Solomie Amanuel Agreed. I liked the movie a lot but I feel like Marvel was trying way to hard to get the audience to actually like Thor. I hope in the future Taika Waititi eases off on the humor when he starts working on the sequel.
This is why I like marvel fans. They don't go around acting like marvel movies are a masterpiece that nobody understands or gets. They admit the flaws and have a good time anyway.
Zach Gerrity Idk which marvel fans your talking to, i’ve met plenty of marvel apologists that can’t handle criticism, some of them being friends of mine even.
I enjoyed Thor Ragnarok but I agree that some jokes or plot twists felt a bit redundant. One of my main problems is that they spent so long dragging out the secret identity of the mysterious champion, when every trailer and promo for the movie told us already that it was going to be Hulk. Maybe that moment would've worked great if it was a genuine GOTCHA! but it meant every time characters kept trying to hype up the mystery you sit there like, yeah, we get it, move on. I feel like that's an example where the marketing is working at cross purposes with what the director was trying to achieve.
LilDeuceDeuce I m completely opposite, knowing it was hulk made me even more excited. I enjoy more"the journey to that moment" than the moment itself. I m more excited for the setup of a surprise or plot twist than the twist itself.
Yeah. And to add on to that, the fact that the audience in the arena know that the Hulk is nearly invincible but most moviegoers know that Thor can go toe-to-toe with him made the anticipation for the fight that much better.
Absolutely, I agree with you, the way it builds up to it certainly seems like that's what Taika Waititi originally intended it to be like and the Marvel marketing machine just robbed him (and us) of that moment. That said, I think the secret was out quite early on, and in this day and age, it'd b pretty hard to keep that kind of casting under wraps, so they just seemed to not bother in the end and just let that character's presence in the film be widely known and used as a drawcard to get you into the theatre to see it.
i think marvel & dc both have pretty big problems with tone but they go about it differently (marvel tries to interrupt dramatic moments w/ jokes, dc lets the dramatic moment stand and follows with a tasteless-feeling one-liner)
completly agree, but i think that people end up enjoying marvel movies because at least they laugh at the end of the moment (even though they take away the drama from it) while with dc movies you're left feeling almost uncomfortable at how serious they TRY to be... my opinion anyway...
yeah! when someone gets shot in suicide squad & the heroes follow it up with a joke it doesn't feel like you should be laughing. it's like the writers include the quip cause that's how action movies work now instead of thinking through the scene
I agree! I feel like DC takes themselves way too seriously whereas Marvel doesn't take themselves serious at all (ya know, with of exceptions of course). I've always preferred Marvel over DC but it has been hard for me to get excited about some of the newer films because of the borderline cheesiness that is starting to become more prevalent. I will say I was pleasantly surprised by Thor Ragnarock though, especially not being a huge fan of Thor personally. I think Marvel can keep its quirks and jokes and still make a heartfelt/meaningful story, there's just got to be a better balance. I think the first Iron Man movie did a good job of that.
I hope Black Panther doesn't fall victim to this. Even Winter Soldier struck the right balance between fun and serious when it wanted to, and became the best movie (in my eyes at least) from the MCU. what Marvel does now almost feels as if they're embarassed to be sincere out of fear of being made fun of, but end up being the joke themselves. DC is the opposite, sometimes they're wayyy too serious, but with Wonder Woman, they found a great balance.
Nolan Dean Yes I do hope black Panther is more like Winter Soldier and less like the more comedy heavy movies. I love the more light hearted movies but Black Panther deserves a more serious tone especially as it's the lead up to Infinity War
I totally agree with what you're saying, but on the other hand, every time that New Zealand rock guy talked, I was in stitches ahahahaha too funny but yeah, the balance was a little bit off in this one
No but see, Korg (rock guy) isn't at all a problem. Jokes aren't a problem. It's the way they always take precedence over any serious storytelling that just becomes annoying, at least to me.
Korg's scenes were some of the funniest in the movie but at the same time I don't think he's a good character and Meek was essentially just an extension of Korg's jokes. That's pretty disappointing for me since I really like both in comics especially Planet Hulk which this movie totally wastes the potential of.
With the whole pushing the joke too far aspect, like repeating of Thor spinning on the chain thing, I think it's possible that it's a very Australian/New Zealand type of humour. Like self-deprecating, not taking yourself seriously, pushing it as far as it will go type of humour is I believe very typical of Australian/New Zealand comedies in general. I know that I found the film much funnier than several friends of mine who are not Australian did. Ragnarok was always going to be a comedy tho, as soon as the director was announced it was going to be a comedy, and personally I think the Thor storyline needed it, as he was too unapproachable and frankly boring before. I didn't like either of the previous Thor movies. I do hope that Infinity Wars is going to take itself more seriously tho.
I kind of agree with you here, about it being an Aussie/Kiwi thing. I watched in an Australian cinema and there was no sort dip in the energy at the second spin like Jack experienced. Everyone still found it funny because it's just making fun of himself again and again, which is very much our humour here. But could be wrong, dunno.
You're right, it definitely has the Australian/NZ self deprecating humour going on- even to the point of quoting 'The Castle' - which is considered a classic movie in Australia but I would doubt anyone from another country would have picked up on the joke or even heard of The Castle. I think we're used to an almost over the top amount of self deprecating humour, so I understand why some of it may have fallen flat elsewhere.
I was about to say this before I saw this comment. I think it’s interesting that the Australian comedy style is just not understood in the US. Almost every criticism like this to do with the way the jokes in the film are handled or “go to far” I feel I can dismiss by saying “look mate this is our culture and it’s fucking hilarious, maybe you don’t get it all the time but that’s ok we don’t always get your sense of humour” Taika has been seen in interviews talking about how he took jokes too far purposefully and then taking them a step further, and it’s perfect.
Jack, you are one of the only RUclipsrs who doesn’t just pander to what’s popular and you just do what you enjoy and talk about what your passionate about. I really respect this and think that you are a really great role model who shows that you don’t have do what everyone does to be popular. For this, I say thank you Jack Howard!!!
I agree with your point, BUT I think that it’s actually less of a problem with Thor: Ragnarok. Not that it isn’t massively there, but my emotional attachment to Thor and Asgard was already well out of the window after the first two Thor movies, and I liked that they played into that and just had fun. Guardians balances the two perfectly, but I think they’d have had to almost ruin the film with sentmentality to make me care about Thor
Definitely the best Marvel film this year. Guardians and Thor couldn't baleance the comedy with drama, but Spider-Man did it excellently. Black Panther looks like a much more serious film, and I hope Infinity War manages to strike the perfect balance.
This is the most honest and accurate review I've seen. I also didn't like a few other things like, the fact that they made the destruction of Asgard THOR'S FUCKING HOME, into a joke for Korg. I felt like that took too much away from the scene. I should've felt something in that moment, pain, loss or whatever. It wasn't there. Ragnarok does this a lot, it pulls you out of several moments for slapstick comedy and I don't like it. But it genuinly is a fun movie that actually made me give a shit about Thor.
I don't remember who originally commented this but they basically wanted two scenes which were emotional: Odin's death and when Asgard was blown up. The first one I could sort of understand why they didn't linger on to for too long seeing that it was just the beginning of the movie but I totally agree with you. It would have been a nice shift in tone if they stayed serious while the whole blowing up happened. They could go back to joking in the next scene no problem
I get that the director wanted to do a light hearted comedy, but I think he needed to realize dedicated fans also love the emotional arcs in marvel so we care about the fictional characters.SPOILERS: I did appreciate the sentimental end when Thor would have given Loki a hug if he actually was there and he WAS!!!
To think Ragnarok was supposed to be about the End of Days for the Gods, the darkest moment and it's like no let's make jokes and let's ourselves create Ragnarok. Oh and btw, no Asgardians were hurt in the making of this movie. This could have been the ultimate fight but it wasn't.
People keep getting the wrong end of the stick with Thor: Ragnarok and it's starting to become frustrating. Marvel Studios enjoys trying to blend genres together, at least they say they do. Everyone raves about how winter soldier was 'A superhero film but it was a political thriller.' Thor Ragnarok was a comedy film. As soon as I heard Taika Waititi was directing, that basically confirmed it. They were doing a superhero film but it is also a comedy. Not just having lighthearted scenes and a few jokes like most Marvel films, a solid comedy start to finish. I think people need to think differently when watching it. Watch it as if its a comedy.
totally agree. and I generally enjoyed it so much. i also didn't really expect the jokes coming all the time, but that might be cause i'm not as much a film critic as Jack.. idk. in fact, the only joke that sort of annoyed me was when they made fun of "the sun's going down"
James Court that's actually a fresh take. Knowing who directs each film and what the trailers include should determine what genre film the audience should go in expecting to watch.
I agree. I really like that they're stepping out of the superhero genre and giving it more depth and nuance. It isn't just a super hero film with another big bad to defeat. It's more than that - it's a character driven comedy that propels Thor's development forward. Like... It's both. Just like the comics have so often been.
Ragnarok was definitely written for Australian/New Zealand audiences. The entire cinema was laughing the entire film, but I did think it might not play as well in other countries. Korg’s “yeah nah”s and “sweet as bro” we’re so good. The self deprecating jokes and the jokes that aren’t so funny but just keep going to the point that that’s what’s funny about it idk I think it’s the style of comedy that Taika Waititi is comfortable in and he absolutely nailed.
Due to Marvel Comics style I don’t mind the quips and jokes in the moves, in fact I’d be surprised if they weren’t there. Also Thor: Ragnarok was advertised and promised to the audience as a comedy, i think this was mainly because the next couple of films we’re getting from the studio are going to be darker in tone. However, I think your right that it can become predictable and can make the audience suffer a bit of “joke fatigue”.
Now that you mentioned it, I realised it is one of Marvel’s problem. Before watching this video, I couldn’t pinpoint what exactly this whole thing is but I did feel that some jokes didn’t hit me as hard as it supposed to because I expected it. Hmmmm... That being said, I do agree that Ragnarok is really fun and I really enjoyed watching it. I’m planning to watch it again tomorrow. (It’s not everyday you’ll find me willing to pay TWICE to see the same film. Hahahaha.)
Here we are 6 years after this video, and it FINALLY feels like mainstream audiences are starting realize this. It’s a shame it took this long, but I’m glad it’s happening.
I completely agree with these points, I've been feeling, sort of since ant man, that marvel are getting too smart for themselves, like the way in which they break the norm (their anti-chliché, if you will) is becoming predictable. What's wrong with a classic superhero movie every once in a while?
The thing is marvel movies are actually comedy first and action/drama second. That's why it's worked so well other than the fact that marvel movies are just made brilliantly. You strip away the brand "marvel" from the movies and it'd still be enjoyable because it excels at just being a movie, you know with great script, character depth, coherence and a plot that actually makes sense. And honestly i don't mind the jokes at all, because like i said it's a comedy movie. They make great sentimental/drama as well. The end bits of civil war had me feeling really sad. Yes it's not perfect but it's not cheap or trash or half-assed either. I'm just glad that marvel puts in time and effort and gives the directors creative control and freedom with their movies. And all the while giving the fans what they want as well. So yea it's a win win situation.
The better subversion for Bruce jumping out of the plane would be for him to land as Hulk, look powerful, only to cut to wide and see he's ripped through his pants. It was given multiple setups earlier - first, naked Hulk and then Bruce commenting on how tight Tony's pants are. And since most of his following fight was half-submerged in water, they don't need to worry about goofily censoring him. With a little more planning they could have had their cake and eaten it too. (The cake in this context is Hulk's penis.)
Thank you, this is exactly my problem. It seems to me like Ragnarok was so busy being hilarious they undermined every single halfway serious moment. Like, in the Avengers, Loki and Thor get interrupted in a funny way too but before that they have a few minutes (!) of genuinely epic and touching dialogue. They get room for the characters to evolve and to make them and their relationship relevant. In Ragnarok they interrupt everything after 20 seconds.
Best example of this I think (and only real thing I disliked about Ant-Man) is when Hope and Pym are talking about Hope’s mother and being all sentimental and nice and all, and it’s a big emotional moment, and Paul Rudd’s character just butts in, can’t remember what he said, something along the lines of, “This is great, you two are breaking down walls. Oh I ruined the moment, didn’t I?” And we just didn’t need that, it wasn’t particularly funny, it was just a bit... meh... it could have been funny, but I think the emotional moment would have been nicer.
The two examples you gave was not the case for me. Everyone laughed at my cinema just as much, if not more when he spun the second time around and was like "I'm not even doing this. It's doing it itself". And I did NOT expect Banner to just fall on the bridge. I actually did expect Hulk to show up. But that's just me, and my cinema
I totally agree with what you explain in this video. I started disliking it in the more recent films. I hated the scene in Dr. Strange with the cape. I hated the scene in GoTG2 when Nebula expresses her wishes to kill Thanos and the other guy makes a dumb remark, and I felt very betrayed by Thor: Ragnarok. I felt like they got it right in Black Panther though.
I haven't seen many of the recent Marvel movies, but I have seen Guardians of the Galaxy vol. 2, and this is kind of how I felt about that. I couldn't put my finger on why it didn't quite resonate with me like the first one did until you just said "predictable subversiveness".
One of my favourite films of all time is Pacific Rim (not Marvel, I know, but hear me out) I love that film because it's so unapologetically corny. It follows the rule of cool and doesn't joke about it or make an excuse for it, and in the process a badass sci-fi action film was made! Stacker's "Cancelling the apocalypse" speech never fails to get me pumped. It's so heroic and...badass? That's the only word I can think of, badass! If the sequel goes down the joky path, which I doubt, it would dissapoint me greatly
I completely agree!! I thought the same exact thing throughout the movie. I thought the hulk part was endearing, and I was a little annoyed when it didn’t work. I did think it redeemed itself a little later on though when he actually saw the video of Nat. But not enough, if that makes sense. And yeah Bruce jumping out at the end was predictable. One of my favorite things about the marvel movies is the humor, but still being able to emotionally connect with the characters. But this one, it just felt like every character was a comedian and they were all making fun of their problems. Which tbh relatable, but it was too much. And they did make Banner touch on that, which is weird? When he was trying to tell Thor, like “don’t you understand, I might stay the hulk forever, this isn’t a joke!” But Thor was still making light of the situation. It’s as if they knew what they were doing
This sums up my opinions pretty perfectly, with Banner landing on the bridge being the perfect example. It feels like they sometimes are afraid of trying to be cool because they'll get made fun of for trying too hard. I would love to have Hulk land on the wolf and just be bad ass. Another issue I have when I look at Thor in the context of other MCU films is how the tone and character conflicts with the rest of his appearances. For the most part, he's had his funny fish out of water moments but generally be somewhat serious, but in Ragnarok he felt just a bit incompetent, or that he was a walking joke machine at times. Still the best Thor movie by leaps and bounds, they just could have dialled down the jokes like jack said.
I didn't really like Thor Ragnarok, i thought it tried too hard to be guardians of the galaxy. I mean, yeah it was funny and all, but i thought it lost a bit of its purpose as a superhero movie, it was like the movie was already a "scary movie" type parody of itself. I love stupid jokes, i love comedy and there is totally a place for that in a super hero movie, but it just takes so much away from the "real" moments in it, just like you said, you can't really connect to it.
You should check out What Writers Can Learn From Wonder Woman. It discussed the issue with insincere emotional moments in Marvel films, I think you'd appreciate it.
Oh one hand I agree with you about the joke predictability thing- banner on the bridge was a great example- however, for me that didn’t make the emotional moments fall at all flat. That scene in the elevator with Thor and Loki, where Thor says ‘Loki I thought the world of you’ like, I really felt something, I was getting that tight feeling in my chest of ‘oh’ but then a minute or so later I was cackling at ‘get help’ but I didn’t necessarily feel like that contrast diminished the emotional action for me. I actually thought it worked subversively, and even at the end where you end up basically laughing as the planet blows up, I thought that was kinda a cool way to lighten it, and they did really spend the whole movie building to stopping that from happening. That being said the second time I saw it wasn’t as fun and I didn’t feel like it really held up to a second viewing well because of the predictability issues you mentioned. Also I’m not a film critic like you jack so maybe I’m just not as attuned. I do think that the subversivness becoming predictable trope is 100% a problem in the wider marvel movies and I found it annoying in guardians of the galaxy too, I just think there was a lot of it that wasn’t quite so predictable in Thor: Ragnarok
Totally agree. These are people jumping around in costumes and yeah, that's an inherently funny thing, but making light of that shouldn't compromise the sincerity that can/should lie at the heart of these stories
I saw the film with two friends that aren't superhero fans. They found it amazing; I think because they just saw it as a comedy film. I was pretty disappointed. I thought it was going to be a superhero film, but I left in the same mindset that I leave comedies... it was rather disappointing.
I do totally agree there Jack. It felt like I wasn't allowed to feel anything other than humour, I wanted to feel sad when third entire group of friends were brutally murdered, or when Odin passes away, but I got none of that. Side bar, I much preferred all of the scenes on the other planet (I'm sorry I forgot the name!!) and it felt like all the rest of it was almost shoehorned in? As if the story was pitched as just the section with Thor trying to get off the planet because he doesn't want to be a slave - because, duh - and the producers said that they wanted the main plot to take place on asgard with hela as the villain and just kind of told the writers to "make it work".
I wish they hadn't ruined that moment where Thor is trying to calm the Hulk down because it was genuinely sweet. Also, that bit in Avengers where Black Widow does it was bad because 1. it was sort of lame and 2. it was such a weird reinforcement of gender roles like, the only woman in the group is the one who can be soft and calm Hulk down with her womanly charm? get outta here. She was never sweet before that, so it was kind of out of character too. BUT, the fact that Thor, god of thunder and super macho realness, could potentially be soft and sweet and calm the Hulk down, now THAT would have been subversive!! There didn't need to be an "it didn't work" joke to surprise us because if it HAD worked it would have been waaaaay more surprising. It was so close to being new and exciting but they pulled back like "haha jk, Thor and Hulk are both big straight macho men of course it didn't work". That was the biggest example but all throughout the movie they make jokes that diminish their potential friendship (i.e. Thor lying to Hulk and Bruce about which one he prefers just so that he can get what he wants). By the end of the movie, you don't get the feeling that they were actually friends. Heck, we didn't even find out if Bruce is gonna be able to come back at all or if the Hulk just took over forever, and Thor (who knew this could happen) doesn't even try to find out. He doesn't give a shit. The thing I love the most about stories is the characters and the relationships they form. That's why I liked Loki in this movie, who is still a shithead but Thor still cares about him anyway. But they really dropped the ball with Hulk's and Thor's friendship (in Bruce's words, "I don't think you're my friend at all")
I really agree, Thor was my favorite, I really don't know why. I think it was just because back during his origin it was the most different compared to others. So I came into Ragnarok excited to finally see Thor again and see his story and while I enjoyed the movie and had fun, I just kinda left the movie with a feeling that I can only describe as "What's the point". I just watched movies with characters that I loved but I didn't really understand why I felt like I should love them so much. I didn't really understand why I felt that way until I watched this video, thanks Jack.
I WAS JUST SAYING THIS TO MY FRIEND YESTERDAY! and honestly, the more mcu movies come out (and movies of that like), the more i start to wonder if maybe that's why many of my friends are so amazed by the (f.e) 80s movies that i show them. bc even if they're cheesy and often absolutely absurd, at least they are genuine? they take themselves serious and so, as an audience, you can take it serious too. you can sink into a story about a boy who is best friends with an old doctor and ends up inventing rock'n'roll, and still hold your breath and sit on the edge of your chair at every action scene bc you know that it is okay to be genuinely plunged into this story. what is lacking in SO many modern (hollywood) movies (next to proper stakes) is the permission to feel. whenever we do, whoop, turns out they were just trying to tease us. or fool us. or even mock us for even DARING to think we're allowed to genuinely feel something about the scene they're presenting us. it's like moffat's sherlock and his 6thousand plotturns that eventually just leave you cool and bored bc if they want you to feel like a fool for thinking there's an actual plot or emotion, then, hey, i'm not gonna be invested in that crap. no wonder our generation is so fucked up if the most seen humour in media is self-mocking. hell, sometimes i hear about the cutest romantic stories and i hear myself make a cynic or sarcastic comment straight out of a bad seth rogen movie. for movies like deadpool that's perfectly okay, bc theyre born out of the premise that "nothing is real, art is still dead" -bo. we don't go see deadpool to be emotionally touched. but even movies like hancock who start out with this self-aware humour of 'haha u expected a hero now u get a drunkard' eventually have their heart-piercing moments of genuine emotion. hell, look at the edgar wright movies. funny in so many points. but not in this CONSTANTLY tiring subversive way. moments of depth stay moments of depth and moments of weight stay moments of weight. no constant mood drops and pokes at the 'haha dumb audience for thinking this is actually gonna be a good scene thats gonna mark or even change you', like sOME MOVIES. sgh. anyway. my point is. we're all gonna end up emotionally crippled bc of men in tights, and jack is, once again, right.
Funnily enough, I think Deadpool still took the time to make us feel. There are instances where the jokes stop and we just feel what Wade Wilson is feeling at a particular moment.
I literally watched this movie for the first time yesterday. I didn't necessarily predict the jokes. But I definitely got a sense that cinematic moments were being sacrificed for jokes. Though Banner hitting the bridge was shocking I more would have preferred seeing him transform mid air and grab the wolf.
Totally agree! I think the second Guardians of the Galaxy movie did a great job with the balance of comedy to serious moments, and Thor kind of...didn't? Like, I love Thor with all my heart, but a lot of the stuff just fell flat. Except for the rock guy -- he's my favorite. The one part that was sweet and that I don't think they did ruin with a stupid joke was the ending, when Loki walks into Thor's room, and Thor throws that cap at him. That had been done before, two or three times, and it was getting old. But when it happened the last time and Loki actually caught it, it really struck a chord with me and I almost started crying. But yes! I totally agree with you.
Couldn't have put it better..... I totally agree. They still need the subversion to make the film feel grounded. But they need to find a middle ground.
I agree. There's a scene in one of the newer Black Panther trailers where a character says "Try not to freeze" or something and he responds with "I never freeze" and then jumps off something, and I keep expecting a joke because of the precedent of the last few films, but he just does a cool jump and landing and just the lack of a joke's quite surprising. I think I did get invested in the dramatic/emotional scenes though in a way, Thor and Loki's relationship was less emphasised but I feel it had definitely developed since the last one. At least it wasn't like Guardians 2 (Which I really liked) where every single dramatic moment ended with a joke like clockwork, whereas there are at least a couple in Ragnarok that are allowed to just breathe.
I agree with everything you said except the part about the opening gag with the chain turning. I saw Thor twice and both times the joke actually got funnier for the audience.
i always liked that Marvel seemed to be a bit more humorous about telling their stories than most others. "superheroes" is one of my favourite genres in films, but i don't like it when they're done overly action-y and serious (ex. Man of Steel), so i always appreciated Marvel's more light yet upbeat approach to them. but i definitely agree with what you're saying, they're far overdoing it now and turned it into a big re-appearing stunt rather than a way of storytelling. i love Marvel's characters, i care about them and am emotionally invested. so though i like a good laugh, sometimes i do just want to sit there and cry my eyes out at a scene!
I love taika waititi but I totally agree with the part about how there can't really be a sentimental moment cuz I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop so I become emotionally guarded
General idea is on point BUT that "Sun's getting low" moment is a bad example...THAT was one of the best/funniest moments to me and was perfectly set up. It was Thor clumsily trying out a method Black Widow could only pull off with Hulk, in effort to try to calm his needed ally down. I don't think it should have been viewed as a "dramatic" moment turned comedic....it was comedic from the start and while I called it that Hulk was gonna yoke him around LOL it still delivered to me. I thought it was a brilliant callback to the last time we saw Hulk.
I feel like the Marvel joke problem is the one aspect of the films that puts me off. Avengers Assemble started this revolution with jokes in the MCU, with Iron Man 3, Guardians 1 and Ant-Man. Following, but Ant-Man became the movie were I was like, ok, now there are too many jokes. Doctor Strange sort of had this promlem, with Guardians 2, Homecoming and Ragnorok truly taken advantage. Iron man 1, The Incredible Hulk, Iron Man 2, Thor, the first avenger, the dark world, Winter solider, civil war and Black Panther don’t really have this problem. My favorite MCU movies are the ones that aren’t cluster with jokes, I.e, Winter Soilder, Civil War. But yea, Marvel after Infinity War need to find a balance.
I completely agree. If Marvel wants to go the comedy route they should stick to it in the GOTG films and maybe a few other ones. If they add all these subversive jokes in every film (which they haven’t thus far) it’ll get pretty stale. I loved Thor: Ragnarok and I know that Taika Waititi made it a comedy to revive the Thor franchise, but I just hope they don’t add a whole bunch of comedic moments into a serious film like Black Panther and Infinity War.
SPOILERS COMING UP! Totally agree. By the end of the movie they had their emotional climax, when Asgard is destroyed, I actually felt it, even though I had previously never cared much about Asgard. The built up to that moment was very well put together. Only to be ruined by a joke by Korg. The joke didn't work because it felt like the writers were not sure if the sequence worked emotionally. Like they were unsure whether I was emotionally invested or not. And so they made a joke in case I wasn't. But I kinda was. And the joke immediately pulled me out of that genuine connection and pushed me away.
I adore the MCU. Homecoming and Guardians Vol. 2 exceeded my expectations in every way. But Thor: Ragnarok? Good lord, it was a mess. Exemplified everything wrong with Marvel, which they had (up to now) been doing a good job of refining.
Am I the only one who thought that Bruce was certainly gonna land as the Hulk on the bridge? I certainly did, especially since it happened in age of Ultron when Black widow kicked him down a precipice and when he told Valkyrie "You wanted to know who am I?...well you're about to find out!" The audience was expecting this cool badass, expected hero moment and they did the opposite and the comedy delivered!! Also: when the big wolf creature went to attack the helpless civilians none of us were expecting him to be jolted and pulled backwards.........revealed later to be by "The Hulk!" That's fantastic writing right there!
I loved ragnarock. But especially when banner hit that bridge i was hella confused. I did not expect him to hit the bridge. It kinda killed the moment and i thought he died. Banner did hit at a high velocity as a human. But they had their moments.
Completely agree! I saw Ragnarok recently and whilst I enjoyed it it did feel as though something was missing and in hindsight I think it was emotional attachment. A lot of what could have been emotional/gripping moments of character development were lost in the punchline and I feel that in many ways taking every comedic opportunity devalues the moments of genuine humour. Of course self aware jokes are part of what makes the marvel movies great but I just wish they'd take themselves seriously a little bit more sometimes - at least when sincerity would pay off more than a joke.
Good point bro, Otoh, you can also see the instant comedy as backup plan in case the story or plot or character or emotional scenes may not work. I mean, if the story may not be good, if the film has plot holes, but the comedy is good, audience may skip past all that and enjoy the movie as they laughed. We all know that we give lower standard in terms of story or plot or whatever else in comedy or horror movies as long as the comedy hits and the horror frightens.
I totally agree, those were mine and my boyfriend's feelings exactly when we saw Ragnarok. I find it weird cause a lot of people I know keep talking about how it's the best Marvel movie ever and I'm just like, the first Thor alone was better But hey, that's just my opinion
I agree completely. As a comedy, Ragnarok was great. I wasn't able to put a name on why it felt a little awkward but you summarized it perfectly! However, I also feel the MCU as a whole has to be balanced because Ragnarok is just one movie in a studio that's already put out over a dozen movies in the same overarching storyline. Especially with Black Panther (which I believe will be rather serious) and Infinity War (which I'm guessing will be emotionally devastating) coming out in the future, Ragnarok had to provide some fun. However, I feel as if the "Asgard blowing up" scene should have been more emotional. But I also feel as though the scenes with Hela ravaging and destroying Asgard were emotional. Heimdall protecting the refugees, Thor being able to see the state of his homeland, the people that went down fighting- those were the parts that made me emotionally invested in the movie. They don't actually stick out much in the first viewing, though (I watched the movie three times, haha!). It's also that we weren't really invested in Asgard in the first place? They seemed rather prissy and stuck-up in the first two movies and there was no real connection with them so I guess it's destruction wouldn't have added emotion. I mean, if Earth blew up, we'd be devastated, which is an understatement. But we also have a deeply personal connection with the planet. I would have liked to see something like that on the refugees' part- the people's reactions hurt more than the planet being destroyed. Also, this comment is sort of all over the place but I hope I got my point across.
I started watching this thinking i was gonna be mad and then jack said the bit about banner falling out of the plane and not turning into the hulk and I totally got it because I knew that was gonna happen whilst it was happening also. Thor was a comedy rather than an action, thriller, comic movie which it really could've been. I agree. I cared less about the characters by the end of the film. When Asgard fell apart where normally I would've cried (cause am a big baby) I couldn't have gave two shits which kind of disconnected me from that moment. Love the film, but your criticisms were bang on.
I think spiderman homecoming had a nice mix. Moments like Happy in the bathroom being interrupted are subversions, but the moment of Peter lifting the rubble, or him in the car with vulture are legitimate
Spider man homecoming did a good job mixing the comedy but making it serious.I was invested with the villains dialogue because Peter was actually frightened and scared.He didn't talk over him.
I loved Ragnarok just because it seemed more like a character film than a genre film. Like, the Superhero genre was just a backdrop for the character interactions. But then I've always loved parody and humour.
I definitely agree that they need balance. I loved Thor Ragnarok, but I also loved The Winter Soldier, which is probably the most earnest film of the franchise so far. There's a bit of discontinuity of tone between different series - the Captain America films go earnest, but I suppose that's easier because so is the character. Spiderman Homecoming did it well, but that had a lot to do with the age of the protagonist. Most of the other protags are supposed to be ultra-21st century cynics, so they're sort of stuck doing the subversive jokes - there was no way Stephen Strange was going to take magic seriously.
It's interesting that so many people said this, because to me some of the humor was a direct result of this being in such an outlandish place--literally out of our world. I appreciated the fact that Thor, Loki, and so many of the other "beings" in Thor: Ragnarok were seemingly light-hearted, whether they were or not. Many of them had seen and done so much crap for thousands of years. There was something very alien about the film, which I loved.
your argument is sound and valid, but, only if you don't take into account 1. its a Thor movie (with regards to the subversion of expectations in Ragnarok ) and so plays into the previous history with Thor as both a character in the cinematic universe and comics, as well as Thor as a filmic trilogy. 2.That the addition of levity actually goes some way to humanise Thor and as such helps make him a more relatable character than he had been before. 3. That there are actual moments of brevity. Ones that feel stronger because they build upon jokes or previous humorous moments. Skurge's moment of self sacrifice actually playing into one of the earliest jokes in the film. Or building a character for the Hulk through moments that are both funny and help to highlight his humanity. Like a temperamental child with friends. We laugh because we recognise the anger, not as huger rage monster but scared, lonely, and built from a love. "You're not the god of hammers" is at all times both a joke and not a joke. As for the other Marvel movies, aside from the guardians series, most have very little humour. At all times they feel like elements that build each characters humanity and help ground them a little more. Doctor Strange's clothes are ridiculous, if he doesn't naturally address it someone else probably will. Peter, Tony, Scott all have personalities where humour or one liners are there to cover for nerves or weaknesses. They do or say intentionally or unintentionally funny things as a consequence of their personalities and the situations they are in. Captain America: Winter Soldier isn't remembered as an overtly comical film, but the "on your left" opening is essentially a jokey moment. It's just not played overly so. For what it's worth I suspect that after 17 films and with the Avengers Infinity war opener coming up. Things are about to become quite a bit more weighty and this string of more light hearted fare is a deliberate plan to allow some breathing room before things become a lot less laugh out loud. I don't think we should see a total removing of the universes humorous leanings, but much much less.
I watched this in a small theater and it was really amazing how much that affected my enjoyment of the film. The jokes got chuckles but it definitely didn’t have a “laugh track” level of enthusiasm and it made almost everything fall flat.
Couldn't agree more! The Avengers was one of my favorite cinema experiences ever... three times. The humor was PERFECT. Thor Ragnarok didn't come anywhere near that, pretty much all the jokes felt forced and predictable.
couldnt agree more, the first time this hit me was in Doctor Strange where every moment that could be heartfelt and nice was immediately ruined by a joke, eg. when the ancient one dies and then doctor strange has this nice little moment with Rachel McAdams and the scene ends with him looking into a mirror and crying, the scene couldnt have ended there and it would have been really nice....but then they had to completely ruin it by making the cape wipe away the tears and have Doctor Strange be all like "hey quite it", just completely switched the tone of the scene and does not fit at all
I agree with the bit about Thor doing the "suns going down" thing because when he first started doing it I thought it was adorable but then when it turned into a joke it just made the whole line seem even more cheesy than I already thought it was. I laughed, but I get what you're saying.
Fortunately, Black Panther is next, and I think Black Panther will be a very serious film like Iron Man or the Winter Soldier. Because Feige has been very respectful to the characters and T'Challa is NOT a snarky joker (Neither was Thor but hey, they tried twice and it didn't work).
Thor has been a funny character in the past, just depends on what you're reading but they definitely went for a golden age Thor with Ragnarok and it worked best. As for Black Panther, he has never been funny as far as I'm aware, but his supporting cast has (E.g Agent Ross).
This is why I love homecoming so much it lets itself be sincere you care so much about peter Parker especially the scene under the rubble I don’t think we get anything like that in many marvel movies yet it was still probably one of the funniest ones
I agree with this completely! I loved the film because it was such a Taika-Kiwi film and I'm from New Zealand so that was incredible, but almost every joke I called beforehand, especially Bruce jumping out of the ship. I think even the scene at the beginning seemed to be the SAME shot, of Thor spinning round ? Or at least so similar that I as a film student went "ah they've used the same shot twice that's not great". Overall great movie, but I agree with you about the jokes.
I'm a bit late on this but I really loved Thor Ragnarok and didn't really tire of the subversion of expectations and jokes because I don't really watch all the Marvel movies so I'm not really used to it. I think I like it also because I watched it from the perspective of someone who wanted to see a cool 80s inspired Sci Fi - Fantasy and thats exactly what I got with some great jokes thrown in.
Ragnarok was the first Thor movie that to me didn't feel like a chore to sit through. Thor in the avengers was great, but those first two movies were hard to watch for me. I do also feel like if you don't care about the characters yet after seeing this many movies, you aren't going to. Maybe it's different if this is your first entry into the universe, but for most of us, you either care about Thor or you don't, and it's almost too late to change that
Can't say I'm entirely surprised at this, given that the first trailer I saw for Ragnarok was with Thor hanging upside down and the freeze frame "Yup that's me bet you're wondering how I ended up in this situation" line, which felt completely tonally off for me. I also enjoyed the two previous Thor films more or less, precisely because they did take themselves seriously at least _some_ of the time, the times when it mattered. That gave the films a little heart in my opinion.
100% agree with you on Ragnarok. There was a ton of the raving about how funny it was, but I really thought they took the humor too far. And I didn't like how callously and unceremoniously Volstagg and Fandral of The Warriors Three' were dispatched. So much death and destruction got glossed over for cheap gags that I found it off-putting. In the end, I felt like Wattiti could not have cared less about these characters, which makes me not want him involved with future projects.
I totally agree with you! I loved the jokes in Ragnarok and I laughed at most of them but I agree about the emotional detachment. You referenced the "Suns going down" gag and my god they ripped the piss out of that. It just kept going on. There completely needs to be a balance between the jokes and the emotional moments. One I'm glad they didn't make into a joke is *SPOILER ALERT* at the end where Loki catches the ball (or whatever it is that Thor throws!) and says "I'm here" I wasn't expecting that and it was nice! More of that Marvel, please!
I think this is wonderfully well put and so far, you're just about the ONLY RUclipsr I've found who I can relate to on all my film & tv opinions! Keep it up.
If you're impressed with this channel, you might be even more impressed with the channel entitled "Just Write." That guy made pretty much the same point about Doctor Strange and he has a lot of more interesting things to say about movies.
I really agree with this analysis. I don't like people just saying "There's too many jokes in Marvel movies!" because I don't think that is something that should hinder a movie from that franchise, but the point with subversion fatigue I think is perfect. And while I too really enjoyed Thor: Ragnarok (probably my favourite Thor movie, because I liked the revamp), I think that subversion fatigue is why it's still just a solidly good movie for me, and not an AMAZING movie.
I totally agree with you. Thor Ragnarok was the first film where it really stood out. I call this the 'Deadpool' filter. It felt like they wanted to use that same kind of humour, because that's popular. I honestly think Deadpool 2 will feel weird now. The strong part about Deadpool was that they made fun of typical superhero movies. Now that the movies do that themselves, there's nothing left to parody. It felt like I was watching a human trying to be a hero, instead of an actual god being a god (like, why all the fuss about not touching his hair? It has never been a problem before)
I think Movie Bob does a good job at explaining why Ragnarok works so well and why the jokes that follow the serious moments actually add to the movie and the overall ideas in the flick.
when they first announced 'Thor: Ragnarok' I honestly thought that it would be a more 'serious' movie because it revolves around the destruction of Asgard. I loved the new Thor movie, it was an improvement to the previous ones but it would have been exciting to see a serious approach to the storyline. It's good though when you see it as a comedy movie
I think you're right. The only problem with the idea that Marvel shound evolve it's sense of humor is that the formula is working pretty well for them. I really don't have faith that studios will take too many risks. For example I don't think they'd want Taika Waititi to direct the next Thor but I don't think they'd let him write it. Marvel has been pushing boundries a bit over the years but I don't think we should expect a major change any time soon. They'd have to work their way towards that over the next few years. I also give most of Marvels faults a pass because I don't hold studio movies to super high standards.
I do agree with this with Marvel in general but not so much with Ragnarok. I personally went into Ragnarok with more of a comedy rather than marvel mindset, I was ready for a Taika Waititi film & that's what I got. The cinema I was in laughed at pretty much every gag and I will say that can be infectious, but I did find it genuinely really funny and I came out with a grin on my face. I think as it's the 3rd Thor film, that's why they got away with so many gags. There's been 2 Thor films and all his other appearances in the mcu where we've got the time to be sentimental, plus with the upcoming infinity wars, the mcu in general is going darker and I think we needed this last big laugh before that. Thor as a character is somewhat more ridiculous than any of the other avengers, even in a superhero line up and I think if they were going to go all out making fun of themselves, marvel chose the right movie to do so.
Agreed, in fact it hindered my enjoyment of Avengers at the time as well. Its a shame the Marvel movies don't take themselves more seriously. Ironically, the Guardians movies seem to be the most resonant by virtue of having a different brand of humor.
i kinda agree with you on this. i thought it was a brilliant movie, but some of the moments, for example when they did the "my chain is turning me around" joke for the second time, were a bit too much.
I didn't really know how this video was gonna be bc I just subscribed but actually, I had the same feeling at the Thor calming Hulk down scene. I awww-ed out loud and than they shut it down and it was like, "Oh... ok, there goes that I guess." Edit: I don't think I realized that I was getting unattached during the movie until watching this, but now that I think about it, I was. You're right, all they really need is a balance
I've seen a lot of talk about Marvel’s tone problem recently, even before Thor, and I'm not really sure how I feel. It definitely bothers me when what should be a sincere or exciting moment is undercut by a joke - part of why we watch superhero movies is to root for the hero and get excited. "Come on peter, come on spiderman" was a great scene because it was played completely straight, and that's important. With Ragnarok, though, the "subversive" jokes didn't bother me. Maybe the Hulk scene did a little bit, but certainly not as much as it would've in other Marvel movies. What's different, I think, about Ragnarok, is that where other movies strive for emotion that doesn't balance well with the jokes and leaves the audience uncomfortable, Ragnarok doesn't ask for much emotional investment. Like GotG (though that's more clearly marketed as a comedy), it opens with a joke, and the audience knows what to expect from there. We still get to see Thor kick ass without falling on his face, and the more emotional moments are given enough weight, but overall the tone feels consistent and comfortable.
coming back to this video on a jack binge, it’s pretty funny to me to see quite a few comments saying “oh you’re meant to watch it this way” and “it was written for this audience”,,,, a good film should be good regardless of who you are and how you watch it??? maybe that’s just me
I'm so glad somebody else had this view of Ragnarok, when I saw it it wasn't even halfway through when I realized I wasn't going to enjoy the rest of it. I didn't have a BAD time, I just didn't like how it decided to keep being funny instead of giving us any good character/plot moments (the Hulk/bridge moment is my go-to complaint and I'm really glad you mentioned it too). It felt like the movie didn't care about the characters or plot outside of using them to make jokes and almost made fun of us for expecting/wanting a "cool moment" and overall I didn't like it.
Best line of the movie:
"I tried to start a revolution, but didn't print enough pamphlets, so nobody turned up"
😂😂
LOVED that dialogue.
"except for my mum, and her boyfriend, whom I hate."
Jackson Lana omg glad 200 people agree... I was literally the only person laughing in the cinema it was embarrassing!
YES KORG IS ONE OF THE BEST THINGS IN THE MOVIE ❤️
"Mieks dead. I stepped on him during the fight and I've been feeling so guilt I've been carrying him around with me ever since" DEAD
The incredibles 'you caught me monologuing' was really the original Hulk/Loki scene
Even as marvel fan, I'm not afraid to admit it has a lots of problems
Solomie Amanuel Agreed. I liked the movie a lot but I feel like Marvel was trying way to hard to get the audience to actually like Thor. I hope in the future Taika Waititi eases off on the humor when he starts working on the sequel.
This is why I like marvel fans. They don't go around acting like marvel movies are a masterpiece that nobody understands or gets. They admit the flaws and have a good time anyway.
a lot...? I think marvel is doing amazing... they set up a franchise and made 20+ films without one being atrocious?
Vino sitas then I guess u haven't seen the hulk then cause it tanked hard
Zach Gerrity Idk which marvel fans your talking to, i’ve met plenty of marvel apologists that can’t handle criticism, some of them being friends of mine even.
I know little about the inner workings of film but I found myself nodding at every point you made. You are a great speaker, mate.
+JaackMaate Cheers Jaack xxxx
JaackMaate Leafy’s back!
I enjoyed Thor Ragnarok but I agree that some jokes or plot twists felt a bit redundant. One of my main problems is that they spent so long dragging out the secret identity of the mysterious champion, when every trailer and promo for the movie told us already that it was going to be Hulk. Maybe that moment would've worked great if it was a genuine GOTCHA! but it meant every time characters kept trying to hype up the mystery you sit there like, yeah, we get it, move on. I feel like that's an example where the marketing is working at cross purposes with what the director was trying to achieve.
LilDeuceDeuce I m completely opposite, knowing it was hulk made me even more excited.
I enjoy more"the journey to that moment" than the moment itself.
I m more excited for the setup of a surprise or plot twist than the twist itself.
Yeah. And to add on to that, the fact that the audience in the arena know that the Hulk is nearly invincible but most moviegoers know that Thor can go toe-to-toe with him made the anticipation for the fight that much better.
I don't really think the film played up a mystery around the champion. Really, the only ones who didn't know it was Hulk were Thor and Loki.
Absolutely, I agree with you, the way it builds up to it certainly seems like that's what Taika Waititi originally intended it to be like and the Marvel marketing machine just robbed him (and us) of that moment. That said, I think the secret was out quite early on, and in this day and age, it'd b pretty hard to keep that kind of casting under wraps, so they just seemed to not bother in the end and just let that character's presence in the film be widely known and used as a drawcard to get you into the theatre to see it.
i think marvel & dc both have pretty big problems with tone but they go about it differently (marvel tries to interrupt dramatic moments w/ jokes, dc lets the dramatic moment stand and follows with a tasteless-feeling one-liner)
completly agree, but i think that people end up enjoying marvel movies because at least they laugh at the end of the moment (even though they take away the drama from it) while with dc movies you're left feeling almost uncomfortable at how serious they TRY to be... my opinion anyway...
yeah! when someone gets shot in suicide squad & the heroes follow it up with a joke it doesn't feel like you should be laughing. it's like the writers include the quip cause that's how action movies work now instead of thinking through the scene
I agree! I feel like DC takes themselves way too seriously whereas Marvel doesn't take themselves serious at all (ya know, with of exceptions of course). I've always preferred Marvel over DC but it has been hard for me to get excited about some of the newer films because of the borderline cheesiness that is starting to become more prevalent. I will say I was pleasantly surprised by Thor Ragnarock though, especially not being a huge fan of Thor personally. I think Marvel can keep its quirks and jokes and still make a heartfelt/meaningful story, there's just got to be a better balance. I think the first Iron Man movie did a good job of that.
I hope Black Panther doesn't fall victim to this. Even Winter Soldier struck the right balance between fun and serious when it wanted to, and became the best movie (in my eyes at least) from the MCU. what Marvel does now almost feels as if they're embarassed to be sincere out of fear of being made fun of, but end up being the joke themselves. DC is the opposite, sometimes they're wayyy too serious, but with Wonder Woman, they found a great balance.
Nolan Dean Yes I do hope black Panther is more like Winter Soldier and less like the more comedy heavy movies. I love the more light hearted movies but Black Panther deserves a more serious tone especially as it's the lead up to Infinity War
I totally agree with what you're saying, but on the other hand, every time that New Zealand rock guy talked, I was in stitches ahahahaha too funny but yeah, the balance was a little bit off in this one
He was good at directing and was one of the best characters in the film! He is just a talented man!
No but see, Korg (rock guy) isn't at all a problem. Jokes aren't a problem. It's the way they always take precedence over any serious storytelling that just becomes annoying, at least to me.
Isabella Parker Korg scenes were my favourite scenes
Korg's scenes were some of the funniest in the movie but at the same time I don't think he's a good character and Meek was essentially just an extension of Korg's jokes. That's pretty disappointing for me since I really like both in comics especially Planet Hulk which this movie totally wastes the potential of.
Whoops lol
I mean... I wouldn't have cared if he was from New Zealand, Thailand, or Zimbabwe. Thor 3 was pure cringe lol
With the whole pushing the joke too far aspect, like repeating of Thor spinning on the chain thing, I think it's possible that it's a very Australian/New Zealand type of humour. Like self-deprecating, not taking yourself seriously, pushing it as far as it will go type of humour is I believe very typical of Australian/New Zealand comedies in general. I know that I found the film much funnier than several friends of mine who are not Australian did. Ragnarok was always going to be a comedy tho, as soon as the director was announced it was going to be a comedy, and personally I think the Thor storyline needed it, as he was too unapproachable and frankly boring before. I didn't like either of the previous Thor movies. I do hope that Infinity Wars is going to take itself more seriously tho.
I kind of agree with you here, about it being an Aussie/Kiwi thing. I watched in an Australian cinema and there was no sort dip in the energy at the second spin like Jack experienced. Everyone still found it funny because it's just making fun of himself again and again, which is very much our humour here. But could be wrong, dunno.
Yes, if Infinity war isn't serious and kinda gritty, it will likely take away from the points and severity of the events.
You're right, it definitely has the Australian/NZ self deprecating humour going on- even to the point of quoting 'The Castle' - which is considered a classic movie in Australia but I would doubt anyone from another country would have picked up on the joke or even heard of The Castle.
I think we're used to an almost over the top amount of self deprecating humour, so I understand why some of it may have fallen flat elsewhere.
I was about to say this before I saw this comment. I think it’s interesting that the Australian comedy style is just not understood in the US. Almost every criticism like this to do with the way the jokes in the film are handled or “go to far” I feel I can dismiss by saying “look mate this is our culture and it’s fucking hilarious, maybe you don’t get it all the time but that’s ok we don’t always get your sense of humour” Taika has been seen in interviews talking about how he took jokes too far purposefully and then taking them a step further, and it’s perfect.
Jack, you are one of the only RUclipsrs who doesn’t just pander to what’s popular and you just do what you enjoy and talk about what your passionate about. I really respect this and think that you are a really great role model who shows that you don’t have do what everyone does to be popular. For this, I say thank you Jack Howard!!!
I agree with your point, BUT I think that it’s actually less of a problem with Thor: Ragnarok. Not that it isn’t massively there, but my emotional attachment to Thor and Asgard was already well out of the window after the first two Thor movies, and I liked that they played into that and just had fun. Guardians balances the two perfectly, but I think they’d have had to almost ruin the film with sentmentality to make me care about Thor
Cameron Tyson Just want your opinion on this. How does sentimentality ruin the/a film?
That’s why I liked Spider man homecoming, it felt very sincere
Sarah Finch My exact thoughts👍
Sarah Finch I loved that film!
yes! peter's a goofball, the jokes come from a place of genuine-ness, not snark
Definitely the best Marvel film this year. Guardians and Thor couldn't baleance the comedy with drama, but Spider-Man did it excellently. Black Panther looks like a much more serious film, and I hope Infinity War manages to strike the perfect balance.
I thought it felt too forced
This is the most honest and accurate review I've seen. I also didn't like a few other things like, the fact that they made the destruction of Asgard THOR'S FUCKING HOME, into a joke for Korg. I felt like that took too much away from the scene. I should've felt something in that moment, pain, loss or whatever. It wasn't there. Ragnarok does this a lot, it pulls you out of several moments for slapstick comedy and I don't like it. But it genuinly is a fun movie that actually made me give a shit about Thor.
Agreed!
I don't remember who originally commented this but they basically wanted two scenes which were emotional: Odin's death and when Asgard was blown up. The first one I could sort of understand why they didn't linger on to for too long seeing that it was just the beginning of the movie but I totally agree with you. It would have been a nice shift in tone if they stayed serious while the whole blowing up happened. They could go back to joking in the next scene no problem
I get that the director wanted to do a light hearted comedy, but I think he needed to realize dedicated fans also love the emotional arcs in marvel so we care about the fictional characters.SPOILERS: I did appreciate the sentimental end when Thor would have given Loki a hug if he actually was there and he WAS!!!
Yeah I think the movie fulfilled its purpose, but could have been improved if they had held back on humour attempts in some points.
To think Ragnarok was supposed to be about the End of Days for the Gods, the darkest moment and it's like no let's make jokes and let's ourselves create Ragnarok. Oh and btw, no Asgardians were hurt in the making of this movie. This could have been the ultimate fight but it wasn't.
People keep getting the wrong end of the stick with Thor: Ragnarok and it's starting to become frustrating. Marvel Studios enjoys trying to blend genres together, at least they say they do. Everyone raves about how winter soldier was 'A superhero film but it was a political thriller.' Thor Ragnarok was a comedy film. As soon as I heard Taika Waititi was directing, that basically confirmed it. They were doing a superhero film but it is also a comedy. Not just having lighthearted scenes and a few jokes like most Marvel films, a solid comedy start to finish. I think people need to think differently when watching it. Watch it as if its a comedy.
totally agree. and I generally enjoyed it so much. i also didn't really expect the jokes coming all the time, but that might be cause i'm not as much a film critic as Jack.. idk. in fact, the only joke that sort of annoyed me was when they made fun of "the sun's going down"
James Court exactly!
James Court that's actually a fresh take. Knowing who directs each film and what the trailers include should determine what genre film the audience should go in expecting to watch.
I agree. I really like that they're stepping out of the superhero genre and giving it more depth and nuance. It isn't just a super hero film with another big bad to defeat. It's more than that - it's a character driven comedy that propels Thor's development forward. Like... It's both. Just like the comics have so often been.
Zoie Wittenberg I though Jack would've expected what he got with Thor knowing that Waitrose was directing
Ragnarok was definitely written for Australian/New Zealand audiences. The entire cinema was laughing the entire film, but I did think it might not play as well in other countries. Korg’s “yeah nah”s and “sweet as bro” we’re so good. The self deprecating jokes and the jokes that aren’t so funny but just keep going to the point that that’s what’s funny about it idk I think it’s the style of comedy that Taika Waititi is comfortable in and he absolutely nailed.
I like that style in Taika Waitit's previous films, but not as much in this one. It just felt out of place most of the time with Thor.
Due to Marvel Comics style I don’t mind the quips and jokes in the moves, in fact I’d be surprised if they weren’t there. Also Thor: Ragnarok was advertised and promised to the audience as a comedy, i think this was mainly because the next couple of films we’re getting from the studio are going to be darker in tone. However, I think your right that it can become predictable and can make the audience suffer a bit of “joke fatigue”.
Lewis John Yule despite being a comedy, Thor ragnarok is darker than you might expect. So much death and destruction from a marvel movie
Now that you mentioned it, I realised it is one of Marvel’s problem. Before watching this video, I couldn’t pinpoint what exactly this whole thing is but I did feel that some jokes didn’t hit me as hard as it supposed to because I expected it. Hmmmm... That being said, I do agree that Ragnarok is really fun and I really enjoyed watching it. I’m planning to watch it again tomorrow. (It’s not everyday you’ll find me willing to pay TWICE to see the same film. Hahahaha.)
YES ABSOLUTELY!! There is nothing wrong with just including sentimentality- it's bloody key.
Here we are 6 years after this video, and it FINALLY feels like mainstream audiences are starting realize this. It’s a shame it took this long, but I’m glad it’s happening.
I completely agree with these points, I've been feeling, sort of since ant man, that marvel are getting too smart for themselves, like the way in which they break the norm (their anti-chliché, if you will) is becoming predictable. What's wrong with a classic superhero movie every once in a while?
The thing is marvel movies are actually comedy first and action/drama second. That's why it's worked so well other than the fact that marvel movies are just made brilliantly. You strip away the brand "marvel" from the movies and it'd still be enjoyable because it excels at just being a movie, you know with great script, character depth, coherence and a plot that actually makes sense. And honestly i don't mind the jokes at all, because like i said it's a comedy movie. They make great sentimental/drama as well. The end bits of civil war had me feeling really sad. Yes it's not perfect but it's not cheap or trash or half-assed either. I'm just glad that marvel puts in time and effort and gives the directors creative control and freedom with their movies. And all the while giving the fans what they want as well. So yea it's a win win situation.
That’s why I love daredevil and punisher so much it proves you don’t need jokes to have a good movie
The better subversion for Bruce jumping out of the plane would be for him to land as Hulk, look powerful, only to cut to wide and see he's ripped through his pants.
It was given multiple setups earlier - first, naked Hulk and then Bruce commenting on how tight Tony's pants are.
And since most of his following fight was half-submerged in water, they don't need to worry about goofily censoring him.
With a little more planning they could have had their cake and eaten it too.
(The cake in this context is Hulk's penis.)
Thank you, this is exactly my problem. It seems to me like Ragnarok was so busy being hilarious they undermined every single halfway serious moment. Like, in the Avengers, Loki and Thor get interrupted in a funny way too but before that they have a few minutes (!) of genuinely epic and touching dialogue. They get room for the characters to evolve and to make them and their relationship relevant. In Ragnarok they interrupt everything after 20 seconds.
Best example of this I think (and only real thing I disliked about Ant-Man) is when Hope and Pym are talking about Hope’s mother and being all sentimental and nice and all, and it’s a big emotional moment, and Paul Rudd’s character just butts in, can’t remember what he said, something along the lines of, “This is great, you two are breaking down walls. Oh I ruined the moment, didn’t I?” And we just didn’t need that, it wasn’t particularly funny, it was just a bit... meh... it could have been funny, but I think the emotional moment would have been nicer.
You just put into words exactly how I felt about Thor.
Im surprised they didnt crack jokes during the funeral of tony
The two examples you gave was not the case for me. Everyone laughed at my cinema just as much, if not more when he spun the second time around and was like "I'm not even doing this. It's doing it itself". And I did NOT expect Banner to just fall on the bridge. I actually did expect Hulk to show up. But that's just me, and my cinema
I totally agree with what you explain in this video. I started disliking it in the more recent films. I hated the scene in Dr. Strange with the cape. I hated the scene in GoTG2 when Nebula expresses her wishes to kill Thanos and the other guy makes a dumb remark, and I felt very betrayed by Thor: Ragnarok. I felt like they got it right in Black Panther though.
I haven't seen many of the recent Marvel movies, but I have seen Guardians of the Galaxy vol. 2, and this is kind of how I felt about that. I couldn't put my finger on why it didn't quite resonate with me like the first one did until you just said "predictable subversiveness".
One of my favourite films of all time is Pacific Rim (not Marvel, I know, but hear me out)
I love that film because it's so unapologetically corny. It follows the rule of cool and doesn't joke about it or make an excuse for it, and in the process a badass sci-fi action film was made!
Stacker's "Cancelling the apocalypse" speech never fails to get me pumped. It's so heroic and...badass? That's the only word I can think of, badass!
If the sequel goes down the joky path, which I doubt, it would dissapoint me greatly
I completely agree!! I thought the same exact thing throughout the movie. I thought the hulk part was endearing, and I was a little annoyed when it didn’t work. I did think it redeemed itself a little later on though when he actually saw the video of Nat. But not enough, if that makes sense. And yeah Bruce jumping out at the end was predictable. One of my favorite things about the marvel movies is the humor, but still being able to emotionally connect with the characters. But this one, it just felt like every character was a comedian and they were all making fun of their problems. Which tbh relatable, but it was too much. And they did make Banner touch on that, which is weird? When he was trying to tell Thor, like “don’t you understand, I might stay the hulk forever, this isn’t a joke!” But Thor was still making light of the situation. It’s as if they knew what they were doing
This sums up my opinions pretty perfectly, with Banner landing on the bridge being the perfect example. It feels like they sometimes are afraid of trying to be cool because they'll get made fun of for trying too hard. I would love to have Hulk land on the wolf and just be bad ass. Another issue I have when I look at Thor in the context of other MCU films is how the tone and character conflicts with the rest of his appearances. For the most part, he's had his funny fish out of water moments but generally be somewhat serious, but in Ragnarok he felt just a bit incompetent, or that he was a walking joke machine at times. Still the best Thor movie by leaps and bounds, they just could have dialled down the jokes like jack said.
I didn't really like Thor Ragnarok, i thought it tried too hard to be guardians of the galaxy. I mean, yeah it was funny and all, but i thought it lost a bit of its purpose as a superhero movie, it was like the movie was already a "scary movie" type parody of itself. I love stupid jokes, i love comedy and there is totally a place for that in a super hero movie, but it just takes so much away from the "real" moments in it, just like you said, you can't really connect to it.
You should check out What Writers Can Learn From Wonder Woman. It discussed the issue with insincere emotional moments in Marvel films, I think you'd appreciate it.
As soon as the credits began when I went to see it, I immediately thought "I can't wait to hear Jack talk about this"
Oh one hand I agree with you about the joke predictability thing- banner on the bridge was a great example- however, for me that didn’t make the emotional moments fall at all flat. That scene in the elevator with Thor and Loki, where Thor says ‘Loki I thought the world of you’ like, I really felt something, I was getting that tight feeling in my chest of ‘oh’ but then a minute or so later I was cackling at ‘get help’ but I didn’t necessarily feel like that contrast diminished the emotional action for me. I actually thought it worked subversively, and even at the end where you end up basically laughing as the planet blows up, I thought that was kinda a cool way to lighten it, and they did really spend the whole movie building to stopping that from happening. That being said the second time I saw it wasn’t as fun and I didn’t feel like it really held up to a second viewing well because of the predictability issues you mentioned. Also I’m not a film critic like you jack so maybe I’m just not as attuned. I do think that the subversivness becoming predictable trope is 100% a problem in the wider marvel movies and I found it annoying in guardians of the galaxy too, I just think there was a lot of it that wasn’t quite so predictable in Thor: Ragnarok
GTOGV2 i think had more of this problem
Totally agree.
These are people jumping around in costumes and yeah, that's an inherently funny thing, but making light of that shouldn't compromise the sincerity that can/should lie at the heart of these stories
I saw the film with two friends that aren't superhero fans. They found it amazing; I think because they just saw it as a comedy film. I was pretty disappointed. I thought it was going to be a superhero film, but I left in the same mindset that I leave comedies... it was rather disappointing.
I do totally agree there Jack. It felt like I wasn't allowed to feel anything other than humour, I wanted to feel sad when third entire group of friends were brutally murdered, or when Odin passes away, but I got none of that.
Side bar, I much preferred all of the scenes on the other planet (I'm sorry I forgot the name!!) and it felt like all the rest of it was almost shoehorned in? As if the story was pitched as just the section with Thor trying to get off the planet because he doesn't want to be a slave - because, duh - and the producers said that they wanted the main plot to take place on asgard with hela as the villain and just kind of told the writers to "make it work".
I wish they hadn't ruined that moment where Thor is trying to calm the Hulk down because it was genuinely sweet. Also, that bit in Avengers where Black Widow does it was bad because 1. it was sort of lame and 2. it was such a weird reinforcement of gender roles like, the only woman in the group is the one who can be soft and calm Hulk down with her womanly charm? get outta here. She was never sweet before that, so it was kind of out of character too.
BUT, the fact that Thor, god of thunder and super macho realness, could potentially be soft and sweet and calm the Hulk down, now THAT would have been subversive!! There didn't need to be an "it didn't work" joke to surprise us because if it HAD worked it would have been waaaaay more surprising. It was so close to being new and exciting but they pulled back like "haha jk, Thor and Hulk are both big straight macho men of course it didn't work".
That was the biggest example but all throughout the movie they make jokes that diminish their potential friendship (i.e. Thor lying to Hulk and Bruce about which one he prefers just so that he can get what he wants). By the end of the movie, you don't get the feeling that they were actually friends. Heck, we didn't even find out if Bruce is gonna be able to come back at all or if the Hulk just took over forever, and Thor (who knew this could happen) doesn't even try to find out. He doesn't give a shit.
The thing I love the most about stories is the characters and the relationships they form. That's why I liked Loki in this movie, who is still a shithead but Thor still cares about him anyway. But they really dropped the ball with Hulk's and Thor's friendship (in Bruce's words, "I don't think you're my friend at all")
+Zuko all great points!
thanks :')
I didn't notice it while watching but now that you say it, it makes total sense
I really agree, Thor was my favorite, I really don't know why. I think it was just because back during his origin it was the most different compared to others. So I came into Ragnarok excited to finally see Thor again and see his story and while I enjoyed the movie and had fun, I just kinda left the movie with a feeling that I can only describe as "What's the point". I just watched movies with characters that I loved but I didn't really understand why I felt like I should love them so much. I didn't really understand why I felt that way until I watched this video, thanks Jack.
I WAS JUST SAYING THIS TO MY FRIEND YESTERDAY!
and honestly, the more mcu movies come out (and movies of that like), the more i start to wonder if maybe that's why many of my friends are so amazed by the (f.e) 80s movies that i show them. bc even if they're cheesy and often absolutely absurd, at least they are genuine? they take themselves serious and so, as an audience, you can take it serious too. you can sink into a story about a boy who is best friends with an old doctor and ends up inventing rock'n'roll, and still hold your breath and sit on the edge of your chair at every action scene bc you know that it is okay to be genuinely plunged into this story.
what is lacking in SO many modern (hollywood) movies (next to proper stakes) is the permission to feel. whenever we do, whoop, turns out they were just trying to tease us. or fool us. or even mock us for even DARING to think we're allowed to genuinely feel something about the scene they're presenting us. it's like moffat's sherlock and his 6thousand plotturns that eventually just leave you cool and bored bc if they want you to feel like a fool for thinking there's an actual plot or emotion, then, hey, i'm not gonna be invested in that crap. no wonder our generation is so fucked up if the most seen humour in media is self-mocking. hell, sometimes i hear about the cutest romantic stories and i hear myself make a cynic or sarcastic comment straight out of a bad seth rogen movie.
for movies like deadpool that's perfectly okay, bc theyre born out of the premise that "nothing is real, art is still dead" -bo. we don't go see deadpool to be emotionally touched. but even movies like hancock who start out with this self-aware humour of 'haha u expected a hero now u get a drunkard' eventually have their heart-piercing moments of genuine emotion. hell, look at the edgar wright movies. funny in so many points. but not in this CONSTANTLY tiring subversive way. moments of depth stay moments of depth and moments of weight stay moments of weight. no constant mood drops and pokes at the 'haha dumb audience for thinking this is actually gonna be a good scene thats gonna mark or even change you', like sOME MOVIES.
sgh. anyway. my point is. we're all gonna end up emotionally crippled bc of men in tights, and jack is, once again, right.
The Anxious Elefant Wow. This comment. Bravo.
Funnily enough, I think Deadpool still took the time to make us feel. There are instances where the jokes stop and we just feel what Wade Wilson is feeling at a particular moment.
*Every Marvel movie has a gag every 5 seconds except for incredible HULK*
I literally watched this movie for the first time yesterday. I didn't necessarily predict the jokes. But I definitely got a sense that cinematic moments were being sacrificed for jokes. Though Banner hitting the bridge was shocking I more would have preferred seeing him transform mid air and grab the wolf.
Totally agree! I think the second Guardians of the Galaxy movie did a great job with the balance of comedy to serious moments, and Thor kind of...didn't? Like, I love Thor with all my heart, but a lot of the stuff just fell flat. Except for the rock guy -- he's my favorite.
The one part that was sweet and that I don't think they did ruin with a stupid joke was the ending, when Loki walks into Thor's room, and Thor throws that cap at him. That had been done before, two or three times, and it was getting old. But when it happened the last time and Loki actually caught it, it really struck a chord with me and I almost started crying. But yes! I totally agree with you.
Couldn't have put it better..... I totally agree. They still need the subversion to make the film feel grounded. But they need to find a middle ground.
I agree. There's a scene in one of the newer Black Panther trailers where a character says "Try not to freeze" or something and he responds with "I never freeze" and then jumps off something, and I keep expecting a joke because of the precedent of the last few films, but he just does a cool jump and landing and just the lack of a joke's quite surprising.
I think I did get invested in the dramatic/emotional scenes though in a way, Thor and Loki's relationship was less emphasised but I feel it had definitely developed since the last one. At least it wasn't like Guardians 2 (Which I really liked) where every single dramatic moment ended with a joke like clockwork, whereas there are at least a couple in Ragnarok that are allowed to just breathe.
I agree with everything you said except the part about the opening gag with the chain turning. I saw Thor twice and both times the joke actually got funnier for the audience.
i think spider-man hoco got that balance really well
really? i hope so
i always liked that Marvel seemed to be a bit more humorous about telling their stories than most others. "superheroes" is one of my favourite genres in films, but i don't like it when they're done overly action-y and serious (ex. Man of Steel), so i always appreciated Marvel's more light yet upbeat approach to them.
but i definitely agree with what you're saying, they're far overdoing it now and turned it into a big re-appearing stunt rather than a way of storytelling. i love Marvel's characters, i care about them and am emotionally invested. so though i like a good laugh, sometimes i do just want to sit there and cry my eyes out at a scene!
I love taika waititi but I totally agree with the part about how there can't really be a sentimental moment cuz I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop so I become emotionally guarded
General idea is on point BUT that "Sun's getting low" moment is a bad example...THAT was one of the best/funniest moments to me and was perfectly set up. It was Thor clumsily trying out a method Black Widow could only pull off with Hulk, in effort to try to calm his needed ally down. I don't think it should have been viewed as a "dramatic" moment turned comedic....it was comedic from the start and while I called it that Hulk was gonna yoke him around LOL it still delivered to me. I thought it was a brilliant callback to the last time we saw Hulk.
This was spot on, i love the humour in Spiderman homecoming my favourite marvel movie
Same here. Homecoming's awesome.
I feel like the Marvel joke problem is the one aspect of the films that puts me off. Avengers Assemble started this revolution with jokes in the MCU, with Iron Man 3, Guardians 1 and Ant-Man. Following, but Ant-Man became the movie were I was like, ok, now there are too many jokes. Doctor Strange sort of had this promlem, with Guardians 2, Homecoming and Ragnorok truly taken advantage. Iron man 1, The Incredible Hulk, Iron Man 2, Thor, the first avenger, the dark world, Winter solider, civil war and Black Panther don’t really have this problem. My favorite MCU movies are the ones that aren’t cluster with jokes, I.e, Winter Soilder, Civil War. But yea, Marvel after Infinity War need to find a balance.
I completely agree. If Marvel wants to go the comedy route they should stick to it in the GOTG films and maybe a few other ones. If they add all these subversive jokes in every film (which they haven’t thus far) it’ll get pretty stale. I loved Thor: Ragnarok and I know that Taika Waititi made it a comedy to revive the Thor franchise, but I just hope they don’t add a whole bunch of comedic moments into a serious film like Black Panther and Infinity War.
SPOILERS COMING UP!
Totally agree. By the end of the movie they had their emotional climax, when Asgard is destroyed, I actually felt it, even though I had previously never cared much about Asgard. The built up to that moment was very well put together. Only to be ruined by a joke by Korg. The joke didn't work because it felt like the writers were not sure if the sequence worked emotionally. Like they were unsure whether I was emotionally invested or not. And so they made a joke in case I wasn't.
But I kinda was. And the joke immediately pulled me out of that genuine connection and pushed me away.
I adore the MCU. Homecoming and Guardians Vol. 2 exceeded my expectations in every way. But Thor: Ragnarok? Good lord, it was a mess. Exemplified everything wrong with Marvel, which they had (up to now) been doing a good job of refining.
Am I the only one who thought that Bruce was certainly gonna land as the Hulk on the bridge? I certainly did, especially since it happened in age of Ultron when Black widow kicked him down a precipice and when he told Valkyrie "You wanted to know who am I?...well you're about to find out!"
The audience was expecting this cool badass, expected hero moment and they did the opposite and the comedy delivered!!
Also: when the big wolf creature went to attack the helpless civilians none of us were expecting him to be jolted and pulled backwards.........revealed later to be by "The Hulk!"
That's fantastic writing right there!
I loved ragnarock. But especially when banner hit that bridge i was hella confused. I did not expect him to hit the bridge. It kinda killed the moment and i thought he died. Banner did hit at a high velocity as a human. But they had their moments.
Completely agree! I saw Ragnarok recently and whilst I enjoyed it it did feel as though something was missing and in hindsight I think it was emotional attachment. A lot of what could have been emotional/gripping moments of character development were lost in the punchline and I feel that in many ways taking every comedic opportunity devalues the moments of genuine humour. Of course self aware jokes are part of what makes the marvel movies great but I just wish they'd take themselves seriously a little bit more sometimes - at least when sincerity would pay off more than a joke.
Good point bro,
Otoh, you can also see the instant comedy as backup plan in case the story or plot or character or emotional scenes may not work.
I mean, if the story may not be good, if the film has plot holes, but the comedy is good, audience may skip past all that and enjoy the movie as they laughed.
We all know that we give lower standard in terms of story or plot or whatever else in comedy or horror movies as long as the comedy hits and the horror frightens.
I totally agree, those were mine and my boyfriend's feelings exactly when we saw Ragnarok. I find it weird cause a lot of people I know keep talking about how it's the best Marvel movie ever and I'm just like, the first Thor alone was better
But hey, that's just my opinion
I agree completely. As a comedy, Ragnarok was great. I wasn't able to put a name on why it felt a little awkward but you summarized it perfectly! However, I also feel the MCU as a whole has to be balanced because Ragnarok is just one movie in a studio that's already put out over a dozen movies in the same overarching storyline. Especially with Black Panther (which I believe will be rather serious) and Infinity War (which I'm guessing will be emotionally devastating) coming out in the future, Ragnarok had to provide some fun. However, I feel as if the "Asgard blowing up" scene should have been more emotional. But I also feel as though the scenes with Hela ravaging and destroying Asgard were emotional. Heimdall protecting the refugees, Thor being able to see the state of his homeland, the people that went down fighting- those were the parts that made me emotionally invested in the movie. They don't actually stick out much in the first viewing, though (I watched the movie three times, haha!). It's also that we weren't really invested in Asgard in the first place? They seemed rather prissy and stuck-up in the first two movies and there was no real connection with them so I guess it's destruction wouldn't have added emotion. I mean, if Earth blew up, we'd be devastated, which is an understatement. But we also have a deeply personal connection with the planet. I would have liked to see something like that on the refugees' part- the people's reactions hurt more than the planet being destroyed. Also, this comment is sort of all over the place but I hope I got my point across.
I started watching this thinking i was gonna be mad and then jack said the bit about banner falling out of the plane and not turning into the hulk and I totally got it because I knew that was gonna happen whilst it was happening also. Thor was a comedy rather than an action, thriller, comic movie which it really could've been. I agree. I cared less about the characters by the end of the film. When Asgard fell apart where normally I would've cried (cause am a big baby) I couldn't have gave two shits which kind of disconnected me from that moment. Love the film, but your criticisms were bang on.
I think spiderman homecoming had a nice mix. Moments like Happy in the bathroom being interrupted are subversions, but the moment of Peter lifting the rubble, or him in the car with vulture are legitimate
Spider man homecoming did a good job mixing the comedy but making it serious.I was invested with the villains dialogue because Peter was actually frightened and scared.He didn't talk over him.
I loved Ragnarok just because it seemed more like a character film than a genre film. Like, the Superhero genre was just a backdrop for the character interactions.
But then I've always loved parody and humour.
I definitely agree that they need balance. I loved Thor Ragnarok, but I also loved The Winter Soldier, which is probably the most earnest film of the franchise so far. There's a bit of discontinuity of tone between different series - the Captain America films go earnest, but I suppose that's easier because so is the character. Spiderman Homecoming did it well, but that had a lot to do with the age of the protagonist. Most of the other protags are supposed to be ultra-21st century cynics, so they're sort of stuck doing the subversive jokes - there was no way Stephen Strange was going to take magic seriously.
It's interesting that so many people said this, because to me some of the humor was a direct result of this being in such an outlandish place--literally out of our world. I appreciated the fact that Thor, Loki, and so many of the other "beings" in Thor: Ragnarok were seemingly light-hearted, whether they were or not. Many of them had seen and done so much crap for thousands of years. There was something very alien about the film, which I loved.
your argument is sound and valid, but, only if you don't take into account 1. its a Thor movie (with regards to the subversion of expectations in Ragnarok ) and so plays into the previous history with Thor as both a character in the cinematic universe and comics, as well as Thor as a filmic trilogy.
2.That the addition of levity actually goes some way to humanise Thor and as such helps make him a more relatable character than he had been before.
3. That there are actual moments of brevity. Ones that feel stronger because they build upon jokes or previous humorous moments. Skurge's moment of self sacrifice actually playing into one of the earliest jokes in the film. Or building a character for the Hulk through moments that are both funny and help to highlight his humanity. Like a temperamental child with friends. We laugh because we recognise the anger, not as huger rage monster but scared, lonely, and built from a love.
"You're not the god of hammers" is at all times both a joke and not a joke.
As for the other Marvel movies, aside from the guardians series, most have very little humour. At all times they feel like elements that build each characters humanity and help ground them a little more. Doctor Strange's clothes are ridiculous, if he doesn't naturally address it someone else probably will.
Peter, Tony, Scott all have personalities where humour or one liners are there to cover for nerves or weaknesses.
They do or say intentionally or unintentionally funny things as a consequence of their personalities and the situations they are in.
Captain America: Winter Soldier isn't remembered as an overtly comical film, but the "on your left" opening is essentially a jokey moment. It's just not played overly so.
For what it's worth I suspect that after 17 films and with the Avengers Infinity war opener coming up. Things are about to become quite a bit more weighty and this string of more light hearted fare is a deliberate plan to allow some breathing room before things become a lot less laugh out loud. I don't think we should see a total removing of the universes humorous leanings, but much much less.
I watched this in a small theater and it was really amazing how much that affected my enjoyment of the film. The jokes got chuckles but it definitely didn’t have a “laugh track” level of enthusiasm and it made almost everything fall flat.
Couldn't agree more! The Avengers was one of my favorite cinema experiences ever... three times. The humor was PERFECT.
Thor Ragnarok didn't come anywhere near that, pretty much all the jokes felt forced and predictable.
couldnt agree more, the first time this hit me was in Doctor Strange where every moment that could be heartfelt and nice was immediately ruined by a joke, eg. when the ancient one dies and then doctor strange has this nice little moment with Rachel McAdams and the scene ends with him looking into a mirror and crying, the scene couldnt have ended there and it would have been really nice....but then they had to completely ruin it by making the cape wipe away the tears and have Doctor Strange be all like "hey quite it", just completely switched the tone of the scene and does not fit at all
I agree with the bit about Thor doing the "suns going down" thing because when he first started doing it I thought it was adorable but then when it turned into a joke it just made the whole line seem even more cheesy than I already thought it was. I laughed, but I get what you're saying.
Fortunately, Black Panther is next, and I think Black Panther will be a very serious film like Iron Man or the Winter Soldier. Because Feige has been very respectful to the characters and T'Challa is NOT a snarky joker (Neither was Thor but hey, they tried twice and it didn't work).
Thor was definitely funny in the first film and in The Avengers films (I haven't seen The Dark World yet).
Thor has been a funny character in the past, just depends on what you're reading but they definitely went for a golden age Thor with Ragnarok and it worked best. As for Black Panther, he has never been funny as far as I'm aware, but his supporting cast has (E.g Agent Ross).
This is why I love homecoming so much it lets itself be sincere you care so much about peter Parker especially the scene under the rubble I don’t think we get anything like that in many marvel movies yet it was still probably one of the funniest ones
I agree with this completely! I loved the film because it was such a Taika-Kiwi film and I'm from New Zealand so that was incredible, but almost every joke I called beforehand, especially Bruce jumping out of the ship. I think even the scene at the beginning seemed to be the SAME shot, of Thor spinning round ? Or at least so similar that I as a film student went "ah they've used the same shot twice that's not great". Overall great movie, but I agree with you about the jokes.
I'm a bit late on this but I really loved Thor Ragnarok and didn't really tire of the subversion of expectations and jokes because I don't really watch all the Marvel movies so I'm not really used to it. I think I like it also because I watched it from the perspective of someone who wanted to see a cool 80s inspired Sci Fi - Fantasy and thats exactly what I got with some great jokes thrown in.
Ragnarok was the first Thor movie that to me didn't feel like a chore to sit through. Thor in the avengers was great, but those first two movies were hard to watch for me. I do also feel like if you don't care about the characters yet after seeing this many movies, you aren't going to. Maybe it's different if this is your first entry into the universe, but for most of us, you either care about Thor or you don't, and it's almost too late to change that
My favourite part of the movie was probably when hulk heard black widows voice I literally almost started crying
Agree literally 10000%. That Banner land on the bridge DID fall flat.
Can't say I'm entirely surprised at this, given that the first trailer I saw for Ragnarok was with Thor hanging upside down and the freeze frame "Yup that's me bet you're wondering how I ended up in this situation" line, which felt completely tonally off for me. I also enjoyed the two previous Thor films more or less, precisely because they did take themselves seriously at least _some_ of the time, the times when it mattered. That gave the films a little heart in my opinion.
100% agree with you on Ragnarok. There was a ton of the raving about how funny it was, but I really thought they took the humor too far. And I didn't like how callously and unceremoniously Volstagg and Fandral of The Warriors Three' were dispatched. So much death and destruction got glossed over for cheap gags that I found it off-putting. In the end, I felt like Wattiti could not have cared less about these characters, which makes me not want him involved with future projects.
Was really struggling to put my finger on what made me disconnect slightly - this was it.
Lol @ 0:17. That's exactly what I was thinking. Dammit.
I totally agree with you! I loved the jokes in Ragnarok and I laughed at most of them but I agree about the emotional detachment. You referenced the "Suns going down" gag and my god they ripped the piss out of that. It just kept going on. There completely needs to be a balance between the jokes and the emotional moments.
One I'm glad they didn't make into a joke is *SPOILER ALERT* at the end where Loki catches the ball (or whatever it is that Thor throws!) and says "I'm here"
I wasn't expecting that and it was nice! More of that Marvel, please!
I think this is wonderfully well put and so far, you're just about the ONLY RUclipsr I've found who I can relate to on all my film & tv opinions! Keep it up.
If you're impressed with this channel, you might be even more impressed with the channel entitled "Just Write." That guy made pretty much the same point about Doctor Strange and he has a lot of more interesting things to say about movies.
I really agree with this analysis. I don't like people just saying "There's too many jokes in Marvel movies!" because I don't think that is something that should hinder a movie from that franchise, but the point with subversion fatigue I think is perfect. And while I too really enjoyed Thor: Ragnarok (probably my favourite Thor movie, because I liked the revamp), I think that subversion fatigue is why it's still just a solidly good movie for me, and not an AMAZING movie.
I totally agree with you. Thor Ragnarok was the first film where it really stood out. I call this the 'Deadpool' filter. It felt like they wanted to use that same kind of humour, because that's popular. I honestly think Deadpool 2 will feel weird now. The strong part about Deadpool was that they made fun of typical superhero movies. Now that the movies do that themselves, there's nothing left to parody.
It felt like I was watching a human trying to be a hero, instead of an actual god being a god (like, why all the fuss about not touching his hair? It has never been a problem before)
I think Movie Bob does a good job at explaining why Ragnarok works so well and why the jokes that follow the serious moments actually add to the movie and the overall ideas in the flick.
when they first announced 'Thor: Ragnarok' I honestly thought that it would be a more 'serious' movie because it revolves around the destruction of Asgard.
I loved the new Thor movie, it was an improvement to the previous ones but it would have been exciting to see a serious approach to the storyline. It's good though when you see it as a comedy movie
I think you're right. The only problem with the idea that Marvel shound evolve it's sense of humor is that the formula is working pretty well for them. I really don't have faith that studios will take too many risks. For example I don't think they'd want Taika Waititi to direct the next Thor but I don't think they'd let him write it. Marvel has been pushing boundries a bit over the years but I don't think we should expect a major change any time soon. They'd have to work their way towards that over the next few years. I also give most of Marvels faults a pass because I don't hold studio movies to super high standards.
I do agree with this with Marvel in general but not so much with Ragnarok. I personally went into Ragnarok with more of a comedy rather than marvel mindset, I was ready for a Taika Waititi film & that's what I got. The cinema I was in laughed at pretty much every gag and I will say that can be infectious, but I did find it genuinely really funny and I came out with a grin on my face. I think as it's the 3rd Thor film, that's why they got away with so many gags. There's been 2 Thor films and all his other appearances in the mcu where we've got the time to be sentimental, plus with the upcoming infinity wars, the mcu in general is going darker and I think we needed this last big laugh before that. Thor as a character is somewhat more ridiculous than any of the other avengers, even in a superhero line up and I think if they were going to go all out making fun of themselves, marvel chose the right movie to do so.
Agreed, in fact it hindered my enjoyment of Avengers at the time as well. Its a shame the Marvel movies don't take themselves more seriously. Ironically, the Guardians movies seem to be the most resonant by virtue of having a different brand of humor.
At the start when Thor created a lightning field all I thought was Urbosa’s Fury is ready
i kinda agree with you on this. i thought it was a brilliant movie, but some of the moments, for example when they did the "my chain is turning me around" joke for the second time, were a bit too much.
I didn't really know how this video was gonna be bc I just subscribed but actually, I had the same feeling at the Thor calming Hulk down scene.
I awww-ed out loud and than they shut it down and it was like, "Oh... ok, there goes that I guess."
Edit: I don't think I realized that I was getting unattached during the movie until watching this, but now that I think about it, I was. You're right, all they really need is a balance
I've seen a lot of talk about Marvel’s tone problem recently, even before Thor, and I'm not really sure how I feel. It definitely bothers me when what should be a sincere or exciting moment is undercut by a joke - part of why we watch superhero movies is to root for the hero and get excited. "Come on peter, come on spiderman" was a great scene because it was played completely straight, and that's important. With Ragnarok, though, the "subversive" jokes didn't bother me. Maybe the Hulk scene did a little bit, but certainly not as much as it would've in other Marvel movies. What's different, I think, about Ragnarok, is that where other movies strive for emotion that doesn't balance well with the jokes and leaves the audience uncomfortable, Ragnarok doesn't ask for much emotional investment. Like GotG (though that's more clearly marketed as a comedy), it opens with a joke, and the audience knows what to expect from there. We still get to see Thor kick ass without falling on his face, and the more emotional moments are given enough weight, but overall the tone feels consistent and comfortable.
coming back to this video on a jack binge, it’s pretty funny to me to see quite a few comments saying “oh you’re meant to watch it this way” and “it was written for this audience”,,,, a good film should be good regardless of who you are and how you watch it??? maybe that’s just me
I'm so glad somebody else had this view of Ragnarok, when I saw it it wasn't even halfway through when I realized I wasn't going to enjoy the rest of it. I didn't have a BAD time, I just didn't like how it decided to keep being funny instead of giving us any good character/plot moments (the Hulk/bridge moment is my go-to complaint and I'm really glad you mentioned it too). It felt like the movie didn't care about the characters or plot outside of using them to make jokes and almost made fun of us for expecting/wanting a "cool moment" and overall I didn't like it.