couldn't continue the game.
@@defaulted9485 Their entire point was "we'll be trnsparent about everything" and then proceeded to not be transparent at all by cancelling it without any word this isnt even clsoe to just "day job is the priority"
That's just the thing you see. In truth, almost nobody wants to see a game in development fail. All the criticism that Dream World faced was due to the way it was being developed on the hostile and disingenuous way that feedback was being handled. In stock contrast, it seems that the developers have finally decided to actually change their entire approach to the development of the game, but also to feedback. It seems that they have grown, matured, and are actually taking this seriously. And that is extremely commendable. And at this point in time, I wish them nothing but success. I would love for them to make a badass MMO that serves a niche that only they can really service.
AI is absolutely replacing some 3D jobs here, since otherwise players would commission 3D artists to create the avatars/personalised assets for them - like it's happening in VRchat.
Yeah. Very much this. Yes there are alternatives to 3D model generation trained on 3D models made by people. It's where the training sets were taken from. 3D artists can be commissioned. And 3D modeling is a skill that can be learnt, quite accessibly so with Blender nowadays.
Same would be the case if they built some easy and accesible modeling software into the game that was so easy that everyone could use. I really dont see how this could be a bad thing in a game where the world is supposed to be built by players. In vrchat there is only a small minority of players who actually hire 3D artists and if it was more accesible for people to create, then we would have had larger number of interesting worlds. Also in this case there is much more human creativity involved than actually just generating some AI image.
If someone would have told me when I first watched the Dreamworld Saga that they would make not only a functional, but a fun game I definitely would not have believed it. I think they should be proud of what they made. Creating a game isn't easy, and creating one after failing so publicly has got to be even harder mentally. I hope the game continues to get better and finds a good audience.
I’m not going to let them live down their ridiculous initial claims, not ever, but at least they’re trying to make something fun; hope they learned their lesson.
Regarding the AI 3d model creation: This feels like one of those instances that actually is alright for it. As it is being used as a feature of the game for players to create unique items/assets to place that would normally not have been created in the first place. Compared to actually being used to create the world assets in general. Hopefully they will manage some method to verify that something created is acceptable, and then become visible to other players, but that would likely take a fair bit of extra moderation that isn't available at this time.
I gotta admit, thats quite a improvement and i gotta give credit where credit is due. Hopefully at this rate, they can make a decent game. And if it is good, I'll be more than happy to play it with no negative bias
this feels like that cousin you have that was always getting into trouble when younger, then, started to mature and become someone you can be proud of lol
Kudos to them to manage to improve and do an 180º turn instead of giving up. I hope they continue this way and manage to release a game that they can be proud of it.
I wish you elaborated more on why the building system of DreamWorld is well-designed and even superior to other systems tbh. If it is actually good we should give them credit where credit is due.
I actually appreciate that you take the time to talk about a fiasco that actually improved and that the people behind it is trying to make it work. I may actually check dream world out if the interview is interesting enough
re: the use of their AI. Whether or not its taking away someone's job I think might be missing the forest for the trees here: what it's taking away is our need for a social space where we need to interact and work with others to get stuff done. Think of the vibrant markets and communities around VRchat or Second Life, and even around something like FFXIV, which I'm sure we can all agree is more of a walled garden than VRchat. It's one thing that these creators do get compensated a lot of the time, but the community that gathers around these customisation features is the real gain. AI is destructive not just in a market sense, but in a social one. If tech bros get what they want (and this IS what they want), you wouldn't rely on other people for things you need when an AI can do it - and it will be THEIR AI. They want you to rely on them for everything, and to do that they need you to stop relying on others. Tech wants all your attention, all the time, in every space, in every community. That said, the fact that only you can see what you generate is good. That way at least if you actually want to share something cool, then you have to either make it yourself or engage with people; and I argue that in a supposed MMO, it'd be a bad idea to discourage that.
Does this mean that you stopped developing Nightmare world so that it didn't overshadow Dreamworld? Or are you hoping that everyone just forgets that Nightmare World was a thing?!
Honestly there’s a lot to appreciate here- glad your channel exists! And I’m sure the reason they’re even succeeding right now is because of all the wrathful lessons they got on development.
I never thought this name would ever pop up again, especially in a positive light. While it's not my cuppa, I'm glad that it wasn't just a scam in the end and that they just kept working on it.
This is what happens when you put pride aside, sit, listen to others opinion and handle the information given like a professional. I missed you Callum. I'm always excited when you release a video!
I can't believe that one year later this changed SO much! From a cashgrab shitshow assetflip to something actually playable. Honestly, kudos to them for getting a grip, for doing the right thing and for making something actually enjoyable. I would have NEVER thought they would change from being basically scam artists to an actual game studio. I would really love to hear more about what changed and how they did it, since I feel like this is one of the very very rare success stories.
I absolutely thought it got rugpulled because of the lack of videos in the last year or so, damn surprised to see they've actually done a lot of work to fix it!
Earth 2 and Dreamworld are those two games I ´ve been following frivolously back then. You, Kira, Deepfry (before he got annoying) and some other creators. This really was not on my bingo card, especially with all the controversy about the creators themselves but hey. Maybe not a game for me but it is good to see that they actually are working on this. The refund situation is kinda crazy, idk how are they getting budget but great thing to do.
I'm very happy to hear that Deam World is actually going somewhere. When I saw @14:20, the picture of the creator he looked more mature. Like he has changed and this is a positive force in his life.
The AI models thing actually sounds really cool, I agree that it probably leans more into the side of being okay. The only issue I see is whether or not the AI has been trained on data the team can legally use. If you could ask a question during the interview about what data that AI system has been trained on, I think that would help clear things up.
As a concept, I *really* like that Dreamforge in a game like this. I love the idea of being able to be like "I want this." but then the game devs are like "but we didn't design that." They can't possibly design everything. Properly implemented, AI generation in an open world game designed for player freedom and creativity can be amazing.
I really appreciate you making this video and you upholding your integrity and objectivity. It's easy to take that for granted, but it's really not in this world where negativity is rewarded with more views than fair assessments. Beyond that I'm also pleasantly surprised by the development of Dreamworld.
This Dreamworld AI maker is basically what I use AI for in my D&D games. Helps me get original character designs and add things to maps that are custom to the campaign. I could spend the time making it myself, but that really does take a lot of prep time and isn't something the player is going to feel as much as thinking of organic storylines and plot hooks.
Wow, kudos to these guys. I could see how they could be so hype and everything if they were going to cut and run but getting the kind of reaction Dreamworld got and then maintaining motivation to actually see it through? I'm honestly very impressed. If nothing else I think Zack has proven himself in terms of his character and resolve, in making such an effort to deliver what he promised. Lets hope it reaches the stages of No-Mans Sky and becomes a beloved and respected game due to the continued commitment of it's developer to make it what was promised.
Holy Shit! I really think credit where it's due, but they seem to be on the right track to actually being a good indie. Started as over optimistic idiots, got humbled, and learned. Lets hope this goes upwards and onward.
Fantastic to hear! 😊 Also, your points on the AI generated content is spot on; I'd absolutely love to have access to a tool like that as an end user of a video game - but not at the cost of jobs.
@@igotes Assuming the /s at the end is referring to the "To the moon!" part. Is Callum actually making a crypto for NightmareWorld? That seems counter-productive.
For playing the game before the entry on steam . What i understand their roadmap for now is building focus and optimisation after that they will look for dungeon , aventure type of thing
You see when you have a impossible task you either have the best of the best to push beyond what is possible or you have someone so naive that they didn’t even know what is possible and literally stumble into it due to sheer luck, carelessness and brute force. Props to them
This seems like an actually proper use of AI. Having the assets stay locally for purely user-generated content is the way to go. Nobody is getting paid from user-generated content in the first place and keeping it locked to the user mitigates the social risks of AI content. I don't see how this use case is any more harmful than procedurally generated content in other games.
19:45 if the ai is generating player assest such as models ect, the only "job' it would be stealing would be those of people who wanted to make paid mods selling the same assets. (although if only the player who made them can see them they yeh not really hurting anyone probably)
This is the very best sort of story that I in no way ever expected. How lovely! I really like builders. I mean like really really like. BTW, I requested in for the alpha and "got in" in the next second.
15:27 - I don't know what kind of implications for the overall game does this AI generated system have, but being able to "dream up" a painting that you can just hang on a wall inside your base looks pretty fucking cool.
im glad that they stuck to things. that makes me happy to see in this world of scams and rug pulls that there are people who are passionate about something that may be in over their head to start but fight through it and make progress. We all start somewhere.
AI used as a tool instead of the product is what it needs to be. This example is kind of straddling the line, more in that it makes a product that can be used as a creative tool that being a tool creating product. The soul of what's being made is still coming from a right place, the players.
Honestly didn't expect this but also I'm all for them carrying on and I hope they can pull it off. It definitely seemed like they really overpromised on the game initially and are receptive to constructive, actual criticism like you have given them Callum.
Honnestly it's cool to have a few stories like this one from time to time. 👍🏻 Kudos to them for being genuine and still working on their game, and kudos to you on how you handeled the situation with stepping back, It's great, and we see your genuine reaction, and it's all great fun.
“Man I’m proud of em for trying to make it work, it’s still kind of crappy that they just took all that money without being able to deliver but at least they’re genuine” “Oh yeah and they offered everyone refunds” “OH”
I’m really glad dreamworld changed for the better! Question for the interview: Do they think the negative reaction they received initially from the internet was warranted? If they don’t, I’d like to hear why.
Facinating. I first found your channel through Dreamworld, I believe, and I found the whole saga incredible. And as entertaining as it would have been to see it continueously devolve into a hilarious mess, I have to admit this is the better outcome. Hopefully the devs will continue to grow and people will get a game they actually want to play.
Stories like this are more evidence that Earth 2 is not only accidentally incompetent but actively a "scam." DW is building a better game, with less money and experience... but E2 repeatedly chooses not to improve almost anything without a down-payment from their audience.
In regards to AI usage, it is a really tricky area. The sticker for me is still the origin of these models. The training data harvests thousands if not millions of models from online, the copyright of many of which are owned and licensed by many, many artists. The only way for these AI to become as good as they are now is by stealing that content... or... for the company to pay several artists to license their work to train their models off of. So I guess in addition to usage, it comes down to how the models obtained their training data - legitimately or illegitimately. That's just my two cents.
These developers have proven a philosophy about game development I've had for a long time now. There is *almost* nothing that cannot be fixed when the people making games and those they are making them for work in concert. The amount of testing and feedback that the community has given them, and that has been acted upon by the team, is nothing short of incredible. It was their openness and receptiveness which sold me on the project early on. Even when the rest of the internet believed it was nothing but a scam, I never regretted backing them on kickstarter at the highest tier(and then some). This was the ultimate high-risk crowdfunding venture for me. There were good reasons to doubt them, and It's true, the game was pretty atrocious in alpha. We joke about them releasing Dreamworld classic all the time where we're all orbs floating around and everything is jank AF. Still they seemed committed to doing the best job they possibly could to deliver, and I think that more than anything is why the community supported them as much as we have.
![[Free] Sad Drill Type Beat Melodic Guitar "Choix" Instru Rap Instrumental Drill Melodieuse 2024](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ojxtcynmMng/mqdefault.jpg)
Try out Scars of Honor during the test phase: beast.ly/lz4CIUf
I'd rather gouge my eyes out than try out Another fucking Albion Online.
Wow, they actually have a linux launcher. That's genuinely impressive
Edit: and it doesn't work properly for me lmao.
To give my opinion on the AI, it's still definitely bad (Stealing people's art is never ok and it also isn't exactly great for the environment), but it's not so bad that the game as a whole should be discarded. Something like the ability to import models would have been better.
I can't believe that Dreamworld has had more progress than Earth 2
aint that the truth...
I can believe it. What's difficult to think about now, is which game will get to its full release first? This one, or Star Citizen? IF either one gets completed at all that is.
I kinda can. At least when Dreamworld 1st came up, we've seen them TRY something. Badly yes... sometimes taking weeks to do something that takes a few mins... but we've seen them DO something.)
With Earth 2, outside of trying to monetize whatever they can, what has Earth 2 really do?
I'm not really that surprised. It has all to do with the details.
Both started out with their creators in charge being liars, incompetent and so on. But these two involved with Dreamworld showed SOME willingness to learn and get on with it, even though they'd made stupid mistakes.
Unlike Shane Isaac who has remained even more of a lying, incompetent scumbag as he started. He's done things like continually exaplin that things have changed when he does things like buy up a small studio that turns out a drone game. And then nothing happens. And then again he makes another promise and nothing happens, and round and round he goes.
These aren't the same and while it is very unusual it's to be applauded.
Dreamworld has, as far as I see it, been 1000 times more of a game from the start than E2 ever have or will be.
Its really nice to see that Zack's ex was entirely right when she said she didn't think it was a scam. Like even after their break up she still had a bunch of faith in him and his abilities and that is frankly really sweet.
We got a Dreamworld redemption arc before GTA 6
LMAOO
We got dreamworld before Star Citizen!
@@TheInternetHelpdeskPlays At this pace, we're going to get gta 6 before Star Citizen
@@gravidust.2 Us real OG's out here waiting for Half Life 3
Let us make GTA VI in Dreamworld.
Looking back at Dreamworld, it was pure and sweet in comparison to those new NFT scams
Was not on my Bingo card
Nice meme
I'd be shocked if this was on a 100x100 bingo card.
Crazy to think Dreamworld is still being worked on. Despite the strange handling and scandal from the beginning, I wish the developers the best of luck. Seemed like they bit off more than they could chew
would be really cool for this to fully be realized like other games have been and not end up like Cube World that had such a long history but never fully worked out an pretty much just fuked the creator up emotionally for so long
When I first heard about dreamworld I was thinking "oh, more of these "entrepreneurs" going for a scam". But with how long they kept working on it, and as I saw in this video, their willingness to repay people and listen or talk to creators giving feedback, they proved me wrong. I wish them the best of luck and hope their project will succeed
I mean they still lied about pretty much everything to get money from people. Its nice that they stuck to it but its much worse than "bit off more than they could chew".
@@marcotruschel9427 I watched I think it was Josh livestream maybe a year ago or at least sping 2024.
and he said that he was supprised by how far it gotten and how it now was an actuall game.
and not in that it now was a lots of unity/unreal assets slapped together (might still be) but the code was cleaned up it was adjusted and fitted for the role they was going from.
....
(trying to remember what movie it was but it was about one of the early satellite to be launched the first satellite was made out of several
induvidual part each project had made the result was that it did not fit in the capsule and there was still a critical component that needed to get in but it just could not be fitted.
the chief points out the problem and that it needs to be fixed... it then cuts to some time later and he comes in and the whole satellite now fits in a much smaller unit as every part/project had come together and maximized part uses so instead of each component having its own power adapter they all now used one and each part was used in several project/experiments intead of each having a copy of the same compnent to cut down space and be more efficient).
I get the same feeling from Dreamworld now.
it have gone from not only a case of several poorly fitted together pieces that on paper work to, it still 100% prefabs but now it actually works like a proper set up gaming PC.
to they made there own parts just to get better performance so that they can do what they set out to do.
Here's hoping for a no man's sky 2: electric boogaloo type of redemption
oh my god i've not heard the name dreamworld in so long. this is certainly a blast from the past
I was playing an MMO the other night and someone was talking Dreamworld up a lot. I was sitting there thinking "wait, isn't that that scam game from years ago?" So I when this video popped up on my feed, I had to check it out.
Dang I didn't think Dreamworld was even still going on after this long. I figured Zack and Gary would have killed this off by now.
@ChampionBlueRacing Nah, they got AI to do the creating for them. Just put a prompt and bam, it's there. And now it's coming onto Steam. A superior place to play games is now getting by far quite a big sham of a game lol
@@wolfy6815 they are using AI.
last I heard it was more that they got there shit together and also found some actually devs that knew network and made a working solution.
(that and they just pulled the scope of the game back a lot to a more advanced Minecraft (as of now).
@@wolfy6815the ai stuff is just a gimmick. 😂😂😂
Everybody wins, then.
Customers got refunded.
Customers, who still believe in the project, seem to enjoy what is there now.
The company accepts advice and improves with a good chance to become famous.
Drama farmers get their redemption arc video.
They maybe found a non-malicious use of AI assets.
Big W
seems that they are honestly wanting to redeem themself, i would love to see a no mans sky situation but for now we just have to wait to see how this is going to end.
Honestly if Dreamworld actually becomes good that might be more impressive than No Man's Sky because No Man's Sky on release was at least functional as a video game while Dreamworld had nothing.
@@GamersHolyArmy dreamworld had the dreams and the memes behind it.
No Man's Sky was an actual game
This was just a fever dream that can still not come close to the imposible promises
No Man's Sky was an actual game
This was just a fever dream that can still not come close to the imposible promises
Add this to the pile of things we never thought we would see but happened anyway in 2024 along with Mr Beast getting exposed, Nikocado Avocado losing weight, and Asmongold cleaning his house
Asmongold went back to being a straight up caveman. Also he has made no changes to his horrid personality.
And Donald Trump getting elected as the 47th president of the US
that asmongold streamer cleaning his domicile was the last thing i expected to happen -- right next to earth being flat.
@@jerkomirko no one cares about your politics, american. begone with that shi-
@@jerkomirko No I don't think that was much of a surprise. I mean, it was a total wash -- Kamala lost by 5 million or so votes.
As somebody who came from a place of unmovable bad faith, I'm actually really happy to see them actually put out this level of effort. I'm proud of what I'm being told and shown. They're taking risks on the own behalves in order to repair their images.
same here! Like these are the "my wife, sigh.... left me" guys, right? These schmoozers are _actually_ making the game?
@@FlareStorms Yeah. Turns out their really shady history wasn't as indicitive of their actual character as we thought. People often forget that incompetence is much more common than malice.
Good to hear that they're putting in the work to prove that they're neither. 👌
@@AlphaOmega1237 and that people can work on their character and change, which is lovely!
Mad respect for you, as you first criticized them, observed how they advanced, and while keeping healthy skepticism, you seem to have changed your mind towards a positive take.
I still doubt the game will ever be what they promised, but this video was nice to see.
I was about to say that. Thanks to Callum for being a mature individual.
There's no way... At least I'll give them props for tanking the (deserved) assault of negativity and continuing working on it. They went from "fuuuuck that" to "hm. Wait and see", which is a massive step up. Consider my mind boggled
So Dreamworld does procedural generation better than Starfield.
😂
Bethesda is trash
oh my god, you are right 😂
To be fair, the bar isn't exactly that high...
I feel like I'm only ok with generative ai being in released works if the dataset it pulls from is 100% copyright free(or owned by the creators). Generative ai is cool but I feel like it shouldn't be a replacement. What dreamworld is doing here is actually a cool way of utilising ai in a way that would be extremely difficult to achieve otherwise. But again, if it's using a dataset of models it doesn't actually have the right to use, then that's bad
from my research, meshy.ai (the one they use) are using licensed assets for ai training
These are my same thoughts but put into words better than I could put it.
Disagreed. This is not a standard we tend to expect from artists and other folks who use pre-existing material. No one is expected to make sure everything that can influence their work is copyright free or allowed by the creators.
Same should apply generative AI.
@@olivercharles2930 I'm not a ai expert but I'm pretty sure that comparison doesn't apply. A better comparison would be if an artist grabbed a bunch of images and morphed them together in photoshop. That might be artistic in and of itself but it'd be a problem if it happened on mass by corporations in commercial works. ai isn't sentient, it doesn't get inspired and draws something new. It sees your prompts and finds matching keywords in it's dataset and tries to fit it into the output.
@@SilvaLord321 That is not really accurate though. AI does not morph images together, it applies patterns learned from many, many images to form entirely new images.
Moving on, AI doesn't really have to be sentient, does it? That is a rather arbitrary rule,
Lastly, what else do you call making new images from old but inspiration? Practically speaking, it is no less new than anything an artist can come up with. No one makes art in a vacuum.
these could be the luckiest game devs in history. Nanite and generative AI fell from the sky and landed in their lap and made their dreamworld possible
None of these things can create the game, a game that is worth playing anyway.
@@ArksideGamesyou alongside many people, seem to forget that those could be used as a TOOL for a dev, not as a replacement for any human input
@@tetrisgonzo37 exactly. the tech we use in our daily lives is not very different either. it's just that we have established laws for them now, whereas there is essentially none for AI.
So Dreamworld became an actual game while Nightmare World just went silent and I assume stopped existing. That's an outcome I didn't expect those 2 years ago...
Yeap. Funny how they went quite when Dream World hype died.
Is NW the game that was being made in response to DW being a huge disappointment? Kinda sad it wend nowhere :/
@@GerardMenvussa If your main motivation is another game doing something badly, I guess you don't have much motivation to keep going when the hate dies.
@@MaakaSakuranbo I remember it having a decent start though. It was not hate that motivated that game, it's the disappointment when DW turned out to be, apparently, a scam.
I still don't know if I would want to trust DW now, by contrast.
Honestly, considering how callum treated it as a spite game to prove how bad the dreamworld devs were; his promises that nightmare world would actually become a finished game were kinda obviously hollow, in retrospect.
I mean, a game that exists to just prove how easy it is to do the things the other devs were doing, and do it better, has zero direction to go in from the very start.
I personally don't have a problem with them using AI like this if the model was trained on a dataset where every model's artist explicity allowed it to be used for AI training purposes (so no bullshit TOS stuff like how Adobe and X did it).
I would love to know more about how they offered a full refund, like how did they try to let purchasers know that it is an option.
Would also be nice to know what they are trying to achieve, like a core set of features and their vision for the gameplay loop
"if the model was trained on a dataset where every model's artist explicity allowed it to be used for AI training purposes"
Which isn't how genAI works. It's web scraper grabbing whatever they find, regardless of whether or not they have the right to it (and let's face it, regardless of whether or not artists "opted out", which they shouldn't have to do anyway).
@@SsnakeBiteExcept it is how some closed genAI networks operate. You're describing mass market platforms like Midjourney.
@@FelisImpurrator But I think we excluded those with the "no bullshit TOS stuff" part. The fundamental thing about these models is that they need huge amounts of input data to do anything sensible. They could start with something like Stable Diffusion and then only do *refining* of that model with things they had licenses for or something, sure. But like no small-to-mid-sized company can just go specifically to every single person whose work goes into a model and get an actual signed consent and get enough data to make anything meaningful. Either they are just already sitting on a giant data pile they already have all the rights to (but where the people who made those things still might not be happy about it) or it's not happening.
@@Nassifeh the bullshit tos stuff is how adobe scrapped all their adobe user made stock images, templates, etc for sale on their marketplace. because they could via the terms of service. the artists, photographers, etc did not realize they had consented to it over the past decade of selling a few stock images, they had their content automatically turned into the basis of adobe firefly. it's technically legal but extremely scummy to use the creative works of your customers to build a competitor to their livelihood.
I feel like the closest approximation of what this looks like is vocaloids.
While its not true AI, it does transform existing, unique exprrssive human output in a way that becomes a tool for others to use- but through an explicit licensing and agreement setup.
There's definitely BS in the vocaloid industry, but you can at least, hypothetically, trace voices to contributors or know that the people gave up credits voluntarily, to the source of what becomes the product in the end.
What ever happened to Nightmare Land or whatever the DreamWorld parody was that was giving genuine updates, had a seasonal weather system that affected certain props, and allowed you to mine gems?
Iirc its on pause.
Considering Dreamworld has investors while Nightmare World isn't, jobs with pays takes priorities.
@@defaulted9485so Callum and his team had no problem making Nightmare World out of spite to show Zach and Gary how a game is suppose to be done. But once the Dream World hype had gone, they couldn't continue the game.
@@defaulted9485so Callum and his team had no problem making Nightmare World out of spite to show Zach and Gary how a game is suppose to be done. But once the Dream World hype had gone, they couldn't continue the game.
@@defaulted9485 Their entire point was "we'll be trnsparent about everything" and then proceeded to not be transparent at all by cancelling it without any word this isnt even clsoe to just "day job is the priority"
Who cares? It was a hobby game made by hobbyist. No money involved. They can quit if they want.
However, they do deserve some humble pie.
That's just the thing you see. In truth, almost nobody wants to see a game in development fail. All the criticism that Dream World faced was due to the way it was being developed on the hostile and disingenuous way that feedback was being handled.
In stock contrast, it seems that the developers have finally decided to actually change their entire approach to the development of the game, but also to feedback. It seems that they have grown, matured, and are actually taking this seriously. And that is extremely commendable. And at this point in time, I wish them nothing but success. I would love for them to make a badass MMO that serves a niche that only they can really service.
erm it's actually "stark contrast"
☝🤓
AI is absolutely replacing some 3D jobs here, since otherwise players would commission 3D artists to create the avatars/personalised assets for them - like it's happening in VRchat.
Yeah. Very much this. Yes there are alternatives to 3D model generation trained on 3D models made by people. It's where the training sets were taken from. 3D artists can be commissioned. And 3D modeling is a skill that can be learnt, quite accessibly so with Blender nowadays.
Same would be the case if they built some easy and accesible modeling software into the game that was so easy that everyone could use.
I really dont see how this could be a bad thing in a game where the world is supposed to be built by players. In vrchat there is only a small minority of players who actually hire 3D artists and if it was more accesible for people to create, then we would have had larger number of interesting worlds.
Also in this case there is much more human creativity involved than actually just generating some AI image.
The video starts around 9:00
Saw this comment exactly 8:59 😂
@@kristofferkling9567 same lmao
Thanks, I was already thinking: when does he ever get to the point.
If someone would have told me when I first watched the Dreamworld Saga that they would make not only a functional, but a fun game I definitely would not have believed it. I think they should be proud of what they made. Creating a game isn't easy, and creating one after failing so publicly has got to be even harder mentally. I hope the game continues to get better and finds a good audience.
I’m not going to let them live down their ridiculous initial claims, not ever, but at least they’re trying to make something fun; hope they learned their lesson.
Well, I always felt like they were not malicious, but more like... clueless idiots that got into it headfirst. I like these types of people.
Hanlon's Razor
@@nexus_87-t5c Oh nice one
I did not expect this at all, but I'm glad they're fixing it. Maybe we have another No Man's Sky situation on our hands here
I did not have "dreamworld looks like a game now" on my 2024 bingo card
Regarding the AI 3d model creation: This feels like one of those instances that actually is alright for it. As it is being used as a feature of the game for players to create unique items/assets to place that would normally not have been created in the first place. Compared to actually being used to create the world assets in general. Hopefully they will manage some method to verify that something created is acceptable, and then become visible to other players, but that would likely take a fair bit of extra moderation that isn't available at this time.
I gotta admit, thats quite a improvement and i gotta give credit where credit is due. Hopefully at this rate, they can make a decent game.
And if it is good, I'll be more than happy to play it with no negative bias
Wait.... what? this things still around? How is Nightmareworld though?
this feels like that cousin you have that was always getting into trouble when younger, then, started to mature and become someone you can be proud of lol
Kudos to them to manage to improve and do an 180º turn instead of giving up. I hope they continue this way and manage to release a game that they can be proud of it.
I wish you elaborated more on why the building system of DreamWorld is well-designed and even superior to other systems tbh. If it is actually good we should give them credit where credit is due.
The video title is a massive understatement. How'd Dream World go from looking like a massive scam to looking actually good?!
I actually appreciate that you take the time to talk about a fiasco that actually improved and that the people behind it is trying to make it work. I may actually check dream world out if the interview is interesting enough
re: the use of their AI. Whether or not its taking away someone's job I think might be missing the forest for the trees here: what it's taking away is our need for a social space where we need to interact and work with others to get stuff done. Think of the vibrant markets and communities around VRchat or Second Life, and even around something like FFXIV, which I'm sure we can all agree is more of a walled garden than VRchat.
It's one thing that these creators do get compensated a lot of the time, but the community that gathers around these customisation features is the real gain. AI is destructive not just in a market sense, but in a social one. If tech bros get what they want (and this IS what they want), you wouldn't rely on other people for things you need when an AI can do it - and it will be THEIR AI. They want you to rely on them for everything, and to do that they need you to stop relying on others. Tech wants all your attention, all the time, in every space, in every community.
That said, the fact that only you can see what you generate is good. That way at least if you actually want to share something cool, then you have to either make it yourself or engage with people; and I argue that in a supposed MMO, it'd be a bad idea to discourage that.
ok dreamworld has changed... but what about nightmareworld?
word, project seems to have just.. disappeared..
Does this mean that you stopped developing Nightmare world so that it didn't overshadow Dreamworld? Or are you hoping that everyone just forgets that Nightmare World was a thing?!
Judging by him liking every comment besides the ones referring to nightmare world...💀
Maybe because the majority of people bringing it up is out of bad faith. No reason to like those.
@@OrphanHart not bad faith at all. love callums videos
Whatever happened to Nightmare world? Just curious.
Honestly there’s a lot to appreciate here- glad your channel exists! And I’m sure the reason they’re even succeeding right now is because of all the wrathful lessons they got on development.
Artificial intelligence will slowly but surely ruin most things it will come into contact with.
I never thought this name would ever pop up again, especially in a positive light. While it's not my cuppa, I'm glad that it wasn't just a scam in the end and that they just kept working on it.
This is the biggest ad for Dreamworld I have ever seen
Someone who was critical, saying that it's a game now.
I've joined!
This is what happens when you put pride aside, sit, listen to others opinion and handle the information given like a professional. I missed you Callum. I'm always excited when you release a video!
I can't believe that one year later this changed SO much! From a cashgrab shitshow assetflip to something actually playable. Honestly, kudos to them for getting a grip, for doing the right thing and for making something actually enjoyable. I would have NEVER thought they would change from being basically scam artists to an actual game studio. I would really love to hear more about what changed and how they did it, since I feel like this is one of the very very rare success stories.
I absolutely thought it got rugpulled because of the lack of videos in the last year or so, damn surprised to see they've actually done a lot of work to fix it!
Earth 2 and Dreamworld are those two games I ´ve been following frivolously back then. You, Kira, Deepfry (before he got annoying) and some other creators. This really was not on my bingo card, especially with all the controversy about the creators themselves but hey. Maybe not a game for me but it is good to see that they actually are working on this. The refund situation is kinda crazy, idk how are they getting budget but great thing to do.
I'm very happy to hear that Deam World is actually going somewhere.
When I saw @14:20, the picture of the creator he looked more mature. Like he has changed and this is a positive force in his life.
Nice to hear a good turn around on a Kickstarter story where they didn't quit and are actually trying to make the game they promised.
The AI models thing actually sounds really cool, I agree that it probably leans more into the side of being okay. The only issue I see is whether or not the AI has been trained on data the team can legally use. If you could ask a question during the interview about what data that AI system has been trained on, I think that would help clear things up.
As a concept, I *really* like that Dreamforge in a game like this. I love the idea of being able to be like "I want this." but then the game devs are like "but we didn't design that." They can't possibly design everything.
Properly implemented, AI generation in an open world game designed for player freedom and creativity can be amazing.
I really appreciate you making this video and you upholding your integrity and objectivity. It's easy to take that for granted, but it's really not in this world where negativity is rewarded with more views than fair assessments. Beyond that I'm also pleasantly surprised by the development of Dreamworld.
This is one that def seemed like a scam. Good to know for once it was not.
Good on them for continuing to work on it. They could've easily said fuck it like so many other kickstarter projects. I hope they keep it up.
I never thought I would see a video of dreamworld again 😂
For the AI thing, I feel like the way they implemented it was really good and fitting. A rare decent use of Ai imo
This Dreamworld AI maker is basically what I use AI for in my D&D games. Helps me get original character designs and add things to maps that are custom to the campaign. I could spend the time making it myself, but that really does take a lot of prep time and isn't something the player is going to feel as much as thinking of organic storylines and plot hooks.
Wow, kudos to these guys. I could see how they could be so hype and everything if they were going to cut and run but getting the kind of reaction Dreamworld got and then maintaining motivation to actually see it through? I'm honestly very impressed. If nothing else I think Zack has proven himself in terms of his character and resolve, in making such an effort to deliver what he promised. Lets hope it reaches the stages of No-Mans Sky and becomes a beloved and respected game due to the continued commitment of it's developer to make it what was promised.
Holy Shit! I really think credit where it's due, but they seem to be on the right track to actually being a good indie.
Started as over optimistic idiots, got humbled, and learned.
Lets hope this goes upwards and onward.
Lets see whom will release first, Earth 2, DreamWorld or Starcitizen.
Shit, good for them. I was never going to play it, but kuddos to them for not scamming people and actively trying to build a product.
I would rather have an update on Nightmare World. Is it still a thing?
Dream World.. now that is a name I haven't heard for quite a..while. It all felt like a.. Dream
Wow, I'm actually really happy to hear this.
thanks for the update! I'll have to try DreamWorld out now
Fantastic to hear! 😊 Also, your points on the AI generated content is spot on; I'd absolutely love to have access to a tool like that as an end user of a video game - but not at the cost of jobs.
A bit of faith in humanity restored ✅
To be fair i kinda wanna try out that base building... that eiffel tower looked pretty dope!
Bethesda couldnt make an infinite space 😂, yet these guys just *bam* "there it is." 😂.
This is a rare story... I'm glad you talked about this again, because this is nice to see.
I was not expecting to see a positive video about dreamworld of all things.
I'm a bit amazed, good on them.
I cant lie, I respect the fact that they at least tried.
Is nightmare world still a thing or did that get scrapped? If it's still coming can you tell us when an update is happening?
They're working on the NightmareCoin ICO and integrating this must-have innovative crypto token into the game... To the moon! /s
@@igotes Assuming the /s at the end is referring to the "To the moon!" part. Is Callum actually making a crypto for NightmareWorld? That seems counter-productive.
@@RealBurntLettuceit's all sarcasm
@@RealBurntLettuce The whole comment was a joke, I actually have no idea what's going on with the project, sorry!
For playing the game before the entry on steam . What i understand their roadmap for now is building focus and optimisation after that they will look for dungeon , aventure type of thing
This is actually incredible! They’ve been working! Keep it up, gents!
You need to do a lets play of it when it released 😂
You see when you have a impossible task you either have the best of the best to push beyond what is possible or you have someone so naive that they didn’t even know what is possible and literally stumble into it due to sheer luck, carelessness and brute force. Props to them
Who knew this would end in a redemption arc. Wow I'm happy for them. Maybe I'll check it out
I can't believe I'm currently downloading dreamworld to check it out... This is so bizarre, almost like a dream...
Was it fun?
This seems like an actually proper use of AI. Having the assets stay locally for purely user-generated content is the way to go. Nobody is getting paid from user-generated content in the first place and keeping it locked to the user mitigates the social risks of AI content. I don't see how this use case is any more harmful than procedurally generated content in other games.
19:45 if the ai is generating player assest such as models ect, the only "job' it would be stealing would be those of people who wanted to make paid mods selling the same assets. (although if only the player who made them can see them they yeh not really hurting anyone probably)
This is the very best sort of story that I in no way ever expected. How lovely! I really like builders. I mean like really really like. BTW, I requested in for the alpha and "got in" in the next second.
Will Internet Historian make a video of the Engoodening of Dreamworld as a follow up to No Man's Sky?
15:27 - I don't know what kind of implications for the overall game does this AI generated system have, but being able to "dream up" a painting that you can just hang on a wall inside your base looks pretty fucking cool.
im glad that they stuck to things. that makes me happy to see in this world of scams and rug pulls that there are people who are passionate about something that may be in over their head to start but fight through it and make progress. We all start somewhere.
AI used as a tool instead of the product is what it needs to be. This example is kind of straddling the line, more in that it makes a product that can be used as a creative tool that being a tool creating product. The soul of what's being made is still coming from a right place, the players.
Honestly didn't expect this but also I'm all for them carrying on and I hope they can pull it off. It definitely seemed like they really overpromised on the game initially and are receptive to constructive, actual criticism like you have given them Callum.
Honnestly it's cool to have a few stories like this one from time to time. 👍🏻 Kudos to them for being genuine and still working on their game, and kudos to you on how you handeled the situation with stepping back, It's great, and we see your genuine reaction, and it's all great fun.
This is a video I did not see coming, and I really commend you for doing.
I hope the redemption arc continues successfully. It's good to be able to hope for a good ending sometimes
“Man I’m proud of em for trying to make it work, it’s still kind of crappy that they just took all that money without being able to deliver but at least they’re genuine”
“Oh yeah and they offered everyone refunds”
“OH”
I’m really glad dreamworld changed for the better! Question for the interview: Do they think the negative reaction they received initially from the internet was warranted? If they don’t, I’d like to hear why.
Facinating. I first found your channel through Dreamworld, I believe, and I found the whole saga incredible. And as entertaining as it would have been to see it continueously devolve into a hilarious mess, I have to admit this is the better outcome. Hopefully the devs will continue to grow and people will get a game they actually want to play.
I actually wish the dreamworld devs all the best. I wish they would succeed
I’m genuinely so happy for these devs this is a redemption arc and a showcase of incredible dedication to continuing to support this game
Stories like this are more evidence that Earth 2 is not only accidentally incompetent but actively a "scam." DW is building a better game, with less money and experience... but E2 repeatedly chooses not to improve almost anything without a down-payment from their audience.
In regards to AI usage, it is a really tricky area. The sticker for me is still the origin of these models. The training data harvests thousands if not millions of models from online, the copyright of many of which are owned and licensed by many, many artists. The only way for these AI to become as good as they are now is by stealing that content... or... for the company to pay several artists to license their work to train their models off of.
So I guess in addition to usage, it comes down to how the models obtained their training data - legitimately or illegitimately. That's just my two cents.
These developers have proven a philosophy about game development I've had for a long time now. There is *almost* nothing that cannot be fixed when the people making games and those they are making them for work in concert. The amount of testing and feedback that the community has given them, and that has been acted upon by the team, is nothing short of incredible.
It was their openness and receptiveness which sold me on the project early on. Even when the rest of the internet believed it was nothing but a scam, I never regretted backing them on kickstarter at the highest tier(and then some).
This was the ultimate high-risk crowdfunding venture for me. There were good reasons to doubt them, and It's true, the game was pretty atrocious in alpha. We joke about them releasing Dreamworld classic all the time where we're all orbs floating around and everything is jank AF.
Still they seemed committed to doing the best job they possibly could to deliver, and I think that more than anything is why the community supported them as much as we have.
Honestly I'm glad to hear they turned out to be potentially on the up, it's good to hear a story about people who weren't just scammers.