CNC machining a 'Shaft' for Haimer Digital 3D Probe
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- Опубликовано: 16 янв 2020
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Tiny Drill Press: www.banggood.com/custlink/mv3...
Haimer Digital Probe: www.haimer.biz/products/measu...
ATC Spindle: www.mechatron-gmbh.de/
Servos: www.motioncontrolproducts.co....
Thread Milling Bits: www.sorotec.de/shop/Cutting-T...
Steel CNC parts: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_rRTcyL 
Наука
A tip for the new Haimer user: Those things don't like to be spun up to 10k rpm. Don't ask me how i know.
There is a video from NYCCNC of what happens to it at high rpc: ruclips.net/video/V8tQsXszzm8/видео.html
Another tip for the new Haimer user: don't press the wrong button when the Haimer is in the spindle.
My fadal just crunched my Haimer about 20 minutes ago because I didn't observe a tool offset :(
And I mean really crunched it. The aluminum thing on the bottom deformed into the threads of the body and there is some more mangled metal I can see in there. This one is done.
imgur.com/a/vS4eRyl
Muahahahahahahaha. Good thing yoy covered your tacks, now no one will ever know. As long as you don't spill the be.... Ahhh wait
Tip: don't smack it into the machine bed.
Ouch... I feel yall's pain.
Listen Marco, you spent a year of work (easily costing 100k euros +), probably 10k euros in parts and equipment, spent significant amount of your time on earth which could be put towards anything, and probably endured injuries moving those massive amounts of steel around, but in the end you had fun. That first moment you turned it on and watched your creation work, the rush of good feeling of accomplishment makes it worth it. Yes you can buy a El Noname CNC from ALIexpress for dirt cheap, but will it have picometer resolution and a cutout in the window just to mount the zaxis, and an oil pump to give you nightmares? Didn't think so. You enjoy the process of diying and that's the point. Not to discredit your work or anything, but really, the end result could be anything whatsoever, if you had fun, it's still a success.
Marco,
While I can attest to a certain bafflement when you wander into using and hacking electronic instruments, I greatly enjoy many aspects of your videos, especially your humor, intelligence and humility. The end of the video where you describe your mistakes in DIY CNC land was helpful and informative, I'm sure, to anyone contemplating a similar path.
I only can second that the end part was really useful! (and also a quiet relief ;) ).
I literally just got my lubriquip distributor from eBay today. Wish I had seen this video first. Well, hopefully it will be entertaining fiddling with it
Marco, those aluminium chips at the beginning made me uneasy. The hardened microscopic iron chips gives me nightmares. Roll on the high pressure flood coolant!
would a strong electromagnet help with the iron chips?
@@BenMitro It's better to not have them be airborne and cover everything. High pressure flood coolant will stop that and evacuate the chips from the cutter an stop them from being ground into the part you're trying to cut.
@@BenMitro They could be oxidized so a magnet does very little to capture them.
They're also flammable and AL is able to spontaneously combust at 3 micron.
Why are the chips bad
And with this you become the producer of the best machinist videos on RUclips. Seriously. Marco, you beat them all! Ego aside, you admit when reality defeats you, but you fight back!
Use a sound card and synchronous detection for the roughness meter. One channel of the sound card can measure the stimulus signal and the other the received signal. The phase error between the left and right channel is extremely low and the sound card can handle signal levels from the low millivolt level to a couple of volts with 24 bit resolution and low noise.
Excellent idea, what with many modern sound cards having sufficiently high signal to noise ratios, though I wonder how much noise even unshielded cables would introduce.
With a known travel from one end to the other and length of recording, a visual representation of surface roughness could be derived pretty easily and with repeat measurements, much of the noise could be interpolated out, I reckon.
@@Kageitenshi
Cheap, shielded audio cables are sufficient to give good results provided there are no powerful noise generators around. I've used my sound card with Python and Numpy to do various AC measurements and got excellent results. I use ALSA for controlling the card which limits the minimum sample time to one second. Other than relatively slow measurement times, my results have been very good with noise levels in the microvolt range.
@@Proud2bmodest Very nice, I suppose using both channels to get a differential input makes the biggest difference in measurement quality?
@@Kageitenshi
The inputs are single ended and both crosstalk and gain matching are relatively poor. This makes for poor differential measurements.
The ideal measurement is ratiometric where the ratio of voltages between two inputs is used. The inputs share the same reference voltage and the gains will track with temperature which cancels out ratio type errors. It is possible measure the gains and adjust the readings, but the errors are still too high for good differential measurements.
For an application using an LVDT, (linear differential transformer), voltage ratio is more critical than absolute voltages.
A fixed frequency is applied to one side of the transformer and the voltage ratio of the secondary windings and to some extent, the phase, is used in the measurement. Since a single frequency is used, a narrow measurement bandwidth can be used which reduces noise and since the gain ratios track, the measurement is very stable.
As an experiment, I hooked up a used LVDT with a 3mm stroke bought on EBay directly to my sound card. The repeatability was in the nanometer range without using any external hardware.
See www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/AD598.pdf which shows a dedicated chip for LVDT applications.
With a sound card connected to a powerful CPU, extensive signal processing can be done which would not be possible on a chip.
The only problem is that the measurement rate is slow since ALSA's minimum sample time is one second. For an application like measuring surface roughness, this shouldn't be a problem.
@@Proud2bmodest Thank you for an in depth explanation. That makes much more sense than how I interpreted it at first. Makes more sense to think of it as a linear resolver than a sound coil from a record player.
I've been very interested in metrology since I started planning and building a CNC router and lathe. Becoming obsessed with precision and repeatability has been a nasty side effect, especially after I manually cleaned up a rough spindle bore to reduce its runout. Had been thinking about building some simple device that would measure surface imperfections better than a dial indicator. This sounds like an interesting thing to put on my to do list.
Oh ouch, that tool shoulder friction welding around that block was _painful_ to watch! >.
Your explanation of the center finding tool was so perfect. I never understood precisely how it found the center in all these videos. But the precision 4mm ball finally finished the missing part in my mind.
I live my tech life vicariously through you!
vicariously i live while the whole world dies 🎵🎵
... anybody?
why can't we just admit it?
If only the suppliers for aluminum profiles weren't taking their sweet time to send in the parts I've ordered for my CNC router, I wouldn't be all anxious and envious of those with their CNC toys already running like this. Should've gotten a quote for waterjet cut plates as well. Maybe next week.
Have been accumulating parts for years, with quite a few quality parts from dismantled industrial machines, but finally got the opportunity to get it done. The darn thing also grew from a mere 400W spindle and 25W Coherent fiber coupled diode laser to 2.2kW spindle and from steppers to iHSV57 servos for X and Y axis. Then I ended up finding an excellent, yet suspiciously cheap 1.9kW servo with a brake and a Heidenhain EQI absolute encoder from a Wittmann industrial robot to start on a CNC lathe / 4th axis / grinder / cutter as well, with heavy duty linear roller bearings.
Planning on using epoxy granite to eventually stiffen the router's aluminum profiles and to cast a level work bed for it with embedded mounting nuts. Still on early stages of planning for the lathe, but it'll likely have a basic steel / aluminum frame that can be easily adjusted for precision and then cast with concrete and epoxy granite infills to lock everything in place. Have also been looking at inductive linear absolute encoders and other such to compensate for the minute imprecision of Chinese ballscrews.
Really appreciate your summary of what hasn't worked so well and why.
@@reps \m/
Hello! The thermal problems mentioned when OD circle milling the adapter would be nearly unavoidable by just changing speeds and feeds, given the geometry of the wall and the material that you're milling. The problem is that as the OD decreases and wall thickness becomes becomes smaller, the material deforms away from the tool. The additional heat generated from friction is forced into an even thinner material cross section. To avoid this, you would probably need to accept some additional tip wear and use a top-down approach, removing the entire top face in 1 pass with multiple Z steps. The good news is that when peel milling like you were, the tool is not usually heated too badly and you could probably do this for quite a while without thermal damage.
Sounds reasonable! Yes, exactly, I was surprised that the tool was cool after creating all those sparks.
Frick yeah! I've been looking forward to see your vids!
Yaaaay finally I got to see a new vídeo! I have to congratulate you, your vídeos are awesome and I was watching all of them! New sub!
I worked year ago on aluminum Water pump for GM Car part manufacturer called Linamar Machines and in the machining process we used Varsol as a lubricant. we mist sprayed it with a spray bottle. In those days we smoked while working and some times the guys would through their buts in the shavings and the Varsol would start a fire and it was so invisible of a flame it was good the whole building was cement blocks. The flames would burn them selves out before any damage would acure. Try Varsol the chips don't stick i think because it is a fine oil that with stands heat and only catches fire from open spark. Make sure you wear a face air mask just in case. In the 80's people didn't care about what they breathed in and it shows in the health of the older generation.
I love the design of that probe! well done Haimer
Quality of your content is truly amazing man, keep it up :)
"Electronic Engineering on-the-fly" is indicative of true mastery.
Excellent presentation. Some of it over my head but still (1.) fun to listen to and (2.) informative. Good job.
Pretty nice job there, dude! Really interesting the thread making tool!
Thanks Marco, that was fun and fascinating.
Man, you need to increase the chip load! Love your videos and i AM also in the process of building my own smal CNC. Keep theese awesome videos coming!
Some diffraction gratings may be useful for calibrating your surface roughness measuring toy. You can get them with a pretty wide range of lines/mm. Well defined periodic features on the length scales you may be interested in.
yep. another 10/10 vid, keep it up man
I've been trying to figure out what a cusp is for over 3 months and you literally answered it in a random comment. Thanks!
Great video. Always interesting and I appreciate the after build evaluation. That kind of backward glance on DIY machine building is probably inevitable until you've done it enough that you end up with a Datron 😁.
Try a more aggressive pitch or feedrate on your helical entry in aluminium to avoid the sticky dust you're getting, I'm sure with a fairly rigid machine like yours and the high speed spindle you should be able to increase the chip size easily without any trouble
Thought exactly the same 👍🏻 he should easily be able to run with a 4 -6 deg. Helix angle and around .05 mm per tooth in Aluminium
Love your videos, thanks.
New video 😍 ive watched nearly all of your vieos two ore 3 time just because they are so funny with hidden things and jokes👌 keep going that style
It would't be half the fun to watch if this wouldn't be this totally over the top project.
I think your sponsors agree on that and send the stuff mostly for the giggles.
very good video..thanks for your time
I spit my drink out when you ran the bit through the side of those threads lol
Liked and subscribed. Brilliant.
Perfect timing before going to bed😍👍🏿
thank you for the advice at 17:40. I was actually looking for something less expensive than cast iron with better stiffness. This is a good topic for one of your next videos.. share with us what you have found out to be good enough.
turn on "shaft and holder" in your profile op, then fusion will trim the toolpath to avoid shaft collisions by a user specified distance.
I came to the comments to say this. It's amazing but since it apparently requires extra processing during toolpath calculation they opt to save it by default.
I typically use this to help determine tool stickout when opening deep mold cavities. almost never use trim.
Marco, in my early aluminium CNC machining days, try 35 years ago, I used Methylated Spirits/denatured alcohol, it made good a lubricant and coolant. Thanks for all your videos.
It is one of the best coolants, but only for aluminum parts....
Sounds like a huge fire hazard
@@igorb4650 When cutting aluminum, no sparks, no danger. It just need a good steady spray in good quantity, so the only problem is good ventilation of the room...
Super Video ! Als Zerspaner kann ich dir ein paar Tipps, für Aluminium solltest du immer Fräser speziell für Aluminium nehmen, wenn du beim Fräsen von Aluminium solchen Staub machst solltest du deine seitliche Zustellung vergrößern, Gewinde fräst mann von unten nach oben und wenn du Oberflächen wirklich gerade und eben fräsen willst dann nimmt man in Fusion 2D Plannen und eine seitliche Zustellung von dem Radius des Fräsers.
I don't think your content is too much useful but on that first video I think much better!!!
Datron uses Ethanol mist coolant and polished carbide tools for aluminum! It is an excelent coolant and lubricant for soft materials, and it evaporates very quickly. No more aluminum sludge.
I know this is a long time after the fact, but you could read that roughness meter fairly reliably using a lock in amplifier - extracting the amplitude of an output of the same frequency as a stimulus seems like textbook LIA work. You can also use either a modulator IC from AD etc. or a synchronous sample and hold to get a DC signal which you are no doubt well equipped to measure. With this technique you risk attenuating your signal if it is out of phase, so quadrature detection is also a good idea. We are currently designing a similar circuit at uni to process signals from capacitive strain gauges on silicon, and it's pretty much the same idea as your roughness meter.
Nice summary
Marco Reps - CNC Maniac. The router spits red hot chips and flames? Increase the chipload! **hides behind a bulletproof wall**
love your scope we use that at work
best video advise
Maybe you could try the surface of an "first surface mirror" (just the backside of an regular mirror?) for your roughness (flatness..) tests. Should be flat to below 400nm as hobbyists use them in laser interferometers (afair) - at least within an small radiant. Just an idea. Otherwise the plattern should do really good as others suggested.
last time i was involved in doing surface roughness measurments we used some quite coarse diffraction gratings to calibrate/sanity test our white light interferometers, might be a good jumping off point for you, and for very flat as someone else mentioned, its hard to go wrong with silicon wafer for flat and cheap (or if you feel like being spendy, i can attest that Element 6 sell some very flat polished synthetic diamond if you can convince them to sell it to you).
First I thought about building a concrete CNC. It is extremely cheap. 100€ for the whole frame and already mixed. They can fil it right into your mold. But that shrinks for years. Then I thought about using epoxy granite. Very expensive due to the epoxy. And I am worried about thermal run away. 100kg if epoxy for a 1000kg frame. Then I looked into polymer concrete, but that is just as expensive as epoxy granite. 10x as much as normal pre-mixed concrete from the plant. And you have to mix it yourself which will make a mess. Now I designed a 4mm steel frame that gets laser cut, slotted together and then welded. Will make a sturdy box section with plenty of mass and stiffness.
Funny to see randomly the Mahr PS 10 popping up as I just ordered one to my workplace, after looking at the exact same pictures and tables :) Seems like a reasonably well built tool and generating pdf in the instrument is an absolute killer feature in this application. Probably running linux inside, as the update package filename ends to .deb. Nice.
3:35 it is squeeking when cut path radius is equal to tool radius. it will leave very ugly surface in the corner so you can look at that and see if it's the case
Yeah, that's not squeeking. That chatter.
Great video. I really think Haimer should get a clue and start to make smaller shanks on their probes. I would love a digital one, but I have the Zero Master Analog Sensor.
13:36; Yes fusion is well aware of shaft diameter and shoulder length. Just hit 'simulate' and you'll be warned with red flags if collision occurs. If you draw/include the fixtures in the cam setup, it's aware of those too. Just make a habit out of it to always simulate the toolpath, and while posting ALWAYS check the Z height posted in the first few lines of the g-code to avoid Z crashes. Make a solid habit out of it and you're going to crash less. They only thing that bugs me in fusion is with 3d adaptive; if you use a lead-in or lead out of only ~2mm, expect movements well over 50mm of the part..
I like that you share honest thoughts at the end of the movie. Thanks for sharing and keep the good work in the future!
your accent and intonation reminds me of The Spaceape song from Burial
I've listened to Burial and this coincidence has never occurred to me. But now to think of it, it really reminds that voice.
People seem to really undervalue the learning process. Sure, you might have bought the machine for less than you built it, but does that necessarily mean you'd be able to effectively use it straight away? Thanks for taking the long way. It's made for interesting RUclips videos, if nothing else. Better change out that 3D printed part though. :D
Looks like your vice is a little magnetic?
Thanks for sharing :-)
We love your videos! I wish I knew 1% of what you do.
For surface roughness calibrate with: 1) Lapped ice blocks for science, 2) lapped glass or granite, 3) cat, 4) A jewel from any luxuriously exquisite jewelry.
I was thinking Ice. At the localised point of pressure it should melt and perhaps reduce friction. I wonder if my kids will let me freeze a layer of water onto a record to try in the player
13:30 looks a lot like AvE's legendary flow drilling video, but now we have flow filleting. Too late to patent it now!
how about using a plane of glass as a calibrating surface? glass is pretty smooth right?
Haha I love your conclusion. As much as I enjoyed the last year building mine I will not build one again lol next time I’ll be getting and old cnc and upgrading
I think I just pulled my haimer laughing
Good video, now that you're done with the CNC can we get measuring High Voltage with new Keithleys?
Did you make the mini drill press at 2:20?
Du könntest Ethanol für die Sprühnebelkühlung nutzen, das wird von Datron für HSC Anwendungen empfohlen und funtkioniert rückstandsfrei und verklet die Späne nicht so sehr wie Öl. (Gleichzeitig reinigt es dein Werkstück ^^)
What is that table-top drill press early in the video? It looks like exactly what I need.
Anyone know?
Try looking into the coolant Datron machines use, I can give you exact name in a few days, but have to check the label on cans at work. It is some kind of alcohol/solvent, cools pretty well when used with high rpm spindles and low feed loads/depths, also evaporates instantly so you end up with completely dry chips that stick to stuff only due to some static electricity
Datron sell there own cutting fluids,
Although in the UK they tend to recommend industrial ethanol, we don't tend to cut ferrous materials at work on our datron but have used wd40 when we do, my understanding is that the cutting fluid they sell for ferrous materials is a similar viscosity oil
The ethanol is clean up free
I'm told that the oil take a bit more cleaning up
Ein Tipp: Du kannst alte Schaftfräser die mit Aluminium verklebt sind, retten, indem du sie in eine möglichst konzentrierte Natriumhydroxid-Lösungn legst.
die platter einer HDD wären wohl eine ziemlich gute kalibrationsfläche
Flood coolant would almost certainly be helpful with eliminating or minimizing issues you are likely experiencing and will encounter, but as with nearly everything involving machining and or machine tools solutions are paralleled by sacrifices. Your high rpm spindle will atomize much of your flood before it can return to your reservoir so factor in a mist buster and oil separation from your coolant supply if you go that route. Water testing your enclosure will also be a good idea unless you enjoy the potential for perpetual leaks. Min quantity and cold air have their own pros and cons to contend with of course. Im not familiar with your spindle mfgr but they appear to have a pretty good handle on design and possibly have TSC (through spindle coolant) options that are available. TSC is great but it isnt rare for those to take a big shit even on machines that are designed from the start to spray high pressures through tool. Congrats on all your successes so far though, and good luck tackling your thermal issues. PS just because you can spin at 30k doesnt mean you should..... :)
could you measure a roller bearing surface to measure?
Currently building a CNC using 9090 aluminum. You mentioned filling aluminum with polymer cement. Any tips on what I should be looking for?
2:35 vape nation, i nearly died :D
19:02 nice to see the old Deckel FP2 highspeed drilling heads are still getting used these days. Are you going to set it with a PWM? Or just spinning it up via 3-phase?
Excellent content describing your CNC journey. I particularly took note of your advice not to start from scratch. I am in the planning stages, and my starting basis is a huge granite slab, 1500mm x 1020 x 170 that has formerly been the table of a four-spindle PCB drilling machine(70's-80's). I was thinking having it cut to size, and make it into a gantry CNC machine a'la Piotr Fox, with raised Y-axis rails on granite, and granite gantry. I have watched countless epoxy-granite builds, but figure that real granite is better. Especially since I have it available for free. There will however be more design limitation than when casting epoxy. I am also looking at the same spindle you have, or Jianken. If price isn't too far off, I would prefer the Mechatron being lighter and with HSK spindle.
But then today, I found for sale locally an Aerotech AGS1000 gantry, with linear motors and Renishaw encoders. 2 m/s ! , 2 G acceleration, and a total mechanical accuracy of 5 microns. Needs servo drivers, spindle and motion controller. It is costly, but probably less that what it would cost to build from scratch putting quality parts into it. Down side is that it will probably not be suitable for steel.
An then I hear you say: don't start from scratch. Mmmm.
BTW, when I see you chip/dust problems, I think of Piotr Fox's low pressure high volume flood cooling solution. The guy has some good ideas, and his chip problem seem to have been solved (although i cringe of the way he treats his granite surface plate during the build)
Again, thanks for all your excellent content. Some of it way over my engineering head.
Does the probe have a data output connection?
Optically flat glass would be a good reference surface, right?
Good tech here, my friend! Keep up the good work. And I do hope you take advantage of your comic talent in some local club... It's especially good for intelligent audiences.
Possibly silicon wafers could be used as a calibration surface. They're usually produced with a quoted Ra.
What is all this precision cnc for? Like what practical applications does it have that warrants such a high effort? It's super fascinating.
Pwoli
How accurate would you say this is vs a mill?
Take some nice hard steel and some known grit size sandpaper and make the surface nice and smooth, that should give you a good ballpark for calibration
yeah, for fusion360, always simulate and look for the red blocks on the time-line, it a collision.
Anyone know which forum that is at 17:39? Looks like an interest read
For calibration surfaces get a silicon wafer, they come with surface roughness data.
better than asmr
7:16 did you see that the chips aligned themselves on magnetic field lines on both of the chucks?
Jokes were on point. I loved the " that will get moped away with an oily rag later" my god, we just might be brothers
h'wait, you did check "shaft and holder detection" right? It will work if you check that.
VAPE NAYSHE MARCO
Ignore cusps. That was very funny. I still don't know why Fusion 360 leaves that setting on by default. As you said, pretty hard to ignore. However, it will show in the Fusion simulation process. So careful attention to the final product after simulation "should" show that burr (or cusp) present in the simulation.
have you considered the vers 3d touch probe? they also made a wireless rechargeable version and it should suit your setup better i think
nope never heard of it!
github.com/verser-git/probe_screen_v2
but with linuxcnc integration on github? that sounds like a cool company for sure.
@ManMadeDesaster Whoa! This is what I've been looking for to use for my router to be. No wires, small diameter shank, decent precision with a price that doesn't break the bank! Thank you for bringing this up.
Stop, Haimer time! LOL I pressed like immediately hahaha
Oh, now i get it
Any more info or sources for the polymer concrete?
taster? How does the raw stock taste?
A Haimer in the ATC? Do you youse it in the middle of your program where the ATC is needed?
I worked in 3 machineshops so far and everybody there had his Haimer in the toolrack infront of the machine.
Calibration surface, maybe start with getting to the aluminium in a DVD and measure the pits ? ( the AFM party trick)..to big ?...or some type of ceramic, perhaps glass ?...a bit off topic, I would like to see you build a "kelvin probe" or an actual AFM or perhaps an STM ?...oh i love these types analytical equipment and I would have thought right up your street.....great video...cheers!
Thanks for making the mistakes, so I won't. Like, trying to build a CNC machine... LOL
ALWAYS simulate your Cam programs in fusion 360. The single operations don't check for chrashes when generating
Thanks for the great videos!
you can get Surface Roughness Comparator Gage set from ebay for less than $50