SHOCKING CHEATING SCANDAL At GG Poker
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- Опубликовано: 27 апр 2024
- SUPERUSING ALLEGATIONS have rocked the poker world once again. We haven't seen a story like this since the Mike Postle saga, or even the Ultimate Bet poker cheating scandal from over a decade ago. This time it's happening at GG Poker, where one player has amassed in incredibly improbable winrate, playing extremely loose, winning tons of money, and with some extremely suspicious hand histories. Today we're taking a deep dive into exactly what's going on in this high stakes poker developing story.
Original thread about the GG alleged superuser: forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...
Read more about the UB/Absolute scandal: forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29... 
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Imagine the amount of hackers smart enough not to screw up their stats or make impossible calls
lmao i was thinking the same thing like why make these crazy hero calls? all it does is draw negative attention but the greed overtakes the mind i guess
Its probably that theres not always intersection between those with the hacking skills and decent enough understanding of poker. If you get into poker starting with the intent of cheating from the beginning, you'll be more interested in exploiting the vulnerability you find while you still can instead of actually learning what legitimately successful poker players look like. And as the other commenter mentioned, greed is no doubt a big factor too.
@tylermokarry9731 long con when cheating is hard... one update could essentially destroy you. You need to go in quick exploit then bail. Mike posted style cheating is the one where he was really stupid. He literally could have milked it for years before getting caught. Not to take any interviews, lose some win some, keep a low profile... but dudes ego was too big.
Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered.
Some people are just bad at poker and will play any hand and see the hand through or at least to the river. There’s also rich oilers who don’t care about money and will simply call to call, so you will always have users that do in fact make impossible calls possible because they’re either terrible or money means nothing to them.
« Double the size of our security team ». They will now be 2 security specialists at GG
Ah...I should have checked before I made my comment! Said the same thing.
Not true. They only had a half before. A 13 year old Russian Child who worked for chocolate bars. Now they have a 36 year old man to reply to the emails.
need higher rakes to support the security team
@@marksoutofzenfalse. The Russian child worked for Stolichnaya
If the me of the future is now in the past, how could you possibly know about it?
As always with these incidents, it’s not the cheater you should be concerned about. It is the fact they were only caught because they were stupid and greedy. How much clever undetected cheating is really going on…..we will never know.
The cheater was part of a white-hat hacking group. He wanted to 'get caught'.
We may never know the “number” but we also know it’s a big number
the only smart person in the comment section:
Alot! Ppl exploiting those poker websites years already. But they play smal ball and very very smart. They dont have big winnings, they dont have big leaps etc.
Actually they play for los from time to time, as every poker player experience lossess. They imitate normal player. Those kind will never be caught.
Poker has always been dominated by cheating. Live poker especially for over 100 years
GG only made this statement when the comnunity found this out and the case started to gain popularity. It's crazy that with their security team they can't detect these things by themselves.
On top there not paying back all the money just money collected from the dudes account
There probably in on it! Wink, wink!
gg wont tell us even they detected some shit😂
To be fair to them they may have wanted to alert other potential victims of this exploit so they could also update rather than publicising it widely straight away.
If the me of the future is now in the past, how could you possibly know about it?
I'm a coder and I'd really like to understand why the thumbs up/down feature would be the attack vector here. The software must be a complete POS.
Was thinking the same thing. Honestly I call bs and think it's more likely GG super using.
@@stephen3432 Anyone care to extol further on this? I know nothing about coding but way too much about poker. Thumbs up / Down being an " attack vector " is it basically like they built a car that pushing the cig lighter turns on the engine or something. Please don't tell me its that level of retarded.
Probably some amount of spaghetti code that only people who left the company 5+ years ago can navigate, possibly the Windows client emulating something that's not native to Windows, maybe some newbie who doesn't understand it's okay to ask for help when adding features for a game played by adults for money. Those are my guesses, doubt they're interested in giving a presentation on exactly how much of a clown fiesta their software development is. Actually, it's weird to me that they would go into as much detail as they did, I think the Adobe Air part is just someone going "hey this thing is some doggy doodoo and we should switch" to their manager but even that got included in a public statement somehow.
It’s laughable. The idea that they need to have “renowned security professionals” to _not send card information early_ is insane. Even a relatively novice programmer should be able to figure it out.
If the me of the future is now in the past, how could you possibly know about it?
The "losing" at heads up is just the cheater moving money to his other accounts. Those accounts also need to be banned.
Very strong possibility, and should be investigated further.
Good theory!
My thoughts exactly.
Not necessarily. If you really are cheating then you want them to see that you're losing from time to time.
He lost 90 bucks boys, move it on.
Don't worry, guys; the odds are with us that there was only one cheater.
Hahaha.
Hackers never divulge the entry path, and never recruit trusted accomplices. We are completely fine.
Coverage will inspire millions more. The system is flawed. Plenty of shady things happening on PokerStars as well. Most cheaters have a disciplined system that allows them to lose some of the profits in order to not be suspected of cheating.
@@MarkH10you almost sound like you know what you’re talking about
my ass. Sounds like a dumbass got access to an exploit that has been around for a while
Makes you think how many are out there superusing that are smart enough to stay within a reasonable winrate percentage.
Yeh the amount of dummies who rig things but don’t even understand the market/game they are playing
What's crazy to me is how blatant this example and the ultimatebet one in the past were. You could take somebody who is break even or a small winner at 25NL or 50NL and have them selectively superuser and they would crush and not look nearly as suspicious. I don't think this stuff is happening all the time but if we're relying on results and these crazy hands to catch this behavior you could definitely fly more under the radar.
You could but you can count on humans emotions like greed. Is the guy really folding to a bluff when he knows its a bluff just because his hand is suspicious? And he would need to do it everytime and not bluff etc. Which ye would make him fly more under the radar but if he then has a 30-40bb/100 winrate over like 30k hands it would still be statistical unreasonable at midstakes and people would notice it. Would just take a bit longer.
absolutely, just play your game and when the 3rd club hits the river and only a flush can beat you then take a peek, if he has the flush and you folded a straigt or a set it's just a great laydown
@@lexx9945 The problem is, if you randomize each hand to either cheat, or to play it normally, it would literally be impossible to tell when you're cheating and you would gain enough of an edge to be a winning player. I honestly don't see how you can see if someone is cheating using a randomization method.
In the long run they'll get caught. If there is a significant enough sample size. Correctly calling and folding to large river bets is going to get suspicious.
Imagine he just played his account normal and waited for like a huge 5k tournament or something and cheated to victory
I haven’t played online since black Friday and probably never will again.
Cheaters are like roaches, if you catch one there are 100 more out there.
This gives me no faith in the technical team at GG. Not only was the all-in equity data available client-side, which is pretty crazy, but the servers allowed out-of-date client software to continue accessing the games, which is also crazy. They also apparently didn't have any ability to spot 90BB/100 profit margins with low variance without the support of online forums. This is, by itself, enough for me to not play on GG.
I think getting out-of-date client software or cracked client software to still access the servers is relatively simple to achieve. You can always mask your client software and send the server what it wants to hear. You can make this really hard but it always is atleast theoretically possible to mask your client.
@@insomnia20422Yeah, I agree, although you can make it hard enough that you can't reasonably know what it wants to hear. Particularly with regular updates going on, having an "up-to-date" copy on another machine is only marginally useful if each new iteration is out-of-date within a few days, which it tends to be with poker server clients. I suspect they didn't make it very hard. However, as you say, in isolation this would be a lot less bad. With all three things simultaneously happening, I think it becomes very hard to defend.
Not surprised. GG is not a platform to be trusted for various reasons such as their TOS and how they handle cheating allegations. I wish I stopped playing on the platform before I learned the hard way.
These guys are crooks and have no business trying to make poker "more like a video game". They incentivize bad action through various means and treat winning players poorly. In their own words "we don't want winning players on this platform". It's an absolute joke. I can rant for hours about the unethical, sketchy and borderline illegal things they do.
Report them to the gaming commission NOW.
Agreed
Who would you recommend? I've just been on trust pilot reading reviews for all the main different sites and obvs you get some salty people from bad beats etc or just overall bad players but there are some comments from players that have clearly had some questionable experiences. Don't know who to trust at this point, gonna get into live playing now I reckon 👍
@mistertwist PokerStars seems to be the only platform worth touching in my opinion.
Question, if it’s online poker against other people, then there obviously has to be winning players…. How would they go about having only losing players?
I can see that they seem shady though, like how they confiscated the cheaters winnings, but didn’t continue on by stating they then refunded the players the cheater stole from, so they probably just kept the money for themselves.
How do sites like this even make their money? Is it all ads? Do they run large tournaments with buy ins and make millions off of a few thousand people and pay out 1/10th of the revenue to the top players in said tournament?
Like if you go onto the site I’m assuming you can just put in money and go to a random table and sit down and play against other users money, how do they make money off of those tables?
@@danielandree3947 they have rake obviously, how does every poker site make money? GG has some pretty high rake, im sure they are making lots between cash and tournaments.
Im still re-running through all the old videos from 7 years ago. Your evolution and growth are incredible. Thanks for all the content and staying true to the players for so many years.
Found Doug’s RUclips burner
Whats crazy is that these cheaters are all so obvious and if they were just a little smarter, they'd get away with it if they stop calling with 10 high.
Or at least use the whole cards to analyze the players play(behavior) and study their tendencies.
Well the ones getting caught are obvious.
Jack high you mean… (J4 lol)
You better bet they do. You only get to see the dumb ones
I know right talking about not playing the game 😂😂 crazy how stupid can u be
HTF does their security not automatically flag an account with 84bb winrate???????????????
What fucken security?
You answered your own question
@@RealPatrickBateman- Yes, I did
@@fevolenko3995Because they are probably in to it, like all the other Poker softwares they make tons of money with this method.
I accused them of this years ago with proof and they banned my account the next day
what? proof? thats crazy
Can you elaborate please?
Next time go to the community first, get some more people to independently confirm your findings.
Same happened to me at 888. @TheWiryWoodchuck They were supposed to send all my requested Hand Histories.. The file sent via email 'could not be opened' the "temporary restriction" on my account turned into a "permanent ban" without any explanation. They removed live chat - the only other way of contacting them was through their online help link which funnily enough read 'Page no longer exists'.
If the me of the future is now in the past, how could you possibly know about it?
Doug.. Just to correct you on the Potripper thing.. I know it was a long time ago.. But the reason the entire thing kicked off was because a player requested the hand history because he wanted to review his play.
He was given full hand history that showed EVERY PLAYERS cards in the history report.. something that should not be possible. So this caused a major deal and everyone started looking at the stats and now knowing all hands could be seen it meant a super user account is possible.
I still can't believe people continue to play online scam poker and then accuse people of cheating when its the poker site itself that is scamming you out of your money. You think its just coincidence that you have a monster hand and your opponent manages to draw the 1 outter he needed to win after both of you shoved all in to cap out that rake? The data is out there for everyone to see but nobody bothers to look at it and say something. The playing more hands is just a scapegoat players use to lie to themselves that the game is legitimate. I've been playing poker for money since 1998, both online and at the casino, and roughly about the same amount of hands at each (never liked multi-tabling online). When it came to online play, I saw 100x more monster hands vs draws than I ever did on the felt. For example, I have only seen 2 royals at my table at the casino in 25+ years, meanwhile I have literally hit over 50 royals by myself online in half that amount of time, while sticking to just 1 table. So the whole "you play more hands online" comment people love to use to defend online poker is complete dog shit.
Damn how much money did you lose online?
Doug, your content is second to none. Constantly continuing to get better despite the fact that you’re already leading the field. Cheers to you, my friend 🍻
Pretty lazy on the hand break downs. Could have had some better graphics making it easier on the eyes when showing the hands. Not just screen shots.
It blows my mind that any network traffic would not be encrypted.
Sounds like he was hooking client side function calls and able to mimic calls from the client, in which case encryption isn't the issue.
He was a wizard, got it
@@gazorpazorp9798 sure, blame the wizards
@@2011blueman This could have all been avoided though if there was a server/client check, check if the sum of the client matches that of the server, I can't believe this wasn't in place already, it's literally in place for Quake2 clients back in the day, you got kicked automatically from the server because the version of your Q2 client isn't allowed due to its vulnerability, this should almost be the FIRST Thing you ensure for a system like this that handles not Game frags! but some serious MONEY
I seriously doubt it is a client hack @@67steinip
Thanks Doug, you have definitely helped me with my decision to not continue playing poker anywhere, even at the big casinos. You’re killing it buddy, really.
you should try slots it's literally a cash cow
May I recommend the lodge!
@@DougPolkPoker if u donate 2k to build my bankroll heads up 20$ sng . i may come in future
is Robi and Postle playing there?@@DougPolkPoker
Its a fair point as Casinos are built on charity@@donut5143
This makes me question every dubious call someone has made against me on GG in the past. It is realistically unlikely that this person either was the first or even acted alone. I think they’re just the one who got caught by not being clever with their exploits (hello Robbi). It’s sad that it’s not been a level playing field and has tarnished GG for me.
💯% true
Thanks for the video, good to raise awareness about this. So how can one see all the hand histories of a specific player? Is this information online from everyone that plays on GG or how does that work?
They used to sell hand histories. I don't know if they still do, but that's what I would guess.
Cheating online is very rampant. Just go look at how prevalent it is with online video gaming. It’s an entire industry selling cheat software. Anyone who thinks it won’t be done with actual money involved is about as naive as it gets.
Sad thing is anyone with even slightly a bit of strategy not to get caught won’t.
it’s much more preventable in something like poker than in your usual video game. Sure, preventing AI or computer play is massively difficult, but keeping the cards secret should be very easy for an experienced team.
@@YT7mc it’s exponentially more prevalent in video games than poker. For $10 people can cheat in a video game and not be charged with stealing actual money. The ramifications are far less severe. Just look at the past year of all the cheaters being exposed in online chess tournaments for money. Yes they exist but you won’t see thousands banned every day for cheating at poker like you do in video games.
I deposited, played one tourney at GG, asked one question from customer service, don't get a reply. Withdrew all my money. Sketchy company, no customer service.
your loss. the games are so soft its hard to not make money there
How is this information useful to anyone if you don't say what your question was? I can't think of infinity questions where not replying is totally appropriate.
@@meepk633All online pokerstar softwares are RIGGED they are in to it themselfs robbing us of our money and making tons of it
I’ve seen a few people ask about how the “thumbs up and down feature” could have been used in this exploit. My interpretation on this is as follows:
When you win a hand on GG, you’re given three predetermined “emoticons” which signal you’ve won. If you fold a hand, you get some neutral ones and when you lose, you get some negative ones and the ability to congratulate the opponent. I’m guessing if the equity calculator is being determined before show-down, the emoticons that you will have available in any hand is also pre-determined; I.e either neutral (if you fold) plus one of either positive or negative and never both (since they are the two outcomes available in each hand).
If you knew you have neutral or positive as your only options against another player, then I’m guessing you could just run crazy plays.
why would this be available to the player before the hand is actually lost or won, the server has to send it with the result not before it...
A beautiful Robbi J4 cutaway montage. Excellent work! Well done!
Thanks Doug for spotlighting this. I've stopped playing online for a while now for a few reasons. I think I'll stick to getting cheated at the brick and mortar rooms. 😁
So he couldnt see the cards, but it would tell him he was a 79% favorite or whatever? Basically just as good or better than seeing the cards.
That actually make sense in technical point of...
THE ROBBI PART HAD ME DEADDD. PURE BLUFF CATCHER LMAO
Robbie played at the lodge, so it's just National Inquirer nonsense.
that doesnt mean he doesnt think she cheated... he just knows she can't cheat at the lodge@@MrAgmoore
yes. LOL i was loving the way doug put this together lol
Happy Holidays Doug. Interesting story. Thank you.
Interesting video. I have had my theories about ACR and either bots or certain players have access to what most likely is seeded hands, which are then decoded by the player and used exploitatively to know the flop turn river. Or maybe they just have a hud that sees my cards. Geez
That said, some sites are best avoided, and as a good player, regardless, you avoid some players and move to better tables if you're losing to someone continuously.
ACR has such a bad reputation. I wouldn't give them a dime.
Loved the “Robbie” hypothesis scenario. Too funny!
Wow haven’t watched yet but been on 2+2 relaying to my suspicion of unscrupulous play on GG for over a year now, along with reporting to GG customer service and getting Jack shit in response. Thank you Doug. And I’ve been playing since the original poker boom and it hasn’t felt this bad.
I love that the vulnerability was exploited by way of a completely useless feature. If only they spent more money on protecting players than they do trying to develop absolute garbage software.
I was a UB member and got burned by cheating. I quit GG when ridiculous things happened. Unless software is regulated and audited, even then I don't trust it.
Live games with table cams, RFID, players using cell phones, it's all B.S. and just adds to the problem. Spending my time now with honest people.
Video games have been dealing with this same problem for over 20 years. In some sense, video games have it even worse - game clients *need* to have access to information that should remain private to the individual players. For example, other player location is important so the client can track them and smooth movement with predictive movement interpolation. Of course, because the client has the data, that's how 'wall hacks' and other similar vulnerabilities are able to be created.
In the case of GG, the answer seems pretty clear - the clients should NEVER be able to access data that doesn't either directly belong to the client (like their own hole cards), or, is public information, like the runout of the board.
This might have a massive impact on all online poker sites.
At what point in the design was sending equity data to the client considered a good option?
The client needs to know about seven cards.
If it wants to calculate probable equity from there then that’s fine, but the client should only ever know about seven cards, stack sizes, and bets (from which it can calculate the pot), and the pot (double check).
I thought we were done and over with these types of exploits more than 15 years ago! Also, GG's explanation post really makes it sound like the Windows client-side application is actually an emulator of a non-native platform to Windows, which is very concerning if that is so!
Also, this makes me wonder a lot about a lot of the "crushers" on GG, and how I'll often see very poor playstyles from MTT players who are boasting six-figure career winnings on the website. In contrast, most Pokerstars/Party/888 players with six-figure career winnings on those websites are some of the best MTT players in the world.
You won't find many winning players on GG. Even the top pros are break even at best! This is because the RNG is not random. GG use an algorithm and its affecting everyone's stats. You won't find half as many top profitable grinders at GG than you do find at say stars and pp.
I think you mean 7-8 figure
@@user-pw6lm1wu5t just curious what you're insinuating? that they make sure everyone has some wins and losses? like they use an algorithm to switch up your luck?
It is called "Player enhancement Software."
@@user-pw6lm1wu5tto be fair, it’s impossible for a computer to emulate pure random, but yes some programs have better “randomization” algorithms than others
Always got bad vibes about these platforms being exploitable by hackers.
There's nothing shocking about this. Online poker has always been infested with cheating and it's impossible to stop it.
it is definitely impossible to stop some things with current technology. I could certainly multi-account on any platform in the world right now without any fancy gear. But client side hacks are pretty rare.
In this case it is interesting because it's a QoL feature. Something that probably didn't get as much QA as a core feature. The things from that forum post are legit callouts though. AI can probably tell them who is cheating with a pretty high degree of certainty, and they aren't even doing the poor mans version of that by just looking at easy to acquire analytics around VPiP and win frequency.
However, an ignorant statement about THEY'LL ALWAYS CHEAT is no more valuable than burying your head and assuming it never happens.
If GG is smart they'll start a watchdog foundation to audit their practices and get to some of the improvements and compliance that would make you confident at least from a technical perspective there wasn't any cheating going on.
That's why I hit and run 😂😂😂 switch tables minimum buy fu k it
I don't even play online poker but I do play online video games and I agree, it's impossible to stop it.
Absolutely don’t get fooled and play online never ending cheating
@pinkdink1210 I'm just curious . Why would anyone cheat on video games?
Another great video Doug!!
'It was a pure bluff catacher' ...killed me.
The reason you don’t publicly talk about an exploit until it’s patched and you’ve recouped as many of the illicit gains as you can is not to postpone the bad press. It is to A) not give the offender a chance to stash assets/ flee and more importantly B) not give other hackers an opportunity to take advantage of the same exploit while you are still vulnerable
Which is NEVER if you don't get called out publicly.
"POOR PLAY" transitions into something totally different once someone is a super user. They just don't get it, and give away that they are acting super strange.
This is where AI is going to ruin online poker. AI will mitigate its' wins and defer to some seemingly common sense moves like folding the KNOWN winner (to the SU) of pocket deuces against a jam with 5 overs, possible pocket pair, and a flush available. As a super user this is a detection spot. Call = detected cheating, FOLD = preserve the cheat. AI will add that fold the winner component, and simply be a 54%-59% winner and stay down the board from the top winner in order to continue making money. Making 3% a month on a million dollar bankroll for 200 months and net $6m is what AI will do, while this dolt made 40% for 3-4 months, and the complaints probably started 8-9 days into the account.
Yeah, it's hard to play it chill and literally fold money when it's staring you in the face just to win at an under-the-radar rate. This guy didn't have the self-control or patience for it. Leave an AI bot playing you just into the black while you go off and watch some pirated movies or whatever and you can make a comfortable living. Scary stuff.
Then there just won't be online poker. Good
this is so comforting: What I'm really concerned about are more sophisticated cheaters remaining inconspicuous by having realistic winrates and styles of play.
just making slight adjustments here and there so you will never catch on to what they are doing.
Why was this vulnerability possible post-December 16th? Shouldn't GG Poker's servers detect for the most recent version and not allow non-current users? If there's a check for current version, you can't make it the same check each time. That doesn't make sense.
If you never close the app you can leave it open for weeks at a time and not be forced to do the updates
The way a white hat hacker group works is they participate in bounty programs where companies pay anyone who can uncover an exploit in their codebase. Alternatively, they might hack a company, show them proof that they were hacked, and then ask for payment to reveal the exploit they found.
North Koreas biggest income is their hacker network, run by Chinese and Russian experts.
Looks like GG didn't pay enough then, cause otherwise they wouldn't have created that 'MoneyTaker69' account. 😂
Every time poker scandals fall to the wind, Doug comes out of nowhere to bring it all back. Never change Doug, please never change.
Doug picks it up after it was already big news. He just has a big audience which makes it great to spread the news further.
@@fhd3715💯% right
Lmao, the same guy that supports cardroom and Justin Kelly, who works the same guy, investigated Mike's postle cheating, that is Justin Kellys man right in a video of Joeys there like Joey supports also same room that steals money from players they stick together and polk should look at him self using a program to use cuz he's weak and needs a crutch heads up against kid poker I got nothing to gain with this truth but every thing to possibly lose but I don't care anymore to me I have nothing to lose I haven't for years
u ok?
@@POKERMIKE-1624
Sounds like you lost much more than you should...😂
"Wasn't able to access servers or server data" ... "Was able to deduce all-in equity". Apparently all-in equity isn't server data to these guys🤔
When your thumbs up button leaks server data though... top tier programming
Top 3 Postle quotes of all time
“I played so much online poker that I developed a blood clot the length of my entire leg”
“I crushed the best online players such as Tom Dwan. Just ask him”
“I’m one of the best poker players in the world and I’m no longer afraid to say it”
Crotch theory optimal is hard to beat.
What’s even funnier is that out of everything he said, no one has proven a single fabrication. On top of that, every data point against him has been proven to be fabricated. Makes ya wonder who was telling the truth and who wasn’t.
No way its not an inside job. If not the software fucking sux! What a shitshow! GG for GG
Yea, the way I always heard it the software is encrypted and you it doesn't reveal the hole cards until the hand is over.
Absolute Bet had an account the software engineers could see the whole cards and one of the owners took advantage of it. I guess most people that worked there didn't know it even existed.
Then Russ Hamilton asked for something similar, he claimed he was trying to catch a cheat. He used it to cheat himself.
Yep all Poker softwares are 100% RIGGED and they robbing us and make tons of money! but a lot of people are starting to see trough them bullshit scammers
The lads a genius. GG shouldnt ban him, they should offer him a job.
They said they doubled their security team, so perhaps they did! 😅
Yes, they had one guy doing security and now there are two.@@acesbros2966
Nah, team was 0, you do the math ;)
I like how you specifically went into the key oddities e.g. the hacker is playing over 50% of hands,not three betting and still winning. This is madness on a few levels because if someone tried to play this way they would shatter their bankroll in minutes UNLESS they could see their opponents hand.
If I understood correctly, he could only see the equities, not the hole cards . Is this correct ?
Remember the movie “Catch me if you can” ? GG should hire this dude to help them build a fire wall against other hackers
This is not a super-user situation. This was a client-side hack.
Super user doesn’t have to be that
There is no such thing as a "client side hack".
Data like this should not reach the client in the first place. The server should NEVER send the data about cards you can not see.
This means that anyone could write a script to get this data even if the client is patched. This is very bad and insecure design, and until they make significant changes these hacks will continue.
Yeah super user means they full access through admin.
@@gregjames4848 yeah truely shocking that any of this info reaches the client before showdown. I just can't believe it
@@gregjames4848According to GG’s statement, hole cards are not sent to clients. Hacker did extract with prob data from the packets. As part of ALL-IN, GG offers insurance to +EV player. Even if Hacker wasn’t able to access EV%, but can see insurance yes/no. If insurance is offered, comfortably call off. If OP is not offered insurance, Hacker can comfortably bluff turn.
Hacker got greedy / nervous, wanted to maximize profit before the bug is fixed. He knows a positive winning streak at high stake would attract eyes.
I have my doubts it was the first. This is probably just the person who got greedy and stood out.
In all honesty though this should be a warning to people that poker sites likely aren't as secure as they would have us believe. You have to wonder what else is flying under the radar, especially with sophisticated AI becoming more prominent. Its going to take these sites a lot of money to keep up with it.
Well if we paid more rake the sites would have more money 😤 evidently more rake is better
@@Psiber_SynDaniel is that you?
Doug being sure to be very nice to the hacker group lol. “They probably nice enough people, don’t take my RUclips channel please!”
I always love corporate company lines because they always sound so soulless. Like what they wrote went through four drafts before it was approved by the legal department, they take no real responsibility and we're supposed to take them at their word that it won't happen again. When the community is able to out these scandals before they do doesn't help matter any.
It reminds you that huge companies always act in a reactive vs proactive state.
'Yeah the working conditions were unsafe and everybody from managers to entry level employees knew it, complaints and concerns were filed ... but Bob had to die first ... but we're sorry and we've fixed the situation now.'
Oh ok.
When there is $ involved, there will always be someone trying to get an advantage by cheating.
Yeah that someone is always the operation itself
The couple times there has been a super-user caught, it has been the done by the worst poker players ever... playing in the most super-user way possible. A knowledgeable poker player would arouse no suspicion at all in their game play, and could still crush the game for millions over time.
When the AP superuser was caught, he won a tourny where he saw the flop in his first 57 hands, only folding preflop on his 58th as it was raised preflop by AA.
So maybe its just the sloppy ones getting caught. Who knows how many arent.
Exactly lol. This comment made me seriously question do I ever play online again. You gotta wonder how many people are getting away with it. Yikes
@@thudymatI haven’t played online in years. The action flops drive me crazy. You make the correct play and get punished for it.😂
@@yankees29💯🔥👊🏻...rigged to the max...fuck online poker.
@@faulrevere8938 exactly man. I played on Party Poker and Ultimate for years. So obvious something was off from the get go.
So the all-in equity data was sent to the client before they even went all-in ?
That's crazy..
This feels like there’d be similar concerns to chess. If a person plays like an absolute maniac, they’d be easy to catch, but if someone just decides to play the top 10-20% of hands, and simply made good folds, they’d be able to make an ungodly amount of money and never get caught.
I'm willing to bet if I played a tournament the way I do now, and got God mode 5 times. I'd probably win 90% of the tournaments.
I dont get playing 50% of the hands and basically I've got to win every hand I'm in.
Seems like Daniel Negreanu always somehow seems to just happen to be one of the top supporters of these sites that run into these kinds of issues 🤔
Well you should know what the mafia did with vegas... i doubt they slept on the multi billion dollar industry of poker
Why would the all-in equity odds percentage be broadcast to the client side prior to the hand reveal any way? It would appear that this is intentionally written into the code. That's scary.
So GG just blocked this single thumbs up thumbs down access vector to that information but didn't remove the that part of the code that sends the all-in equity to begin with. So to me, they didn't really fix the actual issue.
Always love the humor which you add on b/w your vids.. haha.. :D Love from India!
Well that is definitely happening at ACR, the sketchiness there is through the roof
But anytime you mention shady shit happening on Reddit or twoplustwo you will just get bombarded by poker hardos who say it's impossible to rig online poker and they have too much to lose to ever let it happen.
Their explanation makes little sense. The game servers were sending real time all-in equity to connected clients (which should obviously never happen until cards are up) and they 'hot fixed' this by patching the client software? In other words, they discovered a superuser exploit, and rather than actually fixing it by patching what data the server is willing to send the client, they left it wide open but presumably just more difficult to discover. Bizarre
Just when I thought about trying online poker again after a hiatus from the Full Tilt scam
You been thinking for damn long about going back to online then!
hiatus...he says 😂
Great breakdown as always
Hope you do a follow up doug theres new info coming out that all the way up to 500nl atleast of players having massive unobtainable winrates with crazy stats. This is just the tip of the iceberg. ex #1 player on 50nl leaderboard has a 220bb/100 winrate
I live in CR, I used to work for most of on line poker sites... Only one of them was ok with having in-house super-users...another was caught like Doug said, 15 years ago.
I wonder if GG is doing the same on a big scale, like people working from Home in UK or RUSSIA, Croatia, Montenegro..etc...this could be anywhere with a VPN, but broooo what the actual fuck, this could be bots programmed to be super-users.
💯
The amount of times you feel cheated on online poker is ridiculous people calling all in with nothing an hitting with 1 card to go all the time
that really is the nature of the game, amigo. it took me awhile to accept it also.
remember that you're doing well if you consistently get your money in good. continue to work on the strong points and weak points of your game and the results will show up for you in the long run.
Doug, I was disappointed and surprised to see no video breaking down Garrets return to the table. Would be cool to see his hand Vs Patrick broken down.
If you’re a serious poker player and want to protect your money. NEVER PLAY ONLINE FOR LARGE STAKES. Play online for fun and to stay sharp at lower stakes, and only play large LIVE. WAY TOO MUCH INCENTIVE FOR YOU TO GET CHEATED PERIOD
Amazing how they'll only refund affected players the confiscated amount. Obviously players out sooo much more. Company needs to lose money on this deal and should be sued by anyone who played against MoneyTaker. Companies love to make these mistakes and wash their hands with zero net loss.
I’ve played with Money taker avoided him at all costs would shove the river on me 100% of the time
MoneyTaker was a white-hat hacker, basically he was the good guy. But there are probably hundreds if not thousands of other black-hat hackers that probably stole at least millions of dollars.
Shocking that the sketchy Chinese site was vulnerable.
Thanks for the shout out to my 2+2 post!
You have to assume people are running farms of cheating players, trying to stay under the radar, accumulating gains, tilting all the games against clean players. V depressing
The T9cc call reminds me of Robbi's J high call on HCL, but given she has her defenders and no cheating was ever found (how hard anyone looked is anyone's guess), I would not exactly call it "obvious cheating". (although you will never convince me that cheating did not occur)
Lol Garrett bluff shoved with 8 high and got called, you can't accuse someone of cheating when you bluff shove with garbage and get called.....
@@RoCkShaDoWWaLkEr It was a straight flush draw. I would hardly call that a bluff shove.
@@RoCkShaDoWWaLkEr "You cannot accuse someone of cheating when they win a hand against you". Cannot make this up.
It was a bluff because he had absolutely nothing ;but 8 high and a a draw, straight flushes hardly ever come in, jamming with a straight flush draw isn't something an actual poker player would do. He tried to bully her out of the hand while holding garbage and got called. To then accuse someone of cheating is only something a crybaby bully like G would do.@@chrisw.6060
@@RoCkShaDoWWaLkEr you realize that given the board and her hand that she can only beat 8 high..... you know this right?
Money taker thought the 2 was a 6. There really isn't a story here
The win rate tracking software should be able to recognize graphs like you showed & periodically red flag players for site administrators to review by default.
On the PotRipper graph, I always thought it was interesting the player at 23VPIP losing at 350bb/hr? That has to be embezzlement, right?
Rad has been a mess with cheaters (colluders) lately. It takes a bunch of us regular users investigating and reporting to get them banned. Still ends up with a lot of players getting screwed over. We're talking about it in chat daily. - Also, when I have some time I need to investigate a potential vulnerability. Rad doesn't seem proactive about such things (or much at all).
Is that the site HCL were/are trying to promote?
@@johnnyhunter - They were. Now they wont even acknowledge it exists if you mention it in chat
I got cheated by him and GG gave me the 100bbs back. Anyway, we get robbed by GG themselves because of the abusive rake so no surprise at all 🤣
I was just thinking about the Garret Robi hand while watching the video and Doug literally edited in right as I was thinking about it LOL, kinda funny to me
The client should NEVER have private access to anything but personal hole cards!!
I guess that's how they managed to develop so many interactive features in little time. They just didn't give a f**k about security and allowed client access to restricted information. This is a disgraceful way to save time and money on software development. They shouldn't rely on clients not getting hacked.
Since they chose this shady business practice then there must be many other possible ways to get restricted information.
So shady 🤦♂️
I'm surprised that they admitted that to fix the issue a client side change was required. I don't know how someone can be that stupid but at the same time create software that functions at all. Also, as brilliant as Doug is, I'm surprised that this wasn't a red flag to him, even if he has never done any programming.
You think these companies don't have ghost players in there taking people's money?
Of course they do
Good video as always Vanessa!
Love the subtle shade on the jack high lol
It really blows my mind that this could be happening for years.. imo they should immediately stop all games and cash outs to make full investigation to find out all cheaters who interrupted their data to make refunds, also i quess it would lead to GG bankrupcy so it will never happen
Luv watching this channel ❤️
This is rampant and the reason I stopped playing years ago. These ‘cheaters’ are actually the poker sites themselves. The crazy hands you’ve shown here I have seen hundreds of times - from micro stakes to higher stakes. And the ‘cheaters’ are always Brits or Russians.
The sites make too much money out of rake to rig games, esp in micro stakes lol. Like, its non-sense. Now, an individual working at the company cheating, that could and very well prob does happen. "Crazy hands" happen in real life too.
Wow. It's a basic rule that the network traffic must never contain any additional data to that which is to be immediately displayed. Easier said than done with some software architectures, but still. I've requested a withdrawal of my money now just in case there's a run that they can't handle. Just like when Absolute / Ultimate went under.
the J high call bit got me good😂😂
A big thumbs up for using the phrase "raises the question" instead of "begs the question" as is so often done these days
That begs the question: what's wrong with the phrase "this begs the question"?
If you play online poker youre doomed to be cheated
Lmao @ the Robbi reference. Bluff catching against a straight flush draw 😂
DAMN! The Garrett analogy had me rolling hahaha xD