Canada's Small Airplane Problem
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 1 янв 2022
- Turboprop airliners are incredibly common throughout Canada since they're needed to serve remote communities - but how might they be causing some issues for certain Canadian airlines?
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Become a Channel Member:
/ @alexpraglowskiaviation
Website: www.alexpraglowski.ca
Instagram: / alexpraglowskiaviation
Twitter: / alexpraglowski
Facebook: / alexpaviation
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
SOURCES
[1] Canadian Civil Aircraft Register
wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/...
[2] Beech 1900/Dash 8 Facts
rzjets.net/aircraft/?typeid=39
www.planespotters.net/product...
[3] Air Georgian CPA
nationalpost.com/news/regiona...
[4] Air Canada Cuts Service
aircanada.mediaroom.com/2020-...
flyjazz.mediaroom.com/2020-06-...
[5] Essential Air Service subsidy in the USA
www.transportation.gov/policy...
[6] Air Canada Finances
financialpost.com/transportat...
[7] Air Canada CPA Amendment March 2021
aircanada.mediaroom.com/2021-...
www.newswire.ca/news-releases...
www.aircanada.com/content/dam...
[8] Dash 8 Extended Service Program
chorusaviation.com/wp-content...
[9] CRJ vs Dash 8-300 Performance
www2.bombardier.com/Used_Airc...
www2.bombardier.com/Used_Airc...
[10] The Need for Connectivity
www.theglobeandmail.com/canad...
canadasairports.ca/wp-content...
theconversation.com/air-canad...
[11] PAL/AC Interline Agreement
news.paxeditions.com/news/air...
[12] Heart Aerospace ES-19
heartaerospace.com/
www.aerospace-technology.com/...
[13] Cessna SkyCourier
media.txtav.com/media_kits/22...
skiesmag.com/news/skycourier-...
[14] ATR 42
www.atr-aircraft.com/our-airc...
[15] Dornier Do328eco
www.deutscheaircraft.com/prod...
[16] The Hybrid-Electric Dash 8
dehavilland.com/en/news/posts...
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Outro song - "Take Flight" by Nyhtian: • Nyhtian - Take Flight ...
© Alex Praglowski Aviation 2022
This video is the property of Alex Praglowski Aviation and may not be used for any purpose without prior permission. Contact me at the email in the "About" section of my channel for usage.
As a dash 8 captain (at the moment) in the US, I love them. Pain in the butt to learn the systems due to overly complicated designs, but robust, safe, and cheaper to operate.
The Dash 8 doesn’t get enough praise.
What airline
The cuts highlight the need for some passenger rail routes to be reinstated to serve these communities. Many of these cut off communities either still have direct service or a nearby rail line being used for freight.
Calgary doesn’t even have passenger rail service. The state of affordable transport in this country is pathetic
@@techwiz81 various rail advocacy groups have been trying to get a Calgary to Edmonton route restored. As recent as five years ago, the Alberta government said there was no need for it. Obviously they don't drive on Highway 2 or they would say otherwise. Maybe all Albertans can do themselves a favour and get rid of Kenny next election and replace him with people who value rail transportation.
@@TrainMike2013 I'm sure they'll do that right after they realize that global warming is real and they need to transition their economy away from being completely dependant on oil, which is something that will probably happen after they figure out that equalization payments aren't actually a conspiracy to keep Alberta down and their provincial government is short of money because it collects less taxes, but before they they realize that pipeline opposition is not actually a conspiracy to keep Alberta down.
Seems like the flat terrain of central Canada would be ideal for rail travel, aside from the issue of speed/time. But with non-stop express trains between the larger cities, that drawback could be mitigated somewhat. It's probably not economically viable, but in an ideal world a rail service focused on the area between, say, Calgary and Winnipeg would be convenient for residents, and would free up airlines to better serve the more populous eastern part of the country.
@@hatuletohYou seem confused on what is lucrative and what are significant populations centres. Calgary and Wiinnipeg are larger population centres that are very lucrative for the aitlines, they wouldn't want passenger rail service between those cities. The remote places this vid is referring to is serving places like Whitehorse, Yellowknife, and Flin Flon, which are way out of the Calgary-Winnipeg corridor.
Now that you've brought it up, we definitely need a coast-to-coast journey on turboprops!
Don't do that to our 6'8" boy!
the Q400s are not survivable past 1 hour flight time - anything beyond that and it REALLY starts to drag out. The seats are super narrow, as is the pitch.
I supposed one COULD do it 1 hour at a time? Eg. YVR to Kamloops to YYC to Regina to Peg, to Thunderbay etc.
@@ghostrider-be9ek Oh I know the pain - living in various locations in western Canada I've logged a decent amount of time on them - but a twisted part of me still wants to see Alex do it. Haha
@@ghostrider-be9ek I had a Google flights itinerary come up for me one time for YQB-YYZ-YQR-YYC-YKA with all flights in Q400 except the YYZ-YQR leg. I was strongly considering booking that one, but I ended up flying out of YUL instead. :/
@Timothy Simpson My usual q400 flight is a grand total of 12 minutes between cycd and cyvr. I have done some linger ones betweeen yvr and pdx, and yul and yyg, and with that I think 2 hours is my limit. I have no desire to get to charlottetown bouncing my way in a Dash8
Now i'm really tempted to book an all-turboprop trip from the east coast to B.C.... Great video, liked!
omg yes please do it
Really good video. Flying across country
In a prop plane would be great
I like the fact that you can really see cool views from these flights they fly at a attitude thats perfect , not like the big airliners.
That’s actually a great idea!
A train ride across Canada would be better.
We call the Beechcraft the "flying gascan" for rural BC flights. If you sit in the back bench (yes, bench) and hold the walls, you can make the plane shake on the tarmac.
Yes! Many a time doing that in Powell River
I've flown a lot on the Q400 version of the Dash 8, and... I'd pick it any day over the CRJ or other commuter jets. Less cramped, more space in the overhead bins, and the active noise cancelling (the "Q" in "Q400") goes a long way to making it not that much louder than a jet.
But the engines of Q400 are still very loud during the climb. I like Q400 due to its sleek appearance.
The overhead bin space is good with the larger bins but some still rock the tiny ones. It’s personal item only on those.
I think Bombardier really made a mistake by stopping the production of the DHC-8-202 and DHC-8-311Q. These small aircraft are really essential for smaller communities and are a lifeline.
Likewise, Beechcraft made the same mistake by ending production of the 1900. Same with Saab with the Saab 340. I've travelled to Campbell River and Courtenay this summer with Pacific Coastal. These flights are a lifeline for these communities to the outside world and really can't see how Pacific Coastal can survive when these awesome aircraft reaches the end of their lives.
I don’t think your correct about this. Bombardier and Beechcraft didn’t stop production leaving a bunch of orders unfulfilled, they stopped because the demand got so low that the production rates were uneconomic. These companies build aircraft to make money not to serve a need.
As to how the airlines will survive when the current aircraft ware out in 10/15 years. I think prices will have to rise ( or subsidies will have to be funded and given) to move to the ATR for a lot of the flying. On the very very low volume routes it will be the Cessna and putting up with the discomfort and cancellations on very bad weather days.
In the states, airlines are dropping turboprops like red hot anvils. Either shoe horning in CRJ’s and ERJ’s, and forcing fields to accommodate, or drop the flights and have smaller carriers fly in Pilatus’ and Cessna Caravans. Now for the chicken and egg question. Do airlines really just not want these routes, and retire the only aircraft capable of flying them to therefore justify the cancellation, or is there a shortage of aircraft to fly them on a regular basis? If the latter, given the market, surprised there are so few aircraft in production capable of the market. Beechcraft, canceled the 1900 (still has the king air), Cessna still has the 208, usually holding nine, but can squeak in 13 (slightly smaller than the 1900), the Pilatus, holding nine. Saab has been out of production for twenty years, 1900 for now twenty years, Fairchild has been out of business for coming up on twenty years. The production has evaporated, either a large company has to get back into the small market, or, what I see as being more likely, though beech would argue the case, is a small aircraft company making a large aircraft.
@@ATH_Berkshire The largest floatplane company on the coast from Vancouver is in partnership with a Seattle engine maker to produce electric plane engines. They are in testing now to satisfy federal airplane safety concerns.
@@michaeldowson6988 In the Harbour Air E-Beaver media event, the pilot said he had to be really careful to make a slow liftoff for the attendees and cameras. There was so much thrust available he felt he could have rotated within 4 or 5 seconds of opening the "throttle".
Maybe the De Havilland Dash 8 is a bit bigger, but it serves smaller city's Like Grande Prairie, AB, Smithers, Fort St John, Prince George, B.C. quite well.
Another choice for 50-seater is Dash 8-Q400 Combi. Many remote communities may not have sufficient passenger demand for a 80-seat prop but the cargo/parcel demand is there. Q400 does have a combi version. Japan Airlines' subsidiary RAC has 5 Q400 Combis that it ordered directly from Bombardier. They have 50 seats only and have the 1/3 of the back cabin for cargo. This is a viable option to replace the 50-seat Dash 8-300 technically, keeping the passenger seat number the same but increasing cargo capacity.
I found the video to not be very informative about options.
More important than seating capacity is cost of operation and minimum profitable number of passengers. With or without using the a combi version, how do the costs of operating a Q400 compare to one of the earlier Dash 8 aircraft?
Bit of a rank amateur with aircraft and costs, but...
Just as a quick search I found a charter company (paramountbusinessjets) advertising 2500usd per hour for a 78 seat Q400 or 4550usd per hour for a 33 seat SAAB SF340.
Charging the same higher per passenger rate of 140usd per hour of the SAAB, the Q400 would break even with only 18 passengers flying at less than 25% of capacity.
So, why would an airline buy those other turboprops new even if they were available?
Can they land on short runways?
I like the Dash 8 turbo props. Flying from alberta to nova scotia, it was always my favorite part of the commute
Norway has a similar problem with most of their runways being short in northern towns, making anything but the STOL Dash 8 100s the only option to operate.
The only other replacement is to step down to the levels of King Airs and the like, but THAT wouldn't be well received though by the customers.
Yeah, will be interesting to see what Wideroe does to the aging fleet. There are some 30 year+ airframes flying. There have been life extention programs and newer airframes have been bought or leased, but they are still quite old. And these planes have a huge amount of cycles, as many of the trips they do is not more than 25-30 minutes. For some of the airports these are operate on, there are very strick requirements for the AC-type.
Maybe Norway should buy a plane factory
@@jdjdjdj29929292 At the moment it looks like another life extension program will be done on Widerøes DHC-8 100 series.
That would extend them from 120k to 160k sycles.
Getting parts is a problem already and I am afraid it will only get worse.
How straightforward would it be to extend those runways? Are they the length they are because that's alp the aircraft that operate from them need?
@@jackroutledge352 Most fo them are that short because they are in areas that are kind of hard to build airports in. Check out ENSD or ENHV for example, a lot of these spots have no other option than use a short runway if they want air service at all.
Really interesting. Phenomenal stuff as always. Yes over the past few years we have seen Jazz get rid of its smallest airplanes, and take on the E175. Hope to see the baby dash make a return someday.
Rip Jazz baby dash
Yep. I took an E175 today. I prefer the smaller Q-series props because they're fun. E175 is decent but sort of boring to fly on. Plus Embraer's E-Jets aren't the same size as the classic Dash 8's and their ERJ is out of production.
Why would the baby dash be resurrected?
This video ignores the most important aspect of aviation. Cost of operation.
How much less does it cost to operate smaller turboprop compared to larger ones?
@@EricLDunn Significantly less to operate actually. With a new, updated engine, it would be even more efficient.
I was a millwright that worked at remote community water treatment plants for 6 years, I've been in all of these turboprop aircraft. The atr felt like the side by side of the group and landing on a rough gravel strip was way less terrifying than the rest.
I have flown the 1900, the dash 8 classic, the A220, the a320 and the a330 and I have to say that the dash8 was the perfect balance between hand flying and a coffee machine! I miss that airplane!
Thanks Alex. A great look at the Canadian regional aircraft situation. Here in Australia we have similar issues with many small towns that can’t support regular air services. It will be interesting to see what the next generation of regional aircraft look like and their efficiency levels. Whether that is hybrid or electric ⚡️ it’s really time for some new tech.
It's actually pretty amazing that the USA has the Essential Air Service (EAS) law for small communities.
Alex, a couple years ago GE told Saab "we have a new engine ready to certify if you will build a new 34 seat prop". 34 seat planes will be a much needed segment in a decade.
Air New Zealand is keeping its fleet of 23 Q300's which were the last 23 built before Q300 production ended. The Q300's compliment the airline's fleet of 29 ATR72-600's. Like with Canada, the Q300 operates to regional airport's that have short runways.
ATR has developed the ATR42-600S which is designed for short land/take off to compliment the ATR42-600's and ATR72-600's
AIR NZ also once operated Beech 1900Ds and Saab 340s. A very similar fleet.
I have been on the Beech1900 from Hinton to Calgary in 2000. It was quite the experience especially with mild turbulence
They are the only ones on the Powell river - Vancouver Pacific Coastal route. It gets fun with the coastal weather. I know I’m strange but I quite enjoy the noisy bumpy ride even when it feels like the plane is sliding around.
Australia has the exact same problem. Qantas Link still used Dash 8-100/200/300's which are required to reach some remote towns. They will eventually need replacing. Same goes for REX who uses Saab 340's
Here in WA the F50 hasn't been used since 2016.
@@F50Aircraft yeah the Fokker 50s are only used on the Adelaide to Olympic dam route now.
@@jaydenc7167 yeah its sad I guess. They are a workhorse.
I remember watching these videos when I was a lot younger. Now I’m working at YYC and I absolutely love it. 14 year old me is very happy now. Love seeing all your amazing shots of YYC, really my second home now. Thank you for fueling my aviation gap.
One of your best videos Alex! easily explaining to every zuzus out there the complex reality of Canadian (regional) aviation. Great way to start another year :)
Thanks for the video, Alex, was really interesting.
Following the 737 MAX groundings a lot of Air Canada’s older planes which were slated for retirement in 2019 had to be kept in service and a result of that was the older Dash 8s on the East coast being sent to the West coast. At CYYJ the Jazz Rampies were in awe when a Dash 8 100 flew in from Vancouver as we were so used to the Q400s and on occasion the Dash 8 300s. When I gave the load sheet to the pilots the passenger cabin looked scarcely different than on the bigger models.
Great video Alex. Could you do a video regarding pilot pay in Canada? I’m sure many don’t realize how low it is and it would be great to raise awareness. Thank you! And keep up the great work :)
I saw a WestJet Pilots paycheck sitting on his desk and it was quite substantial.
I don't think you are going to find much sympathy at all.
Starting pay at Air Canada is around 65000. It is horrendously low considering it takes a new pilot 5 to 10 years to get in the right seat of an air canada airplane.
@@ts9271 You mean left seat?
Thanks for the info. It's always good to be well informed.
I love flying on the Dash-8s, they're one of my favourite aircraft out there today. Sure they're fairly bare bones and loud-ish, but you actually feel like you're flying and not on a literal air bus (pun sort of intended). They're also only used on short flights as you point out, so they're not bad for the quick hops.
taken many of these on my way to see family. land in st.johns, nfld and take a quick 30min hop to gander intl airport in a dash8. i loved the more 'visceral' feel that plane lol
Great video, always enjoyed these... they seem very light and stable.
The sound that comes from the Dash 8 300 on takeoff gives me goosebumps.
There's definately a market opportunity for a new turboprop in the 20-30 seat range. We have a similar issue in Australia. There's plenty of old Saabs, Metros, Dash 200/300s and the odd Beech getting around doing important regional/charter routes, but eventually they'll need replacing and there isn't really an aircraft available aside from the ATR-42, which is probably too big/expensive for a lot of operators.
Same issue in Iceland , Greenland, Norway , Sweden , Ireland , Scotland …
Pretty much anywhere with remote airstrips in need of service
The main problem with the ATR is while being capable of the runways it doesn’t have the range and speed of the Q200/Saab offerings
I never thought about Australia in terms inaccessible communities. I know it has distant communities at the end of long poor roads, but does it have communities that are hundreds of kilometres from nearest road/rail/ferry that is connected to the national road grid.
BTW, WorldTraveller003 mentions Iceland, Scotland and Ireland as having "remote" airstrips. I suspect the Canadians and Australians are laughing. Russians and Brazillians too if they are reading this. Completely different context.
I've flown on the Beech 19 and the Saab 340 several times and they weren't bad on the 45 minute good to MSP from the small airport (SUX) in Iowa that I had to fly out of. I couldn't imagine taking long flights in them, though, especially the Beech 19.
Never flown in a Beech 1900D but have sat in one & was impressed by the amount of room for each passenger. Have flown in a Dash 8-300 and ATR42 and thought the experience pretty much the same. The Dash 8-300 seemed to climb faster. But the nicest by far turboprop I have flown in was a nearly brand new ATR 72-600.
Thanks for the video. This helps explain why AC has permanently abandoned Kingston, ON (YGK).
Loved the Dash-8 since it’s introduction, but only got to fly on one for the first time just a few years ago from YHZ to YUL. Fairly comfy, but it was loud, even in the very front seats. Been spoiled by the jets!
Loved the insights. Thanks!
I live in Alberta and have flown edmonton/calgary route dozens of times. Almost always on a Dash 8, they basically have a flight going on one every hour. They are actually solid planes, not too loud, very comfortable. I don't notice much of a difference between them and an older 737 700.
I was a flight attendant for PAL Airlines, got real excited when I saw GPAU in this video 😄 PAL has been buying tons of Q400s in the prior year and has plans to buy even more !
I love the Dash 8 and the ATR, they used the dash 8 before all the time for Trinidad to Tobago flights, the dash 8 was the only plane I’ve ever been on that had a engine failure, it was surging so the pilot shut it down.
The Dash 8 is a beautiful smaller airplane. I have taken it many times, and it's fairly comfortable for short trips.
This is an interesting and informative clip, Alex...Merci. It’s certainly food for thought regarding fleet renewal in Canada’s smaller carriers...à suivre, eh?
Aslaskaair used to fly dozens of Dash series out of SeaTac, under the Horizon name, to regional airports. Not so so much these days. Time was, you could go from Seattle to Bend Oregon for $120 round trip.
To note, most classic Dash 8s flying in Canada are serial 400 and below. Meaning they rolled out of production in the 1990's.
Most of the beechcrafts shown were 1900-d except the pacific coastal that was parked at YVR south terminal. PASCO only has one 1900-d the rest being 1900 and Saab 340’s with a couple Grumman Goose (geese?) for charter purposes.
You can tell the difference between the 1900 and the 1900-d is the headroom. If it looks more like a guppy than being flat from the wind shield then it’s a 1900-d
There’s a somewhat similar problem in the Caribbean, however the newer ATR variants have seemed to fill the market quite well since older planes were retired. Still tons of old planes operating here tho, Cayman Airways operates 2 20+ year old Saab 340s and two 40+ year old Twin Otters still.
Silver Airways tends to use twin engine turboprops like the Swedish built Saab 340 for example which they operated until 2019 except in Caribbean portion of the airline’s system and they now operate both ATR 72-600 and ATR 42-600 as the mainstay of their fleet.
I think that mentioned Dornier option could be a good fit. And ATRs are becoming more popular, so I imagine mx costs are lowering. Also the IL-114-300 could be really good, if it weren't for sanctions. And scaling up a bit, Embraer's upcoming turboprop could be a good replacement for the bigger Dash 8s.
Nice video, Alex!
Great video as usual Alex. I see you left out the DO328 that CMA operate. Also Pascan still operate J31s.
Love the Dashes. Grew up flying on the classic 4 bladed -100/200/300s. God, will I ever miss them.
Thankfully the -300's are still quite common
Airinuit has a couple
I believe Air Canada (Jazz) parted with their last CRJ 100's quite a few years ago. They still operate 200's and 900's. The 705's were all type converted to 900's.
Now you got me thinking about doing a sector run
Thank You. Very Informative.
Excellent piece of analysis and shots of interesting aircraft
Living in Kelowna and growing up between Vancouver and here I’ve been on so many turboprops and I love them. It makes me sad every time I have to go on a proper jet.
The DASH 8-300 is currently used by the Norwegian airline Wideroe as well and not sure what they are gonna do once their service life ends.
And we have many smaller airfields which suits the Dash-8 300 but anything bigger and we got a problem.
Widerøe of Norway had to develop an Extended Service Program in cooperation with Bombardier for their Dash 8-100/200 fleet as there was no viable options at the time. they did this back in 2015.
I flew Dash-8 300's for Atlantic Coast Airlines from 1993-1996. This is a COMPLEX aircraft! You CANNOT even believe the electrical system on that plane, and even the flap mechanism puts a 727 or even a Hawker-Siddeley Trident to shame!
What's more, this airplane goes through ice very well; Blow the boots and the ice comes off.
That being said, I flew with an oblivious former Air Wisconsin Captain [these were the WORST!] one day and climbing out of Dulles in July, 1993 heading to Norfolk, I went heads down to get the ATIS and do the landing calculations "card", and suddenly, I felt the airplane stalling. I was a former flight instructor, and instinctively knew what the buffeting I was feeling was all about. We had been climbing through 17,000 feet at 165 knots, and suddenly, 30 seconds later I looked up and we were at about 105 knots or something like that!
I grabbed the controls instinctively and shoved the yoke forward, while simultaneously shoving the thrust levers full forward. Realizing my mistake, I slowly brought the condition levers towards 1050 RPM, the speed for icing; It was ALL OVER the windshield wiper! And of course instantly I heard it smacking the sides of the fuselage. Holy Ben-Wa balls Batman! He released the controls and I descended about 300 feet to get back to 165 knots. "Dude! Dude! We've stalled! MY airplane!" I screamed, again, just instinctive. After I got the plane back under control [hello?] I said to myself "OMG I'm like I'm totally dead", and immediately thought up my defense to the Chief Pilot, which I was SURE I was going to be talking to very soon.
Afterall, I had Just Taken The Controls From a Captain. FROM a Captain....Just about 1 month into my career~
And what happened? We successfully flew to Norfolk. And landed. And we had about 8 United Airlines pilots on board, and I expected that ALL of them would poke their heads into the cockpit and inquire just what the fuck we thought we were doing, but the reality is that all of them stopped and said "Hey guys, thanx for the ride!" What?
And what did my "Captain" have to say about the whole thing when we got on the ground?
"If you shove the throttles forward, you really should push the condition levers forward first".
I'm not kidding, that is ALL he had to say about STALLING the airplane! I just kinda sorta kept quiet.
Rise Air (formerly Transwest and Westwind) in Saskatchewan fly 1900's, ATR 42's and have a Saab 340a and 340b. The loudest is the Saab 340a.
I once travelled from montreal to ottawa in these. It was a great ride with 25 people.
I'd actually say that where electric planes have the most potential (within this decade), are remote areas. 400 kilometers of range is plenty for most regional flying, although it of course wont't be able to replace all of them.
Also, their small capacity of max 19 passengers is best suited for lower demand routes, e.g. remote areas, rather than between larger population centres.
That's true, however the problem is that smaller airports will probably be behind the large airport curve in terms of charging capacity. While I can see Vancouver, Calgary and Toronto installing services for electric plane charging, I can't imagine airports in Kelowna, Thompson or Thunder Bay being willing to spend the cash when it would probably temporarily kill revenue.
@@aidanw9378 also true, but if we look at how quickly electric car chargers have been constructed, it can be done. Especially since the chargers would only be needed at the airports (obviously lol), instead of all around like with cars.
They might only get those 400 km with 19 passengers and almost no payload. That might not be as useful in remote areas where they need to carry payload as well The range may be further limited on really cold days as generally electric vehicle ranges are reduced in cold weather. The hybrids may be the better option for remote areas, especially if the battery could optionally be removed to support higher payloads or extended range.
@@aidanw9378 You might be surprised. Kelowna (YLW) is the home of KF Aerospace. If they can convert Boeing 737s for freight operations, I’m sure installing charging stations would be no problem.
One possible use would be to connect city pairs in the "I'd fly if it was direct" range that aren't big enough to justify a larger aircraft. One example here in the states would Green Bay, Wisconsin to Grand Rapids Michigan. Their airports are about 171 miles (275 km) apart across Lake Michigan, but driving takes nearly 6 hours at best, or you can connect in Chicago or Detroit via airplane (which takes about as long). An electric aircraft going direct (assuming it could be cost-competitive) could fly that distance in an hour or less. There are probably similar routes for various cities around the Great Lakes, Gulf of Mexico, Scandinavia, etc.
Brazil has also many low-demand regional airports. Azul Airlines serves many of them with a fleet of 36 ATR-72. Even smaller airports are served by a fleet of 20 Cessna Grand Caravan (9 pax).
A couple of things. Thank you for saying Newfoundland and Labrador. ;)
The other thing, where I live, all we have are tiny planes and we are pretty much robbed to fly anywhere. A return flight to our own capital city is over $1000. It's very sad.
Taking my last dash 8-300 ride on Wednesday, really so sad to see them go :(
Very informative video 👍
This is a issue in Norway as well. Widerøe operates the Dash 100, 200, 300 and 400. But the fleet is old, and there is no replecment option
The Q400 is still modern, has Widerøe tried buying new -400's? It would help DHC as well, as they had to halt production because of a lack of orders and full backlog.
i remember a couple years ago Air Canada stopped serving our airport. westjet quickly swooped in and started service to our airport thru pacific coastal. even though the single runway here is 8000' long, there isn't enough demand for anything other than the turboprops
I’m hoping with the retirement of some of the Dash 8, Air Canada will start flying CRJ on Edmonton-Calgary with more frequency
oh boy, ive been on one of those beach 1900s. and they are not fun, it was the worst flight ive ever takem.
you could have someone taking directly into your ear and you still couldnt hear them, and the plane was very unstable and shook a lot.
awesome content dude!
Cool video, but a bit surprised that Porter wasn't even mentioned. Their entire fleet are small planes!
I remember my first ride on Dash 8 from Victoria to Vancouver. As I recall, I was expecting the usual Boeing 737. That was all way back when. But I was pretty surprised at being stuffed into the prop plane which was completely full of passengers. Single seating one side and double on the other side ?
None of the dash 8 variants have single seating on one side, you were likely in a twin otter
Omg 2:14 that B1900D is now owned by Panorama/Corpo Aviation and is based in CYHU! I see it every day in its new colors :D
I see a lot more ERJ & CRJs entering regional route service and municipalities extending the runways ex. Simcoe/Barrie for improved service. I understand not all runways can be extended but it makes more sense to extend than to build inefficient airplanes. Alos less fuel and take-off/landing performance is improved. Pilatus service a lot of remote locations anyways where there are minimal numbers of travellers
Jets usually consume twice the fuel of a turboprop over short flights. Jets are only fuel efficient up high, but they never fly at 25,000+ feet during short hops, as it's not worth the fuel to get up there. A jet from Simcoe/Barrie to Toronto makes no sense. But to destinations over 500 km away, jets start to do better.
0:13 I was flying with Turboprops (ATR 72 and De Havilland Dash 8) a few times and while they have the reputation of being loud, I don't find that it is really loud inside. I flew in jets that are worse if you sit directly over the engine. Also the legroom was much better than on Ryanair jets.
I take the dash 8 all the time between YUL YQB/YTC. A flight longer then 1h30 2h would be really annoying, let alone going coast to coast.. the views are great though, especially in winter,
The D328eco! Let's hope this project really pushes ahead👌
I wonder if the RJ would make a good option for longer runways. We had one by Summit flying for First Are back in the day.
Sunday is Jazz's last classic Dash flight. Timmins to Toronto. 😢
These were a fantastic bird.
Similar situation with similar/same aircraft types in Australia. Maybe the next 5-10 years will see demand grow to the level that it becomes viable for aircraft manufacturers again.
Here in New Zealand we are experiencing the same thing. A large chunk of our rural airports are served by the Q300 with Air New Zealand. While these planes will need to be retired soon, many of these routes are being replaced by private companies already
Do you think we will ultimately see the Link fleet shrink to just 1 type, or the introduction of the ATR42 as a replacement?
@@yudasgoat2000 I reckon we will just have 1 type because by 2027 when the Q300s may start retiring, the ATR 42 will also be getting old but who knows honestly.
I remember flying on a Pacific Western 737-200 between YVR and YLW for 40 minute flight in the late 1980s. Back then it seemed common to fly multi-stop "milk run" type flights on such aircraft. I believe the route was YVR-YLW-YYC.
@Timothy Simpson Same here. My dad sometimes brought home these chocolates with the PWA logo on them and give them to us kids after his business trips.
There is a twin turboprop stol aircraft available, as in production. Better yet, it is a Canadian aircraft. The Twin Otter DHC-6. The biggest drawback for it is it's standard commuter setup is 19 seats. You get multiple options for landing gear though, standard wheels, amphibious floats, straight floats, skis, wheels + skis. A 1000 km range means many short hops for longer trips but it can easily fit for low frequency services.
There is also the Czech-built LET410NG. 19 seats. quite modern.
However it has Czech Walter M601E engines, which may be complicated to maintain outside europe. LET should make an export version with PT6's.
i flew on a dash 8 fron Ottawa to Toronto a few years back, the plane was nowhere near full so was quite and enjoyable flight
Air Canada used to fly the Beech 1900D out of Bradley (Hartford CT). Now its a CRJ. Wish I could fly the 1900D
I've flown in a lot in 1900s, mainly with CMA. They get you there once your hearing recovers. It's always a toss up: do I sit in seat 1A and watch over the pilots' shoulders, or do I sit somewhere else and look out the window?
I flew in an Embraer EMB-110 Bandeirante once. Same general idea as a 1900. With all the same issues, plus they don't exist in Canada.
EMB110s are also pretty old, and out of production since 1990. (San Juan air used them on YYJ-CLM-SEA for a period of time)
The EMB-110 Bandeirante was also unpressurized, so not suitable for most routes in Canada. The larger, 30-seat, pressurized EMB-130 Brasilia was quie popular for a while with regional carriiers in the U.S. It competed with the Saab 340.
My Bandeirante flight was in 2010, flying to see an eclipse in the Cook Islands (NCRG-NCMG). We didn’t fly very high. Now I know why. 😎
I absolutely love Embraer. One of my favorite manufacturers.
es-19 very interesting first time to hear about this... i wonder if they will really able to deliver it on time
I've always found the CRJ100/200 to be the most claustrophic aircraft flying today. I avoid it like the plague. I much prefer the Dash 8's over the CRJ100/200.
I prefer the Dash as well. But in all honesty, Air Canada Jazz's CRJ-100/200's aren't that bad compared to other airlines. The European airline CRJ's are quite robust as well. I guess the USA doesn't know how to configure theirs.
I was at an air show in Toronto. There were more turboprops that flew over head than there were planes in the air show.
Being in ne Navy I flew Montreal-Victoria and Montreal-Halifax dozens and dozens of time. Wesjet and Air Canada often use Dash-8s for the last legs to those middle sized cities. I don’t know for the remote communities, but for this specific situations, where you need to go to that smaller town just outside the main route, like Halifax and Victoria, smaller turboprops seems to be ideal. I can’t count the number of times I’ve taken a Dash-8 from Montreal to Halifax or from Vancouver to Victoria. It will feel weird without them
If you look North from Montreal a thousand kilometres or so North is a place called Nunavik where thousands of people live in 14 Small communities
@@5ebliminal Oh geez don’t worry I know! No i meant in the economic sens I don’t know if Air Canada is managing to make a buck out of those routes, but for those last legs on the major one they must get even at least since those planes are always full
the turbo props are great for a quick and fairly affordable Ottawa-Toronto trip.
It will be interesting to see if AC evaluates Embraer's potential "all new" turboprop. Based on the E-Jets, it would be a great option now that they are flying the 175's. Another issue will be the replacement for the Crj-200's which are set to fly until the end of 2025. Maybe AC takes a page out of Delta's book and even considers ordering A220-100's to replace some of these regional routes?
The Dash 8s on the west coast are old enough that the interior plastics are all yellowed. It's almost nostalgic.
Ugh, the first couple times I flew on Dash 8's I thought it was broken it made so many wild noises.
Great video! Just a correction: ATR 42 can carry up to 50 passengers. Initially, the ATR 42 was designed to carry 42 passengers, hence the name. But the 42-100 was never built. Then, the capacity was increased to 46 passengers; that was the 42-200. Two prototypes were built. The first production variant was the 42-300 with a capacity of 50 passengers.
The ATR requires a surprisingly long runway for a small plane! Took off from Ngurah Rai on one of those and it needed the entire runway....the climbing performance was also bad
@@Zahrul3 Ngurah Rai has a 3000 meters long runway. An ATR doesn't need that much. Currently, I fly ATR 72 out of airports with 1200 meters long runways. When departing from Ngurah Rai, the pilots will not use the full runway length, but depart from one of the taxiways along the runway. This saves time.
Tbh this isn’t just a Canadian issue; air Greenland is one of the many carriers stuck in the Q200 hole, where the ATR42 doesn’t have enough speed and range , and anything else doesn’t have the performance req in terms of runway
If I didn't have to spend the night in Thunder Bay I was completely ready to book a YYZ-YQT-YWG-YYC-YLW-YVR trip on the Q400... was also ready to lose both my legs in the process. Killer video man!
don't stop at YVR, come on over to YCD and Ill put you up and take you to the pub.
try doing the same in the jumpseat "shelf"...
My Dad flew brand new Dash 8-100s for Horizon Airlines.
After flying Piper Navajos, Metroliners and F-28s for Air Oregon before the Horizon merger.
Even though he had flown the B-36 and B-52 for thousands of hours.
The "Hot Rod" Dash 8-100 was his favorite airplane. His computer password was DHCDash8.
Horizon Airlines eventually merged with Air Alaska after my Dad's forced retirement at age 60.
I did fly on a Q-400 Porter Airlines last summer from YYT to YOW return with a layover at YHZ. Which is good because it gave me a chance to stretch my legs.
I remember taking a flight from Abbotsford BC to Hamilton ON back in march of 2020 for a ticket price of 19$. My luggage cost more at ~60$.
That is Swoop for you LOL
Living in Newfoundland, I have been on all of the subject aircraft plus a few more (Short 330 anyone?). My favorite was the Metro for it's 'kick in the pants' acceleration during takeoff.
Bring back the DC-3 as a lengthened fuselage turboprop with a modern glass cockpit. Rugged, reliable. and could be used anywhere.
Only thing with that is not all airports carry AVGAS anymore and most of the northern Canada has gotten away from AVGAS as well, the Basler (DC3 Turboprop conversion) would be awesome though! JET fuel is available everywhere!
The Canadian Maritimes had an almost total shutdown in '20 do to Covid restrictions but the facts were they simply DIDN'T WANT people from the outside or other Provinces coming in and there was little push back from local business. During the summer of '21 some of the service was restored and very limited frequencies remain in effect on many routes while large aircraft cargo operations continue. With limited rail service this has meant near total exclusion for many communities, but that seems to be what the public will accept..Not to mention that tickets are prohibitively expensive. So if they won't travel Air Canada is only too willing to delete them.
I know, it's ridiculous. I visited my family in Saint John. So many flights have been changed and airlines have less service there.
Alex - your videos are great.
ATR have also launched the new ATR 42-600S A STOL (short takeoff and landing) variant of the -600. The aircraft is capable of operating from runways as short as 800-metre-long (2,600 ft) with up to 42 passengers. So that would be an ideal replacement.