Damn, I am STILL impressed at how much you raised your production value - after you apologized for upcoming videos going to be lower. Hope it relates to you feeling better.
You should definitely do more knife reviews! Loved how you did the specs. Quick and intuitive. I hate when people review a knife and spend half the video comparing it to other knives. I also like that you actually carry the knife and have a real world critique. Well done sir!
Absolutely!!! Ain't no one in the knifetuber space putting out the quality and professional level production quality that Alex is putting out! Not to mention his photo and vid skills are freaking amazing on the micro stuff. He is literally doing TV quality video production on this channel and he should be ultra proud of the amazing work he's putting out for us to watch!
A bit unrelated, but I think it would help a lot of people if you could talk about the techniques for sharpening long knifes, like chef knives, there getting an even edge up to the tip is quite tricky. :)
The thinner the knife is behind the apex, the less steel you have to remove, and therefore the easier it is to put a consistent bevel on the knife. If your problem is that you're running out of stone, that's understandable, but try turning your body abit more. I'm sure he can make a video to show how to deal with super long knives and small stones.
it would have been surprising that such a thin layer affects the hardness, but it's nice to see this confirmed with this sacrifice. My take is that a $50 knife is better than a $200 knife, as I tend to do more with a $50 knife (afraid to damage an expensive knife).
Thank you you're the first one brave enough to address this issue steel I purchased the drop bear early this year the new version black blade green Micarta 154 cm it's part of EDC for the week only one carbon fiber knife. Knife community is being brainwashed by Knife companies new Steeles add $30-$50 different scales titanium add $150 we the community can voice disappoint by going sites
There is no better authority to review knives than this channel. I am so glad to see that the channel is going in this direction. Hope to see some Cold Steel knives as well, maybe even swords and machetes someday :)
Oh yea, i got my first shaving sharp edge ever a cpl days ago...due in large part to your videos and the sharpal 325/1200...what a difference good equipment and a little bit of confidence makes...
I have 4 Kizers and bought one for my son. He uses and likes the Kizer so much, he put away his Benchmade Osbourne. My wife, who had zero interest in knives, instantly claimed one of my Kizers when she laid eyes on it. Kizers are good knives.
Nice and honest review, can you imagine that this knife is not allowed as an EDC only because you can open it with one Hand?! Now I have to sharpen my kniefes with your recommended diamondstone😁! Greatings from Germany, keep up your excellent work.
In Germany you are not lallowed to carry these knives. You can have only one thing of the following two specs to have it legal. Fulfilling both of the following criteria makes it illegal: 1. ONE HANDED OPENING 2. Locking Blade For example you can have a locking blade but the same knive is then not allowed to be opened with one hand. OR have a knife that opens with one hand but then only have slip locks like Swiss Army knives knife „lock“. Having g both makes the knife illegal: EG Benchmade Bugout. But anyways I don’t care :D (I am from Germany)
Also, the Clutch-lock is adjustable, you can change the tension of the spring depending on your preferences. And benchmade's axis-lock patent expired a while ago so everyone's doing them now. The coating usually decreases hardness by about 1 HRC.
@@OUTDOORS55 I wonder what the HRC is on their other offerings. I have a 20cv version that was a knifecenter exclusive and I quite love it, but it's my first 20cv, so I don't have any history to compare it to. If the s35vn is run soft I'd have to imagine the 20cv is as well, unless the s35vn in particular is just poorly done. Either way, it's not like I'll stop using it-it's one of my favorite knives-but I hate not knowing. Companies should really be forced to list their target HRC so that customers can make informed decisions.
@@OUTDOORS55 WE is doing the same thing, shooting for 59-61 HRC on the non coated, and 58-60 on the coated blades They really should be going for 60-62 on the non coated, so that the coated versions would be north of 59 HRC Or at least do what they did with the Kizer Miltaw and put on a proper DLC coating instead of a base PVD 🤷🏻♂️
All the we knives I've tested coated and uncoated have been 60+. Im sure eventually ill come across one that isnt but they seems to be leaving them on the harder side.
Happy to see you are doing well! Fat Carbon is a carbion fiber laminate made in the same country I am, Lithuania! I wouldn't say that the less expensive version of the drop bear have "less quality" materials, they are just less premium that are cheaper to manufacture and the base materials are cheaper, Norplex micarta is a great example of a beautiful material that is very wear resistant that is also not as expensive. I have nothing to comment on the Heat treat, seems like amissed great opportunity and the blade is very thick behind the edge. And as for compating with lower price knives, I feel like bag for the buck you get the most the cheaper you go, especialy ontario folders for 15 bucks.. but its like with music equipment, its depreciating returns, the higher end you want the more you need to spend. In this case the ginrding of the steels is totally different and wear in the manufacturers tools and also the base materials have different prices. FYI, it's like just like my opinion man...
I’m glad I found your channel. I have been hearing about Chinese companies doing poor heat treats on premium steels for a while. You review of the Drop Bear really has got me think that I should probably stick to 154cm, Nitro V, and 14C28N when it comes to Chinese knives, there is point in paying top dollar for poorly prepared powder steels. That said, I heard Kunwu does a good job of heat treating their knives.
Stratton the point. Love the way you give us info. I think.we spend a lot of time in the minor differences of our knives when most knives will do 90% of what we use them for. Great job
The clutch is basically an axis lock but you can adjust the spring tension to personalize your action. Also the bench made patent on the axis lock ran its course a couple years ago allowing kizer to use the design
The axis lock patent ended a few years ago. That's why so many companies have been using it. Also I have an aluminum with S30v drop bear and I love it. I've had no issues with the blade.
You broke my heart soon as you fired up the belt grinder. I knew what was coming. I do love the comparison videos. I’m so hard on my edc knives I can’t hardly afford to pay big prices. I’d love to see your thoughts on SOG knives.
New to your channel but definetly not new to the knife community. The whole time I was watching the review, I was thinking to myself "yeah, but it's a shame that the vosteed raccoon functions almost identically for half the price" as im fidgeting with my black micarta axis lock vosteed. Then 7:28 came on 😂 great review. The racoon for me is everything the kizer/bugout aims to be, and I've been EXTREMELY impressed with vosteed 14c28. My only gripe is it not having standoffs in between the liners and poor detent.
I lost my drop bear and replaced it with a raccoon. Looks like i made a good choice. Tho i do agree the action was a little better on the drop bear. I still hope it shows up somewhere. I love that you actually hardness tested the steels. Data over labels all day
Benchmade axis lock patents expired a few years back so a lot of companies are making their own versions now. If you like the Drop Bear, check out the Olight Rubato 4, also made by Kizer. It is slightly different but close design and also has S35vn steel. Hardness is supposed to be 60 +/- 2
I remember getting an Asher Knives "Nomad" relatively shortly after the patent expired and reddit was full of knife nerds frothing calling it design theft that someone made a better drop point knife axis lock knife than Benchmades Shitty bugout with the springs that break all the time! Now every knife is a drop point axis lock and nobody complains, smh. Btw almost nothing else about the two knives was the same. Profile, materials, spring quality, aesthetics...
I love all your videos I've improved all my sharpening an processes an wish you the best with your health. I'd also love to see you review cold steel knives personally I love there knives it's what's made me want to make my own knives an your videos have made me want to do get back into that process even more thanks. Wish you good health
After getting through over 400 knives (around half were folders) I always edc the Ganzo G720-O. Cheap, big, fun. I know it is a copy, but it is this good. Benchmade 610 Rukus comes in a "close" second ;).
I guees Stuff happens . I bought 2 knives from Kisar and an happy with both . One was the `Escort` model which is the same locking system. It works fantastic. The tention IS adjustable as the blade has holes drilled in it for you to do as you might like . The blade is longer, 3.3 in. and come in different scales for you to chose . I can`t say about the hardness of the steel ,but it is 154cm .So good enough for me. $89.00 makes it a good value , imo I`m surprised that Kisar got you a bad knife .Their quality seems to be very good . But all things change ,so that might be an indication of their future . I guress it`s now` buy at your own risk` ... Well at least we have been warned .... Thanks
Benchmade had the original patents for the axis lock. Those expire a handful of years ago so now most brands have their own take on the lock out there. While most companies have their own name for it, the þore general term is just a crossbar lock (benchmade still own the axis lock title). If I'm remembering correctly, Kizer is known for doing the lock type exceptionally well and for having adjustable tension. Crossbar lock typically have 2 omega springs that wrap and the bar with other ends of the springs hooking into a small hole in the liner. Kershaw has multiple different holes predrilled into either side to reduce or increase resistance. It's a cool feature, but I imagine it's rarely used.
The coating on the opposite side might also affect the HRC. Remove it and burn off 10% of the surface layer with HCl acid. Melt the steel into a perfect flat block. Buy 10 knives and do the same to get a big enough sample size. Make sure your tears don't fall on the block of steel, as this could affect the reading by 0.000001%
My first non cheap knife was in 14c28n. And it was great, but I wasn’t thrilled with edge retention. I picked up a Spyderco in CPM CruWear and I can absolutely tell the difference. BUT! After more knives and getting better at sharpening can I tell the difference in edge retention between CruWear, S30V, M390, S90V and Magnacut? Nope.
@@tacticalcenter8658 Arrogant much? The point is once you hit a certain level of edge retention in super steels they are very similar in day to day use.
throwback to an older vid - but I bought the vosteed raccoon and just received it today. shaving sharp out of the box, really nice finish, joint is solid, opens easy, awesome texture and fit on the scales, and really good pocket profile. and it comes with a little zipper carrying case and a microfiber cloth (for? heh). but the overall fit and finish on it is actually really nice for a "budget nice knife". great recommendation.
Definitely… and honestly I appreciate your work and your videos , it’s only because of your channel that I’ve been able to sharpen the way that I can now , thank you bro 🙏 truly appreciate you.
I know its double the price but i got the houge mysto a few months ago and it has quickly become my favorite knife. Came perfect out of the box. Still have yet to sharpen it though
I did a lot of research into kizer and found out they don't do good heat treat on certain steel like s35vn, 20cv, m390, 10v, and 15v, there might be others I'm forgetting. They do good to great on these steels, 154cm, 3v, 4v, elmax, and s90v but s90v is a given being that even 58 or 59 hrc is acceptable and still going to have crazy edge retention. They were running their 3v and 4v a little soft a few years ago but they said they were going to improve them and then when tested again about a year ago the 4v was running 64-65 hrc but I haven't found any actual recent test results for the 3v. I haven't tried their 3v myself but I did recently purchase a mini sheepdog in 4v and I believe they are still doing very good heat treat with it, I sharpened it right when I got it and I've been using it hard daily for a month now and its stayed very sharp with just 1 or 2 strops. I honestly don't understand why they are using so much s35vn on their premium knives when they can use what they already do well, 4v or elmax for knives they want to be tougher and s90v for knives they want to have excellent edge retention.
You know i think its maybe alittle hard to believe that the coating affects the hardness testing. It'd be interesting to see a video where you spray paint a piece of steel, and try to get it to measure differently when you know its exact hardness. You could also show how much a difference there is when measuring on the flat of the blade verses on an incline ect.
Thanks for the video. A possible alternative to the Drop Bear is CJRB Hectare in S90V currently selling for $119.99. I registered with CJRB and got 10% off. I don't know what the Rockwell is but they claim 59-61.
I got a 20CV Drop Bear a few weeks ago and agreed re: action, got a budget Sheepdog on order to see how the clutch lock translates to a different blade shape and weight... Disappointed but perhaps not surprised by the HRC on the S35VN - I do wonder if the 20CV heat treat is going to be Italian M390 level soft... Still a great day to day pocket knife though
Yooooo! I peeped that Em flow & scheme... NICE! Hell of a nice and subtle nod to Em, respect for that. The scheme was nice, actually original and a bit funny, definitely caught me off guard 😂 . That was just a cherry on top of your regular content which I greatly appreciate, always wondered why I had trouble sharpening knives, now I actually know why (burrs), I've been binge watching your videos and learning the intricacies of sharpening, watched your stropping videos and various sharpening videos as well as quite a few stone videos. Definitely planning on a sharpal diamond stone when I can afford one, got a crappy stone at the moment, but it isn't too bad as it's the burrs that are screwing me over and not sure how to really deal with them for the time being (until I can actually get/make a strop). Actually have a question concerning strops: What if you're completely broke/simply can't afford to spend the money at this time (as it has to go to other things like bills & food) and have no access to a proper strop, what are some ok/emergency/in a pinch options? What are some of the better things/material/methods to de-burr a knife (as much as you can) until you're able to actually get (make) yourself a proper strop? I manage to get rather nice edges but they hardly last due to the burrs and I have no way (that I know of) that would help with removing or minimizing burrs. I have a crap stone but can get relatively hair popping (though not whittling) results, but it doesn't last due to the burrs. Need options as I can't afford to drop $40(ish) bucks on a strop at this time but I want to actually be able to sharpen and use my knives for more than a handful uses before it "dulls" again. I'm not expecting perfection or anything like that, just something that will allow me to use it more than say 2-4 times before having to go back to the stone.
I really need to learn more about all the different knife steels, like, I keep seeing D2 tool steel? How does that compare to S35VN or whatever? I don't really do a lot of knife stuff but I'm definitely wanting to get more into all of it.
@@OUTDOORS55knifesteelnerds will not tell you anything about Chinese d2 heat treatment. Its basically slightly better than most 8cr13mov at 56-58rc. Its garbo.
Videography and knowledge drop as ever first class. A $160 huh. I would call that an axis lock myself but what do I know? This week I bought my first Ganzo (727s) $24, WTF just WTF? How do they do that at that price and build quality, makes for a great tourist knife. Edit to fix spelling and add bought a set of Global kitchen knives this week as well been desiring them for years, sometimes you just got to!
Ganzo best bang for the buck in the knife industry. Built solid with serviceable d2 and 440c in fact their d2 is consistently done pretty decent. Anyone saying ganzo doesn't make a solid quality piece dollar for dollar is just wrong.
@@tacticalcenter8658am old enough to know better. If you think another $140 is giving you value for money that's fine lol. This years Kawasaki/Honda/Suzuki is so much better than last year's.. 1.25mph faster, four more bhp and is available in a new colour range! Ganzo 440c is said by the factory to test at 58hrc, that's a 0.5 less than the knife in this video and as far as reliability if you have any interest in the subject you should be aware unlike what you infer, they aren't total sh*t and fall apart like suggest
@@EDCandLaceagreed, it's horses for courses and people are free to choose. Talking crap about a decent value for money product doesn't change facts. IMHO some companies need to step up their game for the money they charge or get realistic on their overpriced products.
@@tacticalcenter8658 Ganzo 440c is said by factory to be 58hrc thats 0.5 less than the Kizer tested in this video or the same as the final coating removed test. I don't see a blade coating and chopped carbon fiber scales adding $149 value. If I was to change anything on the Ganzo, I would like the pocket clip to be more flexible and the action springs to be a "touch" less stiff. Easily remedied at factory or by user.
The content is better and better, congrats on that. Regarding blade hardness - could it be a design choice to make it easier to sharpen - as more people come to the EDC community, they stil need to learn sharpening and doing so on a hard to sharpen blade can make them avoid the brand in the future. (I know there guided sharpening systems but most people want to do it free hand because of the cool factor)
I got nitro V version in ultem, $80 bucks. You get ultem, a razor sharp blade, adjustable omega spring and the clutch lock (axis lock) system. Cant beat it.
I don't get doing coating on a stainless steel. All kt does is lower hardness since they're done at high heat and act like another temper cycle. Unless you take it into account like say Rockstead and run it harder for that reason (but production blades are all done the same and then some get satin, bead blasted or coating finish). I guess some people like coated blades but mist don't since they're always the last to sell out.
I like the Drop Bear but IMO the Kizer Escort is _hands down_ the best "Clutch-Lok" knife Kizer makes/made and one of the best Kizer knives of all time period.
I have an escort and i think the drop bear beats it but that just me. Its the same lock just different handle shape. Its amazing how a different handle can change the way the lock feels. I also think it's highly personal as well👍👍
It's a very small sample size, but in the handful of hrc tests of seen on Kizer knives, they've all been on the softer side. Kind of hard to pay for premium steel with a sub-optimal heat treat.
I didnt buy another knife because of you. The closing easy thing blew my mind. I had the perfect knife sitting right here. The custom frame lock I carried is in the drawer of shame. Now I carry a cheap civivi with a button lock thingy 😅. Convince me to get a new one with these reviews. I dont mind collecting, I just dont have a reason right now. Im gonna give all my frame locks away to non knife nerds, suckers…
I have a lot of Kizers, and love their designs, but there have been several tests coming up on the low end of "acceptable" HRC. It's sad to see decent steels run soft, and it shouldn't be that hard to get them right. Vosteed is doing a lot right these days, the Raccoon is a favorite of mine.
Bummer that they did get the hardness over 60 hrc. I wonder if the uncoated versions or the 154CM versions are harder? I have an Oknife Rubato 2 (OEM'd by Kizer) in 154CM that I love, but I have no idea how hard the steel is. I just don't use knives hard enough to know.
Interesting. I've heard that some blade coating processes can mess with the hardness or temper on blades, especially cryo-treated ones that have a 350-400F temper. No clue if that's the case or how much the swing in hardness would be between coated and plain blades with all else being equal. I did a cut test a year or so back of a lot of companies' S35VN profiled to 15 degrees with twisted sisal rope (Artisan, Boker Plus, Civivi/We, Kancept & Spyderco China). They all were surprisingly close to each other, I think there was about a 20 cut variance between the top and bottom (they averaged 700 cuts each). I didn't have a Kizer in the stuff at the time though
Some coatings require give or take 500c. So they will be better off using secondary hardening and the coating can be one of the 3 tempers. Some coatings dont require that high of a temp but they dont usually last. You can apply high heat tempers but they dont usually do too good with hardness in the end. Plus if you ask for ht, in china, they give you the whole ht, so I dont think you can ask for no tempers and then apply the high heat coating as the temper.
How do you know that they did not do something to get different annealing to the back and edge of the knife? Is there a way to test hardness closer to the edge?
I'm not sure if it's expired or not but I'm reasonably certain that Benchmade owned the patents for the axis lock and for a long time the only way I could get one outside of a Benchmade was to buy a Chinese knife.
@@tacticalcenter8658 oh. What do you prefer? I think the axis lock is super smooth and very strong when it's locked open. I'm never afraid it's going to fail on me.
@@chris993361 a bunch of knives fail spine wacking. Even axis style. I prefer ones that dont fail. Lockbacks and frame locks are preferred, liner locks are okay if design is good. But heat treatment is the most important.
nice loved the review disappointing to see the drop bear come in so low on the hrc but i gotta say i love mine and it did feel like it has softer steel the way it sharpens compared to other knives with similiar steels but that being said can i go a week or so and use it at work and not need to sharpen yes generally speaking and i got the green aluminum scales and s35vn for 109$ on sale if memory serves which i think is completely reasonable for the knife 169 for fatcarbon and s35vn i couldnt rationalize that price either
Definitely didn't take it that way. There can be knives that you like but they just fall a little short of making it to the new favorite list or top 3 . Glad to see you doing better.
Your photography is second to none.
Absolutly!
You have to filter the air in the room before you measure the hardness, it chemically bonds to the knife and effects the hardness :P
Seriously, how does everyone not know this?
Also, the lunar positioning, ideally you want to test HRC at slack tide based on local charts to standardize for neutral tidal forces.
Also best practice to ensure that the moon isn't at perigee. Something with tidal forces stretching the steel, softening it.
@@zionpsyfer 🤣🤣
😂😂
Damn, I am STILL impressed at how much you raised your production value - after you apologized for upcoming videos going to be lower. Hope it relates to you feeling better.
Thank you for providing measurements in metrics. Much appreciated!
You should definitely do more knife reviews! Loved how you did the specs. Quick and intuitive. I hate when people review a knife and spend half the video comparing it to other knives. I also like that you actually carry the knife and have a real world critique. Well done sir!
Would love to see more episodes comparing budget vs premium blades. Like civivi vs benchmade
The improvement in production quality on this channel has been incredible!
Absolutely!!! Ain't no one in the knifetuber space putting out the quality and professional level production quality that Alex is putting out! Not to mention his photo and vid skills are freaking amazing on the micro stuff. He is literally doing TV quality video production on this channel and he should be ultra proud of the amazing work he's putting out for us to watch!
Yay! new video! Glad to see you're able to keep making content. Hoping that means your health is good!
A bit unrelated, but I think it would help a lot of people if you could talk about the techniques for sharpening long knifes, like chef knives, there getting an even edge up to the tip is quite tricky. :)
The thinner the knife is behind the apex, the less steel you have to remove, and therefore the easier it is to put a consistent bevel on the knife. If your problem is that you're running out of stone, that's understandable, but try turning your body abit more. I'm sure he can make a video to show how to deal with super long knives and small stones.
it would have been surprising that such a thin layer affects the hardness, but it's nice to see this confirmed with this sacrifice. My take is that a $50 knife is better than a $200 knife, as I tend to do more with a $50 knife (afraid to damage an expensive knife).
Thank you you're the first one brave enough to address this issue steel I purchased the drop bear early this year the new version black blade green Micarta 154 cm it's part of EDC for the week only one carbon fiber knife. Knife community is being brainwashed by Knife companies new Steeles add $30-$50 different scales titanium add $150 we the community can voice disappoint by going sites
There is no better authority to review knives than this channel. I am so glad to see that the channel is going in this direction. Hope to see some Cold Steel knives as well, maybe even swords and machetes someday :)
Oh yea, i got my first shaving sharp edge ever a cpl days ago...due in large part to your videos and the sharpal 325/1200...what a difference good equipment and a little bit of confidence makes...
The knife sharpening genius .. with another awesome video 👏 ❤😇
I have 4 Kizers and bought one for my son. He uses and likes the Kizer so much, he put away his Benchmade Osbourne. My wife, who had zero interest in knives, instantly claimed one of my Kizers when she laid eyes on it.
Kizers are good knives.
Identifying these diamonds in the rough would be a great series. They are out there
loved that outro with that despair music haha
Nice and honest review, can you imagine that this knife is not allowed as an EDC only because you can open it with one Hand?! Now I have to sharpen my kniefes with your recommended diamondstone😁! Greatings from Germany, keep up your excellent work.
In Germany you are not lallowed to carry these knives. You can have only one thing of the following two specs to have it legal. Fulfilling both of the following criteria makes it illegal:
1. ONE HANDED OPENING
2. Locking Blade
For example you can have a locking blade but the same knive is then not allowed to be opened with one hand.
OR have a knife that opens with one hand but then only have slip locks like Swiss Army knives knife „lock“.
Having g both makes the knife illegal:
EG Benchmade Bugout.
But anyways I don’t care :D
(I am from Germany)
I love me some Kizer knives. In fact I’ve got a little sheepdog mini that I’ve sharpened thanks to you.
"It would be a solid block!!" God I love how this channel gets me! The end had me almost on the floor 😂 ✌️
Heeeey!!! your doing knife reviews now!? Nice! Hope to see many more!
I've had my eye on this knife, I absolutely love the look of it. Thanks for the timely review!
Excellent! Glad to see you makin vids and seem to be feelin better! Prayin for you & yours!
God bless~
This video is great. Thank you for making it and sharing it with the world.
Also, the Clutch-lock is adjustable, you can change the tension of the spring depending on your preferences. And benchmade's axis-lock patent expired a while ago so everyone's doing them now. The coating usually decreases hardness by about 1 HRC.
We should still be a solid 60+ hrc though 👍
I was just gonna comment on the benchmade patent expiring when I saw this comment
@@OUTDOORS55 I wonder what the HRC is on their other offerings. I have a 20cv version that was a knifecenter exclusive and I quite love it, but it's my first 20cv, so I don't have any history to compare it to. If the s35vn is run soft I'd have to imagine the 20cv is as well, unless the s35vn in particular is just poorly done.
Either way, it's not like I'll stop using it-it's one of my favorite knives-but I hate not knowing. Companies should really be forced to list their target HRC so that customers can make informed decisions.
@@OUTDOORS55 WE is doing the same thing, shooting for 59-61 HRC on the non coated, and 58-60 on the coated blades
They really should be going for 60-62 on the non coated, so that the coated versions would be north of 59 HRC
Or at least do what they did with the Kizer Miltaw and put on a proper DLC coating instead of a base PVD
🤷🏻♂️
All the we knives I've tested coated and uncoated have been 60+. Im sure eventually ill come across one that isnt but they seems to be leaving them on the harder side.
Thanks for providing metric measurements as well
Happy to see you online ❤
You’re an inspiration to the knife community! God bless brother!
Happy to see you are doing well!
Fat Carbon is a carbion fiber laminate made in the same country I am, Lithuania!
I wouldn't say that the less expensive version of the drop bear have "less quality" materials, they are just less premium that are cheaper to manufacture and the base materials are cheaper, Norplex micarta is a great example of a beautiful material that is very wear resistant that is also not as expensive.
I have nothing to comment on the Heat treat, seems like amissed great opportunity and the blade is very thick behind the edge.
And as for compating with lower price knives, I feel like bag for the buck you get the most the cheaper you go, especialy ontario folders for 15 bucks.. but its like with music equipment, its depreciating returns, the higher end you want the more you need to spend. In this case the ginrding of the steels is totally different and wear in the manufacturers tools and also the base materials have different prices.
FYI, it's like just like my opinion man...
The music at the end was a great touch!!
Man, you video/photo production is top notch 👌
I’m glad I found your channel. I have been hearing about Chinese companies doing poor heat treats on premium steels for a while. You review of the Drop Bear really has got me think that I should probably stick to 154cm, Nitro V, and 14C28N when it comes to Chinese knives, there is point in paying top dollar for poorly prepared powder steels. That said, I heard Kunwu does a good job of heat treating their knives.
Keep cranking out the great vids Alex! I hope your health is doing well and your getting better! I'm pulling for you!
Lace.
Stratton the point. Love the way you give us info. I think.we spend a lot of time in the minor differences of our knives when most knives will do 90% of what we use them for. Great job
The clutch is basically an axis lock but you can adjust the spring tension to personalize your action. Also the bench made patent on the axis lock ran its course a couple years ago allowing kizer to use the design
I love catching new videos from you, my dude!
The axis lock patent ended a few years ago. That's why so many companies have been using it.
Also I have an aluminum with S30v drop bear and I love it. I've had no issues with the blade.
You broke my heart soon as you fired up the belt grinder. I knew what was coming. I do love the comparison videos. I’m so hard on my edc knives I can’t hardly afford to pay big prices. I’d love to see your thoughts on SOG knives.
You and jared have helped me learn how to freeehand shsrpen all my kitchen knives and mess a few nice ones up lol 😆 but thansk yall the best 🙌
New to your channel but definetly not new to the knife community. The whole time I was watching the review, I was thinking to myself "yeah, but it's a shame that the vosteed raccoon functions almost identically for half the price" as im fidgeting with my black micarta axis lock vosteed. Then 7:28 came on 😂 great review. The racoon for me is everything the kizer/bugout aims to be, and I've been EXTREMELY impressed with vosteed 14c28. My only gripe is it not having standoffs in between the liners and poor detent.
5:13 benchmade's patent on the axis lock expired a while ago so we see a lot more of that type of locking mechanism since then
I lost my drop bear and replaced it with a raccoon. Looks like i made a good choice. Tho i do agree the action was a little better on the drop bear. I still hope it shows up somewhere. I love that you actually hardness tested the steels. Data over labels all day
Benchmade axis lock patents expired a few years back so a lot of companies are making their own versions now. If you like the Drop Bear, check out the Olight Rubato 4, also made by Kizer. It is slightly different but close design and also has S35vn steel. Hardness is supposed to be 60 +/- 2
Not to be that guy, but isn't 60-2... 58?
@@jonpaul6948 Yes, but it could also be up to 62 depending on the heat treat that day. The unfortunate downside to cheaper production.
I remember getting an Asher Knives "Nomad" relatively shortly after the patent expired and reddit was full of knife nerds frothing calling it design theft that someone made a better drop point knife axis lock knife than Benchmades Shitty bugout with the springs that break all the time! Now every knife is a drop point axis lock and nobody complains, smh. Btw almost nothing else about the two knives was the same. Profile, materials, spring quality, aesthetics...
Should be 61-62 if Kizer actually cared enough.
I love all your videos I've improved all my sharpening an processes an wish you the best with your health. I'd also love to see you review cold steel knives personally I love there knives it's what's made me want to make my own knives an your videos have made me want to do get back into that process even more thanks. Wish you good health
After getting through over 400 knives (around half were folders) I always edc the Ganzo G720-O. Cheap, big, fun. I know it is a copy, but it is this good. Benchmade 610 Rukus comes in a "close" second ;).
😂 Great way to start a day, you really hit my humor nerve dead center!
Thanks
I guees Stuff happens . I bought 2 knives from Kisar and an happy with both . One was the `Escort` model which is the same locking system. It works fantastic. The tention IS adjustable as the blade has holes drilled in it for you to do as you might like . The blade is longer, 3.3 in. and come in different scales for you to chose .
I can`t say about the hardness of the steel ,but it is 154cm .So good enough for me.
$89.00 makes it a good value , imo
I`m surprised that Kisar got you a bad knife .Their quality seems to be very good . But all things change ,so that might be an indication of their future . I guress it`s now` buy at your own risk` ...
Well at least we have been warned .... Thanks
Benchmade had the original patents for the axis lock. Those expire a handful of years ago so now most brands have their own take on the lock out there. While most companies have their own name for it, the þore general term is just a crossbar lock (benchmade still own the axis lock title). If I'm remembering correctly, Kizer is known for doing the lock type exceptionally well and for having adjustable tension. Crossbar lock typically have 2 omega springs that wrap and the bar with other ends of the springs hooking into a small hole in the liner. Kershaw has multiple different holes predrilled into either side to reduce or increase resistance. It's a cool feature, but I imagine it's rarely used.
I really like your knife making series ever going to make more? Great video your content is awesome the Damascus knife parody is pure gold.
The coating on the opposite side might also affect the HRC. Remove it and burn off 10% of the surface layer with HCl acid. Melt the steel into a perfect flat block. Buy 10 knives and do the same to get a big enough sample size. Make sure your tears don't fall on the block of steel, as this could affect the reading by 0.000001%
My first non cheap knife was in 14c28n. And it was great, but I wasn’t thrilled with edge retention. I picked up a Spyderco in CPM CruWear and I can absolutely tell the difference. BUT! After more knives and getting better at sharpening can I tell the difference in edge retention between CruWear, S30V, M390, S90V and Magnacut? Nope.
You can tell the difference. You choose not to.
@@tacticalcenter8658 Arrogant much? The point is once you hit a certain level of edge retention in super steels they are very similar in day to day use.
@@jwiz1911 why are facts arrogant?
throwback to an older vid - but I bought the vosteed raccoon and just received it today. shaving sharp out of the box, really nice finish, joint is solid, opens easy, awesome texture and fit on the scales, and really good pocket profile. and it comes with a little zipper carrying case and a microfiber cloth (for? heh). but the overall fit and finish on it is actually really nice for a "budget nice knife". great recommendation.
Excellent review 👏 👌 👍
these close-up shots 😱😱😱 This review is something else lol, you should review more knives.
I will be. These are fun!😀
Lmfao 🤣 and omg Kramer saying “it would be a solid block!” 😆 👍
One of the funniest scenes in television history 😂
Definitely… and honestly I appreciate your work and your videos , it’s only because of your channel that I’ve been able to sharpen the way that I can now , thank you bro 🙏 truly appreciate you.
Awesome! That's great to hear👍👍👊
I know its double the price but i got the houge mysto a few months ago and it has quickly become my favorite knife. Came perfect out of the box. Still have yet to sharpen it though
No quarter given, i respect this.
I did a lot of research into kizer and found out they don't do good heat treat on certain steel like s35vn, 20cv, m390, 10v, and 15v, there might be others I'm forgetting. They do good to great on these steels, 154cm, 3v, 4v, elmax, and s90v but s90v is a given being that even 58 or 59 hrc is acceptable and still going to have crazy edge retention. They were running their 3v and 4v a little soft a few years ago but they said they were going to improve them and then when tested again about a year ago the 4v was running 64-65 hrc but I haven't found any actual recent test results for the 3v. I haven't tried their 3v myself but I did recently purchase a mini sheepdog in 4v and I believe they are still doing very good heat treat with it, I sharpened it right when I got it and I've been using it hard daily for a month now and its stayed very sharp with just 1 or 2 strops. I honestly don't understand why they are using so much s35vn on their premium knives when they can use what they already do well, 4v or elmax for knives they want to be tougher and s90v for knives they want to have excellent edge retention.
great review, really like the critical takes and comparison to the raccoon
You know i think its maybe alittle hard to believe that the coating affects the hardness testing. It'd be interesting to see a video where you spray paint a piece of steel, and try to get it to measure differently when you know its exact hardness. You could also show how much a difference there is when measuring on the flat of the blade verses on an incline ect.
Watch till the end😉
When the manufacturer applies the coating it does so at a heat greater than it was tempered at usually. This causes the steel to be softer.
I’ve recently got into Kizer knives and I think this will be my next purchase.
Not a bad knife 👍
Thanks for the video. A possible alternative to the Drop Bear is CJRB Hectare in S90V currently selling for $119.99. I registered with CJRB and got 10% off. I don't know what the Rockwell is but they claim 59-61.
I got a 20CV Drop Bear a few weeks ago and agreed re: action, got a budget Sheepdog on order to see how the clutch lock translates to a different blade shape and weight...
Disappointed but perhaps not surprised by the HRC on the S35VN - I do wonder if the 20CV heat treat is going to be Italian M390 level soft... Still a great day to day pocket knife though
Yooooo! I peeped that Em flow & scheme... NICE! Hell of a nice and subtle nod to Em, respect for that. The scheme was nice, actually original and a bit funny, definitely caught me off guard 😂 . That was just a cherry on top of your regular content which I greatly appreciate, always wondered why I had trouble sharpening knives, now I actually know why (burrs), I've been binge watching your videos and learning the intricacies of sharpening, watched your stropping videos and various sharpening videos as well as quite a few stone videos. Definitely planning on a sharpal diamond stone when I can afford one, got a crappy stone at the moment, but it isn't too bad as it's the burrs that are screwing me over and not sure how to really deal with them for the time being (until I can actually get/make a strop).
Actually have a question concerning strops: What if you're completely broke/simply can't afford to spend the money at this time (as it has to go to other things like bills & food) and have no access to a proper strop, what are some ok/emergency/in a pinch options? What are some of the better things/material/methods to de-burr a knife (as much as you can) until you're able to actually get (make) yourself a proper strop? I manage to get rather nice edges but they hardly last due to the burrs and I have no way (that I know of) that would help with removing or minimizing burrs. I have a crap stone but can get relatively hair popping (though not whittling) results, but it doesn't last due to the burrs. Need options as I can't afford to drop $40(ish) bucks on a strop at this time but I want to actually be able to sharpen and use my knives for more than a handful uses before it "dulls" again. I'm not expecting perfection or anything like that, just something that will allow me to use it more than say 2-4 times before having to go back to the stone.
I really need to learn more about all the different knife steels, like, I keep seeing D2 tool steel? How does that compare to S35VN or whatever? I don't really do a lot of knife stuff but I'm definitely wanting to get more into all of it.
Id recommend visiting knifesteelnerds dot com It has everything you want to know initially 👍
@@OUTDOORS55 AWESOME!!! thanks!
@@OUTDOORS55knifesteelnerds will not tell you anything about Chinese d2 heat treatment. Its basically slightly better than most 8cr13mov at 56-58rc. Its garbo.
You are a different kind of knife guy, i like it.
to my knowledge kizer has a great heat treat with 154cm, and elmax
but their ht suck at s35vn and 20cv
Kizer 154cm is sub par to civivi 9cr18mov. Most of their steels need improvements or better choices.
Videography and knowledge drop as ever first class. A $160 huh.
I would call that an axis lock myself but what do I know? This week I bought my first Ganzo (727s) $24, WTF just WTF? How do they do that at that price and build quality, makes for a great tourist knife.
Edit to fix spelling and add bought a set of Global kitchen knives this week as well been desiring them for years, sometimes you just got to!
Ganzo have low performing steels and break often. Its worth 24 or less.
Ganzo best bang for the buck in the knife industry. Built solid with serviceable d2 and 440c in fact their d2 is consistently done pretty decent. Anyone saying ganzo doesn't make a solid quality piece dollar for dollar is just wrong.
@@tacticalcenter8658am old enough to know better.
If you think another $140 is giving you value for money that's fine lol. This years Kawasaki/Honda/Suzuki is so much better than last year's.. 1.25mph faster, four more bhp and is available in a new colour range!
Ganzo 440c is said by the factory to test at 58hrc, that's a 0.5 less than the knife in this video and as far as reliability if you have any interest in the subject you should be aware unlike what you infer, they aren't total sh*t and fall apart like suggest
@@EDCandLaceagreed, it's horses for courses and people are free to choose. Talking crap about a decent value for money product doesn't change facts. IMHO some companies need to step up their game for the money they charge or get realistic on their overpriced products.
@@tacticalcenter8658 Ganzo 440c is said by factory to be 58hrc thats 0.5 less than the Kizer tested in this video or the same as the final coating removed test.
I don't see a blade coating and chopped carbon fiber scales adding $149 value.
If I was to change anything on the Ganzo, I would like the pocket clip to be more flexible and the action springs to be a "touch" less stiff. Easily remedied at factory or by user.
Thanks for another great video. And clarifying that S35VN and S30V aren’t that different
They are different. Very different.
Can you do a hardness test on the kizer 154CM knives? Would be interesting to see if it is above 58 HRC or not. 😂
The content is better and better, congrats on that.
Regarding blade hardness - could it be a design choice to make it easier to sharpen - as more people come to the EDC community, they stil need to learn sharpening and doing so on a hard to sharpen blade can make them avoid the brand in the future. (I know there guided sharpening systems but most people want to do it free hand because of the cool factor)
diminishing returns, that's how it is. Those last 10% will cost you dearly. Another great video.
I got nitro V version in ultem, $80 bucks. You get ultem, a razor sharp blade, adjustable omega spring and the clutch lock (axis lock) system. Cant beat it.
Though it seems to be better than ANY knife I own, it's still overpriced.
Great video! 🙋🏼♂️
Can we expect to see more videos about your journeys with rhe knives that Neeves sent you? The fat carbon part had me dying. Great video as usual.
$60 Raccoon for the win! Great video, Alex!
I don't get doing coating on a stainless steel. All kt does is lower hardness since they're done at high heat and act like another temper cycle. Unless you take it into account like say Rockstead and run it harder for that reason (but production blades are all done the same and then some get satin, bead blasted or coating finish). I guess some people like coated blades but mist don't since they're always the last to sell out.
5:10 clutch lock is just their name for the axis lock, known generically as the cross bar lock
I like the Drop Bear but IMO the Kizer Escort is _hands down_ the best "Clutch-Lok" knife Kizer makes/made and one of the best Kizer knives of all time period.
I have an escort and i think the drop bear beats it but that just me. Its the same lock just different handle shape. Its amazing how a different handle can change the way the lock feels. I also think it's highly personal as well👍👍
It's a very small sample size, but in the handful of hrc tests of seen on Kizer knives, they've all been on the softer side. Kind of hard to pay for premium steel with a sub-optimal heat treat.
It was nice to see the grinder get fired up again. Did it make you want to do a stock removal video again? (please do one, for old times sake)😅
Hi Alex! Do you think I could use a cheap, 400 grit diamond plate to flatten a 1500 shapton kuromaku stone?
Thanks in advance!
Might be a little small but may work 🤷♂️👍
Kershaw Bel air can be had for around 130. I'd love to see how it would fair vs your pointy press machine.
I didnt buy another knife because of you. The closing easy thing blew my mind. I had the perfect knife sitting right here. The custom frame lock I carried is in the drawer of shame. Now I carry a cheap civivi with a button lock thingy 😅. Convince me to get a new one with these reviews. I dont mind collecting, I just dont have a reason right now. Im gonna give all my frame locks away to non knife nerds, suckers…
Fantastic video! Loved the review.
Thanks!
Great content as always.
I have a lot of Kizers, and love their designs, but there have been several tests coming up on the low end of "acceptable" HRC. It's sad to see decent steels run soft, and it shouldn't be that hard to get them right. Vosteed is doing a lot right these days, the Raccoon is a favorite of mine.
Bummer that they did get the hardness over 60 hrc. I wonder if the uncoated versions or the 154CM versions are harder? I have an Oknife Rubato 2 (OEM'd by Kizer) in 154CM that I love, but I have no idea how hard the steel is. I just don't use knives hard enough to know.
Interesting. I've heard that some blade coating processes can mess with the hardness or temper on blades, especially cryo-treated ones that have a 350-400F temper. No clue if that's the case or how much the swing in hardness would be between coated and plain blades with all else being equal.
I did a cut test a year or so back of a lot of companies' S35VN profiled to 15 degrees with twisted sisal rope (Artisan, Boker Plus, Civivi/We, Kancept & Spyderco China). They all were surprisingly close to each other, I think there was about a 20 cut variance between the top and bottom (they averaged 700 cuts each). I didn't have a Kizer in the stuff at the time though
Some coatings require give or take 500c. So they will be better off using secondary hardening and the coating can be one of the 3 tempers.
Some coatings dont require that high of a temp but they dont usually last.
You can apply high heat tempers but they dont usually do too good with hardness in the end. Plus if you ask for ht, in china, they give you the whole ht, so I dont think you can ask for no tempers and then apply the high heat coating as the temper.
You should try reviewing like the spider coat kitchen, not the basic ones, but the fancy ones
i'm glad, i stayed away from kizer anyway. how about testing the newer models that has higher HRC labelled from kizer?
Now sign the Drop Bear with a laser where you sanded the DLC and auction it to your Patreon.
The patent for the axis lock has run out, but, apparently, not the copyright for the name, according to the Knife Center.
I like the orange one because i can see it in the dark at 100 yds
Awesome video! This channel is on fire bro! 🔥
Both the knives I used, boker and spyderco, were 58 HRC only. You must be used to your own custom knives that are very high hardness. :D
How do you know that they did not do something to get different annealing to the back and edge of the knife? Is there a way to test hardness closer to the edge?
I would love to see a good review of the old Benchmade AFOII. not the best blade steel, but I'd love to see it anyway.
I'm not sure if it's expired or not but I'm reasonably certain that Benchmade owned the patents for the axis lock and for a long time the only way I could get one outside of a Benchmade was to buy a Chinese knife.
The patent expired. When it expired everyone in all countries used it or made a variation.
@@tacticalcenter8658 good to know. I have always loved the axis lock.
@@chris993361 I dislike it and its variations
@@tacticalcenter8658 oh. What do you prefer? I think the axis lock is super smooth and very strong when it's locked open. I'm never afraid it's going to fail on me.
@@chris993361 a bunch of knives fail spine wacking. Even axis style. I prefer ones that dont fail. Lockbacks and frame locks are preferred, liner locks are okay if design is good. But heat treatment is the most important.
nice loved the review disappointing to see the drop bear come in so low on the hrc but i gotta say i love mine and it did feel like it has softer steel the way it sharpens compared to other knives with similiar steels but that being said can i go a week or so and use it at work and not need to sharpen yes generally speaking and i got the green aluminum scales and s35vn for 109$ on sale if memory serves which i think is completely reasonable for the knife 169 for fatcarbon and s35vn i couldnt rationalize that price either
Dont get me wrong i still like it🙂 It was in the pocket today 👍
Definitely didn't take it that way. There can be knives that you like but they just fall a little short of making it to the new favorite list or top 3 . Glad to see you doing better.