One major thing that needs fixing to me is engine swaps. In many cars, you can swap out the original engine with a new one that's both lighter and more powerful, but for some reason the PI for the new engine is actually lower. Most obvious example to me would be the LS-swapped Skyline GTRs. It's so cursed but they perform so well, so most people who take a GTR to online racing would have LS engines instead of RBs. It's a major issue in FH4 and it still is in FH5, but it doesn't bother me all that much since I rarely play online.
Man online is so hard now without red 😭 ass is trash now so I stick to Forza horizon 3. Soon I'll start playing the new Forza games so I'll just have to adapt soon
Whats more annoying is that when you tune the R34 to around 750 bhp with the RB engine and drag race it, it feels slow as fuck. The Supra as well. There is something fundamentally wrong with the physicis/specs of some cars.
The reason that happens for the most part, is that the swapped engine doesn't match the stock gearing, so when the AI runs the "track", it's much slower than stock. This is especially the case with the LS, since it revs much lower than most engines in the game. If a car is geared for like 170mph at somewhere around 8k rpm, swapping to the LS, which redlines in the 6k range will cap out the top speed much lower. Its definitely not as easy to fix. But one way I could see of fixing it is to make the AI go through and optimize the top speed of the gearing when an engine swap is made. If it did that, I think you'd see a LOT less swaps.
That's because there's other factors than just the power and weight. You also have to consider things like gearing and traction. If you suddenly put a much more powerful engine into a car that wasn't made for it, the tires won't always efficiently put the power down and you may compromise handling too.
I used to play a game that incorporated tuning into PI, and there was another way to get around it. I inverted the gearbox, making 1st into 6th, 2nd into 5th, and so on. This caused the AI to adjust final drive in order to make 1st gear usable. Then when it hit the limit of 1st gear, it would shift up, and up, and up, until it got into the slowest tractor gear imaginable. This caused the AI to run 10 times slower times than the car was capable of, and basically made every race a guaranteed win.
I do that sometimes but I get very confused about what I'm doing it's usually when I got a speed trap to hit so I f*** with the gearing make it go as fast as possible in the quickest time possible but it's always undriveable anything other than that straight line speed not sure I tried it on 5 yet but doing 200 in second gear and 250 by 6 is f****** weird but that's basically the result I end up with can it work better than I've described or is that basically what it is
I still go with realistic tunes, I don't care. It's so much more rewarding when you beat OP cars and so much more fun to race against other realistically tuned cars. As long as the other players race fair and clean, I don't really mind what place I finish in, I just enjoy a good battle, the problem is most of the people who use OP cars don't race clean, they just ram you off the road the first chance they get.
I understand your point, but i think Forza Horizon is meant to be arcady, you can't have a real tune and jump the danger signs from mountains, you have other sim games that fits real tuning.
yeah same even tho it is for just a almost last place. i see it so often that rammers are almost last places. what the point if u cant even hold up your 7th position without ramming. idk about winning, like u i prefer clean, intense and close racing but rammers destroy that
As a newer player, the number under the class icon (I am assuming that's what we are taking about) being affected by tuning would definitely help me figure out what helps and what doesn't. The newbie's assumption of "it's a bigger number so it must be good" plagues me so much to the point where I would lower the aero until the 0-60 time got longer because "Unga bunga speed go up," and then wonder why I can't turn well at high speeds. Tuning is a lot for someone who's new to sim racing, and even a little hint (besides a wall of text) of whether or not the tune is making the car better or worse would be a massive help. Yes I can do a test-drive, but I don't exactly know what to look for or what exactly I did wrong. Your tuning tutorial certainly helps, but there's only so much a pre-recorded video can do in terms or real-time advice.
man i feel you it doesn't matter how many videos i watch or how many walls of text i read i only learned by trial and error and there's a lot that i still don't know
It also sucks that you can't easily scroll through those walls of text to understand what they're saying. Some are very important, such as the differential ones explaining how the locking affects cars of different drivetrains, but others like dampers and springs do nothing.
One thing that keeps coming to my mind when I think about how these tunes would look in real life is: if you did any of these things, you would destroy your tires in 1 lap or less. What if they did a "hardcore open racing" section with some tweaks closer to Forza Motorsport and also allowed tires to take the "realistic tire damage and wear" more... Realistically? It would give an entire segment of people who want greater diversity in tunes and more realism a place to stretch their (Forza) wings.
There was a game I used to play as a kid. Can't remember the name of it right now, that changed some values in the physics model based on mode. There was an arcade mode which was just whip things into corners and have fun, and a realistic mode where suddenly everything got really really hard. It wasn't perfect, but taking the training wheels off and going into realistic mode was absolutely punishing. How to drive changed completely, and it was just juggling a few key variables in code. Forza could probably do it with little effort, and that one switch would double the game content. Everything the way it is now, plus everything again with the variable changes.
This was an excellent idea for a video, and one of the most useful for me. I tune all my own cars, and I have watched a number of RUclips videos to learn more about it. I use HokiHoshi and ConnerSpeed6 the most. These leave me with a car that performs very well on technical tracks, such as Cathedral, where most often the only players using meta-tuning that can touch me are those that know how to ride the walls. However, my cars are not particularly competitive on tarmac or dirt sprints with high-speed, wide turns, where meta-tuning really comes into play. Unfortunately I race against meta-tuned cars that leave me in the dust because they are tuned almost completely for speed and not handling, which means they don’t have to make the compromises that I do. To try and equalize my performance, I've also tried to use SP4’s meta-tuning guide, which has completely different ideal settings, making compromising the two approaches very difficult. I’m not a fan of meta tuning for a few reasons. 1) I want to be able to tune my cars using my knowledge of real physics and not the game meta. ConnerSpeed6 goes into extreme detail about such things as cambered tires keeping their contact patch on the surface during the stresses of turning. I love learning all that. but I’m not sure how much it applies to the game. 2) Meta-tuning also means meta-driving, exploiting the game physics to gain speed, which involves techniques such as bouncing off walls. I only consider my own driving good if I never touch a wall, which unfortunately means I am less competitive.
Yep, same feeling, i usualy set my cars for grip/lightweight, while it's really obvious that most of tracks are more adapted to fast tanks, and since there is zero "rules", you can't beat a heavy/powerfull car with a light/slow one. They push you aside like a feather, block the way or ruin your trajectory in curves, and then goes away 2x faster than you.... About pure META, the issue is not really the lack of logic, but more like... people often take THE car that rules a category, and you can't catch up. If everybody use META cars, there is no point in using others 600 cars :v
I use SP4's guide for all my custom tunes and it works far better for me than the HokiHoshi's one. I really recommend it to anyone playing on Xbox or PS controller. I almost always finish on top 2 with no engine swaps and using a personal tune, only losing 20% of the time for OP meta cars/tuning with swaps and played by good drivers.
I actually think it's cool that such funny cars can be so fast in this game, but when someone can just sit in one car that's clearly broken, use minimal skill to fly around tracks online, and ram people off the road to get to the top of leader boards it's just stupid at that point. Then when they try another vehicle on another road they get mad and just leave the lobby. This is one of the most noob-friendly racing games I've ever seen. But thanks for another vid bro I've been subbed for years.
I like to drive cars in their stock form to see what they really feel like. The stats don’t always give you the full picture. Handling stat isn’t always the most accurate IMO. There are so many random builds that are possible and competitive that come from this and you become a better tuner/driver in the process. My favorites right now are the F1, Sagaris, any 911, and S7.
I can confirm on the handlin isn't accurate aspect. I do a huge amount of rwd builds, muscle car builds, and offroad builds which tend to have low handlin and yet super fast high end supercars have significantly worse handlin than any of my usual builds. I even have this rwd Dart that smokes my friends who use "only the best of the best" cause they only believe that stat and don't test their cars before claimin it's the best of the best. Its all bout the driver, not what the game says is good
None of the stats are truly accurate, I've noticed that for many years across horizon and motorsport. They are simply accurate for that individual car in most cases. I know plenty of cars I have used across both games that have some lower stats than other cars of mine, the 1-10 stats, but they'll be able to outperform other cars with higher stats in either handling, braking, acceleration, top speed, etc. It's been an issue ever since I can remember paying attention to it which was forza motorsport 4.
I think a lot of the more OP powerbuilds would go away overnight if (rear) aero actually cost P.I rather than reduced it, It makes no sense to me that adding a rear spoiler takes a chunk out of the P.I. Yes, it reduces your top speed and adds drag but that's not much of a problem when its already ludicrously high. An AWD car that does 235mph in A class comfortably but has crap tyres benefits hugely from aero and would be terrible without it, so why am I being given MORE budget for improving the car? Silly meta builds will always exist but circumventing tyres made out of cheese with aero is a massive oversight in my mind. You wouldn't let a GTR in the same race as a bunch of Miatas on the basis it has a big wing adding drag. AWD and engine swaps can be countered most of the time by just driving decent, although it would be nice if stock engines were buffed a bit so that engine swaps were made as a powerband/torque behaviour choice rather than simply because its PI efficient. I think the biggest culprit of all is the tracks, realistically 99% favour power, if you're competent you probably destroy most of the playing field when cathedral circuit comes up because people simply aren't used to tracks like that. If Road racing was all technical circuits and street racing was entirely sprints, that might split tuning builds into their respective homes, there's very little reason to opt for handling unless you find yourself in a setlist with 2 circuit races.
The aero does nothing for power builds boss. We only throw the rear wing on to knock our PI down to upgrade the car elsewhere. We then reduce its downforce production to a minimum in the tuning menu to prevent mid corner understeer.
My fav car is McLaren F1 GT with stock tyres, sport gears for -10 PI and rear wing. Not sure why a rocket is allowed on track races but is quite inefficient with its RWD on small corners at most street races. I love the start when everyone flies away from me, then some end up in bushes at t1.
I don't know about horizon, but in motorsport the top cars from all classes have been the same mostly for the last 3 titles. I know they are two different games, but got the same system in place. The Honda S2K for example is one the best cars for c and b class in motorsport 5 6 and 7, with just a few other cars also being best for certain tracks in those classes. Not much diversity. I'm hoping they are taking forever for motorsport because of that and ranked races. If so, fh6 might have more hope. Lots of hoping and ifs though haha.
I'd say biggest thing tuning system needs here is ECU tuning to help dial in that rogue 1-5 PI without making you scrap an entire part and then be unable to fill the gap.
Really, forza ENGINE tuning is really bad. Every part is just street sport or race, there's no brands, no actual tuning of the engine and absolutely unrealistic mods
You’re driving is so smooth man. Sometimes I’ll rewatch your vids over and over to watch how you take certain corners and seeing how I can improve my own driving based on it.
I wouldn’t use Hoki as an example. He is decent, but definitely no where near the best player. I’d recommend SP4 on RUclips if you wanna see some proper top 1% drives. He actually a good player.
Honestly, I want to see tuning being accounted for in PI at the very least be tested. That way, if it turns out to be bad, they can just roll back the changes (assuming it doesn't become a mess of code). Actually, that testing could be done through the Insider Hub! Anyone remember that?
It's been like this for ages in the forza serie unfortunately. I remember playing FM3 and FM4 back then on the 360, and the AWD swap meta was already there , or the drag tire was often used to bring down the car in class.
The game’s PI should be more based towards a higher top speed, so that cars such as the boneshaker will perform less well Also the point about limiting factors where you said it would be bad to limit tire width but not horsepower kind of is exactly the case in Forza. The tires provide so much of a class increase when doing a powerbuild that sometimes you have to limit it for the most potential Also it is totally possible for Forza to nerf certain cars. Back in Forza Motorsport 4 there used to be a car so unbelievably overpowered that it claimed every single spot on a top 10 the night it was discovered. That car was a 450HP D class Chevrolet Camaro. And a week later, Forza nerfed that tune all the way up to A Class Great video overall👍
I gave up on real-world tuning logic when I was absolutely spanked by a 1940s Willys blowing past me at about 140mph while I was in a modern day Jeep Rubicon upgraded like mad. I was like, "What the actual fuck?" So much for being a sim.
There's sometimes such a fine line between a meta build and just a really good tune, how could it possibly be enforced or regulated (if PGG ever felt the need) When it becomes stupid (the recent Raesr drift gearbox fiasco) that's when it needs to be looked at. I play a lot of Open Drift, and the sheer number of times that myself and everybody else is 200k points behind a Willy's Jeep or BMW Isetta is ridiculous!!
Honestly I think the system is good, I just wish the values for speed, Gs and etc that are shown in the tuning window Were more reflective. One thing that's tough even with RUclips is remembering what tuning you need to do for turn in response vs in corner grip (which I applaud you for that video you have)
it really doesnt they are just lazy its the same thing with every game company balance is hard to achieve if you want it theres plenty of solutions and no excuses if they dont ruin the game why they arnt added
@@thebowtieguy777 they may not have that functionality in the system. a more viable adjustment for the raeser issue would be adding a raeser (and i-pace i guess, but i don't think the i-pace was broken and it could just be unbanned) specific version of the drift transmission with reasonable gearing so it would be handled appropriately in the pi system
Agreed, more classes would definitely increase build variety. I have a few cars setup for S1 850 that wouldn't be able to reach S1 900 without an engine swap. Renaming S2 to S3 and moving S2 to 850 PI would prevent this. I'd really like to see an A1 and A2 with 750 PI and 800 PI limits respectively, especially considering A class is much faster now than it was in FH4. Some cars are doomed to fail because they're always overpowered or underpowered at multiples of 100 PI. As for tuning influencing PI, I'm not a fan. I'd rather they simulate the time with the applied tune, but it would have to make a minimal difference on PI or I'd be constantly going back and forth trying to squeeze out the last PI. The meta cars would switch from cars that provide an advantage when driven by a human, to cars that have an advantage when driven by AI. I tune my cars relatively realistically, something I picked up from Assetto Corsa, yet I have no problem beating meta cars as long as the track is suitable for my car. The problem comes when dirt racing or straightline speed is involved. You get cars with ridiculous power and barely any grip that should burn through tires in seconds winning endurance style races, and anything with mixed surfaces or off road is a nightmare as you said.
The part in your comment about the offroad stuff, they tried that in FH4, but supercars and track toys ended up being faster anyway, it just made everything annoying as f**k to drive and so much as clipping the grass, weather it be a small driving error, or being pushed off, was almost alway a guarantee that you’d crash and lose the race, even after gaining a 10 second lead. Then added wall collision penalties made things infinitely worse, as you could get pushed into a tree for build and have your engine’s power cut for an additional 5-15 seconds before setting off again. I swear, it’s always hardcore sim racers advocating for more realism in games they either don’t play, hardly ever play, or stop playing after getting what they want that want this type of sh*t. Not trying to target anybody, but this is the kind of behavior that damn near killed the arcade racing franchise.
@@vaulthunterfromterra4053 I have to disagree on the idea that FH4 grass was too slippy. I have literally never had an issue with it. maybe its a problem in S2 and X class ranked racing or some shit but it was too lenient at the very least in even A class. as for "hardcore sim" stuff ruining the "arcade racing franchise", I ask this: Why have a "simulation" setting in the handling settings if its not the most realistic behavior you can make it? feel free to have it set to a more arcade like option, but when I say I want simulation in the settings, I want the best you can offer. if you dont want to slide on grass, im fine if the more arcade like settings let you drive like that. "but then everyone would just race on the softer settings to gain an advantage in online game modes", then let players matchmake within their preferred settings. that easy man. they had the more realistic stuff in motorsport, why even touch it in the "simulation" setting on horizon? soften it up for the other options, and leave it alone for sim.
12:49 I like this idea, and what makes it better is, Turn 10 has already done this with Motorsport. If you’ve ever played it, AWD and FWD have problems with understeer, and the only way to fix it is with tuning. Bc of that RWD cars are put on a relatively level playing field. Unfortunately, speed and power is still OP in the Motorsport’s series, but you really have to put in more effort when it comes to the tuning
Tuning being part of PI is absolutely a good idea. I believe it would balance car choices and builds much more satisfactorily and tuning would go from being absolutely crucial to even compete to a beneficial factor to tweak around driver's preference and track diversity
Imagine if changing the clutch actually changed how much power you could reasonably get to the wheels, like in real cars, instead of just being a shift time metric.
the biggest factor why meta cars and tunes work in the game is that you don't have damage to consider. most if not all meta driving styles and tunes would blow your tires within a few minutes and your transmission and motor would say good by really fast. there is a reason why there is no drifting in real races except in rally on gravel, dirt or snow roads. locking up your tire for 30+ meters means that you have a flat spot on your tires that massivly reduce your handling and performance and we are locking up our tires at 200+km/h for seconds before going into the slide around the corner. the tires performance would be gone in rl by that time. the next thing is that the motor would overhead in rl because we almost always are in the close to red area of the rmp meter and no motor is holding that for so long. even f1 cars are only for a short period of time over 60% of the meter because the cooling can't handle more and it would overheat. it is one of the most unrealistic things in the game and how automatic transmission work. nobody in RL get's even close to the 60% mark when swtiching from the 1 to 2 gear but forza goes over the red region before switching. automatic transmission are way more complicated in itself and to tune than it is done in the game and many meta builds profit from that, especially if they use the automatic transmission in manual, something that doesn't work in RL because it is build completly differently.
I personally enjoy being able to tune my cars without needing to worry about PI. I feel that if tuning WAS taken into account, it would probably shift the importance of tuning more towards tweaking it for your personal driving style, which is fine, but it would also increase the burden of knowledge and just the effort it takes to get a well-balanced car in general. H5 is my first serious racing game and the tuning system already looked super intimidating when I started out but at least I had guides to tell me what works and what doesn't, should that be taken away because it's all in my personal driving style and I have no easy well to tell how much of a balance I need to take between comfort and PI cost? One way they could maybe tackle this without changing it is just improving the base tune, or even making it scale with the build you have so the AI is using a tune that more realistically approximates the one you will use in practice. The whole recent debacle with the A-class Raesr came down to the tune limiting it to sub-30mph - if it realised that it was on a hypercar that can do 200+ easily and lengthened the final drive appropriately before player tuning then it would have been a non-issue. I think the physics tweak to nerf grip during moments of hard braking and turning could also be a cool change, and would slot into the existing difficulty settings really well with the TCS option to make it more of an optional choice like ABS currently is - you sacrifice speed around corners for stability.
TCS is as optional as ABS. While the leaderboard cars tend to be some ridiculous power builds you can get away with balanced RWD cars online. Go for a higher tire class, lower the pressure to around 1.5 bar for everything besides slicks and throttle control isn’t more difficult than braking without ABS.
@@elhomoflow ... what does RWD have to do with this? TCS is not viable and definitely not as viable as ABS for racing, you lose so much time on high speed corners it cancels out whatever advantage you get from faster corner exits. I play with a controller that doesn't have analogue triggers and ABS is almost mandatory while TCS is easy to play without. Throttle control is much easier than brake control even with analogue input because you can also control revs with feathering and shifting up/down. You have nothing like that with braking, and if you lose grip braking you fly off the track.
>it would also increase the burden of knowledge and just the effort it takes to get a well-balanced car in general Sounds good to me. On one hand it encourages experimentation and possibly gave the player an opportunity to understand how things actually works (just like in real life and any other games), on the other hand the burden of knowledge is practically the same for someone who knew nothing about the game and cars because "meta tunes" in of itself is a knowledge they wouldn't know. Plus if it does leads to more tune variety then there's really no contest here.
@@shira_yone Increasing burden of knowledge is bad as it makes the topic less approachable, and that goes doubly so with tuning because now you've put a PI price tag on your comfort alongside the PI cost of the upgrade system so you can't even tweak your tune now without potentially having to retune elsewhere, rebuild your car or straight up make it less fun to drive. If anything it makes meta tunes even more common, not less common, because it makes tuning so much more complicated that less people are going to be interested in working it out for themselves. It does improve the balance of cars with bad stock setups that cheat the PI system (like the Daytona in FH4), as intended, but you could also do that by just improving those stock tunes while keeping everything else mostly the same.
You are way more advanced in this than I ever will be and i have been playing since motorsport 3. My issue is that I do the 4 wheel drive conversion specifically because I find the car undrivable otherwise. The side effects are that I end up just plowing through corners and most egregious it drops the top speed by a ton. If memory serves, on one occasion it went from 230 to like 180 or something similar.
Have you ever thought of creating your own system for determining PI? Without modding, you might need a way to manually review builds making PI review longer. But this allows to create new types of player driven events that can create new metas and builds. This could be done with any game as well if you know how to make manual review PI systems.
My friend always drives RWD cars and never AWD. He says that RWD is overall better because it gives you higher top speed and better handling. Is RWD actually better than AWD?
It used to be the case that AWD was really powerful, but H5's changes to suspension/grip etc have made RWD really competitive. Nowadays it kinda just comes down to the car, class and actual track being raced on. (Which is how it works in real life!)
I only play FH casually and my consideration of upgrades usually stops at "does it sound cool and still steer", it's interesting to see how the system works for higher skill level players, great video!
I, for one, could not care less about any "Meta". I play my way, and that's what i like. In the end, i play to have fun... it's not life and death. And the biggest difference of a game and real life... in games you have hundreds of chances... in real life you only have one, then its out.
Wow, such a good video. I play a lot of Touge lobbies & only drive cars I actually want which sometimes results in "underpowered and slow" cars. I was always baffled at how some would tell other players how to tune their cars without knowing anything about driveline types, but now it makes sense. I typically use real world tuning experience and plug it in game in order to achieve my success and it's always an uphill battle against meta tuning. I try to explain to people Forza can be a baseline to achieve better IRL experience, most don't listen but man, it's so rewarding whenever someone notices driver skill still can play a major part in every aspect of this game.
The big issue for me is the wildly disparate PI cost for tyres. Rally tyres don't cost much, but give so much grip in A class that you don't need semi-slicks even on a circuit focused build. That means you dump the rest of the PI into power and beat everyone. How it should work is that different classes have different tyre restrictions, so rally tyres can't be used in A class circuit racing, drag tyres can't be used in B class rally etc. If you are required to add a certain tyre to your build to compete in an A class event, you are forced to make a "proper" tune instead of an overpowered meta tune.
I think making tuning affect the rating is a good idea, especially since certain cars can go from top of one class performance, to near top of the next class in performance just with a good tune. For those, the value of tuning is that one can turn a car that can't quite reach the top of their class into a car that can, just by tuning. However if there is a big desire to make tuning matter as well, then simply making it so that tunes always go a bit more than their rating, not enough for it to make as much of a difference as it does now, but enough that when pros try to fight for the best times, it matters.
First of all, I loved this video! Much time and dedication went into this and it shows. Clear, convoluted information that is easy to follow and understand!!! That being said however, I really don't think any of this needs altering. While I agree with all the points u stated about possible and potential changes and their impacts, I feel like, it, just isn't needed. 🤷♂️ Ngl, I play for horizon for these types of physics; being able to switch a car to AWD, slap a naughty bodykit, spoiler, the whole 9 yards and go throw it through corners at speeds I really shouldn't be able to! 🤣 If I wanted something more realistic, handling wise, I'd go play the likes of something like GT7, asseto corsa, Iracing and NFS(Just kidding! 🤣). I feel like even if u were alter it slightly, they'd be crossing over into these games territories and it's just needless competition for both parties involved! Forza Motorsport and more importantly, in this case, horizon, has its place and its quite a perfect one! 👌 Again, fantastic video!! 👏👏😍
Perhaps some form of "success ballast" system could be added that either on a game wide or individual players that do things like add a few extra PI to "meta" cars and builds, like how some touring car or GT car racing series make the previous race winner add a series of weights to the car. Each time someone else wins the ballast is removed and given to them, this would be tricky to get right but it would stop the same meta car being use over and over again and force some variety. After using another car or changing the build for a time the extra "success PI" is removed, if it was game wide for a specific car or setup like Boneshakers they would be temporally nerfed for a time. This is one way real racing has dealt with "Meta" cars, in the series it was well implemented it did add some variety in the fights for the podium.
Yo nice video like every time Hoki. The part about the tune and physics is toobased, most of the ppl ignores the fact that Horizon is the son of Motorsport and there's some inheritance for example in the physics, which as u said, are tweaked to make the game easier to be catchy compared to more simulating focused games. You can even swap between less and more realistic driving style in FH, which doesn't make a crazy difference, it doesn't change the engine, only how "demanding" is the game, which, as said, doesn't change a lot. The thing about building a name ingame by tuning is absolutly true too, in fh4 I've tuned a lot, like 100+ uploads but didn't had much impact cuz the game was already kinda dead when I got into it. When FH5 arrive I spended, like, the first 2 months or something like that doing drift tunes so, by now I've 100k downloads and It feels amazing when someone writes U about he's enjoying one of your tunes, not cuz ego, cuz he's enjoying my work as I for example enjoy the work of the ppl that does designs or custom eventlab maps, we're a community and the thing that makes this game big is that, our work, is the same that happens with Asseto Corsa, at this point Event Lab has infinite content that U can enjoy, and again, that's because of us. Btw, I'm looking for people to work with, Im open to any project, my gametag is Senkitox. PeepoPeaceOut
Actually not much different than sims such as Iracing or Rfactor 2. There are known exploits in those titles that make you faster and have absolutely no chance of working in real life. But, they work in the sim. So even "hardcore sims" have items that can be manipulated. At the end of the day, any racing title is just a bunch of numbers and those numbers can be manipulated if you spend the time to figure those manipulations out.
A few things would go a long way to balance the game substantially: 1) The only part of tuning that should be considered in PI is gearing, that way you can't stuff a short transmission in a fast car and tune the lack of top speed out. Or just have the game auto tune adjustable transmissions to meet the aerodynamic top speed of the car. Either way works. 2) Have different "test tracks" for road, rally, and off-road races, and separate PI accordingly. Before building a car, the game can just ask what you plan on using it for and scale PI accordingly. 3) Restrict tire type per PI class. Since a lot of power builds take advantage of the garbage "stock" tires on old cars, you could phase this out by requiring a certain type of tire for a certain PI. For example for road races, B class requires street, A requires sport, S1 requires race, etc. 4) Set the default AWD diff tuning to be more rear biased (30-70 or so) so the bots testing the car don't experience as much understeer. Putting all of these things together would make the game substantially better. It'd make racing more balanced, help new people build more balanced cars, and give the meta more variety. And none of these efforts would be difficult to code into the game, either. Make it happen, Forza!
I agree with everything you said except 3. Tire limitations would severely limit what you can build in those classes and limit creativity in extension. Also, picking a race category that the PI would base on would work great in a sim racer, but not Forza. It’s because people who, oh I don’t know… don’t want to race, would have to pick a PI type for something that may not be what they’re building for. Ex: I want to build a tag car that needs high suspension for the bumps and jumps and also needs snappy handling to juke a chasing player: what would I pick for PI? Especially if it’s in the open world, I could build a rally car, chose drag racing as a PI system, and run around free roam playing tag in a car that says it’s A 786 when it performs like a S1 897. See the problem there? Also: the thing you said that gears should be the only thing that accounts in PI actually makes sense, but I personally don’t like that because it,again, limits what a player can do and that’s no fun on a game like horizon. I consider myself a professional tuner and I don’t think that tuning should be accounted for in PI at all. The only thing I think would be a great fix for the system would just be to make the base tunes handle better in AWD (and maybe a bit in FWD). This solution would raise PI on AWD cars, and still not affect what tuning can still be done to it to improve it, and it also would create no need to limit certain upgrades to certain classes. It would be a fairly easy thing to implement too. It’d be like what you said about making AWD more rear bias stock. Except that would be the only thing that I’d do. Sorry to go on so long about this. It’s just that this is my bread and butter in the game that I played 95% of my gaming career, and if it were to change so drastically by taking the advantage out of the one thing that took me so long to master, I don’t know how I’d handle it. It would definitely ruin the game for me and ALL of my friends. Most everyone I have met in game, either just starting or veterans or just play for fun people, they ALL have tuned their cars for something (90% of the people I meet tune at least a bit and try at least a bit to learn how to tune better). That simple change of putting tuning in as part of the PI would I think destroy the fanbase and put a LOT people off playing. Forza is a game that has one of the most loyal fanbases, this would probably play a massive part in killing the game. Sorry for the rant, this is not all directed at your comment, but it just all came out. Have a good day! And happy tuning!
I dunno if it would help or hinder it but perhaps having the "AI test track" be tailored to the type of tires you pick rather than the game explicitly asking you what you intend the car to do. I notice more and more in a lot of high performing tunes that cars are put on off-road or rally tires even when they are in fact designed as high grip street builds. So that may also help counter some of the meta trickery like putting offroad tires on an Enzo to make it an op S1 car. Of course it could also totally do the opposite and make the trend even more extreme.
@@SarcasticTentacle it’s an untested idea. But I think the developers know that any change to the system needs some serious consideration and a lot of work to make sure it’s well balanced and not limiting. I think that the modern system works well enough not to change, I’d rather them just make changes to individual cars, or focus their attention on something else in the game that needs more immediate attention. The PI system is a thing that works great for what it needs to do, changing it would be hard and tedious, and there are other much more pressing issues they should attend to well before even thinking about the PI system.
I feel largely the same, but it is interesting to consider how to "solve" the meta question. Until this video I didn't even know how Forza calculated PI.
@@SarcasticTentacle it is good to be curious about it, I wasn’t entirely aware either of how it worked. But I don’t think it needs solving, that’s my opinion though, you’re full welcome to have your own opinion. But I stand firm on this for myself because it affects me so greatly
Thanks for the explanation of what's going on behind the scenes in Forza with the simulation and how it affects the PI system and tunes. The changes I would like to see are to have PI updated after tuning instead of calculated before, to have the AI driving model improved to generate a more realistic PI (big ask), to do away with the unrealistic grip simulation on the front wheels and instead update the driving assists to help with this, and finally to revamp the races to make it easier to restrict (or require) upgrades and ban things like AWD and engine swaps, or force cars to use rollcages to be more realistic for players who want that experience.
Great points and I agree with all of them. About the turning at high speeds though... I also noticed the exceptional turning ability at high speeds, but I also know that I don't drive a $million-dollar car with sticky tires, 4000-8000lbs of down force at those speeds and endless attempts at getting it right or better over and over again without dying in real life. So, who really knows but it so is fun.
Honestly for me, the one thing I really wish they'd change is RWD power builds, and that was as someone who loves RWD cars. A very tiny fraction of the community can use them, forget about it if you are on a wheel, which goes against the concept of accessibility. Also, even many who are good with them admit they aren't fun to drive. They also break the leaderboards, as they are magnitudes faster than anything else on the roads. But seriously, even the most difficult to drive race cars in realistic sims are easy to drive in comparison. When I quit playing a few months ago (lost interest since it was either easy wins in pvp or guarunteed losses against powerbuilds), there were some great RWD cars that weren't powerbuilds, and I imagine we would have seen more them and a narrowing of the gap from the elite to the very, very good by a massive margin.
I guess the fundamental question is this: how accessible do you want the game to be? In my opinion, I think there's value in having a challenging to use but rewarding car type in the game. That's the rwd powerbuild. Most other games such as combat games like smash all have a character that only an experienced player can make the most out of and that allows them to have an edge over the rest. The rwd powerbuild fulfills that same category in fh5. These builds push players to get better at driving rather than being competitive out of the box with the awd meta. If fh5 is too accessible, there is no reward/progression skill wise to the game. This is why I think the removal of ranked racing was detrimental, I barely play online anymore.
This not a natural progression of difficulty that allows skill players to gain an edge. It's an absolute cliff from every type of car being easy and fun to drive to a sudden spike in difficulty to ridiculously high levels (only a tiny fraction of people can drive or race them effectively, and only with a controller) that isn't particularly fun. And advantage isn't slim or even large, it's massive. I raced competitively in sims, and even the hardest to drive cars were no where near as difficult and felt rewarding to master. Many times they didn't even give an advantage, or it was small. RWD power builds in FH5 are not that. The Boneshaker is OP for a non RWD powercar, but at least it's fun to drive and the advantage isn't 3-5 seconds a lap, but a much smaller amount.
i like how he added the part about difficult race cars being easy, i play alot of assetto corsa on wheel and drove cars like the gt40 and some of the old 40s race cars and they are incredibly difficult to drive since all the raw power is put down on tires that cant even handle half of it, then i go on forza and yeah they seem kinda slippery but it is nowhere as crazy as a normal sim and completely takes away from the fun of driving them, and also makes them faster than they would be irl
same with mid engine cars that dont have alot of rear downforce, in sim's once they hit their limit, that back end is immedietly coming around and you have to be ontop of it at all times, but on forza that is almost entirely nonexistent except for low speeds or really high hp cars
@@GraceTheTDI I was speaking of relative difficulty. Part of that may be using a wheel on FH5, but I went through pretty much every car on AMS2, and nothing came close to the difficulty of driving a power RWD car on FH5. And the difficult ones where fun and interesting, whereas FH5 power RWD cars where nothing of the sort.
3:18 In basically any racing series, tire width, weight, suspension type, aerodynamics and so on are restricted, as well as engine. It's just that high horespower isn't so op on real race tracks as it is in Horizon.
You also forgot something simple for the sim drivers like me in fh5...money shifting exploits, knowing that your engine naturally would go cachowboom, but nothing bad really happens if you purposely money shift to force the car into a corner
Please God let your next video be how to meta tune! I love your videos, you are the best Forza RUclipsr. And I love your tuning guides. Keep it coming!
An amazing display of insight this video is. I think we could decrease this variety issue by adding drivetrain restrictions for each class without touching existing systems as they are already much better than in FH4. For example having D to S1 AWD, FWD, and RWD separated. (Maybe S1 FWD is not very achievable and S2 probably should be anything goes). The downside is you would have to have 2 to 3 times more cars ready but is this reaaaally an issue when there are hundreds of cars to choose from and lots of amazing tuners out there. Each drivetrain and class will develop its own meta but already there would be three metas in each class. Furthermore, drivetrains would not be competing with each other so there would be more freedom in building and tuning inside the restrictions. Another thing to consider would be road design. We do not have many low-speed tracks even though there are lots of square kilometres on the map. We could have narrower and twistier roads in some areas and still keep those high-speed roads.
A simple fix is to change the approach to restrictions for entry to events. In place of the current system where events specify a certain Class (D-X) to enter an event, exchange that for a simple "maximum power, minimum weight, set drivetrain (FWD/RWD/AWD/Open)" entry restriction to events. The PI system then becomes more a side tool that gives you a rough estimate of how performant your vehicle is but your competitiveness no longer hinges on having to bring your top of class car to every race or finding ways to glitch the upgrade system for a meta car. As an added touch, make some of the default events stipulate stock vehicles only (although i guess that hinges on the AI being fixed so they dont launch RWD like its AWD and actually get out of shape once in a while...)
I did notice there are some broken upgrades in Forza that doesn't make sense in the game. In Forza Motorsport 7, I built a car that despite its Pi rating, kept being able to compete in a class above what it was built for, when we tested it head to head it could even compete on straight line speed which was the biggest shocker.
Whenever I've done transmission tuning, I tend to go for real world gear ratios and what one could get for differential gear ratios off the shelf. If I need top speed, I try to get a 2.73 differential gear set with a 0.50:1 overdrive in the transmission.
One thing that comes to my mind with engine swaps at least is adding in forged engine options like NFS Heat did so people can still be competitive and it's there for those people (like me) who don't necessarily want to swap out the stock engine. I hope that makes sense. I don't always wanna swap in a V12 or LS motor just to be competitive. What if I want the stock engine but it takes more power? Idk just thinking out loud
@@Benjamin-tr4jr I loved that Heat did that because I build cars based on how I would build them in real life and most of my builds would use the original engine or a forged option
I would be happy if there was not a random paragraph scrolling on the right side of the screen as you are working on a tune. I am trying to learn how to tune and it is not always clear what the change I just made just did to the car. If in the tuning screens it showed for instance "Over steer" and "Under steer" and show what your changes are as you make them. I have watched many videos and I see a lot in the videos explain, "if your car does this, these are the 5 settings you can change to help fix that." I never know which of the 5 I should start with to fix my issue. I think the upgrading parts system is ok, but it also could have similar features like tuning, make clearer what the new part is going to do. I understand that by making the changes I am mentioning begins to decrease the advantages to someone who has put in the hours of time to learn about the process and as a result create tuning that they can share and profit from. Thanks for the videos, watch them often, many repeatedly as I learn.
The thing is because it's a game the titanic paragraph scrolling on screen doesn't even represent accurately what the results would be if you tuned how it's describing. In some instances it's actually just flat wrong like brake bias for instance which is reversed and has been for over a decade with no change for some reason lol Just simple things like how videos break them down would be great. I.E. move this stiffer for oversteer or decrease deceleration for understeer etc etc. Sometimes less is more. And for the love of fucking god Forza QUIT FUCKING LOCKING DOWNLOADED TUNES! I don't want an incredible ARB setting someone has and gear ratios that someone put hours into to be ruined by them having their damn brake pressure put to 200 when I drive with ABS and they don't. It's so frustrating lol If I can download a tune and change it in PROPER Sims there is no reason to be locking this shit in Forza of all things lol
I personally just get bored of how unusable most of the engines are... You wanna play 3000GT, NSX, S2000, R32 on the street? AWD V8. There is no point in using NSX V6 or F20 from S2000 because you can just throw in LS / 3.2 from BMW and not care about the weight distribution in the slightest. Not even talking about the fact how underpowered most engines are compared to V8 etc...
yeah its insane how slow japanese cars are espacially stock in forza games. they handle fine but they got like no power if you tune them for b and a class if you use the stock enigines. and it has been like that for a lot of forza games now. Fords, Ferraris and chevys always seem to be really good in forza. Its the same with nissans and hondas in the GT games, or atleast the older ones. They are ususally so much better then anything else. its either the bias of the developers and i've been starrting to believe that they actually get payed or get the licences really cheap if they make certain brands faster in the game.
I think the ultimate problem is one faced in many games, there is only one fastest combination of choices. So you are faced with having variety in the outcomes forcing one single choice or allowing a variety of choices which ultimately leads to equal performance among cars. This does not factor in the human element of different driving strengths and weaknesses of course. However, that is not enough to overcome the ultimate problem of there being one single set of choices that is the best. That is a natural consequence of having impactful, meaningful choices.
There are 2 ways to enjoy online racing in FH5, getting an op or tuned car for an easy win, or picking the car that you enjoy and use it with the combination of your skills to win.
hmmm so that was the trick! i've been tuning awd cars with the purpose of making them decent off roading and not too understeery on roads, now i see what i gotta do
In my opinion, a really great way to understand what cars work for what and upgrades/tuning is using lower class cars C/B/A because their slow enough that you won’t exceed skill if you’re new to the car. Most of the time tuning can be almost always noticeable and easier to learn what does what
Spot on as far as I'm concerned. So many racing games out there that boast how many cars they have included but if over half of them are basically useless it's pretty much a slap in the face to some of the games most dedicated fans. This is even more devastating to fans of certain car manufacturers or specific car classes if they find that their favorites just can't compete. For instance I'm a huge fan of classic muscle cars and though to me they are such fun to drive I feel like the vast majority of the community is going to struggle getting them to keep up with modern sports cars. I feel like a few tweaks to how the cars are grouped in lobbies could make the game more accessible to a wider variety of the games fans. Like instead of only using the PI class, what if we had lobbies for things like RWD only or cars from a certain era etc. etc. ???
one way i see fix the all thing would be to add a stats check to the rating system on top of the ai test, for each class set a power and P/W ration min max limit and a lateral G min max limit, then set a average stat and some rules like more power = less lateral g and the other way around or more weigh = more power and the other way around etc the tweak of the front tyres grip for AWD u proposed is a good idea too but on a personnal note after 15y of forza having the same probleme im tired of tuning and building cars, because for me the most important is good racing balanced racing with every car and i only got this with by hand BoP, and if i have to give up on building for that i would do it, and the variety of driving style would come from the cars not the tuning, the thing is tuning and building in forza has lead to less variety overall because if u want to build a competitve cars they will all handle about the same and even sound the same because of OP engine swaps i dont really understand why u say adding tuning to the pi calculation would make tuning less important, most people would still downloaded tunes if the guy is good or if they dont have the time to make their own
I was comparing SP4’s tunes to mine earlier today. I was surprised how radical his ARB, Spring Rate, Bump and Rebound Stiffness settings were to counter AWD understeering problems. It seemed like a copy paste for all of my AWD cars, instant improvement in lap times. Now I feel like RWD is only relevant when the stock car is already close to its target PI.
Even in simulators, theres setups which, well, game the systems. Thats the limitations of it being games and not real life. There will always be exploits in a physics engine because, in contrast to real life, simulated physics can break down. Its similar to how you would drive differently in a sim, to how you would drive in real life. Even if the physics were a perfect 1:1 representation of the real world, theres a multitude of reasons why you would probably approach the game differently (such as no crashing being far lower stakes, and the physical toll on your body it might be to brake that late every lap, etc etc).
about your "Even if the physics were a perfect 1:1 representation of the real world". there will always be ways to play the system in racing games when it comes to physics. the reason is just that in real life when something is happening we use numbers to make what we are seeing understandable and feasible for the human mind. so in short we use numbers to relfect reality. while in games its the opposite, we use numbers to create reality so to say. that means if you understand the game mechanics and the math behind it you can create some wild setups that would never work in real life but work in the game cus put simply, the math checks out yo. i doesnt matter how "realistic" your physics engine is. its always gonna be just numbers and calculations.
I think there should be 2 types of lobbies you get put into, much like how GTA sorts players based on their auto aim selection. Have one lobby be for casuals looking for arcade racing. Then, have the true-sim hardcore lobby, where every player MUST have the game set to realistic physics simulation. This mode would also fix in place various aides the cars do or don't have IRL. So let's say you have an old car, and IRL, it doesn't have ABS, TCS, or automatic transmission, these modes will be locked in to reflect said car's real-world attributes/features. Meanwhile, you may come across a modern car that has ABS, TCS, and ONLY comes in automatic. Again, said car will be locked into having those features. I think that would be pretty cool. It would also disable any of the other nanny settings like showing braking paths and such. Vehicle speed and mass would be incredibly important when approaching turns, and if hydroplaning can come into play, especially on ice, that would be amazing. IRL, I watched a guy in a 4x4 pickup shoot right into a snowbank at 70mph, because the moron didn't realize hydroplaning doesn't care what you drive, or how knobby your tires are. He ended up high-centering as the snow compacted under his chassis, and I came back around and helped pull him out. Another thing people don't realize is how quickly you can get stuck off-road. Lemme tell y'all another anecdote: My brother and I were up at the 1,000 yard range at the local shooting facility. That range is not open to the public, only RSOs such as myself, and there's both a magnetic key-locked gate, and a padlock gate. Well, someone not only closed the padlock gate behind us, but they switched the padlock to a new one with a different combination! So here we are, trapped on the side of a desert mountain (in Southeastern WA), and no way around the gate (gate is surrounded by large boulders, then super steep gully walls). So, we climbed back into my brother's truck, a 4x4 with off-road tires, and I suggested we take the emergency fire escape route. Turns out, that route isn't even a real road, no compacted dirt, no gravel, no asphalt, just loose topsoil and sand. We made it all the way down, and then, as we approached the magnetic key gate, the truck hit a small sink-hole, and bam, high-centered. Took us about 40 minutes with two shovels to dig us out and carry over gravel from the main road to put under the tires. Point is, if a lifted 4x4 with off-road tires gets stuck in the desert, imagine trying to drive a street car in the desert. So in the super hardcore mode, you'd on;y be able to drive off-road reliably with proper tires and lift. Regular tires would have a chance to become stuck, so street cars must be street cars, unless modified into rally cars. But I'm sure they will never do this, so whatever. It was a good excuse to tell a couple of stories.
I think that the tune should account for the PI, do not nearly as much as normal parts, I still want meta TUNING to be useful, but I dont want it to be overpowered
I honestly think adding an event flag for drivetrain would do a lot to up the fun factor for people not wanting to AWD swap every car. It'd be really enjoyable to only race against other RWD cars in something like cross-country for example.
The PI system is weird. I’m running drag tires on several of my A-class builds because it DROPS PI but INCREASES GRIP. Some engine swaps are broken too(LS GT-R is good; 4-rotor RX-7 is not). Maybe go back to only allowing swaps within the same company
I don't think they should limit the swaps but balance the swaps instead. LS swapped GTR should be as quick as one with RB, that is what the PI was meant to be.
Drag tires do increase grip but even with a good tune they’re hard to drive on circuit races against a car equipped with the proper tires for the track because they can’t maintain the same grip on turns as they do on straights
Great video! Honestly I don't mind that there are 'meta' tunes. Everyone is free to use them if they want to have a small edge or just use a different car. At the end of the day it mostly comes down to the driver's skill anyway.
Interesting thoughts. I think you're spot on on most if not all. It is an arcade game, so going hyper realism isn't the way. Making tunes and cars diverse should be the goal, but if all things are level and equal - what would the point be? There's a meta game in learning and exploiting the systems. Just like in an rpg as BG2 - part of the fun is to create builds and synergies to overcome the challenge. If all is balanced to perfection - where's the game? Driving skills? I'd get bored of that in a day. There are flaws that need correcting though, such as the rear wing that needs to go on most cars if you want to keep up. If not balanced out, at least allow minor tuning of the natural wing to make up some of the drawback.
My 2 cents is that none of that matters as long as you can avoid tryhards who exploit the meta, we need invite only session and things like that. This is the main issue right now : it's too complicated to simply good around with your friends in Horizon. I personally don't care about competition, I just want to drive cool cars and build even cooler one So yeah, basically if you ignore the issue it doesn't exist
I consider myself not bad at racing game (at least in arcade ones). I can say I'm in the average, if not, in the slightly above average players. I went through lots of trouble learning on how to properly tune cars so they do what you want. Most of the time I just focus on the race and don't focus too much on the result. I got FH5 recently and I can say I feel very frustrated as soon as I get in online. Litterally murdered with some having insanes chronos. I'm totally lost tbh but this video gave me a bit of an answer thanks you. I'm using a pad and I'm on Xbox One X.
Yeah i love the idea of making tuning count for PI points and making it as much as possible so that every car that is tuned to a certain PI point is relatively the same speed around a given track, even though i may be seen using one, i HATE meta builds because it takes out all the fun and creativity of horizon and just makes it a Nalak sweat fest!
If tuning effected pi like in Gran Turismo, you’d have things like the SRT Tomahawk exploit from their latest game....basically, the 4 speed Raesar in FH5, but with everything
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One major thing that needs fixing to me is engine swaps. In many cars, you can swap out the original engine with a new one that's both lighter and more powerful, but for some reason the PI for the new engine is actually lower. Most obvious example to me would be the LS-swapped Skyline GTRs. It's so cursed but they perform so well, so most people who take a GTR to online racing would have LS engines instead of RBs. It's a major issue in FH4 and it still is in FH5, but it doesn't bother me all that much since I rarely play online.
Man online is so hard now without red 😭 ass is trash now so I stick to Forza horizon 3. Soon I'll start playing the new Forza games so I'll just have to adapt soon
Whats more annoying is that when you tune the R34 to around 750 bhp with the RB engine and drag race it, it feels slow as fuck. The Supra as well. There is something fundamentally wrong with the physicis/specs of some cars.
The reason that happens for the most part, is that the swapped engine doesn't match the stock gearing, so when the AI runs the "track", it's much slower than stock. This is especially the case with the LS, since it revs much lower than most engines in the game. If a car is geared for like 170mph at somewhere around 8k rpm, swapping to the LS, which redlines in the 6k range will cap out the top speed much lower.
Its definitely not as easy to fix. But one way I could see of fixing it is to make the AI go through and optimize the top speed of the gearing when an engine swap is made. If it did that, I think you'd see a LOT less swaps.
@@firedell1031 I think they can use gt7 dynamic pp when change the setup for example gear ratio, the pp will also change
That's because there's other factors than just the power and weight. You also have to consider things like gearing and traction. If you suddenly put a much more powerful engine into a car that wasn't made for it, the tires won't always efficiently put the power down and you may compromise handling too.
I would say its because of the skull in the front, it scares the wind away so theres 0 resistance from it
I used to play a game that incorporated tuning into PI, and there was another way to get around it. I inverted the gearbox, making 1st into 6th, 2nd into 5th, and so on. This caused the AI to adjust final drive in order to make 1st gear usable. Then when it hit the limit of 1st gear, it would shift up, and up, and up, until it got into the slowest tractor gear imaginable. This caused the AI to run 10 times slower times than the car was capable of, and basically made every race a guaranteed win.
That’s actually super genius dude. Smart thinking
I do that sometimes but I get very confused about what I'm doing it's usually when I got a speed trap to hit so I f*** with the gearing make it go as fast as possible in the quickest time possible but it's always undriveable anything other than that straight line speed not sure I tried it on 5 yet but doing 200 in second gear and 250 by 6 is f****** weird but that's basically the result I end up with can it work better than I've described or is that basically what it is
Dude, that's brilliant.
Pixel car racing??
@@lordcegese1385 nah. But in pixel car racing what you do is make 4-6th gear unusable
I still go with realistic tunes, I don't care. It's so much more rewarding when you beat OP cars and so much more fun to race against other realistically tuned cars. As long as the other players race fair and clean, I don't really mind what place I finish in, I just enjoy a good battle, the problem is most of the people who use OP cars don't race clean, they just ram you off the road the first chance they get.
Oh little Jimmys the hight you go it seem to increase and decrease in the rammers. No real long lasting solove for it
Snap, there must be something better PG can do in open the Ramming literally makes it unplayable.
I understand your point, but i think Forza Horizon is meant to be arcady, you can't have a real tune and jump the danger signs from mountains, you have other sim games that fits real tuning.
yeah same even tho it is for just a almost last place. i see it so often that rammers are almost last places. what the point if u cant even hold up your 7th position without ramming. idk about winning, like u i prefer clean, intense and close racing but rammers destroy that
@@x7ameedo700 that has nothing to do with the tuning. like hoki hoshi said. its a game we dont have to deal with damage or safety
As a newer player, the number under the class icon (I am assuming that's what we are taking about) being affected by tuning would definitely help me figure out what helps and what doesn't. The newbie's assumption of "it's a bigger number so it must be good" plagues me so much to the point where I would lower the aero until the 0-60 time got longer because "Unga bunga speed go up," and then wonder why I can't turn well at high speeds.
Tuning is a lot for someone who's new to sim racing, and even a little hint (besides a wall of text) of whether or not the tune is making the car better or worse would be a massive help. Yes I can do a test-drive, but I don't exactly know what to look for or what exactly I did wrong. Your tuning tutorial certainly helps, but there's only so much a pre-recorded video can do in terms or real-time advice.
man i feel you it doesn't matter how many videos i watch or how many walls of text i read i only learned by trial and error and there's a lot that i still don't know
It also sucks that you can't easily scroll through those walls of text to understand what they're saying. Some are very important, such as the differential ones explaining how the locking affects cars of different drivetrains, but others like dampers and springs do nothing.
One thing that keeps coming to my mind when I think about how these tunes would look in real life is: if you did any of these things, you would destroy your tires in 1 lap or less. What if they did a "hardcore open racing" section with some tweaks closer to Forza Motorsport and also allowed tires to take the "realistic tire damage and wear" more... Realistically? It would give an entire segment of people who want greater diversity in tunes and more realism a place to stretch their (Forza) wings.
That's why Forza motorsport exists
@@shone7x359 Nop. Forza motorsport is barely different other then steering physics.
i mean there is simulation option on damage, which causes your tires to wear out to nothing.
There was a game I used to play as a kid. Can't remember the name of it right now, that changed some values in the physics model based on mode. There was an arcade mode which was just whip things into corners and have fun, and a realistic mode where suddenly everything got really really hard. It wasn't perfect, but taking the training wheels off and going into realistic mode was absolutely punishing. How to drive changed completely, and it was just juggling a few key variables in code. Forza could probably do it with little effort, and that one switch would double the game content. Everything the way it is now, plus everything again with the variable changes.
@@shone7x359 Forza Motorsport is dead though.
This was an excellent idea for a video, and one of the most useful for me.
I tune all my own cars, and I have watched a number of RUclips videos to learn more about it. I use HokiHoshi and ConnerSpeed6 the most. These leave me with a car that performs very well on technical tracks, such as Cathedral, where most often the only players using meta-tuning that can touch me are those that know how to ride the walls.
However, my cars are not particularly competitive on tarmac or dirt sprints with high-speed, wide turns, where meta-tuning really comes into play. Unfortunately I race against meta-tuned cars that leave me in the dust because they are tuned almost completely for speed and not handling, which means they don’t have to make the compromises that I do.
To try and equalize my performance, I've also tried to use SP4’s meta-tuning guide, which has completely different ideal settings, making compromising the two approaches very difficult.
I’m not a fan of meta tuning for a few reasons.
1) I want to be able to tune my cars using my knowledge of real physics and not the game meta. ConnerSpeed6 goes into extreme detail about such things as cambered tires keeping their contact patch on the surface during the stresses of turning. I love learning all that. but I’m not sure how much it applies to the game.
2) Meta-tuning also means meta-driving, exploiting the game physics to gain speed, which involves techniques such as bouncing off walls. I only consider my own driving good if I never touch a wall, which unfortunately means I am less competitive.
Yea I feel you
I feel the problem with Meta is that it really favors speed over everything else
Yep, same feeling, i usualy set my cars for grip/lightweight, while it's really obvious that most of tracks are more adapted to fast tanks, and since there is zero "rules", you can't beat a heavy/powerfull car with a light/slow one. They push you aside like a feather, block the way or ruin your trajectory in curves, and then goes away 2x faster than you....
About pure META, the issue is not really the lack of logic, but more like... people often take THE car that rules a category, and you can't catch up. If everybody use META cars, there is no point in using others 600 cars :v
I use SP4's guide for all my custom tunes and it works far better for me than the HokiHoshi's one. I really recommend it to anyone playing on Xbox or PS controller. I almost always finish on top 2 with no engine swaps and using a personal tune, only losing 20% of the time for OP meta cars/tuning with swaps and played by good drivers.
I actually think it's cool that such funny cars can be so fast in this game, but when someone can just sit in one car that's clearly broken, use minimal skill to fly around tracks online, and ram people off the road to get to the top of leader boards it's just stupid at that point. Then when they try another vehicle on another road they get mad and just leave the lobby. This is one of the most noob-friendly racing games I've ever seen. But thanks for another vid bro I've been subbed for years.
Agreed. Online racing in forza is not even fun anymore
If you think a noob can get on top of the leaderboards with a meta car you’re seriously underestimate the Forza hot-lap and competitive community
@@elhomoflow it may not be the top of the leaderboard but they win races pretty easily.
@@digitalcamaro9708 agreed. I gave my friend a few of the popular meta tuned cars and he does really well in them and definitely a noob
@@elhomoflow Bone Shaker drivers beg to differ.
No skill's required for that thing.
I like to drive cars in their stock form to see what they really feel like. The stats don’t always give you the full picture. Handling stat isn’t always the most accurate IMO. There are so many random builds that are possible and competitive that come from this and you become a better tuner/driver in the process. My favorites right now are the F1, Sagaris, any 911, and S7.
true, my favorite car in the game is the ariel atom V8 stock, any modification to power or handling ruins it's balance :(
I can confirm on the handlin isn't accurate aspect. I do a huge amount of rwd builds, muscle car builds, and offroad builds which tend to have low handlin and yet super fast high end supercars have significantly worse handlin than any of my usual builds. I even have this rwd Dart that smokes my friends who use "only the best of the best" cause they only believe that stat and don't test their cars before claimin it's the best of the best. Its all bout the driver, not what the game says is good
Nice, a fellow Sagaris enjoyer
This is why I have purist builds, they are sometimes fun to use even though they're slower most of the time
None of the stats are truly accurate, I've noticed that for many years across horizon and motorsport. They are simply accurate for that individual car in most cases. I know plenty of cars I have used across both games that have some lower stats than other cars of mine, the 1-10 stats, but they'll be able to outperform other cars with higher stats in either handling, braking, acceleration, top speed, etc. It's been an issue ever since I can remember paying attention to it which was forza motorsport 4.
I think a lot of the more OP powerbuilds would go away overnight if (rear) aero actually cost P.I rather than reduced it, It makes no sense to me that adding a rear spoiler takes a chunk out of the P.I. Yes, it reduces your top speed and adds drag but that's not much of a problem when its already ludicrously high.
An AWD car that does 235mph in A class comfortably but has crap tyres benefits hugely from aero and would be terrible without it, so why am I being given MORE budget for improving the car? Silly meta builds will always exist but circumventing tyres made out of cheese with aero is a massive oversight in my mind. You wouldn't let a GTR in the same race as a bunch of Miatas on the basis it has a big wing adding drag.
AWD and engine swaps can be countered most of the time by just driving decent, although it would be nice if stock engines were buffed a bit so that engine swaps were made as a powerband/torque behaviour choice rather than simply because its PI efficient.
I think the biggest culprit of all is the tracks, realistically 99% favour power, if you're competent you probably destroy most of the playing field when cathedral circuit comes up because people simply aren't used to tracks like that.
If Road racing was all technical circuits and street racing was entirely sprints, that might split tuning builds into their respective homes, there's very little reason to opt for handling unless you find yourself in a setlist with 2 circuit races.
Yes and i think the Forza aero stuff is hideous
The aero does nothing for power builds boss. We only throw the rear wing on to knock our PI down to upgrade the car elsewhere. We then reduce its downforce production to a minimum in the tuning menu to prevent mid corner understeer.
@@sarahwood8943 Thats what he's saying. In his first sentence.
@Waldel Martell The thing is the sprints and even many of the circuits in the game do favour power because you can use it. Unlike irl race tracks
My fav car is McLaren F1 GT with stock tyres, sport gears for -10 PI and rear wing. Not sure why a rocket is allowed on track races but is quite inefficient with its RWD on small corners at most street races. I love the start when everyone flies away from me, then some end up in bushes at t1.
Maybe they should implement half classes at the 50 point in each class. It could shake up builds a bit.
Yeah that was basically homologation in motorsport and we saw how bad of a system that was. The whole system needs to be looked at.
Particularly for S1 and S2. I find the other classes are fine.
I don't know about horizon, but in motorsport the top cars from all classes have been the same mostly for the last 3 titles. I know they are two different games, but got the same system in place. The Honda S2K for example is one the best cars for c and b class in motorsport 5 6 and 7, with just a few other cars also being best for certain tracks in those classes. Not much diversity. I'm hoping they are taking forever for motorsport because of that and ranked races. If so, fh6 might have more hope. Lots of hoping and ifs though haha.
They need to do a FM4 and swap S2 for R3-1
@@Elit3Nick I miss the r3 r2 and r1 classes of fh1
I'd say biggest thing tuning system needs here is ECU tuning to help dial in that rogue 1-5 PI without making you scrap an entire part and then be unable to fill the gap.
Really, forza ENGINE tuning is really bad. Every part is just street sport or race, there's no brands, no actual tuning of the engine and absolutely unrealistic mods
If you want a game with actual engine tuning, beamng drive is way more fun
You’re driving is so smooth man. Sometimes I’ll rewatch your vids over and over to watch how you take certain corners and seeing how I can improve my own driving based on it.
I wouldn’t use Hoki as an example. He is decent, but definitely no where near the best player. I’d recommend SP4 on RUclips if you wanna see some proper top 1% drives. He actually a good player.
@@sarahwood8943 At the same time, crest-corners such as at 12:11 will still trip up all but the best people.
Honestly, I want to see tuning being accounted for in PI at the very least be tested. That way, if it turns out to be bad, they can just roll back the changes (assuming it doesn't become a mess of code). Actually, that testing could be done through the Insider Hub! Anyone remember that?
It's been like this for ages in the forza serie unfortunately. I remember playing FM3 and FM4 back then on the 360, and the AWD swap meta was already there , or the drag tire was often used to bring down the car in class.
Thanks for explaining this, I was really curious about this stuff.
very good video Hoki, especially about the breaking while turning contrast between sim and near-sim arcade
The game’s PI should be more based towards a higher top speed, so that cars such as the boneshaker will perform less well
Also the point about limiting factors where you said it would be bad to limit tire width but not horsepower kind of is exactly the case in Forza. The tires provide so much of a class increase when doing a powerbuild that sometimes you have to limit it for the most potential
Also it is totally possible for Forza to nerf certain cars. Back in Forza Motorsport 4 there used to be a car so unbelievably overpowered that it claimed every single spot on a top 10 the night it was discovered. That car was a 450HP D class Chevrolet Camaro. And a week later, Forza nerfed that tune all the way up to A Class
Great video overall👍
I like the car launching at 14:16. Very Forza.
I gave up on real-world tuning logic when I was absolutely spanked by a 1940s Willys blowing past me at about 140mph while I was in a modern day Jeep Rubicon upgraded like mad. I was like, "What the actual fuck?" So much for being a sim.
There's sometimes such a fine line between a meta build and just a really good tune, how could it possibly be enforced or regulated (if PGG ever felt the need) When it becomes stupid (the recent Raesr drift gearbox fiasco) that's when it needs to be looked at. I play a lot of Open Drift, and the sheer number of times that myself and everybody else is 200k points behind a Willy's Jeep or BMW Isetta is ridiculous!!
that's why i haven't playing lately
@@charlesanderson1321 Yeah as soon as I see the starting grid list and those cars are there, I'm just like "Here we go again" 😔
Honestly I think the system is good, I just wish the values for speed, Gs and etc that are shown in the tuning window
Were more reflective. One thing that's tough even with RUclips is remembering what tuning you need to do for turn in response vs in corner grip (which I applaud you for that video you have)
2:48 "It would be a bad idea to limit tire width and grip, but not horsepower"
Formula drift has entered the chat.
Ah this explains why they can’t just nerf or buff a car the same way call of duty can do their guns 🧐
it really doesnt they are just lazy its the same thing with every game company balance is hard to achieve if you want it theres plenty of solutions and no excuses if they dont ruin the game why they arnt added
they could just adjust the pi score after simulation based on a few characteristics
@@thebowtieguy777 they may not have that functionality in the system. a more viable adjustment for the raeser issue would be adding a raeser (and i-pace i guess, but i don't think the i-pace was broken and it could just be unbanned) specific version of the drift transmission with reasonable gearing so it would be handled appropriately in the pi system
Another huge issue with the PI system is there isnt enough classes.
the sheer amount of cars that start at S2 998 while D class has a bunch of
Agreed, more classes would definitely increase build variety. I have a few cars setup for S1 850 that wouldn't be able to reach S1 900 without an engine swap. Renaming S2 to S3 and moving S2 to 850 PI would prevent this. I'd really like to see an A1 and A2 with 750 PI and 800 PI limits respectively, especially considering A class is much faster now than it was in FH4. Some cars are doomed to fail because they're always overpowered or underpowered at multiples of 100 PI.
As for tuning influencing PI, I'm not a fan. I'd rather they simulate the time with the applied tune, but it would have to make a minimal difference on PI or I'd be constantly going back and forth trying to squeeze out the last PI. The meta cars would switch from cars that provide an advantage when driven by a human, to cars that have an advantage when driven by AI.
I tune my cars relatively realistically, something I picked up from Assetto Corsa, yet I have no problem beating meta cars as long as the track is suitable for my car. The problem comes when dirt racing or straightline speed is involved. You get cars with ridiculous power and barely any grip that should burn through tires in seconds winning endurance style races, and anything with mixed surfaces or off road is a nightmare as you said.
didn't the og forza have classes that were also divided into numbers too?
@@sumerapoke my first Forza was Motorsport 3, and it started at F class. It went F-S, then R3-R1, then X class
The part in your comment about the offroad stuff, they tried that in FH4, but supercars and track toys ended up being faster anyway, it just made everything annoying as f**k to drive and so much as clipping the grass, weather it be a small driving error, or being pushed off, was almost alway a guarantee that you’d crash and lose the race, even after gaining a 10 second lead. Then added wall collision penalties made things infinitely worse, as you could get pushed into a tree for build and have your engine’s power cut for an additional 5-15 seconds before setting off again.
I swear, it’s always hardcore sim racers advocating for more realism in games they either don’t play, hardly ever play, or stop playing after getting what they want that want this type of sh*t.
Not trying to target anybody, but this is the kind of behavior that damn near killed the arcade racing franchise.
@@vaulthunterfromterra4053 I have to disagree on the idea that FH4 grass was too slippy. I have literally never had an issue with it. maybe its a problem in S2 and X class ranked racing or some shit but it was too lenient at the very least in even A class.
as for "hardcore sim" stuff ruining the "arcade racing franchise", I ask this:
Why have a "simulation" setting in the handling settings if its not the most realistic behavior you can make it?
feel free to have it set to a more arcade like option, but when I say I want simulation in the settings, I want the best you can offer. if you dont want to slide on grass, im fine if the more arcade like settings let you drive like that. "but then everyone would just race on the softer settings to gain an advantage in online game modes", then let players matchmake within their preferred settings. that easy man. they had the more realistic stuff in motorsport, why even touch it in the "simulation" setting on horizon? soften it up for the other options, and leave it alone for sim.
Honestly I just wish we could download tunes and fine tune them..
Realistic tunes are good, but nothing is better than tuning a Polaris to go 257 kph and throwing an anime wrap on it
What about tuning a bmw isetta that looks like a little tikes car to drive that fast
12:49 I like this idea, and what makes it better is, Turn 10 has already done this with Motorsport. If you’ve ever played it, AWD and FWD have problems with understeer, and the only way to fix it is with tuning. Bc of that RWD cars are put on a relatively level playing field. Unfortunately, speed and power is still OP in the Motorsport’s series, but you really have to put in more effort when it comes to the tuning
7:53 would have been a missed checkpoint for me smh
70-80 rear bias on a grippy awd car is amazing and helps turn in so much. highly recommend
Ever heard of sway bar shenanigans?
Tuning being part of PI is absolutely a good idea. I believe it would balance car choices and builds much more satisfactorily and tuning would go from being absolutely crucial to even compete to a beneficial factor to tweak around driver's preference and track diversity
Imagine if changing the clutch actually changed how much power you could reasonably get to the wheels, like in real cars, instead of just being a shift time metric.
the biggest factor why meta cars and tunes work in the game is that you don't have damage to consider. most if not all meta driving styles and tunes would blow your tires within a few minutes and your transmission and motor would say good by really fast. there is a reason why there is no drifting in real races except in rally on gravel, dirt or snow roads. locking up your tire for 30+ meters means that you have a flat spot on your tires that massivly reduce your handling and performance and we are locking up our tires at 200+km/h for seconds before going into the slide around the corner. the tires performance would be gone in rl by that time.
the next thing is that the motor would overhead in rl because we almost always are in the close to red area of the rmp meter and no motor is holding that for so long. even f1 cars are only for a short period of time over 60% of the meter because the cooling can't handle more and it would overheat.
it is one of the most unrealistic things in the game and how automatic transmission work. nobody in RL get's even close to the 60% mark when swtiching from the 1 to 2 gear but forza goes over the red region before switching. automatic transmission are way more complicated in itself and to tune than it is done in the game and many meta builds profit from that, especially if they use the automatic transmission in manual, something that doesn't work in RL because it is build completly differently.
I personally enjoy being able to tune my cars without needing to worry about PI. I feel that if tuning WAS taken into account, it would probably shift the importance of tuning more towards tweaking it for your personal driving style, which is fine, but it would also increase the burden of knowledge and just the effort it takes to get a well-balanced car in general. H5 is my first serious racing game and the tuning system already looked super intimidating when I started out but at least I had guides to tell me what works and what doesn't, should that be taken away because it's all in my personal driving style and I have no easy well to tell how much of a balance I need to take between comfort and PI cost?
One way they could maybe tackle this without changing it is just improving the base tune, or even making it scale with the build you have so the AI is using a tune that more realistically approximates the one you will use in practice. The whole recent debacle with the A-class Raesr came down to the tune limiting it to sub-30mph - if it realised that it was on a hypercar that can do 200+ easily and lengthened the final drive appropriately before player tuning then it would have been a non-issue.
I think the physics tweak to nerf grip during moments of hard braking and turning could also be a cool change, and would slot into the existing difficulty settings really well with the TCS option to make it more of an optional choice like ABS currently is - you sacrifice speed around corners for stability.
TCS is as optional as ABS. While the leaderboard cars tend to be some ridiculous power builds you can get away with balanced RWD cars online. Go for a higher tire class, lower the pressure to around 1.5 bar for everything besides slicks and throttle control isn’t more difficult than braking without ABS.
@@elhomoflow ... what does RWD have to do with this?
TCS is not viable and definitely not as viable as ABS for racing, you lose so much time on high speed corners it cancels out whatever advantage you get from faster corner exits. I play with a controller that doesn't have analogue triggers and ABS is almost mandatory while TCS is easy to play without.
Throttle control is much easier than brake control even with analogue input because you can also control revs with feathering and shifting up/down. You have nothing like that with braking, and if you lose grip braking you fly off the track.
@@ShawFujikawa braking is not that hard. Just needs a little practice
>it would also increase the burden of knowledge and just the effort it takes to get a well-balanced car in general
Sounds good to me. On one hand it encourages experimentation and possibly gave the player an opportunity to understand how things actually works (just like in real life and any other games), on the other hand the burden of knowledge is practically the same for someone who knew nothing about the game and cars because "meta tunes" in of itself is a knowledge they wouldn't know. Plus if it does leads to more tune variety then there's really no contest here.
@@shira_yone Increasing burden of knowledge is bad as it makes the topic less approachable, and that goes doubly so with tuning because now you've put a PI price tag on your comfort alongside the PI cost of the upgrade system so you can't even tweak your tune now without potentially having to retune elsewhere, rebuild your car or straight up make it less fun to drive. If anything it makes meta tunes even more common, not less common, because it makes tuning so much more complicated that less people are going to be interested in working it out for themselves.
It does improve the balance of cars with bad stock setups that cheat the PI system (like the Daytona in FH4), as intended, but you could also do that by just improving those stock tunes while keeping everything else mostly the same.
You are way more advanced in this than I ever will be and i have been playing since motorsport 3. My issue is that I do the 4 wheel drive conversion specifically because I find the car undrivable otherwise. The side effects are that I end up just plowing through corners and most egregious it drops the top speed by a ton. If memory serves, on one occasion it went from 230 to like 180 or something similar.
Have you ever thought of creating your own system for determining PI? Without modding, you might need a way to manually review builds making PI review longer. But this allows to create new types of player driven events that can create new metas and builds. This could be done with any game as well if you know how to make manual review PI systems.
It needs like PI like GT7. It's fun tuning a car down to a limit in GT7
My friend always drives RWD cars and never AWD. He says that RWD is overall better because it gives you higher top speed and better handling. Is RWD actually better than AWD?
It used to be the case that AWD was really powerful, but H5's changes to suspension/grip etc have made RWD really competitive. Nowadays it kinda just comes down to the car, class and actual track being raced on. (Which is how it works in real life!)
@@HokiHoshi I'm confused, OP's comment says it was posted 7hrs ago but your reply was posted 8hrs ago? What trickery is this?!
I'm such a good RUclipsr that I can anticipate and reply to comments before they arrive 😎
RWD does provide better turn-in than AWD
@@HokiHoshi rwd turns in better if you have proper grip and weighs less
I only play FH casually and my consideration of upgrades usually stops at "does it sound cool and still steer", it's interesting to see how the system works for higher skill level players, great video!
This is perhaps the most relevant guide you've made for forzas tuning.
Ironically, yes it is.
I, for one, could not care less about any "Meta".
I play my way, and that's what i like.
In the end, i play to have fun... it's not life and death.
And the biggest difference of a game and real life... in games you have hundreds of chances... in real life you only have one, then its out.
Same.
However discussing this issue is also important, so it will be improved hopefully.
@@shira_yone Exactly.
This video actually helped me tune off-metta more than you think hoki
Wow, such a good video. I play a lot of Touge lobbies & only drive cars I actually want which sometimes results in "underpowered and slow" cars. I was always baffled at how some would tell other players how to tune their cars without knowing anything about driveline types, but now it makes sense. I typically use real world tuning experience and plug it in game in order to achieve my success and it's always an uphill battle against meta tuning. I try to explain to people Forza can be a baseline to achieve better IRL experience, most don't listen but man, it's so rewarding whenever someone notices driver skill still can play a major part in every aspect of this game.
One thing I think would be awesome to add is the ability to tune boost levels
The big issue for me is the wildly disparate PI cost for tyres. Rally tyres don't cost much, but give so much grip in A class that you don't need semi-slicks even on a circuit focused build. That means you dump the rest of the PI into power and beat everyone. How it should work is that different classes have different tyre restrictions, so rally tyres can't be used in A class circuit racing, drag tyres can't be used in B class rally etc. If you are required to add a certain tyre to your build to compete in an A class event, you are forced to make a "proper" tune instead of an overpowered meta tune.
The whole point of Forza Horizon is freedom of choice. Restricting that won’t solve the root of the issue, improper balancing.
I think making tuning affect the rating is a good idea, especially since certain cars can go from top of one class performance, to near top of the next class in performance just with a good tune.
For those, the value of tuning is that one can turn a car that can't quite reach the top of their class into a car that can, just by tuning.
However if there is a big desire to make tuning matter as well, then simply making it so that tunes always go a bit more than their rating, not enough for it to make as much of a difference as it does now, but enough that when pros try to fight for the best times, it matters.
Is that why I saw a Ww2 jeep went crazy fast yesterday?
First of all, I loved this video! Much time and dedication went into this and it shows. Clear, convoluted information that is easy to follow and understand!!!
That being said however, I really don't think any of this needs altering. While I agree with all the points u stated about possible and potential changes and their impacts, I feel like, it, just isn't needed. 🤷♂️ Ngl, I play for horizon for these types of physics; being able to switch a car to AWD, slap a naughty bodykit, spoiler, the whole 9 yards and go throw it through corners at speeds I really shouldn't be able to! 🤣
If I wanted something more realistic, handling wise, I'd go play the likes of something like GT7, asseto corsa, Iracing and NFS(Just kidding! 🤣). I feel like even if u were alter it slightly, they'd be crossing over into these games territories and it's just needless competition for both parties involved!
Forza Motorsport and more importantly, in this case, horizon, has its place and its quite a perfect one! 👌
Again, fantastic video!! 👏👏😍
Perhaps some form of "success ballast" system could be added that either on a game wide or individual players that do things like add a few extra PI to "meta" cars and builds, like how some touring car or GT car racing series make the previous race winner add a series of weights to the car. Each time someone else wins the ballast is removed and given to them, this would be tricky to get right but it would stop the same meta car being use over and over again and force some variety. After using another car or changing the build for a time the extra "success PI" is removed, if it was game wide for a specific car or setup like Boneshakers they would be temporally nerfed for a time.
This is one way real racing has dealt with "Meta" cars, in the series it was well implemented it did add some variety in the fights for the podium.
Such a good video! I learned so many new things about my favorite game. Your video need so much more attention!
Yo nice video like every time Hoki.
The part about the tune and physics is toobased, most of the ppl ignores the fact that Horizon is the son of Motorsport and there's some inheritance for example in the physics, which as u said, are tweaked to make the game easier to be catchy compared to more simulating focused games. You can even swap between less and more realistic driving style in FH, which doesn't make a crazy difference, it doesn't change the engine, only how "demanding" is the game, which, as said, doesn't change a lot.
The thing about building a name ingame by tuning is absolutly true too, in fh4 I've tuned a lot, like 100+ uploads but didn't had much impact cuz the game was already kinda dead when I got into it.
When FH5 arrive I spended, like, the first 2 months or something like that doing drift tunes so, by now I've 100k downloads and It feels amazing when someone writes U about he's enjoying one of your tunes, not cuz ego, cuz he's enjoying my work as I for example enjoy the work of the ppl that does designs or custom eventlab maps, we're a community and the thing that makes this game big is that, our work, is the same that happens with Asseto Corsa, at this point Event Lab has infinite content that U can enjoy, and again, that's because of us.
Btw, I'm looking for people to work with, Im open to any project, my gametag is Senkitox.
PeepoPeaceOut
Well said and very informative, keep up the good work!
Actually not much different than sims such as Iracing or Rfactor 2. There are known exploits in those titles that make you faster and have absolutely no chance of working in real life. But, they work in the sim. So even "hardcore sims" have items that can be manipulated. At the end of the day, any racing title is just a bunch of numbers and those numbers can be manipulated if you spend the time to figure those manipulations out.
Actually a good point!!! 🤣
The Iracing brake drag, absolutely infuriating
A few things would go a long way to balance the game substantially:
1) The only part of tuning that should be considered in PI is gearing, that way you can't stuff a short transmission in a fast car and tune the lack of top speed out. Or just have the game auto tune adjustable transmissions to meet the aerodynamic top speed of the car. Either way works.
2) Have different "test tracks" for road, rally, and off-road races, and separate PI accordingly. Before building a car, the game can just ask what you plan on using it for and scale PI accordingly.
3) Restrict tire type per PI class. Since a lot of power builds take advantage of the garbage "stock" tires on old cars, you could phase this out by requiring a certain type of tire for a certain PI. For example for road races, B class requires street, A requires sport, S1 requires race, etc.
4) Set the default AWD diff tuning to be more rear biased (30-70 or so) so the bots testing the car don't experience as much understeer.
Putting all of these things together would make the game substantially better. It'd make racing more balanced, help new people build more balanced cars, and give the meta more variety. And none of these efforts would be difficult to code into the game, either.
Make it happen, Forza!
I agree with everything you said except 3. Tire limitations would severely limit what you can build in those classes and limit creativity in extension. Also, picking a race category that the PI would base on would work great in a sim racer, but not Forza. It’s because people who, oh I don’t know… don’t want to race, would have to pick a PI type for something that may not be what they’re building for. Ex: I want to build a tag car that needs high suspension for the bumps and jumps and also needs snappy handling to juke a chasing player: what would I pick for PI? Especially if it’s in the open world, I could build a rally car, chose drag racing as a PI system, and run around free roam playing tag in a car that says it’s A 786 when it performs like a S1 897. See the problem there?
Also: the thing you said that gears should be the only thing that accounts in PI actually makes sense, but I personally don’t like that because it,again, limits what a player can do and that’s no fun on a game like horizon. I consider myself a professional tuner and I don’t think that tuning should be accounted for in PI at all. The only thing I think would be a great fix for the system would just be to make the base tunes handle better in AWD (and maybe a bit in FWD). This solution would raise PI on AWD cars, and still not affect what tuning can still be done to it to improve it, and it also would create no need to limit certain upgrades to certain classes. It would be a fairly easy thing to implement too. It’d be like what you said about making AWD more rear bias stock. Except that would be the only thing that I’d do. Sorry to go on so long about this. It’s just that this is my bread and butter in the game that I played 95% of my gaming career, and if it were to change so drastically by taking the advantage out of the one thing that took me so long to master, I don’t know how I’d handle it. It would definitely ruin the game for me and ALL of my friends. Most everyone I have met in game, either just starting or veterans or just play for fun people, they ALL have tuned their cars for something (90% of the people I meet tune at least a bit and try at least a bit to learn how to tune better). That simple change of putting tuning in as part of the PI would I think destroy the fanbase and put a LOT people off playing. Forza is a game that has one of the most loyal fanbases, this would probably play a massive part in killing the game. Sorry for the rant, this is not all directed at your comment, but it just all came out. Have a good day! And happy tuning!
I dunno if it would help or hinder it but perhaps having the "AI test track" be tailored to the type of tires you pick rather than the game explicitly asking you what you intend the car to do.
I notice more and more in a lot of high performing tunes that cars are put on off-road or rally tires even when they are in fact designed as high grip street builds. So that may also help counter some of the meta trickery like putting offroad tires on an Enzo to make it an op S1 car. Of course it could also totally do the opposite and make the trend even more extreme.
@@SarcasticTentacle it’s an untested idea. But I think the developers know that any change to the system needs some serious consideration and a lot of work to make sure it’s well balanced and not limiting. I think that the modern system works well enough not to change, I’d rather them just make changes to individual cars, or focus their attention on something else in the game that needs more immediate attention. The PI system is a thing that works great for what it needs to do, changing it would be hard and tedious, and there are other much more pressing issues they should attend to well before even thinking about the PI system.
I feel largely the same, but it is interesting to consider how to "solve" the meta question. Until this video I didn't even know how Forza calculated PI.
@@SarcasticTentacle it is good to be curious about it, I wasn’t entirely aware either of how it worked. But I don’t think it needs solving, that’s my opinion though, you’re full welcome to have your own opinion. But I stand firm on this for myself because it affects me so greatly
This is a comment to support channel. Great video!
Thanks for the explanation of what's going on behind the scenes in Forza with the simulation and how it affects the PI system and tunes.
The changes I would like to see are to have PI updated after tuning instead of calculated before, to have the AI driving model improved to generate a more realistic PI (big ask), to do away with the unrealistic grip simulation on the front wheels and instead update the driving assists to help with this, and finally to revamp the races to make it easier to restrict (or require) upgrades and ban things like AWD and engine swaps, or force cars to use rollcages to be more realistic for players who want that experience.
Great points and I agree with all of them. About the turning at high speeds though... I also noticed the exceptional turning ability at high speeds, but I also know that I don't drive a $million-dollar car with sticky tires, 4000-8000lbs of down force at those speeds and endless attempts at getting it right or better over and over again without dying in real life. So, who really knows but it so is fun.
Honestly for me, the one thing I really wish they'd change is RWD power builds, and that was as someone who loves RWD cars. A very tiny fraction of the community can use them, forget about it if you are on a wheel, which goes against the concept of accessibility. Also, even many who are good with them admit they aren't fun to drive. They also break the leaderboards, as they are magnitudes faster than anything else on the roads. But seriously, even the most difficult to drive race cars in realistic sims are easy to drive in comparison. When I quit playing a few months ago (lost interest since it was either easy wins in pvp or guarunteed losses against powerbuilds), there were some great RWD cars that weren't powerbuilds, and I imagine we would have seen more them and a narrowing of the gap from the elite to the very, very good by a massive margin.
I guess the fundamental question is this: how accessible do you want the game to be? In my opinion, I think there's value in having a challenging to use but rewarding car type in the game. That's the rwd powerbuild. Most other games such as combat games like smash all have a character that only an experienced player can make the most out of and that allows them to have an edge over the rest. The rwd powerbuild fulfills that same category in fh5. These builds push players to get better at driving rather than being competitive out of the box with the awd meta. If fh5 is too accessible, there is no reward/progression skill wise to the game. This is why I think the removal of ranked racing was detrimental, I barely play online anymore.
This not a natural progression of difficulty that allows skill players to gain an edge. It's an absolute cliff from every type of car being easy and fun to drive to a sudden spike in difficulty to ridiculously high levels (only a tiny fraction of people can drive or race them effectively, and only with a controller) that isn't particularly fun. And advantage isn't slim or even large, it's massive. I raced competitively in sims, and even the hardest to drive cars were no where near as difficult and felt rewarding to master. Many times they didn't even give an advantage, or it was small. RWD power builds in FH5 are not that. The Boneshaker is OP for a non RWD powercar, but at least it's fun to drive and the advantage isn't 3-5 seconds a lap, but a much smaller amount.
i like how he added the part about difficult race cars being easy, i play alot of assetto corsa on wheel and drove cars like the gt40 and some of the old 40s race cars and they are incredibly difficult to drive since all the raw power is put down on tires that cant even handle half of it, then i go on forza and yeah they seem kinda slippery but it is nowhere as crazy as a normal sim and completely takes away from the fun of driving them, and also makes them faster than they would be irl
same with mid engine cars that dont have alot of rear downforce, in sim's once they hit their limit, that back end is immedietly coming around and you have to be ontop of it at all times, but on forza that is almost entirely nonexistent except for low speeds or really high hp cars
@@GraceTheTDI I was speaking of relative difficulty. Part of that may be using a wheel on FH5, but I went through pretty much every car on AMS2, and nothing came close to the difficulty of driving a power RWD car on FH5. And the difficult ones where fun and interesting, whereas FH5 power RWD cars where nothing of the sort.
3:18 In basically any racing series, tire width, weight, suspension type, aerodynamics and so on are restricted, as well as engine. It's just that high horespower isn't so op on real race tracks as it is in Horizon.
You also forgot something simple for the sim drivers like me in fh5...money shifting exploits, knowing that your engine naturally would go cachowboom, but nothing bad really happens if you purposely money shift to force the car into a corner
Please God let your next video be how to meta tune! I love your videos, you are the best Forza RUclipsr. And I love your tuning guides. Keep it coming!
SepiSP4 has that already covered.
@@elhomoflow link?
@@sh4rkalpha m.ruclips.net/video/kVfBJu580Sw/видео.html
Thanks man, another really informative video.
An amazing display of insight this video is. I think we could decrease this variety issue by adding drivetrain restrictions for each class without touching existing systems as they are already much better than in FH4. For example having D to S1 AWD, FWD, and RWD separated. (Maybe S1 FWD is not very achievable and S2 probably should be anything goes). The downside is you would have to have 2 to 3 times more cars ready but is this reaaaally an issue when there are hundreds of cars to choose from and lots of amazing tuners out there.
Each drivetrain and class will develop its own meta but already there would be three metas in each class. Furthermore, drivetrains would not be competing with each other so there would be more freedom in building and tuning inside the restrictions.
Another thing to consider would be road design. We do not have many low-speed tracks even though there are lots of square kilometres on the map. We could have narrower and twistier roads in some areas and still keep those high-speed roads.
The stock cars seem stupidly under powered, sports cars seem to take longer to get to 60mph than my 2.0l diesel does irl 🤣
A simple fix is to change the approach to restrictions for entry to events. In place of the current system where events specify a certain Class (D-X) to enter an event, exchange that for a simple "maximum power, minimum weight, set drivetrain (FWD/RWD/AWD/Open)" entry restriction to events. The PI system then becomes more a side tool that gives you a rough estimate of how performant your vehicle is but your competitiveness no longer hinges on having to bring your top of class car to every race or finding ways to glitch the upgrade system for a meta car.
As an added touch, make some of the default events stipulate stock vehicles only (although i guess that hinges on the AI being fixed so they dont launch RWD like its AWD and actually get out of shape once in a while...)
for future videos u might want to look into how you can avoid "sharp s peaks" because often it sound like the are way louder or even overdrives
I did notice there are some broken upgrades in Forza that doesn't make sense in the game.
In Forza Motorsport 7, I built a car that despite its Pi rating, kept being able to compete in a class above what it was built for, when we tested it head to head it could even compete on straight line speed which was the biggest shocker.
Whenever I've done transmission tuning, I tend to go for real world gear ratios and what one could get for differential gear ratios off the shelf. If I need top speed, I try to get a 2.73 differential gear set with a 0.50:1 overdrive in the transmission.
One thing that comes to my mind with engine swaps at least is adding in forged engine options like NFS Heat did so people can still be competitive and it's there for those people (like me) who don't necessarily want to swap out the stock engine. I hope that makes sense. I don't always wanna swap in a V12 or LS motor just to be competitive. What if I want the stock engine but it takes more power? Idk just thinking out loud
big big agree with this (mainly bc I love running rotaries and I don't want to have to swap to the 4 rotor every time I wanna use one)
@@Benjamin-tr4jr I loved that Heat did that because I build cars based on how I would build them in real life and most of my builds would use the original engine or a forged option
I would be happy if there was not a random paragraph scrolling on the right side of the screen as you are working on a tune. I am trying to learn how to tune and it is not always clear what the change I just made just did to the car. If in the tuning screens it showed for instance "Over steer" and "Under steer" and show what your changes are as you make them. I have watched many videos and I see a lot in the videos explain, "if your car does this, these are the 5 settings you can change to help fix that." I never know which of the 5 I should start with to fix my issue.
I think the upgrading parts system is ok, but it also could have similar features like tuning, make clearer what the new part is going to do.
I understand that by making the changes I am mentioning begins to decrease the advantages to someone who has put in the hours of time to learn about the process and as a result create tuning that they can share and profit from.
Thanks for the videos, watch them often, many repeatedly as I learn.
Yeah that would be cool if tillemitry was shown while you were tuning and after so you could really dial down what you're looking for
The thing is because it's a game the titanic paragraph scrolling on screen doesn't even represent accurately what the results would be if you tuned how it's describing. In some instances it's actually just flat wrong like brake bias for instance which is reversed and has been for over a decade with no change for some reason lol Just simple things like how videos break them down would be great. I.E. move this stiffer for oversteer or decrease deceleration for understeer etc etc. Sometimes less is more. And for the love of fucking god Forza QUIT FUCKING LOCKING DOWNLOADED TUNES! I don't want an incredible ARB setting someone has and gear ratios that someone put hours into to be ruined by them having their damn brake pressure put to 200 when I drive with ABS and they don't. It's so frustrating lol If I can download a tune and change it in PROPER Sims there is no reason to be locking this shit in Forza of all things lol
I personally just get bored of how unusable most of the engines are...
You wanna play 3000GT, NSX, S2000, R32 on the street? AWD V8. There is no point in using NSX V6 or F20 from S2000 because you can just throw in LS / 3.2 from BMW and not care about the weight distribution in the slightest. Not even talking about the fact how underpowered most engines are compared to V8 etc...
yeah its insane how slow japanese cars are espacially stock in forza games. they handle fine but they got like no power if you tune them for b and a class if you use the stock enigines. and it has been like that for a lot of forza games now. Fords, Ferraris and chevys always seem to be really good in forza. Its the same with nissans and hondas in the GT games, or atleast the older ones. They are ususally so much better then anything else. its either the bias of the developers and i've been starrting to believe that they actually get payed or get the licences really cheap if they make certain brands faster in the game.
I think making tunes a part if the pi level will make players have to pick between a better air filter or suspension set to how you want it
I think the ultimate problem is one faced in many games, there is only one fastest combination of choices. So you are faced with having variety in the outcomes forcing one single choice or allowing a variety of choices which ultimately leads to equal performance among cars. This does not factor in the human element of different driving strengths and weaknesses of course. However, that is not enough to overcome the ultimate problem of there being one single set of choices that is the best. That is a natural consequence of having impactful, meaningful choices.
There are 2 ways to enjoy online racing in FH5, getting an op or tuned car for an easy win, or picking the car that you enjoy and use it with the combination of your skills to win.
hmmm so that was the trick! i've been tuning awd cars with the purpose of making them decent off roading and not too understeery on roads, now i see what i gotta do
W mindset, open to ideas, has own to suggest, but not forcefully pushing it onto people with reasons for and against said argument
U kidding? Right? It has a fkn skull, shure it’s faster!
In my opinion, a really great way to understand what cars work for what and upgrades/tuning is using lower class cars C/B/A because their slow enough that you won’t exceed skill if you’re new to the car. Most of the time tuning can be almost always noticeable and easier to learn what does what
Spot on as far as I'm concerned. So many racing games out there that boast how many cars they have included but if over half of them are basically useless it's pretty much a slap in the face to some of the games most dedicated fans. This is even more devastating to fans of certain car manufacturers or specific car classes if they find that their favorites just can't compete. For instance I'm a huge fan of classic muscle cars and though to me they are such fun to drive I feel like the vast majority of the community is going to struggle getting them to keep up with modern sports cars. I feel like a few tweaks to how the cars are grouped in lobbies could make the game more accessible to a wider variety of the games fans. Like instead of only using the PI class, what if we had lobbies for things like RWD only or cars from a certain era etc. etc. ???
I feel like Jim from The Office is explaining Forza to me and I love it.
one way i see fix the all thing would be to add a stats check to the rating system on top of the ai test,
for each class set a power and P/W ration min max limit and a lateral G min max limit, then set a average stat and some rules like more power = less lateral g and the other way around or more weigh = more power and the other way around etc
the tweak of the front tyres grip for AWD u proposed is a good idea too
but on a personnal note after 15y of forza having the same probleme im tired of tuning and building cars, because for me the most important is good racing balanced racing with every car and i only got this with by hand BoP, and if i have to give up on building for that i would do it, and the variety of driving style would come from the cars not the tuning, the thing is tuning and building in forza has lead to less variety overall because if u want to build a competitve cars they will all handle about the same and even sound the same because of OP engine swaps
i dont really understand why u say adding tuning to the pi calculation would make tuning less important, most people would still downloaded tunes if the guy is good or if they dont have the time to make their own
I don’t mind meta builds in on road racing, but I f*cking hate meta builds on dirt. Why tf is a supercar/hypercar better than actual dirt racing car?
I was comparing SP4’s tunes to mine earlier today. I was surprised how radical his ARB, Spring Rate, Bump and Rebound Stiffness settings were to counter AWD understeering problems. It seemed like a copy paste for all of my AWD cars, instant improvement in lap times. Now I feel like RWD is only relevant when the stock car is already close to its target PI.
it doesn’t matter what car you have, if your fast your gonna beat 80% of the field
Even in simulators, theres setups which, well, game the systems. Thats the limitations of it being games and not real life. There will always be exploits in a physics engine because, in contrast to real life, simulated physics can break down.
Its similar to how you would drive differently in a sim, to how you would drive in real life. Even if the physics were a perfect 1:1 representation of the real world, theres a multitude of reasons why you would probably approach the game differently (such as no crashing being far lower stakes, and the physical toll on your body it might be to brake that late every lap, etc etc).
about your "Even if the physics were a perfect 1:1 representation of the real world". there will always be ways to play the system in racing games when it comes to physics. the reason is just that in real life when something is happening we use numbers to make what we are seeing understandable and feasible for the human mind. so in short we use numbers to relfect reality. while in games its the opposite, we use numbers to create reality so to say. that means if you understand the game mechanics and the math behind it you can create some wild setups that would never work in real life but work in the game cus put simply, the math checks out yo. i doesnt matter how "realistic" your physics engine is. its always gonna be just numbers and calculations.
I think there should be 2 types of lobbies you get put into, much like how GTA sorts players based on their auto aim selection. Have one lobby be for casuals looking for arcade racing. Then, have the true-sim hardcore lobby, where every player MUST have the game set to realistic physics simulation. This mode would also fix in place various aides the cars do or don't have IRL. So let's say you have an old car, and IRL, it doesn't have ABS, TCS, or automatic transmission, these modes will be locked in to reflect said car's real-world attributes/features. Meanwhile, you may come across a modern car that has ABS, TCS, and ONLY comes in automatic. Again, said car will be locked into having those features.
I think that would be pretty cool.
It would also disable any of the other nanny settings like showing braking paths and such. Vehicle speed and mass would be incredibly important when approaching turns, and if hydroplaning can come into play, especially on ice, that would be amazing. IRL, I watched a guy in a 4x4 pickup shoot right into a snowbank at 70mph, because the moron didn't realize hydroplaning doesn't care what you drive, or how knobby your tires are. He ended up high-centering as the snow compacted under his chassis, and I came back around and helped pull him out.
Another thing people don't realize is how quickly you can get stuck off-road. Lemme tell y'all another anecdote: My brother and I were up at the 1,000 yard range at the local shooting facility. That range is not open to the public, only RSOs such as myself, and there's both a magnetic key-locked gate, and a padlock gate. Well, someone not only closed the padlock gate behind us, but they switched the padlock to a new one with a different combination! So here we are, trapped on the side of a desert mountain (in Southeastern WA), and no way around the gate (gate is surrounded by large boulders, then super steep gully walls). So, we climbed back into my brother's truck, a 4x4 with off-road tires, and I suggested we take the emergency fire escape route. Turns out, that route isn't even a real road, no compacted dirt, no gravel, no asphalt, just loose topsoil and sand. We made it all the way down, and then, as we approached the magnetic key gate, the truck hit a small sink-hole, and bam, high-centered. Took us about 40 minutes with two shovels to dig us out and carry over gravel from the main road to put under the tires. Point is, if a lifted 4x4 with off-road tires gets stuck in the desert, imagine trying to drive a street car in the desert.
So in the super hardcore mode, you'd on;y be able to drive off-road reliably with proper tires and lift. Regular tires would have a chance to become stuck, so street cars must be street cars, unless modified into rally cars.
But I'm sure they will never do this, so whatever. It was a good excuse to tell a couple of stories.
Class? There's a whole game, it's called motorsport.
I think that the tune should account for the PI, do not nearly as much as normal parts, I still want meta TUNING to be useful, but I dont want it to be overpowered
I honestly think adding an event flag for drivetrain would do a lot to up the fun factor for people not wanting to AWD swap every car. It'd be really enjoyable to only race against other RWD cars in something like cross-country for example.
The PI system is weird. I’m running drag tires on several of my A-class builds because it DROPS PI but INCREASES GRIP.
Some engine swaps are broken too(LS GT-R is good; 4-rotor RX-7 is not). Maybe go back to only allowing swaps within the same company
I think Drag Tires only increase grip for acceleration though, they seem to make cars understeer horribly
I don't think they should limit the swaps but balance the swaps instead. LS swapped GTR should be as quick as one with RB, that is what the PI was meant to be.
Drag tires do increase grip but even with a good tune they’re hard to drive on circuit races against a car equipped with the proper tires for the track because they can’t maintain the same grip on turns as they do on straights
I always tuned cars to mesh well with my driving style instead of improving the car outright.
There should be a stock only class!
2:07 Hello RUclips lol
Great video! Honestly I don't mind that there are 'meta' tunes. Everyone is free to use them if they want to have a small edge or just use a different car. At the end of the day it mostly comes down to the driver's skill anyway.
Interesting thoughts. I think you're spot on on most if not all. It is an arcade game, so going hyper realism isn't the way. Making tunes and cars diverse should be the goal, but if all things are level and equal - what would the point be? There's a meta game in learning and exploiting the systems. Just like in an rpg as BG2 - part of the fun is to create builds and synergies to overcome the challenge. If all is balanced to perfection - where's the game? Driving skills? I'd get bored of that in a day.
There are flaws that need correcting though, such as the rear wing that needs to go on most cars if you want to keep up. If not balanced out, at least allow minor tuning of the natural wing to make up some of the drawback.
My 2 cents is that none of that matters as long as you can avoid tryhards who exploit the meta, we need invite only session and things like that. This is the main issue right now : it's too complicated to simply good around with your friends in Horizon. I personally don't care about competition, I just want to drive cool cars and build even cooler one
So yeah, basically if you ignore the issue it doesn't exist
I consider myself not bad at racing game (at least in arcade ones). I can say I'm in the average, if not, in the slightly above average players. I went through lots of trouble learning on how to properly tune cars so they do what you want. Most of the time I just focus on the race and don't focus too much on the result. I got FH5 recently and I can say I feel very frustrated as soon as I get in online. Litterally murdered with some having insanes chronos. I'm totally lost tbh but this video gave me a bit of an answer thanks you. I'm using a pad and I'm on Xbox One X.
Very nicely explained :D
Didn't expect the game to run a simulated game everytime I install something^^
Been a while since I tuned a Forza car. Might hop back into it and go golf builds
Yeah i love the idea of making tuning count for PI points and making it as much as possible so that every car that is tuned to a certain PI point is relatively the same speed around a given track, even though i may be seen using one, i HATE meta builds because it takes out all the fun and creativity of horizon and just makes it a Nalak sweat fest!
If tuning effected pi like in Gran Turismo, you’d have things like the SRT Tomahawk exploit from their latest game....basically, the 4 speed Raesar in FH5, but with everything