Very important! I fortunately was taught this lesson early on by my college roommate Andrew. I said the equivalent of "nah man, I suck," and he very firmly said, "don't ever say that, because when you say that, I look dumb. This is me trying to connect with you after enjoying what you did. Learn to take the compliment." And I still forget it! Because saying "nah I suck" almost always comes from a place of insecurity, and whenever I'm feeling insecure, I've caught myself saying the equivalent. The more you place your self-worth on your abilities as a musician, the more insecure you'll feel at all times, and so it's important to move away from that.
Oh, man, i feel that sometimes, wanting to say "nah i suck" just cus you're feeling insecure. Luckily, for me, I started my musical journey at a moment in my life where i rediscovered the "playing" in life, like, actual playing like a kid, and so everytime i go up the stage, i go with that attitude in mind and i know i can't "fail". Of course later i'll think "ah shit i could've done XY better" but i'll take the compliment and be thankful that someone recognized my efforts, and that i did my best at that time.
This was me throughout undergrad - I simply assumed (and still do to some degree) that putting myself down equated to my desire to be ‘better than I was yesterday’. My main teacher at college tried to get me out of this mentality for 4 years..!
Truer words have never been spoken! In my years spent recording and producing I have run into very few musicians that actually "suck" - (and even fewer that are natural prodigies). The only true difference between them all is practice and dedication. I find when I have the sense that someone is more proficient than me, I tend to think "well Im not THAT good" - but it's always been a marker for me - a wake up call to practice more - expand my musical vocabulary - study a style I'm less familiar with. My first music teacher told me "practice makes perfect - and perfect doesn't exist". Music is an infinite loop of practice and learning, you'll never be finished, and to me that's what makes it all the more fun.
I swear this has been the most informative, beneficial, and eye-opening real talk you’ve done so far. As somebody who puts them self down as a way to give credit where credit is due, this video helped me realize that i can only sound as good as I think i can sound. Thank you so much Patrick! you’re helping the younger generation of jazz get started on the best possible path!
It means a lot to see you say this. I'm super glad this was able to be helpful to you in some way, thank you very much! I hope you can always remind yourself of your improvements every day, no matter how small they might seem!
Paused at 3:32 to say that I once read something that stuck with me all these years. When a person gives a compliment, it’s not all about the receiver. The giver feels great knowing that the receiver acknowledges the appreciation of the giver. When a person rejects a compliment, it puts the giver in an awkward spot. To a giver, you’re hearing “you don’t know what you’re talking about” and I’ve learned to say “thank you, I really appreciate it” to any compliment ever since.
@@PatrickBartleyMusic Stephen Fry the British actor and 'gentleman' personality spent some time doing TV in the US. He would always react to the compliments he got in the way you describe. Its 'self effacement'. Its a typical British trait not to be seen 'blowing your own trumpet' as its considered vulgar, embarrasing and inpolite. But in the US its different. Folk are generally more gregarious and display emotion more readily. So after a while (as he tells it) his colleague pulls him aside and says to him, 'Stephen, your politeness is really causing offence, you need to learn how to take a compliment' And thats it. Even he had to learn, and exactly as you said, when someone hands you a compliment, say 'Thankyou, I appreciate that'. not, 'Nah you don't know what you're talking about'. BTW I've never been very good at self-effacement....
I'll never forget my buddy saying after he gave me a compliment that I declined "Maybe I just shouldn't of said anything." Stopped me dead in my tracks and I've never declined a compliment since.
yep, i'm very guilty of this. A wise lady at church a couple years ago yelled, "just say thanks!" as I trashed my performance. . So since then, i just say thanks.
Man a few years ago I dropped the "nah man" for a honest "yo thanks dude!". On the other side of it, when i get a "nah man" I dont contradict them, instead I take it seriously and ask questions like "oh really, what do you think couldve gone better?" and find it has a way more encouraging effect. Most of the time they either know specifically what went wrong, or realize its just bullshit. This change i feel made me a lot more approachable for both good and bad critiques, and also when i give others a compliment they know i mean it. As always outstanding content man, giving good stuff to think about!
I’m not going to front. I was in tears in the first few minutes of this video. People have been saying I was good for years and I always felt like I had to say no I’m not. But why? Thank you for your thoughts. A lot of people need to hear this. Just because I've stuff to work on it doesn’t make me bad.
Thanks for the words Pat. I've been only playing for 3 years and a little more than a half, and I started at 19. I'm now in jazz school, playing with folk who's been playing for 10 years or so. I've always felt like I should be put down since those guys are playing for way longer and have way more capabilities. It feels specially hard coming from an instrument such as the piano, where sometimes it seems everyone around me knows how to play it better. After my first concert ever, I acted like a complete idiot after getting those "ah man you did great" and kept denying it. I'll certainly keep everything you said in mind, as I'm trying more and more to show my playing.
@@lukki1377 Really appreciate it man, best of luck to you too. It used to feel like a curse that I only started this late, but now I see it as a blessing that I can be fully conscious and understand all about learning an instrument. Do your best man, you got this.
This is like when someone wants to give you $20 for helping them out with something and immediately going "oh no I can't accept that...". This is not healthy. People feel better when they feel like they can reciprocate. It's better to freely accept compliments and gifts and just do it in a humble way "Wow, thank you so much! I'm so glad I had the chance to help you with that. (Or "Thank you so much, I'm so glad you enjoyed the show! That makes my day, that's what I'm here for.") The more intense the compliment, the more you can just be like "wow, that really means a lot, I don't know what to say other than thank you!" And that often opens the door for more enjoyable conversations with that person. The last thing you want is to make them feel awkward for mustering up the courage to complement you- complimenting someone can be hard to do for the very reason that we don't know how they're going to take it- so when someone complements you, it's good to immediately give as much positivity in return as possible.
This was REAL talk. I've been way too guilty of this for way too long, pre-college, during, and just after. I also have autism, so the "other people's perspective" thing doesn't usually come easily or make sense to me, so thanks for explaining it! Thanks Patrick! PS, the bits where you said "this'll go into a therapy session" were the most powerful. Would love more of that! Also, the "just because you've got more to learn doesn't mean you haven't learned anything" is gold.
Great talk.. I think as musicians we tend to compare ourselves and our musical progress to our musical heroes … it takes a long time to learn to base our view of progress on ourselves not others .. negativity can definitely become a self fulfilling prophecy
Learned an important lesson at my church gig once - after what I felt to be a particularly sloppy set I got a compliment from one of the singers. After I gave this same “nah nah nah” reaction, this person was actually insulted not only because they felt it diminished their own opinions of taste and sensibility, but also because they went out of their way give the compliment in the first place. I’ve also learned the more difficult lesson that front loading a self-deprecating response to something you’ve done makes it more difficult for a leader/music director to give constructive criticism, because then they see your disappointment in yourself and don’t want to pile on. Thanks Patrick once again for speaking so eloquently about the difficult hard to put into words topics like this! Also congrats on the visa
Whenever someone compliments me, I always just say “thank you, that means a lot!” …because those words of affirmation at the very least mean a lot to the GIVER of the compliment even if my performance fell below my own standards. Graciousness & gratitude are virtues borne of humility too :)
I've been trying to make a point of this with my friends lately. Whenever someone starts going down that self-deprecating road, I try to shut it down as quick as I can. "None of that. You're good, and I wouldn't be telling you that if I didn't truly believe it. You build me up, I build you up, and we don't take down the bricks the other laid." Nothing rude, but firm that we don't do this here. We're each other's support network.
Thank you, Patrick for your inspirational insights! As a person who came very late to music making, I have often dealt with frustration and guilt concerning my very late start and my limited amount of practice time over the past 4 years. Music only became something I wanted to make starting at the age of 49 years , back in January of '20. Dana Colley's bari sax and how he played in the band Morphine were the epiphany for me. For the first time in my life, I had this moment: "I wanna make that sound!!" Trouble is, I'm in middle management at a community college, and my time and energies are taken up in keeping my program running (through bad decisions from above, Covid, and even more bad decisions from above than I ever imagined possible). Despite it all, I have had lessons once a week for 30 minutes for about a year's worth of time, I have plenty of books, watch all of the videos, and even signed up for an online course taught buy a very nice young man in England. I fault myself for only now focusing on getting all the major scales really under my fingers, and I'm also learning the 12 most used pentatonic blues scales. I've transcribed a lot from listening to the players I love (Colley, Temperley, Prez, Mulligan, and Payne), and I am working on dexterity and being able to play faster (glissandos). Age-related pain (and recovery times) slows this process... I used to get so mad every time I messed up a note, but now, perhaps because I'm older and less insecure, I try to approach playing and learning the way a child would. But I have the benefit of metacognition, so I can both experiment AND note what works on a more conscious level. Anyways, if someone compliments me, I always thank them humbly and remark that I am trying and this is a work in progress. It's a real shame that learning to make music is not more valued in US society and education. Took me 49 years to "get it." A whole new universe opened up to me, and it has given me a new purpose, with exciting things to learn and goals to achieve. This universe of music will be new to me for the rest of my life! How many other things in life can we say that about? Thanks again for doing what you do! 🙂 Arigato gozai-masu!
Thanks Patrick! I'm a 20 yr old Trumpet player from UK, can confirm this is definitely me. I get compliments a lot but I always dismiss them, saying to myself 'I'm not where I want to be at so it doesn't count', and it ends up making me feel down cause I then start to look for things I'm not happy with. But when I compliment someone else's playing, I really mean it cause I see something in their playing, so I guess its a little hypocritical. Maybe some of it is just a learned response from the sort of current jazz culture of trying to always seem humble. I guess it's all about taking the healthy side of humility and aspiring to play like the greats, whilst maintaining some level of self confidence. It's great to hear this sort of stuff from someone like you, who I admire a lot. Please keep these "real talks" coming, I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we all get a lot from them. Have a great day :))
Damn, I've never been so glad to land on the right video at the right time. Wanting to Learn to play jazz has me so lost in not even acknowledging I can probably play a simple song just fine. Or maybe a scale slow but sure. Then I end up worrying about how to play triads because of the pressure to get good. In that I forget everything else I know and feel bad about myself. It's also almost like the rush to get good makes you feel you're not where you want to be ,also making yourself say your not good enough, to the point that practicing is hard because it almost feels you've done it all as much as you know you haven't.
i've never had anyone actually call me out on me saying i'm bad, especially that part of the "prodigy" and having to stay humble. I did it so much that I stopped feeling confident in myself at all. I even started saying stuff like oh i only made it in all-region cause the competition wasn't as big this year I got lucky. I needed this video to get back my confidence in my playing
This definitely ties into the whole notion of someone being the “BEST” saxophonist in town. This is incredibly subjective, as it really depends on the personal aesthetics of the listener. If a person really digs Stan Getz, then they may prefer one player over the next. Same if someone loves Kenny G. My goal is to always express myself sincerely within the style of music as I sincerely listen to the other musicians. Some people would like it, some will love it, and some will be hatin. I try to always say thank you whenever I receive a compliment, for some reason I’ve been receiving criticism recently, and I say thank you to that too! No one really knows us the way we knew ourselves so it’s best just to take peoples impressions with a grain of salt
this is such great advice. i dont know what it feels like to be prodigious nor am i a virtuoso…but im up the mountain-maybe halfway on my musical journey. but, thanks to working in an unrelated field for 33 years, day-dreaming of playing my guitar in every crappy meeting, im now too old to become a “great” jazz musician. thats just a fact. but, i still have enuff years left to be the best me i can be whether i reach the top of the mountain or not. Like u said-you just gotta like climbing aka music. and i f$&@ing love it. Two people who I respect enormously-one being my teacher, the great guitarist and barry Harris expert: chris parks, the other one of my fellow students-an advanced piano player- recently told me to stop prefacing things I’ve been posting with all the type of negative self incrimination that you’re describing and just post the stuff and let it stand up instead tearing it down. and they’re right. 👊hell, i may have to change the whole tile and tenor of my humble little channel now that im thinking on this…🤔
the feeling of getting a compliment from a much older and very accomplished musician after you feel like you played like shit is so hard. i’ve learned that i have to just say thank you but the feeling inside kind of hurts. like i’m accepting a lie
"Thanks for the compliment, but I'll try and work more to sound even better" This is a "real talk" indeed, I'll watch this over and over till it sinks in properly. Thanks Pat You're indeed a mentor 🙌🏿🙌🏿🔥
Patrick, over the last few months you have become one of my musical heroes. I think your playing and your philosophy around music have helped respark my passion for music, and I am so thankful to you for that. In high school, I was one of these "prodigy kids" who stood out from the other kids. But after coming to college (not music school) I realized how poor my music education and ability actually was compared to my new peers, and I've struggled with feeling confident enough to share my music. I feel like I have a very good ear and knowledge of music theory, and I play a few different instruments fairly well, but I struggle to put my MUSIC, my heart and soul, out there for others to see. I always feel like I need to practice more, or that I'm not good enough. This video connected with me in a deep way, and I think that taking your advice will help me with my musical confidence.
And I'm fed up with my insecurities since I know I've got more to give. Last time at the jamsession, I decided to straighten up and focus only on Giving and Listening. Insecurity leads to me holding back and living in my head on stage. I want to let it all out and I've seen time and time again that people enjoy what I have to give. And how humble a thing is that, to want to share everything I have as best I can? How grateful I am to be in the position to do that. And now noticing realtime how I'm Not recognising that I've worked really hard to get to that place, because I need to be there.
Man this video was a deep cut. I started gigging with my dad's band at 13, played through high school and college and learned from many elders. Fast forward to now in my 30s I don't practice as much as I should or gig as much as I want to and I know my technique is not my best right now but I'm going to stop focusing on thinking that I suck and focus on the knowledge I still have and positive affirmations of the bread and butter tunes I can still bust out.
Another 'spot on' video my friend, because it's very differcult to sell yourself on the business side of music with a negative outlook on yourself! Be safe my friend, Jazz On & God Bless!!!
This is great! I had an old director in high school who always told us that no matter how we felt we played, if we receive a compliment we should always be appreciative of the fact that the person giving the compliment was still moved enough to say something to us. If we reply with "It wasn't that good" or "Nah man I suck" it isn't respectful of the person giving the compliment, because we're saying they shouldn't feel that way.
I started playing just a year ago; I used to play the violin in elementary and was above average but the passion wasn’t there. I just turned 20 and I’m studying percussion and piano now; but Im always going back and forth with being good and not being good enough bc I compare myself to much, but this video helped; love the community ❤
Dude, I sucked at sax for so long in college, that when I finally felt the scale tip in the other direction, I was very eager to say, "hell yah, I worked hard to get this good".
In my experience this is much more common in the jazz world than when working in other musical contexts. I did attend a jazz school (bubble) albeit 35 years ago, and the world was a little different. That said, I work in a variety of musical styles and don't really hear the "I suck" and "humility" issues with funk, R&B, and Rock gigs. In the jazz world I agree that it's because we love our heroes so much and try to constantly get better and reach that high bar. Also agree that the attitude is counter-productive on several levels. In this context if one can realize that the joy is in doing the work and learning, and in supporting each other then it's a positive outcome.
One semester I performed A Remark You Made on fretless bass for an applied music recital, and the whole time I thought "I know I cant read all of this, I'm just gonna try my best to get through it confidently even if its wrong". As I was leaving the building, this guy was trying to come up to me and talk to me about my performance and I just wanted to run to my car. My fiancé insisted I stop and listen to him. He was EXTREMELY impressed by my performance, said it sounded like a cool Pink Floyd song or something. I'm pretty sure he wasn't a musician, but I did tell him he should listen to more of Weather Report's stuff. He said "I will!" I'd never seen him since, but for a second I was more interested in him doing that than complimenting me any more. But if I could go back, I wish I stayed put and let him say what he wanted to say, because when you're in college, people don't often get that excited about your performances. And who knows if I'll ever be famous or make music that gets that response from someone ever again?
I’ve actually been working on my confidence and self Image playing wise and I appreciate stuff like this man. NO ONE talks about this!! This is extremely important, and Im so glad to hear you talk about it. Thank you for making this video
Thats me, I stated alto in quarantine and I feel like im behind everyone else who has been playing way longer than me. i kept telling myself i was going to jam with others and busk but i felt like I was just shit and wanted to give up.
"just because you have more to learn, doesnt mean you havent learned anything" thats great. i actually relate to this more with japanese than with music(should i be worried lol) but yea, ill feel down about "oh i cant hold a full conversation" or "oh my comprehension sucks" or "oh there are so many kanji/words i dont know", but i remember not knowing any kanji at all. i remember typing out my first sentences, and adding "and" or "because" to make a bigger sentence. i remember not knowing where this word ends and that one begins, and lots of other stuff, but i know all that now. we get too focused on what we cant do and it actively prevents us from getting there and its so silly. like, surely we can reach without beating ourselves up the whole time
"Comparison is the thief of joy." I've always tried to play something that I'd want to listen to...if I listen to myself and think "I don't like that" then I go and make it better and the end result is something that I like. If you enjoy what you're doing that's really the best thing - people should enjoy making music, it's such a beautiful gift. Thanks Pat!
I've learned to simply say "thank you so much-I'm still working on it" which to me acknowledges the compliment and also the fact that I'm not satisfied yet - I'm still on the journey as I will always be.
I guess my point is, why does the person who gave you the compliment NEED to know you're "still working on it"? You can just say thank you and be grateful for where you are, even if you know that there's always something to work on. You made it this far. You don't need to convince yourself or anyone else that you're "humble".
@@PatrickBartleyMusic I'm not trying to convince myself or anyone else-rather just acknowledging that it's a never-ending journey. I don't know if they need to hear it or not. Some folks don't know. I talk to many people who don't know anything about jazz and aren't familiar with what it takes to really make music in this way. This is simply how I feel comfortable responding, wether they need to hear it or not. I think it's an inspiring message, in any art form.
Being a beginner accordionist starting a year ago it's important to reframe things so instead of saying I'm bad I say I'm a beginner still learning. As a way to not shut myself down but to acknowledge my state and accomplishment in a year.
I’m 24 and been playing 6 strings since I was 8/9. There was a period between ages 15-22 where I didn’t have a guitar and was homeless so it really stunted my growth and learning. All that time I never mentioned my ability to play guitar at all and If I did I would say “I play a little bit of guitar.” I’m not a fast player by any means, but at this point I still get plenty of “wows” from the music/rhythms I create when jamming. I always thought I would be rhythm/chords only player, but I’ve got a lot of people telling me now “you’d be a great lead too”. I’ve surpassed the point of “where I want to be” and had no clue because of years of not having an instrument, not jamming with anyone, and doubting/belittling my ability. I remember one time I was playing with the first person I ever jammed with, we were recording some demos and he told me to do a solo. I did the solo and we listened back to it, and in the middle of it he goes “wow man you sound good” meanwhile I’m thinking we were listening to HIS solo and saying in my head “that’s definitely not me” I don’t remember how I responded, but I’m really hoping I didn’t shut the compliment down. I think I said something along the lines of “is that really me? you really think so?” It meant a lot to me because I looked up to him more than any other musician in this world, probably still do. At the time we were 14/15 and he already knew how to play 5 different instruments and it was my first very recorded solo. I’d like to add that phantom practice is real thing. During the 7 years I didn’t have a guitar to play, I would practice in my head and come up with licks and melodies, and solo to songs in my head, when I finally got a guitar again at 22, my ability had skyrocketed without practicing in 7 years. I could do licks I never thought I’d do, solo without hitting the wrong notes, effortlessly fret complicated chords, and I was 2x faster at playing my scales cleanly.
Your comment about being the kid that was slightly better through school and having to keep yourself down hits hard. I was always the kid that practiced a lot so I kept pushing further and further ahead of my peers, but I felt like I couldn't come out and say I was good without being like "look at me I work hard and can play all this stuff." I still sometimes feel like I need to keep my head down but I'm trying to unlearn it because I'm not a top level player at all, but I'm soooo much better than I pretend to be in conversations with musicians but I always feel like admitting it is a bad thing even though it's not.
Patrick, you are a leader in the community, and I truly appreciate your words here. Coming from an american christian background where a premium was placed on humility, I've struggled with this for years (and still do). I appreciate you kindly calling us those of us out who need to hear it. And your call to action for a more supportive community of cats and one that acknowledges individual progress in favor of the comparison to the best cat in town is one that I fully subscribe to (yes, even though you didn't ask for it).
Struggling from life long confidence issues as well as perfectionism has really made it difficult for me to accept compliments, up till the point where I realise I come off as ungrateful - lost track of all the chase-up texts to people to say an earnest thank you after the show. That said, when people tell me to ‘keep going’, that always activates my gratitude, because they recognise that I’m a work in progress (which doesn’t feed into the imposter syndrome of usual compliments; it feels like it’s hard to discern between genuine praise and post-gig politeness) but still believe in the good I can do later.
I do this all the time. But because in my head sometimes feels like people gives compliments just to be politically correct. I also agree with your point. Self deprecation is bad for oneself. This video is very helpful
I used to do something similar (answering acompliment poorly), and at 50 it's a hard habit to break. Breaking it is something I've been really proud of myself for (only managed it recently). When I decided to go pro, the head of the music union here asked me "are you good?" I'm not sure I answered it very well. I said "some other professional sax players say I am, but..." This was before I had gained more confidence and broke the habit.
Someone told me a long time ago just to say thank you. After all, I know I’m good, I know people enjoy listening. What I think isn’t as important as just accepting the compliment. That’s not arrogant, it’s just not false modesty.
Crucial video! "Thank you" really is the best way to reply whether someone is telling you rock, or you suck. Putting yourself down just lays all your insecurities out there for everyone else to see. Being thankful and grateful might not always get one further in life, but it always gives one the chance to leave a positive impression. I always remind myself when playing (especially when playing ticketed/cover charge) events: these people paid money because one way or another, they got the idea that they wanted to spend their night hearing the music I'm a part of. If you turn around and tell them after they bought the tickets, drinks, t shirt, etc that you think you suck, you pretty much just dissed their whole night, and you're essentially telling them they have bad judgement for coming to see you/your colleagues/bandleader! The negativity becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in that moment.
Writing this to remind myself of the things that resonated with me the most “Just because you have more to learn, doesn’t mean you haven’t learned anything”
Another great post Patrick! I think the point is to not be dismissive of those that pay you a compliment. After a gig, when a fellow musician pays me a compliment I usually return it as sincerely as I can-even if I wasn’t digging what I was doing. A non musician- I’ll usually thank them for participating as a audience member.
Exactly! If you make the person giving you the compliment feel like they have no taste, what do you think is going to happen? If someone says they really enjoyed my sax playing, I am sooo grateful! It makes me feel that all the work has not gone in vain. I'm often in situations where I feel "I gotta up my game" and then I go home and work on things. Positive vibrations!!!
I've been guilty of so much of this to the point where it definitely has had negative effects, but I'm finally reaching a healthier attitude with the whole thing. Mindset is such a big deal, and it isn't built in a day either.
Thank you Patrick for doing this. Crippeling selfdoubt is such a major issue trying to perform a craft that everyone will have an opinion on. We are all vulnarble to critique but most of all ourself ❤
This is really awesome! I’m a freshman saxophonist, I’m pursuing jazz and classical and I’ve definitely been pushing myself down for a long time with my words, this video is great. Thanks so much man. Awesome to see a wonderful fluent jazz musician reach to other people. Thanks
Unfortunately all too many people can't find a middle ground. They either say: "I suck big time" or they have inflated egos and think they are great in spite of having glaring deficiencies musically. Only a few people are able to positively accept themselves as they are while at the same time knowing about their weaknesses and working to get better.
Yes, I totally agree. Saying "thank you" is also about appreciating that the listener came up to compliment you, and at the very least attend your performance! We need to stop thinking only about ourselves and how we measure up to our ideal.
I completely agree with this. I also feel like saying nah I'm not that good might give the impression to the person giving the compliment that you think they're naive for thinking you're good. Thank you for vocalizing this point!
This has something that I have always struggled with because I didn't know what to say without feeling like it bragging so I'll usually say thanks but I could have done better or if they played too I'll say they killed it I am one of those people who is an outcast for being a better player but this helps a lot with mentality and being better thank you
This video is not too long at all. It just felt like I heard so much that resonated, and it felt fast actually. And I feel like it hit every mark with me. For example, in my rehearsals in big band, as lead alto, I always kinda hold back when it came to being loud or not doing “too much” in my solos. And then I realized, especially since I am a non jazz major, I gotta cherish every time I play. Like our performances are only twice a semester and only in the spring, so I’ve realized I will put every ounce of my being into what I play. I truly respect you even more now as person and a musician because it was a different video of your’s where I realized, why am I not putting everything into my solos when this is my opportunity with complete freedom to express myself. With our first performance just having passed, I got so many compliments and I really just thought like, no matter what people think, I love my saxophone so why put myself down. Thank you Patrick, truly are a giant of today’s scene and such a positive force
My grandfather told me about this same topic 9 years ago. I could play better than the average player but still wanted to sound humble by declining a compliment after a performance. I’d even start talking about points in the music where I made some mistakes. My grandfather told me “when someone comes up to you and compliments your playing, just humbly say thank you and that you appreciate the compliment and move on! They don’t need the excuses!” That stuck with me! Glad you spoke on this topic.
I think the whole “jazz humble” thing comes from the idea that even the greatest masters say that they are still learning and are students of the music. “If they’re still learning then I definitely am too” kind of a mindset. That’s definitely how I’ve justified this behavior from myself in the past. Great video as always!
Everyone should always stay learning! But that doesn't mean we should diminish what we've already achieved. I don't think Bird, Trane, Miles, Duke, Pops, Cannonball, etc. ever said "nah, man, I'm not really..." After getting a compliment!
You hit some very important points. I am very guilty of calling myself bad, because I often feel that people are just trying to encourage me, even though I feel it's obvious that I messed up, or fell below my own expected standard, in a performance. I definitely need to stop doing that. Thanks for the shake up.
Jazz has been a major part of my life but the pursuit that I actually learned this lesson in was gaming! Overwatch specifically, I was playing in tournaments and had major confidence issues in my ability to play well. I became somewhat notorious in my group for talking down to myself if I ever made a mistake and it made me a real pain to be around in hindsight. Eventually one day one of the guys in our server had to take me aside and talk. I remember everything he said word for word, he told me: "I get why you feel this way, really. But these guys have watched you grow from just learning to being one of the better players around here. And a lot of them skill-wise are still where they were when you started. You've been rolling us in these games, if you're calling yourself trash, what does that make us?" That was really eye-opening for me, and it helped me realize just how damaging that kind of negative self-talk can actually be for OTHER people's self confidence (for music this would be a matter of musicians talking to other musicians). If they watch someone they see as really good or better than them talk down to themselves about their ability, how do you think it makes those people feel about themselves and their own abilities? Being willing to accept yourself as being good at something if you're good at it can actually be really healthy for the self-confidence of those around you doing the same thing as you, and that's something that I think we often forget about when we think about staying "humble".
Here in my community the script goes something like this: Them: How was your weekend? Me: Great! I played some games and a lot of saxophone. Them: How long have you been playing? Me: 36 years, to varying levels of intensity. Them: Oh then you have to be good. Me: Yeah, I do pretty well. There’s always something to work on. This seems to be effective.
This is such an incredibly hard habit to break once you start doing it. Even though I've gotten to the point that I don't say it out loud whenever someone gives me a compliment, I still think it. It's a fine line between understanding and positively accepting your limitations, failures, and mistakes and then actually working to fix it, versus negatively accepting your limitations, etc, and allowing those to keep you held down. I'm mostly still in the latter of those two and haven't learned how to stop.
I'm one of those who used to argue that I suck when folks would give me a compliment. Then, one day my mentor told me to stop it. Just say thank you. That's what I do now so as to not insult the one giving me that compliment. Yes, I still want to tell them I'm bad but I know that the real issue is wanting to play better. We all want that. It's self defeating to be always self deprecating. Good subject. Thanks Patrick !!
I had to learn how to take compliments and just say “thanks”. When you pull the “oh no I’m not that good” thing, it offends people because you’re low key telling them they don’t know what they’re talking about or they’re lying to blow smoke up you’re @$$. I’ve even had people say “Hey bro, you do know you’re really good”…and now I just say…”I know”…as matter of factly as possible because to me, being good isn’t the point…the point is, how did I serve the music.
I don’t think I’ve had this problem because, if anything, I tend to be arrogant about my own skill, but it has definitely irked me when people say that because it comes off as being coy and trying to get more compliments. I realize that’s not actually what’s usually going on, but that’s the vibe it gives off, which can be annoying.
Ever since i got my tenor sax about 5 months ago, I've always wanted to be better and better, and I think that it makes it really hard for me to feel like im getting any better at all. I'm obsessed with dexter gordon, and the more i listen to him the more i realise how far away i am from reaching that peak. its discouraging when ive been playing sax for 5 years(alto) and im still not as good as i should be. always been a tough thing for me to fix 😮💨
Man, this is gold! It means so much to me. This is so hard to me you know? The "Nah Nah" thing happens to me so many times. It hapened to me yesterday. I know I have a lot to improve and I don't feel I play more than the other friends I know but thanks for making this video. I'll never do It again in my life. This is a life lesson I will remember forever. Thank you!
Thank you for all your wonderful, insightful and helpful content! I've been playing profesionally for over 20 years（ｒｎB, funk, reggae, hip hop, jazz etc) and I still struggle with how to take compliments. A lot has to do with the culture I grew up in and the "tall poppy syndrome." that I grew up seeing in the 70's and 80's growing up in N.Z. (I'm now based in Japan.) The long term effects of that really are harmful to your latter years, which I still have to deal with today to some degree. I love your energy man. Discovered you via Emmet Cohen's vids. Subscribed!!!
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Very important! I fortunately was taught this lesson early on by my college roommate Andrew. I said the equivalent of "nah man, I suck," and he very firmly said, "don't ever say that, because when you say that, I look dumb. This is me trying to connect with you after enjoying what you did. Learn to take the compliment."
And I still forget it! Because saying "nah I suck" almost always comes from a place of insecurity, and whenever I'm feeling insecure, I've caught myself saying the equivalent.
The more you place your self-worth on your abilities as a musician, the more insecure you'll feel at all times, and so it's important to move away from that.
Oh, man, i feel that sometimes, wanting to say "nah i suck" just cus you're feeling insecure. Luckily, for me, I started my musical journey at a moment in my life where i rediscovered the "playing" in life, like, actual playing like a kid, and so everytime i go up the stage, i go with that attitude in mind and i know i can't "fail". Of course later i'll think "ah shit i could've done XY better" but i'll take the compliment and be thankful that someone recognized my efforts, and that i did my best at that time.
Thanks for watching and giving your input, Adam!
This was me throughout undergrad - I simply assumed (and still do to some degree) that putting myself down equated to my desire to be ‘better than I was yesterday’. My main teacher at college tried to get me out of this mentality for 4 years..!
@@sat.chid.ananda hell yeah dude! looking at music as "just playing around" helps me fly all over the fretboard!
Truer words have never been spoken!
In my years spent recording and producing I have run into very few musicians that actually "suck" - (and even fewer that are natural prodigies). The only true difference between them all is practice and dedication.
I find when I have the sense that someone is more proficient than me, I tend to think "well Im not THAT good" - but it's always been a marker for me - a wake up call to practice more - expand my musical vocabulary - study a style I'm less familiar with. My first music teacher told me "practice makes perfect - and perfect doesn't exist". Music is an infinite loop of practice and learning, you'll never be finished, and to me that's what makes it all the more fun.
“Just cuz you have more to learn doesn’t mean you haven’t learned anything” someone put that on a poster right now
I swear this has been the most informative, beneficial, and eye-opening real talk you’ve done so far. As somebody who puts them self down as a way to give credit where credit is due, this video helped me realize that i can only sound as good as I think i can sound. Thank you so much Patrick! you’re helping the younger generation of jazz get started on the best possible path!
It means a lot to see you say this. I'm super glad this was able to be helpful to you in some way, thank you very much! I hope you can always remind yourself of your improvements every day, no matter how small they might seem!
Paused at 3:32 to say that I once read something that stuck with me all these years. When a person gives a compliment, it’s not all about the receiver. The giver feels great knowing that the receiver acknowledges the appreciation of the giver. When a person rejects a compliment, it puts the giver in an awkward spot. To a giver, you’re hearing “you don’t know what you’re talking about” and I’ve learned to say “thank you, I really appreciate it” to any compliment ever since.
This is exactly what I'm saying, thank you!
LOLOL just got to where you say this at 16:26. Thank YOU for sharing your wisdom :)
@@PatrickBartleyMusic Stephen Fry the British actor and 'gentleman' personality spent some time doing TV in the US. He would always react to the compliments he got in the way you describe. Its 'self effacement'. Its a typical British trait not to be seen 'blowing your own trumpet' as its considered vulgar, embarrasing and inpolite. But in the US its different. Folk are generally more gregarious and display emotion more readily.
So after a while (as he tells it) his colleague pulls him aside and says to him, 'Stephen, your politeness is really causing offence, you need to learn how to take a compliment'
And thats it. Even he had to learn, and exactly as you said, when someone hands you a compliment, say 'Thankyou, I appreciate that'.
not, 'Nah you don't know what you're talking about'.
BTW I've never been very good at self-effacement....
@@lyntedrockley7295 Yes! (Though, as a Brit, I’m conflicted 😅 )
I'll never forget my buddy saying after he gave me a compliment that I declined "Maybe I just shouldn't of said anything." Stopped me dead in my tracks and I've never declined a compliment since.
yep, i'm very guilty of this. A wise lady at church a couple years ago yelled, "just say thanks!" as I trashed my performance. . So since then, i just say thanks.
Yo pat. This spread round my high school jazz scene like wildfire. We all seen it and we all appreciate this message. Thank you.
Man a few years ago I dropped the "nah man" for a honest "yo thanks dude!". On the other side of it, when i get a "nah man" I dont contradict them, instead I take it seriously and ask questions like "oh really, what do you think couldve gone better?" and find it has a way more encouraging effect. Most of the time they either know specifically what went wrong, or realize its just bullshit.
This change i feel made me a lot more approachable for both good and bad critiques, and also when i give others a compliment they know i mean it.
As always outstanding content man, giving good stuff to think about!
When someone compliments you, say thank you!!
I’m not going to front. I was in tears in the first few minutes of this video. People have been saying I was good for years and I always felt like I had to say no I’m not. But why? Thank you for your thoughts. A lot of people need to hear this. Just because I've stuff to work on it doesn’t make me bad.
Great message. Much better to have the self-fulfilling prophecy of "I'm good" than "I suck".
Thanks for the words Pat. I've been only playing for 3 years and a little more than a half, and I started at 19. I'm now in jazz school, playing with folk who's been playing for 10 years or so. I've always felt like I should be put down since those guys are playing for way longer and have way more capabilities. It feels specially hard coming from an instrument such as the piano, where sometimes it seems everyone around me knows how to play it better. After my first concert ever, I acted like a complete idiot after getting those "ah man you did great" and kept denying it. I'll certainly keep everything you said in mind, as I'm trying more and more to show my playing.
In the same boat as you but I’m on saxophone but trust me man, you got this, the work you put in will show I promise you
@@lukki1377 Really appreciate it man, best of luck to you too. It used to feel like a curse that I only started this late, but now I see it as a blessing that I can be fully conscious and understand all about learning an instrument. Do your best man, you got this.
Im the same, and also think is a bless to start late, you learn the real deal and are fully conscious as you said
This is like when someone wants to give you $20 for helping them out with something and immediately going "oh no I can't accept that...". This is not healthy. People feel better when they feel like they can reciprocate. It's better to freely accept compliments and gifts and just do it in a humble way "Wow, thank you so much! I'm so glad I had the chance to help you with that. (Or "Thank you so much, I'm so glad you enjoyed the show! That makes my day, that's what I'm here for.") The more intense the compliment, the more you can just be like "wow, that really means a lot, I don't know what to say other than thank you!" And that often opens the door for more enjoyable conversations with that person. The last thing you want is to make them feel awkward for mustering up the courage to complement you- complimenting someone can be hard to do for the very reason that we don't know how they're going to take it- so when someone complements you, it's good to immediately give as much positivity in return as possible.
Watched the whole thing. I loved the metaphor of how each of us are "on the way."
This was REAL talk. I've been way too guilty of this for way too long, pre-college, during, and just after. I also have autism, so the "other people's perspective" thing doesn't usually come easily or make sense to me, so thanks for explaining it!
Thanks Patrick!
PS, the bits where you said "this'll go into a therapy session" were the most powerful. Would love more of that! Also, the "just because you've got more to learn doesn't mean you haven't learned anything" is gold.
Great talk.. I think as musicians we tend to compare ourselves and our musical progress to our musical heroes … it takes a long time to learn to base our view of progress on ourselves not others .. negativity can definitely become a self fulfilling prophecy
Learned an important lesson at my church gig once - after what I felt to be a particularly sloppy set I got a compliment from one of the singers. After I gave this same “nah nah nah” reaction, this person was actually insulted not only because they felt it diminished their own opinions of taste and sensibility, but also because they went out of their way give the compliment in the first place.
I’ve also learned the more difficult lesson that front loading a self-deprecating response to something you’ve done makes it more difficult for a leader/music director to give constructive criticism, because then they see your disappointment in yourself and don’t want to pile on.
Thanks Patrick once again for speaking so eloquently about the difficult hard to put into words topics like this! Also congrats on the visa
Whenever someone compliments me, I always just say “thank you, that means a lot!” …because those words of affirmation at the very least mean a lot to the GIVER of the compliment even if my performance fell below my own standards. Graciousness & gratitude are virtues borne of humility too :)
I've been trying to make a point of this with my friends lately. Whenever someone starts going down that self-deprecating road, I try to shut it down as quick as I can. "None of that. You're good, and I wouldn't be telling you that if I didn't truly believe it. You build me up, I build you up, and we don't take down the bricks the other laid." Nothing rude, but firm that we don't do this here. We're each other's support network.
Thank you, Patrick for your inspirational insights!
As a person who came very late to music making, I have often dealt with frustration and guilt concerning my very late start and my limited amount of practice time over the past 4 years. Music only became something I wanted to make starting at the age of 49 years , back in January of '20. Dana Colley's bari sax and how he played in the band Morphine were the epiphany for me. For the first time in my life, I had this moment: "I wanna make that sound!!"
Trouble is, I'm in middle management at a community college, and my time and energies are taken up in keeping my program running (through bad decisions from above, Covid, and even more bad decisions from above than I ever imagined possible). Despite it all, I have had lessons once a week for 30 minutes for about a year's worth of time, I have plenty of books, watch all of the videos, and even signed up for an online course taught buy a very nice young man in England.
I fault myself for only now focusing on getting all the major scales really under my fingers, and I'm also learning the 12 most used pentatonic blues scales. I've transcribed a lot from listening to the players I love (Colley, Temperley, Prez, Mulligan, and Payne), and I am working on dexterity and being able to play faster (glissandos). Age-related pain (and recovery times) slows this process... I used to get so mad every time I messed up a note, but now, perhaps because I'm older and less insecure, I try to approach playing and learning the way a child would. But I have the benefit of metacognition, so I can both experiment AND note what works on a more conscious level.
Anyways, if someone compliments me, I always thank them humbly and remark that I am trying and this is a work in progress.
It's a real shame that learning to make music is not more valued in US society and education. Took me 49 years to "get it." A whole new universe opened up to me, and it has given me a new purpose, with exciting things to learn and goals to achieve. This universe of music will be new to me for the rest of my life! How many other things in life can we say that about?
Thanks again for doing what you do! 🙂
Arigato gozai-masu!
Thanks Patrick! I'm a 20 yr old Trumpet player from UK, can confirm this is definitely me. I get compliments a lot but I always dismiss them, saying to myself 'I'm not where I want to be at so it doesn't count', and it ends up making me feel down cause I then start to look for things I'm not happy with. But when I compliment someone else's playing, I really mean it cause I see something in their playing, so I guess its a little hypocritical. Maybe some of it is just a learned response from the sort of current jazz culture of trying to always seem humble.
I guess it's all about taking the healthy side of humility and aspiring to play like the greats, whilst maintaining some level of self confidence. It's great to hear this sort of stuff from someone like you, who I admire a lot. Please keep these "real talks" coming, I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we all get a lot from them. Have a great day :))
Damn, I've never been so glad to land on the right video at the right time. Wanting to Learn to play jazz has me so lost in not even acknowledging I can probably play a simple song just fine. Or maybe a scale slow but sure. Then I end up worrying about how to play triads because of the pressure to get good. In that I forget everything else I know and feel bad about myself.
It's also almost like the rush to get good makes you feel you're not where you want to be ,also making yourself say your not good enough, to the point that practicing is hard because it almost feels you've done it all as much as you know you haven't.
i've never had anyone actually call me out on me saying i'm bad, especially that part of the "prodigy" and having to stay humble. I did it so much that I stopped feeling confident in myself at all. I even started saying stuff like oh i only made it in all-region cause the competition wasn't as big this year I got lucky. I needed this video to get back my confidence in my playing
Sometimes we wonder if someone is actually being genuine or just trying to flatter. I have experienced both
Brother I just discovered your channel and Im eating these videos up. You have a VERY important voice in this space.
This definitely ties into the whole notion of someone being the “BEST” saxophonist in town. This is incredibly subjective, as it really depends on the personal aesthetics of the listener. If a person really digs Stan Getz, then they may prefer one player over the next. Same if someone loves Kenny G.
My goal is to always express myself sincerely within the style of music as I sincerely listen to the other musicians. Some people would like it, some will love it, and some will be hatin.
I try to always say thank you whenever I receive a compliment, for some reason I’ve been receiving criticism recently, and I say thank you to that too! No one really knows us the way we knew ourselves so it’s best just to take peoples impressions with a grain of salt
this is such great advice. i dont know what it feels like to be prodigious nor am i a virtuoso…but im up the mountain-maybe halfway on my musical journey. but, thanks to working in an unrelated field for 33 years, day-dreaming of playing my guitar in every crappy meeting, im now too old to become a “great” jazz musician. thats just a fact. but, i still have enuff years left to be the best me i can be whether i reach the top of the mountain or not.
Like u said-you just gotta like climbing aka music. and i f$&@ing love it. Two people who I respect enormously-one being my teacher, the great guitarist and barry Harris expert: chris parks, the other one of my fellow students-an advanced piano player- recently told me to stop prefacing things I’ve been posting with all the type of negative self incrimination that you’re describing and just post the stuff and let it stand up instead tearing it down. and they’re right.
👊hell, i may have to change the whole tile and tenor of my humble little channel now that im thinking on this…🤔
the feeling of getting a compliment from a much older and very accomplished musician after you feel like you played like shit is so hard. i’ve learned that i have to just say thank you but the feeling inside kind of hurts. like i’m accepting a lie
"Thanks for the compliment, but I'll try and work more to sound even better"
This is a "real talk" indeed, I'll watch this over and over till it sinks in properly.
Thanks Pat
You're indeed a mentor 🙌🏿🙌🏿🔥
Patrick, over the last few months you have become one of my musical heroes. I think your playing and your philosophy around music have helped respark my passion for music, and I am so thankful to you for that. In high school, I was one of these "prodigy kids" who stood out from the other kids. But after coming to college (not music school) I realized how poor my music education and ability actually was compared to my new peers, and I've struggled with feeling confident enough to share my music. I feel like I have a very good ear and knowledge of music theory, and I play a few different instruments fairly well, but I struggle to put my MUSIC, my heart and soul, out there for others to see. I always feel like I need to practice more, or that I'm not good enough. This video connected with me in a deep way, and I think that taking your advice will help me with my musical confidence.
And I'm fed up with my insecurities since I know I've got more to give. Last time at the jamsession, I decided to straighten up and focus only on Giving and Listening. Insecurity leads to me holding back and living in my head on stage. I want to let it all out and I've seen time and time again that people enjoy what I have to give. And how humble a thing is that, to want to share everything I have as best I can? How grateful I am to be in the position to do that. And now noticing realtime how I'm Not recognising that I've worked really hard to get to that place, because I need to be there.
Man this video was a deep cut. I started gigging with my dad's band at 13, played through high school and college and learned from many elders. Fast forward to now in my 30s I don't practice as much as I should or gig as much as I want to and I know my technique is not my best right now but I'm going to stop focusing on thinking that I suck and focus on the knowledge I still have and positive affirmations of the bread and butter tunes I can still bust out.
Another 'spot on' video my friend, because it's very differcult to sell yourself on the business side of music with a negative outlook on yourself! Be safe my friend, Jazz On & God Bless!!!
I like the long video length.
Thank you for sharing Patrick, you provide an informative perspective.
This is great! I had an old director in high school who always told us that no matter how we felt we played, if we receive a compliment we should always be appreciative of the fact that the person giving the compliment was still moved enough to say something to us. If we reply with "It wasn't that good" or "Nah man I suck" it isn't respectful of the person giving the compliment, because we're saying they shouldn't feel that way.
I started playing just a year ago; I used to play the violin in elementary and was above average but the passion wasn’t there. I just turned 20 and I’m studying percussion and piano now; but Im always going back and forth with being good and not being good enough bc I compare myself to much, but this video helped; love the community ❤
Patrick leading our way out of the valley of despair ❤
Wow! Have you been following me around? I ALWAYS reject compliments. My mind breaks upon hearing them and doesn’t accept them.
Dude, I sucked at sax for so long in college, that when I finally felt the scale tip in the other direction, I was very eager to say, "hell yah, I worked hard to get this good".
In my experience this is much more common in the jazz world than when working in other musical contexts. I did attend a jazz school (bubble) albeit 35 years ago, and the world was a little different. That said, I work in a variety of musical styles and don't really hear the "I suck" and "humility" issues with funk, R&B, and Rock gigs. In the jazz world I agree that it's because we love our heroes so much and try to constantly get better and reach that high bar. Also agree that the attitude is counter-productive on several levels. In this context if one can realize that the joy is in doing the work and learning, and in supporting each other then it's a positive outcome.
One semester I performed A Remark You Made on fretless bass for an applied music recital, and the whole time I thought "I know I cant read all of this, I'm just gonna try my best to get through it confidently even if its wrong". As I was leaving the building, this guy was trying to come up to me and talk to me about my performance and I just wanted to run to my car. My fiancé insisted I stop and listen to him. He was EXTREMELY impressed by my performance, said it sounded like a cool Pink Floyd song or something. I'm pretty sure he wasn't a musician, but I did tell him he should listen to more of Weather Report's stuff. He said "I will!" I'd never seen him since, but for a second I was more interested in him doing that than complimenting me any more. But if I could go back, I wish I stayed put and let him say what he wanted to say, because when you're in college, people don't often get that excited about your performances. And who knows if I'll ever be famous or make music that gets that response from someone ever again?
My favorite is “nah I’m tryna be like you” 😂
I’ve actually been working on my confidence and self Image playing wise and I appreciate stuff like this man. NO ONE talks about this!! This is extremely important, and Im so glad to hear you talk about it. Thank you for making this video
Thanks, I'll try it, to become more confident about myself.
Thats me, I stated alto in quarantine and I feel like im behind everyone else who has been playing way longer than me. i kept telling myself i was going to jam with others and busk but i felt like I was just shit and wanted to give up.
I felt the pressure so much that I genuinely got worse at playing jazz my first two years of college lol
"just because you have more to learn, doesnt mean you havent learned anything"
thats great. i actually relate to this more with japanese than with music(should i be worried lol) but yea, ill feel down about "oh i cant hold a full conversation" or "oh my comprehension sucks" or "oh there are so many kanji/words i dont know", but i remember not knowing any kanji at all. i remember typing out my first sentences, and adding "and" or "because" to make a bigger sentence. i remember not knowing where this word ends and that one begins, and lots of other stuff, but i know all that now. we get too focused on what we cant do and it actively prevents us from getting there and its so silly. like, surely we can reach without beating ourselves up the whole time
"Comparison is the thief of joy."
I've always tried to play something that I'd want to listen to...if I listen to myself and think "I don't like that" then I go and make it better and the end result is something that I like. If you enjoy what you're doing that's really the best thing - people should enjoy making music, it's such a beautiful gift. Thanks Pat!
I've learned to simply say "thank you so much-I'm still working on it" which to me acknowledges the compliment and also the fact that I'm not satisfied yet - I'm still on the journey as I will always be.
I guess my point is, why does the person who gave you the compliment NEED to know you're "still working on it"? You can just say thank you and be grateful for where you are, even if you know that there's always something to work on. You made it this far. You don't need to convince yourself or anyone else that you're "humble".
@@PatrickBartleyMusic I'm not trying to convince myself or anyone else-rather just acknowledging that it's a never-ending journey. I don't know if they need to hear it or not. Some folks don't know. I talk to many people who don't know anything about jazz and aren't familiar with what it takes to really make music in this way. This is simply how I feel comfortable responding, wether they need to hear it or not. I think it's an inspiring message, in any art form.
Being a beginner accordionist starting a year ago it's important to reframe things so instead of saying I'm bad I say I'm a beginner still learning. As a way to not shut myself down but to acknowledge my state and accomplishment in a year.
I’m 24 and been playing 6 strings since I was 8/9. There was a period between ages 15-22 where I didn’t have a guitar and was homeless so it really stunted my growth and learning. All that time I never mentioned my ability to play guitar at all and If I did I would say “I play a little bit of guitar.” I’m not a fast player by any means, but at this point I still get plenty of “wows” from the music/rhythms I create when jamming. I always thought I would be rhythm/chords only player, but I’ve got a lot of people telling me now “you’d be a great lead too”. I’ve surpassed the point of “where I want to be” and had no clue because of years of not having an instrument, not jamming with anyone, and doubting/belittling my ability. I remember one time I was playing with the first person I ever jammed with, we were recording some demos and he told me to do a solo. I did the solo and we listened back to it, and in the middle of it he goes “wow man you sound good” meanwhile I’m thinking we were listening to HIS solo and saying in my head “that’s definitely not me” I don’t remember how I responded, but I’m really hoping I didn’t shut the compliment down. I think I said something along the lines of “is that really me? you really think so?” It meant a lot to me because I looked up to him more than any other musician in this world, probably still do. At the time we were 14/15 and he already knew how to play 5 different instruments and it was my first very recorded solo.
I’d like to add that phantom practice is real thing. During the 7 years I didn’t have a guitar to play, I would practice in my head and come up with licks and melodies, and solo to songs in my head, when I finally got a guitar again at 22, my ability had skyrocketed without practicing in 7 years. I could do licks I never thought I’d do, solo without hitting the wrong notes, effortlessly fret complicated chords, and I was 2x faster at playing my scales cleanly.
Dang haven't watched it yet but had to comment real quick: i really struggle with putting myself down when it comes to music. Like a lot.
Your comment about being the kid that was slightly better through school and having to keep yourself down hits hard. I was always the kid that practiced a lot so I kept pushing further and further ahead of my peers, but I felt like I couldn't come out and say I was good without being like "look at me I work hard and can play all this stuff." I still sometimes feel like I need to keep my head down but I'm trying to unlearn it because I'm not a top level player at all, but I'm soooo much better than I pretend to be in conversations with musicians but I always feel like admitting it is a bad thing even though it's not.
Patrick, you are a leader in the community, and I truly appreciate your words here. Coming from an american christian background where a premium was placed on humility, I've struggled with this for years (and still do). I appreciate you kindly calling us those of us out who need to hear it.
And your call to action for a more supportive community of cats and one that acknowledges individual progress in favor of the comparison to the best cat in town is one that I fully subscribe to (yes, even though you didn't ask for it).
You're the realest of them all maestro!
Struggling from life long confidence issues as well as perfectionism has really made it difficult for me to accept compliments, up till the point where I realise I come off as ungrateful - lost track of all the chase-up texts to people to say an earnest thank you after the show. That said, when people tell me to ‘keep going’, that always activates my gratitude, because they recognise that I’m a work in progress (which doesn’t feed into the imposter syndrome of usual compliments; it feels like it’s hard to discern between genuine praise and post-gig politeness) but still believe in the good I can do later.
I do this all the time. But because in my head sometimes feels like people gives compliments just to be politically correct. I also agree with your point. Self deprecation is bad for oneself. This video is very helpful
One should accept a compliment graciously. Thats what i do. Js. Its really simple.
Great stuff, Patrick. Thanks for you sharing your thoughts!
I used to do something similar (answering acompliment poorly), and at 50 it's a hard habit to break. Breaking it is something I've been really proud of myself for (only managed it recently).
When I decided to go pro, the head of the music union here asked me "are you good?" I'm not sure I answered it very well. I said "some other professional sax players say I am, but..." This was before I had gained more confidence and broke the habit.
Someone told me a long time ago just to say thank you. After all, I know I’m good, I know people enjoy listening. What I think isn’t as important as just accepting the compliment. That’s not arrogant, it’s just not false modesty.
Crucial video! "Thank you" really is the best way to reply whether someone is telling you rock, or you suck. Putting yourself down just lays all your insecurities out there for everyone else to see. Being thankful and grateful might not always get one further in life, but it always gives one the chance to leave a positive impression. I always remind myself when playing (especially when playing ticketed/cover charge) events: these people paid money because one way or another, they got the idea that they wanted to spend their night hearing the music I'm a part of. If you turn around and tell them after they bought the tickets, drinks, t shirt, etc that you think you suck, you pretty much just dissed their whole night, and you're essentially telling them they have bad judgement for coming to see you/your colleagues/bandleader! The negativity becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in that moment.
Writing this to remind myself of the things that resonated with me the most “Just because you have more to learn, doesn’t mean you haven’t learned anything”
“If I tell you I'm good, probably you will say I'm boasting. But if I tell you I'm not good, you'll know I'm lying.”
― Bruce Lee
Another great post Patrick! I think the point is to not be dismissive of those that pay you a compliment. After a gig, when a fellow musician pays me a compliment I usually return it as sincerely as I can-even if I wasn’t digging what I was doing. A non musician- I’ll usually thank them for participating as a audience member.
Hey Patrick, thanks a lot for this video. It openned my mind (and my heart)..
Exactly! If you make the person giving you the compliment feel like they have no taste, what do you think is going to happen? If someone says they really enjoyed my sax playing, I am sooo grateful! It makes me feel that all the work has not gone in vain. I'm often in situations where I feel "I gotta up my game" and then I go home and work on things. Positive vibrations!!!
Very interesting talk, Im certainly guilty of saying Im bad whenever I got a compliment
I've been guilty of so much of this to the point where it definitely has had negative effects, but I'm finally reaching a healthier attitude with the whole thing. Mindset is such a big deal, and it isn't built in a day either.
Thank you Patrick for doing this. Crippeling selfdoubt is such a major issue trying to perform a craft that everyone will have an opinion on. We are all vulnarble to critique but most of all ourself ❤
This was very educational and eye opening. Thank you patrick, truly
This is really awesome! I’m a freshman saxophonist, I’m pursuing jazz and classical and I’ve definitely been pushing myself down for a long time with my words, this video is great. Thanks so much man. Awesome to see a wonderful fluent jazz musician reach to other people. Thanks
Unfortunately all too many people can't find a middle ground. They either say: "I suck big time" or they have inflated egos and think they are great in spite of having glaring deficiencies musically. Only a few people are able to positively accept themselves as they are while at the same time knowing about their weaknesses and working to get better.
Yes, I totally agree. Saying "thank you" is also about appreciating that the listener came up to compliment you, and at the very least attend your performance! We need to stop thinking only about ourselves and how we measure up to our ideal.
I completely agree with this. I also feel like saying nah I'm not that good might give the impression to the person giving the compliment that you think they're naive for thinking you're good. Thank you for vocalizing this point!
This has something that I have always struggled with because I didn't know what to say without feeling like it bragging so I'll usually say thanks but I could have done better or if they played too I'll say they killed it
I am one of those people who is an outcast for being a better player but this helps a lot with mentality and being better thank you
This video is not too long at all. It just felt like I heard so much that resonated, and it felt fast actually. And I feel like it hit every mark with me. For example, in my rehearsals in big band, as lead alto, I always kinda hold back when it came to being loud or not doing “too much” in my solos. And then I realized, especially since I am a non jazz major, I gotta cherish every time I play. Like our performances are only twice a semester and only in the spring, so I’ve realized I will put every ounce of my being into what I play. I truly respect you even more now as person and a musician because it was a different video of your’s where I realized, why am I not putting everything into my solos when this is my opportunity with complete freedom to express myself. With our first performance just having passed, I got so many compliments and I really just thought like, no matter what people think, I love my saxophone so why put myself down. Thank you Patrick, truly are a giant of today’s scene and such a positive force
My grandfather told me about this same topic 9 years ago. I could play better than the average player but still wanted to sound humble by declining a compliment after a performance. I’d even start talking about points in the music where I made some mistakes. My grandfather told me “when someone comes up to you and compliments your playing, just humbly say thank you and that you appreciate the compliment and move on! They don’t need the excuses!” That stuck with me! Glad you spoke on this topic.
I really needed to hear this. Thank you so much.
I think the whole “jazz humble” thing comes from the idea that even the greatest masters say that they are still learning and are students of the music. “If they’re still learning then I definitely am too” kind of a mindset. That’s definitely how I’ve justified this behavior from myself in the past. Great video as always!
Everyone should always stay learning! But that doesn't mean we should diminish what we've already achieved. I don't think Bird, Trane, Miles, Duke, Pops, Cannonball, etc. ever said "nah, man, I'm not really..." After getting a compliment!
love your music and your channel. you inspire me. cheers from France!
You hit some very important points.
I am very guilty of calling myself bad, because I often feel that people are just trying to encourage me, even though I feel it's obvious that I messed up, or fell below my own expected standard, in a performance. I definitely need to stop doing that.
Thanks for the shake up.
Jazz has been a major part of my life but the pursuit that I actually learned this lesson in was gaming! Overwatch specifically, I was playing in tournaments and had major confidence issues in my ability to play well. I became somewhat notorious in my group for talking down to myself if I ever made a mistake and it made me a real pain to be around in hindsight. Eventually one day one of the guys in our server had to take me aside and talk. I remember everything he said word for word, he told me: "I get why you feel this way, really. But these guys have watched you grow from just learning to being one of the better players around here. And a lot of them skill-wise are still where they were when you started. You've been rolling us in these games, if you're calling yourself trash, what does that make us?"
That was really eye-opening for me, and it helped me realize just how damaging that kind of negative self-talk can actually be for OTHER people's self confidence (for music this would be a matter of musicians talking to other musicians). If they watch someone they see as really good or better than them talk down to themselves about their ability, how do you think it makes those people feel about themselves and their own abilities?
Being willing to accept yourself as being good at something if you're good at it can actually be really healthy for the self-confidence of those around you doing the same thing as you, and that's something that I think we often forget about when we think about staying "humble".
Here in my community the script goes something like this:
Them: How was your weekend?
Me: Great! I played some games and a lot of saxophone.
Them: How long have you been playing?
Me: 36 years, to varying levels of intensity.
Them: Oh then you have to be good.
Me: Yeah, I do pretty well. There’s always something to work on.
This seems to be effective.
This is such an incredibly hard habit to break once you start doing it. Even though I've gotten to the point that I don't say it out loud whenever someone gives me a compliment, I still think it. It's a fine line between understanding and positively accepting your limitations, failures, and mistakes and then actually working to fix it, versus negatively accepting your limitations, etc, and allowing those to keep you held down. I'm mostly still in the latter of those two and haven't learned how to stop.
You’re a good psychologist…! 👍💐
I'm one of those who used to argue that I suck when folks would give me a compliment. Then, one day my mentor told me to stop it. Just say thank you. That's what I do now so as to not insult the one giving me that compliment. Yes, I still want to tell them I'm bad but I know that the real issue is wanting to play better. We all want that. It's self defeating to be always self deprecating. Good subject. Thanks Patrick !!
I had a teacher that chewed me out over this in college during a lesson, haha.
Glad you’re speaking up on this for up-and-coming musicians to hear.
Excellent advice, i'm gonna remember this.
I had to learn how to take compliments and just say “thanks”. When you pull the “oh no I’m not that good” thing, it offends people because you’re low key telling them they don’t know what they’re talking about or they’re lying to blow smoke up you’re @$$. I’ve even had people say “Hey bro, you do know you’re really good”…and now I just say…”I know”…as matter of factly as possible because to me, being good isn’t the point…the point is, how did I serve the music.
I don’t think I’ve had this problem because, if anything, I tend to be arrogant about my own skill, but it has definitely irked me when people say that because it comes off as being coy and trying to get more compliments. I realize that’s not actually what’s usually going on, but that’s the vibe it gives off, which can be annoying.
Ever since i got my tenor sax about 5 months ago, I've always wanted to be better and better, and I think that it makes it really hard for me to feel like im getting any better at all. I'm obsessed with dexter gordon, and the more i listen to him the more i realise how far away i am from reaching that peak. its discouraging when ive been playing sax for 5 years(alto) and im still not as good as i should be. always been a tough thing for me to fix 😮💨
This is real. Thank you.
Thanks, agreed,😊
Thanks Patrick, I'll try)
May God bless this cat for all the game he’s giving. Thanks man!
Thanks for your insight!
Important subject...
Man, this is gold! It means so much to me. This is so hard to me you know? The "Nah Nah" thing happens to me so many times. It hapened to me yesterday.
I know I have a lot to improve and I don't feel I play more than the other friends I know but thanks for making this video. I'll never do It again in my life. This is a life lesson I will remember forever. Thank you!
Thank you for all your wonderful, insightful and helpful content!
I've been playing profesionally for over 20 years（ｒｎB, funk, reggae, hip hop, jazz etc) and I still struggle with how to take compliments. A lot has to do with the culture I grew up in and the "tall poppy syndrome." that I grew up seeing in the 70's and 80's growing up in N.Z. (I'm now based in Japan.)
The long term effects of that really are harmful to your latter years, which I still have to deal with today to some degree.
I love your energy man. Discovered you via Emmet Cohen's vids. Subscribed!!!