The orcs are a subjugated class because Sauron subjugates them. And, yeah. immortality does corrupt... aaand it's Sauron's fault. He gave the humans immortal and turned them into wraiths. Whisps of humanity hurt by base fears and desires being exploited. The elves are still there because Sauron's presence prevents the rightful age of man from comming. The elves only leave at the end because Sauron removes the last thing tying them to the world. Even if the free people's are unreasonable narrators, Sauron is still the source of all super-human evil in the 3rd age. As to what the ring actually does: it lies. It does just enough to convince it's bearers to embrace their darkest ambitions. Because hobbits just want comfort, food and friends, they're able to carry the ring a lot more effectively, but give it to somebody who, say, wants to protect the nature of the world, and they'll become a eco-terrorist justifying horrible actions in the interest of their desires until they twist and corrupt into an immortal shell of whatever noble ambition they once had.
+William Arnold But, but, but. Saron is inclusive in who he enslaves... which vaguely aligns with our BS modem sensibilities of being overly multiculturalist, which makes him secretly the good guy.and, Orcs have a sad origin story so killing them when they try and eat you is a hate crime - Cracked - Cracked
+William Arnold Does he subjugate the orcs? I interpreted it that he led them, but that had more to do with the Orcs following him because he was powerful. And since Melkor was the one who twisted the orcs into their current form and is now gone, it kind of looks like Sauron is leading a race that descends from slaves. I am a little unclear on how Sauron is preventing the age of man from coming, I thought it was the elves that were hanging on, and it was the destruction of the One Ring that caused the Elf rings to stop working and thus allowing magic to fade. Were the elves unable to leave so long as the magic was around? Or am I just unclear on the meta-physics of this universe?
+Joshua Pelfrey well the reason their rings still had power was because of the one ring, and yes they couldn't leave as long as there was magic in middle earth. and sauron did enslave, whip and forced the orcs to fight for him, just like the trolls. the goblins are a bit of a different story. the orcs are (like stated in the vid) tortured elves, tortured by melkor to be used as weapons. sauron uses those weapons. orcs are used as tools.
the Orcs only march into battle together as they are backed up by the dark magic of Sauron, he is effectively controlling them, when he dies the Orcs panic and flee, and resort to infighting
+Field Marshal Fry Also, there was plenty of infighting BEFORE Sauron was defeated. The Uruk Hai are despised by non-Uruk Hai orcs and the feeling's mutual. Also, trolls are basically slaves, they are literally whipped into doing manual labor. But yes, other than that, they get along just fine.
+Field Marshal Fry In Shadow of Mordor a big gameplay element is the fact that the ring has the ability to control the minds of orcs....also there is mass enslavement of humans by orcs....and then they sometimes also eat said human slaves....
There's an inherent problem with the races of Mordor wanting a bigger slice of Middle Earth - they greatly dislike direct sunlight. That's why they hang out near Mount Doom as the volcanic ash acts as a filter. They're not harmed by it, but it is morale sapping just as the dark skies over Mordor make men fearful and despairing. It's another reason there is panic when Sauron goes down. They'd really much rather not be fighting a battle in broad daylight but Sauron's influence was egging them on. Co-existing isn't really an option as the Orcs would wish to build great environmentally destructive industry to lower light levels as happens in Isengard (despite Sauruman mostly breeding the fear of light out of them).
I'm impressed with the passion of the commenters refuting the points in this video. I'm a massive Tolkien nerd myself and clearly see the absurdity in this video, but that's all it is, comedy.
+Ebon Hawk Was he, though? "History is written by the victor" and all that, so naturally "The Great Enemy" is vilified. How do we know that the elves even interpreted the messages of the Valar and Eru? Even if he WAS genuinely _evil_, wouldn't that be part of Erus' big plan as well? He was created along with the other Valar to play in the orchestra of creation, and I believe he had a very important purpose in that. The "Song of Creation" was meant to be a perfect set of harmonies (in the concept of "celestial music" being a creative force), but harmony cannot exist without the concept of disharmony/discord. Being the personification of an actual concept, he had no other way of being other than according to the nature of his concept. Thoughts?
+KamiKyojin Wow. It's kind of like the "God vs Satan" situation. God created Heaven as this wonderful place full of angels of light. Yet one of the angels he created happened to be Lucifer (who, ironically, was also thought of as a creature that was great in wisdom and perfect in beauty). And what does Lucifer do? He rebels and is cast out of heaven with his followers to earth. I mean, if God knows everything, then he _must_ have known that Lucifer would have done that. So basically, God created his own main rival and enemy because... reasons? Furthermore, he casts him down to the very place he would create human beings, where he knew his enemy would tempt his creations, then at the end of their mortal lives he sends those who don't refuse the temptations to where his rival lives where they are tortured for eternity... I mean, seriously, what the hell!?
+Tonberry Queen The similarities are well beyond coincidental (althought they might've been subconscious). Raises the question of free will versus fate as well - how much can one struggle against inherent nature? Sauron is a good example, once again. For quite some time after the defeat of Morgoth/Melkor Sauron was kept as an "honorary hostage" on the island of Numenor. During this imprisonment it's said he acted genuinely remorsefull, seeing the error of his wicked ways, only to corrupt his captors into decadent degenerates gorging on human sacrifice and rape-orgies... What if he was actually repentant though, helplessly watching the nobility of mankind slowly sink into the level of inbred decadence we usually associate with the "dark times" of the Roman Empire? What if he was the fall-guy, getting all the shit for something he might've even tried to hinder? There's also the possibility of Sauron being truly willing to change, but eventually losing out to his nature as a sworn servant to discord - that despite his very best effort, his touch ultimately corrupts what it touches (in this case, the Kings of Numenor who went Caligula-crazy and tried to invade Valinor)... Either way, I find that story more interesting in many ways =D
+Corrupted Archangel the lord of the rings has nothing to do with racism except its defense of Jewish culture. Scholars call it ' A corrective rewrite' of German composer Richard Wagner’s 'Ring cycle' Tolkien wrote the dwarves as Jews showing their strength and heroism. As for orcs they are basically angels and demons, read the silmarilion.
+Nathan Zimmerman No, his name is Soren Bowie, they just right scripts for the episodes to give them sort of different personalities. He may be a LOTR geek in real life, maybe he was just told to act the LOTR geek part.
I mean. The Silmarillion is basically a bible in Middle Earth. Taking it literally is like taking the Bible literally. If you think of it as an example of in-universe history recorded by the (very biased) elves to codify their prejudices and superiority complex, it doesn't disrupt this theory at all, does it?
Things wrong with this video: 1. Sauron is Immortal too, By that logic that makes him bad. 2. Southern Mordor isn't that bad, in fact the land around the Sea of Núrnen is arable. 3. Orcs are incapable of good and have limited free will. 4. Orcs don't get along well at all. "The meat's back on the menu, boys!" 5. "War crimes" yeah, right. Because it's not like the Orcs pillaged and burned everything in their path, right? 6. Again, if Orcs are corrupted Elves, and Elves are supposedly evil, that makes Orcs still evil. 7."White supremacy" Remember the scene where the Haradrim completely destroy the Rohirrim with Mumakil? Both the Easterlings and Haradrim were pretty badass and formidable in their own right. They were fighting for Sauron because they wanted a reward along with having a bone to pick with Gondor. Not too black and white here. 8. Minas Tirith, not Gundor. 9. Elves were responsible for plenty of progress in Middle Earth. In the First Age, they have flying airships that could travel into the void. But overall magic and fantasy in Middle Earth had been fading away for Millennia, so the Elves aren't to blame anyway. 10. Elrond didn't want Arwen to marry Aragorn because Aragorn would've died eventually (Sometime after the elves left Middle Earth) and Arwen would grieve for the rest of her immortal life. Besides, Aragorn has the blood of Numenor (Extremely long life), AND Elrond himself is of Mixed Human/Elf Ancestry. 11.The Ring of Power is Sauron's life force. He is bound to its fate and its fate is bound to him. They can't be different because they're both the same entity. 12... Actually, I could go on forever, but I've already done this way longer than any sane person would, so I'm going to stop. Anyway, screw this excuse for left-wing propaganda. I used to like After Hours, now I'm not so sure. You can tell none of them know anything about LOTR or the Silmarillion and are just reciting from a script. Good day.
+MrOwnerandPwner Thank you. I really disliked this episode, the points they made were not grounded in anything. (Aragorn actually has elf blood way back, he and Arwen are actually EXTREMELY distantly related cousins) That said, I recommend you check out 'The Last Ringbearer', a parody of Lord of the Rings from the point of view of two Orcs, in which they are the good guys. The idea being that history is written by the victor, and the victors in this case were the elves, dwarves, hobbits and humans.
+Abnormal Oddish So I looked it up on Google, and I have to say it's a very interesting idea. I especially like how the Nazgul were in fact scientists and philosophers that guided the peaceful Mordor through industrialisation. I may give it a read sometime.
+MrOwnerandPwner "I used to like After Hours, now I'm not so sure." Why, dude? I've read the Silmarilion too and everything about LOTR, still this is fun. I'm not mad. Because it's comedy, dude. They also claimed the Empire in Star Wars is good, they claimed Star Wars is racist towards robots, or racist because everyone keeps killing the orcs in LOTR, yet, they're fucking murdering everyone. Do you not see, that they're just being funny? Just picking random topics, being nerdy, arguing like friends do from time to time. We've all done that. I still don't understand how some friends of mine believe Batman is kind of a bad guy. Do I stop hanging out with them? Would you? Just talks, man. That's it. Chill, mate, I hope you were being ironic anyway :D
+Quizzi agreed, given that they were taking evidence not just from the movies but from the silmarillion. of course cracked always needs some crazy contraversial opinion, or else theres no point. ACCEPT for here the point they make about race is totally valid, because its tolkien, he actually thought like that.
I think this was more about social progress. If a insanely powerful immortal person stay in power for aeons the society would progress a lot more slowly because the one in power stays the same. If the one in power changes every few years, different beliefs can mold the society. Different influences create the progression of society over time.
True, but in this case, you are just switching from a 6 to a half dozen, Sauron is as immortal as elves or even more immortal, (I know that sounds weird and that's why I said it, I liked it), yes Sauron might have a more "progressive", but not really. look than Elves, but they were going away to the "boats of forever leaving", and even the industrial way Goatmon said isn't quite correct, elves and dwarfs are as industrial as orcs, dwarfs are even more, BUT, they have different approaches to it, Elves create their stuff with minimal destruction to local wild life, the dwarfs a little less concerned on the matter, and orcs little to no concern. About the progress part, do you consider progress as in better weapons or mass producing weapons? (using weapons because is the main thing we see and also the main thing that drove progress in our society in the last loads of years), mass production the Orcs nail it, but in quality, as the Hobbit book puts it Gandalf: finer sword you will not find. Summing it up: Sauron is as progressive as Elves, but in a more destructive way, proven by the change of Saruman's way, from green to METAAALLL, and that's why the humans win, they die and rest for ever.
"Progress" is in the eye of the beholder. Also, orcs aren't immortal, they have a shorter lifespan than the Dunedain do. (See History of Middle Earth, Volume X: Morgoth's Ring.)
Orcs get along well and are equal? um, no. In the Two Towers orcs and urukhai get in a fight and in Return of the King extended edition orcs get in a fight with each other on the tower of Cirith Ungol and on the way to the Black Gate.
also...I know this isn't canon but... In Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War, the orcs fight and kill each other to climb the ladder of Mordor hierarchy.
While not quite as much in the movies, the books describe quite well how the orcs abused and mistreated each other. When unable to be on the battlefield, they often kill each other instead.
The only thing the Orcs hate more than the other races is other orcs. If Sauron and his lieutenants weren’t around to very literally whip the Orcs into formation, they would rapidly descend into in-fighting fueled by self-loathing.
No. That's not what it's like. Elrond watched his own immortal brother Elros wither and die, because of his choice of a mortal bride. He's resented and pined for Elros for thousands of years, and he never understood the value of his brother's decision until the end of the third movie.
Elros died because he chose to be human, the choice was given to both of them to choose men or elf and they chose differently. It probably had more to do with the fact that Elrond knew that Sauron was on a war path and that good had little chance at succeeding so he wanted his child to go where she would be safe. Also the thought of living forever and watching your child die is probably not appealing.
Would you care to elaborate or did you want to parade how you yourself have no clue? I hope you have a clue, but I will never know, by the emptyness of your comment.
ASOIAF has plenty of black characters, they were just written out of the show Game of Thrones. Also, racism and discrimination are major themes in the books.
+Jacob Taber in my oppionion there are only 2 charakters in ASOIAF without redeeming features, Ramsay Bolton and Gregor Clegane. Anyone else has at least some positive features. Greetings ps. misunderstood black as "evil" in the white/gray/black meaning. (no i'm no racist, i'm just from germany and not that familiar with the nuances of the english language.^^)
+Jacob Taber It also had many characters that seemed to be middle-eastern but were changed to black in the show, e.g. Areo Hotah, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, Salladhor Saan.
+Shariq Torres there are a number of nondiscriminatory reasons for that. The biggest of which being, not that many minorities will audition for shows. In america that's less and less of a problem (and you've notice a major rise in black characters over the last 3 decades) because more black people live in big town and show up for big auditions. The London population is only about 5% black. even if the numbers reflected population, if 5 out of 100 people were black, hiring them because they were black in spite of their abilities is just as racist as not hiring them despite their abilities. (yes i know despite means in spite of, i just didn't want to use the same 3 words again in the same sentence) if you look at the BBC there are plenty of black actors and actresses, the problem is that unlike in america the british "dream" isn't to become an actor for most people, most brits don't live for their chance to become a 1in a million star like americans do, they are happy being content. (not all of them, as you can see some of them do go on to be stars, but it's a different culture, a different mind set.) hell look at one of the most famous brits of the past 100 years. John Cleese, he choose to become an actor because a law office (he was a lawyer) could only pay him 15quid a week, where the BBC was willing to offer him more than double that. He didn't become one of the most famous entertainers of all time because he dreamed of it, he did it because it was the best paying job at the time.
+Jacob Taber It's hard to resist speaking ill of After Hours sometimes, simply because they focus so blindly on screen adaptions. Books usually don't count.
Shariq Torres that's why a black hermione happened? or a black companion to the doctor? casting directors aren't putting people into roles because they aren't good enough for the role. outside of period drama's race doesn't matter, only acting skill. and there are a lot less trained black thespians in the world than ANY other race. Wanting a job doesn't mean shit if you aren't qualified to work it. Think about a doctor, or a lawyer, if you found out your doctor got his job over another doctor because of his race not his skills, how comfortable would that make you? but even still, go to a majority black country and tell me when you see a white person on tv, I lived in japan for 8 months, in the 8 months i lived there i only ever saw 3 white people on tv, and that's from the english only channels. the japanese channels, unless someone goes on a killing spree you'd never see a white guy.
@@A_Black_Sheep94 That's so completely wrong it hurts. Morgoth is a Valar, a powerful caste of divine beings called the Ainur. Sauron is a Maiar, a lower caste of the Ainur. Gandalf is also a Maiar, just with restricted power and a human form. The only way you could possibly think he's an elf is if you heard that he took an elven form to trick Celebrimbor into making the Rings of Power, but never learned anything else about him. And for the record, no, he is not dead. With the ring destroyed, his power went with it. He's essentially an angry, impotent ghost.
Does Katie have a video where her argument isn't about racism? Hell, I get that literature and film are filled with examples of racism. But at some point a difference argument might spice up the video.
I've been wondering about that as well... not all the After Hours videos involve racism or sexism, but if they do, She's always the one to bring it up. any type of suggested oppression... she seems rather obsessed with it honestly.
"Sauron poured his malice and will to dominate all living things into the ring" I don't think you can have malice and the will to dominate all life without being evil
BUT WAIT if he poured it all into the ring then he dosen't have any so thus he could be good (or rather his surviving minions could be since he dies) when the ring was killed
Ok. The one ring only gives hobbits invisibility because they lack power of there own and are innocent. More powerful races like you know elves would become incredibly powerful and corrupt. That's why the other races arn't allowed to carry the ring.
So true invisibility is not the only power one gets from the ring! If any one else had it such as Denathor he could have obliterates Sauron's Army. But he would be just as evil.
"The Ring is evil because it literally contains a chunk of Sauron's soul and will inside it, and any action you take under its influence is inevitably to the Dark Lord's benefit. Hobbits are the exception because they have no great ambitions, but they are far from the rule of thumb." There.
@@varangiangaming7178 True, but empirically, it’s pretty obvious it takes a much longer time for Hobbits to suffer its influences than any other race. Galadriel didn’t even have to touch it to start craving it, Gandalf outright refused to keep it for any amount of time out of fear of what it would make him do (him, who was a Maia on par with Mairon himself!), and it took many decades to truly wear Bilbo down. Even Frodo didn’t truly succumb to its pull until he was at Mount Doom’s base, where its power was at its strongest (although he came close whenever the Nazgul came close, admittedly).
The rest of your sentence past the part that was in this episode is pointless and would get cut out before it made it to the episode. You don't over explain an aspect of the topic that doesn't move the argument closer to your point. Your point is weakened if you over explain because it just sounds like rambling bullshit because in the context of the conversation, it is.
Yeah this is addressed in the lore it only grants invisibility to Hobbits due to their unassuming and down to earth souls. For others it grants power and coruptuokn Also golum was a hobbit he's the end result
Oh fuck. Not this again. Sorry but your definition of "good guy" is fucked if it includes "into genocide". I'm all for humourisly misinterpreting movies with straw arguments, but I'm out on this one.
+halim lorette But, but, but. Saron is inclusive in who he enslaves... which vaguely aligns with our BS modem sensibilities of being overly multiculturalist, which makes him secretly the good guy. and, Orcs have a sad origin story so killing them when they try and eat you is a hate crime - Cracked
+darkblood626 Orcs were made of human, elf, dwarf and even wizards (i can't remember the word) If i remember right the only race that could not become orcs was the hobbits because they were innocent, even Gollum after hundreds of years of corruption and torture was still outside of Sauron's control.
+NoESanity Orcs made from the wizards? I thought there were only five sent to Middle Earth and three can be accounted for. The other two having left for the east.
This logic is so stupid anyone notice how they conviently skip over the fact that Sauron joins Melkor and all the events of the Silmarillion, basically saying that "that doesn't count because nobody read that and it's not a movie." This is ridiculous.
And now think about why was Melkor considered evil: he was trying to have more freedom in creating the world, he could be seen as someone who was only trying to break free.
***** He admitted that he despised good FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE. He didn't consider killing elves, humans and dwarves to be bad because he killed those who were, from his perspective, bad(just like humans kill orcs: just because they're bad). There is never truly evil side(or there is, but our ,,civilised and progressive'' thinking makes us not to think that).
***** He only admitted that he is what others despise, but that doesn't neccessarily mean that he is what he considers evil. He might have used term ,,evil'' only because it would be easier to be understood that way.
***** Well, darkness might be superior power, we just don't know(both Melkor and Sauron were outnumbered, if it would be even, darkness would probably win). And killing or turning enemy to you cause is what would even the good guys prefer. He hated elves because they were created by those who were against him, he might have considered them as badly created, that would explain why he turned elves into orcs/goblins(not sure what term does english version use, I've read only translated czech version), it could be seen as... liberating them. And if he wished for power and domitaion: can you tell me again what Iluvatar wished? I'll answer: he wished for either complete control or for everything going exactly as he wanted.
***** I know that Melkor and Sauron were not outnumbered when it comes to their army, but I was talking about the gods, Melkor and Sauron against 20 or so gods? That's outnumbering af. And again: how do we know that orcs have small will, because it's told to us? Even if they have small will, they are pretty smart(their technology is much superior against human or elvish technology), that would mean that they are in some sense better then humans or elves. And peace and order means no opposition, no resistance, but it doesn't have to mean good(again, depends on your perspective what you consider as good). And again: Melkor wanted: ,,darkness'' death of creations of his enemies and destruction of, from his perspective bad, old world.
Also... Sauron literally made Mordor into the shit hole it is. If you folks had read the books numerous times like I have, you'd realize this. Instead of focusing on making Mordor beautiful and lovely, Sauron mostly demolishes it in search for resources.
And the Orcs aren't an "oppressed people," they were created by Melkor when he enslaved some elves and corrupted them; he used them to spread death and destruction.
AeneasGemini Yes, but Sauron goes the extra mile. He also destroys countryside surrounding Mordor sincerely out of spite. In the book, it's hinted that this horrific destruction, accumulating into vast mountains of ash and burnt Earth (which Frodo, Sam and Gollum lay under at one point) were to be a monument to Sauron, never able to be restored.
Okay, I'm the first to agree that the elves are bunch of immortal entitled racist douches. But if that were Saurons beef with them, then hello pot meet kettle. The fact that Sauron (who is another immortal being BTW) is older than any of the elves, and is driven by continuing the chaotic legacy of his master Morgoth (who is essentially Satan). If we're talking about immortal beings holding the world back and halting progress because of their own vendettas, Sauron takes the cake, he and Morgoth are the reason the orcs exist in their misery in the first place. The elves may not be perfect but they were decent enough to realize they weren't helping things by remaining and moving on at the end of the story. Imagine Sauron ever doing that?
Yes I agree but still in almost every fantasy setting elvs have 3 ways to be portrayed, everything good about humanity, racists who think all is inferior cause they are immortal, and Santa's workforce token went with number 2
@@Richard_Nickerson however it says how when he breaks the song he attracts many maiar (or however you spell it, I can't remember) including the balrogs. It wouldn't be that far to assume that sauron is included in this. Also, it does when you choose your boss. Sauron decides at some point to join Melkor, we had definitely already done some horrible things no matter when he joined him.
+Drace90 I guess so, both sound rather boring to me. I always liked the idea of the bad guys being evil, tricking good people into following them, and later the good people finding out. Sort of like Darth Vader, except in my stories the former bad guys turned good don't die 5 minutes later. I like to have reformed villains, fighting with the good guys and being total bad asses. Then you get characters who are fighting on the side of good, but it doesn't feel out of place when they are brutally murdering and torturing their enemies.
+Drace90 Well, sure, that's how culture works. A few decades ago, orcs were evil and always were evil. Look, the Monster Manuel says "Chaotic Evil"! But that's boring. So now orcs tend to be savage nobles, usually from a shamanistic tradition. A few decades from now, there'll be another shift. Fiction would be dull if we relied on the same unchanged tropes every time. That's Kang's Regiment is my favorite Dragonlance series. Draconians that are not pure and utter evil are more interesting than the alternative.
Can't believe they brought up the Silmarillion and didn't mention how the Dwarves were created and then forced to go back to sleep under a mountain until several eons passed. Talk about your racial oppression.
Dunno why Eru did such a thing? Maybe because if dwarfs would woke up before elves and men, at the time of elves and men arrival all Arda would have been turned into one large mining site? Or because Morgoth would have made greedy and arrogant dwarves his minions? Considering how easily dwarves can be corrupted, at the arrival of other races there would be a large army of corrupted and mutated dwarves waiting for them and destroying everything.
Yeah and Eru said that they could stay but they weren't destined to be the first because that's not how the song was sung, it wasn't something that Eru decided, rather it was the divine chorus of the Valar inspired by Eru, but clearly other opinions factored in other than just Eru's will otherwise Melkor couldn''t have made his changes. Granted Eru predicted something going awry, and was well prepared for it , but the point of a chorus is to have multiple voices
I'd just like to second what everyone else is saying and point out that Soren won like, the first five seconds of argument. The only reason this video lasted any longer than that is because the others pretty much literally said "The actual lore and canon of what we're discussing here, which, if taken into account like it should be would win you this argument right now, doesn't count because I arbitrarily decided that. From what we see in the two and a half hour condensed version of three books which don't include the much longer book the author wrote specifically to explain all this, the orcs must be oppressed and Sauron must be a George Washington-esque revolutionary, even though we see in the actual movie that they're actually the oppressors." Excellent premise, that.
And then they talked about how Elrond is against mixed race relationships. You are aware he's Elrond *Halfelven*, right? As in he *is* mixed race. His criticism of Arwen's relationship with Aragorn(who, I might add, is also long-lived--he was eighty-odd in the movies) is based out of a desire to keep her from the pain he knew being immortal with a mortal parent.
+The Learned Soldier But, but, but. Saron is inclusive in who he enslaves... which vaguely aligns with our BS modem sensibilities of being overly multiculturalist, which makes him secretly the good guy. and, Orcs have a sad origin story so killing them when they try and eat you is a hate crime - Cracked
+Shariq Torres Ignoring your bait regarding the EU, I disagree. No, they wouldn't. The difference is that Star Wars is a franchise based on movies, so talking about just the movies is fine, because they were deliberately made to be full stories in and of themselves. Lord of the Rings(and basically everything else in the world) is, first and foremost, a book series, and therefore the books are the primary sources, whereas movies would be considered secondary sources. Talking about nothing but Peter Jackson's film adaptations would be like talking about nothing but the EU--yes, you get the gist of what the world is and the story being told, but while ignoring the primary sources is technically acceptable, when you're talking to people who've read/seen/etc. the primary sources, you have to defer to their knowledge, since they know a whole helluva lot more than you. It's why I don't argue about the canon of superheroes with people who own/have read the comic books--yes, I've seen a lot of Marvel's remakes and similar, but I know that I'm no authority on the subject because of that. I know that there will always be more info in the original source material. Do I really want to read the comics? No, not really. Do I try to claim the movies are a higher canon than them? No, because that would be incredibly stupid.
That's what happens when comedians have to make jokes. I'm pretty sure the Star Wars prequels would've made perfect sense to someone who read the Expanded Universe, but to hell with that shit, comedians can't make cheap laughs without ignoring the source materials.
Basically the background plot of Hataraku Maou-sama (The Devil is a Part-Timer). Except Sauron is definitely evil. The numerous races in Middle-Earth that do his bidding do so because of (1) magical compulsion (lesser-minded beings like Orcs/Goblins/Trolls), (2) fear (Haradrim), and (3) self-interest (Corsairs). Not because Sauron actually has it in their best interest. He wants dominion and power, he cares not for what standard of living those under his dominion get.
+Valter Silmarillion explains a lot of things surrounding the epic saga of Tolkien's Middle Earth (and the worlds around it). While they reference certain things in it, they have done this After Hours with thoughts around the movies mainly without being able to know what's in the books. But what fun is there in saying "Orc is bad, Elf is good" and leave it at that?
+The 5 dollar film maker It is like discussing one war and ignoring the rest of history and trying to make sense of the entire world based on that alone.
+Valter He is basically the apprentice and right hand man to the physical incarnation and origin of all evil in the world. Not to mention when they talk about the orcs wanting other parts of middle earth because Mordor is a barren wasteland, it wasn't a barren wasteland before Morgoths forces took it thats what they do to places.
Amusing as this is, it kind of glosses over the orcs many atrocities we see DURING the movie. Just because "I want a piece of the pie" doesn't excuse sacking, raping, and pillaging innocent villagers, murdering and eating their helpless children. They never once try to negotiate or peacefully seek an end to their conflict. The first appearance of Sauron's forces, they straight up murder a guy for no reason (the hobbit on the border to Bree), the first appearance of the orcs is when they stalk, track, and attack the Fellowship with no warning, and end with kidnapping (with no parley, truce, or explanation) Pippin and Merry. This is straight up the work of villains. Never, at any point, do we see them act in any good or reasonable manner. Also, Sauron himself made the ring. So, if the ring is evil, Sauron made it that way. Also, Mordor is a pit of ugliness because the ORCS made it that way. Mordor USED to be beautiful, full of life and peace, but the orcs strip-mined it, destroyed most life, and turned it into a sludge pit of industry and slavery. Also, elves don't own slave, nor do humans. But, surprise! Orcs do! So, who are the bad guys again? Also, Elrond didn't want his daughter to marry Aragorn because he knew Aragorn was mortal and would die, while Arwen would be left alone on Middle Earth, immortal (since she didn't travel to Elf Heaven with the others), in solitude and in mourning the rest of eternity, and he didn't want that fate for his daughter. He actually respected and loved Aragorn (who actually DOES have half-elf blood in him, as a Dunedain). This is kind of like the "Empire in Star Wars was really good, and are just protecting themselves from a band of terrorists" BS we hear from snarky bloggers and serious right-wing conspiracy theorists. It's a cute little gag until you actually think it through with an ounce of logic. The Empire massacred a PLANET of INNOCENT people because they thought one or two of them were rebels. That's like saying the USA is fully justified in nuking and ending all life in the entirety of Arabia, Persia, and Mesopotamia because some terrorists live there, and then making pretend that we wouldn't be the most evil country in this part of the galaxy for doing that. In other words, it works as a momentary, funny, ha-ha, "as if" sort of gag, but doesn't actually work as a serious argument.
You forget this is a bad faith video that has it's conclusion decided and the evidence was picked to support it. Also considering the conclusion is racism the crimes of the orcs are justified
youre right about sauron's forces. but the empire was kinda good in a way. they kept order, and the enforcement wasnt even as harsh as the republic. the only real cruel leaders of the empire were some of the officers and Vader himselg
@@masonbaldwin3881 it was certianly not bad for humans, but persecution and enslavement of other species was ride within the empire with no measures taken at all to try to curb it.
Wow. Just wow. Saying that you were reaching isn't even good enough. Come on whoever wrote this episode. You can do better than this. That's a bad! Bad person who wrote this! I know we're always asking for more after hours but... we're willing to wait for a well written one.
Orcs aren't like veterans at all. They're like mutants who are descended from POW's who were tortured and experimented on. Orcs were never elves. Their ancestors were.
Two Mewtwos in Too-toos That sounds SO MUCH MORE WORSE. Orcs are killed because "they were born that way"? That be like if people killed any subjugated class of people.
+Pete Atyeo Killing an opressive regime that keeps you into slums for racist reasons is called a revolution and is celebrated in History. ... if you won.
+AcetylsaliciIique I'll try to remember to remind you of this if thousands of people from the third world attack your home town and massacre the unarmed population :)
+AcetylsaliciIique You're implying it's a slum to the orcs. If you looked back on what they did in the second movie with the deforestation, they create these "slums." They are not banished, they're former elves tortured by evil people who they are enslaved by. Either way you slice it, the whole racist card is just another account of pure idiocy in everyone's lack of actual perception.
AND Aragorn is Dunedain. So he already has Elvish blood. The extended version of Two Towers talks about this when it's revealed that Aragorn is 64, despite looking no older than his early 30s. The Elf blood has been diluted in the Dunedain, but it still slows the aging process significantly.
Sorry ur wrong the reason the dunedain have extended life is because they were gifted it by the valar because they fought with them to defeat Melkor not because any elvish blood in him they also got an island James Daniels
To be fair to Elrond, can you imagine being raised by an immortal as a mortal? Knowing you'd die because your mom chose to have kids with someone whose blood would essentially seal your death warrant? That shit ain't cool. Also imagine being a mom and watching your kids die as a matter of course. Elrond's just looking out for his daughter's sanity, and his potential grandchildren's well being.
Well... Elrond is already half human. He watched his brother wither and die because he chose to become mortal to be with a human woman. Elrond was grieving over it for thousands of years and did not want the same thing to happen for his daughter. So yeah.. biiiig sanity hit there.
You're applying to real world logic to a fantasy realm in this: in the real world, there is no race of pure evil, it just doesn't exist. In fantasy? Sure, orcs can be evil just because they are. Second, and more importantly, the whole point of LotR is that everyone is a dick. The good guys aren't evil but they're still jerks, except the hobbits. The hobbits are essentially extremely suburban people, but they're peaceful enough and generally pretty nice.
+Braden Chittick And a few of Numenorean blood (cough Aragorn cough Faramir after he realises the error of his ways, he's only human guys cough). And the Ents. But your point does stand for the most part. The Dwarves are too arrogant and greedy, the Elves are too arrogant and aloof, the Rohirrim are too arrogant and aggressive, etc. Hell, the Hobbits show the flaw of being too secluded to the point of getting invaded because they don't care about what goes on outside of the Shire (and Bree).Basically, every race thinks it's the bomb (except some like the Hobbits and the Ents, who largely don't care-in their ways), and the "Free Peoples" wonder why the Dark Lords keep pulling early wins. Note: the first paragraph is a tail to your last paragraph. I'm saying these guys are also nice. Not sure how clear that actually is how it was just written.
The hobbits are also dicks. Hobbit culture is insular and mistrusting of outsiders. That's the only reason why it's the four literally most openhearted people in the world that come out of the Shire to go on an adventure. The rest of them wouldn't trust some strange tall beardy fellow in a robe as far as they could throw him (incidentally, not very far).
Okay, I think they really screwed up with this episode, but come on. Grey Worm was basically the token by the end. Everyone else who wasn’t white was either killed off or written off. There’s no reason either, GRRM didn’t write it, those two dunderheads did. They took a great series, panicked when they caught up to the canon, and proved their lack of originality and laziness as they drifted further and further from the original source.
+pipuk3 Maybe Pearl Harber wouldn't have happened, since America would have not interacted with Japan before that either and thus do not have pulled them out of their own retreat from the world.
+pipuk3 That's World War II in the Pacific. World War II in Europe might've proceeded differently, though, as we may not have had much incentive to help the British.
No. Mordor was always a barren wasteland. SoM's depiction is not true at all. The plateau of Gorgoroth wasn't ever filled with green grass and trees. The only place with such things are in the southern reaches of Mordor, Nurn.
Tolkien said himself that orcs being corrupted elves is not canon, or rather was retconned. He never did decide for the creation story of the orcs. Also, Morgoth, Sauron's master, did the "corrupting".
Yet again someone not understanding what the point people were making was. It's not that orcs = black people. It's that deeming an entire race as evil is an outdated concept. You can still have evil orc armies but now you can have good ones too. Which IMO is more interesting story telling anyway
@@starwars4427 I'm not saying WotC or Tolkien were saying Orcs = Black people, I'm saying that's what a portion of the DnD community wrongfully believed. Likewise, officially removing inherent evil from races in DnD doesn't change a thing, Every DM I know was already doing that themselves before these changes were even brought up.
@@simoneidson21 According to Tolkien's Books ... yes, they're all evil. The SIlmarrillion really sheds a lot of light on the situation: Humans and Elves were created by Eru Illuvatar. Think God of the Abrahamic Religions. Dwarves were created by an Ainu, a good demi-god effectively (and even then, they started as Men). Hobbits are a bit of a mystery, but we're led to believe they were once Men who, over time, became Hobbits. Orcs are indeed Elves twisted and tortured by Melkor, once the greatest of the Ainur (Demi God), that betrayed Eru Illuvatar and all the good Ainur. He is effectively Satan of the Abrahamic Religions. They are twisted to such an extent they cannot be Elves again. They're the equivalent of people possessed by Demons that cannot be cured I suppose (since corrupted Maiar exist, which are basically Demons). Trolls are Ents twisted and tortured by Melkor as well. See a theme here? Eru and the Good Ainur create, while Melkor (and later Sauron and Saruman) only corrupt.
It totally doesn't count because After Hours only covers TV and Movies, never any possible source material (unless the source material is also TV or Movies).
+error2k2 That wasn't Crabbe, that was Blaise Zabini, who is already black in the books. They only had Zabini take Crabbes place in the movies because the actor who played Crabbe was arrested for selling marijuana.
So Sauron is the good guy because he's an underdog and his corruptions are disliked? He and his corrupted beings are hated because their very nature is destructive. Elves believe in preservation of things while their counter race, the orcs, just wish to destroy and corrupt it.
I like to think of it as the one ring amplifies the natural power of the wearer. The reason why we only see it as an invisibility ring is because we only see hobbits wear it, creatures that are naturally stealthy
Wow, just forgetting the fact that Sauron's boss enslaved the elves, tortured them to the point of disfigurement, and completely brain-washed them into doing his bidding. And how was the ring evil when it didn't exist for THOUSANDS of years after Sauron was already conquering peaceful sovereign lands in the North?
I really feel Soren's pain. It must be terrible to just sit there and have the Silmarilion completely disregarded, and to have Boromir called Browny McShield Fight Man. I usually enjoy After Hours but this was just terrible. On another note, The Fellowship of the Ring states that the Ring gives different powers to different people according to their personalities. Frodo can turn invisibile, and in the book has sharpened senses, because of his personality. Same goes for Gollum. Sauron can use the ring to literally dominate. If Gandalf took it who knows what kind of power you'd get. The Ring is not only a hunk of metal with Sauron's soul inside a la Horcrux, but is also an incredibly powerful magical artifact.
+Max Pinto Also, Orcs and Uruk Hai hate each other, and presumably only march together because of Sauron's evil will uniting them. Look at the tower of Cirith Ungol when they have free time. Unified force my arse.
I wonder if that was the point behind this entire video. To generate salt. This whole video is a joke. Granted, Cracked has said a lot of stupid things in the past( like imagining Idiocracy as a paradise) but this one is next level.
If you want to get technical he wasnt evil until he thought of the one ring because he is the one who created the rings for all the other kings but when he thought of the one ring the idea for power corrupted him
@@orochimaru1299 Don't be silly. He was evil thousands of years before he made the One. He was evil in the First Age of the world, when Luthien outsang him and Morgoth.
Everyone in this video made completely idiotic claims except for Soren, who utterly demolished them. So they kept cutting him off. "Are you really going to play the race card in a fantasy world?" Pretty much the point where I lost it XD
2:13 calls a group "...lovable misfits" and then shows same group rejoicing over an opportunity to engage in cannibalism. ... yeah...lovable... Man, I didn't even think of myself as that much of a Tolkien fan until I started watching this video and felt my ire rising. Time to go geek out.
When I was a kid my dad (whose read the silmarillion) told me the ring has different powers depending on who's wearing it. It just makes hobbits invisible because their whole thing is that they're good at not being seen. For humans it would give them like super strength or whatever and maybe knowledge for the elves.
Amazing the number of comments left that show people don't get the premise of the After Hour's joke. Probably don't understand the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy books either.
To be fair, this is something J.R.R. Tolkien also grappled with, and never really found a good solution for. As a devout Catholic, he believed that evil could never create, but only corrupt. Which meant that the Orcs, at one point, had to have been good, and then corrupted. Which meant they were still capable of doing good, even as nasty, brutish, and enthusiastically cannibal sadistic as they were. Tolkien struggled to find a way to explain this, and to rectify it in universe, and while he had a few theories to bat around, he never finalized it. It remains one of the biggest Tolkien questions out there, and it's kind of sad we didn't see him explore the implications of 'moral Orcs' more.
Ignoring the subjectivity of evil and good for a second, obviously it's false that evil could never create. I created a few videos on my channel. Maybe you can claim that I am just remixing my experiences, but that's no different than a "good" person creating something the same way.
They mentioned that part of Sauron's soul is in the ring but don't play off it too well. With that one could argue that Sauron is just trying to regain a part of himself that he has lost (in the ring) and that someone else now owns.. Imagine if some force had a part of you and randomly you just felt someone leeching of you to accomplish something, that is the literal definition of a parasite, they don't help Sauron by using 'his power' in fact they use it against him.
To be honest, the US provided less than 15% of the forces that went on to win D-Day in World War 2 and had very little to do with the final planning. Despite every American war film stating they single handedly won the war... it's possible the allied European forces could have won without them. Of course, no direspect meant to those who did take part & lost their lives for our freedom.
+Danté Solablood the big thing the US entry the war did was provide a moral boost to troops that had already been fighting in shitty conditions for a while. Though the Allies probably would've defeated Germany & Italy either way because Hitler choose to take on General Winter, which is not a good idea, it's hard to say what would've happened with Japan since they almost exclusively fought the US.
+Danté Solablood They did provide fresh troops that helped the allies to follow through with their plans. It's likely that the allies would have eventually won without the U.S., but it probably would have led to more casualties for them. It also led to a quicker end to the conflict. Which is a good thing when the world is at war.
phantomrachie Very true. It's interesting to note that Japan got involved with America because of World War 2. The US had been secretly attacking German ships near Asian waters well before Pearl Harbour.
Encyclopedia of Thoughts I agree, my main issue is the perversion of history in American movies such as U571, which shows the Americans capturing the Enigma Machine... which of course actually a British victory. This is in hand with films like The Patriot (hope I got the right movie) which portrays the British as murderous untrustworthy scum.
+Danté Solablood BS. The fact is that even before the US OFFICIALLY entered the war, the Roosevelt Administration was providing both intelligence and material support to the British and Russians, thus, in effect, the US was already participating in war, even as Churchill was publicly was requesting direct intervention. Doesn't sound like the Europeans, who were fighting the Axis (i.e. Germany, Italy and Japan) would not have guaranteed crap. Sorry, your anti-Americanism is SO tired.
Elrond is peeved over the relationship with Aragon because she is a half elf (they are given the choice of mortality or immortality) and if she chooses to be with Aragon, which she does, she will become mortal, which is something they completely skipped over in the movies
Well not if you read the introduction where Tolkien himself said that is not the case and even gave a brief description of how lotr would have been different if it were modeled after WW2, but whatever
Yes but imaging a character as pure evil is shallow. Characters even those like Sauron have motivations, both Hitler and Sauron are leading people who are down on their luck. The Orcs are see as a stupid brutish warlike people, though they were made that way by their accusers. Their environment was tough and they had to be hardy, their conservative mistrust and aggressive stance towards neighbors obviously is the act of a lonely desperate society in need of help. Instead they get the opposite, more or less forcing them to war since there is no alternative due to the coalition against their very peoples.
Orcs aren't necessarily down on their luck as in they are a separate race. they are tortured pows once elven, they are mutilated and twisted by the power of morgoth and forced by whip and lash, ashamed of and twisted what they are become, they cannot even withstand daylight and only allowed solace in evil and hate and the Germans aren't necessarily stupid, that's why operation paperclip was a thing. Not only that, The Germans were a country with deep seated prejudice to begin with, with thousands of years of being warlike and discriminatory that's why it was so easy to feed the beast. the orcs are more like if a almost hippie like pow became susceptible to multiple brainwashing and taught that only malice would stop the pain which is far more complex, tragic, and interesting than government approved piracy, with an extremely prejudice foundation, not only that but the germans had multiple times when they could have stopped war or even prevented it all together they were given seizure of Czechoslovakia, austria, and the rhine land with out the option for war it is until they forcibly invaded poland that a war happened because hitler was a mad man that was totally irrational in his idiotic efforts for power, sauron was cold and calculating and actually had a hope of succeeding and arguably if he installed a handrail on mount doom he would have won. goes to show the necessity for building codes
I was expecting Cracked to go down the 'Sauron isn't evil because the ring corrupted him' path, perhaps reasoning that the 9 kings had created the powerful rings and were ergo responsible for the corrupting influence of power, which would have made a lot of sense, but then it turned into yet another Cracked racism comparison of political correctness 'must score points verbally' with no less than two Hitler references. Future generations will look back, and see this generation as one that spoke a lot of shit about equality, but didn't actually do anything to further it.
Also, the 9 kings didn't make their rings. Sauron did. Then he used his One Ring, which was already corrupt and evil, to corrupt them (even further than they already were).
Goblins and Orcs hated each other to the point that when Frodo's mithril shirt was found they killed each other over it. Sauron developed a society war and violence, a society where might makes right, and this is why it collapses instantly the moment Sauron is destroyed. Maybe the orcs, goblins, and trolls could have gotten along without his evil influence, but that doesn't seem likely.
He also made it out of himself. Literally by pouring bits of his soul into it. “His hatred, his cruelty, his will to dominate all life.” There’s nothing in the ring that Sauron didn’t put there.
Plus, if they're using Harry Potter links (for some reason), Voldemort AND the Horcruxes are evil (Seriously, that's seven people dead just from that, doesn't seem like he was all sunshine and rainbows beforehand). I know these videos are made more for entertainment than accuracy, but it's still annoying.
@@y200subMwhaha I am pinging you 4 years late! Celebrimbor created the 3 elven rings by himself after Sauron taught him how to create the rings. Sauron created the one ring in secret pooring his malice and will to dominate all life.
I usually like these and can look past the mistakes, but this one just makes stupid points. Comparing pow's to returning vets with ptsd, how did that pass by any of the writers as any sort of valid point.
This is the series that says women being badass through violence isn't feminist because 'violence is masculine', you people need to stop expecting coherent points
Welp, now there are some people who believe that since they believe Rowling is, that means if you like Harry Potter, you want to ɢenoçɨde Tɾɑnspeople. So LoTR's could be next.....
@@ChodeMaster Sauron is nothing like Stalin, if anything Sauron is the epitome of an industrial capitalist boss in a world in which agrarian feudalism is fading away
Why aren't there any intelligent analyses of LOTR on the internet? All I seem to find are immature, loud-mouthed vloggers who love to reference pop-culture.
If you want "intelligent analysis" you should probably look into a subject that's not a cartoonish folk tale for children written by a guy who cared 1000x more about linguistics than about worldbuilding.
+Kirbyoto2098 Right, because writing thousands of years of high fantasy history with fully fleshed out mythologies, societies, languages, races, conflicts etc. clearly means you don't care about worldbuilding. I'd love to hear what you consider to be good worldbuilding.
I think he was trying to say that the author of the original comment is a bit of a snobbish elitist. Sure, this video sucks, but even as a huge LOTR fan, I find it ridiculous how sensitive some fans are when it comes to their favourite book. It seems like some of them think that LOTR is some kind of a holy scripture that should never be criticized or mentioned in vane. They also often feel the need to trash the Harry Potter books. There is even a Toptenlist list about why LOTR is better than HP and it beautifully demonstrates how pretentious some of these fans are.
Wow. Elrond isn't angry about a mixed-race relationship he's worried about Arwen. He knows that eventually Aragorn is going to die and Arwen is also going to die from depression.
Ohhhh no you didnt just pull the race card on Lavender Brown?! It wasn't specified what race she was until the 5th book, by that time, the first movies had already been made and they just went with it until J.K. went all like "oh, btw. she was white all along"
"ok, so the Silmarillian 100% invalidates our argument and is as Cannon as it get, so we are just going to discard it and pretend it doesn't count so we can make an argument that instantly falls apart under any real cannon scrutiny" ~cracked
1) Sauron is the one who tortured and deformed elves into orcs, then enslaved them to do his bidding 2) Orcs eat each other and betray each other constantly for power 3) Sauron curropts the land with his gaze and has the orcs pillage it for resources which makes it shitty 4) The entire reason for war is so that Sauron can expand and become stronger, they arent trying to leave middle-earth I could go on as many in the comments do, but seriously, i feel like after hours became lazy with their premises after the first 2 seasons...
Among many, one of the key problems in this video is that they start out talking about why Sauron is actually good. And then they talk for the rest of the time about why orcs are innocent (they're wrong about that too, of course). They give very little evidence for why Sauron himself could possibly be good, which is what the title promised to do.
I think the orcs are more of a question which is the same question that is asked in life. Is your morality, laws, and moral logic strong enough to stand the test of time against the true laws of the universe? And the answer is time and time again that the only real laws which cannot be broken are the laws of the universe. As a society we make laws to how we think everyone would like. But obviously, this is not the case as evidenced by Melkor existing.
Honestly this one seems like such a perfect analogy for why the current politically correct generation is making exactly incorrect moral assumptions and conclusions about the world at large. But that's just me.
The one ring actually enhances attributes. Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam all turned invisible because their races are naturally quiet. I mean, Sauron was wearing it and nothing visibly happened to him.
+noobmaster117 That's one of the things I really don't like about Epic Medieval Fantasy. Why not augment their personal attributes? Why must the Ring work on RACIAL attributes? I feel their make race too important in those stories, that's why they come off as racist.
noobmaster117 It's not the same. Flying and breathing a different substance than air are big differences. It's not like Hobbits have limited chameleon-like abilities to change color and the Ring ramps it up to full blown invisibility.
Malcom Chase they have naturally padded feet, sensitive hearing, are small, and have a connection to the land. If you watch My Little Pony, it's like how Earth Pony's are stronger and better at farming. Nobody thinks twice that a Q is basically a god or that Time Lords all seem to be naturally gifted with technology. Sci-fi has just as many race specific attributes.
>Carefully avoiding the scene in return of the kings where all the orks of different breeds kill each other in the tower. >Using the movies and only the movies for the argument. >Call a fantasy world based on north european myths racist for not including people of other ethnicities Cracked is running out of ideas.
It would be Katie who goes off on a social justice rant about how orcs are just a oppressed racial/cultural minority, therefor the evil eye in the sky that wants to cover all of existence in dark shadowy death is the good guy because his army is made up of what Katie probably only sees as African Americans(After all, all the main characters in the movies are on a spectrum starting at pale as driven snow, to ever so slightly tan, which is a problem on its own). The last few episodes have just been her going off on the other three about how everything is sexist/racist or just bad for women. If ever they brought up how a movie treats men like shit, her head would probably explode all over the nice people there to actually eat.
+TheWolfkiller01 wow talk about viewing everything through one lens. It's a perfectly valid interpretation of the books & films. The Elves are immortal creatures who think of themselves as superior to everyone, the Orcs are a people banished to a shitty place who (it could be interpreted) are just trying to find a better place to live. In the Lord of the Rings, we are told Sauron is evil but we don't see him do much (apart from attack with his Orcs) but we do see some of the Elves & Humans preform some morally objectionable actions. Personally I don't think there are any Good guys in Lord of The Rings, just varying levels of total douche. It's an interesting interpretation, which is what After Hours is about, interpreted pop culture in different ways.
The elves are indeed shitty people who think everyone is shittier than they are. That's irrelevant. The orcs are objectively evil. They are not just a downtrodden folk down on their luck, trying to get to the beautiful land of LITERALLY everyone else. They are a brutal race who destroyed the land that they had with war, and now want to destroy everything else via the same, united under an evil mastermind who wants to, again, cover the world in shadowy death. If the Humans preform morally objectionable actions, than the Orcs preform morally bankrupt actions that are utterly unforgivable. Destroying whole cities. Murdering COUNTLESS people. If they are simply trying to get to a better place, what is stopping a man who has gambled himself into poverty from just murdering the richest man alive and taking his place?
+phantomrachie Well, the Orcs didn't really seem to mind the darkness, since the light hurts them, and the fact that they kept destroying everything. And as for Sauron, he put his evil desire for domination etcetera into it so it could give him more power and, if found by another, would corrupt them too until it ended up with Sauron again. I love Sauron, but the idea of him being a good guy will never really work for me.
Silent Solitude I'm not saying there aren't holes but it is interesting interpretation Many of the After Hours theories have holes in them.. I also think the title is misleading, the conversation never goes into Sauron being a good guy, just that the Orcs may not be as objectively evil as people think. For example people say that the fact that they are cannibals makes them objectively evil - however depending on the circumstances cannibalism is not necessarily evil, for example if you are stranded on a mountaintop with nothing to eat but the dead bodies of your fellow passengers. It could be argued that because Orcs seem to lack the ability to farm (due to the land they live on and the fact that they are tortured insane elves) and because little else lives in Mordor, cannibalism is not morally wrong for them because they have no other food source. Not something I would necessarily agree with but an interesting idea none the less.
Well said! I have been trying to tell my non-orc friends this for ages! I thank you arguing humans for shedding light on what makes my dark lord and master Sauron so wonderful! I would like to touch on a couple talking points you made though. 1. We do have a great, free healthcare system available in Mordor. It's capable of being free because most orcs just tend to die in battle, you save a great deal of gold when you don't have to pay for someone's medical bills. 2. We have excellent schools here too! Our military offers free college tuition for joining the military...obviously our whole nations is a military force, so free college for everyone. We have a healthy balance of patriotism, individuality, and comradery. Also, who else on middle earth had figured out gun powder or how to make crossbows? 3. Orcs are not really racist, we show animosity to everyone equally, it's all about individual merit if you want to be accepted or followed. With the exception of Halflings...hate those filthy things. 4. Sauron is actually a very good boss. He's a "Leads from the front" kind of master and that really speaks volumes about him. He let his forces fight first, let them get a confidence boost by winning it themselves, then and only then does he step in to help out when he realizes his followers are being taken down. What other king does that? 5. We make great strides to take care of our environment! We have numerous policies in place to try to preserve trees and whatnot. However, We are next to volcanos, meaning plants don't do well, also we get invaded and attacked by some new coalition every few years, we have to use it for weapons. 6. We adhere to Rules of War. When we take POWs we at least keep them alive. How many POWs did the elves murder? And yet we are considered the bad guys. ...well, that seems to be a few talking points. I think I should just make a video going more in depth...well then I guess it will be out by this weekend. Alright "Cracked" you have caught my attention.
Their entire argument is predicated on the idea that people can't change, which is explicitly wrong. Immortality wouldn't change that. If TJ was still alive, there is literally zero reason to believe he would still hold any of the random bullshit ideas he had back in the day. Think about your own life for a moment. Do you still hold all of the same opinions you did 10 years ago? I used to be really for the 2ed amendment, and then Sandy Hook happened. That is just one aspect of my miserably short life. All immortality would do is mean it is the same people going though the changes of society rather than their descendants.
+darksean99 exactly!!! but that is not even the reason why they are spewing bullshit, that's because all their facts are wrong, and also because they didn't bother to look at the meta, tolkien had been accused of racism for the exact opposite reason of what they are saying here, because all the species were racial caricatures and the ones that had coincidences with the most marginalized were evil, so if what they are saying is true, then you are canceling out the racism with racism, it's just dumb, im so fucking sick of pc culture taking over otherwise good channels, they have a video that says air conditioners are sexist.
I once really liked After Hours, but I get somewhat weary that it feels like it is mostly just every time just about sexism and racism these days. Look, the imortality issue was a great point, but it was immediately used in connection with sexism and racism too.
The reason the one ring is so important is because it amblifies the power of the user. So in the hands of a weak Hobbit or dwarf it grants invisibility but in the hands of a more powerful creature it would be incredibly powerful, that's why gandalf makes such a huge effort to never touch the ring, it would make him God like and it would corrupt him
No good guy can be defeated by throwing a single object of theirs into a volcano. That is strictly villain weakness.
+Warden Wing The truest thing I've read. Thank you for this.
Well, if Isilidur had thrown Narsil into the fires of the mount Doom, all middle earth would fall
+TheJokerCell
No, if Primula had drowned while pregnant, THEN the Middle Earth would fall.
+Warden Wing Because Good Guy don't put pieces of their souls into inanimate objects of power. Did Harry Potter teach nothing to you ?
+Warden Wing Throw my penis into a volcano, I'd be pretty defeated in life.
The orcs are a subjugated class because Sauron subjugates them.
And, yeah. immortality does corrupt... aaand it's Sauron's fault. He gave the humans immortal and turned them into wraiths. Whisps of humanity hurt by base fears and desires being exploited.
The elves are still there because Sauron's presence prevents the rightful age of man from comming. The elves only leave at the end because Sauron removes the last thing tying them to the world.
Even if the free people's are unreasonable narrators, Sauron is still the source of all super-human evil in the 3rd age.
As to what the ring actually does: it lies. It does just enough to convince it's bearers to embrace their darkest ambitions. Because hobbits just want comfort, food and friends, they're able to carry the ring a lot more effectively, but give it to somebody who, say, wants to protect the nature of the world, and they'll become a eco-terrorist justifying horrible actions in the interest of their desires until they twist and corrupt into an immortal shell of whatever noble ambition they once had.
+William Arnold But, but, but. Saron is inclusive in who he enslaves... which vaguely aligns with our BS modem sensibilities of being overly multiculturalist, which makes him secretly the good guy.and, Orcs have a sad origin story so killing them when they try and eat you is a hate crime - Cracked - Cracked
+William Arnold Does he subjugate the orcs? I interpreted it that he led them, but that had more to do with the Orcs following him because he was powerful. And since Melkor was the one who twisted the orcs into their current form and is now gone, it kind of looks like Sauron is leading a race that descends from slaves.
I am a little unclear on how Sauron is preventing the age of man from coming, I thought it was the elves that were hanging on, and it was the destruction of the One Ring that caused the Elf rings to stop working and thus allowing magic to fade. Were the elves unable to leave so long as the magic was around? Or am I just unclear on the meta-physics of this universe?
+Joshua Pelfrey well the reason their rings still had power was because of the one ring, and yes they couldn't leave as long as there was magic in middle earth. and sauron did enslave, whip and forced the orcs to fight for him, just like the trolls. the goblins are a bit of a different story. the orcs are (like stated in the vid) tortured elves, tortured by melkor to be used as weapons. sauron uses those weapons. orcs are used as tools.
+Joshua Pelfrey you are right
This is one of the best descriptions of The One Ring I've ever read.
the Orcs only march into battle together as they are backed up by the dark magic of Sauron, he is effectively controlling them, when he dies the Orcs panic and flee, and resort to infighting
+Field Marshal Fry Yeah. Sauron's main schtic is controlling and manipulating.
+Field Marshal Fry He dies?!?! Spoiler alert warning!
+Field Marshal Fry Also, there was plenty of infighting BEFORE Sauron was defeated. The Uruk Hai are despised by non-Uruk Hai orcs and the feeling's mutual. Also, trolls are basically slaves, they are literally whipped into doing manual labor. But yes, other than that, they get along just fine.
+Field Marshal Fry In Shadow of Mordor a big gameplay element is the fact that the ring has the ability to control the minds of orcs....also there is mass enslavement of humans by orcs....and then they sometimes also eat said human slaves....
There's an inherent problem with the races of Mordor wanting a bigger
slice of Middle Earth - they greatly dislike direct sunlight. That's why
they hang out near Mount Doom as the volcanic ash acts as a filter.
They're not harmed by it, but it is morale sapping just as the dark
skies over Mordor make men fearful and despairing.
It's another reason there is panic when Sauron goes down. They'd really much rather not be fighting a battle in broad daylight but Sauron's influence was egging them on.
Co-existing isn't really an option as the Orcs would wish to build great environmentally
destructive industry to lower light levels as happens in Isengard (despite Sauruman mostly breeding the fear of light out of them).
I'm impressed with the passion of the commenters refuting the points in this video. I'm a massive Tolkien nerd myself and clearly see the absurdity in this video, but that's all it is, comedy.
Dude, Tolkien fanatics are more passionate than Star Wars aficionados.
@@jacobkleinsasser5658 seeing that at new levels the last few months eh?😉
If Sauron wasn't evil he would not have joined Melkor.
pretty sure we can all agree that Melkor is evil.
Yeah but didn't Sauron betray him because he was... Evil?
+Ebon Hawk yeah and if the one ring is the only thing thats evil why did sauron create it and also why didnt he do what frodo did and destroy it
+Ebon Hawk Was he, though? "History is written by the victor" and all that, so naturally "The Great Enemy" is vilified. How do we know that the elves even interpreted the messages of the Valar and Eru?
Even if he WAS genuinely _evil_, wouldn't that be part of Erus' big plan as well? He was created along with the other Valar to play in the orchestra of creation, and I believe he had a very important purpose in that.
The "Song of Creation" was meant to be a perfect set of harmonies (in the concept of "celestial music" being a creative force), but harmony cannot exist without the concept of disharmony/discord. Being the personification of an actual concept, he had no other way of being other than according to the nature of his concept.
Thoughts?
+KamiKyojin Wow. It's kind of like the "God vs Satan" situation. God created Heaven as this wonderful place full of angels of light. Yet one of the angels he created happened to be Lucifer (who, ironically, was also thought of as a creature that was great in wisdom and perfect in beauty). And what does Lucifer do? He rebels and is cast out of heaven with his followers to earth. I mean, if God knows everything, then he _must_ have known that Lucifer would have done that. So basically, God created his own main rival and enemy because... reasons? Furthermore, he casts him down to the very place he would create human beings, where he knew his enemy would tempt his creations, then at the end of their mortal lives he sends those who don't refuse the temptations to where his rival lives where they are tortured for eternity...
I mean, seriously, what the hell!?
+Tonberry Queen The similarities are well beyond coincidental (althought they might've been subconscious).
Raises the question of free will versus fate as well - how much can one struggle against inherent nature?
Sauron is a good example, once again. For quite some time after the defeat of Morgoth/Melkor Sauron was kept as an "honorary hostage" on the island of Numenor. During this imprisonment it's said he acted genuinely remorsefull, seeing the error of his wicked ways, only to corrupt his captors into decadent degenerates gorging on human sacrifice and rape-orgies...
What if he was actually repentant though, helplessly watching the nobility of mankind slowly sink into the level of inbred decadence we usually associate with the "dark times" of the Roman Empire? What if he was the fall-guy, getting all the shit for something he might've even tried to hinder?
There's also the possibility of Sauron being truly willing to change, but eventually losing out to his nature as a sworn servant to discord - that despite his very best effort, his touch ultimately corrupts what it touches (in this case, the Kings of Numenor who went Caligula-crazy and tried to invade Valinor)...
Either way, I find that story more interesting in many ways =D
and therein lies the strength of The Enemy, his ability to deceive and that he is good. Sauron - The Deceiver
That can work for both sides.
Our therein lies a man trying to defend his unlimited grudge war against a weaker race.
+Corrupted Archangel the lord of the rings has nothing to do with racism except its defense of Jewish culture. Scholars call it ' A corrective rewrite' of German composer Richard Wagner’s 'Ring cycle' Tolkien wrote the dwarves as Jews showing their strength and heroism. As for orcs they are basically angels and demons, read the silmarilion.
Fucking great username btw.
Elessar Telcontar The greatest Trick the devil ever played was convincing the world he doesnt exist
I love how Soren is the LOTR geek.
+Kyle A and then pronounces Gondor, "Gundor".
It's called a script
+Jared Burns Then what's the name of the actor who plays Soren Bowie?
+Nathan Zimmerman No, his name is Soren Bowie, they just right scripts for the episodes to give them sort of different personalities. He may be a LOTR geek in real life, maybe he was just told to act the LOTR geek part.
KidCanuck They are writers for a comedy website that focus on pop culture. I think it's safe to say they is a LOTR geek in real life.
I love how they basically acknowledged that Silmarillion disrupts this entire theory and then dismiss it.
@Jason Boudreau you're both missing the point that this is not serious
I mean. The Silmarillion is basically a bible in Middle Earth. Taking it literally is like taking the Bible literally. If you think of it as an example of in-universe history recorded by the (very biased) elves to codify their prejudices and superiority complex, it doesn't disrupt this theory at all, does it?
@@Demmrir Given that much of the book is actively written by angelic beings... no.
"Overruled!" They aren't talking about the books. Soren wants to, but the others don't. This is a running joke in the series.
I feel like the people commenting on this don't understand that I really do love how they did that. XD I wasn't being sarcastic.
Things wrong with this video:
1. Sauron is Immortal too, By that logic that makes him bad.
2. Southern Mordor isn't that bad, in fact the land around the Sea of Núrnen is arable.
3. Orcs are incapable of good and have limited free will.
4. Orcs don't get along well at all. "The meat's back on the menu, boys!"
5. "War crimes" yeah, right. Because it's not like the Orcs pillaged and burned everything
in their path, right?
6. Again, if Orcs are corrupted Elves, and Elves are supposedly evil, that makes Orcs still
evil.
7."White supremacy" Remember the scene where the Haradrim completely destroy the Rohirrim with Mumakil? Both the Easterlings and Haradrim were pretty badass and formidable in their own right. They were fighting for Sauron because they wanted a reward along with having a bone to pick with Gondor. Not too black and white here.
8. Minas Tirith, not Gundor.
9. Elves were responsible for plenty of progress in Middle Earth. In the First Age, they have flying airships that could travel into the void. But overall magic and fantasy in Middle Earth had been fading away for Millennia, so the Elves aren't to blame anyway.
10. Elrond didn't want Arwen to marry Aragorn because Aragorn would've died eventually (Sometime after the elves left Middle Earth) and Arwen would grieve for the
rest of her immortal life. Besides, Aragorn has the blood of Numenor (Extremely long life), AND Elrond himself is of Mixed Human/Elf Ancestry.
11.The Ring of Power is Sauron's life force. He is bound to its fate and its fate is bound to him. They can't be different because they're both the same entity.
12... Actually, I could go on forever, but I've already done this way longer than any sane person would, so I'm going to stop. Anyway, screw this excuse for left-wing propaganda. I used to like After Hours, now I'm not so sure. You can tell none of them know anything about LOTR or the Silmarillion and are just reciting from a script. Good day.
I applaud to you sir, idk why she think the racist card was perfect hypothesis, maybe she really wants to find racism where there isn't any
+MrOwnerandPwner Thank you. I really disliked this episode, the points they made were not grounded in anything. (Aragorn actually has elf blood way back, he and Arwen are actually EXTREMELY distantly related cousins)
That said, I recommend you check out 'The Last Ringbearer', a parody of Lord of the Rings from the point of view of two Orcs, in which they are the good guys. The idea being that history is written by the victor, and the victors in this case were the elves, dwarves, hobbits and humans.
+Abnormal Oddish So I looked it up on Google, and I have to say it's a very interesting idea. I especially like how the Nazgul were in fact scientists and philosophers that guided the peaceful Mordor through industrialisation. I may give it a read sometime.
+MrOwnerandPwner "I used to like After Hours, now I'm not so sure." Why, dude?
I've read the Silmarilion too and everything about LOTR, still this is fun. I'm not mad.
Because it's comedy, dude.
They also claimed the Empire in Star Wars is good, they claimed Star Wars is racist towards robots, or racist because everyone keeps killing the orcs in LOTR, yet, they're fucking murdering everyone.
Do you not see, that they're just being funny? Just picking random topics, being nerdy, arguing like friends do from time to time. We've all done that. I still don't understand how some friends of mine believe Batman is kind of a bad guy. Do I stop hanging out with them? Would you? Just talks, man.
That's it. Chill, mate, I hope you were being ironic anyway :D
+Sartre Auf Arte Because its jumping on the "everything involving white people must be racist" trope that's literally ruining society.
It doesn't take very much Tolkien lore to refute most of the points made.
Quizzi True. They're as one-sided in their argument as they claim the elves to be. Still, fuck elves, Smug turds.
+Quizzi agreed, given that they were taking evidence not just from the movies but from the silmarillion. of course cracked always needs some crazy contraversial opinion, or else theres no point.
ACCEPT for here the point they make about race is totally valid, because its tolkien, he actually thought like that.
she only watched the movies, I guess this is why Christopher doesn't like them
+Quizzi I came here to basically do exactly that in my head.
+Quizzi
True even if you ignore the books and purely focus on the movies.
You can discount almost every 1 of their arguments.
Immortality doesn't prevent progress.
Saruman and the orcs are all immortal and they were industrial as fuck.
I think this was more about social progress. If a insanely powerful immortal person stay in power for aeons the society would progress a lot more slowly because the one in power stays the same. If the one in power changes every few years, different beliefs can mold the society. Different influences create the progression of society over time.
True, but in this case, you are just switching from a 6 to a half dozen, Sauron is as immortal as elves or even more immortal, (I know that sounds weird and that's why I said it, I liked it), yes Sauron might have a more "progressive", but not really. look than Elves, but they were going away to the "boats of forever leaving", and even the industrial way Goatmon said isn't quite correct, elves and dwarfs are as industrial as orcs, dwarfs are even more, BUT, they have different approaches to it, Elves create their stuff with minimal destruction to local wild life, the dwarfs a little less concerned on the matter, and orcs little to no concern.
About the progress part, do you consider progress as in better weapons or mass producing weapons? (using weapons because is the main thing we see and also the main thing that drove progress in our society in the last loads of years), mass production the Orcs nail it, but in quality, as the Hobbit book puts it Gandalf: finer sword you will not find.
Summing it up: Sauron is as progressive as Elves, but in a more destructive way, proven by the change of Saruman's way, from green to METAAALLL, and that's why the humans win, they die and rest for ever.
(see Warhammer 40K's Imperium of Man)
Immortality only prevent progress if people never changes
"Progress" is in the eye of the beholder. Also, orcs aren't immortal, they have a shorter lifespan than the Dunedain do. (See History of Middle Earth, Volume X: Morgoth's Ring.)
Orcs get along well and are equal? um, no. In the Two Towers orcs and urukhai get in a fight and in Return of the King extended edition orcs get in a fight with each other on the tower of Cirith Ungol and on the way to the Black Gate.
also...I know this isn't canon but... In Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War, the orcs fight and kill each other to climb the ladder of Mordor hierarchy.
"meat is back on the menu boys!"
I'm pretty sure that racism would end after 100 or something years
While not quite as much in the movies, the books describe quite well how the orcs abused and mistreated each other. When unable to be on the battlefield, they often kill each other instead.
The only thing the Orcs hate more than the other races is other orcs. If Sauron and his lieutenants weren’t around to very literally whip the Orcs into formation, they would rapidly descend into in-fighting fueled by self-loathing.
Regarding the comment about Elrond wanting to keep his eleven blood pure...Elrond is half human. Sooooooo.....🙄
So it's like when Hitler considered as best humans those who had blue eyes and blonde hair, even though he didn't have any of those?
No. That's not what it's like. Elrond watched his own immortal brother Elros wither and die, because of his choice of a mortal bride. He's resented and pined for Elros for thousands of years, and he never understood the value of his brother's decision until the end of the third movie.
Elros died because he chose to be human, the choice was given to both of them to choose men or elf and they chose differently. It probably had more to do with the fact that Elrond knew that Sauron was on a war path and that good had little chance at succeeding so he wanted his child to go where she would be safe. Also the thought of living forever and watching your child die is probably not appealing.
Nathanael Heil Let’s be real, living forever is not appealing *period*.
They have no fucking idea! It's so painful!
they seem to have no idea on most of their stuff but then again it makes it all fun to watch. They're just human:) We all have our faults.
You could at least try to make an argument, just pointing it out is meaningless.
WhyDidHeEatThat so true
Would you care to elaborate or did you want to parade how you yourself have no clue?
I hope you have a clue, but I will never know, by the emptyness of your comment.
the girl is super irritating or she just acted to be, both sucks
ASOIAF has plenty of black characters, they were just written out of the show Game of Thrones. Also, racism and discrimination are major themes in the books.
+Jacob Taber in my oppionion there are only 2 charakters in ASOIAF without redeeming features, Ramsay Bolton and Gregor Clegane. Anyone else has at least some positive features.
Greetings
ps. misunderstood black as "evil" in the white/gray/black meaning. (no i'm no racist, i'm just from germany and not that familiar with the nuances of the english language.^^)
+Jacob Taber It also had many characters that seemed to be middle-eastern but were changed to black in the show, e.g. Areo Hotah, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, Salladhor Saan.
+Shariq Torres there are a number of nondiscriminatory reasons for that. The biggest of which being, not that many minorities will audition for shows.
In america that's less and less of a problem (and you've notice a major rise in black characters over the last 3 decades) because more black people live in big town and show up for big auditions. The London population is only about 5% black. even if the numbers reflected population, if 5 out of 100 people were black, hiring them because they were black in spite of their abilities is just as racist as not hiring them despite their abilities. (yes i know despite means in spite of, i just didn't want to use the same 3 words again in the same sentence)
if you look at the BBC there are plenty of black actors and actresses, the problem is that unlike in america the british "dream" isn't to become an actor for most people, most brits don't live for their chance to become a 1in a million star like americans do, they are happy being content. (not all of them, as you can see some of them do go on to be stars, but it's a different culture, a different mind set.)
hell look at one of the most famous brits of the past 100 years. John Cleese, he choose to become an actor because a law office (he was a lawyer) could only pay him 15quid a week, where the BBC was willing to offer him more than double that. He didn't become one of the most famous entertainers of all time because he dreamed of it, he did it because it was the best paying job at the time.
+Jacob Taber It's hard to resist speaking ill of After Hours sometimes, simply because they focus so blindly on screen adaptions. Books usually don't count.
Shariq Torres that's why a black hermione happened? or a black companion to the doctor?
casting directors aren't putting people into roles because they aren't good enough for the role. outside of period drama's race doesn't matter, only acting skill. and there are a lot less trained black thespians in the world than ANY other race. Wanting a job doesn't mean shit if you aren't qualified to work it. Think about a doctor, or a lawyer, if you found out your doctor got his job over another doctor because of his race not his skills, how comfortable would that make you?
but even still, go to a majority black country and tell me when you see a white person on tv, I lived in japan for 8 months, in the 8 months i lived there i only ever saw 3 white people on tv, and that's from the english only channels. the japanese channels, unless someone goes on a killing spree you'd never see a white guy.
The immortal argument isn't extremely effective when you realize that sauron is also immortal
You'd rather have one immortal god-king or have a whole caste of immortal dudes
Because of the ring he is immortal, when it was destroyed he died.
@@A_Black_Sheep94 isn't he still alive, I mean he's a god
@@podroznikzpustkowi4805 No he wasn't. Morgoth, his previous boss was an angel , but Sauron was just a powerful elf.
@@A_Black_Sheep94 That's so completely wrong it hurts. Morgoth is a Valar, a powerful caste of divine beings called the Ainur. Sauron is a Maiar, a lower caste of the Ainur. Gandalf is also a Maiar, just with restricted power and a human form. The only way you could possibly think he's an elf is if you heard that he took an elven form to trick Celebrimbor into making the Rings of Power, but never learned anything else about him. And for the record, no, he is not dead. With the ring destroyed, his power went with it. He's essentially an angry, impotent ghost.
Does Katie have a video where her argument isn't about racism? Hell, I get that literature and film are filled with examples of racism. But at some point a difference argument might spice up the video.
yes
the other argument is about feminism
yes
the other argument is about feminism
I've been wondering about that as well... not all the After Hours videos involve racism or sexism, but if they do, She's always the one to bring it up. any type of suggested oppression... she seems rather obsessed with it honestly.
Seriously, the racism argument is old and untenable. It's just the white guilt bs cracked has been pushing for like 2 years now
+Murphy82nd You do realize that they are playing characters and are probably not writing their own dialogue?
"Sauron poured his malice and will to dominate all living things into the ring" I don't think you can have malice and the will to dominate all life without being evil
Also the sea of nirn is quite beautiful they also treat it terribly and force slaves to cut down trees and farm the hordes
And Elrond doesn't want his daughter to marry because SHE WILL LITERALLY DIE BECAUSE OF IT
GLORFINDEL IS A MAN I THINK YOURE THINKING OF GALADRIEL
"I don't think you can have malice and the will to dominate all life without being evil"
I see that someone hasn't worked in customer service before.
BUT WAIT if he poured it all into the ring then he dosen't have any so thus he could be good (or rather his surviving minions could be since he dies) when the ring was killed
Ok. The one ring only gives hobbits invisibility because they lack power of there own and are innocent. More powerful races like you know elves would become incredibly powerful and corrupt. That's why the other races arn't allowed to carry the ring.
So true invisibility is not the only power one gets from the ring! If any one else had it such as Denathor he could have obliterates Sauron's Army. But he would be just as evil.
exactly. At least that's how I understand it.
Chris Essick then can Sauron carry the ring
*cough* cough* celebrimbor can use it whitout bein corrupted because he put his soul in to the ring too * cough * cough*
coolman's Kappa army Celebrimbor didn't make the one ring.
"The Ring is evil because it literally contains a chunk of Sauron's soul and will inside it, and any action you take under its influence is inevitably to the Dark Lord's benefit. Hobbits are the exception because they have no great ambitions, but they are far from the rule of thumb."
There.
A Horcuxe.
Even then, if hobbits wear it too long they becomes hallow shells of their former selves doomed to the same fate as Gollum.
@@varangiangaming7178
True, but empirically, it’s pretty obvious it takes a much longer time for Hobbits to suffer its influences than any other race. Galadriel didn’t even have to touch it to start craving it, Gandalf outright refused to keep it for any amount of time out of fear of what it would make him do (him, who was a Maia on par with Mairon himself!), and it took many decades to truly wear Bilbo down. Even Frodo didn’t truly succumb to its pull until he was at Mount Doom’s base, where its power was at its strongest (although he came close whenever the Nazgul came close, admittedly).
The rest of your sentence past the part that was in this episode is pointless and would get cut out before it made it to the episode. You don't over explain an aspect of the topic that doesn't move the argument closer to your point. Your point is weakened if you over explain because it just sounds like rambling bullshit because in the context of the conversation, it is.
Yeah this is addressed in the lore it only grants invisibility to Hobbits due to their unassuming and down to earth souls. For others it grants power and coruptuokn
Also golum was a hobbit he's the end result
Oh fuck. Not this again. Sorry but your definition of "good guy" is fucked if it includes "into genocide". I'm all for humourisly misinterpreting movies with straw arguments, but I'm out on this one.
+halim lorette But, but, but. Saron is inclusive in who he enslaves... which vaguely aligns with our BS modem sensibilities of being overly multiculturalist, which makes him secretly the good guy. and, Orcs have a sad origin story so killing them when they try and eat you is a hate crime - Cracked
+darkblood626 Orcs were made of human, elf, dwarf and even wizards (i can't remember the word)
If i remember right the only race that could not become orcs was the hobbits because they were innocent, even Gollum after hundreds of years of corruption and torture was still outside of Sauron's control.
+NoESanity Orcs made from the wizards? I thought there were only five sent to Middle Earth and three can be accounted for. The other two having left for the east.
Jensaw101 the Maiar, when corrupted they would become balrogs but many of them chose to become Maia-Orcs, such as chieftain of misty mountains.
NoESanity
I see, thanks.
This logic is so stupid anyone notice how they conviently skip over the fact that Sauron joins Melkor and all the events of the Silmarillion, basically saying that "that doesn't count because nobody read that and it's not a movie." This is ridiculous.
And now think about why was Melkor considered evil: he was trying to have more freedom in creating the world, he could be seen as someone who was only trying to break free.
***** He admitted that he despised good FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE. He didn't consider killing elves, humans and dwarves to be bad because he killed those who were, from his perspective, bad(just like humans kill orcs: just because they're bad). There is never truly evil side(or there is, but our ,,civilised and progressive'' thinking makes us not to think that).
***** He only admitted that he is what others despise, but that doesn't neccessarily mean that he is what he considers evil. He might have used term ,,evil'' only because it would be easier to be understood that way.
***** Well, darkness might be superior power, we just don't know(both Melkor and Sauron were outnumbered, if it would be even, darkness would probably win). And killing or turning enemy to you cause is what would even the good guys prefer. He hated elves because they were created by those who were against him, he might have considered them as badly created, that would explain why he turned elves into orcs/goblins(not sure what term does english version use, I've read only translated czech version), it could be seen as... liberating them. And if he wished for power and domitaion: can you tell me again what Iluvatar wished? I'll answer: he wished for either complete control or for everything going exactly as he wanted.
***** I know that Melkor and Sauron were not outnumbered when it comes to their army, but I was talking about the gods, Melkor and Sauron against 20 or so gods? That's outnumbering af. And again: how do we know that orcs have small will, because it's told to us? Even if they have small will, they are pretty smart(their technology is much superior against human or elvish technology), that would mean that they are in some sense better then humans or elves. And peace and order means no opposition, no resistance, but it doesn't have to mean good(again, depends on your perspective what you consider as good). And again: Melkor wanted: ,,darkness'' death of creations of his enemies and destruction of, from his perspective bad, old world.
Also... Sauron literally made Mordor into the shit hole it is. If you folks had read the books numerous times like I have, you'd realize this. Instead of focusing on making Mordor beautiful and lovely, Sauron mostly demolishes it in search for resources.
And the Orcs aren't an "oppressed people," they were created by Melkor when he enslaved some elves and corrupted them; he used them to spread death and destruction.
This video got so many things wrong I couldn't finish it.
that literally makes him no worse than most people during the industrial revolution, again progress
AeneasGemini Yes, but Sauron goes the extra mile. He also destroys countryside surrounding Mordor sincerely out of spite. In the book, it's hinted that this horrific destruction, accumulating into vast mountains of ash and burnt Earth (which Frodo, Sam and Gollum lay under at one point) were to be a monument to Sauron, never able to be restored.
also orcs are magically tortured elves morphed into what they are now.
Okay, I'm the first to agree that the elves are bunch of immortal entitled racist douches.
But if that were Saurons beef with them, then hello pot meet kettle.
The fact that Sauron (who is another immortal being BTW) is older than any of the elves, and is driven by continuing the chaotic legacy of his master Morgoth (who is essentially Satan). If we're talking about immortal beings holding the world back and halting progress because of their own vendettas, Sauron takes the cake, he and Morgoth are the reason the orcs exist in their misery in the first place.
The elves may not be perfect but they were decent enough to realize they weren't helping things by remaining and moving on at the end of the story. Imagine Sauron ever doing that?
Also where the heck did the elves have slaves?
Yes I agree but still in almost every fantasy setting elvs have 3 ways to be portrayed, everything good about humanity, racists who think all is inferior cause they are immortal, and Santa's workforce token went with number 2
Sauron literally tortured thousands of elves to turn them into orcs, yep he seems like a swell guy
Apollo9898LPs that's melkor.
She must be a communist lol
Chode Master and a Harry Potter fan
Emre Kaya whom sauron serves
@@Richard_Nickerson however it says how when he breaks the song he attracts many maiar (or however you spell it, I can't remember) including the balrogs. It wouldn't be that far to assume that sauron is included in this. Also, it does when you choose your boss. Sauron decides at some point to join Melkor, we had definitely already done some horrible things no matter when he joined him.
So, good guys secretely being evil is finally boring and bad guys secretely being heroes is the new big thing?
Felt like the main argument was that the elves are evil to prove Sauron is good, so nothing really changed.
+Drace90 this is just another version of Good Guy Lucifer
+Drace90 I guess so, both sound rather boring to me. I always liked the idea of the bad guys being evil, tricking good people into following them, and later the good people finding out. Sort of like Darth Vader, except in my stories the former bad guys turned good don't die 5 minutes later. I like to have reformed villains, fighting with the good guys and being total bad asses. Then you get characters who are fighting on the side of good, but it doesn't feel out of place when they are brutally murdering and torturing their enemies.
scottthewaterwarrior
Great... i guess. The last part made me a bit nervous, but okay. So, you're a storyteller?
+Drace90 Well, sure, that's how culture works. A few decades ago, orcs were evil and always were evil. Look, the Monster Manuel says "Chaotic Evil"! But that's boring. So now orcs tend to be savage nobles, usually from a shamanistic tradition. A few decades from now, there'll be another shift.
Fiction would be dull if we relied on the same unchanged tropes every time. That's Kang's Regiment is my favorite Dragonlance series. Draconians that are not pure and utter evil are more interesting than the alternative.
Can't believe they brought up the Silmarillion and didn't mention how the Dwarves were created and then forced to go back to sleep under a mountain until several eons passed. Talk about your racial oppression.
I wonder what Tolkien was thinking when he wrote these books...
+Dainy Rays I'm really hoping that was sarcasm.
Dunno why Eru did such a thing? Maybe because if dwarfs would woke up before elves and men, at the time of elves and men arrival all Arda would have been turned into one large mining site? Or because Morgoth would have made greedy and arrogant dwarves his minions? Considering how easily dwarves can be corrupted, at the arrival of other races there would be a large army of corrupted and mutated dwarves waiting for them and destroying everything.
He did this because Aule disobeyed Eru.
Yeah and Eru said that they could stay but they weren't destined to be the first because that's not how the song was sung, it wasn't something that Eru decided, rather it was the divine chorus of the Valar inspired by Eru, but clearly other opinions factored in other than just Eru's will otherwise Melkor couldn''t have made his changes. Granted Eru predicted something going awry, and was well prepared for it , but the point of a chorus is to have multiple voices
"Something something I detest alagory."
-J.R.R. Tolkien
I'd just like to second what everyone else is saying and point out that Soren won like, the first five seconds of argument. The only reason this video lasted any longer than that is because the others pretty much literally said "The actual lore and canon of what we're discussing here, which, if taken into account like it should be would win you this argument right now, doesn't count because I arbitrarily decided that. From what we see in the two and a half hour condensed version of three books which don't include the much longer book the author wrote specifically to explain all this, the orcs must be oppressed and Sauron must be a George Washington-esque revolutionary, even though we see in the actual movie that they're actually the oppressors."
Excellent premise, that.
And then they talked about how Elrond is against mixed race relationships.
You are aware he's Elrond *Halfelven*, right? As in he *is* mixed race. His criticism of Arwen's relationship with Aragorn(who, I might add, is also long-lived--he was eighty-odd in the movies) is based out of a desire to keep her from the pain he knew being immortal with a mortal parent.
+The Learned Soldier But, but, but. Saron is inclusive in who he enslaves... which vaguely aligns with our BS modem sensibilities of being overly multiculturalist, which makes him secretly the good guy. and, Orcs have a sad origin story so killing them when they try and eat you is a hate crime - Cracked
the Sillmarillion's cannon-ness is debatable since Tolkien never finished it
+Shariq Torres Ignoring your bait regarding the EU, I disagree. No, they wouldn't. The difference is that Star Wars is a franchise based on movies, so talking about just the movies is fine, because they were deliberately made to be full stories in and of themselves. Lord of the Rings(and basically everything else in the world) is, first and foremost, a book series, and therefore the books are the primary sources, whereas movies would be considered secondary sources. Talking about nothing but Peter Jackson's film adaptations would be like talking about nothing but the EU--yes, you get the gist of what the world is and the story being told, but while ignoring the primary sources is technically acceptable, when you're talking to people who've read/seen/etc. the primary sources, you have to defer to their knowledge, since they know a whole helluva lot more than you. It's why I don't argue about the canon of superheroes with people who own/have read the comic books--yes, I've seen a lot of Marvel's remakes and similar, but I know that I'm no authority on the subject because of that. I know that there will always be more info in the original source material. Do I really want to read the comics? No, not really. Do I try to claim the movies are a higher canon than them? No, because that would be incredibly stupid.
That's what happens when comedians have to make jokes. I'm pretty sure the Star Wars prequels would've made perfect sense to someone who read the Expanded Universe, but to hell with that shit, comedians can't make cheap laughs without ignoring the source materials.
Basically the background plot of Hataraku Maou-sama (The Devil is a Part-Timer).
Except Sauron is definitely evil. The numerous races in Middle-Earth that do his bidding do so because of (1) magical compulsion (lesser-minded beings like Orcs/Goblins/Trolls), (2) fear (Haradrim), and (3) self-interest (Corsairs). Not because Sauron actually has it in their best interest. He wants dominion and power, he cares not for what standard of living those under his dominion get.
And then there is the people that just don't give a fuck and want to watch the world burn and murder as many as possible while doing that. :)
Don't the Haradrim and Easterlings worship Sauron?
Asorban Towel I think so, he spent hundreds or thousands of years brainwashing them into thinking he was a god, which he sorta is,
What, like from the Silmarillion? I haven't read it, but isn't he literally evil in there?
Yeah you hit it on the head Soran won in the first minute but they said the silmarillion doesn't count it's kinda stupid
+Valter Silmarillion explains a lot of things surrounding the epic saga of Tolkien's Middle Earth (and the worlds around it). While they reference certain things in it, they have done this After Hours with thoughts around the movies mainly without being able to know what's in the books. But what fun is there in saying "Orc is bad, Elf is good" and leave it at that?
+Valter Books don't matter when discussing films.
+The 5 dollar film maker It is like discussing one war and ignoring the rest of history and trying to make sense of the entire world based on that alone.
+Valter He is basically the apprentice and right hand man to the physical incarnation and origin of all evil in the world.
Not to mention when they talk about the orcs wanting other parts of middle earth because Mordor is a barren wasteland, it wasn't a barren wasteland before Morgoths forces took it thats what they do to places.
The power of the ring changes on the power of the being wielding it
That’s why Gandalf refused to take the ring from Frodo
Amusing as this is, it kind of glosses over the orcs many atrocities we see DURING the movie. Just because "I want a piece of the pie" doesn't excuse sacking, raping, and pillaging innocent villagers, murdering and eating their helpless children. They never once try to negotiate or peacefully seek an end to their conflict. The first appearance of Sauron's forces, they straight up murder a guy for no reason (the hobbit on the border to Bree), the first appearance of the orcs is when they stalk, track, and attack the Fellowship with no warning, and end with kidnapping (with no parley, truce, or explanation) Pippin and Merry. This is straight up the work of villains. Never, at any point, do we see them act in any good or reasonable manner.
Also, Sauron himself made the ring. So, if the ring is evil, Sauron made it that way. Also, Mordor is a pit of ugliness because the ORCS made it that way. Mordor USED to be beautiful, full of life and peace, but the orcs strip-mined it, destroyed most life, and turned it into a sludge pit of industry and slavery. Also, elves don't own slave, nor do humans. But, surprise! Orcs do! So, who are the bad guys again?
Also, Elrond didn't want his daughter to marry Aragorn because he knew Aragorn was mortal and would die, while Arwen would be left alone on Middle Earth, immortal (since she didn't travel to Elf Heaven with the others), in solitude and in mourning the rest of eternity, and he didn't want that fate for his daughter. He actually respected and loved Aragorn (who actually DOES have half-elf blood in him, as a Dunedain).
This is kind of like the "Empire in Star Wars was really good, and are just protecting themselves from a band of terrorists" BS we hear from snarky bloggers and serious right-wing conspiracy theorists. It's a cute little gag until you actually think it through with an ounce of logic. The Empire massacred a PLANET of INNOCENT people because they thought one or two of them were rebels. That's like saying the USA is fully justified in nuking and ending all life in the entirety of Arabia, Persia, and Mesopotamia because some terrorists live there, and then making pretend that we wouldn't be the most evil country in this part of the galaxy for doing that.
In other words, it works as a momentary, funny, ha-ha, "as if" sort of gag, but doesn't actually work as a serious argument.
The Mongolian horde has entered the forum
You forget this is a bad faith video that has it's conclusion decided and the evidence was picked to support it. Also considering the conclusion is racism the crimes of the orcs are justified
youre right about sauron's forces. but the empire was kinda good in a way. they kept order, and the enforcement wasnt even as harsh as the republic. the only real cruel leaders of the empire were some of the officers and Vader himselg
@@masonbaldwin3881 it was certianly not bad for humans, but persecution and enslavement of other species was ride within the empire with no measures taken at all to try to curb it.
@@masonbaldwin3881 Yeah, they weren't harsh at all to Alderaan...
Wow. Just wow. Saying that you were reaching isn't even good enough. Come on whoever wrote this episode. You can do better than this. That's a bad! Bad person who wrote this! I know we're always asking for more after hours but... we're willing to wait for a well written one.
Orcs aren't like veterans at all. They're like mutants who are descended from POW's who were tortured and experimented on. Orcs were never elves. Their ancestors were.
Like the super mutants in Fallout!
Two Mewtwos in Too-toos That sounds SO MUCH MORE WORSE. Orcs are killed because "they were born that way"? That be like if people killed any subjugated class of people.
Only if that "subjugated class of people" murdered and pillaged for fun as well as eating other people and their own kind.
That's way worse though! Wtf. Imagine if we did that to prisoners' babies today.
ibigrooster11 you do know that that's not how people work right? Like. What the fuck dude?
Feels like the Rings of Power writers got their notes from this video...
2:57 - since when did killing people who have something you want make you a "good guy".
...plus many other silly points that can be easily refuted.
+Pete Atyeo Obviously the murder is justified because... Um... Racism? No, I've got nothing.
+Pete Atyeo Killing an opressive regime that keeps you into slums for racist reasons is called a revolution and is celebrated in History.
... if you won.
+AcetylsaliciIique I'll try to remember to remind you of this if thousands of people from the third world attack your home town and massacre the unarmed population :)
+AcetylsaliciIique You're implying it's a slum to the orcs. If you looked back on what they did in the second movie with the deforestation, they create these "slums." They are not banished, they're former elves tortured by evil people who they are enslaved by. Either way you slice it, the whole racist card is just another account of pure idiocy in everyone's lack of actual perception.
thing is elrond is a Half Elf so to say he wants to keep the pure blood is pretty dumb
Luke Coupland Yeah, the films never mention that, but Soren should have known...it would have given him some ammunition, at least 😀
AND Aragorn is Dunedain. So he already has Elvish blood. The extended version of Two Towers talks about this when it's revealed that Aragorn is 64, despite looking no older than his early 30s. The Elf blood has been diluted in the Dunedain, but it still slows the aging process significantly.
Sorry ur wrong the reason the dunedain have extended life is because they were gifted it by the valar because they fought with them to defeat Melkor not because any elvish blood in him they also got an island James Daniels
So kind of like voldemort then?
What like voldemort
To be fair to Elrond, can you imagine being raised by an immortal as a mortal? Knowing you'd die because your mom chose to have kids with someone whose blood would essentially seal your death warrant? That shit ain't cool. Also imagine being a mom and watching your kids die as a matter of course. Elrond's just looking out for his daughter's sanity, and his potential grandchildren's well being.
Well... Elrond is already half human. He watched his brother wither and die because he chose to become mortal to be with a human woman. Elrond was grieving over it for thousands of years and did not want the same thing to happen for his daughter. So yeah.. biiiig sanity hit there.
"Hello, we understand literally nothing about Sauron.
I hate this episode, the arguments are just awful. Just awful.
You're applying to real world logic to a fantasy realm in this: in the real world, there is no race of pure evil, it just doesn't exist. In fantasy? Sure, orcs can be evil just because they are.
Second, and more importantly, the whole point of LotR is that everyone is a dick. The good guys aren't evil but they're still jerks, except the hobbits. The hobbits are essentially extremely suburban people, but they're peaceful enough and generally pretty nice.
+Braden Chittick And a few of Numenorean blood (cough Aragorn cough Faramir after he realises the error of his ways, he's only human guys cough). And the Ents.
But your point does stand for the most part. The Dwarves are too arrogant and greedy, the Elves are too arrogant and aloof, the Rohirrim are too arrogant and aggressive, etc. Hell, the Hobbits show the flaw of being too secluded to the point of getting invaded because they don't care about what goes on outside of the Shire (and Bree).Basically, every race thinks it's the bomb (except some like the Hobbits and the Ents, who largely don't care-in their ways), and the "Free Peoples" wonder why the Dark Lords keep pulling early wins.
Note: the first paragraph is a tail to your last paragraph. I'm saying these guys are also nice. Not sure how clear that actually is how it was just written.
Granted.
The hobbits are also dicks. Hobbit culture is insular and mistrusting of outsiders. That's the only reason why it's the four literally most openhearted people in the world that come out of the Shire to go on an adventure. The rest of them wouldn't trust some strange tall beardy fellow in a robe as far as they could throw him (incidentally, not very far).
I have rarely felt an anger as great as this, there is no way sauron is good
This entire video is the problem with sjws.
Inexpert Xennial the video is bs, but what does it have to do with real life politics
@@inexpertxennial6067 the video is not serious. It’s comedy
@@anatoldenevers237 it is comedy
@@simoneidson21 well, it's not funny or even entertaining
"Game of Thrones kills off all the non-white characters"
*shows a scene of Greyworm being injured but not dying to falsely prove a point.
Okay, I think they really screwed up with this episode, but come on. Grey Worm was basically the token by the end. Everyone else who wasn’t white was either killed off or written off. There’s no reason either, GRRM didn’t write it, those two dunderheads did. They took a great series, panicked when they caught up to the canon, and proved their lack of originality and laziness as they drifted further and further from the original source.
"would america of helped out in ww2 if TJ was president" yeh cause you know, pearl harbor ? D:
+pipuk3 Maybe Pearl Harber wouldn't have happened, since America would have not interacted with Japan before that either and thus do not have pulled them out of their own retreat from the world.
+pipuk3 Exactly, the only reason uncle sam go involved at all was because japan spilled his milk
+rose novel which wouldve been the right thing to do.
+pipuk3 but not in world war 1, so there would not have been a world war 2.
+pipuk3 That's World War II in the Pacific. World War II in Europe might've proceeded differently, though, as we may not have had much incentive to help the British.
actually shadow of mordor shows mordor was a beutiful place until sauron returns curropting everything
also the orcs were elves who were tortured to the point of only caring of war. by sauron
+colt grisham that very same game also shows celebrimbor whopping sauron's ass with the aid of the one ring. let's... never bring that game up
No. Mordor was always a barren wasteland. SoM's depiction is not true at all. The plateau of Gorgoroth wasn't ever filled with green grass and trees. The only place with such things are in the southern reaches of Mordor, Nurn.
Tolkien said himself that orcs being corrupted elves is not canon, or rather was retconned. He never did decide for the creation story of the orcs. Also, Morgoth, Sauron's master, did the "corrupting".
Shadow of Mordor isn't exactly canon...
"Hating orcs is not a 1 to 1 parallel to real world racism"
Damn Soren being way ahead of us all.
The DnD community thanks you
What? Just because most orcs are evil that doesn’t justifying saying all Orcs and Uruks are evil because they were born that way
@@JD-wu5pf well you don’t, you can just have villains. Properly motivated villains who aren’t villains just because of their race.
Yet again someone not understanding what the point people were making was.
It's not that orcs = black people. It's that deeming an entire race as evil is an outdated concept. You can still have evil orc armies but now you can have good ones too. Which IMO is more interesting story telling anyway
@@starwars4427 I'm not saying WotC or Tolkien were saying Orcs = Black people, I'm saying that's what a portion of the DnD community wrongfully believed.
Likewise, officially removing inherent evil from races in DnD doesn't change a thing, Every DM I know was already doing that themselves before these changes were even brought up.
@@simoneidson21 According to Tolkien's Books ... yes, they're all evil. The SIlmarrillion really sheds a lot of light on the situation: Humans and Elves were created by Eru Illuvatar. Think God of the Abrahamic Religions. Dwarves were created by an Ainu, a good demi-god effectively (and even then, they started as Men). Hobbits are a bit of a mystery, but we're led to believe they were once Men who, over time, became Hobbits.
Orcs are indeed Elves twisted and tortured by Melkor, once the greatest of the Ainur (Demi God), that betrayed Eru Illuvatar and all the good Ainur. He is effectively Satan of the Abrahamic Religions. They are twisted to such an extent they cannot be Elves again. They're the equivalent of people possessed by Demons that cannot be cured I suppose (since corrupted Maiar exist, which are basically Demons). Trolls are Ents twisted and tortured by Melkor as well. See a theme here? Eru and the Good Ainur create, while Melkor (and later Sauron and Saruman) only corrupt.
The Silmarillion totally counts in this debate, so by "over ruling" that, your entire argument is invalid.
Nah. It's just positing that, in universe, it's a biased source. For fun.
It totally doesn't count because After Hours only covers TV and Movies, never any possible source material (unless the source material is also TV or Movies).
I agree. But also every argument they had can be disproven with the movies.
Harry Potter also turned Crabb from white to black so that evens out.
+error2k2 That wasn't Crabbe, that was Blaise Zabini, who is already black in the books. They only had Zabini take Crabbes place in the movies because the actor who played Crabbe was arrested for selling marijuana.
+Jacob Taber he als build bombs
+Jacob Taber And joined riots.
So Sauron is the good guy because he's an underdog and his corruptions are disliked?
He and his corrupted beings are hated because their very nature is destructive.
Elves believe in preservation of things while their counter race, the orcs, just wish to destroy and corrupt it.
I like to think of it as the one ring amplifies the natural power of the wearer. The reason why we only see it as an invisibility ring is because we only see hobbits wear it, creatures that are naturally stealthy
What about Isildur? it granted him invisibility until it decided to abandon him, making him visible to the orc arrows?
@supercheese7033 Shhhhh. That's just a creative liberty Peter Fran and Boyens took. It's not actually how the ring works.
Wow, just forgetting the fact that Sauron's boss enslaved the elves, tortured them to the point of disfigurement, and completely brain-washed them into doing his bidding. And how was the ring evil when it didn't exist for THOUSANDS of years after Sauron was already conquering peaceful sovereign lands in the North?
This is just for comedy, right? They don't actually believe that Sauron is some progressive, good guy leader, right?
I really feel Soren's pain. It must be terrible to just sit there and have the Silmarilion completely disregarded, and to have Boromir called Browny McShield Fight Man. I usually enjoy After Hours but this was just terrible.
On another note, The Fellowship of the Ring states that the Ring gives different powers to different people according to their personalities. Frodo can turn invisibile, and in the book has sharpened senses, because of his personality. Same goes for Gollum. Sauron can use the ring to literally dominate. If Gandalf took it who knows what kind of power you'd get. The Ring is not only a hunk of metal with Sauron's soul inside a la Horcrux, but is also an incredibly powerful magical artifact.
+Max Pinto Also, Orcs and Uruk Hai hate each other, and presumably only march together because of Sauron's evil will uniting them. Look at the tower of Cirith Ungol when they have free time. Unified force my arse.
3-4 years later and the salt in this comment section sustains me still.
Like their points aren’t even wrong (usually), but the salt is super real.
I wonder if that was the point behind this entire video. To generate salt. This whole video is a joke. Granted, Cracked has said a lot of stupid things in the past( like imagining Idiocracy as a paradise) but this one is next level.
u forget to say that orcs fight agaist other orcs as well and the eat humans elves dwarfs and other orcs
but sauron was evil before the ring
The ring is evil because he is evil
If you want to get technical he wasnt evil until he thought of the one ring because he is the one who created the rings for all the other kings but when he thought of the one ring the idea for power corrupted him
@@orochimaru1299 Don't be silly. He was evil thousands of years before he made the One. He was evil in the First Age of the world, when Luthien outsang him and Morgoth.
Everyone in this video made completely idiotic claims except for Soren, who utterly demolished them. So they kept cutting him off.
"Are you really going to play the race card in a fantasy world?"
Pretty much the point where I lost it XD
2:13 calls a group "...lovable misfits" and then shows same group rejoicing over an opportunity to engage in cannibalism. ... yeah...lovable...
Man, I didn't even think of myself as that much of a Tolkien fan until I started watching this video and felt my ire rising. Time to go geek out.
When I was a kid my dad (whose read the silmarillion) told me the ring has different powers depending on who's wearing it. It just makes hobbits invisible because their whole thing is that they're good at not being seen. For humans it would give them like super strength or whatever and maybe knowledge for the elves.
Well that makes me wonder what other powers it has..
Amazing the number of comments left that show people don't get the premise of the After Hour's joke. Probably don't understand the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy books either.
Thank god, After Hours is the only reason I'm still subbed.
To be fair, this is something J.R.R. Tolkien also grappled with, and never really found a good solution for. As a devout Catholic, he believed that evil could never create, but only corrupt. Which meant that the Orcs, at one point, had to have been good, and then corrupted. Which meant they were still capable of doing good, even as nasty, brutish, and enthusiastically cannibal sadistic as they were. Tolkien struggled to find a way to explain this, and to rectify it in universe, and while he had a few theories to bat around, he never finalized it. It remains one of the biggest Tolkien questions out there, and it's kind of sad we didn't see him explore the implications of 'moral Orcs' more.
Ignoring the subjectivity of evil and good for a second, obviously it's false that evil could never create. I created a few videos on my channel. Maybe you can claim that I am just remixing my experiences, but that's no different than a "good" person creating something the same way.
They mentioned that part of Sauron's soul is in the ring but don't play off it too well. With that one could argue that Sauron is just trying to regain a part of himself that he has lost (in the ring) and that someone else now owns.. Imagine if some force had a part of you and randomly you just felt someone leeching of you to accomplish something, that is the literal definition of a parasite, they don't help Sauron by using 'his power' in fact they use it against him.
To be honest, the US provided less than 15% of the forces that went on to win D-Day in World War 2 and had very little to do with the final planning. Despite every American war film stating they single handedly won the war... it's possible the allied European forces could have won without them.
Of course, no direspect meant to those who did take part & lost their lives for our freedom.
+Danté Solablood the big thing the US entry the war did was provide a moral boost to troops that had already been fighting in shitty conditions for a while. Though the Allies probably would've defeated Germany & Italy either way because Hitler choose to take on General Winter, which is not a good idea, it's hard to say what would've happened with Japan since they almost exclusively fought the US.
+Danté Solablood They did provide fresh troops that helped the allies to follow through with their plans. It's likely that the allies would have eventually won without the U.S., but it probably would have led to more casualties for them. It also led to a quicker end to the conflict. Which is a good thing when the world is at war.
phantomrachie Very true. It's interesting to note that Japan got involved with America because of World War 2. The US had been secretly attacking German ships near Asian waters well before Pearl Harbour.
Encyclopedia of Thoughts I agree, my main issue is the perversion of history in American movies such as U571, which shows the Americans capturing the Enigma Machine... which of course actually a British victory. This is in hand with films like The Patriot (hope I got the right movie) which portrays the British as murderous untrustworthy scum.
+Danté Solablood BS. The fact is that even before the US OFFICIALLY entered the war, the Roosevelt Administration was providing both intelligence and material support to the British and Russians, thus, in effect, the US was already participating in war, even as Churchill was publicly was requesting direct intervention. Doesn't sound like the Europeans, who were fighting the Axis (i.e. Germany, Italy and Japan) would not have guaranteed crap. Sorry, your anti-Americanism is SO tired.
A wedding ring, the one ring to rule them all
+Michael Mendoza so true :)
+PixelatedDonkey ew shut up straight person
Elrond is peeved over the relationship with Aragon because she is a half elf (they are given the choice of mortality or immortality) and if she chooses to be with Aragon, which she does, she will become mortal, which is something they completely skipped over in the movies
just saying but Sauron was literally modeled after Hitler.
Well not if you read the introduction where Tolkien himself said that is not the case and even gave a brief description of how lotr would have been different if it were modeled after WW2, but whatever
Not to mention the Tolkien fought in the first World War not the second. So if anything the books are a reflection of that conflict.
Yes but imaging a character as pure evil is shallow. Characters even those like Sauron have motivations, both Hitler and Sauron are leading people who are down on their luck. The Orcs are see as a stupid brutish warlike people, though they were made that way by their accusers. Their environment was tough and they had to be hardy, their conservative mistrust and aggressive stance towards neighbors obviously is the act of a lonely desperate society in need of help. Instead they get the opposite, more or less forcing them to war since there is no alternative due to the coalition against their very peoples.
Orcs aren't necessarily down on their luck as in they are a separate race. they are tortured pows once elven, they are mutilated and twisted by the power of morgoth and forced by whip and lash, ashamed of and twisted what they are become, they cannot even withstand daylight and only allowed solace in evil and hate and the Germans aren't necessarily stupid, that's why operation paperclip was a thing. Not only that, The Germans were a country with deep seated prejudice to begin with, with thousands of years of being warlike and discriminatory that's why it was so easy to feed the beast. the orcs are more like if a almost hippie like pow became susceptible to multiple brainwashing and taught that only malice would stop the pain which is far more complex, tragic, and interesting than government approved piracy, with an extremely prejudice foundation, not only that but the germans had multiple times when they could have stopped war or even prevented it all together they were given seizure of Czechoslovakia, austria, and the rhine land with out the option for war it is until they forcibly invaded poland that a war happened because hitler was a mad man that was totally irrational in his idiotic efforts for power, sauron was cold and calculating and actually had a hope of succeeding and arguably if he installed a handrail on mount doom he would have won. goes to show the necessity for building codes
I was expecting Cracked to go down the 'Sauron isn't evil because the ring corrupted him' path, perhaps reasoning that the 9 kings had created the powerful rings and were ergo responsible for the corrupting influence of power, which would have made a lot of sense, but then it turned into yet another Cracked racism comparison of political correctness 'must score points verbally' with no less than two Hitler references.
Future generations will look back, and see this generation as one that spoke a lot of shit about equality, but didn't actually do anything to further it.
What would you have liked to see them do in the video to fix or help assuage to problem of racial inequality?
Also, the 9 kings didn't make their rings. Sauron did. Then he used his One Ring, which was already corrupt and evil, to corrupt them (even further than they already were).
Goblins and Orcs hated each other to the point that when Frodo's mithril shirt was found they killed each other over it. Sauron developed a society war and violence, a society where might makes right, and this is why it collapses instantly the moment Sauron is destroyed. Maybe the orcs, goblins, and trolls could have gotten along without his evil influence, but that doesn't seem likely.
"What if Sauron isn't evil, but the RING is evil?"
But Sauron made the ring himself
Celebrimbor made the ring
He also made it out of himself. Literally by pouring bits of his soul into it. “His hatred, his cruelty, his will to dominate all life.” There’s nothing in the ring that Sauron didn’t put there.
Plus, if they're using Harry Potter links (for some reason), Voldemort AND the Horcruxes are evil (Seriously, that's seven people dead just from that, doesn't seem like he was all sunshine and rainbows beforehand).
I know these videos are made more for entertainment than accuracy, but it's still annoying.
@@y200subMwhaha I am pinging you 4 years late! Celebrimbor created the 3 elven rings by himself after Sauron taught him how to create the rings. Sauron created the one ring in secret pooring his malice and will to dominate all life.
Tony made Ultron? 🤷
"Ragtag group of lovable misfits." "Looks like meats back on the menu boys!" LMAO
the woman is the worst. in every one of these.
she's the hole
hardly. she's actually quite funny. and her points are normally quite good.
badwith names her voice is irritating and women aren't funny
I usually like these and can look past the mistakes, but this one just makes stupid points. Comparing pow's to returning vets with ptsd, how did that pass by any of the writers as any sort of valid point.
TriNut and how they glaze over the super valid fact that the orcs literally destroy the land around them.
not to mention that orcs are actually TORTURED ELVES. Just that ONE point breaks apart like 80% of their arguments and concerns.
This is the series that says women being badass through violence isn't feminist because 'violence is masculine', you people need to stop expecting coherent points
@@Minumer if that's what you took away from that episode that's more on you than it is on them.
New item on my bucket list: Enter a crowded restaurant and shout "Everyone that likes Lord of the Rings is racist now!''
Yeah..well who isn't?
How the hell did you predict that
You will get beaten.
I don't know if by white people or black people, but someone is going to beat you up.
Welp, now there are some people who believe that since they believe Rowling is, that means if you like Harry Potter, you want to ɢenoçɨde Tɾɑnspeople. So LoTR's could be next.....
there wasnt much about sauron in this, it was more like elves are secretly the bad guys
Huh, except that Sauron was a genocidal maniac. So......
Saurin = Stalin
Chode Master exactly
@@ChodeMaster Sauron is nothing like Stalin, if anything Sauron is the epitome of an industrial capitalist boss in a world in which agrarian feudalism is fading away
@@comradesteve1990 haha, Tolkien would beg to differ with you pinko.
@@ChodeMaster I'm not pink I'm full on red
Why aren't there any intelligent analyses of LOTR on the internet? All I seem to find are immature, loud-mouthed vloggers who love to reference pop-culture.
Dae Dalus I always cringe at these kinda of videos because they literally know nothing about lord of the rings.
If you want "intelligent analysis" you should probably look into a subject that's not a cartoonish folk tale for children written by a guy who cared 1000x more about linguistics than about worldbuilding.
+Kirbyoto2098 Right, because writing thousands of years of high fantasy history with fully fleshed out mythologies, societies, languages, races, conflicts etc. clearly means you don't care about worldbuilding. I'd love to hear what you consider to be good worldbuilding.
I think he was trying to say that the author of the original comment is a bit of a snobbish elitist. Sure, this video sucks, but even as a huge LOTR fan, I find it ridiculous how sensitive some fans are when it comes to their favourite book. It seems like some of them think that LOTR is some kind of a holy scripture that should never be criticized or mentioned in vane. They also often feel the need to trash the Harry Potter books. There is even a Toptenlist list about why LOTR is better than HP and it beautifully demonstrates how pretentious some of these fans are.
miguelitoXXL LOTR is definitely not my favorite book. I've never even read The Hobbit.
I like how they bring up the lore just so they can ignore it.
Wow. Elrond isn't angry about a mixed-race relationship he's worried about Arwen. He knows that eventually Aragorn is going to die and Arwen is also going to die from depression.
exactly, he's half elf himself for fucks sake
+Gamerfreak 786 No, Aragorn is decended from a half-elf. Sure, he lived to be 80 or so, but Arwen is actually immortal, so the result was the same.
+Josh Pautler I was referring to elrond
Ohhhh no you didnt just pull the race card on Lavender Brown?! It wasn't specified what race she was until the 5th book, by that time, the first movies had already been made and they just went with it until J.K. went all like "oh, btw. she was white all along"
Wait, Dan hasn't read the books? Weird.
So this video basically just admitted that slavery is something the "good guys" do, am I hearing them right?
"ok, so the Silmarillian 100% invalidates our argument and is as Cannon as it get, so we are just going to discard it and pretend it doesn't count so we can make an argument that instantly falls apart under any real cannon scrutiny" ~cracked
1) Sauron is the one who tortured and deformed elves into orcs, then enslaved them to do his bidding
2) Orcs eat each other and betray each other constantly for power
3) Sauron curropts the land with his gaze and has the orcs pillage it for resources which makes it shitty
4) The entire reason for war is so that Sauron can expand and become stronger, they arent trying to leave middle-earth
I could go on as many in the comments do, but seriously, i feel like after hours became lazy with their premises after the first 2 seasons...
Actually, Gondor is the region, Minas Tirith is the actual place attacked in ROTK
And Osgiliath
Among many, one of the key problems in this video is that they start out talking about why Sauron is actually good. And then they talk for the rest of the time about why orcs are innocent (they're wrong about that too, of course). They give very little evidence for why Sauron himself could possibly be good, which is what the title promised to do.
Zeke Gore because it's an impossible argument
I think the orcs are more of a question which is the same question that is asked in life. Is your morality, laws, and moral logic strong enough to stand the test of time against the true laws of the universe? And the answer is time and time again that the only real laws which cannot be broken are the laws of the universe. As a society we make laws to how we think everyone would like. But obviously, this is not the case as evidenced by Melkor existing.
Honestly this one seems like such a perfect analogy for why the current politically correct generation is making exactly incorrect moral assumptions and conclusions about the world at large. But that's just me.
no its not just you.
it takes a disturbing amount of ignorance of the source material and mental gymnastics to come to their conclusions.
The one ring actually enhances attributes. Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam all turned invisible because their races are naturally quiet.
I mean, Sauron was wearing it and nothing visibly happened to him.
+noobmaster117 That's one of the things I really don't like about Epic Medieval Fantasy. Why not augment their personal attributes? Why must the Ring work on RACIAL attributes?
I feel their make race too important in those stories, that's why they come off as racist.
Malcom Chase Because a merman can breath underwater and a griffon can fly. This is a difference in species here.
+noobmaster117 Yeah, pretty much. More precisely, the power of the ring is WILL. It happens to be Sauron's will, but still.
noobmaster117 It's not the same. Flying and breathing a different substance than air are big differences. It's not like Hobbits have limited chameleon-like abilities to change color and the Ring ramps it up to full blown invisibility.
Malcom Chase they have naturally padded feet, sensitive hearing, are small, and have a connection to the land.
If you watch My Little Pony, it's like how Earth Pony's are stronger and better at farming.
Nobody thinks twice that a Q is basically a god or that Time Lords all seem to be naturally gifted with technology. Sci-fi has just as many race specific attributes.
>Carefully avoiding the scene in return of the kings where all the orks of different breeds kill each other in the tower.
>Using the movies and only the movies for the argument.
>Call a fantasy world based on north european myths racist for not including people of other ethnicities
Cracked is running out of ideas.
I so love when they talk about things without thinking about the very basis of they argoument...
I pressed the dislike button twice, so I could dislike it again.
It would be Katie who goes off on a social justice rant about how orcs are just a oppressed racial/cultural minority, therefor the evil eye in the sky that wants to cover all of existence in dark shadowy death is the good guy because his army is made up of what Katie probably only sees as African Americans(After all, all the main characters in the movies are on a spectrum starting at pale as driven snow, to ever so slightly tan, which is a problem on its own).
The last few episodes have just been her going off on the other three about how everything is sexist/racist or just bad for women. If ever they brought up how a movie treats men like shit, her head would probably explode all over the nice people there to actually eat.
Agreed. I keep agreeing with Soren.
+TheWolfkiller01 wow talk about viewing everything through one lens. It's a perfectly valid interpretation of the books & films. The Elves are immortal creatures who think of themselves as superior to everyone, the Orcs are a people banished to a shitty place who (it could be interpreted) are just trying to find a better place to live.
In the Lord of the Rings, we are told Sauron is evil but we don't see him do much (apart from attack with his Orcs) but we do see some of the Elves & Humans preform some morally objectionable actions.
Personally I don't think there are any Good guys in Lord of The Rings, just varying levels of total douche.
It's an interesting interpretation, which is what After Hours is about, interpreted pop culture in different ways.
The elves are indeed shitty people who think everyone is shittier than they are. That's irrelevant. The orcs are objectively evil. They are not just a downtrodden folk down on their luck, trying to get to the beautiful land of LITERALLY everyone else. They are a brutal race who destroyed the land that they had with war, and now want to destroy everything else via the same, united under an evil mastermind who wants to, again, cover the world in shadowy death. If the Humans preform morally objectionable actions, than the Orcs preform morally bankrupt actions that are utterly unforgivable. Destroying whole cities. Murdering COUNTLESS people.
If they are simply trying to get to a better place, what is stopping a man who has gambled himself into poverty from just murdering the richest man alive and taking his place?
+phantomrachie Well, the Orcs didn't really seem to mind the darkness, since the light hurts them, and the fact that they kept destroying everything. And as for Sauron, he put his evil desire for domination etcetera into it so it could give him more power and, if found by another, would corrupt them too until it ended up with Sauron again. I love Sauron, but the idea of him being a good guy will never really work for me.
Silent Solitude I'm not saying there aren't holes but it is interesting interpretation Many of the After Hours theories have holes in them..
I also think the title is misleading, the conversation never goes into Sauron being a good guy, just that the Orcs may not be as objectively evil as people think.
For example people say that the fact that they are cannibals makes them objectively evil - however depending on the circumstances cannibalism is not necessarily evil, for example if you are stranded on a mountaintop with nothing to eat but the dead bodies of your fellow passengers.
It could be argued that because Orcs seem to lack the ability to farm (due to the land they live on and the fact that they are tortured insane elves) and because little else lives in Mordor, cannibalism is not morally wrong for them because they have no other food source.
Not something I would necessarily agree with but an interesting idea none the less.
Well said! I have been trying to tell my non-orc friends this for ages! I thank you arguing humans for shedding light on what makes my dark lord and master Sauron so wonderful! I would like to touch on a couple talking points you made though.
1. We do have a great, free healthcare system available in Mordor. It's capable of being free because most orcs just tend to die in battle, you save a great deal of gold when you don't have to pay for someone's medical bills.
2. We have excellent schools here too! Our military offers free college tuition for joining the military...obviously our whole nations is a military force, so free college for everyone. We have a healthy balance of patriotism, individuality, and comradery. Also, who else on middle earth had figured out gun powder or how to make crossbows?
3. Orcs are not really racist, we show animosity to everyone equally, it's all about individual merit if you want to be accepted or followed. With the exception of Halflings...hate those filthy things.
4. Sauron is actually a very good boss. He's a "Leads from the front" kind of master and that really speaks volumes about him. He let his forces fight first, let them get a confidence boost by winning it themselves, then and only then does he step in to help out when he realizes his followers are being taken down. What other king does that?
5. We make great strides to take care of our environment! We have numerous policies in place to try to preserve trees and whatnot. However, We are next to volcanos, meaning plants don't do well, also we get invaded and attacked by some new coalition every few years, we have to use it for weapons.
6. We adhere to Rules of War. When we take POWs we at least keep them alive. How many POWs did the elves murder? And yet we are considered the bad guys.
...well, that seems to be a few talking points. I think I should just make a video going more in depth...well then I guess it will be out by this weekend. Alright "Cracked" you have caught my attention.
Orc Reviews boi you need so many more likes this comment is a blessing 😂
The fact that Soren knows all this Lord of the Rings info only strengthens my ❤ for him
Their entire argument is predicated on the idea that people can't change, which is explicitly wrong. Immortality wouldn't change that. If TJ was still alive, there is literally zero reason to believe he would still hold any of the random bullshit ideas he had back in the day. Think about your own life for a moment. Do you still hold all of the same opinions you did 10 years ago? I used to be really for the 2ed amendment, and then Sandy Hook happened. That is just one aspect of my miserably short life. All immortality would do is mean it is the same people going though the changes of society rather than their descendants.
+darksean99 exactly!!! but that is not even the reason why they are spewing bullshit, that's because all their facts are wrong, and also because they didn't bother to look at the meta, tolkien had been accused of racism for the exact opposite reason of what they are saying here, because all the species were racial caricatures and the ones that had coincidences with the most marginalized were evil, so if what they are saying is true, then you are canceling out the racism with racism, it's just dumb, im so fucking sick of pc culture taking over otherwise good channels, they have a video that says air conditioners are sexist.
He literally help the equivalent of Satan try to destroy the world
I once really liked After Hours, but I get somewhat weary that it feels like it is mostly just every time just about sexism and racism these days. Look, the imortality issue was a great point, but it was immediately used in connection with sexism and racism too.
The reason the one ring is so important is because it amblifies the power of the user. So in the hands of a weak Hobbit or dwarf it grants invisibility but in the hands of a more powerful creature it would be incredibly powerful, that's why gandalf makes such a huge effort to never touch the ring, it would make him God like and it would corrupt him
I love it when we try to fit our own warped values into something that has good values, thus destroying it. Thank God its parody. Right?