West Wing - Bartlett mocks Hoynes
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- From Season 1, Episode 8 ("Enemies")
Bartlett arrives late to a cabinet meeting, and ends up mocking and humiliating Hoynes. Funny to watch, but I also thought one of the less commendable aspects of Bartlett's character.
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And thus was born the great feud between Hoynes and Mildred that defined 3 seasons!
I can't believe they actually got into an all out fistfight on the show right in the middle of the Oval Office! The show was awesome, and I was amazed they had the audacity to write in an actual physical brawl between Midred and Hoynes that lasted a full 20 minutes. I can't believe they had it end with one of them stabbing the other to death though!
Hoynes never had a chance. Mildred would make mincemeat out of him.
@@TheGrandmaster1 Well, with Tarantino running the show, what did we expect, really!
it took me out when Hoynes announced that the earth was going to explode in 5 minutes, but then the fight with Mildred went on for 3 hours.
it was too much man!
@@tokyworld Yeah but the Super-Mildred reveal after all that build up made it all worth it.
John Hoynes was a wonderful character - his human weaknesses robbing him of greatness. The relationship between himself and Bartlett was fascinating
They never gave his character due credit in favour of propping up Leo Mcgarry. We all know in reality the VP is very important in the WH, he is many times the chief counsellor to the president on domestic and foreign affairs. We never saw Hoynes and Bartlet discussing and resolving serious issues, one of my many criticisms of the show. Sorkin wrote the VP as a separate entity he never was part of senior staff meetings, many times Bartlet inner circle treated him like an enemy, nor was he consulted on any policy issues, or had any relevance in the Bartlett presidency with even Bartlet questioning the relevance of VP. Hoynes was a much better character than the deplorable Bingo Bob.
This is your fantasy Liberals . Trump is your master and your reality MAGA! TRUMP 2020!! You worship his balls and his sperm
Don't drink it all, @@arizonajoe1608
@@arizonajoe1608 he is a one term President at best. If he makes it that long. Lol and I personally can't ant wait til his no president acting ass is out of office. That's my liberal fantasy. Oh by the way I'm a Republican.
President Bartlett.
"You shouldn't have made me beg." - Bartlett
This is one of the few moments where Bartlett is an asshole, if Hoynes is your number 2 guy then treat him like it. If you need to dress him down, do so privately. I thought it was weird that the writers did that because it was so out of character.
Leadership 101: Praise in public reprimand in private.
Praise in public, reprimand in private, yes. But if you've already done that, and the person is speaking in your name without your authorization (as Hoynes does here), you need to let everyone know very quickly that they are NOT telling the truth. It clarifies things to the rest of the audience, and any orders given by that person better be double-checked.
Is it undercutting the VP? Yep. And he deserved it, too. You cannot let a loose cannon roll around.
When your underling tries to usurp your authority, you make sure everyone knows he is wrong, and you make sure he never tries it again.
@@johnmcgowan2348 So speaks someone who never has been a leader
It's 100% in character
They're riff comes down to this:
*"After I had the votes, I came to you John, I asked you to serve, I asked you to be my Vice President, and you made me beg, you knew I needed you, and you made me beg"*
*Their
@@xChemistryFTWx don't be that guy... nobody likes that guy
@@craigieboy123 I do.
*rift
@@craigieboy123 That guy is necessary. Let's remember that this fictional president was pedantic. Four corners of the globe? A globe doesn't have corners. Something is unique or it is not. There are not degrees of unique.
Bartlet lowered to this because of (what we later find out to be) Hoynes' weakening Bartlet by stalling to accept the VP spot on the Democratic ticket when they were elected. Bartlet needed a conservative Democrat to balance out his liberalism, Hoynes knew this and made Bartlet beg. I agree, it's not exactly the high ground, but it puts this in context a bit.
Hi, John Hoynes, Vice President. Damn glad to meet you.
Well played. I got the reference. :)
Sorry, Ladco77. Say what you will about John Hoynes, but I’m not going to stay here and listen to you badmouth the United States Of America! Gentlemen!
@@robertbruce8492 That was John Hoynes, Vice President. He's damn glad to meet you.
Ladco77 Josh, following along behind. “That was John Hoynes, Country Vice-President. He was damn glad to meet you.”
I wonder if he ever did that on set.
Bartlett shows respect for everyone in the room, even those he doesn't know... But he shows no respect whatsoever to Hoynes.
I think this shows a lot about his character - He is willing to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and treat them as good people until they prove to him that they are not. Once you lose Bartlett's respect, it doesn't come back.
Tim Mathewson is also quite the director. I particularly enjoyed some of his Psych episodes.
I feel that Bartlett is a great presidential character. Hes a fantastic decision maker, a great thinker, great strategist, and really cares about the people. But no man is perfect, and I'm glad they showed he wasn't always right. Regardless of his history with the VP, acting like a jerk here was out of line. Never do that to your backup in front of a crowd. It made Barlett a little more human to me.
Great thinker idk
Nonsense. when an underling needs to put his place, do it fast, hard and in public. That way, it never happens again.
@@mja91352 weird take. Most people in Hoynes position here would be furious enough to begin plotting against you. Public humiliation is a literal last resort when you've already lost control, not something you do to an existing underling who isn't actively disloyal.
@@mja91352 says the internet warrior.......
@@mja91352 embarrassing you subordinates in front of their colleagues always work. I’m sure you’d make a great leader…
Otter is Vice President of the U.S.A.?! I'd be damn glad to meet him!
He never could have gotten the job without some major pull from his old pal, Senator Blutarsky.
This is the vice president, and he's damn glad to meet ya....
Hoynes is pre-law, errr, pre-med.
what's the difference?
Wtf, you can't go mocking your VP and ally like that. I know the reason behind their friction, but this is still uncalled for. Hoynes was always pretty respectful to Bartlett.
I love Bartlet...but he's a total dick half the time :P
@@jerodast He shall from time to time, be a dick with the VP
Except this whole scene is Hoynes *not* being respectful to Bartlet. It's him putting words in the president's mouth and making it seem that he speaks for him. The cabinet answers to Bartlet, not Hoynes and Hoynes should be mindful that any powers he has comes from what the President gives.
This was a very important lesson in leadership to Hoynes and Bartlet's cabinet: I am President. No one speaks for me unless I say otherwise.
So respect that he tried to hijack the President's authority?
Yeah, this is seven years later. I can't abide conflating courtesy with respect, though. Hoynes kept his public image courteous even as his disrespectful machinations proceeded. I've seen so much of this in real life that I have to point out how the duplicity fools people.
I think it was just a few episodes after Hoynes pulled his little stunt with the gun control bill. The president was mad (as most of us would've been), and was looking for a way to slap Hoynes around a little.
Taking the minutes by hand, hats off to that Lady because I would be having trouble typing let alone writing down what everyone is saying, a real under appreciated job
It is impressive! This watch through, it struck me as impressive if Jed could actually read shorthand, which she had to be using, when he read over her notes.
The official records act means that every formal discussion needs to be recorded. Any notes written, any orders given or conversations in an official capacity are written down and saved. Which is why if you declassify documents it doesn't happen without some sort of record of the conversation. Unless of course you violate the official records act as much as you defy every other federal law and precedence of the office.
Fair comment. Of course much of the tension from Hoyne's perspective owed a lot to the fact that he ought to have sewn up the Democratic nomination, but blew it (characterised by Josh abandoning his campaign for Bartlett's). I'm sure in his mind he hesitated to accept the VP spot on the ticket because he would end up playing second fiddle to a more liberal president that should never have gotten close to him in the nomination. Still, it's generally not like Bartlett to cling to grudges.
It's also because Bartlett hid his MS. If he'd disclosed it he never would've sniffed the nomination.
tfn105 It was a very early episode. I think they (Aaron Sorkin) had not fully formed what they (he) wanted all the relationships to be.
This one definitely sounds an off-key note in light of most of the rest of the first four years.
I don't think Hoynes is a git, though. Bartlett looks down on him for being a politician's politician, I think. But that doesn't make him a 'bad' man. I always thought what The West Wing did with Hoynes in the 5th/6th seasons was not in character (especially when they revealed he had been with CJ). In the Sorkin years, there are plenty of examples of Hoynes being a decent human being.
Every time one unnecessarily embarrasses someone, one lowers their own standards.
This is the greatest series ever and I suspend all belief while I'm watching it (repeatedly) and I immerse myself totally in the 'reality' of the relationships between the protagonists e.g. Hoynes - Bartlett. Totally brilliant.
Do you perhaps mean that you suspend all disbelief?
hoynes should have said the best way to serve the american people is for the executive branch to work hand in hand with legislative, whats your point mr president
exactly!!
The three branches of the federal government serve as a system of checks and balances. They aren't necessarily intended to work in cooperation with each other.
@@seanwebb605 - but it would help. the 'checks and balances' thing is one of dumbest things the so called 'founding fathers' came up with, leads to gridlock.
If Bartlett hadn't humiliated Hoynes in front of the entire Cabinet, Hoynes
wouldn't have outed Bartlett's MS to the news media. What goes around,
comes around, and payback is a bitch, Jed !
This scene doesn’t make sense. Why would Haynes begin the meeting only to have Bartlett show up 60 seconds later. Unless the president was expected to be delayed for a greater period of time.
His ego didn't allow him to waste an opportunity to advance his own agenda and career.
@@seanwebb605 - Bartlett was the one with the elitist ego problem
Mildred now feels like a badass.
The way he said "vegetable" makes me feel weird
Bartlett walks in and says ' Did we quit when the germans bombed pearl harbor'....
Bartlet was making a point....that as President of the USA, the cabinet meetings start when he gets there...not when the VP decides it should start--for whatever reason.
Adrian Howell except Hoynes says the president asked me to start it.
Actually President Bartlet wanted to keep Hoynes in his place.
Mildred clearly giving Hoynes the stink-eye in the final frame 😅
You don’t start a meeting without the POTUS in the room. Hoynes was over stepping his boundaries.
I mean.he did say the president wanted me to get things started
Hoynes should have said "yes sir. Ibelieve working with Congress is how we best serve the American people"
It might be crap, but it doesn't make him look like an idiot.
Great retort.
When you get caught off base, you already look like an idiot
Bartlett used something obvious (that the goal should be to serve the people of the US... duh) in lieu of the more practical goal (to work with Congress) to minimize his VP. Frankly, I don't have a problem with that. When I see Tim Matheson (the actor) I immediately think of his character from National Lampoon's Animal House arguing that John Belushi's character should be able to party as much as he wants to.
crimdell Good point. Love that film
This is your fantasy Liberals . Trump is your master and your reality MAGA! TRUMP 2020!! You worship his balls and his sperm
Leo walks in: "Toga, toga!"
I see what you did there. Lol
"You work for me, you hear me!"
I didn't really like this scene. It was out of character from Bartlett, who wasn't normally so snide.
When it comes to his entire relationship with Hoynes, it does make sense.
And Bartlett was right. A cabinet meeting starts when the President gets there, its not up to the VP to run.
Sometimes you need to remind people the hard way.
Ares99999 Hoynes says right at the beginning that the President is going to be late and asked me to get things started.
Bartlett's a poisonous, obnoxious bully in this scene. I was never a big fan of his, and this just reinforces that.
It's The President's Show, and it's his Cabinet. Until the 25th Amendment is Invoked, and then the VP runs The Show & can make Grandiose Speeches to his Inherited Cabinet, while Mildred takes the Minutes.
If my boss did that to me in a meeting with my peers, he'd have it coming.
They're not peers, the VP is elected, the Cabinet is appointed. They're below him even though they don't answer to him
Did they ever have a scene in the actual cabinet room? Or was it always in the Roosevelt room?
The Executive branch best serves the American people by working with Congress, who are the elected representatives of the American people.
So you remember something from civics class! Good for you!
I never cared for what they did with the Hoynes character. I didn't mind the tension between the two men, but Bartlett never seemed like the type who would do this sort of thing publicly unless he was disgusted (the evangelicals in the first episode, and the radio host lady later on). And, if they were going to have him act out in this manner, there should have been more moments of humility, or at least shame. Hoynes was a much more more interesting character than what we got, and the creators never really took advantage of that. There could have been, or should have been, more moments between he and Bartlett. His career ending scandal (sleeping with CJ) I never bought for a moment. It screamed plot-device and not organic to the overall development of either character. All in all, a missed opportunity that proves to be one of the weaker aspects of the show - a show that is still absolutely incredible, so I'm still a big fan.
I think the executive branch working in conjunction with the legislative brance *is* best serving the American people. You don't always have to agree or always find bipartisan solutions, but putting in an effort to do so would be appreciated by a great many americans, rather than the constant gridlock we see today (or indeed saw in the later seasons of this fictional universe).
Agonizing experience for Mildred.
It's actually eerie how cool she is, staring right at Hoynes while POTUS uses her notes to mock him!
The most important way for the executive branch to serve the american people is by working in cooperation with the legistlative branch. And vice versa. A very smug and nonsensical way to mock your own VP.
And how many organizations, let alone countries, have YOU led?
@@mja91352 yeah, cause the guys doing it right now are doin such a stand-up job.
You do know that's a fictional show right?
That woman must write really fast to be able to get what all those people are talking non stop.
ALSPEHEIR She's probably writing shorthand.
Question:
Is it your opinion...
1. The VP is being realistic as campaign slogans are great for campaigns, but if there is to be any legislation doing we need to work with Congress to find mutual goals
Or
2. Congress legislates and we either agree or disagree, but our goal is to enforce-the executive branch-and enforce it to the best extent we can for the American people.
The VP doesn't preside over cabinet meetings. He has now been reminded of that. Not a co-presidency.
no, now she feels like 'don't put me in this ish'
@alamocityguy85 The Electoral College is a body whose members are chosen by the States for the express purpose of manifesting each State's will as to who should be President. It is a mechanism, not a standing body.
@jesusthroughmary Of course, the converse is just as true, and the President is no less an elected representative of the American people than Congress, though that election is slightly more indirect.
Bartlett always struck me as an elitist who looked down at everyone who didn't think like him or come from his pedigree. He always said otherwise but let's face it he treated both his VPs like trash. Hoynes more so because he knew he needed him.
The thing is, however, was that Bartlett showed himself to be a very good president, better than Hoynes would have been (which is pretty much why Josh left - Hoynes was more polished, but Bartlett, although a rougher gem, had more of the 'thing' that made one a great leader). I have a feeling that these two men had a lot of disdain for one another, episodes show several hints of that from each of them. And if this moment might have shown Bartlett's disdain a bit, it made him a better character.
Who said I'd get angry? I said he'd have it coming. And anyway, I'm probably from a different working culture than most people here - managing by authority isn't very well received where I'm from, and we... how shall I put it... don't mind giving our boss / manager "constructive feedback".
Stop patronalizing us here. Does not work. Where you come from you also poo same way. Imbecile
Stop patronalizing us here. Does not work. Where you come from you also poo In the same way. Imbecile
@timmyhkvt False. The converse is not just as true. The States elect the President, not the people, and that is not mere semantics. The Federal government exists primarily to mediate the competing interests of the States.
Working with Congress is a sure way to best serve the American People.
@jesusthroughmary Not according to the Constitution! Look at the preamble: establish justice, provide for the common defense, ensure the general welfare, etc. The federal government exists to run the country in general, not be a maid to pick up after the states. And by the way, Congress is just as much the federal government as the President is.
I don't feel like he was TRYING to mock and humiliate Hoynes, I thought he was trying to playfully tease Hoynes, while at the same time trying to nudge him in the right direction. Maybe thats just me
It's just you.
If I was Mildred I'd be bare happy
Support in public. Reprove in private.
If Hoynes is a git, and he really is, then it wasn't unnecessary to make sure he knew he was a second-rate screw-up with delusions of grandeur... which he was.
I'd have been worse - and have been worse - with guys like that. Idiots deserve to be treated like idiots.
Petty and uncalled for.
Bartlett all over
Hoynes should have said to Bartlett, "Sir, we live in a constitutional republic, and we cannot make laws to better serve the American people without the support of Congress."
The thing is that the vice president is one shot away from your position. He has to be ready and you have to trust him with it. The relationship they had was abysmal.
Which is to say, typical. The VP is usually there like Banquo’s Ghost, hopefully useless except to attend foreign funerals and celebrations of the creation of the Persian Empire (Agnew’s big diplomatic get-together at the behest of the Shah).
Man this is difficult to watch. I don't even remember the context for this scene, but it feels out of character for Jed Bartlett.
Mildred failed to take notes of that entire exchange. Not good.
Booyah!
I'm a big Bartlet fan but this event to diss Hoynes although he's a prick in his own was unnecessary
Man who hid his MS from American ppl talks of serving people is a joke
Also Congress is a representative of people even better than the electoral college representatives who elect president
Hoynes was trying to be self important and suggest that it was a co presidency or that he was second in command. It was very common until recent years for the vice president to be kept at a distance from the presidency.
@@seanwebb605 yeah that's there ,
Depends on the ability of running mate
In hindsight, after watching the first three seasons, I think Bartlet was a dick in this scene. The American people voted for Congress. That's what the United States is: a representative democracy. Granted that gerrymandering has rendered representation convoluted especially after the real-life 2004 presidential election. Still, in 1999, Congress and the American people were more aligned then.
Three separate yet equal branches of the federal government. Executive, judicial and legislative. The Vice President does not preside over cabinet meetings. The role of the executive branch is not to please the legislative branch.
Everyone around you has tuned you out, and that is why you are posting, right?
That's it? Thats mild teasing and perhaps a bit of chiding here. He was hardly mocking.
As for humiliating, if Hoynes can't get over one moment of embarassment, he should get help. Most jobs have far more frustrating moments.
Well, Hoynes deserved it. I think Bartlett was extremely mild given Hoyne's general stupidity.
It's really funny(strange) how shows like this and "Cops", Lawyer shows and Courtroom dramas, portray just the opposite feelings and motivations that the "Real Deal" does in real life! A) We have a Corporate Government who works for the United Nations and back in 1933 under the Bankruptcy Act under Title 50, placed us(John Q. Public) under the "Trading with the Enemy Act" of 1917!!! B) And our whole Justice System has NO Criminal Jurisdiction, No LAWFUL authority to arrest us and imprison us! C) All Law enforcement have NO LAWFUL authority and are classified by Supreme Court Case rulings as "Private Contractors". D) Under 36 U.S.Codes Chapter 70502B The Federal BAR Association- No lawyer can represent anyone but the United States Government ONLY! Its in their rules,it's in their laws!!!! You think these shows are to make you think they are on your side and for the American People...hahahaha..what a joke!! Side note; the American Court system has a 98% conviction rate! So you tell me, are they on our side?
B) And our whole Justice System has NO Criminal Jurisdiction, No LAWFUL authority to arrest us and imprison us!
Actually, the inclusion of the term "Habeas Corpus" in the Constitution provides for that.
36 U.S. Code - Purposes: § 70502(B) "to uphold high standards for the Federal judiciary and attorneys representing the United States Government"
Stop misquoting!
Obama v. Biden???
Obama included Biden in all sorts of discussions and meetings. He allowed Biden to take charge on several issues. And he allowed Biden to have an office in the White House. Until Dick Cheney the Vice President was largely separate and worked out of the senate. It was a major advancement for the vice presidency when Ronald Reagan agreed to have weekly lunch meetings with his vice president George Bush. Of course Bush was an establishment Republican and Reagan needed to shore up support from those who had institutional knowledge. Reagan was a little weak on how the party and democracy worked.
@@seanwebb605 Indeed Obama need to keep Biden on a short leash for good reason..."“Don’t underestimate Joe’s ability to f**k things up.” (B. Obama)
@@seanwebb605 - Biden took charge of zero. he was just there with his dementia sadly starting to roll. Obama wanted to keep an eye on him.
@@marcokite I came back to remind myself what a sad and pathetic person you are. Cry a little more.