My personal feeling is that it's hard for a lot of people to consider if Soulkey is truly a bonjwa when Flash left a dominance vacuum in his absence. If Flash were to return and Soulkey STILL dominated then I think a lot more people would be willing to give him the bonjwa status. But it's hard to say for certain when the Flash factor is up in the air.
The scene is just different too. Part of what made a lot of the bonjwas bonjwas is that they were dominant during times of when the scene was at its healthiest. Therefore there were always a nice influx of new players that were hungry. That just doesn't exist now with the same amount of volume. Edit: And as I say that, Arty touches on that himself.
He plays outstanding games when it matters. He shines most in ASL when he plays the same opponent multiple times, makes adjustments when needed, and just makes it look easy
giving soulkey the status of bonjwa would help the sc storytelling. i bet even more people would tune in and watch ssl. so from this point of view its stupid not making him a bonjwa, at least for remastered era.
Soulkey might be the smartest player we have seen touch the game. Even with SC2 he is top 3 easily. sOs is the only other guy i can think of, but he basically a alien too so hard to judge. The reason you have to wait to give him the Bonjwa title is because if Flash comes back and crushes him, he was not a bonjwa but rather one with success in the absence of the stronger player.
Soulkey has the ability to consistently identify the weakness of each opponent's strategy on each map before the match even starts. That is what makes him the greatest at the moment.
Its too bad that there's only really KCM as an additional venue for players to show off their skills. Proleague was an absolutely great way for the old bonjwas to display their dominance in front of a huge audience. If you could dominate in a BO1 environment AND the traditional tournament environment, there really was no question about who was the best.
Another metric for Bonjwa is the influence a player has on their race that creates a new paradigm for the game. The ZvT last season where he went crazy zerg against either JyJ or Light made me feel actual fear.
@@sachib 1,5 years is simply barely long enough nowadays. I believe if he wins another 2-3 in a row, they will name him bonjwa and he goes on the same list as the others. Pre/Post Kespa whatever. But not yet.
IMO yes he is. 3 ASL's in a row speaks for itself. People trying to say it's only cause Flash left forget that great players always leave games and create vacuums- he has been the consensus best player by a wide margin since Flash left and dominated pretty much everyone.
yeah, my issue with the "well flash left so it doesn't count" argument is some of those bonjwas were given bonjwa status before Flash even existed in the scene. Do their bonjwa statuses also not count since they didn't have to play against Flash? Also there's always a revolving door of good players leaving and entering the scene. No matter when you play, there's always going to be some great players who quit the game in the prior few years. To me this feels like primacy bias (the inverse of recency bias).
imo, it will take something Soulkey smashing flash in an SSL bo5 / bo7 and then going on to win it, within the next year, to get bonjwa (or bonjwa 2.0 if you prefer) status that is the actual last barrier. Obviously no sane person contests how much better he is than the competition right now, but he needs to do this exact final step.
A bit of fyi SC history: after bisu's win over savior in 2007 the korean scene considers that the end of the bonjwa era and start of the TaekBangLeeSsang era TBLS era is an time where no one player could maintain there dominance for over a year and 4 dominant players (bisu stork jd flash) took turns taking the crown. Fans of each players were keen to claim their fav players as the new bonjwa but whenever it nearly became true another player took the dominance and so on TBLS era lasted until end of 2011 start of 2012 where Jangbi & Fantasy started to rival these players' skills (although short lived due to the end of kespa brood war leagues). Flash was actually considered bonjwa after the end of Broodwar leagues and was called a God rather than bonjwa (partly due to protest from other top player fans) then after his return to Afreeca and long dominance in ASL (while all of his rivals' fell from their glory days) is when everyone had to admit that he was infact worthy to be bonjwa Soulkey's dominance is definately true these days but i guess many in the korean scene feels the level of competition and motivation of other players cant compare to the kespa era as well as the fact the economics and current system don't align for new talent to come in to challenge the old gamers (most top players nowadays are in their mid 30s) Like arty said if soulkey manages to maintain this dominance for another few SSLs or another year he will def be in the conversation Especially with Flash back on the scene an iconic win over Flash (despite him being not as good as before) will defs make a lot of fans consider him for the next bonjwa title
Interesting debate. They used to give players a lot of nicknames (Commentator Mr. Eom from OSL was good at that kind of thing) back in the day. For instance one of Savior's nicknames was Ma-bonjwa. They still kinda do that, but dunno if the exact terminology 'bonjwa' will be used.
Even though SK didn’t go up against the best Terran in the finals he still beat what are considered some of the best Terrans next to Flash in the ro16 vs Rush and in the ro8 vs Light. Both of which could have made it to the finals.
There needs to be a separate category for the Afreeca/Post-KeSPA era, the eras are not really comparable. And if there were this new category, I think we would more easily agree that SoulKey would be the first bonjwa of the Post-KeSPA scene
you'd have to separate it even more than that if we're going to start playing that game. Flash's era vs. the early days (iloveoov etc.) it's basically a completely different game
@@EB-bl6cc indeed even in the old KESPA times the Korean scene already did. They called Flash "God" instead of bonjwa, and it was the unanimous consensus that he stood above the rest as the greatest of all time even back then 10 years ago
I would say that if Soulkey wins 2 of the 3 next ASLs, he will get the bonjwa status for sure. The way he plays the game is on another level and keeping the game even more fun to watch.
2 more SSL wins and he is a bonjwa. I know people practiced way more back in the day and dominating was probably harder but StarCraft 1 is still crazy competitive. Players play their ass off for years and years just to get into SSL and fail and this guy wins 3 in a row. 5 wins, doesn’t even have to be in a row if he is knocked out in one final in an honourable way is enough especially with Flash back.
he wouldve been but flash happened to be rising right as JD was hitting his peak. there was a time where it was OSL/MSL final again and again jd vs flash, jd won like the first 2 then flash beat him 3 or 4 times in a row. it was brutal to watch as a JD fan. and each time it got worse.
@@ssv-y2qsrsly?? JD dominated so hard in that era no one close to challenge him.. and he IS considered to be a bonjwa. I think TL got the information wrong.
Iloveoov had a brief moment of dominance. Boxer was very volatile and oscilated between no1 and no18. In comparison, NaDa was top3 for a decade. So NaDa, SaviOr, and Flash.
Boxer made watching BW absolute fun. He was trying gimmicks that would be completely unsound today, but worked somehow back then. Boxer had his dominance, but his bonjwa status is more about how the game's popularity exploded because of him and brought investors that made the pro scene sustainable for 15 years. He also did this in the early days of SC2 until more sound mechanical play developed. Basically, in Chess terms, Boxer was using King's Gambit or Latvian Gambit and winning before players wised up.
This is a good post. For me it's weird that those 5 are all considered bonjwas when their dominance has such a wide range. Like iloveoov's dominance compared to Flash or NaDa's dominance is laughably small
yeah I definitely think everyone wants this at this point. Soulkey is too good, we need someone that at least has a chance of beating him even if Flash isn't in absolute 100% peak form. No one wants to see a 4th season in a row with Soulkey just effortlessly demolishing everyone
I like the idea of having a different list, a "Bonjwa 2.0", which would only have Flash (who remained incredibly dominant in the modern era of SC) and would include Soulkey if he wins one of the next 2 ASLs.
I think history might repeat itselff with SK achieving bonjwa retroactively after his streak comes to an end similiar to previous bonjwa title holders. There hasnt really been a need to name a new bonjwa in the modern ASL era, so I think there is some resistance to it fow now.
@@michaelbird9148 i think about it in three eras. The pre-flash era, the Flash era and the post-flash era. Maybe soon four eras if i have to add the "flash rerurns"-era.
This argument from the Korean scene is correct and also is why Serral is not the GOAT of sc2. When you rise to dominance after all the top players have retired, you're in a different category. Soulkey is absolutely amazing though and if there was a HoF of SC he would be in it.
I think the argument makes sense but I don't think it's quite that simple, you have to consider how good they are, period (granted, it's very hard to tell 100% accurately, but I think you have to try, in the spirit of fairness). Soulkey is so good right now that (imo) his skill would hold up even if all the big names were still playing. Flash being the only one who would have a chance in a Bo7.
i think crowning him "most dominant player of his era" doesnt make much sense when that domination happened during flashs military service i dont think its fair to say that the flash era ended when it had nothing to with him falling off or quiting, he dominated and had to leave for a while essentially, we really have to see flash vs soulkey in SSL
There sre more exciting terean players that have come and gone like fantasy, piano, others I have forgotten to mention. Speed is one. You cannot always win and look amateur, that is the greatness of these players, they provide entertainment value through having ups and downs.
I think Soulkey's rise has been kind of baffling in how suddenly he pulled ahead. Like if Snow had Soulkey's ASL success, no one would be surprised. Snow constantly shows good mechanics and has been a monster in Proleague for a while. But Soulkey was constantly tied with Hero and Queen as a top class Zerg contender. Then once Soulkey won ASL he just never stopped. He went from strong to unstoppable seemingly over night.
He was quoted to have bismal ZvT, then suddenly it seemed like he was free. You got to give to him, the streak until he started to win was the most consistent streak. You could see him reach Ro4 since what, ASL12? I forgot since when, but he had his moment whenever he was on the stage, Tasteless called him the most consistent zerg.
JD was smashing everyone. He played for the weakest team and usually all killed the opposing teams himself. He often crushed Flash too. He had over 70% winrate against zerg. Only people who dislike him as a person wouldn't give him the title. He's the most dominant player I've ever seen. Flash could just barely beat him sometimes.
On the Sharp thing... Even if Sharp isnt #1 terran, SK beat Light, Rush and JYJ in playoffs across the three wins and thats arguably the best 4 Terran rn, at least of 4 of the top 5/6.
Claiming someone is a "Bonjwa" when Flash isn't active is kind of weak tbh, I'm sure Soulkey himself wouldn't accept it. And let's not forget so many insane players just don't play or are banned, Last, Larva (because he's a dad ofc), Shinee (because he's banned, but has been for a long time), Effort, Rain is playing LoL (and even looks awkward when making RO4). It's not surprising the disrespect the Korean scene has for current Brood War, outside of Flash who is unparalleled. I think Soulkey is insane, don't get me wrong, and could be a Bonjwa if he had actual competition, but he doesn't, the skill level isn't there. I remember watching Flash vs Last games, now THAT is quality. We don't have that, we don't get that in ASL/SSL anymore, not for a few years.
I think you're underselling how competitive it is right now. Yeah no flash sucks, and he will always be the goat, but there's always been a revolving door of good players throughout the decades. In every era where there's been a bonjwa you could always say "yeah well X guy that was super good a few years ago stopped playing, so this guy's bonjwa status doesn't count"
I think Flash is considered best since no one could counter him when he played SK Terran and mech. Now, no terran is immune. Soulkey beats mech and JyJ doesn't play his signature SK Terran any more. Fantasy, Piano etc. there just aren't the same number of SK players and that shifts the overall balance in Soulkey's favour.
i've been watching bw since the beginning and i think players are slightly worse now than in the kespa era. it's hard to quantify decision making and strength of strategy, but mechanically, with micro and things like chance of missing things on minimap, awareness... is no question worse...and it shouldn't be surprising when they are practicing a tenth of the time they used to. you just see so many more mistakes now than in kespa era. in the kespa era if you saw a drop blip on the minimap you weren't really wondering if it was seen by the player, it was....it's just a lot sloppier now than it used to be and that's why I personally have a clear separation between kespa and post-kespa eras.
I'm guessing at your meaning, but modern players would destroy older players (at their peak) with their older meta on current maps. but if you mean older players (at their peak) with modern style or modern players on older style maps, thats different hypothetical.
@BinxyBrown Kespa era definitely had way more pro players. There were usually around 12 Kespa teams competing each with 10-20 main team players with probably the same amount of practice partners/ B team players. So 200+ pro players competing in MSL/OSL/Proleague tournaments year-round
@@Shield_Battery I meant to compare mostly the amount of players. If there were more professional players in the Kespa era, being a bonjwa might feel harder to obtain since you have to convince more people of your elite of the elite status.
Yeah not sure what we're even talking about if he won three more and wasn't considered a bonjwa by the Korean scene. That would just mean they retired the word and consider it to only apply to Kespa era. By any sense of how the word was used in the past, he would be one.
@@gskills55 It's just a random Korean term, people give too much credit to it. How are Bisu and Jaedong not considered Bonjwas with how dominant they were? Bisu literally humiliated the previous Bonjwa and Jaedong was on par with the current Bonjwa of his time. It's a term that makes no sense at all.
@@ahejleira5654 bisu and jaedong were not far enough ahead of everyone else for long enough to be considered bonjwa. Jaedong always had Flash there and Bisu always had Stork, Jaedong, etc.
@@gskills55 And Flash always had Jaedong. Boxer, Nada and Iloveoov never were 'far enough ahead for long enough'. Under that definition the only Bonjwa in history would have been Savior. Koreans often call Bonjwa to any player that is performing well, not just those 5. Again, this is just giving too much importance to some arbitrary thing someone put on the internet.
@@ahejleira5654 yeah i just disagree. there are 5 players labeled as bonjwas, as agreed upon by the Korean scene. they might also use the term bonjwa more casually for other players but that just means there are two uses of the word. there are concrete reasons for why those 5 players are considered bonjwas that are based on ELO, Kespa ranking, tournament results, matchup win percentages, and match records. You can argue a bunch of stuff, and I acknowledge that there are good arguments as to why maybe a couple of those 5 shouldn't be bonjwa and Jaedong should be (and only Jaedong, there's no one else that should be considered). But at the end of the day the arguments for why it is the way it is are simple. The argument that only Savior could be considered a bonjwa is completely narrative-based. there's no data or results-based argument you can make here that doesn't also include Nada and Flash. iloveoov had an extremely short tenure but this is made up for by the fact of how far ahead of everyone and untouchable he was for that short period of time. When Jaedong was the best player (mid 2007-early 2009), Flash was always right behind him. And when Jaedong achieved the most results and was at HIS best (mid 2008-late 2009), Flash was arguably better than him. Flash wasn't a bonjwa until 2010, when Jaedong, Bisu, and Stork all dropped off a bit and Flash was clearly above the pack. So no, Flash didn't always have Jaedong.
It’s very unfair if the man wins 6 seasons in a row and just then gets considered. I like the idea of a new term but to the younger generation somewhere along the lines of winning 4 across even 6 season WILL give it up and give him some glory that sets the nostalgia aside. Eventually the majority will be the younger generation and consensus will grow.
"a bonjwa has a very high winning percentage and successive title wins ... however a bonjwa is not defined by his statistics or records" excuse me, but what the fuck?
Progamers now are stronger just because meta evolved. Themselve are getting worse. Although he finally seems to have come to his perfection, our sad bonjwa doesn't have adequate enemies to prove himself a real one.
I'm unsure of how long the others have dominated relative to Soulkey (so far in the video) but I think the eye test is important in any goat debate and Soulkey does look damn near unstoppable rn.
If you wont call serral a bonjwa soulkey is nowhere close. serral won every final for 5 years and all korean pros call him the best. but you call rouge best lol, no soulkey is not bonjwa for winning a few things in a row.
If Flash returns next season, and SoulKey wins the tournsments while actually playing and winning over Flash (at any stage) I think he should be seriously considered for the title. While he "only" beat Sharp in his Terran final, he killed Light in the Ro4/8 before that as well.
I think people want passing of the torch through same bouts, however times change. You cannot mistake Soulkey's title bouts with JyJ to be something else. JyJ was his kryptonite.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
Artiosis is true bonjwa. His passion is keeping the scene alive for new generation of viewers
Honorary bonjwa
Conceptual Bonjwa
Caster-Bonjwa
Father bonjah
Bonjwa of the hearts
"You are a dominant player, but we do not grant you the rank of Bonjwa"
This is outrageous! It’s unfair! How can you win 3 ASLs in a row and not be a Bonjwa?
@@dzstoyanovanger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering!!
no jaedong or bisu either
@@thebigbucktheory5488 They are among the best though. Bonjwa is an overrated title.
Surely, the creator of "Crazy Zerg" and "Hard Counter" deserves bonjwa status...
he's the dominant mario erotica conniseur of the foreigner scene...
Who's "SK Terran" named after, again?
@@BenjaminGlatt SKartosis
And don't forget about the "Artosis pylon"!
@@BenjaminGlatt Super Kool Terran
describing Sharp as "a terran" makes Artosis the bonjwa of SC roasts
My personal feeling is that it's hard for a lot of people to consider if Soulkey is truly a bonjwa when Flash left a dominance vacuum in his absence. If Flash were to return and Soulkey STILL dominated then I think a lot more people would be willing to give him the bonjwa status. But it's hard to say for certain when the Flash factor is up in the air.
Yeah you can’t have two bonjwas at once. Gotta have flash and soulkey play a Bo9 on artosis casts to decide.
The scene is just different too. Part of what made a lot of the bonjwas bonjwas is that they were dominant during times of when the scene was at its healthiest. Therefore there were always a nice influx of new players that were hungry. That just doesn't exist now with the same amount of volume.
Edit: And as I say that, Arty touches on that himself.
I would consider Soulkey a bonjwa. He's also won a KSL as well.
While Sharp may not be the best terran in the modern era, I think that he played the best in that SSL out of all the terrans.
He also absolutely obliterated Light as well. The way he did it honestly looked imbalanced, wasn't even a fight
It’s obvious. If he can Kingslay flash upon his return he’s a bonjwa.
He plays outstanding games when it matters. He shines most in ASL when he plays the same opponent multiple times, makes adjustments when needed, and just makes it look easy
giving soulkey the status of bonjwa would help the sc storytelling. i bet even more people would tune in and watch ssl. so from this point of view its stupid not making him a bonjwa, at least for remastered era.
HE DEFINITELY IS
Literally the second i sit on the tolet. Thanks Arty!
Soulkey might be the smartest player we have seen touch the game. Even with SC2 he is top 3 easily. sOs is the only other guy i can think of, but he basically a alien too so hard to judge.
The reason you have to wait to give him the Bonjwa title is because if Flash comes back and crushes him, he was not a bonjwa but rather one with success in the absence of the stronger player.
Nada by a mile, then Bisu
Soulkey has the ability to consistently identify the weakness of each opponent's strategy on each map before the match even starts.
That is what makes him the greatest at the moment.
Its too bad that there's only really KCM as an additional venue for players to show off their skills.
Proleague was an absolutely great way for the old bonjwas to display their dominance in front of a huge audience. If you could dominate in a BO1 environment AND the traditional tournament environment, there really was no question about who was the best.
Can you do a video on StarCraft status titles? Goat, bonjwa, golden mouse, six dragons, etc
It hasn't been long enough. If he does this for another year, yes, unquestionably.
Another metric for Bonjwa is the influence a player has on their race that creates a new paradigm for the game. The ZvT last season where he went crazy zerg against either JyJ or Light made me feel actual fear.
Yeah, how he guessed mech was also 100% risking it.
I think soulkey hasn't done enough to be bonjwa yet
@@sachib 1,5 years is simply barely long enough nowadays. I believe if he wins another 2-3 in a row, they will name him bonjwa and he goes on the same list as the others. Pre/Post Kespa whatever. But not yet.
IMO yes he is. 3 ASL's in a row speaks for itself. People trying to say it's only cause Flash left forget that great players always leave games and create vacuums- he has been the consensus best player by a wide margin since Flash left and dominated pretty much everyone.
yeah, my issue with the "well flash left so it doesn't count" argument is some of those bonjwas were given bonjwa status before Flash even existed in the scene. Do their bonjwa statuses also not count since they didn't have to play against Flash? Also there's always a revolving door of good players leaving and entering the scene. No matter when you play, there's always going to be some great players who quit the game in the prior few years. To me this feels like primacy bias (the inverse of recency bias).
imo, it will take something Soulkey smashing flash in an SSL bo5 / bo7 and then going on to win it, within the next year, to get bonjwa (or bonjwa 2.0 if you prefer) status
that is the actual last barrier. Obviously no sane person contests how much better he is than the competition right now, but he needs to do this exact final step.
I think effort had a bigger rise to stardom. Bonjwa is like that, the giants whose shoulders you are standing define you.
A bit of fyi SC history: after bisu's win over savior in 2007 the korean scene considers that the end of the bonjwa era and start of the TaekBangLeeSsang era
TBLS era is an time where no one player could maintain there dominance for over a year and 4 dominant players (bisu stork jd flash) took turns taking the crown.
Fans of each players were keen to claim their fav players as the new bonjwa but whenever it nearly became true another player took the dominance and so on
TBLS era lasted until end of 2011 start of 2012 where Jangbi & Fantasy started to rival these players' skills (although short lived due to the end of kespa brood war leagues).
Flash was actually considered bonjwa after the end of Broodwar leagues and was called a God rather than bonjwa (partly due to protest from other top player fans)
then after his return to Afreeca and long dominance in ASL (while all of his rivals' fell from their glory days) is when everyone had to admit that he was infact worthy to be bonjwa
Soulkey's dominance is definately true these days but i guess many in the korean scene feels the level of competition and motivation of other players cant compare to the kespa era as well as the fact the economics and current system don't align for new talent to come in to challenge the old gamers (most top players nowadays are in their mid 30s) Like arty said if soulkey manages to maintain this dominance for another few SSLs or another year he will def be in the conversation
Especially with Flash back on the scene an iconic win over Flash (despite him being not as good as before) will defs make a lot of fans consider him for the next bonjwa title
bonjwa from France!
Soulkey also won a KSL! Why don’t people mention this?
Interesting debate. They used to give players a lot of nicknames (Commentator Mr. Eom from OSL was good at that kind of thing) back in the day. For instance one of Savior's nicknames was Ma-bonjwa.
They still kinda do that, but dunno if the exact terminology 'bonjwa' will be used.
Even though SK didn’t go up against the best Terran in the finals he still beat what are considered some of the best Terrans next to Flash in the ro16 vs Rush and in the ro8 vs Light. Both of which could have made it to the finals.
His loss streak vs JyJ is the most amazing set of games in my opinion.
There needs to be a separate category for the Afreeca/Post-KeSPA era, the eras are not really comparable.
And if there were this new category, I think we would more easily agree that SoulKey would be the first bonjwa of the Post-KeSPA scene
Flash, would be the first Post-kespa Era Bonjwa (again), but I get what you mean.
@@Shield_Battery that is actually really cool
you'd have to separate it even more than that if we're going to start playing that game. Flash's era vs. the early days (iloveoov etc.) it's basically a completely different game
@@EB-bl6cc indeed even in the old KESPA times the Korean scene already did. They called Flash "God" instead of bonjwa, and it was the unanimous consensus that he stood above the rest as the greatest of all time even back then 10 years ago
I think Slayers Boxer is the only bonjwa. He really set the stage for others and defined Terran mirrors that has not been changed still.
Artosis is Bonjwa. In future, everyone will ask "If X is Artosis?".
I would say that if Soulkey wins 2 of the 3 next ASLs, he will get the bonjwa status for sure. The way he plays the game is on another level and keeping the game even more fun to watch.
You cannot not see the overwhelming terran y majority on that list.
To me Terran was always op
protoss is for noobs and if you play the noob race you cant be bonjwa
It's so weird that no one wants to win money by playing Protoss. It's so easy.
2 more SSL wins and he is a bonjwa. I know people practiced way more back in the day and dominating was probably harder but StarCraft 1 is still crazy competitive. Players play their ass off for years and years just to get into SSL and fail and this guy wins 3 in a row. 5 wins, doesn’t even have to be in a row if he is knocked out in one final in an honourable way is enough especially with Flash back.
I think that the more times i heard this word said, the more it started to sound like bonechewer.
TIL JD isn't a bonjwa
He was never clearly the best and dominating for a long time
he wouldve been but flash happened to be rising right as JD was hitting his peak. there was a time where it was OSL/MSL final again and again jd vs flash, jd won like the first 2 then flash beat him 3 or 4 times in a row. it was brutal to watch as a JD fan. and each time it got worse.
@@ssv-y2qsrsly?? JD dominated so hard in that era no one close to challenge him.. and he IS considered to be a bonjwa. I think TL got the information wrong.
@@kevinhou5774 From what i know, most people don't consider jd a bonjwa
@@ssv-y2q Stork Ruined JDs shot at getting titled, just like JD ruined Bisu's =)
Iloveoov had a brief moment of dominance. Boxer was very volatile and oscilated between no1 and no18. In comparison, NaDa was top3 for a decade.
So NaDa, SaviOr, and Flash.
Boxer made watching BW absolute fun. He was trying gimmicks that would be completely unsound today, but worked somehow back then. Boxer had his dominance, but his bonjwa status is more about how the game's popularity exploded because of him and brought investors that made the pro scene sustainable for 15 years. He also did this in the early days of SC2 until more sound mechanical play developed. Basically, in Chess terms, Boxer was using King's Gambit or Latvian Gambit and winning before players wised up.
This is a good post. For me it's weird that those 5 are all considered bonjwas when their dominance has such a wide range. Like iloveoov's dominance compared to Flash or NaDa's dominance is laughably small
Q: is Soulkey a BONJWA?
A: No
he is on his way to becoming one
I hope Flash starts this season again so things spice up a bit.
Fr, he needs to stop crypto scamming and start training
yeah I definitely think everyone wants this at this point. Soulkey is too good, we need someone that at least has a chance of beating him even if Flash isn't in absolute 100% peak form. No one wants to see a 4th season in a row with Soulkey just effortlessly demolishing everyone
I think Flash started playing lousy just like Queen that is out of the ordinary for their yester years.
People will say he was when he’s no longer as Dominant
I think SK's probably the most underrated player of all time. Pretending he's not a bonjwa is getting silly pretty fast
If he wins 1 more major league, I think he ties it with Flash for the longest streak, 4.
Bisu is the most underrated and theres not a close second
I'm willing to say yes.
I got it! New term for modern era bonjwa! Dongjwa!
I like the idea of having a different list, a "Bonjwa 2.0", which would only have Flash (who remained incredibly dominant in the modern era of SC) and would include Soulkey if he wins one of the next 2 ASLs.
Soulkey is looking extremely strong, I think if he keeps this up for another season or two especially against flash, definitely will be bonjwa status
I think history might repeat itselff with SK achieving bonjwa retroactively after his streak comes to an end similiar to previous bonjwa title holders. There hasnt really been a need to name a new bonjwa in the modern ASL era, so I think there is some resistance to it fow now.
When is Flash returning? I was really hoping to see him win a title playing Random and become the one and only person to accomplish this feat.
I like thinking about it in two eras.
@@michaelbird9148 i think about it in three eras. The pre-flash era, the Flash era and the post-flash era. Maybe soon four eras if i have to add the "flash rerurns"-era.
Who is today's Bonjwa in sc2 dor each race ?
New era needs a new designator. I nominate SoulKey as the first Jwabon. Protons noob race btw zerg FTW.
I know a lot of Kespa players practiced insane hours, but how do we know Soulkey and some others aren't doing the same?
If he beats peak, Flash and wins couple more asl's I think he probably will be named bonjour
This argument from the Korean scene is correct and also is why Serral is not the GOAT of sc2. When you rise to dominance after all the top players have retired, you're in a different category.
Soulkey is absolutely amazing though and if there was a HoF of SC he would be in it.
I think the argument makes sense but I don't think it's quite that simple, you have to consider how good they are, period (granted, it's very hard to tell 100% accurately, but I think you have to try, in the spirit of fairness). Soulkey is so good right now that (imo) his skill would hold up even if all the big names were still playing. Flash being the only one who would have a chance in a Bo7.
i think crowning him "most dominant player of his era" doesnt make much sense when that domination happened during flashs military service
i dont think its fair to say that the flash era ended when it had nothing to with him falling off or quiting, he dominated and had to leave for a while
essentially, we really have to see flash vs soulkey in SSL
the koreans dont like flash anyway, since his crypto scam. would be cool to spice up the storylines if you give soulkey a bonjwa title.
There sre more exciting terean players that have come and gone like fantasy, piano, others I have forgotten to mention. Speed is one. You cannot always win and look amateur, that is the greatness of these players, they provide entertainment value through having ups and downs.
Where did Larvae go?
Had wrist issues so retired
“You are among the top 10 players, but we deny you the rank of Bonjwa”
Real question is: is bisu a bonjwa?
I think Soulkey's rise has been kind of baffling in how suddenly he pulled ahead. Like if Snow had Soulkey's ASL success, no one would be surprised. Snow constantly shows good mechanics and has been a monster in Proleague for a while. But Soulkey was constantly tied with Hero and Queen as a top class Zerg contender. Then once Soulkey won ASL he just never stopped. He went from strong to unstoppable seemingly over night.
He was quoted to have bismal ZvT, then suddenly it seemed like he was free. You got to give to him, the streak until he started to win was the most consistent streak. You could see him reach Ro4 since what, ASL12? I forgot since when, but he had his moment whenever he was on the stage, Tasteless called him the most consistent zerg.
if jaedong ain't on the list, soulkey ain't gettin on either
I think if Soulkey dominates for a duration as long as what 'Happy' did to the War3 proscene. The community may eventually change its mind.
Soulkey is absolutely a bonjwa!
Its like how there will never be another founding father even if you're super good at whatever stuff they did.
"Neo-bonjwa" to bring some Latin into this
JD was smashing everyone. He played for the weakest team and usually all killed the opposing teams himself. He often crushed Flash too. He had over 70% winrate against zerg. Only people who dislike him as a person wouldn't give him the title. He's the most dominant player I've ever seen. Flash could just barely beat him sometimes.
On the Sharp thing... Even if Sharp isnt #1 terran, SK beat Light, Rush and JYJ in playoffs across the three wins and thats arguably the best 4 Terran rn, at least of 4 of the top 5/6.
Claiming someone is a "Bonjwa" when Flash isn't active is kind of weak tbh, I'm sure Soulkey himself wouldn't accept it. And let's not forget so many insane players just don't play or are banned, Last, Larva (because he's a dad ofc), Shinee (because he's banned, but has been for a long time), Effort, Rain is playing LoL (and even looks awkward when making RO4). It's not surprising the disrespect the Korean scene has for current Brood War, outside of Flash who is unparalleled. I think Soulkey is insane, don't get me wrong, and could be a Bonjwa if he had actual competition, but he doesn't, the skill level isn't there. I remember watching Flash vs Last games, now THAT is quality. We don't have that, we don't get that in ASL/SSL anymore, not for a few years.
So if Flash didnt pkay and sk won 10 in a row he iz still not a bonjwa when flash is inactive?
@@IvanS-n5f if you want to be considered the best, you gotta beat the best. Thats his point in one sentence.
I think you're underselling how competitive it is right now. Yeah no flash sucks, and he will always be the goat, but there's always been a revolving door of good players throughout the decades. In every era where there's been a bonjwa you could always say "yeah well X guy that was super good a few years ago stopped playing, so this guy's bonjwa status doesn't count"
I think Flash is considered best since no one could counter him when he played SK Terran and mech. Now, no terran is immune. Soulkey beats mech and JyJ doesn't play his signature SK Terran any more. Fantasy, Piano etc. there just aren't the same number of SK players and that shifts the overall balance in Soulkey's favour.
i've been watching bw since the beginning and i think players are slightly worse now than in the kespa era. it's hard to quantify decision making and strength of strategy, but mechanically, with micro and things like chance of missing things on minimap, awareness... is no question worse...and it shouldn't be surprising when they are practicing a tenth of the time they used to. you just see so many more mistakes now than in kespa era. in the kespa era if you saw a drop blip on the minimap you weren't really wondering if it was seen by the player, it was....it's just a lot sloppier now than it used to be and that's why I personally have a clear separation between kespa and post-kespa eras.
Care to share the years and leagues I should check back? I miss them...
His skill level is up there but not yet
Sounds like gatekeeping to me
Does the current era have a lower PRO player base than the Kespa era ?
I'm guessing at your meaning, but modern players would destroy older players (at their peak) with their older meta on current maps. but if you mean older players (at their peak) with modern style or modern players on older style maps, thats different hypothetical.
@@Shield_BatteryI'm assuming he means number of active pros? And I don't know the answer
@BinxyBrown Kespa era definitely had way more pro players. There were usually around 12 Kespa teams competing each with 10-20 main team players with probably the same amount of practice partners/ B team players. So 200+ pro players competing in MSL/OSL/Proleague tournaments year-round
now its quality over quantity
@@Shield_Battery I meant to compare mostly the amount of players. If there were more professional players in the Kespa era, being a bonjwa might feel harder to obtain since you have to convince more people of your elite of the elite status.
Would you change your opinion on Serral if he still dominated with Zerg nerf in sc2 ?
THREE more ASLs? At that point he'd not only be one, he'd be undeniably the best, yes?
Yeah not sure what we're even talking about if he won three more and wasn't considered a bonjwa by the Korean scene. That would just mean they retired the word and consider it to only apply to Kespa era.
By any sense of how the word was used in the past, he would be one.
@@gskills55 It's just a random Korean term, people give too much credit to it. How are Bisu and Jaedong not considered Bonjwas with how dominant they were? Bisu literally humiliated the previous Bonjwa and Jaedong was on par with the current Bonjwa of his time. It's a term that makes no sense at all.
@@ahejleira5654 bisu and jaedong were not far enough ahead of everyone else for long enough to be considered bonjwa. Jaedong always had Flash there and Bisu always had Stork, Jaedong, etc.
@@gskills55 And Flash always had Jaedong. Boxer, Nada and Iloveoov never were 'far enough ahead for long enough'. Under that definition the only Bonjwa in history would have been Savior.
Koreans often call Bonjwa to any player that is performing well, not just those 5. Again, this is just giving too much importance to some arbitrary thing someone put on the internet.
@@ahejleira5654 yeah i just disagree. there are 5 players labeled as bonjwas, as agreed upon by the Korean scene. they might also use the term bonjwa more casually for other players but that just means there are two uses of the word. there are concrete reasons for why those 5 players are considered bonjwas that are based on ELO, Kespa ranking, tournament results, matchup win percentages, and match records.
You can argue a bunch of stuff, and I acknowledge that there are good arguments as to why maybe a couple of those 5 shouldn't be bonjwa and Jaedong should be (and only Jaedong, there's no one else that should be considered). But at the end of the day the arguments for why it is the way it is are simple.
The argument that only Savior could be considered a bonjwa is completely narrative-based. there's no data or results-based argument you can make here that doesn't also include Nada and Flash.
iloveoov had an extremely short tenure but this is made up for by the fact of how far ahead of everyone and untouchable he was for that short period of time.
When Jaedong was the best player (mid 2007-early 2009), Flash was always right behind him. And when Jaedong achieved the most results and was at HIS best (mid 2008-late 2009), Flash was arguably better than him.
Flash wasn't a bonjwa until 2010, when Jaedong, Bisu, and Stork all dropped off a bit and Flash was clearly above the pack. So no, Flash didn't always have Jaedong.
The modern era seems like a scam. He should have got a golden mouse for winning 3 titles too.
It’s very unfair if the man wins 6 seasons in a row and just then gets considered. I like the idea of a new term but to the younger generation somewhere along the lines of winning 4 across even 6 season WILL give it up and give him some glory that sets the nostalgia aside. Eventually the majority will be the younger generation and consensus will grow.
hi artosis if I wake and bake 7 days straight am I a bongjwa
apparently he is the best! i dont think any protoss could beat him atm ( Flash would give him a close challenge? ) hmmm
In the history of BW, only Bisu dominated PVZ in a very short period. Rather, P was always crushed by zerg most of time.
If Soulkey isn't a bonjwa, I'd argue the title no longer means anything because he meets every criteria imaginable.
My hot take. He should be a bonjwa if he wins again next season and beats flash to do it.
Honestly, who cares what sort of title he gets? His dominance makes you look forward to next season and keeps the game exciting.
BoxerRRR
Before watching the vid I say no, but he’s like a pseudo Bonjwa if that makes sense
What if he meets flash in the next asl and wins?
IMO, the conclusion to your stream title is "not yet'.
TLDW there can be no more bonjwa lol
"a bonjwa has a very high winning percentage and successive title wins ... however a bonjwa is not defined by his statistics or records" excuse me, but what the fuck?
Progamers now are stronger just because meta evolved. Themselve are getting worse. Although he finally seems to have come to his perfection, our sad bonjwa doesn't have adequate enemies to prove himself a real one.
Admit you made one of your worst FP Interviews...
He looks more like a grandma. He needs a new hair style or something.
I'm unsure of how long the others have dominated relative to Soulkey (so far in the video) but I think the eye test is important in any goat debate and Soulkey does look damn near unstoppable rn.
The Goat and a Bonjwa is completely different. You are clueless. Flash is the Goat and stands unchallenged. You should apologise.
No question if he had never had to play zvz lol
No.
I should note that latest season everybody else was really rusty... season 17 everybody played much better.
If you wont call serral a bonjwa soulkey is nowhere close. serral won every final for 5 years and all korean pros call him the best. but you call rouge best lol, no soulkey is not bonjwa for winning a few things in a row.
No, rain is better than him if he actually tried
hes way better than that trash mini and forgg kids
If Flash returns next season, and SoulKey wins the tournsments while actually playing and winning over Flash (at any stage) I think he should be seriously considered for the title.
While he "only" beat Sharp in his Terran final, he killed Light in the Ro4/8 before that as well.
I think people want passing of the torch through same bouts, however times change. You cannot mistake Soulkey's title bouts with JyJ to be something else. JyJ was his kryptonite.