I DID MAKE A MISTAKE IN THE VIDEO WHEN SPEAKING ABOUT CRUWEAR, THE TOUGHNESS WOULD BE AN 8/10, WHEN READING THE SPECS I READ THE BLADE HQ ONE WHICH IS NOT AS ACCURATE ON THAT PARTICULAR STEEL AS LARRIN ON KNIFE STEEL NERDS. I LINKED INFORMATION IN THE DESCRIPTION TO CHARTS ETC.. AND VANAX IS ACTUALLY 8/10 IN EDGE RETENTION. THE CHART I WAS READING WAS NOT ACCURATE FOR THE EDGE RETENTION ON VANAX. THANK YOU FOR WATCHING
You are the first time that I have heard a knife noob talk about sharpening angle, congratulations. Some steels make a good razor and some steels make a good axe. To state it simply, we can expect a correlation between angle and strength but that really doesn't take the texture of the steel or grain orientation into account. However, this is a concern that we really can't avoid. Usually, I will sharpen my everyday work knife at 35 degrees. It is the steepest angle that I can get a decent edge on, just barely shaving sharp if I putt a little too much effort into sharpening it. But, overall, use it for a beater and sharpen it again. That is my minimum standard for a pocket knife. Kitchenware, somebody is just going to try to cut the dishes in half with it so why bother with putting much thought into it. I do agree with you about 14c28n. I had one knife in it, and I was amazed me how easily the thing sharpened to a razor. I didn't know that it was made out of a modern razor stock, thank you for that information, I'll want to buy another. 154CM isn't nearly a budget steel. I still own one knife in ATS34 and it holds an edge on my "sloyd" knife better than any steel that I would usually buy. I did try to sharpen that knife well enough to shave with at one time. My Case XX was a much more comfortable shave. Overall, ats34 like 30 degrees for whittling hardwood and give you the razor burn from hell. 420 try it again at 35 degrees. It's actually a great steel for the tackle box or backpack because nobody ever washes the thing before they close the top and dendrites start forming. I had a diving knife in 420. I tried sharpening it at 40 degree axe angle. I did that because your hands are always wet when working around the water, so I figured that the divers were right and you wouldn't want it too sharp. At 40 degrees, 420 will still shave hair. 440c, 440b, 440a. A subject in itself and a good lesson for you. 440c was intended for mass production of cutlery. Back in the 1980's you could pick up a huge variety of knives made from US made 440c. The Japanese were buying it, making and selling premium knives out of it. Fiskars/Gerber was selling huge amounts of knives made from it. It was never a very good steel until the Japanese started selling it back to us. There is a reason for this; 440c has a secret. If you were to buy 440c and have it shipped immediately from the mill, it arrives in an annealed condition. You may then cut, stamp and make your blades from a rather soft metal. Once you stop and put the product in the warehouse, the 400c will begin to age harden. If you simply leave your knives in the warehouse, they will harden themselves to approximately 57rc. (So, it says 57rc-59rc, no point in testing it either.) Now, if you were to do as the Japanese did with it, it never gets shipped to Japan in time, you will have a completely different result. The steel manufacturers will tell you this. If you give it some thought, you could just buy up old knives and fix it. (Kershaw is actually worse than Gerber is at it.) D2, the worst knife steel that I know of. If it were rusty old bedsprings, instead, at least it wouldn't take all day to sharpen it. It was designed and intended for making tools for cutting metals, A2 and O1 have the same intention. We can assume that nobody intended any of these steels be used at any sharpening angle flatter than 45 degrees. Some of the steel mills will go on and on about the carbide size in their sales pitch. Give this some thought. If your minimum standard for sharpening a knife is a 2000 grit abrasive, why would you even consider making a knife out of a steel that has carbides bigger than your sharpening stone? If your minimum standard is a stropped edge then there is no point in trying to strop a bunch of glued together rocks. In short, your stropping compound is finer than a half micron. (You like REX45. Going from memory, REX 90 was intended for cutting steel and REX45 was intended for "machine cutting blades." I don't know if the tanneries use it or not.) Hope that that helps. (I'm looking for a skiving knife today. I think I'll buy an old Hickory paring knife.)
@@joeljokinen9051 I owned a Cold Steel in SK5. That was years back when there really weren't many specialty knife steels available. If we were to assume that Cold Steel did an excellent job of tempering, they did. (In this day and age, your Cold Steel's are a name only.) It is basically 1065 modified...as such, on any big heavy blade it is a better choice than a steel that cracks and shatters on impact. I chose it because I was growing tired of spending a lot of time on 440c. It does sharpen faster than 440c so, for a tool that will primarily be whittling soft woods, it is a good choice. Most of the whittling knife manufactures consider 1095 as premium and I was hoping to find a supplier where I could try 52100. (The equivalents to 1065 are the low end Beaver Craft brand that is highly recommended by the RUclips reviews government.) 52100 has specs of a huge improvement in tensile strength and I personally think that strength is just as important as compressional strength(Hardness). In the meantime, you could just buy a Moranive in carbon steel or a Tramontana machete and find out. Specs on paper are one thing but actual experience is another. Human beings have been pounding cutting tools out of rocks for at least twenty thousand years, there is no need for me to decide that the better rocks won't get better. (They seem to have left the best, low cost razor stock in the closet because somebody made a cheaper one - 12c27.)
Exactly !!! And always get a thumbs up but I got 4 kids 2 n diapers and 1 in collage so sending cash isn't in the budget but the dude that does thank you for supporting great creators like this guy
@@MattH-wg7ou Just compared to M390 and Magnacut, etc. If the price is reasonable, most people are just fine with it. You just can't price it like a premium steel any more since it no longer out-performs most of them.
Agreed. There was a time where S30V was the industry standard for a "decent" knife. Times just change and we have a lot of other options. But for most people, S30V is going to do the job for EDC and be very low maintenance as it doesn't rust easily. There a plethora of solid EDC knives with that steel. I've explored into other steels higher range and I have to say I would always feel just better about having my EDC with S30V becuase I know it'll do its job and take a moderate beating.@@IlliniDog01 What I would say is though is that these knives with S30V haven't really declined in price (cough cough BENCHMADE) and these companies need to realize that the sliding scale has forced that steel into mid-tier
Thanks for the content Jared. I received a Knife with nitro v for Christmas. I have been having trouble keeping an edge but after watching some of your sharpening videos I realized I was overstropping and taking it to to high of a grit for my needs. Thanks for helping to sharpen my skills and setting my edges straight. I really enjoy your informative detailed videos
if you want to go with a higher grit finish lower the angle, with any steel the lower the angle the better a fine edge will turn out, so if you are going with a mid range angle keep it in the medium grit
@@NeevesKnives thanks for providing the tools and a little confidence. I have a better understanding of what I am looking at and looking for. I'm now willing to explore more in my sharpening without feeling like I'm screwing it up
For sure. You want a razor polish? Better make it thin as a razor to slice well. Nitro-V, 14c28n are made to be razor blade steels. I like toothy edges myself, though. Maybe 1k at most but even a good 400 grit.
Awesome this taught me allot and my next knife purchase I had planned was the right choice it'll get used for work and seld defense I have tiny girl hands and am 5'5 about 135lbs so ergonomics of the knife I've chosen are amazing I chose the Joker Avispa S with the burl birch handle and 14c28n blade I can't wait to get it man it's so so sweet I been wanting a good stainless 3in blade now I can get my true Damascus 1095 blade a break it was a gift and is sentimental in value to me it's priceless because of the person who gifted it to me and my benchmade saddle mountain skinner is a felony for me if I carry it concealed stock sticks because that knife is unbelievably good was gonna get a hidden canyon but it's hard to stomach the price tag so Joker Avispa S is gonna be
My TOP 5 steels: 1) Edge/Bevel geometries. 2) Succesful heat treatment. 3) Handle design. 4) Locking mechanism (or sheath if it's fixed blade) 5) Blade thickness/overall design,not for the looks, but for the performance/functionality of the tool. Lastly, I don't have a favorite steel for fodlers, I enjoy though, Ballbearing steel,Vanadis 4 Extra and CPM 3V, on my outdoor fixed blade knives that I use.
Yes. 52100 can be in an awful knife or a great one, and same deal with MagnaCut. Having a hard steel for its toughness is ideal, then optimize the geometry for the task. 14c28n is the GOAT. Edge geometry and hard, you get super edge retention and it cuts way easier while you're at it, it's tough enough to support it unlike high carbide steels. MagnaCut is better, if you can afford it, adds extra edge retention for a little tiny bit less toughness.
I love it when you do videos of this nature...myself and many many others have learned so very much from Neeves Knives . You have the very best channel for learning about steels, angels, geometry, grits, stones ect. That 8 have viewed. So keep it up BROTHER!
@@thomaszinecker1785I've never had chipping issues with s35vn so I just stick with that and 14c28n as they strop up in like 10 seconds so I keep a shaving edge for long time with those
Neeves, I'm really appreciating your deep dive into the different attributes of steels and what can be expected of them with different grits. Ii tried for years to explain just how effective micro teeth can be in cutting. Particularly tough materials. On one on BF paid attention as the local guru there who claimed to be a certified, Metallurgical engineer said no such thing existed. I finally did a deep dive into his history and found that he had so such degree but had attended a trade school. I guess his country does not have the standards we enjoy. Your are doing Fine and are actually getting the communities attention! Good Job! KnifeMaker
I really liked this video. I wish i would have leaned about the different steel options years ago. I had no idea how many options there were. I mainly purchase budget knives and normally look for 14c28n right off the bat. I really like that steel. Thanks for sharing your knowledge about this. It's very helpful and interesting.
I love listening to experts explain the characteristics of blade steels. Early on, this info played a huge role in my knife choices. But then thinking about how I used my knives, i concluded that the steel wasn't that big a deal. I mean, how much better wiil magnacut cut up a sammich over 14C28N? For me, it's just not the end all, be all when evaluating a knife. If was big into collecting/reselling I might feel different. Great content!
Nice work. I mostly agree with your top 5. I adore cruwear. There's no better steel for a hard use knife, imo. If I had to take one knife to rely on for a few months 100 miles from the nearest road, it would be made of cruwear. For folding knives, I love k390 and Rex45. For both I have knives that I've used for 3+ years that still have the factory edge. They just strop back to shaving sharp. Amazing stuff!
I have a Civivi Elementun in D2 and I love this compact pocket knife. Smooth, reasonably priced and very goof for EDC. Holds an edge that's good enough for me.
Thanks Jerad for sharing all your experience with these knife steels. For Magnacut, you mentioned HRC is very critical to the edge retention. I'm wondering with all the models you cut tested and/or sharpened, which companies do you think are doing great heat treatment on MC?
Good to hear, just ordered a Manix 2 in Rex 45 and was somewhat second guessing my decision until I watched your video and another one praising it’s abilities.
420hc by Latrobe is a very tough stainless, even tougher than Nitro V and 12c27…it can hold an edge enough to process a deer or elk if heat treated by Buck… been using it for years
Cruwear and magnacut are pretty perfect steels. M4/4v are pretty perfect BUT you can't sharpen them AND they rust easy! So that's not a "premium" steel for a noobie ya know? I thought 20cv was but it has even more warnings: hard to sharpen. Brittle edge.
This guy! Absolute font of all sharpening knowledge. To have come from a shady background and risen to this level is something to be deeply proud of, the knife community as a whole is all the better for having Jared at the forefront. You're a living legend my dude.
I recently bought a 14c28n qsp grebe. It cost me 85 doll hairs. Which is the most expensive in my humble collection. It does seem sharper out of the box than the qsp penguin in d2...I haven't made the leap into high-end knives yet...
Perfect! Low budget steels present an excellent opportunity to experiment with different sharpening stones, angles, and stone grits - you'll increase your sharpening skills, while also discovering your preferences on edge angles, and fine or toothy edges. This experience will apply later when you experiment with more premium steels.
My favorite knife hands down is the harbor freight icon D2 knife! Very sharp out of the box and it’s never rusted, it’s my everyday but if it ever rusts I’m definitely walking in and warranting it that same day for a new one! Have it for 3 months now never needed to re sharpen
I am a very sweaty guy and i work in outdoor temps year round. I get at least a little rust on most steels in my pocket in a workday. I also like to have good to great edge retention. Before magnacut came out my favorite was S110V but my options for daily carry without rust were limited basically to Spyderco or quiet carry with vanax but i don't like quiet carry knives much. When magnacut came out and became wide spread i was excited because it really opened up my options. And i find that it holds a pretty good edge!
@@EDCandLaceS90v is my preferred of the high abrasion resistance stainlesses, but its corrosion resistance is so-so. It's more in line with s30v. S110v has notably better stain resistance, even if its toughness/edge retention balance is a little worse. While not my preferred steel, the 20CV family should offer really solid stain resistance when done well. Not quite as good as magancut, but roughly in line with s110.
Completely agree! 3V and CruWear for great high toughness and good above average edge retention and slightly below average corrosion resistance. 10V and K390 for good above average toughness and great high edge retention and slightly below average corrosion resistance. Magnacut for balanced very good high toughness and good above average edge retention and great high corrosion resistance.
Really good video, love your explanations for your choices. Given me something to think about with what grit's I want to be using with my different steels!
Seems that you are right about sharpening s30v, cause ever since I switched from a smooth strop to a medium coarse strop I noticed it’s keeping a better edge and it preforms better when it’s slightly toothy aswell. Thanks kneeves, the sharpening tips help and I concur with your thoughts from experience
I knew this was going to be interesting, but once again you slammed it out of the park Jarred ! So much specific and to the point information... Great job ! Thanks !
K390 is definitely a sharpener's steel. K390, M4, S90v, 3V, Cruwear are my favorites. The wharncliffe Endura K390 is probably my favorite cardboard cutter.
Just found this channel and love the level of detail you went through. Now I want something I already wanted for a long time a knife made of cru-Wear. And maybe one of k390 and another one of magnacut.
Great video brother and I agree with you on all points. I happen to absolutely love k390 as well and all the different edges it can take. Thanks for sharing it’s appreciated 👊🏼
Magnacut is only good with high rc on pocket knives. After using a 65rc custom that was 9thou bte I will NEVER buy soft magnacut again. I've learned high hardness is benefit on just about any steel on a pocketknife.
25:55 I like a certain minimum of toughness on folders for the edge alone, not for the blade itself. I like honing and stropping and an edge that rather bends over than it chips is serving me well I think. Please feel free to chime in on my opinion, I am always open to new thoughts.
I’m currently using a civivi Altus with nitro v. It’s just my cheap work knife that I use everyday on boxes,opening packages,plastic straps,wire ties,prying etc. I’ve had really good luck out of it even though it’s considered a budget steel/knife. It’s been much batter than my crkt that I couldn’t keep sharpened. Better than aus 8. I think it’s probably comparable or better than my delica vg-10.
I love spyderco mostly because they bring us a lot of awsome steels we wouldn't have otherwise . Spy27 and s45 have been amazing for as a work beaters cause the maintenance is near nothing .
Hello So I've used and had pocket knives all my life just about for multiple purposes from work to camping and everything in-between. Now I'm no expert on steels and sharpening plus knowing the potential of edges. But as of the past few year's most my edc knives have been made with D2 steel. I own several other's with different steels, but I find I use more stuff with D2 then anything else. And over the past year I've been really trying too get better with sharpening my stuff and learning all I can. I have a wide variety of stones from very coarse too even some stones that are super smooth like marble. Now when I began my journey into sharpening and was buying all kinds of stones and strops etc I got some of these stones in kit's and had no idea how a stone that so smooth like a marble how it does anything lol. I'm talking stuff that is like around 6000 grit and up too I believe I have a few that are even 1200 grit and possibly higher. Now my 2 strops I own have 2 different leathers one is rougher and one is more smooth. I'm telling you all this because I'd like you're input on the D2 steel and what leather is better the rough or smooth and also are stones above 3000 even worth using 🤔 if you wouldn't mind could you please explain your opinions please and thank you. I guess being I'm 43 I should know this stuff but I just never really took it seriously growing up till a few year's back. Now I do know that D2 is a budget steel and mostly used in the tool industry for wrenches etc. But I really wanna hear you're opinions on it for a knife blade because I've been actually liking it. My only complaint has been getting it sharp and it staying decently sharp.
K390 is my favorite right now for EDC. Edge is great and I can get it sharper than others, but I also found I like it as a "user" more partially because it will patina and show use, and I am not afraid to "mess it up" like other safe-queen knives I own. 3v is my favorite for fixed blade/outdoor knives, although magnacut is up there now, depending on use. Sadly don't own any Cru-Wear, I may have to remedy that soon. Lastly, I would say CTS-XHP is underrated, but it could just be that I only ever carried it in my Chaparral, which has excellent blade geometry and heat-treat for a small EDC fixed blade.
i absolutely agree, and wish we could get more cts xhp, the best ive tried was from spyderco and it made me fall in love with it. im not sure why more companies are not using it i heard a rumor that its getting hard to get in large quantities
I also heard Cold Steel moved away from HXP due to availability issues. @@NeevesKnives In the end people just don't use it enough for it to be more available in larger quantities. Maybe CTS just ain't big enough.
Jared is fascinating to watch. This channel is what got me into knives 2 years ago. I would have never imagined ever having a knife addiction but here I am, still buying knives I don’t need.😂
Jerad I highly recommend you pick up the K294 & CPM T15 Spyderco Mules. You will LOVE them. I know you like K390 and K294 is very similar, K294 is almost identical to CPM 10V. CPM Rex T15 has also amazing wear resistance, it has 4.9% Vanadium 12% Tungsten & 5% Cobalt, and a hardness between 66-68HRC. But I don't think there are that many of the Mules left, so just a heads up I also contacted several Custom Knife makers and Spyderco about the new Rex steel: CPM Rex 54, so hopefully we see someone from the community get their hands on some to test it. It should have better edge retention and toughness than Rex 45, it's a (M35 class High speed Tool Steel. Crucible describes it as an "M4 modified with Cobalt" and should be able to reach 67HRC or more. Rex 54 has the same Cobalt level as M35 & T15 So I CAN'T wait to see that get tested by the community.
@@NeevesKnives You will love the K294 Mule it's almost identical to 10V in composition and for $95 it's such an amazing deal. I hope to see Spyderco do a Rex 54 Mule in the future since they have done every other Rex Steel. But will probably take a LONG time before we see it since they have so much on their plate.
@@Cid_1 When I saw such a great supply of 10V/K294 in Mule Team, I ended up getting five. And my girlfriend just had to have one for her kitchen, with all the oiling/dampness precautions.
Vanax/CTS-XHP/Magnacut/S35vn all score as VERY well balanced steels in all categories, scoring 5 or higher in all fields before trade-offs begin tipping the balances. Note that a well heat treated 440C was equal with 154CM (not to be confused with CPM154...which uses a more advanced steel production process).
The only difference I've seen in cpm 154 is toughness and maybe a couple percent jump in edge retention i personally prefer 154cm. a well heat treated 440c on paper is almost equivalent however it's not what I've seen in practice during controlled edge retention tests. 154cm usually gets slightly less than s35vn from my experience
@@NeevesKnives I agree. I have an older 440C heat treated in Japan that is excellent, but have never ran across another as good. At least not from any American companies. I may try to dig up a Buck to check on a BoS heat treat in 440C...they're not overly common. I agree also on the 154CM/S35VN, which is why all my Leatherman tools were switched to the S30V instead. It's just a bit better than either one in edge holding. The 154CM will always be less chippy/less brittle than S30V or S35VN in my experience though. Thanks for the feedback!
Question? Do you think Microtech uses a lower HRC on their M390MK to keep it tough, since they're main use is for Tactical Manual Folders and Side Opening Autos and OTF Pocket Knives? :-) Peace, Stiletto :-)
Thank you Jared! Some great information here, answered a few questions that have been nagging at me a bit, and explained some difficulties I have had in the past. Also I completely agree with you on your assessment of Magnacut. It is currently my favorite premium Steel with 14c28n and ar-rpm9 being my favorite and preferred budget Steel
Aarpm9 is not a powdered metallurgy steel and 9cr18mov that its based on is higher wear. Aarpm9 may provide more toughness. But were talking about folders.
@tacticalcenter8658 yes it is, if you type in on google it is in the first line of information also arrmp9 from artisan and cjrb is advertised as such on their website
@tacticalcenter8658 also I didn't say it was powder metallurgy I said along with 14c28n it is among my favorite budget steals. But with that being said it is a powder metal Steel...
@@danielabbott9312 There is a small tool steel manufacturer in east of China and the Chinese version VG10 is also coming from this factory. You can tailor make the steel composition you want at this mill, but they do not make any powdered stainless steel, because they don’t have the equipment. It‘s electric arc steel. This is also where aarpm9 is made.
Considering artisan/ cjrb is the only company that sell this Steel and it is proprietary to them and they've never released where it's made even though there is strong indications that it is from China, I find it hard to believe you know the exact location and what is in their shop. also every piece of information you can find on it states that it's powder metallurgy you can even go on chat GPT or googles AI bard and it says the same thing. Give me some kind of proof a website something I can go to that way I have something for my lawsuit because everything I'm finding is indicating you don't know what you're talking about....
Nice list. 10V/K390 is one of my favorites as well. I have a small fixed edc blade in 10V that I keep with me daily. Got a Sheepdog in 10V that is a delight. Spyderco treats their K390 well too. Magnacut is great. Vanex is great. I love 4V/Vanadis 4E and would really want it on my list. Great vid as always.
You certainly have done your research, but may I ask what do you use your knives for? For me 80% of my knife work is boxes, mail and small home cutting tasks. I may be stretching it saying 20% is used for cleaning game while hunting. While I enjoy and appreciate the high end steels, I have very little need for them.
I'm not sure if there was a similar video on the channel, but it would be great to make a rating of knife manufacturers who harden their knives better.
I've got some great knives, and in the steels that Jared has mentioned, but the Stretch 2 in K390 just won't leave my pocket. Nor the Ladybug in K390 on my keychain.
Good question about ZDP. It seem to have an incredible edge. Rockstead are making ultra premium knifes. I saw à video of cutting test on ropes and about 10 inches of paper and the result is unbelievable 💪👍🏻
YESS any Vanax knife I take to work is covered in micro chips. It’s my fav steel for EDC but isn’t great for anything even remotely hard use. Magnacut wins in that category. Being in NC corrosion resistance is v important for me.
i live in nc and corrosion resistance isn’t a huge deal for me, i regularly carry a cruwear PM2 and haven’t had problems so far. mine is dlc coated though.
@@acid6urns I have tons of trouble w corrosion haha. To be fair I’m in HVAC/refrigeration so it can get sweaty and wet at times. But even if I don’t oil my blades every few months some will rust sitting in the case. The coating makes a BIG difference especially the thick Spyderco coatings.
One of my longest lasting beast mode knives is my 20yr old Benchmade AFOII (9051SBK I believe?) in 154CM and it is great but yea it (the edge) doesnt last as long as some others. Had good experience with Guardian Tactical's ELMAX. My only M390 is a Microtech Socom that came unacceptably dull and I havent tried to sharpen it yet as I dont have the diamond Lansky stones. I still wanna send it off for a professional sharpening. Super nice Shirogorov man! Thats one of my grail knives!
I've never considered steels in the sense of what kind of edge it can hold...you have given me a lot to think about it. Thoughts on 3V vs. CPM-Cruwear?
Relatively similar steels in terms of function and performance. 3v is tougher but cruwear is still good. Cruwear will hold an edge a little longer. Neither are stainless but both are on the higher corrosion resistance end of "non-stainless". They have a similar hrc range, sharpen ability, ect. I feel 3v tends to take a slightly nicer edge, but it could just be the knife I sharpened had a slightly higher hrc. The choice is really just 3V for more toughness, cruwear for more abrasion resistance.
3v is fine when they don't use Crucible's ht protocols. Using the low temper and delta protocols makes it better. Its not a great steel for folders though. Cruwear is better for folders and can be ht with Crucible's protocols decently and can go up to 65rc like benchmade do (Spyderco is lower). Theirs even more advanced cruwear protocols but not often used outside of custom knife maker's.
Roman Landes Heat Treatment recommendation: Now this is what I would recommend for heat treat cpm 3v: 1st preheat: 500-600°C, equalize 2nd preheat:800-900°C, equalize Authenize: 1060-1070°C, equalize, soak 30-35min Quench in Oil preheated 60-80°C Cryo: immediately after cleaning, minimum -80°C or lower soak 30min 1st Temper: 150°C equalize, soak 2hrs, quench in water Cryo: immediately after temper 2nd Temper: 180-200°C equalize, soak 2hrs should give you 60+ and a fine durable grain. RGDS Roman This is why I would do it like this. The "receipt" suitable is for a vacuum furnace (Quench with maximum pressure) or a regular cline, but surface protection has to be assured. Salt bath will cut the soak time approximately by 1/3 and thus give better aust-grain. The preheating steps will assure the the austenization steps can be done quick. Quicker speed >> smaller grain Authenization temperature is dedicated to dissolve Chrome and Molybdenum >> fair hardness and some enhanced "Stainresistance" is to be expected. The vanadium will remain in the steel bond as a compound of carbon, hence aust-grain cant really grow The oil quench is suitable for any steel out of the air hardening classes. The thin cross sections get higher hardness after quench (greater volume fraction of martensite) and a less stabilized volume fraction retained austenite. (The volume fraction of RA can be expected (near guess) between 20 and 30% or even higher) Warping of the blade shall not be an issue with these materials. If you have done a lot of hard mechanical work before hardening (milling, grinding,)then do a stress relief so warping gets less likely. The cryo needs to be done as quick as possible below -80°C. RA tends to stabilize rather quickly after the quench (some reports speak of minutes) The longer you wait, the less efficient the transformation to untempered martensite will be. And a minimum of -70°C is necessary to get enough stress into the micro structure, so the transformation (RA>>Martensite) process can restart again. Extensive soak time is not necessary since the process runs at hypersonic speed. But still there will be remains of RA that need to be addressed by the 2nd cryo. The first temper is a low temper so the remaining RA is stabilized at the lowest level possible and at the same time there is enough stress relief in the martensite that has been built and furthermore the transformation from tetragonal to cubic martensite is started. The water quench speeds the whole thing up and avoids precipitation of embrittling phases. Then the rest of the remaining RA will be attacked by the 2nd cryo (usually the RA will drop below 5% volume fraction) so burr formation is less likely. 2nd temper will now temper the untempered martensite build up by the cryo and bring the blade to a fully tempered martensitic structure with a low volume fraction of RA and a fair amount of carbides undissolved. Of course there is the question why not temper it at 540°C? First of all, if you don't have access to cryo then this is your way to go. In my studies of edge stability I did extensive work to compare secondary hardening and low temper with cryo. The results (reference is my graduate thesis 1999 Munich University of Applied Sciences) I found considerable higher edge stability with the samples that had low temper/cryo The material used at the time was ATS-34 all with the same charge and thus the same condition of austinization, but with different temper cycles. RGDS Roman
As far as a mid-grade steel goes I think boker Plus does a really good heat treatment job on their vg-10 and as far as in 690 goes I only have a couple of knives that use that steel and those are the real steel Luna boost with the titanium frame lock and fat carbon, the thing is the ground so thin that they just slice so damn well and it's a joy too use. To put it in context you can grab that short little blade which is under 3 in and actually flex that blade.
I dont really like 154CM, because I like tough steels. I just cant understand why more makers dont use CPM 154. Its almost twice as tough as 154CM. Kershaw has been using it for years on their Launch series knives that arent really budget, but very affordable. Why wont more people use it?
Huh? Toughness is one of 154cm selling points. It's about as tough as s30v. That ain't me, that's larin of knife steel nerds assessment. As for why they don't go with cpm, cost and availability. I've several knives in 154 and I beat the tar out of em, drop em, throw em, pry with em. Did you shoot it or stand on it?
For me s90v, the enigma of a softer, simplistic composition stainless steel excelling in edge retention even beyond k390, 10V and its predecessor s110v.
@@optimuscrime608 u never saw larrin Thomas's edge retention chartt? Jared displayed it in this video. First locate k390 then look above it towards the left. There you will find s90v sitting on high in glory.
@@optimuscrime608 I own spyderco s90v and their saki city k390. The k390 has alote of better qualities then the s90v but it doesn't outperform the s90v's edge retention, atleast not in my experience. Spyderco's k390 was however definitely better then my kizer and benchmade s90v, but not up against spydercos. Also how do you know the k390's HRC in Larrins chart? Where does it state that in his work? Usually if there's discrepancies between the edge retention performance based on various HT factors he'll draw a line from one point to another like he did with the 10V, s30v and magnacut.
@@optimuscrime608You're overestimating the abrasion resistance gain from hardness. The abrasion resistance is primarily determined by carbide volume and type in high end steels, not pure hrc. A higher hrc will boost the abrasion resistance, but it's a marginal gain. The bigger difference in the 2 steels (performance wise) is edge stability. Spyderco k390 from seki is supposed to be ~65 hrc. K390 is also significantly tougher than s90v. Both of these facts mean that k390 is capable of taking a more acute edge. That change in geometry can put the blade performance of k390 over s90v.
I DID MAKE A MISTAKE IN THE VIDEO WHEN SPEAKING ABOUT CRUWEAR, THE TOUGHNESS WOULD BE AN 8/10, WHEN READING THE SPECS I READ THE BLADE HQ ONE WHICH IS NOT AS ACCURATE ON THAT PARTICULAR STEEL AS LARRIN ON KNIFE STEEL NERDS. I LINKED INFORMATION IN THE DESCRIPTION TO CHARTS ETC.. AND VANAX IS ACTUALLY 8/10 IN EDGE RETENTION. THE CHART I WAS READING WAS NOT ACCURATE FOR THE EDGE RETENTION ON VANAX. THANK YOU FOR WATCHING
a lowercase comment
You are the first time that I have heard a knife noob talk about sharpening angle, congratulations. Some steels make a good razor and some steels make a good axe. To state it simply, we can expect a correlation between angle and strength but that really doesn't take the texture of the steel or grain orientation into account. However, this is a concern that we really can't avoid.
Usually, I will sharpen my everyday work knife at 35 degrees. It is the steepest angle that I can get a decent edge on, just barely shaving sharp if I putt a little too much effort into sharpening it. But, overall, use it for a beater and sharpen it again. That is my minimum standard for a pocket knife. Kitchenware, somebody is just going to try to cut the dishes in half with it so why bother with putting much thought into it.
I do agree with you about 14c28n. I had one knife in it, and I was amazed me how easily the thing sharpened to a razor. I didn't know that it was made out of a modern razor stock, thank you for that information, I'll want to buy another.
154CM isn't nearly a budget steel. I still own one knife in ATS34 and it holds an edge on my "sloyd" knife better than any steel that I would usually buy. I did try to sharpen that knife well enough to shave with at one time. My Case XX was a much more comfortable shave. Overall, ats34 like 30 degrees for whittling hardwood and give you the razor burn from hell.
420 try it again at 35 degrees. It's actually a great steel for the tackle box or backpack because nobody ever washes the thing before they close the top and dendrites start forming. I had a diving knife in 420. I tried sharpening it at 40 degree axe angle. I did that because your hands are always wet when working around the water, so I figured that the divers were right and you wouldn't want it too sharp. At 40 degrees, 420 will still shave hair.
440c, 440b, 440a. A subject in itself and a good lesson for you. 440c was intended for mass production of cutlery. Back in the 1980's you could pick up a huge variety of knives made from US made 440c. The Japanese were buying it, making and selling premium knives out of it. Fiskars/Gerber was selling huge amounts of knives made from it. It was never a very good steel until the Japanese started selling it back to us. There is a reason for this; 440c has a secret. If you were to buy 440c and have it shipped immediately from the mill, it arrives in an annealed condition. You may then cut, stamp and make your blades from a rather soft metal. Once you stop and put the product in the warehouse, the 400c will begin to age harden. If you simply leave your knives in the warehouse, they will harden themselves to approximately 57rc. (So, it says 57rc-59rc, no point in testing it either.) Now, if you were to do as the Japanese did with it, it never gets shipped to Japan in time, you will have a completely different result. The steel manufacturers will tell you this. If you give it some thought, you could just buy up old knives and fix it. (Kershaw is actually worse than Gerber is at it.)
D2, the worst knife steel that I know of. If it were rusty old bedsprings, instead, at least it wouldn't take all day to sharpen it. It was designed and intended for making tools for cutting metals, A2 and O1 have the same intention. We can assume that nobody intended any of these steels be used at any sharpening angle flatter than 45 degrees.
Some of the steel mills will go on and on about the carbide size in their sales pitch. Give this some thought. If your minimum standard for sharpening a knife is a 2000 grit abrasive, why would you even consider making a knife out of a steel that has carbides bigger than your sharpening stone? If your minimum standard is a stropped edge then there is no point in trying to strop a bunch of glued together rocks. In short, your stropping compound is finer than a half micron. (You like REX45. Going from memory, REX 90 was intended for cutting steel and REX45 was intended for "machine cutting blades." I don't know if the tanneries use it or not.)
Hope that that helps. (I'm looking for a skiving knife today. I think I'll buy an old Hickory paring knife.)
Do you have chart from sk5 steel? Would be nice to have something familiar to compare with.
@@joeljokinen9051 I owned a Cold Steel in SK5. That was years back when there really weren't many specialty knife steels available. If we were to assume that Cold Steel did an excellent job of tempering, they did. (In this day and age, your Cold Steel's are a name only.)
It is basically 1065 modified...as such, on any big heavy blade it is a better choice than a steel that cracks and shatters on impact. I chose it because I was growing tired of spending a lot of time on 440c. It does sharpen faster than 440c so, for a tool that will primarily be whittling soft woods, it is a good choice.
Most of the whittling knife manufactures consider 1095 as premium and I was hoping to find a supplier where I could try 52100. (The equivalents to 1065 are the low end Beaver Craft brand that is highly recommended by the RUclips reviews government.) 52100 has specs of a huge improvement in tensile strength and I personally think that strength is just as important as compressional strength(Hardness).
In the meantime, you could just buy a Moranive in carbon steel or a Tramontana machete and find out. Specs on paper are one thing but actual experience is another. Human beings have been pounding cutting tools out of rocks for at least twenty thousand years, there is no need for me to decide that the better rocks won't get better. (They seem to have left the best, low cost razor stock in the closet because somebody made a cheaper one - 12c27.)
I have to say I always walk away feeling like I've learned something from your videos which is why your Chanel is at the top of my favorites.
I appreciate that!
Same here.
That's why I became a member. Few bucks a month to support the lad. 👍
Exactly !!! And always get a thumbs up but I got 4 kids 2 n diapers and 1 in collage so sending cash isn't in the budget but the dude that does thank you for supporting great creators like this guy
@@experienceprecision5406 I appreciate that 👊
Shoutout to Spyderco for using lots of different steels so we can sharpen them!
I love how excited this man gets talking about knife steels !
S30V does just fine for me holds a good edge is easy to sharpen responds to a strop real well. People hate on it but it just works for me 👍
I didnt know people hated on S30V lol
@@MattH-wg7ou Just compared to M390 and Magnacut, etc. If the price is reasonable, most people are just fine with it. You just can't price it like a premium steel any more since it no longer out-performs most of them.
Agreed. There was a time where S30V was the industry standard for a "decent" knife. Times just change and we have a lot of other options. But for most people, S30V is going to do the job for EDC and be very low maintenance as it doesn't rust easily. There a plethora of solid EDC knives with that steel. I've explored into other steels higher range and I have to say I would always feel just better about having my EDC with S30V becuase I know it'll do its job and take a moderate beating.@@IlliniDog01 What I would say is though is that these knives with S30V haven't really declined in price (cough cough BENCHMADE) and these companies need to realize that the sliding scale has forced that steel into mid-tier
@@IlliniDog01It’s still a premium steel that out performs lower, more commonly used grades of steel.
S30V is very close to the best steels on every category.
Bro you are the king of sharpeners. Wealth of knowledge and willing to teach and share it. Thanks man.
This is a SUPER video
All the info I'd ever need
Lots of effort has gone into production
Thank you!
Thanks for the content Jared. I received a Knife with nitro v for Christmas. I have been having trouble keeping an edge but after watching some of your sharpening videos I realized I was overstropping and taking it to to high of a grit for my needs. Thanks for helping to sharpen my skills and setting my edges straight. I really enjoy your informative detailed videos
if you want to go with a higher grit finish lower the angle, with any steel the lower the angle the better a fine edge will turn out, so if you are going with a mid range angle keep it in the medium grit
@@NeevesKnives thanks for providing the tools and a little confidence. I have a better understanding of what I am looking at and looking for. I'm now willing to explore more in my sharpening without feeling like I'm screwing it up
For sure. You want a razor polish? Better make it thin as a razor to slice well. Nitro-V, 14c28n are made to be razor blade steels. I like toothy edges myself, though. Maybe 1k at most but even a good 400 grit.
Awesome this taught me allot and my next knife purchase I had planned was the right choice it'll get used for work and seld defense I have tiny girl hands and am 5'5 about 135lbs so ergonomics of the knife I've chosen are amazing I chose the Joker Avispa S with the burl birch handle and 14c28n blade I can't wait to get it man it's so so sweet I been wanting a good stainless 3in blade now I can get my true Damascus 1095 blade a break it was a gift and is sentimental in value to me it's priceless because of the person who gifted it to me and my benchmade saddle mountain skinner is a felony for me if I carry it concealed stock sticks because that knife is unbelievably good was gonna get a hidden canyon but it's hard to stomach the price tag so Joker Avispa S is gonna be
My TOP 5 steels: 1) Edge/Bevel geometries. 2) Succesful heat treatment. 3) Handle design. 4) Locking mechanism (or sheath if it's fixed blade) 5) Blade thickness/overall design,not for the looks, but for the performance/functionality of the tool.
Lastly, I don't have a favorite steel for fodlers, I enjoy though, Ballbearing steel,Vanadis 4 Extra and CPM 3V, on my outdoor fixed blade knives that I use.
Yes. 52100 can be in an awful knife or a great one, and same deal with MagnaCut. Having a hard steel for its toughness is ideal, then optimize the geometry for the task. 14c28n is the GOAT. Edge geometry and hard, you get super edge retention and it cuts way easier while you're at it, it's tough enough to support it unlike high carbide steels. MagnaCut is better, if you can afford it, adds extra edge retention for a little tiny bit less toughness.
I love it when you do videos of this nature...myself and many many others have learned so very much from Neeves Knives . You have the very best channel for learning about steels, angels, geometry, grits, stones ect. That 8 have viewed.
So keep it up BROTHER!
CPM 20CV and CPM S45VN are two of my underrated favs. Fantastic well balanced steels for this hot and humid Houston climate.
Way too brittle man no steel should have a glass edge. Hey be careful!!! Not a line on premium steels
@@thomaszinecker1785I've never had chipping issues with s35vn so I just stick with that and 14c28n as they strop up in like 10 seconds so I keep a shaving edge for long time with those
how tf is 20cv underrated? literally half the knives on the market are in 20cv or m390 😂
@@acid6urns That fact the 20CV and M390 are more readily available than S90V shows they are very overrated if anything
@@thomaszinecker1785 name a single 20cv steel blade you broke…
Neeves, I'm really appreciating your deep dive into the different attributes of steels and what can be expected of them with different grits. Ii tried for years to explain just how effective micro teeth can be in cutting. Particularly tough materials. On one on BF paid attention as the local guru there who claimed to be a certified, Metallurgical engineer said no such thing existed. I finally did a deep dive into his history and found that he had so such degree but had attended a trade school. I guess his country does not have the standards we enjoy.
Your are doing Fine and are actually getting the communities attention! Good Job!
KnifeMaker
K390 is my current favorite as well. I got the spyderco leaf jumper in k390 and it was just a strange experience. Just a beast of a steel.
Love k390 zdp189 and truly have never been disappointed with s90v
I would trust Dr.Larrin’s data over blade hq. You do great work brother 👍🏻
I really liked this video. I wish i would have leaned about the different steel options years ago. I had no idea how many options there were. I mainly purchase budget knives and normally look for 14c28n right off the bat. I really like that steel. Thanks for sharing your knowledge about this. It's very helpful and interesting.
Glad to hear that cruwear is high on your list. It has become my very favorite steel, specifically in a pocket knife. I love it.
I love listening to experts explain the characteristics of blade steels. Early on, this info played a huge role in my knife choices. But then thinking about how I used my knives, i concluded that the steel wasn't that big a deal. I mean, how much better wiil magnacut cut up a sammich over 14C28N? For me, it's just not the end all, be all when evaluating a knife. If was big into collecting/reselling I might feel different. Great content!
just ordered that Manix 2 lw in Rex 45. Super stoked for my first spyderco 🤟🏼
Manix 2 is the best spyderco too. Good buy. Head the flytanium and get yourself a metal ball bearing cage and thumb slider for maximum toughness.
@@deadvikingtrollsill check those out thanks
Try a Native 5, too
One of the two most helpful videos for me. Keep up the good work. Please!
Nice work. I mostly agree with your top 5. I adore cruwear. There's no better steel for a hard use knife, imo. If I had to take one knife to rely on for a few months 100 miles from the nearest road, it would be made of cruwear. For folding knives, I love k390 and Rex45. For both I have knives that I've used for 3+ years that still have the factory edge. They just strop back to shaving sharp. Amazing stuff!
I have a Civivi Elementun in D2 and I love this compact pocket knife. Smooth, reasonably priced and very goof for EDC. Holds an edge that's good enough for me.
Thanks Jerad for sharing all your experience with these knife steels. For Magnacut, you mentioned HRC is very critical to the edge retention. I'm wondering with all the models you cut tested and/or sharpened, which companies do you think are doing great heat treatment on MC?
Well done good sir! Loving the rex45 and cruwear spyderco's i recently aquired.
Good to hear, just ordered a Manix 2 in Rex 45 and was somewhat second guessing my decision until I watched your video and another one praising it’s abilities.
👊
420hc by Latrobe is a very tough stainless, even tougher than Nitro V and 12c27…it can hold an edge enough to process a deer or elk if heat treated by Buck… been using it for years
In order from favorite to least favorite for me. CPM M4, Cruwear, Magnacut, S45VN.
Cruwear and magnacut are pretty perfect steels. M4/4v are pretty perfect BUT you can't sharpen them AND they rust easy! So that's not a "premium" steel for a noobie ya know? I thought 20cv was but it has even more warnings: hard to sharpen. Brittle edge.
@@thomaszinecker1785M390 (20CV) was my favorite until i started sharpening it. Now, i prefer CruWear or MagnaCut.
sometimes i really like these types of videos instead of a knife review. thumbs up .
This guy! Absolute font of all sharpening knowledge. To have come from a shady background and risen to this level is something to be deeply proud of, the knife community as a whole is all the better for having Jared at the forefront.
You're a living legend my dude.
Your the man! Dropping all the knowledge....Awesome channel!
Thank You. Cleared up years of confusion. Your explanation of Geometry vs Toughness especially helpful.
I recently bought a 14c28n qsp grebe. It cost me 85 doll hairs. Which is the most expensive in my humble collection. It does seem sharper out of the box than the qsp penguin in d2...I haven't made the leap into high-end knives yet...
Perfect!
Low budget steels present an excellent opportunity to experiment with different sharpening stones, angles, and stone grits - you'll increase your sharpening skills, while also discovering your preferences on edge angles, and fine or toothy edges.
This experience will apply later when you experiment with more premium steels.
Awesome video. Always appreciate your insight into steels.
You have really come a long way homie, I'm loving the wisdom u have developed over the years, keep the videos coming my friend😁
Lots of knowledge here. Always appreciate these videos.
My favorite knife hands down is the harbor freight icon D2 knife! Very sharp out of the box and it’s never rusted, it’s my everyday but if it ever rusts I’m definitely walking in and warranting it that same day for a new one! Have it for 3 months now never needed to re sharpen
D2 have a great edge retention
People forget that d2 is the og super steel
I am a very sweaty guy and i work in outdoor temps year round. I get at least a little rust on most steels in my pocket in a workday. I also like to have good to great edge retention. Before magnacut came out my favorite was S110V but my options for daily carry without rust were limited basically to Spyderco or quiet carry with vanax but i don't like quiet carry knives much. When magnacut came out and became wide spread i was excited because it really opened up my options. And i find that it holds a pretty good edge!
S90v! Highly stainless, fantastic edge retention with reasonable toughness.
@@EDCandLaceS90v is my preferred of the high abrasion resistance stainlesses, but its corrosion resistance is so-so. It's more in line with s30v. S110v has notably better stain resistance, even if its toughness/edge retention balance is a little worse.
While not my preferred steel, the 20CV family should offer really solid stain resistance when done well. Not quite as good as magancut, but roughly in line with s110.
My fav is when you buy a Spyderco knife in 110, and the hardware and pins rust but the blade doesn't. LOL.
Completely agree!
3V and CruWear for great high toughness and good above average edge retention and slightly below average corrosion resistance.
10V and K390 for good above average toughness and great high edge retention and slightly below average corrosion resistance.
Magnacut for balanced very good high toughness and good above average edge retention and great high corrosion resistance.
Really good video, love your explanations for your choices. Given me something to think about with what grit's I want to be using with my different steels!
Bro, your channel is so informative. Love learning about this stuff! Thanks for taking the time to break it down.
Seems that you are right about sharpening s30v, cause ever since I switched from a smooth strop to a medium coarse strop I noticed it’s keeping a better edge and it preforms better when it’s slightly toothy aswell. Thanks kneeves, the sharpening tips help and I concur with your thoughts from experience
I absolutely luv the Spyderco Cruwear. :-) Peace, Stiletto :-)
Great, great video. Never too old to learn.
I knew this was going to be interesting, but once again you slammed it out of the park Jarred !
So much specific and to the point information...
Great job ! Thanks !
K390 is definitely a sharpener's steel. K390, M4, S90v, 3V, Cruwear are my favorites. The wharncliffe Endura K390 is probably my favorite cardboard cutter.
Just found this channel and love the level of detail you went through. Now I want something I already wanted for a long time a knife made of cru-Wear. And maybe one of k390 and another one of magnacut.
👊
Great video brother and I agree with you on all points. I happen to absolutely love k390 as well and all the different edges it can take. Thanks for sharing it’s appreciated 👊🏼
Magnacut is only good with high rc on pocket knives. After using a 65rc custom that was 9thou bte I will NEVER buy soft magnacut again. I've learned high hardness is benefit on just about any steel on a pocketknife.
As always my man great video can really see the effort you put into them and man learned so much from you keep it up
I peeped Steve Callari kitchen knife, I picked 2 up and they’re amazing.
25:55 I like a certain minimum of toughness on folders for the edge alone, not for the blade itself. I like honing and stropping and an edge that rather bends over than it chips is serving me well I think.
Please feel free to chime in on my opinion, I am always open to new thoughts.
This vid nailed it. 154 is the Everyman steel. K390 what can you say. It impresses everyone. Have to add my other favs. M4 m390, 110v.
I’m currently using a civivi Altus with nitro v. It’s just my cheap work knife that I use everyday on boxes,opening packages,plastic straps,wire ties,prying etc. I’ve had really good luck out of it even though it’s considered a budget steel/knife. It’s been much batter than my crkt that I couldn’t keep sharpened. Better than aus 8. I think it’s probably comparable or better than my delica vg-10.
Yeah my edge retention tests had the Nitro V winning over the 10cr Damascus which is the same thing
Thanks for all the sharpening tips. My knives have never been sharper. Thanks Jared
Love this video. Nice work man - super informative and interesting. Makes me want to expand my steel variety 👌
I love spyderco mostly because they bring us a lot of awsome steels we wouldn't have otherwise . Spy27 and s45 have been amazing for as a work beaters cause the maintenance is near nothing .
Hello
So I've used and had pocket knives all my life just about for multiple purposes from work to camping and everything in-between. Now I'm no expert on steels and sharpening plus knowing the potential of edges. But as of the past few year's most my edc knives have been made with D2 steel. I own several other's with different steels, but I find I use more stuff with D2 then anything else. And over the past year I've been really trying too get better with sharpening my stuff and learning all I can. I have a wide variety of stones from very coarse too even some stones that are super smooth like marble. Now when I began my journey into sharpening and was buying all kinds of stones and strops etc I got some of these stones in kit's and had no idea how a stone that so smooth like a marble how it does anything lol. I'm talking stuff that is like around 6000 grit and up too I believe I have a few that are even 1200 grit and possibly higher. Now my 2 strops I own have 2 different leathers one is rougher and one is more smooth. I'm telling you all this because I'd like you're input on the D2 steel and what leather is better the rough or smooth and also are stones above 3000 even worth using 🤔 if you wouldn't mind could you please explain your opinions please and thank you. I guess being I'm 43 I should know this stuff but I just never really took it seriously growing up till a few year's back. Now I do know that D2 is a budget steel and mostly used in the tool industry for wrenches etc. But I really wanna hear you're opinions on it for a knife blade because I've been actually liking it. My only complaint has been getting it sharp and it staying decently sharp.
K390 is my favorite right now for EDC. Edge is great and I can get it sharper than others, but I also found I like it as a "user" more partially because it will patina and show use, and I am not afraid to "mess it up" like other safe-queen knives I own.
3v is my favorite for fixed blade/outdoor knives, although magnacut is up there now, depending on use. Sadly don't own any Cru-Wear, I may have to remedy that soon.
Lastly, I would say CTS-XHP is underrated, but it could just be that I only ever carried it in my Chaparral, which has excellent blade geometry and heat-treat for a small EDC fixed blade.
i absolutely agree, and wish we could get more cts xhp, the best ive tried was from spyderco and it made me fall in love with it. im not sure why more companies are not using it i heard a rumor that its getting hard to get in large quantities
Try k890, you'll like it better than 3v. Or if you want better 3v, try the low temper protocols like delta3v etc.
I also heard Cold Steel moved away from HXP due to availability issues. @@NeevesKnives
In the end people just don't use it enough for it to be more available in larger quantities. Maybe CTS just ain't big enough.
Good info. My favourite steels are K390/M4 for folders and 80crv2/cru-wear for fixed.
Your passion, enthusiasm, and extensive knowledge base is Super Impressive!! Thanks, as always! ✨😺
Jared is fascinating to watch. This channel is what got me into knives 2 years ago. I would have never imagined ever having a knife addiction but here I am, still buying knives I don’t need.😂
Wouaaaa,,, you just show the Kunwu Compadre and the Quiet Carry Drift. Two of my favorite ones ..! ^^
Jerad I highly recommend you pick up the K294 & CPM T15 Spyderco Mules. You will LOVE them. I know you like K390 and K294 is very similar, K294 is almost identical to CPM 10V. CPM Rex T15 has also amazing wear resistance, it has 4.9% Vanadium 12% Tungsten & 5% Cobalt, and a hardness between 66-68HRC. But I don't think there are that many of the Mules left, so just a heads up I also contacted several Custom Knife makers and Spyderco about the new Rex steel: CPM Rex 54, so hopefully we see someone from the community get their hands on some to test it. It should have better edge retention and toughness than Rex 45, it's a (M35 class High speed Tool Steel. Crucible describes it as an "M4 modified with Cobalt" and should be able to reach 67HRC or more. Rex 54 has the same Cobalt level as M35 & T15 So I CAN'T wait to see that get tested by the community.
another one i dont think i have heard of i will have to check it out thank you
@@NeevesKnives You will love the K294 Mule it's almost identical to 10V in composition and for $95 it's such an amazing deal. I hope to see Spyderco do a Rex 54 Mule in the future since they have done every other Rex Steel. But will probably take a LONG time before we see it since they have so much on their plate.
@@Cid_1 When I saw such a great supply of 10V/K294 in Mule Team, I ended up getting five. And my girlfriend just had to have one for her kitchen, with all the oiling/dampness precautions.
Well knowledgeable video to watch brother 😎👊keep on keepn on U Da Man 💪💪💪
It's realy very interresting to learn about the differents blade steel !! ^^
Vanax/CTS-XHP/Magnacut/S35vn all score as VERY well balanced steels in all categories, scoring 5 or higher in all fields before trade-offs begin tipping the balances.
Note that a well heat treated 440C was equal with 154CM (not to be confused with CPM154...which uses a more advanced steel production process).
The only difference I've seen in cpm 154 is toughness and maybe a couple percent jump in edge retention i personally prefer 154cm. a well heat treated 440c on paper is almost equivalent however it's not what I've seen in practice during controlled edge retention tests. 154cm usually gets slightly less than s35vn from my experience
@@NeevesKnives I agree. I have an older 440C heat treated in Japan that is excellent, but have never ran across another as good. At least not from any American companies. I may try to dig up a Buck to check on a BoS heat treat in 440C...they're not overly common.
I agree also on the 154CM/S35VN, which is why all my Leatherman tools were switched to the S30V instead. It's just a bit better than either one in edge holding. The 154CM will always be less chippy/less brittle than S30V or S35VN in my experience though.
Thanks for the feedback!
Such a great video and something I trust your opinion on! Thanks
Question? Do you think Microtech uses a lower HRC on their M390MK to keep it tough, since they're main use is for Tactical Manual Folders and Side Opening Autos and OTF Pocket Knives? :-) Peace, Stiletto :-)
Thank you Jared! Some great information here, answered a few questions that have been nagging at me a bit, and explained some difficulties I have had in the past. Also I completely agree with you on your assessment of Magnacut. It is currently my favorite premium Steel with 14c28n and ar-rpm9 being my favorite and preferred budget Steel
Aarpm9 is not a powdered metallurgy steel and 9cr18mov that its based on is higher wear. Aarpm9 may provide more toughness. But were talking about folders.
@tacticalcenter8658 yes it is, if you type in on google it is in the first line of information also arrmp9 from artisan and cjrb is advertised as such on their website
@tacticalcenter8658 also I didn't say it was powder metallurgy I said along with 14c28n it is among my favorite budget steals. But with that being said it is a powder metal Steel...
@@danielabbott9312 There is a small tool steel manufacturer in east of China and the Chinese version VG10 is also coming from this factory. You can tailor make the steel composition you want at this mill, but they do not make any powdered stainless steel, because they don’t have the equipment. It‘s electric arc steel. This is also where aarpm9 is made.
Considering artisan/ cjrb is the only company that sell this Steel and it is proprietary to them and they've never released where it's made even though there is strong indications that it is from China, I find it hard to believe you know the exact location and what is in their shop. also every piece of information you can find on it states that it's powder metallurgy you can even go on chat GPT or googles AI bard and it says the same thing. Give me some kind of proof a website something I can go to that way I have something for my lawsuit because everything I'm finding is indicating you don't know what you're talking about....
That tomlov camera makes your videos even better than they already are. Details matter
I loved it also, and have one (Tomlov DM401) on order.
Nice list. 10V/K390 is one of my favorites as well. I have a small fixed edc blade in 10V that I keep with me daily. Got a Sheepdog in 10V that is a delight. Spyderco treats their K390 well too. Magnacut is great. Vanex is great. I love 4V/Vanadis 4E and would really want it on my list. Great vid as always.
Great video and I highly appreciate the information.
We wouldn't have these steels without spyderco.. that's why they are my favorite brand
1.k390 (which ive seen knives from Petrified Fish very cheap, like $40 range).
2. Cruwear
3. Rex 45
4. Magnacut
5. Vanax
You certainly have done your research, but may I ask what do you use your knives for?
For me 80% of my knife work is boxes, mail and small home cutting tasks. I may be stretching it saying 20% is used for cleaning game while hunting.
While I enjoy and appreciate the high end steels, I have very little need for them.
I'm not sure if there was a similar video on the channel, but it would be great to make a rating of knife manufacturers who harden their knives better.
Yes. The heat treat is so important yet so hidden in the production science. The answer is to know the hrc. Also hard to find.
CPM Cru-Wear is my favorite! I absolutely love my Spyderco Manix 2 in Cru-Wear. I am yet to sharpen it!
Lol, of the knives I own I have 3 that I carry in rotation. K390 endura, rex45 para2, cruwear millie. I like super crispy too.
I've got some great knives, and in the steels that Jared has mentioned, but the Stretch 2 in K390 just won't leave my pocket. Nor the Ladybug in K390 on my keychain.
Awesome video, as ALWAYS brother! Thanks!
How do you feel about ZDP-189?
Good question about ZDP. It seem to have an incredible edge. Rockstead are making ultra premium knifes. I saw à video of cutting test on ropes and about 10 inches of paper and the result is unbelievable 💪👍🏻
I personally prefer nitro v or k390 for folders. 52100 or cruwear for fixed blades. For toughness applications I like 8670
Loving Aeb-l from Tkell with my Raider 🤙🏽
I agree my S110V is very finicky. I hated sharpening it. S30v/S45VN is my favorite. My M390 Ultratech isn’t too bad to sharpen either.
Rex 45 takes a beautiful patina just like 4V & K390 etc. I much rather have one of those steel with a patina than a coating
K390 is without a doubt my favorite.
Thank you for this great information! I learned a lot!!!
Amazingly thorough and informative video.
Hey Jared how is the heat treat on Kizers Rex 45 with their mystic knife?
Based steel preference. Especially for k390 and cru-wear. Absolutely killer steels.
YESS any Vanax knife I take to work is covered in micro chips. It’s my fav steel for EDC but isn’t great for anything even remotely hard use. Magnacut wins in that category. Being in NC corrosion resistance is v important for me.
i live in nc and corrosion resistance isn’t a huge deal for me, i regularly carry a cruwear PM2 and haven’t had problems so far. mine is dlc coated though.
@@acid6urns I have tons of trouble w corrosion haha. To be fair I’m in HVAC/refrigeration so it can get sweaty and wet at times. But even if I don’t oil my blades every few months some will rust sitting in the case. The coating makes a BIG difference especially the thick Spyderco coatings.
One of my longest lasting beast mode knives is my 20yr old Benchmade AFOII (9051SBK I believe?) in 154CM and it is great but yea it (the edge) doesnt last as long as some others.
Had good experience with Guardian Tactical's ELMAX.
My only M390 is a Microtech Socom that came unacceptably dull and I havent tried to sharpen it yet as I dont have the diamond Lansky stones. I still wanna send it off for a professional sharpening.
Super nice Shirogorov man! Thats one of my grail knives!
I've never considered steels in the sense of what kind of edge it can hold...you have given me a lot to think about it.
Thoughts on 3V vs. CPM-Cruwear?
Relatively similar steels in terms of function and performance. 3v is tougher but cruwear is still good. Cruwear will hold an edge a little longer. Neither are stainless but both are on the higher corrosion resistance end of "non-stainless". They have a similar hrc range, sharpen ability, ect. I feel 3v tends to take a slightly nicer edge, but it could just be the knife I sharpened had a slightly higher hrc.
The choice is really just 3V for more toughness, cruwear for more abrasion resistance.
3v is fine when they don't use Crucible's ht protocols. Using the low temper and delta protocols makes it better. Its not a great steel for folders though. Cruwear is better for folders and can be ht with Crucible's protocols decently and can go up to 65rc like benchmade do (Spyderco is lower). Theirs even more advanced cruwear protocols but not often used outside of custom knife maker's.
Roman Landes Heat Treatment recommendation:
Now this is what I would recommend for heat treat cpm 3v:
1st preheat: 500-600°C, equalize
2nd preheat:800-900°C, equalize
Authenize: 1060-1070°C, equalize, soak 30-35min
Quench in Oil preheated 60-80°C
Cryo: immediately after cleaning, minimum -80°C or lower soak 30min
1st Temper: 150°C equalize, soak 2hrs, quench in water
Cryo: immediately after temper
2nd Temper: 180-200°C equalize, soak 2hrs
should give you 60+ and a fine durable grain. RGDS Roman
This is why I would do it like this.
The "receipt" suitable is for a vacuum furnace (Quench with maximum pressure) or a regular cline, but surface protection has to be assured.
Salt bath will cut the soak time approximately by 1/3 and thus give better aust-grain.
The preheating steps will assure the the austenization steps can be done quick. Quicker speed >> smaller grain
Authenization temperature is dedicated to dissolve Chrome and Molybdenum >> fair hardness and some enhanced "Stainresistance" is to be expected.
The vanadium will remain in the steel bond as a compound of carbon, hence aust-grain cant really grow
The oil quench is suitable for any steel out of the air hardening classes. The thin cross sections get higher hardness after quench (greater volume fraction of martensite) and a less stabilized volume fraction retained austenite. (The volume fraction of RA can be expected (near guess) between 20 and 30% or even higher)
Warping of the blade shall not be an issue with these materials.
If you have done a lot of hard mechanical work before hardening (milling, grinding,)then do a stress relief so warping gets less likely.
The cryo needs to be done as quick as possible below -80°C.
RA tends to stabilize rather quickly after the quench (some reports speak of minutes)
The longer you wait, the less efficient the transformation to untempered martensite will be.
And a minimum of -70°C is necessary to get enough stress into the micro structure, so the transformation (RA>>Martensite) process can restart again.
Extensive soak time is not necessary since the process runs at hypersonic speed.
But still there will be remains of RA that need to be addressed by the 2nd cryo.
The first temper is a low temper so the remaining RA is stabilized at the lowest level possible and at the same time there is enough stress relief in the martensite that has been built and furthermore the transformation from tetragonal to cubic martensite is started.
The water quench speeds the whole thing up and avoids precipitation of embrittling phases.
Then the rest of the remaining RA will be attacked by the 2nd cryo (usually the RA will drop below 5% volume fraction) so burr formation is less likely.
2nd temper will now temper the untempered martensite build up by the cryo and bring the blade to a fully tempered martensitic structure with a low volume fraction of RA and a fair amount of carbides undissolved.
Of course there is the question why not temper it at 540°C?
First of all, if you don't have access to cryo then this is your way to go.
In my studies of edge stability I did extensive work to compare secondary hardening and low temper with cryo.
The results (reference is my graduate thesis 1999 Munich University of Applied Sciences) I found considerable higher edge stability with the samples that had low temper/cryo The material used at the time was ATS-34 all with the same charge and thus the same condition of austinization, but with different temper cycles.
RGDS Roman
I would love to see Spyderco come out with a PM2 in 1075 or even 1095 carbon steel blade. Everyone is chasing the next "super stainless" tho.
5160 would be insane
I like D2 because it holds a good edge and is super rugged it’s a good choice for a bushcraft knife. It’s drawback is that it’s difficult to sharpen
I carry d2. In my experience, you don't really need to sharpen it often. Just strop it to revive the edge.
As far as a mid-grade steel goes I think boker Plus does a really good heat treatment job on their vg-10 and as far as in 690 goes I only have a couple of knives that use that steel and those are the real steel Luna boost with the titanium frame lock and fat carbon, the thing is the ground so thin that they just slice so damn well and it's a joy too use. To put it in context you can grab that short little blade which is under 3 in and actually flex that blade.
Boker plus is the 2nd worst ht in the industry next to lionsteel. Where have you been?
I’ve been pleasantly surprised with my para 3 in maxamet. The edge retention is ridiculous.
My top 3 steels in a pocket knife in no particular order, cts-xhp, k390, magnacut
Yes brother k390 is very impressive and patina is beautiful! Wanna get that rex45 manix next From GP! Thanks brother
I dont really like 154CM, because I like tough steels. I just cant understand why more makers dont use CPM 154. Its almost twice as tough as 154CM. Kershaw has been using it for years on their Launch series knives that arent really budget, but very affordable. Why wont more people use it?
Huh? Toughness is one of 154cm selling points. It's about as tough as s30v. That ain't me, that's larin of knife steel nerds assessment. As for why they don't go with cpm, cost and availability. I've several knives in 154 and I beat the tar out of em, drop em, throw em, pry with em. Did you shoot it or stand on it?
ZDP!!! ...next episode, let's investigate the japanese steels... SLD Magic and DC33.3.3.something
For me s90v, the enigma of a softer, simplistic composition stainless steel excelling in edge retention even beyond k390, 10V and its predecessor s110v.
S90v is great but it’s nowhere near k390 in edge retention….
@@optimuscrime608 u never saw larrin Thomas's edge retention chartt? Jared displayed it in this video. First locate k390 then look above it towards the left. There you will find s90v sitting on high in glory.
@@jimmycricket7946 That’s k390 at 61-62 hrc😂 That chart is very accurate given the low HRC. Spydercos k390 is a completely different story
@@optimuscrime608 I own spyderco s90v and their saki city k390. The k390 has alote of better qualities then the s90v but it doesn't outperform the s90v's edge retention, atleast not in my experience. Spyderco's k390 was however definitely better then my kizer and benchmade s90v, but not up against spydercos. Also how do you know the k390's HRC in Larrins chart? Where does it state that in his work? Usually if there's discrepancies between the edge retention performance based on various HT factors he'll draw a line from one point to another like he did with the 10V, s30v and magnacut.
@@optimuscrime608You're overestimating the abrasion resistance gain from hardness. The abrasion resistance is primarily determined by carbide volume and type in high end steels, not pure hrc. A higher hrc will boost the abrasion resistance, but it's a marginal gain.
The bigger difference in the 2 steels (performance wise) is edge stability. Spyderco k390 from seki is supposed to be ~65 hrc. K390 is also significantly tougher than s90v. Both of these facts mean that k390 is capable of taking a more acute edge. That change in geometry can put the blade performance of k390 over s90v.
Your selection of K390 as your favorite surprised me. But I very much like mine.