Xelzaz: "It's just a corpse made useful. I don't see the problem." Remiel: "You're desecrating the dead. They shouldn't be disgraced like that." Serana: "Pay attention to me."
I think my heart broke when she said that he was an "awful" person. I can understand both sides, but I believe that might have caused tension for them in the end.
@@OnyxRos3 Yeah but daedra, generally speaking, don't like being summoned and if your not strong enough to bind them then they will kill you whereas with necromancy your mostly imparting your will in a soulless husk. Ironically necromancy is the safer side of conjuration 😅
Very tough one. On one hand all of Xel's points are fair and good, if the soul has moved on from the body there is little reason not to use it for one's purposes. On the other hand Remi provides valid reasons regarding sanctity and respect for the dead, her points appeal to the humanity of burial itself. Obviously her calling him awful was done in the heat of the moment, she did not mean that, her hesitation to directly answer his question implies so ( I am assuming). All in all, very beautifully acted and written by the authors of both mods. It really makes you appreciate the craft that goes into skyrim mods. Lol can you imagine if a Redguard was here?
@@renaigh oh yeah, i forgot his name as well. i remember he chastises you if try to loot any items or chest if he is with you. Goodness, made me remembering that dude.
God… I love the drama of this conversation, but I hope I never get this interaction based on hearing it makes them not interact for an in-game week, that sounds depressing and annoying to deal with :(
It's interesting hearing her talk about it being a 'final rest' because almost everyone in the elder scrolls who isn't soul trapped gets reincarnated eventually after their soul goes to the dream sleeve
holy crud, she literally has a line asking you if you know soul trap because scrap might need a new one. So she's literally fine with burning souls as fuel?
Ugh. Serana constantly moving around, standing close, staring and even standing in the way always annoys the hell out of me. Anyway I agree with both. This was an interesting debate. But I think Remi was wrong for calling Xelzaz a bad person.Would be cool if there was a way for the dragonborn to intervene and give thier thoughts on the subject.
@@ali4games10 I’d say, “it depends on who, or who’s soul, occupied that body, and what are they doing with the body. Reanimating a bandit that attacked you and using the body carry loot out of a dungeon is far from reanimating someone’s recently dead mother to wreak havoc in the city.”
She told him straight up he's a bad person... wow. Not going to lie, I agree mostly with Remi on this. I mean, raising corpses is bad in the ways she described and such. I just don't think much about it. *ahem* Serana summoning things that get in my way has not helped. I do find summoning things instead of corpses better to look at anyway lol. Meh. I mean, telling Xelzaz he's a bad person for that, he's not even too big on necromancy himself though, I don't agree with. Xelzaz does much much much more good than bad. Fuck, he's known for being a moral person! REMI!
She was upset and hearing someone she had in high regard probably got to her and she lashed out. She was the one to apologize later on so I don't hold it against her
turned myself invisible during the height of this argument cause dayuuum, I was just on my way to get a morthal house to get a library for Remiel, you could feeeel the tension in the room.
@@TheRogue_Paladin Kinda like standing out from the crowd speaking your own mind. Xelzaz is based for stating his moral argument and sticking to it. He is based in general for just having a moral compass in a world like skyrim. Love your vids!
After watching that argument from Xel n Remi… I only came to a one word answer….Damn. Only to the fact that Remi called Xelzaz a bad person to reanimating a corpse n using it for battle instead of burying it
Are the souls passed on? from the amount of necromancy i preformed when i was playing as a necromancer i cant tell you they FEEL pain, not just that they even beg you to release them and even thank you when you do, necromancy at least in Skyrim isnt just reanimating a body its straight up Dragging someones soul back to there rotting corpse to do your bidding, fo example the guy near winterhold in a dungeon who was kidnapping women just to kill and resurrect them and R-Word the Resurrected corpses, or the dragons back at the dragon age who enslaved there people and forced them to roam there own graves as dragur thousands of years later.
From a lore standpoint it's stated somewhere that a longer a soul has been away from its body its connection to said body is weaker whereas a person who was just killed is more strongly connected still. Explains why they can somewhat beg for release.
@@rahovartiv3464 still imagine someome drags your SO from the afrer life to kill you and there aware of whats happening, That would fuck both of yall up even after death.
@@TheRogue_Paladin As do I, I just agree with more of what Xelzaz said, and I don’t think calling him a bad person for using necromancy is exactly fair.
I can see both sides of this debate, and it's less formal than the book that has two Master Wizards debating the study and practice of necromancy. I have no problem with raising slain enemies to engage their former comrades. Raising a slain civilian is my line in the sand.
I think this is interesting. I like and dislike things about these followers but I do feel they are the closest to really feeling like real people. Remi is very absent minded and has a somewhat loose moral code when it comes to her research and achieving her goals, but she does have a lot of empathy towards people. Especially people who are persecuted because of some kind of curse or affiliation with the Daedra. I feel Remi is perhaps the best example of a truly morally grey follower, she’s a good friend and nice to be around but she has very few scruples. Her hatred of necromancy also makes sense because of her backstory. Xelzaz on the other hand is a very Black and White thinker. All Daedra are bad, the Hist are all good. He’s definitely funny and has his moments and is genuinely very supportive of the player but you see his more judge mental nature slip through, especially if the player character sides with the Daedra.He is massively condescending to the player if they choose to become a vampire or werewolf, but feels binding himself to the Hist and having it fundamentally alter Argonians is completely different. He has a strong sense of morality but is often very hypocritical. Seeing them Duke it out over necromancy is interesting. I personally think Remi has the stronger arguement because everything Xelzaz says the undead can be used for can be done with another form of conjugation or a a crying or even using alteration magic.
until a Corpse can demonstrate they are who they were before being killed, then I'll consider Necromancy a crime against the living. But if they did that would simply make Necromancy an advanced Restoration school of magic invaluable to grieving loved ones who want their friend and/or family back.
Frankly idc about bandits feelins when their attacking and terrorizing everyone in their path. I'm on xels side here, this dialogue alone makes me dislike her now so I'm glad I saw this before using her.
@@TheRogue_Paladin I'd say their are certain conditions like agreeing to some "honorable duel" or something along those lines that'd give you an obvious pass on raising you but if your some random guy trying to kill me or my friends than all bets are off. Her calling xel a bad person in the context of this conversation is like me calling someone from a different religion a bad person for practicing something from their religion.
@@TheRogue_Paladin I should probably say I understand her personal bias as it makes complete sense given her background but I mean given all dwarven machines are literally powered by soul gems she herself is using the soul of something to power her spider 🤷♂️
She's not terrible, though she did get quite heated. I haven't used Remi either and this didn't give me ill-will towards her. I think it really depends on who you raise making you a bad person. Like, a simple innocent farmer or a bandit or cultist.
Xelzaz: "It's just a corpse made useful. I don't see the problem."
Remiel: "You're desecrating the dead. They shouldn't be disgraced like that."
Serana: "Pay attention to me."
Serana is dead so it’s not desecration when she does it.
I've always been against rising the dead but the summoning of demons didn't have me bat an eyelash. Is necromancy worse than demonic summoning?
I think the main issue is your effecting and potentially causing suffering to the soul of the body
I think my heart broke when she said that he was an "awful" person. I can understand both sides, but I believe that might have caused tension for them in the end.
They actually refuse to talk to each other after
@@TheRogue_Paladin I hope I never get that converstion then
Me too ):
They eventually make up one week afterwards in-game time
@@prismanic24 I want to see this now lol.
Xel makes some solid points. And really, isn't it better to send some undead corpses to deal with a threat than risk the lives of the living?
On the contrary, Xelzaz is capable of summoning atronachs instead so ruining someone's body isn't needed
@@OnyxRos3 Yeah but daedra, generally speaking, don't like being summoned and if your not strong enough to bind them then they will kill you whereas with necromancy your mostly imparting your will in a soulless husk. Ironically necromancy is the safer side of conjuration 😅
the dragonborn listening to the argument: 👁👄👁
Very tough one. On one hand all of Xel's points are fair and good, if the soul has moved on from the body there is little reason not to use it for one's purposes. On the other hand Remi provides valid reasons regarding sanctity and respect for the dead, her points appeal to the humanity of burial itself.
Obviously her calling him awful was done in the heat of the moment, she did not mean that, her hesitation to directly answer his question implies so ( I am assuming).
All in all, very beautifully acted and written by the authors of both mods. It really makes you appreciate the craft that goes into skyrim mods.
Lol can you imagine if a Redguard was here?
or what's his name in that one Nord tomb who wants to rid it of a Necromancer resurrecting his dead family
@@renaigh oh yeah, i forgot his name as well. i remember he chastises you if try to loot any items or chest if he is with you. Goodness, made me remembering that dude.
God… I love the drama of this conversation, but I hope I never get this interaction based on hearing it makes them not interact for an in-game week, that sounds depressing and annoying to deal with :(
It's interesting hearing her talk about it being a 'final rest' because almost everyone in the elder scrolls who isn't soul trapped gets reincarnated eventually after their soul goes to the dream sleeve
Also hold on. Dwemer automata use soul gems right? So she's fine with binding a soul to do her bidding but a corpse...
@@fg09403 The gem is never black though
holy crud, she literally has a line asking you if you know soul trap because scrap might need a new one. So she's literally fine with burning souls as fuel?
@neo bear as long as it's not black. Cause everyone seems fine with non Sentient beings of animals being used as soul fuel.
@@fg09403 white souls, not black souls. Soul trapping white souls is considered normal, while trapping black souls is considered necromancy.
Ugh. Serana constantly moving around, standing close, staring and even standing in the way always annoys the hell out of me. Anyway I agree with both. This was an interesting debate. But I think Remi was wrong for calling Xelzaz a bad person.Would be cool if there was a way for the dragonborn to intervene and give thier thoughts on the subject.
if you could intervene what would you say?
I was once watching a convo between Lucien and Inigo and Serana walks in front of me, getting really close, and stares at me. I Fire breathed her.
@@ali4games10 I’d say, “it depends on who, or who’s soul, occupied that body, and what are they doing with the body. Reanimating a bandit that attacked you and using the body carry loot out of a dungeon is far from reanimating someone’s recently dead mother to wreak havoc in the city.”
Damn I didn’t expect to hear Xelzaz sound so sad when hearing Remi call him a bad person.
She told him straight up he's a bad person... wow. Not going to lie, I agree mostly with Remi on this. I mean, raising corpses is bad in the ways she described and such. I just don't think much about it. *ahem* Serana summoning things that get in my way has not helped. I do find summoning things instead of corpses better to look at anyway lol. Meh.
I mean, telling Xelzaz he's a bad person for that, he's not even too big on necromancy himself though, I don't agree with. Xelzaz does much much much more good than bad. Fuck, he's known for being a moral person! REMI!
i support necromancy
@@reggielacey2235 Way to add to the discussion 😆
She was upset and hearing someone she had in high regard probably got to her and she lashed out. She was the one to apologize later on so I don't hold it against her
turned myself invisible during the height of this argument cause dayuuum, I was just on my way to get a morthal house to get a library for Remiel, you could feeeel the tension in the room.
Did she just say
By the eight?
Oh no
High Rock is an Imperial Province, nor do they have any direct cultural history that is linked to Talos' mortal past. So... Yeah.
Counter Point: I think summoning "Blast Bones" and havinga Skeleton run towards someone before exploding is funny.
Xelzaz being based as usual.
I'm showing my age what does based mean
@@TheRogue_Paladin ruclips.net/video/aYTN9ENxZXE/видео.html
@@TheRogue_Paladin "Based? Based on what?"
@@TheRogue_Paladin Kinda like standing out from the crowd speaking your own mind. Xelzaz is based for stating his moral argument and sticking to it. He is based in general for just having a moral compass in a world like skyrim. Love your vids!
After watching that argument from Xel n Remi… I only came to a one word answer….Damn. Only to the fact that Remi called Xelzaz a bad person to reanimating a corpse n using it for battle instead of burying it
Are the souls passed on? from the amount of necromancy i preformed when i was playing as a necromancer i cant tell you they FEEL pain, not just that they even beg you to release them and even thank you when you do, necromancy at least in Skyrim isnt just reanimating a body its straight up Dragging someones soul back to there rotting corpse to do your bidding, fo example the guy near winterhold in a dungeon who was kidnapping women just to kill and resurrect them and R-Word the Resurrected corpses, or the dragons back at the dragon age who enslaved there people and forced them to roam there own graves as dragur thousands of years later.
From a lore standpoint it's stated somewhere that a longer a soul has been away from its body its connection to said body is weaker whereas a person who was just killed is more strongly connected still. Explains why they can somewhat beg for release.
They legit say "Thank you" as they die.
@@rahovartiv3464 still imagine someome drags your SO from the afrer life to kill you and there aware of whats happening, That would fuck both of yall up even after death.
As a fellow dunmer this was quite the interesting conversation.
Necromancy is fine, soul trapping is abhorrent. Trust me, I've seen the Soul Cairn.
I’m of a mind with Xelzaz.
I understand both tbh
@@TheRogue_Paladin As do I, I just agree with more of what Xelzaz said, and I don’t think calling him a bad person for using necromancy is exactly fair.
Same here. Necromancy, as any other type of magic, is a tool to be used.
@@DarkAdonisVyers Exactly. A very useful one at that.
She is so judgmental, Xelzaz is willing to see things her way and she has a closed mind to everything. Xelzaz is the best
I mean her father body was raised by necromancers so naturally she would have these opinions.
I can see both sides of this debate, and it's less formal than the book that has two Master Wizards debating the study and practice of necromancy. I have no problem with raising slain enemies to engage their former comrades. Raising a slain civilian is my line in the sand.
Meanwhile, Serana, an ancient vampire, walks around awkwardly, thinking "Wait, am I a bad person too?"
how did you get this dialog between them? I never heard this one before
Go to a vampire or necromancer lair , I was at morvarth cave
I think this is interesting. I like and dislike things about these followers but I do feel they are the closest to really feeling like real people.
Remi is very absent minded and has a somewhat loose moral code when it comes to her research and achieving her goals, but she does have a lot of empathy towards people. Especially people who are persecuted because of some kind of curse or affiliation with the Daedra. I feel Remi is perhaps the best example of a truly morally grey follower, she’s a good friend and nice to be around but she has very few scruples. Her hatred of necromancy also makes sense because of her backstory.
Xelzaz on the other hand is a very Black and White thinker. All Daedra are bad, the Hist are all good. He’s definitely funny and has his moments and is genuinely very supportive of the player but you see his more judge mental nature slip through, especially if the player character sides with the Daedra.He is massively condescending to the player if they choose to become a vampire or werewolf, but feels binding himself to the Hist and having it fundamentally alter Argonians is completely different. He has a strong sense of morality but is often very hypocritical.
Seeing them Duke it out over necromancy is interesting. I personally think Remi has the stronger arguement because everything Xelzaz says the undead can be used for can be done with another form of conjugation or a a crying or even using alteration magic.
Look at Serana and say all of that again.
until a Corpse can demonstrate they are who they were before being killed, then I'll consider Necromancy a crime against the living. But if they did that would simply make Necromancy an advanced Restoration school of magic invaluable to grieving loved ones who want their friend and/or family back.
See Remiel wouldn't work for my girl, she's a Pyromancer. Appreciate all the love and work that goes into her mod though!
Meanwhile, my necromancer DB character: 😶
Frankly idc about bandits feelins when their attacking and terrorizing everyone in their path. I'm on xels side here, this dialogue alone makes me dislike her now so I'm glad I saw this before using her.
That's rather rude , if you check my videos on her she explains why
Edit, necromancer raised her father's body
@@TheRogue_Paladin I'd say their are certain conditions like agreeing to some "honorable duel" or something along those lines that'd give you an obvious pass on raising you but if your some random guy trying to kill me or my friends than all bets are off. Her calling xel a bad person in the context of this conversation is like me calling someone from a different religion a bad person for practicing something from their religion.
@@TheRogue_Paladin I should probably say I understand her personal bias as it makes complete sense given her background but I mean given all dwarven machines are literally powered by soul gems she herself is using the soul of something to power her spider 🤷♂️
She's not terrible, though she did get quite heated. I haven't used Remi either and this didn't give me ill-will towards her. I think it really depends on who you raise making you a bad person. Like, a simple innocent farmer or a bandit or cultist.
honestly they both make valid arguments.