Jungling is LOSING you games - A response to
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- Опубликовано: 9 окт 2024
- Your Deadlock's video: • Master This Jungle Pat...
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PLEASE be respectful to Drongo in the comments. His content is overall great, but this video had too many new player traps in it for me not to respond. I hope this was helpful to everyone! I made the same exact mistakes when I was a newer player, so I completely understand.
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Great video, but sometimes you didnt pay enough attention to details.
For example somewhere around 8:00 when abrams attacks him you wonder why he runs when he has 13k souls vs abrams 6k.
You didnt see that Seven has 6k in his stash, not in items, so its really abrams 6k vs seven 7k, which is in Abrams favor imo.
Upd. My bad, shoud ve watch video longer:D
@@matveysdvizhkov7089 Valid criticism! Although, I would argue that he still benefits from boons having a ton more souls, and that he *should* have spent his souls earlier, but you are correct.
I think your title is too inflamitory and too prone to give people the wrong idea and it should be something like "not pushing advantages is loaing you games" because jungling especially in your enemies jungle to steal their potential econ after killing their guardians leaving them only the creep waves which will only give half souls in lanes without the t1 guardians.
Of course tho, the issue is people try playing too robotically and mind you, even though TECHNICALLY high mmr is a thing, its not even close enough to being an actual thing yet for people to throw around "high mmr" so casually... Wait til the tracker sites are allowed to look at match history again before saying atuff likw that cause it makes ya look a bit desperate...
It 100% loses games. People farm way too much. Higher MMR games end so much quicker because if you got an advantage please take advantage push and win. People prolong games far too much just to farm
had this issue in a low mmr (250) lobby twice yesterday, got patron to weakened, team wipe the enemy, and all 5 of my teammates go farm jungle for the rest of the game until we eventually lost
But that's the fun part, prolonging it :)
@@Drathrin Happens in Neko 600 EU as well lmao, people really love the farm (pls help, im dying inside)
Hey if anyone could let me know how to check my mmr I’d appreciate it 👍🏽
1100 neko score and it still happens to me.
But usually its just us loosing really fast because we have no flex slots because 0 lane pressure has been applied and I'm running back and forth between two lanes trying to save walkers from dying to creeps.
And then you have a seven in your game with 1.1k soul bag dying to the enemy just feeding them so hard.
I kept seeing these magic carpet sevens that would have no teamfight participation, didn’t know for a bit it was because a RUclips video. Thank you for making this.
Most seven players don't use it to its full potential. I use it to maximise my split push, taking more risky pushes on walkers and also stealing enemy jungle.
Classic gamers just playing how the internet man told them to 😂
Had a match earlier, my Seven joins me to push a walker, once their creepwave vanishes I move in to start attacking the walker, get jumped by Yamato. Think cool, easy 2v1 here so I stick about. Turn around to see my Seven hopping on his carpet into the electric sunset
I watched Drongo's video and tried his Seven build for a few games. It does work to get you ahead of the rest of your own team, as you're basically taking all the souls from camps so there's none for anybody else. It doesn't necessarily get you ahead of the enemy team because for everybody else it's a 5v6 and you, the strongest player on the team, are not helping or getting items that would enable you to help. This CAN work though, because it's certainly possible to carry a game eventually.
HOWEVER, Deathy's point that this wasn't a high level game is key here I think. Drongo's video is a strategy that can work in lower MMR games where teams aren't overly coordinated and let you get away this this kind of thing by not pressing the advantage created by the strongest enemy player playing a selfish game. A skilled team also isn't going to get taken out by a single carry, nor will the game go long enough anyways to get to that point. I think Deathy is 100% correct that this is a losing strategy in high level play, but I think the audience for Drongo's video are probably people just doing matchmaking games in situations where this does work - a more casual game where you're just having fun flying around on a carpet and getting to feel like a massive carry eventually. This reminds me of the situation with Dynamo where at Deathy's level he's an S-tier character and for most people he's like a B+.
Is it bad advice if you're serious about learning the game and getting better as a player? Probably. I think it's good to see a video like this one pointing out the eventual flaws in that approach, with the reasons laid out and explained thoroughly along with advice on what you could be doing better. I know this video is helping me better understand the game.
For sure! The audience probably differs, and sure, his strategy works when not punished. Perspective is key definitely. Thanks for the support :)
I hate the kind of playstyle he (and all the other videos on how to CARRY EVERY GAME) encourage because its just you... outcompeting your team while leaving the heavy lifting to them. More than half of my games have one or more people who're deep into the hyperfarmer playstyle and that just means the rest of the team has scraps to work with and are playing on the backfoot the entire game.
Its easy to be the strongest person when you ignore all objectives and teamfights to get to that point, but it completely fucks over everyone else who's trying to yknow, play the game and desperately hold on. Its infuriatingly selfish to do in public lobbies where theres no coordination and the team doesn't go into things with the plan of juicing somoene.
There are a ton of Seven players that just constantly farm and it happens exactly as you say, the team fights lopsided fights and while Seven (it also applies to other heroes, happens with haze and wraith a lot too) has a high net worth, the enemy team is getting ahead by winning fights and pushing. It’s infuriating because people end the game thinking about how much better they are than their team because of net worth when in reality… THEY’RE the problem because they’re obsessed with farming. Not to mention it takes most (if not all) of the potential jungle farm from your teammates.
sometimes you need to be selfish, even in a lobby full of good players
@@eirin481 like... no? this is technically true because the word selfish is super vague but this kind of selfishness doesn't help anyone and will get you punished if the enemy team knows what they're doing even a little bit.
If this kind of strategy wins you a game, playing like not an asshole would have won you that game without forcing your team to pick up your slack and play on handicap for half an hour.
Farming is important, but hyperfixating on farming doesn't accomplish anything other than frustrating your teammates, throwing some games (because wow fun fact its really hard to hold objectives when you're playing 5v6 and someone is gobbling 80% of the farm on your side of the map) and making you feel special.
A great point is not missing creeps over getting far away camps. You are getting less souls and losing objectives. Getting camps without missing creeps is the way to get an insane lead.
Actually mindblown that Drongo didn't immediately steal the church camp at 10 minutes considering how much he tunneled on camps at 7min. It's like are you even looking at the map?
He could steal the 2 camps to the left of the walker too,he maxed ball which can solo farm these,you barely need to shoot..
For real, he didn't even need to stick around. Just toss a ball in there, push the next wave into their walker and take the garage camp after. It"s so simple
Dude he's 100% not looking at the map. The walker was free af, all 6 enemy team were visible on the map and accounted for
Personally I was mindblown that he didn't pressure walker THEN backoff and grab that camp. He had map vision of all 6 enemies, and would've seen he was completely open to pressure or even TAKE it for free.
Tunnel vision happens to everyone
This is a classic filter of people that know MOBAS vs people that don’t.
Immediately could tell that seven’s mistake was poor wave management while jungling.
Letting your enemy out farm you in creeps and giving them free access to their jungle just because you won lane is basically giving the enemy a free lay up to catch up.
This exactly. It's been happening a lot in my recent games and I keep telling these people that this is a moba, push objectives once you made a good engage. There's a reason a person pushing objectives and waves has more souls than a person clearing jungle.
Absolutely, 100%.
Absolutely, having spent 4.5k hours in Dota, it is just my habit to constantly check minimap and determine if I need to farm a certain lane. But a lot of my friends coming from fps games struggle so much at this.
Never played any moba in my life, only Monday Night Combat, if you consider that a moba and what Deathy said is just common sense, nothing really to be elitist about.
@@inflamor you say common sense but lack of macro is a recurring issue across all MOBAs. It is not elitist to call out bad macro fundamentally. A lot of people cannot pinpoint specific mistakes in a 50 min game sometimes; the point of this video is to show how sometimes a loss starts from poor habits and bad plays early on that can be prevented with more awareness. Simply calling that elitism really sells short how much analysis and meta understanding can come into mastering a MOBA.
Playing with a teammate that is jungling all game is annoying. If I happen to fall behind in souls and need to jungle it isnt great seeing 0 open jungle camps on our side of the map
There being jungle camps there means they're going unused. Might as well (if it won't impact pushing).
@@pipp972if it doesn’t impact pushing OR team fight involvement. You getting a few hundred souls ahead while your team fights lopsided fights isn’t worth it either.
@@UnbearablePandamonium im 95% youre teamfighting way too often if the map has jungle camps alive
It's a balancing act in both directions. Sometimes one player has nothing to do and should be farming jungle, regardless of whether or not their net worth is high etc. Def don't want to "save" camps for the sake of someone else unless they ask you to because they're coming to grab them immediately.
@@WorldOnexuS oh yeah, I forgot, you should clear the entire jungle before ever trying to gank or rotate to push lol
Jungling is only good if you’re doing it efficiently. Spending all of your time running from jungle camp to jungle camp typically hurts you more than it helps, which is the entire point of this video lol
I love having my seven full time jungle 8h job so we can easily loose game because he needs 60k to start fighting XD
needs 30k souls to get his jungle kit to farm his 30k carry kit (try not to buy carry kit first challenge)
One thing I really like about Deadlock compared to other mobas I've played is that there's so much reward for being active on the map that playing jungle simulator is usually an inefficient use of your time. Crates, boxes and the bridge buffs reward you for rotating between lanes and encourage ganking, and objectives giving flex spots to give teams more incentive to push both lead to more fights and engagements (which are more fun!) and you can come out with just as many souls from doing these things as afk farming your own jungle(if not arguably more since you're actively contributing to your team winning by taking objectives, and you're denying souls from the other team).
5:45 quite frankly i wouldnt even go for enemy jungle here, i think you could just straight up take walker. Every enemy is occupied and if any of them move to respond it almost guarantees the associated Guardian probably just dies.
It's so easy to just toss a ball into the camp and then push the next wave.
I was about to comment this...
I get it, he likes to jungle but objetives win your game.
He had a free walker, lash was 2 lanes away.
Yeah seeing lash on other lane i would have take church jungle and kill walker tbh. Idk what deathy think about that
Not only do objectives win games but getting flex slots is huge. Terrible playing with 0 unlocked. Walker is also insane amount of gold for the team
I feel like this is common knowledge on MOBAs
You only farm jungle, when there are no minions to farm.
Because minions die will die eventually. Jungle monsters don't
I never watched the original video, while watching this one I was shocked when he ignored the enemy jungle right next to him to go back to his own jungle LMAO
Seven ball clears the church instantly too
Lol for real
you realize even if you watch top 10 players streams youll see 'obvious' mistakes... right? theres a lot to keep track of and nobody can play a perfect game
@@S1000rr-7 I think you misunderstood, that decision he made showed a clear lack of understanding of the game. It wasnt just a simple oversight.
@@S1000rr-7Wel it’s possible he didn’t notice the map. But still that was like a inexperience mistake. I doubt the top players will make this same one.
YES! I tried his exact build and did the jingling in a few games and I consistently lost games. I would be 10k souls ahead of everyone else in the lobby in the mid game, but my team would all be feeding and struggling to take or defend any objectives because I was effectively useless to them. Then, by the time my build was online, the game was already effectively over.
I think that's because ppl tend to listen to youtubers more than their own mind. Build itself is amazing, especially when you get past 25k souls. Its farming build, yes, but its also pushing build. Correct way of playing it should be consistently applying pressure to make at least 1 person to stay and outpush lane, making it 5vs5 on map, when you weave between pushing and farming jungle camps, making you stronger than enemy laner that need to make a choice every wave (either stay and defend lane, or go into jungle/other lane and risk loosing walker). This is split-pushing build, imo, so you should play it like one. Not trade waves for jungle, but instead weave jungle when you can't push. And it has really strong pushing potential, while also getting nice 1vs1 about 25-30k hitmark, making it basically old hullbraker fiora. Ppl don't respect how much taking an enemy walker gives just yet.
To be fair, most people are just bad at this game yet. People take all sorts of useless fights being behind or not having enough numbers. So it all comes down to you either constantly baby sit your team and be relatively poor to them or you vacuum the map to eventually be a 1v11 monster.
the magic carpet buy fucking killed me
its a popular seven build rn for some reason all the sevens in my lobbies are rushing magic carpet lol
nothing more fun than seeing enemy seven buy magic carpet first item and then just being totally useless with it
It lets you side lane and since seven is being built focusing his 3 and gun damage he wants to 1v1 people and then run away if he gets ganked@@MrKyle700
@@alexihemmoranta297yeah magic carpet is only good if you're a threat in the side lane.
god awful idea on seven lol. hes already one of the fastest characters in the game movement speed wise
peoples lack of understanding that when you are jungling you are giving space for the enemy to do things on the map is the biggest problem i see with lots of newer moba players. Map control is everything in any MOBA and you are giving that up when jungling like Seven does allll game. great vid deathyyy
People hating before even watching the video... How do you even get this many dislikes within 5 minutes of the video being posted? It's an honest and constructive critique.
because it is deathy opinion, not his informed opinion plus he shit talks
@@RoqueMatusIII 1000x more informed than the noob who made the original video
@@RoqueMatusIII Might wanna try forming a thought there. Informed opinions hold experience... You sound like you have zero.
Because people want to be told what to think instead of think for themselves. "RUclipsr told me what copy and paste thoughts to hold and what items to buy" They've placed the value of "their" idea on themselves. Telling them the opposite of what they were told to think is an attack on them, and they can't process it because they barely processed the original thought. It would require self reflection as a first step.
@@RoqueMatusIII he's not shit talking anyone? He's just providing constructive feedback
One aspect that would be valuable to mention is how to play with/around these inefficiencies. It certainly sucks to need to be beholden to a greedy clown who knows nothing but farming jungle camps, but in a team game you don't want to make a bad situation worse by feeding away the team's lead and negating the potential advantage a heavily farmed teammate can bring.
In the case of Drongo's initial misplay in dying to the Abrams, if literally anyone on the team opened their eyes and deliberately force objectives on the side of the map where their strongest teammate is, the match could look considerably different with no change to how Drongo was playing. Approaching from the angle of "well X/Y/Z on my team is playing incorrectly" isn't going to win you more matches - it's how you individually respond to circumstances and try to turn a disadvantageous situation into a favorable outcome. That's where I think most of the "farming patterns" content for Deadlock falls well short of how optimized farming patterns have become in Dota, where securing resources is the absolute bare minimum expectation.
Great video, and just in time. Was explainign to my friend while watching him play, to never miss a creep wave in favor of jungle, not only because of the spul loss, but because you want to put that lane pressure on the enemy team, to give you more space for things like the Urn, mid boss, tower pressure/safety of your own towers, bridge buff, so on and so on.
I don't have much hours clocked in Deadlock yet, but I have been playing Dota for over dozen of years now and I remember you saying at one point that Seven is like Anti-Mage, so I kept playing him simmilarly with a success. I saw the video and had simmilar concerns, so I'm glad someone else said that. I was especially confused about what you said at the end. People talk about farming jungle constantly and farming patterns and I was wondering like... "but there are 5 other people wanting to jungle too, there isn't even close to enough camps to do that". I guess the Dota mentality of flash farimng - "push one lane and go to another while clearing every camp on the way" works here as well. Thanks.
Brother, thank GOD you made this. That video was blowing my mind. "It's ok to let tower fall so you can farm safely. Jungle instead" reminds me of something a gold LoL player would say.
I was confused by the fact that he even mentioned in his video "jungle camps stay there, while creeps that die to towers disappear forever..." and then proceeds to lose lane farm and half a tower for the sake of a couple jungle camps.
I appreciate people making content, especially stuff surrounding info for newer players like when camps spawn and why they are important, but teaching BAD fundamentals is just wild.
That sentiment is *sometimes* true, for example your guardian is already low hp and there are 2 people in your lane pushing it. Better to just back up take the corner camps and catch the wave at your walker, unless your team can immediately help defend. Dying under guardian only for it to fall anyway feels very bad.
@@Ganobrator You're definitely right, but there's so much nuance to that scenario, and none of it applies to the vid the guy posted.
In the case that you're just simply screwed in the matchup, it for sure makes sense to let tower fall and farm in front of walker instead of dying 4 times AND losing tower anyway, provided you warn your team that you're going to lose the guardian to be prepared for ganks etc, but the idea that letting t1 fall early for the sake of jungle camps because you can then farm safely afterwards is just outright bad.
You won't win every lane and it's important to know what you can do to minimize that impact, but purposely giving the enemy team map pressure and team-wide souls early so you can get 300 souls from a jungle camp is seriously bananas
I will do the devil advocate job here:
His tower lose half of it hp because he fuck up the q so it take him more time to clear the camp.
And for his statement about let tower fall, my understand for that is going back to defend sidelane tower constantly when try to excel your networth is not really worth it. The solution actually is ask people to cover the lane for you when you go for additional jungle camp.
His fixation on his side jungle camp is what dog to me. He can get way more value from stealing camp but he always go back to his side ones.
I try his build on relatively high rank lobby and the time i start to farm fast, there is no camp on the map since people drive-by all the camp close to them when the match is balance. I can see the build is really good when your team start winning since you have camp that you can clear fast and still go with the team to fight after.
Along with all these other comments, i want to mention that this is NOT league of legends, and towers are NOT as strong as in league. If you are pushed in constantly since you dont have "prio" due to your character, you could poke em out, get a teammate or push out the wave; each character should have some kind of all in/poke/wave clear to be able to lane. If they're gone, you can push a huge wave of 8-12 minions, so you could go around and jungle after, since pushing up to their tower isnt as safe (since you dont have prio!).
If you get completely outpoked and out-cs'd (which happens with these towers), you need to accept that you wont be useful for the first 15-20 minutes, so play as safe as you can.
Minions are first, then jungle. If you have free time, look at map (does anyone need help/do you need to be somewhere?) if not go jungle.
If you leave your turret to fall you lose so much map pressure and then have to spend the rest of your time baby sitting that lane, slowly farming creeps while enemy takes your jungle and goes around the map, in which case its over.
The reason this guy in the video thought it was a good idead was probably because he was playing against equally clueless players. If you farm the entire jungle and get fed and carry your team while ignoring the basics, then yeah you're gonna get fucked at higher ranks when they capitalize on your (huge) mistakes.
Let league/dota players do the fundamentals of mobas, dunning kreuger effect is endless in them (mobas)
I disagreed vehemently with Drongos choices from the passive early build to the itemisation and glad you made a response to steer unsuspecting new players away from bad approaches.
Thank you deathy for validating me. I wrote pretty much every single point you made in a comment on that video but he seemed to have deleted it.
I would love a video on the flip side of this: When and How to apply pressure, how to know when to defend a lane vs leaving to help pay pressure elsewhere on the map/gank. Those are things I struggle with a lot.
I main Haze, and a lot of my games feel like I'm just laning until I can afford Ricochet, which is often much longer than I feel is productive for my team, especially if I have a tough lane match up. Then I jungle to flesh out my build a little before trying to really join up with Team fights, but sometimes it feels like my team is already down significantly by the time I'm ready and able to help in a fight.
You should probably find players who came from MOBAs, especially from Dota 2.
8:25 he runs because half of his networth is souls, not items
A few points I think really need to be spoken about aswell, people farm the jungle so much they don't push free walkers when theres no one around to defend them all the damage done to left walker has been creeps and an early walker is pretty big.
That and to be fair to him when he was 13k souls and abrams was 6k all abrams money was in his items and sevens half of sevens networth was in his pocket so he didnt really have a soul advantage.
Also THANKYOU FOR MAKINGA VIDEO even at higher elo games I've had people just afk the jungle instead of pushing a lane I really hope they see this and stop it, also sucks how there's never any jungle to farm half the time, because someone decided to farm 1k souls and donate it to the enemies.
Given that all enemies are visible on the map at 6:10, and 4 are on the right side of the map, would it be reasonable to steal 1 jungle camp, then try to take the walker that has no one in lane?
Yes that’s the first thing I noticed. There were two waves on the walker. That should’ve been a free walker. The enemy team has really bad macro throughout his vod too so I assume this is just low Elo game and seven is capitalising off both teams not taking their jungles when lanes are shoved. This seven strat only works when you’re smurfing lmao. In my high Elo games. All sevens that did this type of behaviour got punished taking enemy jungles
The correct play is the reverse. Value walker over the jungle camp 10/10 times. He has full vision of the enemy team at that point, and the correct play is to pressure walker immediately, then back off and take the camp. Highly likely he would've been able to take the walker for free there, considering the closest enemies were pressured hard at green, and then 3 were posturing for a fight at blue.
He also had a double creep wave pushing into walker, and would've absolutely melted it.
@@terribletimmy2 100% surge + 2-3 orbs it dies fast ... and then church in return :)
@@terribletimmy2 Yeah, you might get pushed off of guardian at worst, but you would still have your jungle camp which is still gonna be there. The guardian is actively decreasing in risk to reward ratio/value, while the camp will almost always be free.
Drongo feeding literally brought abrams back into the game, who then proceeded to crush the midgame and cause the match to be 50+ mins
yeah lmao abrams picked up his ball and had the souls lead later in midgame, that shit was dangerous
I love when my haze sits in jungle all game and still goes 1/ 12/2
Cheat sheet for (approximate) creep values:
Small Jungle mob = 1/2 of a Lane creep
Medium Jungle mob = 1 Lane creep
Large Jungle mob = 3 Lane creeps
So if you lose a single wave of 4 creeps to farm a 3x medium camp, you're worse off than just staying in lane, not only because you got less souls, but you also consumed a resource that'll always be there (the jungle camp since you can farm it any time) for a resource that disappears and never comes back (the lane creeps).
Therefore you also lose "potential efficiency" later on when let's say you can't farm lane cause it's pushed up, but you've already taken the camp before so now you're both already down in souls, plus you made your life harder by not saving the camps for farming during lane downtime.
I think the most important summary point in this video is about map control. pushing waves, farming enemy jungle, taking buffs, things like this can actually be summarized as map control. And it is simple: the more map control you have, the better you can extract souls farms from the map and deny enemies from doing it.
This concept in moba actually comes from moba games early rts roots: almost all rts games have limited resources per map space and thus emphasize map control for leads and wins. Drongo is an AOE guy so he must understand this concept well, I feel its just deadlock is too wrapped up as a fps game that a lot of people are not getting the big pictures, even from a rts background
It's funny cause people really liked his seven guide from what I've seen in the comments and called it one of the best guides out there and his strat was basically to let the enemy push the guardian for free and jungle instead.
He gives newer players a simple gameplan and tells them they can abandon lane and just farm jungle instead, which is exactly what they wanna hear and do anyways, combined with seven being one of the easier kits to handle, so I guess it makes sense people liked it.
In minute 4:38, the biggest mistake i was thinking that u didn't mention was not pushing the walker, you can clearly see the 6 enemy players on the map and lash on a far lane, you can argue that he does not have the damage but he will make more than 1 enemy to retreat to defend it and lost farm while doing so, or they could have ignore it and lost a walker + take their JG
EDIT:
minute 7:22 and no one went to defend the walker so he could have made a way better play if he just went for it at the start and then take their jg
Wouldn't the bigger mistake at 10 minutes be not attacking the walker to apply pressure? He can see at least 5 of the other team on his map. Apply pressure on the walker then take their camps on the way out if they contest or if you take it
He sees all 6... you get walker for free there and then get that church camp on ur way back
as a former dota player, farming jungle just to watch your wallet get bigger without actually spending the gold is 100% game losing
Shove waves -> Jungle -> Shove waves again
Rinse and repeat. Slot this in when it calls for it -> Fight when ult is up or when it's nearby -> farm again, or -> help with objectives
You can farm and still have an impact at the same time, it's all about the balance
Yeah, this is a classic and basic DotA move, especially for carries.
I can forgive the guy if he hasn't played any MOBAs though, but if he has...
Exactly. The way to implement this is to constantly look at map even when farming waves/jungle. along with that.
'can i help with this fight? is it worth it?; do we get anything from it, do we have a chance to win it?' if not, 'are there waves i need to push out, jungle camps to clear or other objectives?' The answer to one of these is always yes or in rare instances go buy. EZ farm while having the most kill participation in the lobby. Tempo, constantly doing something useful
@@lazylonewolf AM as a carry game yea? I feel you bro.
@@NeoArmstrong. Not too into AM, Slark is my main carry.
Even then: kill creep wave with Dark Pact > jungle > repeat if it's safe. Pushes the waves to pressure the towers, while I minimize being visible and maximizing gold/exp. Maybe gank or help out in teamfights if it's near.
I'm still a dummy in Deadlock though so I still don't know when/how/what items to jungle since there are a lot of new things to learn first😅
@@lazylonewolf I mean my game was AM as carry, farm all game have zero impact 'till they got mega creep but he still farm top gpm but can't do shit except hit creep lmao.
I also think the mindset of people super focused on jungling is really selfish and honestly a little toxic. He says at one point in the video to make sure you get the double Sinner's Sacrifice room right away to "guarantee our allies don't steal it away from us", but to me letting a teammate farm is just as good as if I were to get it. If I'm playing a hero who can clear waves and camps quickly I will even intentionally leave the slot machines for a teammate to take since it can be even more useful for heroes that can't farm other things as efficiently.
I noticed a lot of the times people forget you can yonk them. then some guy kills like some guy afk farming for like 2k.
Pretty simple stuff really. 1) Get every tower/objective (buff/urn) you can. 2) Kill people if it doesn't take too much time or risk. 3) Last hit every creep in your lane that doesn't get you killed by ganks. 4) Hit some jungle creeps if nothing else to do.
Literally just do things in that priority order and you'll be at like 95% efficiency at all times.
this is the reality of deadlock or anygame that suddenly attracts an influx of new moba players: they underfarm, they learned about farming, they overfarm, they give up everything thinking farming will bring them back, drag the game to 50 minutes and lose. I'm sure someone has already made a bell curve meme where the mid 90 percentile sweats about gpm while the bottom and top 5 percentile don't entirely care about farming. Farming is important, when you're losing you do need to try to stall so that carries farm up, but don't set yourself up for failure from the beginning and only start playing the game from an disadvantageous endgame. For new players doing correct thing at correct time is far more important than farming.
We all had that anti-mage or spectre in our game that couldn't produce a bf/radiance till 30 minutes and are still deadset on getting them.
Jungling is 100% losing games.
That lighting ball seven build and video is so horrible
I've alternated between maxing Ball Lightning and maxing Power Surge (Static Charge, the stun, got nerfed recently.) Unless you get really farmed/fed, you're basically reliant on the stun to be a threat.
Blind leading the blind
Nah the build is fine. The playstyle is cooked.
Nah the build is great. Just use it more aggressively to push lanes. Also the build doesn't really max ball lightning, it's the classic SoP + Superior cooldown on power surge.
The lightning ball build is the only good part about the video lol, magic carpet on the other hand..
Honestly, at the 10 minute mark, I think Drongo should have gone for the walker. There was no one to contest that entire time, and he could have had all of those walker souls secured AND farmed their jumgle. From what I can tell, just about the ENTIRE enemy team were showing on the map. The creeps alone almost took it down.
Also LMFAO HE LOST 900 SOULS
So by 15 minutes he has given nearly an extra 1,700 souls to the Abrams. Nice
I know my comments might not become noticed by Deathy. But I want to spread the split push newbie agenda:
- Split pushing is more beneficial to you and your teammates. Regardless of the stage of the game.
- Split pushing creates space for your underfarmed teammates to farm.
- Split push opens up enemy jungle camps for us to grab.
- Split push is way more fun and adrenaline inducing than killing mobs.
- If you get the side guardians, you can secure urns easier.
- Distracting teamfights when you just pushing the walker solo. Helps your teammate.
Thanks for the great video. One question. At 6:00, would it be fine to push and attenpt to take the walker since there is a small teamfight on the center right lane?
I'd definitely agree with that take. He could have gotten the walker and maybe a walker camp if he optimized his ball too. That map pressure would have been nice since it was 5v6 since the Seven was farming till 20 minutes.
Yes, and the Lash was showing in another lane and super weak. Could easily have pushed that walker for a good 15 seconds
I took Drongo's playstyle and adapted it to be more viable. Essentially using magic carpet, SoP and superior cooldown to constantly apply pressure on enemy and also always prioritise urn runs using Seven's speed.
A player's highest value resource is time. People prioritize souls over time.
I 100% agree, watched that video today and seeing all that effort he put in to be above by 500-2000 souls when the enemy laner got to his guardian and was bouncing back... he shouldve looked into a denying, pressuring and killing his lane enemy, or looking for a roam to aid his neighbor lane instead of farming the jungle.
Jungling efficiently in MOBAs also include ganks and split pushing. I think alot of points Drongo makes are right because I see games where people don't even touch it at all even when they're behind and they have space. BUT, he also had opportunities to gank and push harder, before returning to jungling to keep that soul lead up. It's sort of funny because since it's on a new game, alot of people are struggling to grasp it, but lane tempo has existed for years, it's just been given a facelift.
I think drongo is going to get better faster than people who underprioritize neutral creep farm. Way too many of my games are just gung-ho 3/4 stacking mid on and off for 5 minutes at a time. I legitimately feel forced to jungle map because our jungle and side lanes go unfarmed otherwise. If just two of those people fanned out and didn't stand in creep vision for minutes at a time, then I wouldn't be "that guy", in their opinion.
i posted on discord a screenshot of my seven at 2.3k souls at 7min (his lane opponents were at 6k+) he started farming straight on t2 camps, lost his 700+ soul bag twice in 3min. He couldn't even farm properly because he was that underfed and ignored creeps killing walkers next to him farming camps
That video ruined so many games it's unreal. I can't even blame the video alone, people watching it and thinking that's all they need to do are to blame too
i have had games were 1 guy farms the whole map, gets way ahead of everyone in souls and then does nothing, does not helps in Team fights, doesn't gank, or carry, then blames the others members for having way less souls than him, and keeps farming, doing less dmg than everyone else in the team..... please don't be that guy, if u are going to take your teammates Jg, at least help them in Tf or ganks
Incredible video. This playstyle is taking over even mid-MMR lobbies. The lack of MOBA experience with these players who don’t care about map control is just awful to play with.
its hilarious that anyone is hating on deathy for this. some noob playing vs noobs puts out a video about jungling with no moba fundamentals 🤣
saw his aim in laning stage and im already done watching
Jungling can lose you games but the problem is people do it suboptimally. Definitely jungle the enemy jungle at any opportunity unless it costs you creep waves. You dont want to wipe your jungle camps unless you're super far behind and cant even lane.
This is basically the nasus build where you stay top lane and tunnel vision while your team is getting slammed across the board because you have the most souls but arent doing shit with them.
Had a 30+ kill game...broke 30 via a 5 kill streak (almost)single handedly wipe the team....did we push mid? did we push patron? shrine... at least? No, we knocked the nearest walker and everyone spent the 50-60 second deathtimers splitup in lane/jungle... except for me, managed to get the shrines on my own but no patron...3 teamfights later enemy team catches up...I failed to solo kill 5 of them because they all bought resist/actives to be anti-me....lost that game with 30+ kills and 5ish deaths...
I swear I played this exact match as the Yamato in this scenario (different players but it's 100% carbon copy even to the team picks) and it was ROUGH. Seven bragged at the end how he won us the game and that we should learn how to play but realistically we played a) without our own jungle for the entire game and b) as a 5v6 for 30+ minutes while this crazy mfer just slid around ONE lane and all of our jungle on a magic carpet. It took him 30 minutes to reach base guardians on his solo lane because his priority was obviously farming, and he kept claiming that he draws aggro when the enemy team knew they don't have to care because he wasn't gonna hit the objectives. So basically just because we were losing teamfights narrowly which baited the enemy team into focusing on fighting he had enough space to eventually farm their camps which allowed us to actually start winning. He was 10k ahead of the enemy and that was all so he could magic carpet away the moment anyone showed on his lane.
Now I know it's from a silly guide from an inexperienced player - and it makes so much sense. Had he turned his lead into a gank/fight at any point in the midgame we had a 22 minute game on our hands, instead we played for 50 mintues and had to snatch that game from them.
I agree with everything you said but a 700 neeko score lobby is like top 5 % of players. It's not good compared to you guys who scrim and play tournaments but it's like better than 95% of all players.
I see a lot of people just playing farming simulator instead of actually playing the game
At 5:00 what should he do next? I disagree with you on stealing enemy camps. The only enemy hero unaccounted for on the map is Abrams and he might've been visible just a moment ago. That means nobody is defending the walker currently and 6k Abrams alone shouldn't kill you. Talon ultimate is also on cooldown so that's not an issue either. Pushing the walker is 1000% the only correct play and keeping an eye on the map as you're doing it. When people disappear from the map you take the church camp on your way out. Nobody even showed up to defend it and the creep wave put the walker down to 25%. That's a free walker kill but nope, gotta jungle. When the game timer reaches 20 minutes they finally get this walker and their second flex slot. How much better would their team have done with that money and the extra slot earlier. Geist cleared the other walker at 16 minutes.
Taking enemy camps is good but lanes and objectives are always a priority as you correctly say. Lane creeps will die and not give any money if you aren't there to take them, the camps will only disappear when someone takes them. Wave first then camps and you get both. Camps first and the wave is gone. At 12:56 taking the next wave and then the sinners sacrifice means you get both, going to sacrifice immediately means you lose the wave. I mean he could've taken the next wave on the lane too.
Something not many understand is the scarcity of resources in this game. Someone on your team getting ahead means everyone else is pushed a little bit behind. It's much easier to get huge when you're playing with bad players because those resources your team won't capitalize on are yours to take. Likewise, if you are taking all the jungle off the map and you use those resources to buy a magic carpet with the only goal being to farm more, that's 6200 of your team's limited souls you're throwing away just to destroy your team's momentum.
Thank you so much for this. I've had so many games that go down the toilet because people don't understand that objectives > map pressure > jungle, and his video along with other videos praising how great jungling is made me fear that the situation was about to get worse. Also, these people don't understand that when you clean up your own jungle, that's also denying resources to your own team members, and forces your team to play 5v6.
THANK YOU! I confronted my friend who was doing this build and but his argument was that his "stats/souls" were better so I dont have a say. But me as Mo & Krill I depend on follow ups and more team work. Seeing him play back and hesistant in fights, and just running with carpet really pissed me off.
I play a decent bit of different heroes and I take jungles differently on each one. On Infernus I do it more often than when I play mirage where I rarely do it. I just feel like some heros need the jungle more than I do as mirage since he's pretty strong with just a few items and the ones I get I can get them fast enough just handling creep waves
there isnt enough jungle to go around for the team. unless you literally have nothing else to do, or you can clear it incredibly fast, it slows down the pace and interaction with your team a lot
He's an AOE player
he's all about farming
Funny to see this video because last night I had a ONE HOUR match that was very back and forth until we finally won (my team had a bit of a lead for a while but the enemy was pushing waves better than my team and I was struggling a bit as Abrams early, also had an extraordinarily boring lane that lasted 15 minutes somehow)
Anyway the bit that made this relevant in particular is the enemy team had a Seven with 90k souls. He did also have like 1/3 of his team's kills so I can't say he was necessarily inactive but I thought it was funny.
Also at the end both teams were within 1000 souls of each other, both teams had 382k and there was only a 1 kill diff between the teams. Crazy how even it ended up.
Drongo got bullied off Beyond All Reason, now he’s getting bullied off Deadlock. You love to see it.
The biggest thing is that people jungle, get A LOT of unsecured souls, engage in an unnecessary teamfight, and throw it all away to enemy carries, creating sometimes 2-4k souls disparity between teams, which is crazy. And then they will just go on thinking they need to farm even more, will get picked and feed souls again, even furthering the situation.
Don't just farm jungle people, it's not worth it. Waves give more souls AND are momentarily secured. Plus you can deny souls for even more farm on lane.
ever since that video ive been seeing WAY too much jungling. ill have multiple people on my team trying to hyper farm, eating each others food constantly, then 1 guy will get the lucky timing and get big but everyone else is still hungry and then we're down 2 walkers, all guardians, and the enemy is still defending their last guardian so im starved of flex slots
Thank you for voicing this. I hate players with this mentality thinking that the point of mid game is farming time and doing nothing else to apply pressure until they realize their 3 walkers are gone and still end up behind on souls. I lose too many games because of teammates like this.
I think the game is about finding a balance between all the possible things you could be doing. Ive seen players who farm up and proceed to destroy the lobby. I myself neglected teamfights.
Learning when to farm optimally is something we're all going to work on at some part in our learning curve... and it might change with a balance patch. Im happy to see the community have the discussion.
I can imagine some people not liking the flavor of this video with how directed it is at another CC's take, but some things need to be said. I would say it can come across a bit nit-picky and elitist, but i feel like your just dedicated to developing an understanding of the game and the best strategies and want to push the community in the right direction.
His item build is actually ok if you just exclude the magic carpet/invincibility bullshit.
Seven can just press 3 with surge of power and fleetfoot and run people down. Just press 2 before,really straightforward hero that doesn’t need THAT much souls to play the game.
You can just tell the guy has never played dota, the way you farm almost directly translates over to deadlock in pushing waves and taking unsafe farm vs safe and making map pressure via farming. I haven't watched the tournaments and idk who exactly are the best players atm but I implore people who want to go learn how to farm without griefing your team to go watch either a pro dota player play carry or the multiple videos on how to farm in general. The thing that makes this video even worse is the fact that it's on seven who I think is the best hero in the game for taking unsafe farm and farming enemy jungle with nearly 0 fear.
In my games there are so many open lanes all the time. It is immediatily noticable when a game is from a higher matchmaking when people occupy free lanes as much as possible, and only jungle when there is dead time or while rotating.
8:30 he has 6k lead over Abrams, but notice that he is sitting on ~6k backpacked souls and ~1k of that are unclaimeds. I'm not saying that he is not killing Abrams there (especially that we heard he just whiffed his ult), but his advantage isn't really capitalized on. Maybe this is just a strategic reflex - if he kills Abrams, he scores ~500 souls, if he dies somehow, he gives 1500 to the enemy which is a high swing
he actually ended up dying because he hesitated whether he should commit to the play or run so he really did neither of those in the end
Thnx so much for this bro. Deadlock is my first moba and I’ve been watching a bunch of vids on how to get better and win games. A lottt of videos recommend to be constantly jungling, so obviously that’s how I’ve been playing my games lol. Will be taking this advice now.
Totally agree. Jingling is only usedul if you do it quick while changing lanes, or while you don’t have a creep wave.
this is overall a good video but he never said this is a super high MMR strat, and 99% of viewers arent superhigh MMR either. overall you make good points
while you give a lot to learn from, i think you can learn from him as well because the way he puts the build in-game is very helpful having the 'final item' loadouts. again most of us arent top players so we dont always know what to sell and what to keep, so that part of his build helps a lot. i think part of the reason people are succeeding with this build is because it gives users a defined path of action and a clear itemization path
just like in dota the strongest players take the most dangerous farm / objectives.
If your the strongest player on the team and go back to farm back camps your hard griefing your team. Cool you have the highest networth at the defeat screen and lowest player damage / obj dmg.
I'd love a follow up on how to go about early fights, depending on whether you have a soul advantage or not.
My games also have the problem where the rest of my team 5 mans at 10mins while I have to push out all the lanes myself, which I can never do safely because my team is full sending down mid. Ultimately, I cannot push lanes far and so I resign myself to farming our jungle, which has also not been farmed.
when I'm ahead in lane I always shove the lane so they can't get free damage on the turret, then look for ganks, then enemy jungle, then my own jungle
I've seen people even in high mmr that'll let creeps take their guardian/walker while they farm a camp that's worth less than the creeps in the wave
(I'm pretty low MMR so if I'm wrong about anything please correct me, I'm still learning) I watched his video earlier today and I was a bit confused why he was stealing jungle from his own teammates in a lane over when there was a fight nearby. At 7:20, going to 2v1 the Grey Talon might have saved his Infernus from dying. Then he could've taken the slots on his way back to left lane. At 8:00, the Abrams fight, I think running was the right play because he had 5k in unspent souls so from his perspective, it looks like a 7k vs 6k fight. Of course, buying items first (before magic carpet) seems like a missed opportunity but we can't change that once he engages with Abrams.
Out of curiosity, do you think anti-jungling by leaving just one monster is a good strategy? Or should you just take it yourself and move on? Also, I think I have a better understanding of when to get back to lanes for creeps, but with regard to pushing objectives, when do you think it’s an appropriate time to gank vs jungle?
it's good if you do it on the enemy camp. You can jungle when you shoved your lane into their side, just make sure you catch the next trooper wave when they get back to yours so it's a matter of timing. That's why pushing their guardian as early as you can is pretty good. You can shove your lane harder which means you have more time to do other stuff, like ganking or falling back to your jungle or clearing the enemy jungle camps, like he said. You can look for ganks if they're on a nearby lane. If you win the fight you can press further and push their guardian if you can. imo when there's things to be done, like guardians, urn, whatever then you really shouldn't be jungling. Jungle in between objectives like hopping into another lane to help push you can kill a jungle camp or two while on the way there
Another thing I noticed is that his overfarming (literally taking half the map in terms of camps) may increase his personal souls, but ends up not increasing his teams souls at all. When the inner left lane pushed out their lane, they had no camps to take so they can either go gank or overpush. These laners aren't really ahead however and you end up with your team taking bad fights, without being ahead, since all the teamsouls are on you, who's farming.
The seven is proving that having the most money doesnt mean you are the strongest
When you buy magic carpet as 1st 6k item when you can go with a damage option is ridiculous
10:30 going magic carpet here is so wild lmao, he even has an open flex slot he could get majestic leap which is already an insanely broken movement item (especially when you use the drop double jump tech) AND is almost mandatory late game to get well positioned ultis as seven. that and tesla bullets and he could basically perma shove out two lanes by himself at only 14 minutes
Tesla bullets are nigh worthless on seven. You already have a much better version as a 3 and a ball that snipes troopers as a 1.
Even the fire rate, which is beneficial for seven, has a diminished effect due to his burst delay.
@@quanwashington yeah theres probably much better options than tesla, was just thinking about 3k items that would make him farm faster, in retrospect something like improved spirit or cooldown would probably be better in this situation. even so my point stands, a damage 3k and majestic leap would be so much of a better spike here than magic carpet lmao
when i duo with my friends we get people who jungle while a wave is right up at our walker and it's incredibly cringe
About dying to the Abrams while being ahead, in this specific case, no idea if this was his thinking at all, but he was 13k souls vs 7k Abrams, but he had 6k unspent souls, so realistically he was only on 8k souls in this particular fight.
Something that I believe went completely unadressed is that your personal farm, however high it might be, can't compare to six enemy players farming poorly or better. That's why you joining teamfights - not for money, but to deny enemy money and to protect your team from losing that farm time, to have stronger lanes for more vision and freedom of movement
I had a game (low mmr pub) where one guy on our team was farming the enemy jungle when we were pushing their base. We got their shrines and patron then got wiped. Then we had another teamfight in our base, got wiped again and lost. The guy was still farming jungle when they finished our patron lmao
I’ve tried this build for my last few games and while I’ve won most of them there was something that just felt so bad about it. I thought it was me since I’m not a high mmr player and if I kept refining it the click would happen. Glad you could point out what felt wrong about it so I didn’t waste more people’s time
He said he likes magic carpet into ethereal shift so he can split push and so he doesn’t die with 3k souls unsecured and so he doesn’t die and miss out on farming since his goal is to farm and not be dead cause he said you miss out on 1.2k being dead while you couldn’t farm at your 2k per min rate. I tried to tell him it was a lot of money to spend on fixing positioning mistakes in sideline or in team fights. It also may not save you if someone ccs you out of magic carpet. His build doesn’t come online til 35 mins and he won lane so it was easier for him to get online. See video titled seven is the hardest carry for context I mentioned.
I feel not many understand how much farm they need before teaming up for pushes. Even if I lost my lane guardian early I still keep winning as long as I stay aware and farm just enough to be impactful in either split pushing or killing heroes. Emphasis on just enough.
you're not dissing drongo.. but I am. I played a previous game he made content for, and he stopped making content cos the entire community disagreed with his insanely selfish play that lost games, causing him to be low rated compared to other content creators.
we're seeing it again here with him stealing all his teammate's jungles lmao
I hate freaking farm simulators, I had games today where 3 out of 6 people in my team at 40 minutes mark participated in 4 FRAGS, all 3 of them. I genuinely could not believe my eyes how we managed to play that long, I was running around the map slaying with pocket and my 2 other irl friends. We literally played this game with sand bags on our shoulders instead of real people. The amount of rage I felt when I saw their stats after my patron got destroyed is impossible to measure.
id of the matches if you want to laugh at them:
21373287
21381249
played as pocket in both. Can't believe my eyes
I don't think people are jungling too much, it's about the time and place people do...anything. Jungling, team fighting, recovering, whatever.
People get these patterns in their heads and follow them regardless of the game state.
You should be watching the minimap almost more than you're watching the main screen.
There almost shouldn't be rules of "always" or "never" that you follow strictly, because that prevents you from learning to read the game state.
At 5 minutes (in your video) the answer is pretty simple.
There's a neutral camp in the church literally next to him.
The enemies appear to all be visible on the map (just going off where his allies are in relation to enemies), unable to respond any time soon. Maybe not the Abrams, but that's one hero, with less souls than him.
He should have thrown a lightning ball in that church, ran through it while shooting if needed, and continued to push the Walker until the enemy is forced to respond.
That Walker was almost dying to the minion waves.
Fall back if you lose sight of the enemies and you think they might be heading your way, but if they leave the lane open for you to take a free objective why wouldn't you?
It's hard to get people to understand that travel time is an opportunity cost.
The more you can make your opponent respond to you, the more you can tax them on that opportunity cost, as long as you don't get caught out and let them kill you because time spent dead is also an opportunity cost.
I respect his effort and took his information at face value. The Strat sucks ass. You fall behind, your team gets smashed, and you’re just farming
I'm sucha nab, but when I see Haze in my team not doing nothing but junglin for most of the game I'm getting a little, A LITTLE, upset.
When the Abrams had 6k and he had 13k, 6k of them weren’t spent so it was basically an even fight?
I do find this really commonly where people will get so focused on farming they forget the actual game.
I had a game today where people didn't come help me push the last guardian down while it was at like 15% hp, and I call it before hand and died 1v2, my lane teammate was farming small camp next to me, solo laner on the other side was farming medium camp and when I asked why they didn't come they said "I'm too weak to contest"
He had more money than me, and I already had money I couldnt spend because no flex slot and it blows my mind every time
For sure loses games. I play a lot of active heroes and the most frustrating part is watching people give up map pressure to jungle. People claim they came from other mobas and yet I see Sevens/Wraiths confirm 5-6 enemies on the map and they will opt to instead take all of our insurance camps instead of pushing a tower. Or even at minimum, take greedier farm if you're gonna bait your team to death. Love the educational content Deathy. Please keep it up.