Maximilian & Marie De Bourgogne, fight scene 2: Zweihänder
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- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2024
- Fight scene from the TV series Maximilian & Marie De Bourgogne (2017). Nicely shot and choreographed, yet apparently the weapons and armour are somewhat inaccurate. Zweihänder swords of this type were not used until well into the 1500s yet this is set in 1477; the earliest we see are in the Goliath Fechtbuch of 1510-1520 and without parrying hooks. Maximilian is missing the bevor (gorget) that accompanies the sallet (helmet) and his opponent's pig-faced bascinet is a couple of generations too early. Despite these issues, as historical reconstructions go this is nonetheless enjoyable and gives a feel for what it is like to duel in armour. Because who doesn't like whacking people with massive swords? Feel free to comment on any other issues below.
well at least the armor did what it's supposed to do..unlike some other movies...
TheBikeOnTheMoon I was just thinking that.
Not enough half swording.
TYheBikeOnTheMooyou meant to say "like most movies" didn`t ya?
@Holden Mcgroine Game of Thrones (past season 2/3) became really inaccurate though. People not wearing helmets, everyone wearing some shitty leather armor and slashing people right through it etc.
@Holden Mcgroine I second Whoopsoe DayZ No shields, no spears, no formation. Wierd pike and shield use, bowmen shooting up, letting arrows fall impotently- in real life at least- but here a bit of sharpened wood that has nothing but gravity behind its few grams, is knocking people off their feet...
"Braveheart" all over again. Power of FREDOOM!!!, Rohirrim arrive or some shit like that. If we`d want to pull "GoT" into some kind of "medieval" standard- it dies miserably, even within its own story telling, exactly, because it tries to be "realistic". Simplest example: "Valerian Steel cuts through armor"- ok, but why not through swords??? Swords are made out of hardened steel. Just like plate armor. Whats more shape of plates encourages sliding to the sides, while sword shape, thickness etc. would make it break, as swords tend to cut into each other, while hitting on 90 degrees angles... What, valerian sword is like "oh no no no, i cannot cut through other sword. It has to be at least partially fair... But plate?! Lightsabre!!!", or what???
Dothraki yell and ride into battle without armor, and then are surprised, they get shot... Mongols were winning not because they were wild, but because they were smart, and they were using heavy armor as well, for their best warriors- so linking one to the other is particualry insulting. What else? Mountain has a sword, than no man can lift... Yeah...
Should i go on?
Be mindful, that i am merly pointing shit out, not attacking you... I hope, you are smart enough for that?
1:29 this is perhaps the most terrifying first-person perspective shot I've ever watched
Actually its most thrilling. Yes it's jarring but for adrenaline junkies, it's good safe zweihander fighting lol
Hold my beer, you should see my wifes perspective when im doing her!
The in-helmet shots made it feel real, and reminded me, frankly of my time in afghanistan, the feeling of having to make decisions that could end your life, based on a limited field of view and movement. Bloody terrifying, and really well done here.
In real life it would be even more terrifying becuase the rain would be much louder so you probably couldn´t hear anything besides that. A normal knight would also wear a gambeson hood and perhaps a mail hood underneath that aswell. So you basically couldn´t really see and hear much at all. And like in the scene you can´t look down without turning your entire head down being exposed to the enemy so you couldn´t really see what your opponent is doing either :D Must have been extremely challenging being a good Fighter :D
@@DangeHD a 'gambeson hood' and mail hood with a late 15th century sallet, why do you think they would do that? The helmet in this scene does not reflect a real helmet.
You train to fight as a professional under what circumstances you are going to endure. The vision and feeling of the armour shouldn't really add to the fear of fighting beyond the fear of the fight itself.
I don’t honestly remember the last time I saw a tv show or movie depict a fight like this and make sure to give such stark portrayal of how limited and claustrophobic the fighters vision and hearing would have been.
I found it terrifying those shots. I was like, they see so little how is anyone supposed to fight like this? Trust your skill and hope your opponent stays in your vision?
@@kimoenen9301 I've worn half helms a few times, and hated it. Your ability to hear is pretty strongly reduced, and your field of vision is shafted...You spend a lot of time moving just to keep your opponent in your front sight. I'd hate to have to do it in the rain, that's for sure.
@@Fluffykeith That seems extra bad. I mean if you can't see much, you rely on your hearing more.
I think it would be easier to defeat your opponent if you make them dizzy first and with this, that seems relatively easy.
Those weren't dueling armor tho...
germans are good at war movies
The missing bevor is not the problem. The missing padding underneath the helmet is the problem.
Hounskull aventail bascinet (without aventail xd and too big eyelets) is problem too... That type of helmet was not used after the early 15th century.
The helmet should have built-in padding.
@@kristofantal8801 Its use in Italy seems to have ceased around 1380, but continued in Germany into the 15th century, so there was probably some overlap with the Sallet. Still a stretch.
@@falsebeliever8079 The bascinet-type helmet itself was used even after the early 15th century, yes, but not the aventail variant! The great bascinet variant is where the mail aventail has been replaced with plates. This version gradually replaced the former mail variant in the early 15th century and was used in field combat until the middle of the 15th century, while in tournaments until the 16th century.
So if the knight in this series had worn a great bascinet helmet, it would be perfectly fine since that type was used in tournaments in the late 15th century, but since he doesn’t wear that type but the old version, it’s wrong.
:)
Perfectly normal for a helmet to having a padded lining built in.
Medieval times were all just rain, grey and brown tones everywhere and everybody were angry and gloomy. Also nobody wore any colors except black, brown and grey.
Back, brown grey colors... which even in our days are very hard to obtains...
Don`t forget- they were also smeared in shit!
Actually, the only legit color in this scene is black, that was pretty popular amongst nobles in 1470's Burgundy. Let's say they were right with 1 out of the 3 colors, okay ?
@@RedemptiametallicusThe problem is they didn't even gave them the black color bacause of the fact that Burgundians liked black in this time period but just because it's medieval time so everybody was dressed like metal bands and homeless people.
@@johntheknight3062 Actually black coloured clothes were really expensive at that time. That is why so many families wore it.
"yes, let me swing this ZWEIhander, EINS handed"
Don't be that guy, it's possible to use it with one hand there's even drawings in manuscripts; Sure it wasn't common but it's not unlikely.
@@alexion2001 I mean with all the other historical inaccuracies.... yeah I'm calling that out. They each use the ZWEIhander properly (two handed), what, 6 times in total?
@@hansyolo8277 Yeah, but they do use other proper two handed sword techniques such as half-handing
@@jowolf2187 they don't really and something being 'historical' doesn't make it right. They grip the blade of the sword...but they're still trying to slash each other
@@7dayspking If im not mistaken then sweihander was somewhat designed to be slashing weapon. I read/saw somewhere that it was mostly used against not so armored targets. Like city guards and what not were hauling these swords around.
Its pretty good defence to spin that thing around against multiple unarmored thugs.
Anyway, im no expert so feel free to disagree.
The camera work through the visor really got my heart going. It seems to have brought back memories I do not have from this life.
This show is such a fantastic depiction of this time period. The first shot showing Matthias Corvinus looks straight out of a painting (really good casting on part of Corvinus). The music and atmosphere is superb and I really love the soldiers with the kettle helms (Eisenhut). They look absolutely menacing.
At least they're half-swording guys, come on!
@@Mode-Selektor Wearing a sallet without a bevor is a big no no...
@@Mode-Selektor Of course it happened. You're in camp, you have removed most of your armor to rest. Suddenly your camp is under attack and you grab your helmet and put it on while rushing to meet the enemy, there is no time to put the bevor on. Or you're a lowly common soldier, wearing a sallet without bevor as salvage.
However this is a duel, in managed conditions. People fighting the duel are nobility. Not wearing a bevor for a duel is simply IDIOTIC in this context. CONTEXT MATTERS.
@@MikeKnell2884 stfu nerd
@@Mode-Selektor So you claim there was a duel or other kind of combat where someone CHOSE to fight to the death without neck protection, exposing their neck area deliberately?
@@Mode-Selektor There may be duels that people choose not to wear bevors for some very specific reason. But generally, it would be much wiser to wear one. Because it was a duel, there was always possibility that you were killed "accidentally". Staying alive is more important than killing opponents and don't hope something like "Oh, this was just a duel, my opponent is super careful and polite, he will never accidentally hit me in the neck".
See those jousting armors, they are heavier, far more restricted than field armors, why did people choose to wear them although opponents want to aim at the target shield, not the neck.
Honestly this was fucking amazing from a historical fight perspective. Yet they may be using their two handed swords like giant clubs and not wearing a berber or a cloth cap, but they are still using half swording techniques while fighting in proper plate. It was nice to see this change in pace.
Those big zweihanders were by no means a duelling weapon, and would work better as a club than a cutting weapon in a armor v armor scenario. They were mainly battlefield weapons employed more like a spear than anything else.
@@TheMikeBravo you don't know shit about zweihänder
@@ernesterz You don't know shit about montantes
@@nicolasmoreno9143 1) they were used in duels, there is evidence of this, and it's understandable because they look cool. The armor cannot be sliced of course but it's there to prevent you from die. The pure force behind the strike still do damage, but not enough to kill your armoured opponent accidentally in a duel, and that's perfect.
2) they were used in battlefield of course, but also in everyday life by bodyguards or people with similar jobs, as with it you can occupy a lot of space and deal with multiple opponents at the same time.
3) they were not used much like a spear (that are longer, more efficient and cheaper) and the only time they used them this way was if they were charged by cavalry. In the battlefield they were used to break pike walls with wide swings. The opposite of a spear.
Should i continue?
@@ernesterz Of course, continue.
Not the best stage fighting, but points for the inside the visor camera shots.
Yes, awful. I'm going to have to abdicate the throne of my kingdom if these guys are ever allowed to fight without a bevor again!11
Those swords are really heavy man.
"I challenge you to a duel in full armor but only if the rain is pouring so that the ground is extra slippery. Sir."
There was this one french guy who requested a duel and then tried to get out of said duel by requesting changes (time, place, weapons) over 30 times.
Yeah they armor and weapons were somewhat inaccurate for the period in which this was supposed to take place, but at least it was mostly accurate for any historical period. That's a hell of a lot better than what most movies do.
Everything was somewhat inaccurate and most things were unrelated to history.
If only they weren't heaving around constantly (but that's more the actor/stunt double's fault)
Odd choice to not wear a bevor to protect his lower face.
Be greatfull that they give him an helmet
You mean so you can walk around like you've got a neck brace? Second point: When you already know it's tempting the enemy, it's called a ruse.
He was a Habsburg, their chins need no protecting from the sword, the sword needs protection from the Hapsburg chin.
After reading RUclips comments, they renamed the show "Crazy Frenchman who wears sallet without a bevor"
@Anthony Beatty Austrian!
@Anthony Beatty Very funny!
@@tubekulose At that time in history we Austrians called ourselves German. He is right in calling him German, but you are also right in calling him Austrian.
@@alexanderrosner6500 Ja, natürlich weiß ich was er gemeint hat und auch, dass er damit prinzipiell Recht hat. Ich wollte nur in Erinnerung rufen, dass Maximilian wie viele gute Kaiser des HRR ein Habsburger war. :-)
@@alexanderrosner6500 Ach ja, und sag nun bloß nicht, dass die Habsburger ursprünglich aus der Schweiz stammen, sonst werde ich grantig!!! (war nur humoristisch gemeint - Alles bestens!) ;-)
If movies have taught me anything, it's that there was no smiling until sometime in the 1950's, because there was nothing to smile about.
And then in the fifties, smiling became mandatory.
No. This smiling is artificial British politeness that has no real meaning behind it all and worthless. The eyes say that one does not care but the smile and how are you represent pretensious friendliness . It is not widely accepted in many parts of the world besides Canada, USA and Great Britain.
Mona Lisa is smiling and she was painted 1503-1506.
@@JDSFLA True, kind of a half-smile though. What was she thinking?
By the last quarter of the 15th-century full armor was virtually sword-proof, which is why many skulls found in battlefield mass graves of that period show many fatal wounds inflicted by crushing weapons such maces, war hammers, and poleaxes, or penetrations by spiked weapons like the bec de corbin.
or daggers...
@@alinmeleandra3175
Those were greatswords, a bit different (those in the film are a bit too small).
Reach of a polearm and huge mass.
Like from 2.5kg to over 3.5, you can use those weapons to trust in a duel like with a polearm trusting to penetrate or swing and use them for their main purpose, battlefield.
Anyway, even if you won't pass the best full plate armour (And yes, not all armour were perfect) you will still crush bones and discharge a lot of inertia on the body.
Without even considering a full hit on the neck or the head, you will just die.
Those things hurt in sparring and we use the foam one (in HEMA) with a good helmet...
Yep, it has a lot of to put on underneath padding, mail and so on, missing which would take the flow out of the scene..
Everyone is just like “why no bevor?” And I’m sitting here like “... so what did you call no coifs before the battle??”
1:20, I love that shot; the way his opponent stands there motionless for a solid few seconds with such an awkward posture resembles something like a chess piece. Very good scene, and I far as I know accurate to medieval duels as well.
As you know is wrong then, this isn't accurate to any type of real combat.
@@evn2787 Armour doesn't do what it's supposed to do, how the hell was that guy defeated? he was barely touched and yet he was dropped, it's like he was wearing plastic.
Both guys seemed to think they could kill each other by stabbing each other as well. Both were convinced the armour doesn't work and they tried to make those moments suspenseful as if we were to believe they could really be killed by those attacks. This is the same criticism I had of 'The King', that both the filmmakers and fighters are treating the armour as if it doesn't work even if they don't explicitly show it failing. I bet if the director wanted one of these characters to die and they were unimportant that they would slice right through the armour.
@@evn2787 This is very frustrating, you did not read my comment properly at all.
"that both the filmmakers and fighters are treating the armour as if it doesn't work even if they don't explicitly show it failing".
During the duel both of them are trying to slice each other with their swords, neither of them land a hit. On the ground one of them comes down with a thrust that would have landed straight on the armour but the other guy rolls out of the way. The point is they're fighting as if they believe these attacks are dangerous even if logically they're not at all. The point is the directors are trying to make us believe if these cuts land that one of the characters will die.
What about this don't you understand? If they truly thought their armour worked, neither of the guys dueling in the King would be fighting anything like they are.
@@7dayspking hmmmm yeah im done mate u are a lost cause so is this conversation, bye
@@7dayspking
You are one of the most annoying kids in this comment section who watched a few youtube videos and believes he is a HEMA expert.
You haven't touched a sword nor an armor in your entire life
He lost because he didn’t +5 chaos gem it
wat rings u got bithc
Why does everybody keep saying he doesn’t have a beaver. Just leave beavers alone
Ikr
Now everybody is a professor in the comments
It’s a video about a late medieval duel with niche swords. No shit people who are good with the topic are going to be attracted to it and no shit that their going to comment when the video gets things wrong
Yep, everyone's an expert... It's just a movie LOL
@@leewriter4656 then of what importance is it too you?
Actually I have a masters degree in uninformed opinion.
Yep, everyone's an expert.
someone post this on shad, metatron or skallagrimm.
Matt Easton
Oh dear...
I’m not trying to be a kill joy here but I really didn’t like that he wore a sallet with no bevor. That just left his throat way too exposed. It was clear from the first person perspective that he couldn’t see low strikes so why would you leave your neck and throat exposed like that ?
Because it is called "Cinematic Inaccuracy".
With historical accuracy, a chainmail hood would fix that. But the first person perspective is pure bullshit anyway, the field of view should be far better.
There were plenty of times a sallet was worn without a bevor.
Whether you're trying to be or not, a killjoy you are.
It’s not like people always wore bevors, they are detachable for a reason, it helps to breath without something obstructing
Ok, for all the Bevor comments: Yes a Sallet should be worn with a Bevor.
Yes, this is even more necessary when you are a prince fighting in a tournament.
Yes, it leaves a giant opening (the only one on his whole body, mind you) for the opponent to try and hit.
HOWEVER: 1.) He is indeed a prince, going for the one hit that could actually kill or maim him is a good way to find out if the extra weight of your armor will make your neck snap when they hang you.
2.) We have had nigh a decade of Game of Thrones, where dudes were casually going into tournaments and battles with NO HELMS at all, and you are choosing to piss at the one series that seems to at least try. Why?
3.) Artistic License is a thing, and having him be able to quickly take off his helmet was necessary for this scene (yes, it should have been worked around, but I am willing to give this series, that actually tries with its arms and armor, a single pass)
4.) Yes, all us HEMA and historical nerds in general know why no Bevor is a bad idea (some of us through first hand experience) but the majority of any audience absolutely will not, and there is a good chance a big chunk of the people who made this scene did not as well. Give them a break.
If you want to go through the whole series and review and criticize it, have fun, I will watch the video. I just ask that you at least try a compliment sandwich every now and then, there is so much good going on in this series, and I don't want future producers to look at the hate for the small detail problems and say, "Well, there is no pleasing the martial history crowd, so why even bother?" And thus you get the Hobbit trilogy (need I say any more on that?)
Guys, GoT is basicly NOT a historical series!!! It is fantasy... However Maximilian is not a fantasy set, soo yes, it must be criticized. Ok, no bevor, but then, his full plate armour not fully authentic, Zweihänder
type of great sword was not common in the late 1470's yet, and was not a typical duel sword... Oh and the other guy helmet is fully wrong: that type of helmet is a hounskull camail (camail must be but in this video I don't see camail or aventail, so wrong again, sadly) bascinet, which was out of favor after the early 15th century... In the end, again, The Hobbit is a fantasy movie trilogy, not historical, so no critics from historical perspects.
Best representation of a fully armored duel in film period.
"The king"
@@badder9525 What do you mean "The King" ?
@@Outland9000 its a movie onnetflix
@@badder9525 That's worse and this one isn't very good either. A lot of Japanese films have better armoured fighting because they use polearms and treat the armour with more respect than either of these films.
What I mean is they use a polearm like a polearm should be used and that inherently makes the fighting better for armoured combat...than trying to hack with the blade of the sword against full armour like both of these films did.
I liked the Camera angles and the armor, except for who was undoubtedly the protagonist, as he did not wear a Bevor, the fighting seemed sloppy but entertaining, you can't expect directors to actually care 100% about accuracy. The rain also looked very neat to me, but as a blacksmith, part of me became enraged and the other part of me died, I tell my friends and family to not get metal shit wet, but it still happens. Back to the camera angles I really liked the parts where it was from his perspective inside the helmet, very nice, though his face is a little to close to the eye slit to be practical, and the eye slit also looks a little too tall and open, the Bevor, again is my only real gripe, in how he refuses to wear one.
There's a major problem with this fight. And it's not the bevor. It's the fact that the guy the protagonist is fighting is wearing a century old bascinet that seems to have been made out of papier-mâché. The rest of his kit also looks like shit. In comparison, Maximilan's armor is pretty nice, bevor aside (in another context it would have been possible for him to not wear one). Oh. And of course the Zweihänders. Way too early for it to be used.
Well a bevor can hinder your breathing a lot. So I can see why some people might prefer not to wear one. That again however raises the question why nobody put breathing slits in the bevor. Doesn't seem to be something only a genius could figure out ...
@@Anathror I would same Maximilan's armour is about the quality I would like to expect on a hidden extra. His opponent's armour outright isn't armour, it's terrible. Far more wrong with Maximilian's shambles of a harness than just the missing Bevor, it's damned ugly.
Other guy doesn't have a bascinet, he's clearly wearing a few bent spades over his head.
@@derdingsreturnsnochmal5177 A lot of bevors especially of this period for the god damn holy roman emperor were articulated. Even with it pulled down below the mouth it would cut off most strikes from below. More importantly though bevors and Gorgets are heavily featured in art even for less heavily armed soldiers. Seems like the bevor was a number 1 or 2 priority.
Finally look at this fight...who would trade the strong likelihood of being skewered in the neck to very slightly improve their breathing?
@@7dayspking
There was never a strong likelihood of being skewered in the neck because this wasn’t a duel to the death. This was an “I’m gonna kick your ass” duel.
the helmet shots are really a good thought!
I wonder why during the first person shots it sounds like that man has difficulties breathing when that sallet helmed DOES NOT HAVE A BEVOR. There is nothing there that forbids him to just breath with ease.
How about physical exertion and heavy armor?
@@tyrfang That shouldnt matter until a few minutes in at least, but it happens immideatly
It happens fast, have you ever fought with heavy armor? The guy was just panting. I fought with a heavy sword, gambeson and protective gear before, it tires you fast.
@@tyrfang If you're panting after circling slowly for 30 seconds and a few light exchanges, you are going to drop dead after 2 minutes. Not so realistic. Yes, it's tiring, but someone who's fit and used to it, shouldn't start panting violently after 1 minute of barely fighting.
@@GamelessOne You forget that stress and adrenalin can also make you pant like that. I remember i used to pant just like that 20-30 seconds before every fotball match.
I really like the description of the video :o
Nobody expected your comment.
Everyone talking about the no bevor but nobody talking about how they were fighting in the rain and somehow standing
Rly good fight scene, more realistic than most
A certain king hated this type of duel. Broken fingers be annoying lol
Dude, unscrew the pummel🤣🤣🤣👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
Now I understand why Zweihandlers can't hit anything in vanilla Medieval 2: Total War
Fucking hell that bug pisses me off. Can't play that game without Stainless Steel.
I like the perspective from inside the helmet, the heavy breathing, you dont really see much and adrenaline rushes through your veins
Wish this was on Netflix.
2:55 "Parry this you filthy casual"
Just discovering this scene now. Brilliant! 👏
Not only is the timing wrong, but these are not swords for knights. They are not designed to fight against other swordsmen, but to break open a formation of pikemen. They are specialist weapons for mercenaries, not for duels.
although you are right, greatswords were also used in duels I have several translations of manuals that refer to such. Firstly there is Goliath which shows dueling with the greatsword, then there are several shorter manuals that refer to dueling with them at festivals and tourneys. They were a weapon used by elite bodyguards as well as mercenaries on the battle field.
@
AJ 1978
That is objectively false.
Thew ere used both on the battlefield and in duels. You'd be surprised how many manuels existed for all kind of weapons that were used in duels. Including tools.
@@lkvideos7181 But again, Zweihänder
was not common until the early 16th century. Of course, we don't know excatly, when it was used first time (maybe very late 15th century). Yes, greatswords were used in tournm, and duels but I dont't see (specially) Zweihänder type of great sword
outside real combats in contemporary depictions
... Can you show me that?
@@ericnesbitt1734 "lthough you are right, greatswords were also used in duels I have several translations of manuals that refer to such. Firstly there is Goliath which shows dueling with the greatsword, then there are several shorter manuals that refer to dueling with them at festivals and tourneys. They were a weapon used by elite bodyguards as well as mercenaries on the battle field." Yes, you right, but Zweihänder
was not I think... I dont't see (specially) Zweihänder type of great sword
outside real combats in contemporary depictions
... Can you show me that?
JESUS CHRIST. fighting in rain, holding ZWEIhanders with one hand, nonchalantly driving the points in the ground oh god
They were only about 8ish pounds, am I too swoll to understand? Jokes aside they just weren't that heavy, if you can swing a baby you can swing this sword.
@@bread7932 Even less, more like 4 to 6 lbs.
Then again, the swords in this scene are blunted swords, their tips are rounded and doesn't have a point.
@Joshua M Nevin Eh, I bet they did it. Phones are expensive and people do stupid crap with them, soldiers are trained to take care of their weapon and depend on it, but you still see pics of them doing stupid crap with them, people take things for granted. Would everyone have done it? No, but it probably happened often enough.
@Mister Guy Swords are almost never meant to be tip heavy, not even a Falchion. 8 lb is way on the heavier end for even a sword of this type. One handing could and would have been used for sniping or long ranged hits. Sword held in two hands throw straight forward and punched straight out with the dominant hand for a quick surprising thrust to something like the face. Could also be used for a long ranged cut again starting in one hand and then throw and lashed across with just the one hand and then returned to two hands. It also makes sense to hold the sword in one hand when the other is used to grip or manipulate the other person or their weapon.
I think you mean that his opponent's pig-faced bascinet is a few generation out of date, not too early, since by 1477, the armet and the sallet had replaced the bascinet and the pig-faced bascinet. You're right about the sword of course. So it is odd--a sword not yet used, and a helmet no longer used. Still great scene.
Director: ok now sit there and look completely disinterested, I want you to make mannequins look lively..."
Actors: "you got it boss..."
Yes normally a complete armour includes a bevor with a sallet style helmet. However, before complaining about it missing it is worth considering the purpose of a piece of armour and the reason it might be worn or left off.
A bevor is there to protect the neck from things like stabbing weapons, projectiles and splinters. Was there a large amount of archers part of the duel or a preliminary joust on horse back using lances that might splinter? No, nor was the duellists armed with daggers so from the get go the main threats a bevor is meant to protect against is missing. Sure, leaving it off left the throat exposed to a lucky slash or more likely a half swording stab but lets be honest, a bevor won't protect against the full swing of a zweihänder. Even if it miraculously would have prevent the sword from cutting into the flesh the blow would in all likelihood still have broken the neck.
Is there then any benefits of leaving the bevor off then?
Plenty, in fact. A bevor affects the breathing, distorts sounds and restricts movement of the head. So if a fighter might feel that negative impact of wearing a piece of armour outweighs the reduction in protection of having the piece missing it would be natural for him to leave it off. After all, it was common for jousters to remove both leg and back armour, especially during the later parts of the middle ages, and it was equally common for men at arms to go into battle wearing nothing more than a open faced helmet because the increased situational awareness granted by not having your head in a bucket outweighed the risk of getting hit in the face. Point in fact, everyone seems to complain about the bevor but no one seems to mention that neither fighters is wearing sabbatons. But then it the rain and mud wearing sabbatons would be a liability despite the protection they would grant so it is only natural for the fighters to leave them off.
Enough about the sword. 3:19 Who is she? There's nothing on IMDB anywhere.
the helmet was not secured at all, correct me if I am wrong.
Darkness, darkness everywhere! xddd No darknes, no dirt, no color, no inornate, no torn and plentiful dress
, no bracelets (bracelets of course basic for the Bronz Age, Ancient and Medieval times)=NO MEDIEVAL MOVIE. It's impossible to make a movie without them!
Why? Because everything was primitive back then!
Is anyone else feeling their eyes tear up during the pov shots? My brain keeps getting fooled into thinking that water is about to flow into my eyes.
Watching fight: Finally something with real armor and sword stuff.
Hears them speaking German: Damn it how has Hollywood failed me again!
Reads comments: The average Zweihander was only 8ish pounds, most people could one hand it, especially if your a knight and you literally need to be able to fight when the (in this case) emperor declares war on the Ottomans.
Even if you can HOLD it, that doesn't mean it can be used properly with one hand.
Longswords are even lighter than this (usuall 3-4 pounds), and they are simply too unwieldy to be used with one hand effectively.
To add to my other comments:
Zweihanders were infantry weapons used in formation. They were never designed to be used on horseback.
@Mister Guy although its true trying to wield the greatsword one handed sucks, they did do it for a move or two, several historical manuels show use of the cast, where the greatsword is thrust and then held extended by the pommel in a thrust with the left hand... There is also starting a swing two handed then releasing one hand to get better reach and letting the sword turn in an arc before putting the on hand back on to end in a two handed strike.
The average large sword used for real combat was nowhere near 8 pounds. more like four or five at the larger end and two to four for a longsword (1.2-1.6 kg is a solid weight for a Longsword.)
An 8 lber is decoration.
@Mister Guy They weren't 8 lbs. A baseball bat is also broad creating a lot of drag and weighted towards the other end. Swords tend to be weighted towards the guard, it's this balance that determines how far away it feels like the object is away from you. It's very easy to throw vicious punches with an 8 lb weight in your hand because it's weighted towards your hand. Don't get me wrong, you still wouldn't fight with a 4-5 lb sword (a more appropriate weight for a large two hander.) in one hand but it'd be a lot easier than trying to do that with a hammer.
Id love to see Shadiversity talk about this clip. Im of course no expert so Ill just say I kinda enjoyed it. And as far as inaccuracies go, Id say that while they were going for a more realistic depiction of medieval fighting and have probably done some research into it, bottom line is, its ment for entertainement rather than education. So no need to get overly emotional about not getting it on point. Peace :)
You want like the least qualified person to talk about it lol
Shadiversity knows next to nothing about actual sword fighting. Hes constantly mocked in reenactment and HEMA circles.
@@ConkerBirdy not sure why "real sword fighting" and HEMA are mentioned in the same sentence.
Shad is just a likable chubby sword enthusiast. So he's qualified as much as next guy. He knows much about castles thou. Rather watch Matt Easton.
Yeah, Shad is not a sword-fighting expert, but at least he put a lot of effort into studying about it and he has a sword instructor. I never see Shad as an expert, just somebody who is in a better position to study about these things and share what he learned to people.
I thought kenshin himura was going to emerge from the other tent.
Batosai 🤣🤣🤣
he would've got bopped
Why would they use a huge weapon if they are only going to be half-swording .-.
At least they are equally matched in the ability in their ability to stab each other in the neck. The sallet is missing a bevor, but the bascinet is also missing the aventail. I mean maybe they were going for some sort of great bascinet or weird transitional armet type of thing, but yeah... Mr. Hounskull has issues beyond just being a time traveller.
Always nice too see a good set of armour, with an exposed throat xD
The costumes are fantastic (I find it hard to believe the Holy Roman Emperor couldn't afford a bevor but eh... maybe he really REALLY values his breathing), the choreography's fairly good but it's a very strange choice of weapons for a fully armoured duel.
the guy who wins needs to be wearing a bevor around his neck and jaw, the only thing protecting them is a maille collar, and the helmet he is wearing is called a sallet and it is specifically designed to work in conjunction with with a bevor
Someone should review this fight. It actually looks like a 'height of plate armour technology' fight might look. Plate armour indeed reached its peak in around 1500 in Germany, when German smiths became so skilled that they made plate armour that was basically impenetrable. This sped the introduction of gunpowder weaponry, but even *then* plate armour could deflect bullets from a medium distance well into the 16th Century. During that period it was often worn by men-at-arms in the wars with the Turks.
Is there a version of this in English or with English subtitles?
Gritty, messy, noone doing backflippin roundhouse sword+kicks, ARMOR DOING WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO DO, hey, seal of approval from me.
They keep blocking and attacking with one hand...
The attacking is mostly fine actually. The blocking does wierd me out though
I suffocate just by looking through the sallet, I can only imagine how could anyone swing the sword for more than 5 min.
C'mon guys, I know it's still not 100% realistic, but it's getting better. I mean they're halfswording the montante for good chunks of the fight, and some of the stances like in 1:43 actually match manuscripts (I believe that stance is from Marozzo?). So please don't be extremely picky, we're getting there, just be patient
Finally some good historical accurate armor in a movie.
@Phillip Mullis 'laughably bad' it's 10x better than what they use in most medieval movies.
@Phillip Mullis laughable are poor lil men like you who cant appreciate something. its not perfect, but what is? but please, put together a team and a budget an make a better movie/series. just because your life is miserable you dont have to make everyone else as miserable as yourself.
@@stefanragler9584 The criticism is how the budget is used for costume, prop and set design not their ability to acquire a budget. Stupid response, you're every bit as miserable and childish as you say he is.
@@7dayspking the criticism? laughably bad is criticism? it may not have been perfect but is was relatively good compared to the usual. Think before you write. When you decide to make a film you put up a budget and may have to cut at some parts. Thats often this part when they think its not necessary for a wider audience. But you probably live in your parents basement and have no need for thinking about money so better go to your mummy so that she can give you some money for you dinner ;)
@@stefanragler9584 'finally historically accurate armour' and the response 'it isn't, it's laughably bad'. Makes perfect sense in context, you should have asked him to elaborate and then weighted the justification.
'it's good compared to the usual'. What is representative of the usual and in what way was it?
If you're going to repeat that stupid 'let's see how you do argument' I'll ask that you match their budget for this film and then we'll see how he might use it. The criticism again is on the choices made within the budget, not on their ability to accumulate the budget.
The Joan of arc film I'm referring to for the second time had lower production values probably especially for it's costumes but much more authentic costuming. Also filmed 70 years ago when authentic costumes and props must have been much harder to come by and accurate information much more difficult to get. If this series was billed as authentic there is really no excuse although I'm not saying they did market it that way.
This scene at least all the armor existed at some point in time. I could even be argued that it could have existed then, just not have been documented. If you have ever watched HEMA fighters go at it they swing their swords around very energetically, they don't use swords so big they have no agility with them. I've seen videos of modern day practitioners in similar armor using proper longwords and they are so good they will hit the eye slits at full speed if given the slightest chance (let alone that exposed neck, he would be dead in .3 seconds missing that piece of armor). These Zweihanders were used a little later in time in larger battles to break up armored formations, in a dual they would probably be using a slightly smaller 2 handed sword (which I think are called longsword in modern term), and halfswording into the joints and eyes every chance they got.
Somebody levelled strength
It's better than in many other movies
The bascinet is too late not too early, they had fallen out of use almost a century beforehand. An armet or sallet would be appropriate, or even a barbute for that matter.
2 Casual Level Dex . Bet they dont even infuse chaos
jesus christ exposed chin?
So dumb hahaha
Maybe in a one to one duel is dumb, but it is historically accurate. Soldiers did sometimes wear their sallets with just the top, and technically in real life someone could have done it in a duel.
@@intrepidconqueror8199 Haven't watched this but probably that dude isn't just a nobody tho.
If you can keep it safe, it makes breathing, vision out the bottom a hell of a lot better. Just not for jousting *cough* gameofthronea *cough*
It is shown in some old pictures so it was done, but probably wouldn't be in a one on one for safety reasons.
That arena also seems to have a very small surrounding space for audiences. The buildings are all very close and hardily enough space for spectators. Makes me wonder if this is a design choice to convey an intimate, duel-type setting vs the usual grand, large tournament arenas that allows for masses of people to watch...
Also, like what other people have mentioned, I question why this must be done in the rain. Maybe to enhance the unique visual feel of when we get to observe the perspective from within the sallet and have droplets of rain on the edge of the eye slit?
A major theme of the miniseries that the emperor is totally out of money and they living in rather unglorified circumstances in Wiener Neustadt castle, which isn't big.
Edit to previous post: I wanted to say it's weird that they're in armor and aren't going for more thrusts, but come to think of it it might have been illegal to do so. That said, just doing standard parry-riposte with zweihanders is dumb, someone should have just parried and then tackled the other guy. The main selling point for the zweihander is that no one wants to take a hit from it, but if you're already going to the next thing to do is make sure it can't come around again.
Everyone complaining about the fact, that he doesn't wear a bevor to his sallet, is totally right.
But why does nobody go on at the most obvious problem? This actor doesn't look like Maximilian at all!!!
Who the heck was responsible for the casting???
Reality he had half-length hair, which was very popular between the mid 15th and very early 16th century, primary in the upper social classes (like nobles and wealthy urban people). Zweihänder was not a common type of great sword until the early 16th century, and it was not a typical duel sword. Oh, and the hounskull camail bascinet helmet (which was shown in the video, of course not accurately) was out of favor after the early 15th century... xd
I get this feeling that they stuck these small historical inaccuracies in there just to make these guys look rich and powerful or something. Which is a stupid way of doing it. I definitely think they made up for that with the remarkable shooting. The whole series is shot very, very well and I really enjoyed it. Didn't expect it to be this good and I do recommend watching it.
The inaccuracies make them look poor, savage and primitive not rich and powerful.
@@7dayspking yeah, that's the problem. It went backwards. I guess nothing's perfect.
@@PowermadNavigator A lot of the inaccuracies are shoddy, poor constructed props and costume. Stuff that neither looks good nor actually functions well or just looks plain cheap and ugly. That's the way they typically portray this period, guys with dirt all over them wearing an assortment of raw animal flesh hitting each other with steel clubs that are shaped kind of like swords.
*"And of course, don't fuckin' forget - the Chaos Zweihander and Grass Crest Shield. Well, what is it? Have you cooled yet? It's time to fuckin' pawn'up some noobz."*
Robot Jox: 1480
Chassis type: Class 1, nonpowered. Non nuclear/biological/chemical rated. Now used for cadet endurance training prior to piloting powered exoskeletons.
Weapons type: Class 1, impact industrial tool. Currently only designated for use by labor inmates at mining installations on Penal Sector 6...
This type of Zweihänder didn't even existed back then....
We don' know exactly when that sword entered using, but in the end of the 15th century it may have existed. However, what you write is true, that was not a common sword until the early 16th century. Furthermore the Zweihänder was not a typical duel sword.
Idk how maximillianmus got me here but ain’t complaining
I like how the arm at 2:09 surprisingly didn't just fall off
Whaaaat? Die Serie is deutsch UND ICH WEISS NICHTS DAVON? WIE?!
That armour and a Zweihander you're gonna tire out fast.
To wear this helmet without it's proper neckprotection isn't necessary a mistake by the filmmakers. In history there were some knights who removed it, because they did not get enough fresh air in their opinion and eventually got killed for their decision
It's accurate. The Archduke just didn't any neck and facial protection to deal with this scrub. Check the Record!
You don’t need neck protection when you’ve got the Hapsburg chin.
Inaccuracies in this are hurting my black soul. Hämeenlinna where this is filmed has a fine collection of accurate armors they could have referenced and a lot of reading of the time period.
I'm only happy when it rains. I'm only happy when it's complicated.
Der zweihänder is truly a heavy weapon,it hits like a sawblade and is as manuverable as a bus
Not as heavy as you would think. They are actually quite maneuverable also.
Aside from the fight let me ask... Was hat er gesprochen ? What was he seying about Mathias Corvinus?
Those pauldrons tucked underneath the cuirass are a nuissance
Maximilian in fact did wear this kind of helmet. There are several sets of armor in Vienna and Innsbruck.
Yes, that's correct, it is called "sallet". Popular helmet between the mid 15th century and very early 16th century. But his full plate armour was not perfect in this video, and he has not bevor... Oh, and the Zweihänder type of great sword was not common until the early 16th century and was not a typical duel sword. Other problem: the opponent knight is wear a hounskull camail bascinet, which type of helmet was out of favor after the early 15th century.
The helmet really isn't the issue, sallets like that were really popular in the 15th century (though as many have pointed out, he would definitely have worn a bevor. Like, his throat is basically unprotected in this).
The issue is that the swords are heavily anachronistic, roughly half a century off the mark. Kind of like giving soldiers in a WW1 movie an M16 rifle.
can anybody tell me why the neck is expose ?? don't you have chain mail under the helmet
Why do people think zweihander swords are special. It literally means 2 handed sword.
This looks amazing and was a wellwritten scene, my only issue is with them fighting with swords at all considering they're both in armour.
Stuff like this was done it was for entertainment purposes, think wrestling today. No one is supposed to get badly injured but it's still nice to see people beat each other.
Greatswords are great at dealing concussive blows to those wearing armor.
Joshua M Nevin swords of that size have literally no use for razor edges, they are massive weapons meant to batter opponents not slice and dice
@@alexsmith6322 Not necessarily, the cutting power of greatswords are crazy. Using them in armored combat made greatswords amazing clubs, but they could certainly cut, as well.
It's safe to assume that you would wield a sword if you don't intend to kill your opponent. There are ton of depictions of sword duels in full armour. Most of the time for training or tournaments. Using a blunt weapon like a mace would be better probably on the battlefield but this seems like the better version if you don't intend to smash your enemy to a pulp.
Looks like the lad isn't particularily worried about his throat there. Like, sallets are good helmets but well... They only cover the upper half of your face, the back of the head and your neck. A simple hit to the throat would have been potentially lethal where his opponent was pretty much safe.
''It's just a flesh wound''!
If this was intended to be a sort of courtly ritual in the form of a duel where neither combatant was actually risking his life, then the weapons at least make sense. But it was a real duel, right?
Can anyone give the setting for this or is everyone just going to agonize about always present anachronisms?
Zweihanders are awesome.
So who was it that Maximilian was actually jousting as his Father and the King of Hungary looked on?
Meanwhile the polehammers are lamenting in the corner, saddened by the fact that they aren't recognized for their utility.
You literally can't see shit out of those visors. I can imagine it being very frustrating not having a paraphernalia vision (I think I spelled that wrong)
War =/= tournament. Aside from the great sword, i find the rest of the criticism ought to be lowered. The reason is because this is a tournament, not war. It was not uncommon to use older style armour for tournament, not to mention gear was often specifically tailored for tournament usage. An example is how the bucket helmet or bascinet remained in games way past it war time usage, google knight errant. Additionally, the inventories of the tower of London described arms and armour elements for tourney use ever since the 13th century.
We have art of tournament, do you know of any art or harneses from 1470 that look like what either of these two are wearing? I don't. These harnesses look like they're tailored for fighting let alone tournaments? This is 1470s.
Don't tell me, hounskull "camail" (no camail in the video too) bascinet was used in tournaments in the 1470's... Beacuse it's not! Great bascinet with rounded visor? Yes! GB was used as tournament helmet until the 16th century:
1450's tournament great bascinet:
i.pinimg.com/originals/9a/5a/69/9a5a69af1e77b41dfe751ce5dec0b8c5.jpg
1510's tournament great bascinet:
collectionapi.metmuseum.org/api/collection/v1/iiif/21997/61529/main-image
Holy moly pull the camera back so I can see what the hell is going on.