Everyone has been told it's doom and gloom when your battery fails, when cost to replace a faulty cell in a Nissan Leaf is no more than having a clutch and mass balance flywheel replaced in an ICE. More people should know the facts instead of the bad publicity.
I saw the price flash up at the end of the video which gave a price range starting at £700. Replacing the clutch on my diesel Hyundai (which has a solid flywheel) cost £660. That was after 240,000 miles. But if you replace one faulty cell, or module, in a battery, how long is it before another module becomes faulty, and then another? Presumably all the cells in the battery are of similar age, and whilst one cell has to be the first to require replacement, doesn't mean it will be the last.
@@brendanpells912you could make that argument for any ice car as well The clutch goes, then how long before the alternator goes, head casket, spark plugs, engine, etc, etc. All that comes with owning a car. Things will fail at some point as the car ages.
@@brendanpells912 If you've done 240,000 miles on one clutch you've done very well. On modem cars these days you are also advised to change the mass balance flywheel. To replace the clutch, mass balance flywheel plus labour and consumables on small to medium sized cars, prices start at £700. Depending upon make and model they can cost as much as £1200. If you go to the main dealer, just double the lower price. I agree another cell could fail on an old car with battery degradation, but cambelt, gearbox or engine failure could also happen to an ICE.
@@davec1768 As I say, my car is a Hyundai, doesn't have a DMF, doesn't have a cam belt, engine and gearbox still running fine at 296,000 miles. Last time I had an engine failure was in 2002, Rover Metro 1.1.
Andrew - Hats off to the owner for letting you film this. We wish him well and also thank you for the interesting and informative video. Fascinating stuff. Clarkson wont be happy as he thinks they all get thrown away after 3 years! 🤣
This DVLA KILLER LAW will scare the C&*P out of anyone.... Battery boxes(in the boot) in conversions can no longer be bolted down and the only option is GLUE..... Using bolts is classed as a modification to the car and the DLVA then question the cars existence... Glue to hold a battery box down that could weigh 150kg or more... Now that 150kg in an impact and inertia and glue failure weighs 300,400,500......kg that`s now heading for survivors in crashes... The same rules apply to motor mounts no drilling or welding to secure motors... already seen motor & battery mounts just resting on chassis legs in the engine bay DVLA say it`s 110% legal & and illegal if bolted down securely using new holes.
There was a graphic that said that job is between £700 and £1400. Not sure many ICE cars can be fixed for that after a snapped cam belt. Or stretched timing chain in a modern BMW for example.
Good job well done Lads. Thanks for showing us the whole process and letting us into your workshop. To be frank, Its been a bit of a dark art to date which scares potential new and secondhand EV buyers and car dealers off. I'm just glad to know that sometime in the near future our children won't have to inhale toxic diesel and petrol emissions outside their school gate. Have a great day all who watch this channel.
absolutely, and those drivers at the school gates leave their engines running for ages so their little didums can have a warm/cool car. How totally thoughtless.
I do agree with your sentiments however it's not changing a thing globally. You're just exporting your fumes to china where they now have over 1100 coal powered power plants and are building hundreds more (2 coal plant permits per week are approved on average). When you look at the wider picture this "green" agenda is insanity.
Absolutely fascinating. One of your best videos… well done. And credit to that young lad for developing specialist skills in an emerging industry… he’ll be happily employed for life
@@stefenmitchell4112 There are currently 1.2million BEVs in the UK, going up around 300,000 per year, even if FCEVs are the future car manufacturers are all in on BEVs at the moment, so the skills to diagnose and repair what will end up being millions of cars will see many mechanics employed for many many years.
@@stefenmitchell4112 Where can I fill my Hydrogen car up? I live near Liverpool in the UK. Meanwhile, my BEV is rarely parked up more than a few feet from a 13 amp socket.
@@stefenmitchell4112 If you feel that way about EV's, why the hell are you even here? So you can fill others with your unknowledgeable negative thinking? Go away.
This is awesome to see. More garages need to be learning this stuff. It's lost business going forward as the percentage of EVs rises. Big thanks to Dean & Cameron for the explanations & insight.
10 years in R&D electronics. This is what we called phase B testing. It's where people pay to test it. Very few BEVs made so far will still viable by 2035. It's not the battery life any more than designed in limited lifespan.
The issue with EV or even ICE repairs nowadays is manufacturers deliberately making repairs difficult or even impossible. Which is why right to repair is important.
In this age of green issues, recycling etc it seems extremely odd that car manufacturers make repairs and recycling of parts so difficult and expensive. Mercedes code all the main elements like gearbox and such which means they cannot be used for recycling in another vehicle and John Deere in USA do the same with their tractors making on the fly repair impossible. Very sad state of affairs.
@@nomis3045Same problem with range rover. Even the towing controller for the electronics has to be coded to the car. You can't just take one off one vehicle and put on another. There's no reason for this other than making it difficult to do without visiting a dealer and buying a new one. Should be made illegal.
I’ve been an auto mechanic for 20 years and enjoy watching this. I keep telling people that battery packs can be repaired for the most part. Great Video
Although EV battery repairs will come as a heart stopping shock to the "if the battery gets scratched, the car is a write-off" crowd, because most of them belong to the " I'm not interested in the facts, I've already made my mind up " gang.
Tesla model 3 and model Y batteries are much harder to repair as the individual little cells are all glued together with some kind of polyurethan glue.
This DVLA KILLER LAW will scare the C&*P out of anyone.... Battery boxes(in the boot) in conversions can no longer be bolted down and the only option is GLUE..... Using bolts is classed as a modification to the car and the DLVA then question the cars existence... Glue to hold a battery box down that could weigh 150kg or more... Now that 150kg in an impact and inertia and glue failure weighs 300,400,500......kg that`s now heading for survivors in crashes... The same rules apply to motor mounts no drilling or welding to secure motors... already seen motor & battery mounts just resting on chassis legs in the engine bay DVLA say it`s 110% legal & and illegal if bolted down securely using new holes.
Amazing work by EV workshop hope you boys get the recognition and work you deserve. Keep providing a quality service and I'm sure you will have recommendations for as long as you want.
Thanks for showing this repair. It demystifies what a lot of prospective (and current) buyers need to know if the second hand market is to prosper. Watched a HEVRA accredited garage repair of a small battery component filmed by JP. IIRC HEVRA helped with that fix. Clear to see “repairability” wasn’t high priority for Nissan battery designers. “Just replace the battery pack and skip the old one.” 🙄
It hurts seeing those expensive hv insulating gloves used without cover gloves to protect them from cuts. Once the insulating gloves are damaged they need replacing. Those gloves look flimsy compared to to hv rated gloves I’ve seen elsewhere. Maybe they aren’t hv rated?
Great video, Andrew, really useful to see that not all is lost if there is a traction battery problem. Looks like the front left tyre needs changing though, very worn 🙂. I remember seeing a video some time ago when Robert Llewellyn upgraded his Nissan Leaf 24kwh battery from a 2011 car to a 40kwh battery that fitted into the same space. He then was able to say it was a 180m range car after the upgrade.
@@MrEV In the future it would be interesting to see them doing a liquid cooled battery. Bjorn Nyland has done a few videos in Norway showing EV battery repairs, perhaps you could follow him lead.
Thank you so much for sharing this interesting multi-part story. I am glad for the new owner to have such a pleasant experience after that rather rough start of his EV ownership.
Very interesting content. Well done Dean & Cameron for literally taking the leaf and getting involved in EV repairs. So much misconception about EV batteries but you boys make it look so routine! 👏
Excellent video, I think what impresses me the most is the guys in the workshop definitely know their stuff. It's really cool to see someone that specialises in this work and has a positive can-do attitude, they really look like they enjoy their work!
Excellent. Here in Brisbane Australia, EV repair is an emerging industry. I’ve been told I own the first BMW i3 sold in Queensland (I bought it second hand). Still going strong but I’m losing range slowly. I just hope EV repairs are embraced soon.
One of the most interesting videos on this topic, on YT. Having the right information, working with high voltage and all this plastic (possibly vulnerable) connectors, is key. Keep up the good work! Many thx for uploading this video!
Thanks, a real growth business. Many repair garages will need to upskill or lose out. Cleevely have made a good start, and HEVRA repair places growing.
Such fascinating viewing, Andrew. What immediately springs to mind is how less messy EV repairs generally are compared to "traditional" ice repairs. Every mechanic I've every known is always covered in oil and grease. These guys look fresh out of the shower! And as for the simplicity of the repair... no contest. I'll never forget when my wife's crappy Mercedes gearbox failure was nearly fatal many years ago. Long, arduous and bloody expensive to repair!
A very informative and re-assuring video - thanks. Just to put things into perspective, I have just had the 70k mile 'service' to my 2020 Kia e-Niro. Nothing needs touching (brakes etc still original of course) and the battery check shows it remains at 100% - no degradation. Way to go!
I know it's not possible but it would be interesting to see the rogue cell being reused or it's component materials recovered. Brave of those guys to let you film the first time they had done this job. Gives me confidence i can keep my 6y old 2nd generation leaf going indefinitely. Thanks Andrew.
Well done everyone at the EV workshop repairing this Nissan Leaf, It proves all the nay sayers wrong who say these EV's will be in the scrapyard when the battery pack bad. It's very interesting that one dead cell in the main battery pack can bring down the whole pack. Great to know there are now garages around the UK doing this kind of work.
Cell death is not new. It’s similar issue with a lead acid battery. If not looked after over time one cell could fail to accept a charge and the whole battery is kaput.
I was always uneasy about keeping my 2020 Nissan Leaf beyond 6 or 7 years, but now dud cells can be so easily replaced I am more confident of keeping it longer term.
You do sometimes find that in a pack of a fairly high number of cells ( a Leaf has around a 100 I think ) that out of the cell total, at least some will perform slightly worse than the rest. Slight variances in the production process of the cells can readily cause this.
All battery packs should be modular so they can be repaired, unfortunately some manufacturers like Tesla are using structural foam which can't be repaired, all that can be done is recycled which is a shame when only 1 cell is damaged. Good video btw.
I know RUclips won't let me continue this conversation on your reply. So this to say that I watched this video again and paused it to find the name, looked them up, found out where they were and we had a drive out to find them on Sunday. Easy peasy lemon squeezy, straight down the old Thanet way, ten minutes, maybe a quarter of an hour, no problem. Can't thank you enough my friend, I shall contact them for my next service and for any other needs in the meantime.👍
Great video. Steve knows his stuff and explains the procedure well. It's worth pointing out too that evs mostly don't require much servicing during their life so paying for this sort of work is acceptable.
Fantastic to show these superstars working away and giving so much confidence that fixes are possible. No landfills were harmed in the making of this video. Great stuff!!! 👏
Good video. Problems I see is that this is a 9 year old battery that has a cell failure, you replace the faulty cell (a) with a used one that could fail, (b) any of the other cells may well fail at any time. There are many other components that have a limited life span but can take out the entire power system. Resale values of Ev's is terrible and getting worse. This approach may help but may not. Insurance issues, even new vehicles with minor battery damage are scrapped as the risk of failure is too high in their opinion. Whilst I'm in favour of electric vehicles, their cost, charging and maintenance issues as well as some safety issues make them problematic. Many practical issues to solve. As for someone saying this is better than a snapped cambelt on an ICE, well get the cambelt changed and that won't happen. (results may vary) especially on Ford Ecoboost and other welt belt systems.
Wet belt systems seem to cause problems in petrol motors only. Petrol in the motor oil destroys the belt, not the oil. So (nearly) no problem in diesel motors. I will wait another 5-10 years before even thinking about buying an EV. Leasing one - no problem.
Great video to show the non-believers how relatively easy it is to replace just one faulty cell and make the car live again. Bet the owners are well chuffed! Looking forward to part three.
Brilliant cliff-hanger ending! Really good to see the process, I guess a pack which has cooling will be a bit more complex, but it shows the naysayers that think the entire battery goes into landfill that it's fixable. Looking forward to Part 3 and nice to see the owner was happy to be filmed.
Official stats tell us that less than 10% of these crap batteries are recycled. Even if an EV had a battery that lasted twenty years all it would mean is that someone suffered for twenty years with stress and misery of owning a piece of miserable junk!
I'd be more confident getting pretty much any other used EV irrespective of its age. The Leaf, unfortunately, is just relatively unique in having such poor battery thermal management.
Looks quite straightforward really. When you see videos of ICE car engines that have spun bearings being stripped down and repaired, this is much simpler and cleaner.
@@MrEVtotally and also having seen Dala EV do something similar it was not surprising to see a middle cell at the back of the pack fail, so relatively simple to diagnose.
A great video to show those that say ‘you’ll need a new battery in your EV and it will cost you £10k’. In reality people will get individual cells replaced just like this!
And they already are.....particularly with the Leaf, as the oldest examples are now 10+ years old. The Nissan Leaf isn't the best example of EV technology, and today's EV's are vastly superior in their battery tech and performance. Cleveleys Electric Vehicles rom Gloucestershire for example, run a fleet of MG5 electric estate cars. One particular 71 reg example of theirs has now covered 130k miles, with the battery still showing 92% state of health. These cars are used for a 24/7 call out service, hence the very high mileage.
When you’re dealing with a 600 volt or 800volt platforms this is a whole new ball game. Also there are so many battery variations in the Electric Car market. The Nissan Leaf is like the game boy basic electric car product. Hope you have a defibrillator near your service bay.
This is a first generation car that new did 73 miles range. Now the range is 226 miles. But even the lower range suits a lot of people. Our electric car is mainly used doing a 15 mile round trip 4 days a week. It suits us but not everyone.
Sadly I wasn't able to wait for the replacement cell to charge, so the final footage is from the guys at The EV Workshop. You can see the stickiness of the replacement silicon seal when they're putting the pack back on but yes, it would be interesting to know more about that.
Very informative video. Clearly a place that likes their job and does it well. Very refreshing to see. I reckon we’ll see these Leafs driving round for many years to come. And they’re the first gen tech with no thermal management. Imagine how things like the Model 3 will last given how good their battery management is
Such an interesting video. Seeing the cell replacement from start to finish somewhat demystifies the process and shows it can be done if a car needs it. I can see why you’re pleased with this video. 😊👏🏻
we used to build Lithium Ion Batteries of this size and and even larger capacity. Ivwas the engineer that had to approve every procedure for working on these things to ensure we had minimized the risks to the people and the building. Lithium ion batteries always involve some risk when building, testing and/or repairing them. Even in a state of low charge they contain enough energy to produce serious burns, electric shock or an electrocution. Working with energy storage devices like this requires gloves to protect from an electric shock, leather over gloves to protect the electric shock gloves from damage, hearing protection, face shield and outer clothing that is flame resistant with cotton undergarments or another fabric that will not melt into your skin. You should also have everyone CPR trained and a defibrillator available.
Great to see that a faulty cell can be replaced, relatively easily. Really interesting to see the procedure. This fact needs to be shown more as in general it will be one cell out of many that is bad, the rest will keep going for a long time.
Thank-you for this video. I'm a retired electrical engineer (both high power and logic level) and petrol-head so seeing the internals of a battery pack and how it fits in the car is very interesting. Sadly the EV specialists and support/charging infrastructure have a very long way to go before they match existing ICE competition. This is will be the future of motoring for quite some time.
This is the future of local garages. Either adapt or get out of business. There should be a massive re-schooling of mechanics be going on right now. Governments should set the right conditions for this, like e.g. force all manufacturers to supply required info that allows other garages to work on the HV components of their cars. There's still a long road ahead but good to see that there are people out there who do bother to learn and renew.
Great video - hopefully gives some confidence to people considering an older LEAF. It will be interesting how the newer, temperature controlled EVs get on with this going forwards - it still seems to be overwhelmingly only LEAFs having to have battery repairs so far I think.
Toyota had an even earlier start (15+ years ago) with the Prius, but sat on their hands and didn't bother to evolve the car into a full EV. Instead they watched Nissan develop the Leaf, bring it to market, and sell hundreds of thousands of them... Toyota didn't just miss the train. They failed to make it to the station on time...
Not uncommon for early adopters of new tech. They incur the high development and production costs, high advertising and sales costs converting the market to accept the new tech. Suppliers who enter later reap the benefit. It’s like having a team of boxers wear down a Mike Tyson in his prime. The first few will get smashed, after a while, even mediocre boxers will make a hit.
It is good to see that battery repair or replacement is now something that can be done locally. I am guessing that as an industry, this is getting more and more common. I don't need any repairs, but it is good to know there is somewhere so local to me, so if I ever do need the work, I don't have to travel too far. I remember Fully Charged doing a video in the same vein, but having to go over to the Nederland's to have a battery repaired.
Well done. Quite funny that you guys used RC Modelling chargers. Which is a very smart move as RC Modelling has been using All kinds of Nicad/Nimh/all kinds of lithium batteries for decades and their chargers are very flexible in adjustment of voltage/current/temperature for decades now.
Really nice to see that a lot of private workshops in the UK are now fixing EVs which in turn lower the cost of repair unlike here in Sweden. The fear of heavy repairs is holding a lot of people back from owning an EV. I have one for a few years now and am very satisfied.
@TheGramophoneGirl Yes Norway is now around 94% EV's ,Finland is also doing well with EV's adaptions, but here not so much. People are still very skeptical, The numbers of EV's here are more than 70% fleets and company's owned. Private owners are low In numbers compared to ICE. Repairs are mainly at main dealers that are wickedly expensive
I found that incredibly interesting. You'd expect the cost of secondhand cells may drop as EVs become more commonplace. I was recently told by a renault dealer that the new scenic etech has battery modules that can be swapped independently rather than the whole pack, but that already seems to be case- not sure why they felt the need to highlight that.
That's interesting about the Scenic. I also would have assumed it's commonplace, but Tesla battery packs are now filled with a sort of foam I think, so perhaps it's not the case for all EVs. I'll try to find out that information when I review EVs.
Superb video, thank you. Am I the only one though that sees this Lithium battery pack as a potential explosive device? The power density is very significant, yet I did get the impression it's discharged before work. I wouldn't take it apart in proximity of the customer's car, also wouldn't use a standard multimeter to test terminal Voltages. I would like to see a room designed for the repair of these packs, maybe with a large water tank underneath, so that the pack can be very quickly submersed - should things go wrong. Super well ventilated to reduce explosive force/extract fumes/dust quickly, and not in proximity of other battery packs/volatiles. These are just the thoughts of a concerned old man.
Batteries are potentially explosive if miss treated or they develop odd faults. I strongly suggest you should be wearing safety glasses when playing around with them! This is a great video showing that it is relatively easy to diagnose and repair the batteries. Manufacturers should really be making things more modular so that it’s much easier to swap out bad cells by simply unplugging and replacing. Ideally the whole industry would have a standard common battery pack that can suit many vehicles and be able to be changed out simply.
I know this is not a "how to do it" video, but there's always a risk that someone will decide to have a go at working on a battery after watching it. So I would recommend to explain the safety a bit more. Once the battery cover is off there are terminals exposed that have a voltage difference of 180V which is still very lethal. You should still be using the high voltage gloves and insulated tools until the stack is out and the bus bar is removed.
Great to see independent garages repairing batteries. Problem is usually when one cell avalanches, another will soon follow... It's what happens on most Lithium powered appliances when the cells are all the same age in the pack, dendrites form with age and its a lucky dip as to which cell gives up first and when the next will follow. Some exceptions are when cells in the middle of a pack experience more heat and fail more quickly, and you may get just the odd one initially in a weaker cell and then nothing for a few more years then several failures in quick succession as normal cells cant hack it any longer. You also get the opposite where some cells on the outer of the pack when they experience cold conditions (+5c or below) especially while charging and fail quicker, this usually results in several cells failing within a short timeline of each other far before their rated life cycle. Follow the golden rule of charge to 80% discharge to 30% from new, never charge below 10c or above 40c, and never using a fast charger just a slow 8kw or below and you should get super a long healthy life from a battery.
I'm a fan of EVs, my next car is highly likely to be a full EV but having been a user of Li-Ion cells for over a decade and a half now I've seen a few cell fires in small packs and it worries me that as cells age they are statistically more likely to fail with flames.
I'm no expert in battery tech but, as I understand it, the cycle count is so much higher in EVs and the battery management so good, the chance of issues like that is far reduced. The closest I've seen to any battery issues was an old laptop I had that was permanently at 100% (due to being plugged into a display). It didn't take long for the battery to fail and start swelling to the point where the case popped open. No fires though, thankfully!
Great video from Dean and his lads, super interesting. You guys should start your own channel. I'm only in Dover and it's great knowing your guys aren't too far should I get any problems in the future.
Excellent video - should be mandatory viewing for EV non believers. Of course not all makes use Nissans construction and non BMS systems so 200,000 miles or more can easily be achieved without major degradation. 👍
I'm surprised that impedence checks weren't done too. A bad or degraded cell can appear fine voltage-wise but the impedance starts going high long before anything else and changing out sagging cells now saves having to do the whole thing again in a couple of years
Now try to source 20 year old semiconductors! Even common as dirt silicon transistors made in the millions twenty years ago like the 2n3055 are now very hard to find brand new!
I'm betting that Jeremy Clarkson and Geoff hates EV's won't be watching. 😉 Great video. Thanks Andrew and thanks to the guys in the workshop. Top job. 👍
Everyone has been told it's doom and gloom when your battery fails, when cost to replace a faulty cell in a Nissan Leaf is no more than having a clutch and mass balance flywheel replaced in an ICE. More people should know the facts instead of the bad publicity.
And a few months later and another cell fails. And another 'clutch' job and that cost😮
I saw the price flash up at the end of the video which gave a price range starting at £700. Replacing the clutch on my diesel Hyundai (which has a solid flywheel) cost £660. That was after 240,000 miles. But if you replace one faulty cell, or module, in a battery, how long is it before another module becomes faulty, and then another? Presumably all the cells in the battery are of similar age, and whilst one cell has to be the first to require replacement, doesn't mean it will be the last.
@@brendanpells912you could make that argument for any ice car as well The clutch goes, then how long before the alternator goes, head casket, spark plugs, engine, etc, etc. All that comes with owning a car. Things will fail at some point as the car ages.
@@brendanpells912 If you've done 240,000 miles on one clutch you've done very well. On modem cars these days you are also advised to change the mass balance flywheel. To replace the clutch, mass balance flywheel plus labour and consumables on small to medium sized cars, prices start at £700. Depending upon make and model they can cost as much as £1200. If you go to the main dealer, just double the lower price.
I agree another cell could fail on an old car with battery degradation, but cambelt, gearbox or engine failure could also happen to an ICE.
@@davec1768 As I say, my car is a Hyundai, doesn't have a DMF, doesn't have a cam belt, engine and gearbox still running fine at 296,000 miles. Last time I had an engine failure was in 2002, Rover Metro 1.1.
Andrew - Hats off to the owner for letting you film this. We wish him well and also thank you for the interesting and informative video. Fascinating stuff. Clarkson wont be happy as he thinks they all get thrown away after 3 years! 🤣
This DVLA KILLER LAW will scare the C&*P out of anyone....
Battery boxes(in the boot) in conversions can no longer be bolted down and the only option is GLUE.....
Using bolts is classed as a modification to the car and the DLVA then question the cars existence...
Glue to hold a battery box down that could weigh 150kg or more...
Now that 150kg in an impact and inertia and glue failure weighs 300,400,500......kg that`s now heading for survivors in crashes...
The same rules apply to motor mounts no drilling or welding to secure motors... already seen motor & battery mounts just resting on chassis legs in the engine bay DVLA say it`s 110% legal & and illegal if bolted down securely using new holes.
As an ex mechanic. This job looks so much easier than fixing a car where the cam belt has snapped.
But doesn't cost any less.
There was a graphic that said that job is between £700 and £1400.
Not sure many ICE cars can be fixed for that after a snapped cam belt. Or stretched timing chain in a modern BMW for example.
@@PeterStaniforth Than a snapped (not replacement) cambelt, way cheaper.
@@idrisddraig2 If you're lucky enough to have a none interference engine (which is rare) that is.
Cam belt isn't going to electrocute you if you get it wrong though😮
Good job well done Lads. Thanks for showing us the whole process and letting us into your workshop. To be frank, Its been a bit of a dark art to date which scares potential new and secondhand EV buyers and car dealers off. I'm just glad to know that sometime in the near future our children won't have to inhale toxic diesel and petrol emissions outside their school gate. Have a great day all who watch this channel.
@@chrisd924 totally! I hope this video encourages more mechs to get the extra training and equipment as well as reassuring EV owners and buyers.
absolutely, and those drivers at the school gates leave their engines running for ages so their little didums can have a warm/cool car. How totally thoughtless.
No because Chinese kids will be doing it instead.
Oh how I miss the shed full of old diesel reek. Happy days.
I do agree with your sentiments however it's not changing a thing globally. You're just exporting your fumes to china where they now have over 1100 coal powered power plants and are building hundreds more (2 coal plant permits per week are approved on average). When you look at the wider picture this "green" agenda is insanity.
Absolutely fascinating. One of your best videos… well done.
And credit to that young lad for developing specialist skills in an emerging industry… he’ll be happily employed for life
sorry doubt it, EVs are not the way forward best get trained up on hydrogen stop it with all this muskism he is a
@@stefenmitchell4112 There are currently 1.2million BEVs in the UK, going up around 300,000 per year, even if FCEVs are the future car manufacturers are all in on BEVs at the moment, so the skills to diagnose and repair what will end up being millions of cars will see many mechanics employed for many many years.
@@stefenmitchell4112 Where can I fill my Hydrogen car up? I live near Liverpool in the UK. Meanwhile, my BEV is rarely parked up more than a few feet from a 13 amp socket.
@@stefenmitchell4112 If you feel that way about EV's, why the hell are you even here? So you can fill others with your unknowledgeable negative thinking? Go away.
EV Workshop in Herne Bay are brilliant. Always helpful and knowledgeable! I strongly recommend, if you are in the southeast!
Watching this made me tempted to drive down from Sheffield to use them, seem like nice guys.
Great to hear!
This is awesome to see. More garages need to be learning this stuff. It's lost business going forward as the percentage of EVs rises. Big thanks to Dean & Cameron for the explanations & insight.
Fanastic to highlight a local garage that has embraced the latest tech and future of motoring! Thanks Mr.EV.
Both guys in my local village garage are HEVRA certified to work on electric vehicles....
Actually, it should be 'Mr V' - to be compatible with how they spell SILICON[E] in the caption. Sheesh.
They can smell money more like!
10 years in R&D electronics.
This is what we called phase B testing.
It's where people pay to test it.
Very few BEVs made so far will still viable by 2035.
It's not the battery life any more than designed in limited lifespan.
We have had electric forklift for many years. On average cell replacements happen every few months. Reason I wouldn't touch a ev.
The issue with EV or even ICE repairs nowadays is manufacturers deliberately making repairs difficult or even impossible. Which is why right to repair is important.
I couldn't agree more. Especially when the battery is the main cost of a vehicle.
This.
The Nissan leaf is a sweet spot for relatively easy repair and battery tech which has significantly improved.
In this age of green issues, recycling etc it seems extremely odd that car manufacturers make repairs and recycling of parts so difficult and expensive. Mercedes code all the main elements like gearbox and such which means they cannot be used for recycling in another vehicle and John Deere in USA do the same with their tractors making on the fly repair impossible. Very sad state of affairs.
Isn't the right to repair an EU thing. Just sayin'.😂😂
@@nomis3045Same problem with range rover. Even the towing controller for the electronics has to be coded to the car. You can't just take one off one vehicle and put on another. There's no reason for this other than making it difficult to do without visiting a dealer and buying a new one. Should be made illegal.
I’ve been an auto mechanic for 20 years and enjoy watching this. I keep telling people that battery packs can be repaired for the most part. Great Video
Although EV battery repairs will come as a heart stopping shock to the "if the battery gets scratched, the car is a write-off" crowd, because most of them belong to the " I'm not interested in the facts, I've already made my mind up " gang.
They are modular so every pack can be repaired. Even if it means an exchange unit.
Tesla model 3 and model Y batteries are much harder to repair as the individual little cells are all glued together with some kind of polyurethan glue.
With warranty?
This DVLA KILLER LAW will scare the C&*P out of anyone....
Battery boxes(in the boot) in conversions can no longer be bolted down and the only option is GLUE.....
Using bolts is classed as a modification to the car and the DLVA then question the cars existence...
Glue to hold a battery box down that could weigh 150kg or more...
Now that 150kg in an impact and inertia and glue failure weighs 300,400,500......kg that`s now heading for survivors in crashes...
The same rules apply to motor mounts no drilling or welding to secure motors... already seen motor & battery mounts just resting on chassis legs in the engine bay DVLA say it`s 110% legal & and illegal if bolted down securely using new holes.
Amazing work by EV workshop hope you boys get the recognition and work you deserve. Keep providing a quality service and I'm sure you will have recommendations for as long as you want.
Thanks for showing this repair. It demystifies what a lot of prospective (and current) buyers need to know if the second hand market is to prosper. Watched a HEVRA accredited garage repair of a small battery component filmed by JP.
IIRC HEVRA helped with that fix.
Clear to see “repairability” wasn’t high priority for Nissan battery designers. “Just replace the battery pack and skip the old one.” 🙄
Like most things these days just toss and replace.
It hurts seeing those expensive hv insulating gloves used without cover gloves to protect them from cuts.
Once the insulating gloves are damaged they need replacing.
Those gloves look flimsy compared to to hv rated gloves I’ve seen elsewhere. Maybe they aren’t hv rated?
A really good video. Thank you. Dean & Cameron did a great job. You left us on a real cliff hanger..!
Very interesting. I'm an electrician and a car enthusiast so that all made perfect sense, thank you for taking the time to record it.
Great video, Andrew, really useful to see that not all is lost if there is a traction battery problem. Looks like the front left tyre needs changing though, very worn 🙂. I remember seeing a video some time ago when Robert Llewellyn upgraded his Nissan Leaf 24kwh battery from a 2011 car to a 40kwh battery that fitted into the same space. He then was able to say it was a 180m range car after the upgrade.
The buyer did consider a 40kWh battery but it was just too much money.
That is one of the most interesting videos you have produced. Can't wait for the next episode.
Thanks so much. Great fun to film!
@@MrEV How long did it take to complete the jobs, including charging.
It ended up being about two days of labour, although that included a couple of other things the owner wanted done.
@@MrEV In the future it would be interesting to see them doing a liquid cooled battery. Bjorn Nyland has done a few videos in Norway showing EV battery repairs, perhaps you could follow him lead.
Thank you so much for sharing this interesting multi-part story. I am glad for the new owner to have such a pleasant experience after that rather rough start of his EV ownership.
Very interesting content. Well done Dean & Cameron for literally taking the leaf and getting involved in EV repairs. So much misconception about EV batteries but you boys make it look so routine! 👏
Good job Dean, Cameron & Dean. Fascinating to see the internal cell structure.
Excellent video, I think what impresses me the most is the guys in the workshop definitely know their stuff. It's really cool to see someone that specialises in this work and has a positive can-do attitude, they really look like they enjoy their work!
Excellent. Here in Brisbane Australia, EV repair is an emerging industry. I’ve been told I own the first BMW i3 sold in Queensland (I bought it second hand). Still going strong but I’m losing range slowly. I just hope EV repairs are embraced soon.
You own an absolute classic. What a car! If mechanics want a future, they really must transition to EV repairs. The laggards will lose business.
Glad to see younger mechanics learning new skills to keep EVs going. Good that the pack can be accessed to replace a bad cell (unlike Tesla!)
One of the most interesting videos on this topic, on YT. Having the right information, working with high voltage and all this plastic (possibly vulnerable) connectors, is key. Keep up the good work! Many thx for uploading this video!
One of your best videos Andrew (and most are great!). Kudos to EV Workshop for being involved and sharing their knowledge too.
Thanks, a real growth business. Many repair garages will need to upskill or lose out. Cleevely have made a good start, and HEVRA repair places growing.
My local garage has two HEVRA certified techies....
Such fascinating viewing, Andrew. What immediately springs to mind is how less messy EV repairs generally are compared to "traditional" ice repairs. Every mechanic I've every known is always covered in oil and grease. These guys look fresh out of the shower! And as for the simplicity of the repair... no contest. I'll never forget when my wife's crappy Mercedes gearbox failure was nearly fatal many years ago. Long, arduous and bloody expensive to repair!
That’s one of the things the mechanics were telling me. They love clean EV work!
A very informative and re-assuring video - thanks. Just to put things into perspective, I have just had the 70k mile 'service' to my 2020 Kia e-Niro. Nothing needs touching (brakes etc still original of course) and the battery check shows it remains at 100% - no degradation. Way to go!
I know it's not possible but it would be interesting to see the rogue cell being reused or it's component materials recovered. Brave of those guys to let you film the first time they had done this job. Gives me confidence i can keep my 6y old 2nd generation leaf going indefinitely. Thanks Andrew.
The cell is totally bad. But the other 3 cells in that module would potentially still be usable in a project. ~0.9kWh
I'd be fascinated too. I'm hoping to film what goes on at a recycling plant - I've been making some enquiries.
Excellent video of technicians doing a job knowing exactly how to do it correctly. I am impressed, and have subscribed. Good work all!
Well done everyone at the EV workshop repairing this Nissan Leaf, It proves all the nay sayers wrong who say these EV's will be in the scrapyard when the battery pack bad. It's very interesting that one dead cell in the main battery pack can bring down the whole pack.
Great to know there are now garages around the UK doing this kind of work.
Cell death is not new. It’s similar issue with a lead acid battery. If not looked after over time one cell could fail to accept a charge and the whole battery is kaput.
I was always uneasy about keeping my 2020 Nissan Leaf beyond 6 or 7 years, but now dud cells can be so easily replaced I am more confident of keeping it longer term.
You do sometimes find that in a pack of a fairly high number of cells ( a Leaf has around a 100 I think ) that out of the cell total, at least some will perform slightly worse than the rest. Slight variances in the production process of the cells can readily cause this.
How long will this repair last until another old cell has problems?
You are definitely having a good laugh at daft customers who buy this crap
Good to see competent mechanics at work. Well done.
All battery packs should be modular so they can be repaired, unfortunately some manufacturers like Tesla are using structural foam which can't be repaired, all that can be done is recycled which is a shame when only 1 cell is damaged. Good video btw.
This is one of a few reasons why I didn't go through with a Tesla Model y purchase.
I know RUclips won't let me continue this conversation on your reply.
So this to say that I watched this video again and paused it to find the name, looked them up, found out where they were and we had a drive out to find them on Sunday. Easy peasy lemon squeezy, straight down the old Thanet way, ten minutes, maybe a quarter of an hour, no problem.
Can't thank you enough my friend, I shall contact them for my next service and for any other needs in the meantime.👍
I'm so pleased!
Great video. Steve knows his stuff and explains the procedure well. It's worth pointing out too that evs mostly don't require much servicing during their life so paying for this sort of work is acceptable.
Excellent video! Great to see more local garages getting on board with these repairs.
Thanks Glyn! Good on them for seeing where the future is. I’ve spoken to other mechanics who are terrified of HV systems.
Fantastic to show these superstars working away and giving so much confidence that fixes are possible. No landfills were harmed in the making of this video. Great stuff!!! 👏
Good video. Problems I see is that this is a 9 year old battery that has a cell failure, you replace the faulty cell (a) with a used one that could fail, (b) any of the other cells may well fail at any time. There are many other components that have a limited life span but can take out the entire power system.
Resale values of Ev's is terrible and getting worse. This approach may help but may not.
Insurance issues, even new vehicles with minor battery damage are scrapped as the risk of failure is too high in their opinion.
Whilst I'm in favour of electric vehicles, their cost, charging and maintenance issues as well as some safety issues make them problematic. Many practical issues to solve.
As for someone saying this is better than a snapped cambelt on an ICE, well get the cambelt changed and that won't happen. (results may vary) especially on Ford Ecoboost and other welt belt systems.
Wet belt systems seem to cause problems in petrol motors only. Petrol in the motor oil destroys the belt, not the oil. So (nearly) no problem in diesel motors.
I will wait another 5-10 years before even thinking about buying an EV. Leasing one - no problem.
Thanks for showing us all the details and also telling us about HEVRA … that’s going to be really useful
Interesting and informative and nice/brave of the guys to let you show them at work on youtube. Well done!
Great video to show the non-believers how relatively easy it is to replace just one faulty cell and make the car live again. Bet the owners are well chuffed! Looking forward to part three.
Brilliant cliff-hanger ending! Really good to see the process, I guess a pack which has cooling will be a bit more complex, but it shows the naysayers that think the entire battery goes into landfill that it's fixable. Looking forward to Part 3 and nice to see the owner was happy to be filmed.
Official stats tell us that less than 10% of these crap batteries are recycled. Even if an EV had a battery that lasted twenty years all it would mean is that someone suffered for twenty years with stress and misery of owning a piece of miserable junk!
Looking forward to part 3 . Proves you have to have lots of knowledge when buying older E cars ,but they are fixable.
I'd be more confident getting pretty much any other used EV irrespective of its age. The Leaf, unfortunately, is just relatively unique in having such poor battery thermal management.
great to see a young lad getting to grips with new technology, he will have a bright future I suspect suspect
That was really interesting, thanks ever so much for posting!
Looks quite straightforward really. When you see videos of ICE car engines that have spun bearings being stripped down and repaired, this is much simpler and cleaner.
That's a really good point. I don't know if they said in the video, but that's one of the reasons they love EV work: so much cleaner.
@@MrEVtotally and also having seen Dala EV do something similar it was not surprising to see a middle cell at the back of the pack fail, so relatively simple to diagnose.
We didn't get the cost at the end.
This is a mega important topic to be addressed! People have 0 idea that most battery issues can be fixed
Great video! Really interesting to see the procedures involved in getting to the battery and successfully repairing a fault. Well done.
A great video to show those that say ‘you’ll need a new battery in your EV and it will cost you £10k’. In reality people will get individual cells replaced just like this!
😂😂😂😂
And they already are.....particularly with the Leaf, as the oldest examples are now 10+ years old. The Nissan Leaf isn't the best example of EV technology, and today's EV's are vastly superior in their battery tech and performance. Cleveleys Electric Vehicles rom Gloucestershire for example, run a fleet of MG5 electric estate cars. One particular 71 reg example of theirs has now covered 130k miles, with the battery still showing 92% state of health. These cars are used for a 24/7 call out service, hence the very high mileage.
@@howarthcd Exactly this - I’ve never seen as many dumbasses as on here right now 😂
@@howarthcd I’m sure at the same time as swapping the faulty cell they test the others to make sure they’re ok.
It’s extremely expensive and time consuming to replace just one cell. Let’s hope another cell doesn’t fail next week.
Great video and showcasing the future! Also loved the lo-fi soundtrack!
When you’re dealing with a 600 volt or 800volt platforms this is a whole new ball game. Also there are so many battery variations in the Electric Car market. The Nissan Leaf is like the game boy basic electric car product. Hope you have a defibrillator near your service bay.
This is a first generation car that new did 73 miles range. Now the range is 226 miles. But even the lower range suits a lot of people. Our electric car is mainly used doing a 15 mile round trip 4 days a week. It suits us but not everyone.
Definitely. The guy that bought it really just wanted it for local journeys.
As a second car especially, it would fit a lot of people’s needs.
Good to see ... a bit of a difference from Herne Bay to those doing this in Norway 😃
Impressive standard of workmanship. Only thing I missed there is how you re-seal the battery pack and how the silicon seal is replaced.
Sadly I wasn't able to wait for the replacement cell to charge, so the final footage is from the guys at The EV Workshop. You can see the stickiness of the replacement silicon seal when they're putting the pack back on but yes, it would be interesting to know more about that.
Very informative video. Clearly a place that likes their job and does it well. Very refreshing to see. I reckon we’ll see these Leafs driving round for many years to come. And they’re the first gen tech with no thermal management. Imagine how things like the Model 3 will last given how good their battery management is
Definitely. Most modern EV batteries seem to be lasting far longer than anyone predicted.
Another great video Mr EV! A great explanation to all those people who are hesitant to go electric!
Such an interesting video. Seeing the cell replacement from start to finish somewhat demystifies the process and shows it can be done if a car needs it. I can see why you’re pleased with this video. 😊👏🏻
Thanks Andy!
we used to build Lithium Ion Batteries of this size and and even larger capacity. Ivwas the engineer that had to approve every procedure for working on these things to ensure we had minimized the risks to the people and the building. Lithium ion batteries always involve some risk when building, testing and/or repairing them.
Even in a state of low charge they contain enough energy to produce serious burns, electric shock or an electrocution. Working with energy storage devices like this requires gloves to protect from an electric shock, leather over gloves to protect the electric shock gloves from damage, hearing protection, face shield and outer clothing that is flame resistant with cotton undergarments or another fabric that will not melt into your skin. You should also have everyone CPR trained and a defibrillator available.
That's really interesting. Thank you!
Most informative. Well done garage lads for getting their heads round the new technology - their business has an assured future!
Really interesting how the diagnostics worked and the replacement of the cell. Great seeing the range jump back to life!
Great video. Really complex battery pack 😳 but it’s good to show it is not the doom and gloom many try and tell you!
Great to see that a faulty cell can be replaced, relatively easily. Really interesting to see the procedure. This fact needs to be shown more as in general it will be one cell out of many that is bad, the rest will keep going for a long time.
Thank-you for this video.
I'm a retired electrical engineer (both high power and logic level) and petrol-head so seeing the internals of a battery pack and how it fits in the car is very interesting. Sadly the EV specialists and support/charging infrastructure have a very long way to go before they match existing ICE competition. This is will be the future of motoring for quite some time.
We need more great repair placea like this !!
This is the future of local garages. Either adapt or get out of business. There should be a massive re-schooling of mechanics be going on right now. Governments should set the right conditions for this, like e.g. force all manufacturers to supply required info that allows other garages to work on the HV components of their cars. There's still a long road ahead but good to see that there are people out there who do bother to learn and renew.
I couldn't agree more.
This series of videos has been fascinating... Many thanks to all involved 👏👏
Really interesting video, one of the best in terms of the actual mechanics of changing a cell. Thanks for sharing.
I really enjoyed that! It was a breath of fresh air after all the negativity surrounding EV's
Great to hear. Thank you!
Great video - hopefully gives some confidence to people considering an older LEAF. It will be interesting how the newer, temperature controlled EVs get on with this going forwards - it still seems to be overwhelmingly only LEAFs having to have battery repairs so far I think.
Well done the staff at EV Workshop.
Nissan could have been a leader in EVs. They had a head start
It’s so frustrating isn’t it? Squandered their lead.
Toyota had an even earlier start (15+ years ago) with the Prius, but sat on their hands and didn't bother to evolve the car into a full EV. Instead they watched Nissan develop the Leaf, bring it to market, and sell hundreds of thousands of them... Toyota didn't just miss the train. They failed to make it to the station on time...
indeed, what went wrong?
Not uncommon for early adopters of new tech. They incur the high development and production costs, high advertising and sales costs converting the market to accept the new tech.
Suppliers who enter later reap the benefit.
It’s like having a team of boxers wear down a Mike Tyson in his prime. The first few will get smashed, after a while, even mediocre boxers will make a hit.
It is good to see that battery repair or replacement is now something that can be done locally. I am guessing that as an industry, this is getting more and more common.
I don't need any repairs, but it is good to know there is somewhere so local to me, so if I ever do need the work, I don't have to travel too far. I remember Fully Charged doing a video in the same vein, but having to go over to the Nederland's to have a battery repaired.
Yes, strange that they went to Amsterdam to have that battery changed when Cleevely (who they've also filmed) is down the road from Robert!
Outrageous cliff-hanger... needed the Eastenders outro soundtrack
Very interesting video Andrew and great to see the services that are out there now to do this kind of thing. 👍
Well done. Quite funny that you guys used RC Modelling chargers. Which is a very smart move as RC Modelling has been using All kinds of Nicad/Nimh/all kinds of lithium batteries for decades and their chargers are very flexible in adjustment of voltage/current/temperature for decades now.
I wouldn't touch a Tesla with a barge pole but this video is very encouraging when it comes to other marques. Well done lads.
Really nice to see that a lot of private workshops in the UK are now fixing EVs which in turn lower the cost of repair unlike here in Sweden. The fear of heavy repairs is holding a lot of people back from owning an EV. I have one for a few years now and am very satisfied.
Aren't Norway and Finland really great places to find EV battery repair?
@TheGramophoneGirl Yes Norway is now around 94% EV's ,Finland is also doing well with EV's adaptions, but here not so much. People are still very skeptical, The numbers of EV's here are more than 70% fleets and company's owned. Private owners are low In numbers compared to ICE. Repairs are mainly at main dealers that are wickedly expensive
It's amazing that once the warranty expires, the manufacturer doesn't do much to help you fix the problem other than replacing the entire battery.
I found that incredibly interesting. You'd expect the cost of secondhand cells may drop as EVs become more commonplace. I was recently told by a renault dealer that the new scenic etech has battery modules that can be swapped independently rather than the whole pack, but that already seems to be case- not sure why they felt the need to highlight that.
That's interesting about the Scenic. I also would have assumed it's commonplace, but Tesla battery packs are now filled with a sort of foam I think, so perhaps it's not the case for all EVs.
I'll try to find out that information when I review EVs.
Really interested video, thanks for sharing, and great to see how skilled those guys are
Great video, hope it goes to show the non believers all is not a disaster if a battery cell goes duff
Superb video, thank you. Am I the only one though that sees this Lithium battery pack as a potential explosive device? The power density is very significant, yet I did get the impression it's discharged before work. I wouldn't take it apart in proximity of the customer's car, also wouldn't use a standard multimeter to test terminal Voltages. I would like to see a room designed for the repair of these packs, maybe with a large water tank underneath, so that the pack can be very quickly submersed - should things go wrong. Super well ventilated to reduce explosive force/extract fumes/dust quickly, and not in proximity of other battery packs/volatiles. These are just the thoughts of a concerned old man.
Batteries are potentially explosive if miss treated or they develop odd faults. I strongly suggest you should be wearing safety glasses when playing around with them!
This is a great video showing that it is relatively easy to diagnose and repair the batteries. Manufacturers should really be making things more modular so that it’s much easier to swap out bad cells by simply unplugging and replacing. Ideally the whole industry would have a standard common battery pack that can suit many vehicles and be able to be changed out simply.
I know this is not a "how to do it" video, but there's always a risk that someone will decide to have a go at working on a battery after watching it. So I would recommend to explain the safety a bit more. Once the battery cover is off there are terminals exposed that have a voltage difference of 180V which is still very lethal. You should still be using the high voltage gloves and insulated tools until the stack is out and the bus bar is removed.
No one can be that silly.........🫣
Great to see independent garages repairing batteries. Problem is usually when one cell avalanches, another will soon follow... It's what happens on most Lithium powered appliances when the cells are all the same age in the pack, dendrites form with age and its a lucky dip as to which cell gives up first and when the next will follow. Some exceptions are when cells in the middle of a pack experience more heat and fail more quickly, and you may get just the odd one initially in a weaker cell and then nothing for a few more years then several failures in quick succession as normal cells cant hack it any longer. You also get the opposite where some cells on the outer of the pack when they experience cold conditions (+5c or below) especially while charging and fail quicker, this usually results in several cells failing within a short timeline of each other far before their rated life cycle. Follow the golden rule of charge to 80% discharge to 30% from new, never charge below 10c or above 40c, and never using a fast charger just a slow 8kw or below and you should get super a long healthy life from a battery.
Great video. Fascinating stuff. Good work from the lads.
What a lovely pair of guys , my black leaf 30 could do with an upgrade as it's battery can only do 80 miles in summer and 50 winter
Another cracking and relaxing presentation. Thank you.
I'm a fan of EVs, my next car is highly likely to be a full EV but having been a user of Li-Ion cells for over a decade and a half now I've seen a few cell fires in small packs and it worries me that as cells age they are statistically more likely to fail with flames.
I'm no expert in battery tech but, as I understand it, the cycle count is so much higher in EVs and the battery management so good, the chance of issues like that is far reduced.
The closest I've seen to any battery issues was an old laptop I had that was permanently at 100% (due to being plugged into a display). It didn't take long for the battery to fail and start swelling to the point where the case popped open.
No fires though, thankfully!
That was rather excellent Andrew 👍
Fantastic video and insight into the hard work and dedication that goes into such a repair. Bravi tutti!
Excellent video, well done EV Workshop!
Great video from Dean and his lads, super interesting. You guys should start your own channel. I'm only in Dover and it's great knowing your guys aren't too far should I get any problems in the future.
Very informative to see the whole process. Nice one Mr E V. 😊😊
Excellent video - should be mandatory viewing for EV non believers. Of course not all makes use Nissans construction and non BMS systems so 200,000 miles or more can easily be achieved without major degradation. 👍
Excellent good to see skilled people at work.👍
Was I the only one shouting "use a sharpie to mark the dodgy cell" to begin with?
Great job dudes, keeping this car on the road for another 100k miles
I'm surprised that impedence checks weren't done too. A bad or degraded cell can appear fine voltage-wise but the impedance starts going high long before anything else and changing out sagging cells now saves having to do the whole thing again in a couple of years
So interesting. Definitely keen to find out how much that battery repair cost.
Now try to source 20 year old semiconductors!
Even common as dirt silicon transistors made in the millions twenty years ago like the 2n3055 are now very hard to find brand new!
True. My uncle has made millions buying and selling components like that actually!
I'm betting that Jeremy Clarkson and Geoff hates EV's won't be watching. 😉
Great video. Thanks Andrew and thanks to the guys in the workshop. Top job. 👍
Goeff, my middle name is rant...
who give a sh1t what that Clarkson thinks.