Thanks for the review Peter. Very well-curated and has some incredible shots in there. Some interesting points from your side. The pricing discussion seems a bit out of context. Looking at the Swiss micro-rotor market the Supersede is in a league of its own when it comes to efficiency, function and price. Often many compare micro-rotors to conventional automatics, however, the challenges in creating these movements put them in a different price bracket entirely. From our research, we see a centre three hand micrco-rotor options from other Swiss brands starting at around 7,500 Swiss francs. The pricing only goes up from there. Yes it's priced more than a conventional automatic, but that is expected due to the complexity involved with micro-rotor movement developments. Again a solid review and thanks for sharing Supersede with your community.
@@secretsanta9046 there are no swiss made micro rotor movement in this price range. 600usd I'm guessing you've got a Baltic maybe ? That's a chinese movement...you can't be serious comparing k2 to a HongZhou micro rotor movement. K2 is a 98% Swiss design and made 2% German silicon escapement tech, COSC certified, screw adjusted balance wheel, with a KIF shock absorb system. if you know anything about horology you'll understand how much cost it's gonna take to meet the above spec. let along the finishing and polishing of these two aren't even in the same league...Come on
I own this watch with the white dial and the PT950 rotor. I was lucky enough to get in on the super early bird price of $4500. The watch is genuinely FANTASTIC!! The finishing is truly amazing. The clasp is engineered well. Very thin and comfortable to wear. I would highly recommend it.
You people call $4500 $3500 lucky super specials, you lads are one of the luckiest individuals in this world, spending that kind of money on a watch is no joke, thats a whole years salary for some people, consider yourselves lucky!!
I will be honest. I been looking for best only one watch, and there are none. But Supersede is as close as you can get to it. It got it all. Period. This hour hand not moving backwards is small minus that just gives you more time to interact with this masterpiece. I have 6.5 in wrist, and it hugs it like no other watch. My omega aqua terra is similar fit, but13.6mm tall, way heavier, and butterfly clasp(after workouts too tight). Price plus minus the same. Watchmaker I use services of checked it out with magnifier and said:”Like Patek.” Congratulations Horage
The question is can you get another GMT micro rotor watch rated at 200m? The only watch I can think comes close is the Slim d'Hermès GMT. The cheapest version of that watch I could find was the Hodinkee version that sold for $14,700 dollars and was gone in minutes on the hodinkee site. I like the quirks of the watch and as I got in on the pre-order it was as cheap as something like this was going to get. There are other GMT watches (not micro-rotors) from JLC and Cartier but they start at 9,000 dollars. Of course there are cheaper, more basic GMT models but if you compare feature for feature, this is a great watch for the price.
Thank you 🙏. Someone doing realistic fair comparison. It would be great if the “experts” took the same time as yourself to make a fair market comparison.
I was fortunate to visit Horage at their new location to pickup my Tourbillon 1. The story and place is amazing, people were very welcoming and I met them all. The company is working hard and you can see the effort from their side to accomplish something magnificent, something beyond just selling watches as big brands. I think the pricing is very fair comparing to other brands especially with pre ordering and I wish there were more companies like this. Everything depends on the person wearing the watch, in my opinion Horage is doing amazing watches hence I bought Tourbillon 1 and Supersede. I value more the personal communication and dedication of a smaller company than those big brands who don't care about you. Hence my collection now consists of Tissot, Omega Spectre, Toubillon 1, Rolex Hulk, Supersede. Can't wait to receive my Supersede! Cheers!
I think you’ve under-rated the watch, particularly given what seems like an amazing movement that allows an impressively thin watch. I’d be keen to hear more about the movement, including more about the quality of finishing and how it performed on the wrist.
The winding efficiency is as good as you can get from an automatic movement. During the month I tested it, I have never needed to hand wind it even I usually rotate it with one or two watches in a day. It always runs between +2 to +3 seconds/day regardless the power status or static/active.
@@chia-mingyang5804 Great point and this can only be appreciated on wrist. It's a bold claim, but the K2 micro-rotor is the most efficient Swiss micro-rotor that has been produced.
Thanks You for reviewing this watch. I would not have known about it otherwise. Now, when my rich uncle gets out of the poor farm I will consider purchase! It's a really nice piece!
@@kevinhuber8723 maaate, nothing wrong with Plymouths. In fact Id rather be seen driving in a Plymouth Roadrunner any day of the week than a Ferrari...love it 🔥🔥
Great review and videography of the supersede Peter! I love this watch. I really back the openess and insight of the guys at Horage. Amazing package overall. I would love to have this watch
The Citizen Nighthawk (BJ7000-52E) does a similar thing, you can only move the local hand forward, which is fine when you move east, but when you move west you end up having to move the date some 27-30 days forward. A 'regular' traveler's GMT is definitely move convenient in that respect.
Thanks for the detailed review, with the demonstrating of the GMT function. I think you saved me several thousand dollars. Traveling west is reality too and not at all convientnet with this design. Having to fully reset the watch by moving the away hand forward then run the date through again (possibly and entire month) is rather astonishing.
First came across this brand pre Christmas when a local AD became a stockist . Was really impressed by the quality so much so that I was gong to buy one, returned a few weeks later and to my astonishment prices had risen by around 30 percent so it was no chance not encouraging such hikes ..They are impressive , personally find the colour of blue on this very dull and uninspiring but this is subjective.. one thing I would change is the logo think it’s awful and reminds me of the 1980s .
This is a recent price hike? Seems out of place even with the high inflation and that while they're still building their reputation. Which models did you admire at the AD?
@@benjaminvis Thanks for asking and I will give a little back story. There are no price changes in relation to inflation. We are transparent on our pricing. We have run four pre-order rounds (VIP Bird 4,500, Early Bird 4,900, Sleepy Bird 5,500, Dreamy Bird 5,900) with the pricing increasing each round before arriving at the final retail price of 6,500 Swiss francs. The VIP Bird, for example, was based on animations and we were still working out some details of the watch as well as movement development so to reward those early supporters we had lower prices as there were still some unknowns. The final price of 6,500 was communicated from the start.
@@benjaminvis they are tiered pre orders. So it started at like $4500 or something low then every 12-18 months there was another pre order window where development increased etc. And price started to move closer to the final MSRP which was stated at the beginning. It's not like a Rolex doing it randomly for inflation or an increase just because it's September (looking at you Sinn)
Definitely very interesting. It's not for me, but I could understand if someone had the need for it. I do wish more watch companies offered the customizations that this one does.
This surely is an insane piece of high horology! Being made of 904L, broad polished center links certainly would be the wrong choice for me, so it's good they are giving the option to go for fully brushed. This would suit the watch even better imo. By the way upgrading a gold plated tungsten micro rotor to platinum for another 1,200 Swiss Francs is the wrong kind of insanity for me! 😉
Maybe it winds up more quickly due to the weight increase? Platinum being more dense even than gold. Maybe they should bring out an iridium rotor for ultimate bragging rights?
@@jacc88888 Good question. There is a slight advantage to platinum when it comes to the breaking angle. This is the angle that the watch must be at to initiate rotor swing. Both materials are optimized very well for the movement. Solid platinum is naturally more costly both in material and production and therefore we provide the two options for varying budgets.
I like the GMT function. The one thing that puts me off traveller GMTs is the lack of a quick set date which I feel would be a real pain in a watch rotation. It looks like a real quality watch but for that price I’d want a more interesting dial, these colour ways seem a little bland to me. Don’t like integrated bracelets either. Thanks for brining something new though.👍
It's a very, very nice watch with promising specs, good materials, well thought out design and overall nice looking. And the people behind it seem to know what what they are doing. But then...there is the price. And from a brand with limited history/heritage and to be fair; unknown reliability and some uncertainty on how long they will be around. People are going to see this watch, then look at the brand and ultimately the price....and then they will think....I can get a brand new Omega Seamaster or maybe something from Zenith, Breitling or Grand Seiko for that kind of money, or around that kind of money. That will be the true test of the success of this watch and the brand. All things said and done, it might still be quite successful and it might establish Horage as a new true rival in that segment of the market. :)
I got in on the third pre-order round on this watch. Specifically I got the atoll blue that you showcased here; I am really looking forward to getting my hands on this thing this month when it ships. In my opinion, even without having held this watch it just checks so many of the boxes for an integrated watch and the price point is really a bargain compared to any other GMT integrated bracelet watches that are out there. I own a VC overseas dual timer and it's a great watch but I always worry about wearing it because of its value (I still wear it anyhow, but I'm always aware that it's on my wrist). This on the other hand while still mildly expensive, is something that can be worn a bit more casually.
Really interesting review Peter, as always pros/cons are on point. Great demo of the GMT ‘issue’, there is great value in this watch for a travelling enthusiast, the buy price is probably accurate for Swiss feature position, but resale may loose out. If Ciga built this, what would you pay? It’s fascinating that the product is a culmination of all these incredible & personalised features, yet the visual presentation of the dial / bezel insert colours seems muted & graphically unbalanced on bracelet, and worse on the high contrast FKM strap. The movement side is beautiful, and is of more interest visually than the dial. If they can unify the dial presentation with the movement colour/decoration, it will be a far more appealing watch and reflect the price point. As one contributor has described, the ‘Horage’ name resembles a stage show or restaurant name spelt in lightbulbs, and needs further consideration. After all this reflection, as it stands I might buy this watch for the amalgamation of features at up to A$1000… if it was a unified design and travellers GMT as you describe, then the price should reflect maybe Grand Seiko.
Appears to be an amazing watch but priced not only as higher luxury but also high horology. Plus when you add a customization or two you move into the 10 K realm.
In comparison to other Swiss chronometer-certified micro-rotors its price can't be beaten. The final base model price is 6,500 and with a platinum rotor it's 7,700.
To be honest this travel time function is useless in this form of not able to move backwards. For those of us living in Asia time zone every where we travel needs to move time back and not forward. Also by moving the local time past or back from midnight does the date also change corresponding to the local time, I'm guessing not. The argument of the date following home time also useless as I want to know the date of local area not where I came from. Other travel times can move forward and backward with the date and day/night indicator following suit. examples are all Patek travel times pilot 5524G, nautilus 5990, aquanaut 5146.... yes I know, price difference and the ability of getting the PP is another issue all together but just saying, not being able to move travel time backwards is a deal breaker, or else I would have purchased already. Great review btw and => followed and subscribed!
The date changes when the you move the local time forward after 12 midnight. The problem is as you mentioned, you cant go backwards. So if you are constantly going back and forth as in Asia time zones..you're right its a no goer. PS thanks for the sub 👍
I know the brand (and this watch), offer really great watches and unique features, the quality is there for sure. What's left? Like them, right? Well, i try, but just can't. Something "too toolish" and sterile is keeping me away. Thanks for the review Peter, hope all is well down under mate, cheers.
A lesser known brand perhaps, but, definitely not new to the scene. I believe I heard of Horage back in early days of another RUclipsr, The Watch Chronicler (aka Armand the Watch Guy).. which is at least 4-5 years ago. Too bad he doesn't make watch videos anymore. He did a really great job at them. Anyways, it is pricey. But, considering everything but into and the overall quality, I think it is within reason if you want something different than the mainstream offerings at similar price range.
An excellent review, as always Pete. Your outstanding photography highlights this interesting watch beautifully. I think it is a striking piece and, with that unique movement, it is worthy of your praises. Nonetheless, there are two things that I find puzzling: the lack of backward movement on the jump-hour, as well as not featuring a 24 hour bezel. When I used to travel extensively, those two features were the mainstay of my ability to keep track of where I was in the world. I understand that times have changed and that cell phones now offer that ability in many different, useful configurations; but it’s GMT functionality seems overly clumsy. Perhaps this watch is intended to function more as an Office GMT? Having said that, this is certainly a unique watch that is sure to garner much interest.
A lot to like about this one..I don’t think the price is unfair for what you get but they don’t have the brand cache..I can see why a lot of people wouldn’t pay it
It would be cool if omega or a brand with more Popularity would make something like this and could sell it for under 7k. I'd buy one for sure. But I also buy from independents because I think they do what some can't do or won't
That date issue is a bummer. I'd rather drop the quickset date and allow the date to be changed by rotating the hour hand like Rolex and Omega's that have the independent hour hand. And there seems to be too much going on on the dial (power reserve, 12/24 hour, etc.). But I like the product in general. Hope to see them develop this line more in the future.
Thanks for the review, they covered a lot of stuff I would not have otherwise known. I had been considering it, now I am not. For the price, I just don't quite dig it enough
Great video as always. I will never understand how these unknown brands price these watches so astronomically high. You’d have to literally have zero clue to pay $7000 for this watch. You can get an Omega world timer for $9200, or a Grand Seiko high beat GMT for $6800 - just as a few examples. This watch should be at most $4000-4500. I am genuinely curious who would actually pay their price. Just absolutely baffling.
I have tested this watch for one month. It performed excellently and definitely worth the price. 4K for this kind of spec and details? Not realistic in my opinion.
Great to see a luxury micro brand although outside of my own budget. Very classy looking watch. The GMT hands are ingenious and am wondering why microrotors aren’t utilised more in automatic watches (maybe they require more servicing?)but certainly more practical than standard rotors due to reducing the case thickness.
There is a reason there are so few well-made micro-rotors on the market. It takes great engineering to achieve good rewinding efficiency and long-term reliability. The smaller the rotor the more complicated things become and thus the reason you see so few of them on the market.
Beautiful! Though what I'm not on board with is the fascination with in-house especially in smaller watchmakers, raising costs and making servicing more complicated than it would be with a standard-ish movement.
In-house movements from independent watchmakers are usually bought by people for whom money is no object. They'll either send the watch in to have it serviced at any cost of they have an established relationship with a capable watchmaker.
@@bboooobbyy For sure, and I'm grateful they exist because they foster innovation where some established brands sit on past glory and play it safe introducing only new colours. I'm just commenting on the general fascination with inhouse, I'm more captured by efforts from "weirdos" like Chinese brand CIGA that with a "crappy" movement, probably manufactured by Seagull, gets GPHGs and Red Dot awards, or the several microbrands based in Singapore that have some very charming designs like Horizon (I just backed their Pilgrim), Feynman, Gruppo Gamma, RZE and many more using movements from Myota, Seiko, ETA and Sellita.
The 12-hour GMT with the 24-hour indicator is clever, but it's shame about how that messes with the date-setting. Good to see an independent brand doing something legitimately unique but there are still some kinks to be worked out.
Nice watch ! For those features the price is OK I guess. What I don't like is the date window so close to the edge , difficult hand setting procedure and the bezel shouldn't be a divers bezel. GMT insert would look way better ! Now the movement is totally awesome in build quality and looks . But as already mentioned that setting of the hour hand in regards to the slave hand underneath and the date setting is way to complicated . To much gimmick ! I have the Longness Conquest VHP GMT amd the operating of the GMT function is so intuitive efficient that it's a joy to change the time ! Great review though.
I liked the review. The watch is a quirky one, not too expensive i.m.o. but my focus is the design and looks of a watch - the dial on this one is a bit boring and ‚not balanced‘ as you put it out. The GMT function is exceptional.
Seeing this raises a pressing questionI hope you can engage with a little @PeterKotsa. When does something become high horology? Does that sit with quality of finish? In house movement? Number of complications? Refined functionality? Or can it only become high horology with all of this present? I'm curious, because on that one hand side Horage competes with (other) microbrands and on the other it competes with more entry level established Swiss brands with inhouse movements and history. I see a lot of people really criticising the price, but if Horage in general is aiming for high horology in all their products and we see it like that, then it is worth mentioning their in-house calibers and very interesting Horage watches can be had quite a bit cheaper than this model too, e.g. the mature and distinct Omnium 2 and my favourite the Autark Jura are available for half or less than half the cost of this and in the case of the Autark a somewhat similar aesthetic at that. I am stoked you got and Horage on you channel, they seem to get so little attention somehow, but slightly disappointed it's not the Autark Jura! I'm so curious to good footage and user opinions in that watch... Anyhow, as for this, it would seem that their modular philosophy to caliber building is now also applied to customisability. I'm always a little ambivalent about customisability, but from what you've shown despite the number of options, the options are actually quite tightly coordinated, which is smart. Is this price including all/most options? In that case it's perhaps already more justified. As per usual, I like the polished centre links. As an aesthetic it totally works. Yes, it's a blinged up tool, and those faceted double knurls work with the polished centre links. Is the steel they use hardened at all? I think they claim to use a hard or hardened titanium on the Autark line. I quite like this GMT. I understand the particularities of operating it and for me, when travelling in the past I haven't even always changed the time on my watch, so it remains an undeniably useful complication I am just not sure I have sufficient arguments for. So I love the fact that the GMT hand can stay hidden and would probably if needed get used to the setting the time quirks. It's great that with all these complications the watch stays thin and I think the movement is also aesthetically impressive. It's probably not the Horage for me, but I can still fully appreciate it. Finally, mildly surprised you did not get the recent Lensman in on your channel instead. Is that too gimmicky for you?
May also be worth highlighting that Horage have always said that their modular inhouse movements have the explicit goal to be marketed to other brands just lie other major Swiss movements and their clones. This is interesting, but I have not ever seen evidence of this working. This is the second iteration, I think, of their main movement, perhaps the key difference being the microrotor. Not sure how the tourbillion (I think) of the Lensman fits in between these movements. At any rate, it seems the brands stays very under the radar but has a growing and very distinctive portfolio that deserves fans and shouting about, and is not short in big ambitions that seem to sit at odds with flying under the radar. For now, it seems, they have to recuperate the investment in highly accomplished and flexible movements with their own models, is my impression.
A lot of food for thought there Benjamin and very good thought provoking food thats for sure. For me this was a taste into the brands quality, style and finalised product. After a few weeks with the watch I must say it was the movement more than anything that caught my attention and kept me interested in the watch as a whole. I personally do not have a need for a GMT myself, but getting into this unique way of different time zones was also quite intriguing. As for the Autark, the Hv really catches my attention, both on a visual perspective as well as the K1 movement, its strength as a case and design...I think overall an interesting look and package So what makes a High Horology watch?..well, possibly hand finishing adding that personal touch and of course a finalised product with attention to detail and exquisite refinement. A thin case is also a good component and overall wearing experience. In my eyes, this All Terrain GMT had quite a few decent features aimed at that market. Nonetheless, as I said this was just a taste into the company for now and as far as fit, finish and refinement it did not disappoint. The main let down was potentially the price...pretty steep when compared to run of the mill GMT's but affordable when compared to high horology, thats for sure cheers brother
Will there be more upcoming releases of this GMT? I have signed up for notification. Please let me know. Beautiful watch. Cant believe ot'd swiss made😊
This watch is one the best gada watches. For me it is the best one except its price and asymmetry of the dial. With the in house movement, 72 hour power reserve, 200 m water resistance, above average lume, 914 L stainless steel case with functional micro adjustment system and 39,5 mm case size the watch is unbeatable. On paper, it is a better and more compact watch than omeaga seamaster aquaterra and rolex oyster perpetual. The latter ones probably have better case finishing. But I don't care about it. The main difference between these watches is history and the newness of the K1/K2 movements. A serious amount of time is needed to confirm these movements' consistency, robustness and reliability. I know it's a gmt watch, but unlike the vast majority of watch enthusiasts, gmt is an unnecessary function for me. I also hate the date application at 3 o'clock position. No date or date at 6 o'clock position would be better but I can live with the current one. But I can't bear day/night indicator's assymetry. It ruins everything. If it is a no date(or date at 6 o'clock)/gmt/day night indicator and 5000 dollar watch, I would definately push my limits to puchase one. But Horage is a small company so it is not quite possible to reduce the prices such as longines, (perhaps) tudor etc.
More features are just meeh,most of watch fans hate cluttered dial and chronographs.Ali express Merkur watch has the same features for 200$.Watch is ok but for that money you can buy Snowflake and have excellent resale value.They should started with same design,less complication and less make up on the caliber for a price of 3k max,that way they would attract more buyers and attention because case and design is very attractive!!
Looks nice but a non gmt version would be more user friendly for an idiot like me. Anyway I’m not paying 10k for a micro brand watch. I’m not that big an idiot 😂
Movement looks cool. I don’t need a GMT as I can count! Price is crazy high. Anything over $5k and I think of the Seiko Snowflake and it’s other versions with extremely cool dials and unbelievable accuracy!
I have been following Horage for some time, and this is by far their absolute best offering in case design, bracelet, and movement. Still, I am NOT a customer at this point because of their stupid pre-order early bird pricing structure. I understand micro-brands doing this kind of silliness when they need to raise money, but it was downright embarrassing for a brand like Horage, with an amazing new movement, to stoop to these kinds of games. I want the best deal that I can get, and it really bugs me to know that's not happening because I was a couple weeks late to find out about the pre-order. Screw 'em... I'll get an even better deal picking up one of these watches pre-owned for 50% of the retail price! 😀
Happy to hear you like Supersede. What is so silly about our pricing? Yes, like a micro-brand we rely on the community to help us achieve our project goals because we make watches for customers. We are not embarrassed by this because it's a model that helps us achieve a solid watch at very good value for our customers. In addition, it's more sustainable as we produce on demand rather than on projection. Producing on sales projections can and usually does lead to overproduction and results in the embarrassing position of a brand having to liquidate old stock in the secondary market. Even at 6,500 CHF we have very small margins to work with, but we work direct rather than through distributors to keep costs in check. Our projects are offered with many unknowns so we take people along for the development journey. We understand folks would like to order and if they order early prior to there even being a finalized production model we like to reward them for that. The downside to this is someone finding out about a project later on and having missed out on the first or second rounds, but on the flip side, we will continue to keep making watches and new projects for enthusiasts to be a part of.
@@HORAGE as a conscious consumer in a busy market place of hugh value goods that should last a lifetime I personally do not like the pressure that comes with pre-order discounts or Kickstarter constructions. The latter I do understand as a funding mechanism when a new venture is starting out. It loses some significance later on in the journey. I also understand, perhaps the idea of a limited run at an inscription price, though I do find it is essential that the quality of the product can be appreciated in full glory before deciding, so there is evidence rather than promise. The difficulty with pre-order discounts is that it is likely to serve those with the deepest pockets, who can afford to accumulate and not care too much. I do feel that one is penalised sometimes for needing to save up or wanting to wait for a review or if in a few months a new design is still what you keep coming back to and therefore likely truly worth the significant purchase. I do understand the usefulness of incentivising early backers and to get a sense of the number you need to produce. That makes good sense, but as a consumer needing to be careful and selective paying say two full month's salary on a single purchase, possibly more, it feels bad to be penalised for making a very conscious purchase decision and making sure I really love the watch and thus intending to hold onto it. Judging by the very few Horage watches on the secondary market, I think generally you make watches that are loved, which is a great endorsement. So, no, nothing silly about the practices, but frustrating to know products might be had for a more affordable price, but only if you have lots of disposable resources to spend quickly. For me the Autark Jura is a watch I keep coming back to. So I'm hoping maybe one day. Not having seen any reviews, owner reports, or live footage doesn't help. That's important too, to be sure, when deciding to potentially spend a lot or start saving up. And ultimately, doesn't every purchase incentive help your business? Getting truly enthusiastic owners showing off their watch in their forums and communities? (Hope nobe of my words offend. I wish you well! You've been doing great and I hope to see your movements more widely adopted. I also commend the consistency and distinctiveness of your styling. Keep it up!)
This watch just looks off. The 24hr dial is to prominent. While the power reserve is done well they are useless clutter for an automatic movement. The logo is terrible. On the fly clasps can be nice but they can often be to large. This clasp definitely seems to big. It overpowers the bracelet. Love the look of the movement, case is nice.
@@Slimothy Add in engineering and cost of production. Many are not used to brands actually doing those things these days as so many outsource or rely on OEM off-the-shelf movements and designs. Draw a comparison to Swiss chronometer-certified micro-rotors with a similar function, materials, demand, brand notoriety and overall x-factor and this watch is in a league of its own for best value Swiss micro-rotor sports GMT. As for notoriety, we have a very technical and well-educated customer seeking innovation. Typically they have already had a lot of experience with well-known brands and are looking for those doing things differently so for them, less notoriety is better in many regards. Our transparency and drive to take on new engineering projects is the "X-Factor".
@@HORAGE That sounds about right. The average consumer is likely not your target and that's fine. Even a seasoned watch collector. But something that niche watchmakers sometimes fail to see (and really any startup business) is the cost-to-value ratio in the minds of the actual consumers/buyers. For example I have many luxury watches that are far more expensive than a Horage, but for me there are certain boxes a watch has to tick for it to interest me, and price is one of them. I really like the look of your watch mentioned in this video -- the price is just not justified to me as a buyer -- as well as many other commenters. I understand there are production costs and such that a small company must bear, but again, the consumers just don't care. For lack of a better way of putting it, that's "your problem". It's the company's responsibility to figure out how to get the costs down to make a reasonable profit margin to stay afloat. I have multiple online businesses and have had to do this myself -- the customer does not care how much work I put into the product or how much the raw material costs. They want an affordable (within means) product that fits their fancy. And that is totally fine. This is not an Apples to Apples comparison, but to illustrate a point, for me, I would never pick your watch over an Omega Seamaster for example, which is a few Ks less than yours though pricing on your site is a bit confusing, perhaps since it's not in USD. This is not because I hate your watch, but the value to me just isn't there. Perhaps to a niche-collector that might be something they're willing to pay but for me it's just not there. I do see a version on your site that is more in the 3-4k realm but just at a glance I can't tell which version that is, since when I click on your site to begin with it's showing a 7K USD price after conversion.
@@Slimothy We have been making watches since 2008 so we are well beyond the startup phase. Just because someone only learns of us now does not make us a startup or niche, it means they are likely less aware of just how many great watchmakers there are. Our pricing is in Swss francs because we are a Swiss company. Please do an accurate cost comparison because the calculation you are using does not align with reality. We have a very good understanding of cost and there are commentators here that also understand this. They are much more aware of the value at hand from movement, materials and function than you have addressed. Customers do care how much work goes into a timepiece and a brand should expect that customers will demand to know all that goes into these timepieces. There are commodities or products where customers might not care to think about how much work goes into them, but with timepieces, they do care. Watches are by their nature handcrafted and we find as with any watchmaker making mechanical watches that customers, for the most part, are fascinated by the art of watchmaking. Our watches are incredible value for the market segment they are in, they are in most cases the most value-driven watches in each category. From micro-rotors to tourbillons we are one of the most accessible brands in those movement categories. As with automobiles, one should not compare all as equal just because they have an engine and four wheels. If you prefer a more well-known name please don't make the lesser-known brand wrong or assume they haven't done their homework. Buy the Omega, they are our neighbours and they too make nice watches.
Thanks Peter . Not for me , I just won’t spend that much on a micro brand. They should know who is competing in that price range, but it doesn’t appear to be the case.
I have actually seen these in person. The movement works in odd ways, I guess it's down to being modular. The skeleton hand is kind of useless, the subdial has all the home time information already. But I can forgive that. The clasp is phenomenal, maybe the better than the IWC one, but equally the rest of the bracelet is no good at all. It has loose tolerances or at least it feels very flimsy. It also pulled arm hair like a champion. The endlink integration is also questionable looks-wise and it did poke out on my, admittedly rather girly, wrist. A shoddy bracelet, I'd say it felt like that of the Longines spirit (which is barely acceptable at 1/3 of the Horage price), on what seems like an integrated design is something I sure cannot forgive. If the watch had normal lugs I may have bought it...
About the Si balance spring, on their website it says “Horage through advanced material science and engineering aims to be the first independent watchmaker to deliver their very own silicon hairsprings to market when patents expire in November 2022.” But the problem is the patent has been extended due to new invention added to the original patent by Omega and their Spirate adjusting system. We’ll have to see what horage will do will they release this with Si balance spring and await the potential problems with patent or will they just go with Si escapement wheel and fork (as they are ok to have) and forget about Si balance spring.
Hi Peter, Totally off this watch topic ,but did you trade in your silver dial Rolex 116000.Did you trade it in at Watchtime Melbourne several years ago because I may have it,just wondering.
This is not a knock on you but I felt extreme nitpicking on the gmt scheme of this watch again not hating on you sir you're not wrong I just wouldn't mind this.
That’s fine Andre, nothing taken personal I think the nit picking is attributable to my engineering mindset, so sometimes I might be a little harsh That said, the watch is very good, pricey but good nonetheless Thanks for sharing 👍
The dials let this watch down. I do think the price is on the higher end though fair considering the case finishing, movement and complications but that dial - its so flat and boring; a good dial would have made the price much easier to accept. Another concern I have is that its an independent with in house tech in a price range competing with Rolex and the like. That's a tough market to carve out from scratch and what if the brand goes bust? Who services the watch then?
Beautiful watch unique and superbly executed but they will not survive in that price range. I could have two Montas for that price. They’re encroaching on Omega etc.
I bought a new Omega Seamaster PO GMT in Titanium for $5300 last year and a new Tudor Rootbeer S&G GMT for $4900. Horage can’t compare to either those brands. The price should be around $4k-5k for this Horage. Interesting watch but overpriced.
Why did you hack the watch to move the date forward when showing the issue with gmt setting? What happens if you just use the gmt hand and continue past midnight and back to where you want it? Does the date change when you are moving only the gmt hour hand?
It costs more than $7K. You should REALLY love this watch to pay such premium. Moreover, selling would probably be impossible for even half the price. Good luck..
I am thinking the same thing but to get these features from omega, you would need the seamaster GMT or 2 watches from them which would be higher than this single watch 😅
@@robertwilliams1286 That seems quite reasonable. Anywhere between 12-20K would likely be the ballpark zone for most Swiss micro-rotors with a similar function, spec and performance. Of course, some brands would start at 20k and work up from there.
@@HORAGE I'm thinking a lot of brands would begin above 15k and do their best to stay under an eye watering price that would rattle their customer base while balancing the idea of being "aspirational" to own. That sort of marketing. With that being said, for it to be in 904L, have 200m WR (many don't have that from esteemed watch makers on their sports models), cosc on a new movement, and a complications like a dual time would surely not have it survive production at under 9k (just being honest)
I 'like' this watch, but would have given pause if it was just a $1,000.00 watch. I personally don't care what type of steel or horological technology this watch has, its not worth $7,000.00 US. And certainly not in the re-sale market.
Got to be honest and say that I feel you have underplayed the price! Albeit you say the following under the negatives - 'the price', you then say under the positives that it is 'offering a lot of bang for your buck.' A Longines Spirit Zulu is half the price, is COSC certified, true GMT, micro adjustable bracelet and I could go on. You can't say that this brand is giving the big brands a run for their money!!! That's just 1 example of quite few, some of which you have reviewed. Am I missing something as your reviews are normally on point!?!
I think some of the standouts here are the Movement, 904L and overall thinness and footprint of the watch. Thats why I titled it "affordable HIGH horology?""..because of that movement and precious metals used (Gold / Platinum etc) Is it worth it?..well for the person who money might not be an object and they are looking for something a little different...this could be for them. For the vast majority of us though, you're absolutely right, for that price we would be looking at better priced and established branded pieces instead Thanks for sharing Tom 👍
@@PeterKotsa Thank you Peter. As always, you clearly show your happiness to interact, elaborate and answer queries raised and ultimately contribute to our understanding and enthusiasm for watches. Much appreciated.
its a terribly bland dial and the power reserve day night indicator and date window seem like they where thrown on after they dont match at all. maybe some more vibrant or nicer dials would make this gr8 as the movement is beautiful and the strap is great its just a shame the actual watch doesnt look interesting or coherent not sure its worth more then a GS, zennith, omega, jlc etc etc
I will have to disagree with you... as nice as the watch looks and as cool as it is that they are trying to do it as an independent brand with their own movement... they price range is way off.. we are in the same range as Tudor / Omega / Grand Seiko... why would i buy this? what are they bringing to the table that all those 100+ year old brands do not?
I can't see paying over $1000 for a microbrand like this. Christopher Ward have nice c60s. Even Monta which is way too much, imo, is only about $2000. Insane to try to charge $7000. You should have LED the review with this, since it is such a big factor.
Its too fussy and busy for me, also not really a fan of the 1970's integrated design or the blingy nature. Looks great build quality and the customisation is cool. Overall a well done watch ans nice clasp. Way too much for me to even consider plus not my taste stylewise.
Thanks for the review Peter. Very well-curated and has some incredible shots in there. Some interesting points from your side. The pricing discussion seems a bit out of context. Looking at the Swiss micro-rotor market the Supersede is in a league of its own when it comes to efficiency, function and price. Often many compare micro-rotors to conventional automatics, however, the challenges in creating these movements put them in a different price bracket entirely. From our research, we see a centre three hand micrco-rotor options from other Swiss brands starting at around 7,500 Swiss francs. The pricing only goes up from there. Yes it's priced more than a conventional automatic, but that is expected due to the complexity involved with micro-rotor movement developments. Again a solid review and thanks for sharing Supersede with your community.
Yema recently offered an in house micro rotor on Kickstarter for €1800. I know it's not a GMT, but shows what the competition can do.
@@fullymechanical9055 Great to see them doing new things. Despite sharing the name micro-rotor not all movements are created equal.
I bought a FANTASTIC micro rotor watch for $600usd
I would love to hear the list of brands in your comparison. I’m sure I’ve heard of most of them.
@@secretsanta9046 there are no swiss made micro rotor movement in this price range. 600usd I'm guessing you've got a Baltic maybe ? That's a chinese movement...you can't be serious comparing k2 to a HongZhou micro rotor movement. K2 is a 98% Swiss design and made 2% German silicon escapement tech, COSC certified, screw adjusted balance wheel, with a KIF shock absorb system. if you know anything about horology you'll understand how much cost it's gonna take to meet the above spec. let along the finishing and polishing of these two aren't even in the same league...Come on
I own this watch with the white dial and the PT950 rotor. I was lucky enough to get in on the super early bird price of $4500. The watch is genuinely FANTASTIC!! The finishing is truly amazing. The clasp is engineered well. Very thin and comfortable to wear. I would highly recommend it.
Thanks so much for the support! Very happy to hear you are enjoying Supersede!
Same here. There is no perfect watch for enthusiasts. But as close as it can get for the price
Well the price is now at a “late bird” special of $3500
You people call $4500 $3500 lucky super specials, you lads are one of the luckiest individuals in this world, spending that kind of money on a watch is no joke, thats a whole years salary for some people, consider yourselves lucky!!
@@secretsanta9046 where is this 3500 special?
This really is the full package GMT watch. The micro-rotor movement is simply stunning. The only problem, I missed the pre-order...
Thanks so much! We are always making new things and hopefully an upcoming release ticks the boxes for you.
I will be honest. I been looking for best only one watch, and there are none. But Supersede is as close as you can get to it. It got it all. Period. This hour hand not moving backwards is small minus that just gives you more time to interact with this masterpiece. I have 6.5 in wrist, and it hugs it like no other watch. My omega aqua terra is similar fit, but13.6mm tall, way heavier, and butterfly clasp(after workouts too tight). Price plus minus the same. Watchmaker I use services of checked it out with magnifier and said:”Like Patek.”
Congratulations Horage
Wow! That is wonderful to hear. Watchmakers understand what is under the hood and the value at hand with Supersede. Thanks for sharing 👍.
The question is can you get another GMT micro rotor watch rated at 200m? The only watch I can think comes close is the Slim d'Hermès GMT. The cheapest version of that watch I could find was the Hodinkee version that sold for $14,700 dollars and was gone in minutes on the hodinkee site. I like the quirks of the watch and as I got in on the pre-order it was as cheap as something like this was going to get. There are other GMT watches (not micro-rotors) from JLC and Cartier but they start at 9,000 dollars. Of course there are cheaper, more basic GMT models but if you compare feature for feature, this is a great watch for the price.
Thank you 🙏. Someone doing realistic fair comparison. It would be great if the “experts” took the same time as yourself to make a fair market comparison.
The movement is an absolute beauty of a caliber. Well done by horage!
I was fortunate to visit Horage at their new location to pickup my Tourbillon 1. The story and place is amazing, people were very welcoming and I met them all.
The company is working hard and you can see the effort from their side to accomplish something magnificent, something beyond just selling watches as big brands.
I think the pricing is very fair comparing to other brands especially with pre ordering and I wish there were more companies like this.
Everything depends on the person wearing the watch, in my opinion Horage is doing amazing watches hence I bought Tourbillon 1 and Supersede.
I value more the personal communication and dedication of a smaller company than those big brands who don't care about you.
Hence my collection now consists of Tissot, Omega Spectre, Toubillon 1, Rolex Hulk, Supersede.
Can't wait to receive my Supersede! Cheers!
I think you’ve under-rated the watch, particularly given what seems like an amazing movement that allows an impressively thin watch. I’d be keen to hear more about the movement, including more about the quality of finishing and how it performed on the wrist.
The winding efficiency is as good as you can get from an automatic movement. During the month I tested it, I have never needed to hand wind it even I usually rotate it with one or two watches in a day. It always runs between +2 to +3 seconds/day regardless the power status or static/active.
@@chia-mingyang5804 Great point and this can only be appreciated on wrist. It's a bold claim, but the K2 micro-rotor is the most efficient Swiss micro-rotor that has been produced.
A really interesting and good looking watch
Thanks You for reviewing this watch. I would not have known about it otherwise. Now, when my rich uncle gets out of the poor farm I will consider purchase! It's a really nice piece!
Hahaha, tell your rich uncle to hurry up and give you the cash so you can enjoy your hobby 😊😂
@@PeterKotsa some guys collect Ferrari's, I collect Plymouths!
@@kevinhuber8723 maaate, nothing wrong with Plymouths. In fact Id rather be seen driving in a Plymouth Roadrunner any day of the week than a Ferrari...love it 🔥🔥
Beautiful watch, I'd definitly go for the brushed option!
It's a lovely choice and as Peter mentioned less finger prints showing in video/photo.
The case reminds me of Zenith Defy Classic, and the movement amazing! Thanks for the vid
The Horage Supersede GMT is by far one of the best GMT ⌚ available.
Excellent video.
Thanks so much!!🙏
Great review and videography of the supersede Peter! I love this watch. I really back the openess and insight of the guys at Horage. Amazing package overall. I would love to have this watch
Thanks for the feedback Michael
cheers
Fabulous watch.. It could be a bit more dressy. If so it would be the perfect one watch collection...
Lovely looking watch front and back.
The Citizen Nighthawk (BJ7000-52E) does a similar thing, you can only move the local hand forward, which is fine when you move east, but when you move west you end up having to move the date some 27-30 days forward. A 'regular' traveler's GMT is definitely move convenient in that respect.
Thanks for the detailed review, with the demonstrating of the GMT function. I think you saved me several thousand dollars. Traveling west is reality too and not at all convientnet with this design. Having to fully reset the watch by moving the away hand forward then run the date through again (possibly and entire month) is rather astonishing.
Beautiful piece, beautiful movement. Excited to see the future for this brand. Out of my budget unfortunately.
For travelers, that watch is usefull. Good features. Looks great. I'm impresed. Hope you get to keep this one too.
Ive already sent it back Brian, cheers mate
First came across this brand pre Christmas when a local AD became a stockist . Was really impressed by the quality so much so that I was gong to buy one, returned a few weeks later and to my astonishment prices had risen by around 30 percent so it was no chance not encouraging such hikes ..They are impressive , personally find the colour of blue on this very dull and uninspiring but this is subjective.. one thing I would change is the logo think it’s awful and reminds me of the 1980s .
This is a recent price hike? Seems out of place even with the high inflation and that while they're still building their reputation. Which models did you admire at the AD?
@@benjaminvis Thanks for asking and I will give a little back story. There are no price changes in relation to inflation. We are transparent on our pricing. We have run four pre-order rounds (VIP Bird 4,500, Early Bird 4,900, Sleepy Bird 5,500, Dreamy Bird 5,900) with the pricing increasing each round before arriving at the final retail price of 6,500 Swiss francs. The VIP Bird, for example, was based on animations and we were still working out some details of the watch as well as movement development so to reward those early supporters we had lower prices as there were still some unknowns. The final price of 6,500 was communicated from the start.
@@benjaminvis they are tiered pre orders. So it started at like $4500 or something low then every 12-18 months there was another pre order window where development increased etc. And price started to move closer to the final MSRP which was stated at the beginning. It's not like a Rolex doing it randomly for inflation or an increase just because it's September (looking at you Sinn)
Definitely very interesting. It's not for me, but I could understand if someone had the need for it. I do wish more watch companies offered the customizations that this one does.
Love this watch design.
This surely is an insane piece of high horology! Being made of 904L, broad polished center links certainly would be the wrong choice for me, so it's good they are giving the option to go for fully brushed. This would suit the watch even better imo. By the way upgrading a gold plated tungsten micro rotor to platinum for another 1,200 Swiss Francs is the wrong kind of insanity for me! 😉
It increases the weight of the rotor by a whole 9%, for 1200 Swiss Francs. You're buying bragging rights ("this watch has a platinum rotor!")
@@ge48421is that added weight better than lead?
It seems that it is. Apologies. Not that familiar with metals and the elements!
Maybe it winds up more quickly due to the weight increase? Platinum being more dense even than gold. Maybe they should bring out an iridium rotor for ultimate bragging rights?
@@jacc88888 Good question. There is a slight advantage to platinum when it comes to the breaking angle. This is the angle that the watch must be at to initiate rotor swing. Both materials are optimized very well for the movement. Solid platinum is naturally more costly both in material and production and therefore we provide the two options for varying budgets.
I like the GMT function. The one thing that puts me off traveller GMTs is the lack of a quick set date which I feel would be a real pain in a watch rotation.
It looks like a real quality watch but for that price I’d want a more interesting dial, these colour ways seem a little bland to me.
Don’t like integrated bracelets either.
Thanks for brining something new though.👍
Thanks for watching and sharing Stuart, cheers mate
Great video, beautiful watch. Thanks Pete. 👍🏼
Thanks for watching Ed, cheers
It's a very, very nice watch with promising specs, good materials, well thought out design and overall nice looking. And the people behind it seem to know what what they are doing. But then...there is the price. And from a brand with limited history/heritage and to be fair; unknown reliability and some uncertainty on how long they will be around. People are going to see this watch, then look at the brand and ultimately the price....and then they will think....I can get a brand new Omega Seamaster or maybe something from Zenith, Breitling or Grand Seiko for that kind of money, or around that kind of money.
That will be the true test of the success of this watch and the brand. All things said and done, it might still be quite successful and it might establish Horage as a new true rival in that segment of the market. :)
Excellent as always Peter. 👍
Cheers Nick
I got in on the third pre-order round on this watch. Specifically I got the atoll blue that you showcased here; I am really looking forward to getting my hands on this thing this month when it ships. In my opinion, even without having held this watch it just checks so many of the boxes for an integrated watch and the price point is really a bargain compared to any other GMT integrated bracelet watches that are out there. I own a VC overseas dual timer and it's a great watch but I always worry about wearing it because of its value (I still wear it anyhow, but I'm always aware that it's on my wrist). This on the other hand while still mildly expensive, is something that can be worn a bit more casually.
Really interesting review Peter, as always pros/cons are on point.
Great demo of the GMT ‘issue’, there is great value in this watch for a travelling enthusiast, the buy price is probably accurate for Swiss feature position, but resale may loose out. If Ciga built this, what would you pay?
It’s fascinating that the product is a culmination of all these incredible & personalised features, yet the visual presentation of the dial / bezel insert colours seems muted & graphically unbalanced on bracelet, and worse on the high contrast FKM strap.
The movement side is beautiful, and is of more interest visually than the dial. If they can unify the dial presentation with the movement colour/decoration, it will be a far more appealing watch and reflect the price point. As one contributor has described, the ‘Horage’ name resembles a stage show or restaurant name spelt in lightbulbs, and needs further consideration.
After all this reflection, as it stands I might buy this watch for the amalgamation of features at up to A$1000… if it was a unified design and travellers GMT as you describe, then the price should reflect maybe Grand Seiko.
Great review Peter! Very valid points 👍🏻
🤩Wow, no doubt an incredible watch, might consider adding one to my collection.
Feel free to reach out to us with any questions.
Appears to be an amazing watch but priced not only as higher luxury but also high horology. Plus when you add a customization or two you move into the 10 K realm.
A ten buck casio is debatably high horology considering the amount of microscopic paths in its chips. That’s some high tech shizzle my nizzle!
Wow. What a beautiful movement
In comparison to other Swiss chronometer-certified micro-rotors its price can't be beaten. The final base model price is 6,500 and with a platinum rotor it's 7,700.
I love Horage. If this ends up in one of the giveaways it will be number 1, 2, and 3 on my list.
Haha..Unfortunately Jason I had to send it back to Horage ☹
@@PeterKotsa 🥲
To be honest this travel time function is useless in this form of not able to move backwards. For those of us living in Asia time zone every where we travel needs to move time back and not forward. Also by moving the local time past or back from midnight does the date also change corresponding to the local time, I'm guessing not. The argument of the date following home time also useless as I want to know the date of local area not where I came from. Other travel times can move forward and backward with the date and day/night indicator following suit. examples are all Patek travel times pilot 5524G, nautilus 5990, aquanaut 5146.... yes I know, price difference and the ability of getting the PP is another issue all together but just saying, not being able to move travel time backwards is a deal breaker, or else I would have purchased already. Great review btw and => followed and subscribed!
The date changes when the you move the local time forward after 12 midnight. The problem is as you mentioned, you cant go backwards. So if you are constantly going back and forth as in Asia time zones..you're right its a no goer.
PS thanks for the sub 👍
I know the brand (and this watch), offer really great watches and unique features, the quality is there for sure. What's left? Like them, right? Well, i try, but just can't. Something "too toolish" and sterile is keeping me away.
Thanks for the review Peter, hope all is well down under mate, cheers.
A lesser known brand perhaps, but, definitely not new to the scene. I believe I heard of Horage back in early days of another RUclipsr, The Watch Chronicler (aka Armand the Watch Guy).. which is at least 4-5 years ago. Too bad he doesn't make watch videos anymore. He did a really great job at them.
Anyways, it is pricey. But, considering everything but into and the overall quality, I think it is within reason if you want something different than the mainstream offerings at similar price range.
That's a beautiful watch, especially the movement! Definitely the mat bracelet...Too pricey for me though!
An excellent review, as always Pete. Your outstanding photography highlights this interesting watch beautifully. I think it is a striking piece and, with that unique movement, it is worthy of your praises.
Nonetheless, there are two things that I find puzzling: the lack of backward movement on the jump-hour, as well as not featuring a 24 hour bezel. When I used to travel extensively, those two features were the mainstay of my ability to keep track of where I was in the world. I understand that times have changed and that cell phones now offer that ability in many different, useful configurations; but it’s GMT functionality seems overly clumsy. Perhaps this watch is intended to function more as an Office GMT?
Having said that, this is certainly a unique watch that is sure to garner much interest.
We could have had the hand jumping both forward and backward, however opted to spec it with a quick date adjust.
@@HORAGE 👍
A lot to like about this one..I don’t think the price is unfair for what you get but they don’t have the brand cache..I can see why a lot of people wouldn’t pay it
It would be cool if omega or a brand with more Popularity would make something like this and could sell it for under 7k. I'd buy one for sure. But I also buy from independents because I think they do what some can't do or won't
Any reason why you’re only showing a video graphic of the micro adjustment? Interesting watch, thanks for introducing it!
No reason, I just neglected to videotape it so I included the graphic (it demonstrates the action perfectly)
Cheers Aaron 👍
That date issue is a bummer. I'd rather drop the quickset date and allow the date to be changed by rotating the hour hand like Rolex and Omega's that have the independent hour hand. And there seems to be too much going on on the dial (power reserve, 12/24 hour, etc.). But I like the product in general. Hope to see them develop this line more in the future.
Thanks for the review, they covered a lot of stuff I would not have otherwise known. I had been considering it, now I am not. For the price, I just don't quite dig it enough
Lovely review. Looks great but the small niggles / negatives makes it a little hard to swallow the asking price. Thanks for sharing Peter
Yeah, so many options at that price point for sure, cheers Dale
@@PeterKotsa with a Swiss in-house micro-rotor?
@@HORAGE correct, none that I know of with a micro rotor at this price point..agreed 👍
Great video as always. I will never understand how these unknown brands price these watches so astronomically high. You’d have to literally have zero clue to pay $7000 for this watch. You can get an Omega world timer for $9200, or a Grand Seiko high beat GMT for $6800 - just as a few examples. This watch should be at most $4000-4500. I am genuinely curious who would actually pay their price. Just absolutely baffling.
I wouldn't say Horage is unknown for the watch world enthusiasts
I have tested this watch for one month. It performed excellently and definitely worth the price. 4K for this kind of spec and details? Not realistic in my opinion.
Agree with you, this is way too expansive for a brand like that.
Call me a watch snob if you want, but I’m not dropping between $7,000 and $10,000 on a watch 99% of the world has never heard of.
@@G17-911 so you buy a watch to show off
It's a beaut, but a weird moment. All the best, Peter. Cheers 🍻!
Cheers David
@@PeterKotsa Sorry- movement!
Спасибо🙏, отличный обзор👍
Я заказал эти часы в прошлом году, жду с нетерпением. После просмотра видео, убедился что сделал правильный выбор👍
Great to see a luxury micro brand although outside of my own budget. Very classy looking watch. The GMT hands are ingenious and am wondering why microrotors aren’t utilised more in automatic watches (maybe they require more servicing?)but certainly more practical than standard rotors due to reducing the case thickness.
There is a reason there are so few well-made micro-rotors on the market. It takes great engineering to achieve good rewinding efficiency and long-term reliability. The smaller the rotor the more complicated things become and thus the reason you see so few of them on the market.
@@HORAGE Thanks for clarifying this! Have been wondering why for several years now. Congratulations on the watch - looks fantastic.
For what my opinion is worth, I think it's awesome what Landon and the guys are doing, real breath of fresh air in the stuffy Swiss industry
@@chrisjones6439 thanks so much! Wonderful to hear this.
Beautiful! Though what I'm not on board with is the fascination with in-house especially in smaller watchmakers, raising costs and making servicing more complicated than it would be with a standard-ish movement.
In-house movements from independent watchmakers are usually bought by people for whom money is no object. They'll either send the watch in to have it serviced at any cost of they have an established relationship with a capable watchmaker.
@@bboooobbyy For sure, and I'm grateful they exist because they foster innovation where some established brands sit on past glory and play it safe introducing only new colours. I'm just commenting on the general fascination with inhouse, I'm more captured by efforts from "weirdos" like Chinese brand CIGA that with a "crappy" movement, probably manufactured by Seagull, gets GPHGs and Red Dot awards, or the several microbrands based in Singapore that have some very charming designs like Horizon (I just backed their Pilgrim), Feynman, Gruppo Gamma, RZE and many more using movements from Myota, Seiko, ETA and Sellita.
@@mestemeyou might like Makina as well
The 12-hour GMT with the 24-hour indicator is clever, but it's shame about how that messes with the date-setting. Good to see an independent brand doing something legitimately unique but there are still some kinks to be worked out.
Nice watch !
For those features the price is OK I guess.
What I don't like is the date window so close to the edge , difficult hand setting procedure and the bezel shouldn't be a divers bezel. GMT insert would look way better ! Now the movement is totally awesome in build quality and looks .
But as already mentioned that setting of the hour hand in regards to the slave hand underneath and the date setting is way to complicated . To much gimmick !
I have the Longness Conquest VHP GMT amd the operating of the GMT function is so intuitive efficient that it's a joy to change the time !
Great review though.
Fantastic review
I liked the review. The watch is a quirky one, not too expensive i.m.o. but my focus is the design and looks of a watch - the dial on this one is a bit boring and ‚not balanced‘ as you put it out. The GMT function is exceptional.
Seeing this raises a pressing questionI hope you can engage with a little @PeterKotsa. When does something become high horology? Does that sit with quality of finish? In house movement? Number of complications? Refined functionality? Or can it only become high horology with all of this present? I'm curious, because on that one hand side Horage competes with (other) microbrands and on the other it competes with more entry level established Swiss brands with inhouse movements and history. I see a lot of people really criticising the price, but if Horage in general is aiming for high horology in all their products and we see it like that, then it is worth mentioning their in-house calibers and very interesting Horage watches can be had quite a bit cheaper than this model too, e.g. the mature and distinct Omnium 2 and my favourite the Autark Jura are available for half or less than half the cost of this and in the case of the Autark a somewhat similar aesthetic at that. I am stoked you got and Horage on you channel, they seem to get so little attention somehow, but slightly disappointed it's not the Autark Jura! I'm so curious to good footage and user opinions in that watch... Anyhow, as for this, it would seem that their modular philosophy to caliber building is now also applied to customisability. I'm always a little ambivalent about customisability, but from what you've shown despite the number of options, the options are actually quite tightly coordinated, which is smart. Is this price including all/most options? In that case it's perhaps already more justified. As per usual, I like the polished centre links. As an aesthetic it totally works. Yes, it's a blinged up tool, and those faceted double knurls work with the polished centre links. Is the steel they use hardened at all? I think they claim to use a hard or hardened titanium on the Autark line. I quite like this GMT. I understand the particularities of operating it and for me, when travelling in the past I haven't even always changed the time on my watch, so it remains an undeniably useful complication I am just not sure I have sufficient arguments for. So I love the fact that the GMT hand can stay hidden and would probably if needed get used to the setting the time quirks. It's great that with all these complications the watch stays thin and I think the movement is also aesthetically impressive. It's probably not the Horage for me, but I can still fully appreciate it. Finally, mildly surprised you did not get the recent Lensman in on your channel instead. Is that too gimmicky for you?
May also be worth highlighting that Horage have always said that their modular inhouse movements have the explicit goal to be marketed to other brands just lie other major Swiss movements and their clones. This is interesting, but I have not ever seen evidence of this working. This is the second iteration, I think, of their main movement, perhaps the key difference being the microrotor. Not sure how the tourbillion (I think) of the Lensman fits in between these movements. At any rate, it seems the brands stays very under the radar but has a growing and very distinctive portfolio that deserves fans and shouting about, and is not short in big ambitions that seem to sit at odds with flying under the radar. For now, it seems, they have to recuperate the investment in highly accomplished and flexible movements with their own models, is my impression.
A lot of food for thought there Benjamin and very good thought provoking food thats for sure.
For me this was a taste into the brands quality, style and finalised product. After a few weeks with the watch I must say it was the movement more than anything that caught my attention and kept me interested in the watch as a whole.
I personally do not have a need for a GMT myself, but getting into this unique way of different time zones was also quite intriguing.
As for the Autark, the Hv really catches my attention, both on a visual perspective as well as the K1 movement, its strength as a case and design...I think overall an interesting look and package
So what makes a High Horology watch?..well, possibly hand finishing adding that personal touch and of course a finalised product with attention to detail and exquisite refinement.
A thin case is also a good component and overall wearing experience.
In my eyes, this All Terrain GMT had quite a few decent features aimed at that market.
Nonetheless, as I said this was just a taste into the company for now and as far as fit, finish and refinement it did not disappoint. The main let down was potentially the price...pretty steep when compared to run of the mill GMT's but affordable when compared to high horology, thats for sure
cheers brother
Will there be more upcoming releases of this GMT? I have signed up for notification. Please let me know. Beautiful watch. Cant believe ot'd swiss made😊
Absolutely love the watch but the price seems a little too high
D on t forget that some countries like india have 1/2 hour time difference, not all countries are hour units away
Correct, thanks for sharing Augustin 👍
NIce watch! great video pete!
Cheers
This watch is one the best gada watches. For me it is the best one except its price and asymmetry of the dial. With the in house movement, 72 hour power reserve, 200 m water resistance, above average lume, 914 L stainless steel case with functional micro adjustment system and 39,5 mm case size the watch is unbeatable. On paper, it is a better and more compact watch than omeaga seamaster aquaterra and rolex oyster perpetual. The latter ones probably have better case finishing. But I don't care about it. The main difference between these watches is history and the newness of the K1/K2 movements. A serious amount of time is needed to confirm these movements' consistency, robustness and reliability. I know it's a gmt watch, but unlike the vast majority of watch enthusiasts, gmt is an unnecessary function for me. I also hate the date application at 3 o'clock position. No date or date at 6 o'clock position would be better but I can live with the current one. But I can't bear day/night indicator's assymetry. It ruins everything. If it is a no date(or date at 6 o'clock)/gmt/day night indicator and 5000 dollar watch, I would definately push my limits to puchase one. But Horage is a small company so it is not quite possible to reduce the prices such as longines, (perhaps) tudor etc.
The GMT setting limitations would be annoying, but not more so than their choice of logo font
yeah, if you have 18cm wrist, all will wear well. For 15.5cm wrist like mine, finding a suitable size watch is always a pain!
Foget GMT's, Peter. Just travel with two watches (or even more) one on home time and one for local time. Worked when I was in the merchant Navy.
Haha, thats excellent advice Paul.
Left wrist for HOME time, wright wrist for LOCAL....love it 👍😊
More features are just meeh,most of watch fans hate cluttered dial and chronographs.Ali express Merkur watch has the same features for 200$.Watch is ok but for that money you can buy Snowflake and have excellent resale value.They should started with same design,less complication and less make up on the caliber for a price of 3k max,that way they would attract more buyers and attention because case and design is very attractive!!
R E M A R K A B L E ! ! ! 💯👍😀
Looks nice but a non gmt version would be more user friendly for an idiot like me. Anyway I’m not paying 10k for a micro brand watch. I’m not that big an idiot 😂
Movement looks cool. I don’t need a GMT as I can count! Price is crazy high. Anything over $5k and I think of the Seiko Snowflake and it’s other versions with extremely cool dials and unbelievable accuracy!
Thanks for the review. Is there a Horage dealer in Melbourne?
Unfortunately there isn't a dealer here
cheers John
Feel free to reach out to us directly we would be happy to answer any questions that you have.
I have been following Horage for some time, and this is by far their absolute best offering in case design, bracelet, and movement. Still, I am NOT a customer at this point because of their stupid pre-order early bird pricing structure. I understand micro-brands doing this kind of silliness when they need to raise money, but it was downright embarrassing for a brand like Horage, with an amazing new movement, to stoop to these kinds of games. I want the best deal that I can get, and it really bugs me to know that's not happening because I was a couple weeks late to find out about the pre-order. Screw 'em... I'll get an even better deal picking up one of these watches pre-owned for 50% of the retail price! 😀
I rarely even see Horage watches come up for sale. A half price Autark Jura and I'd have a really hard time resisting any longer!
Happy to hear you like Supersede. What is so silly about our pricing? Yes, like a micro-brand we rely on the community to help us achieve our project goals because we make watches for customers. We are not embarrassed by this because it's a model that helps us achieve a solid watch at very good value for our customers. In addition, it's more sustainable as we produce on demand rather than on projection. Producing on sales projections can and usually does lead to overproduction and results in the embarrassing position of a brand having to liquidate old stock in the secondary market. Even at 6,500 CHF we have very small margins to work with, but we work direct rather than through distributors to keep costs in check. Our projects are offered with many unknowns so we take people along for the development journey. We understand folks would like to order and if they order early prior to there even being a finalized production model we like to reward them for that. The downside to this is someone finding out about a project later on and having missed out on the first or second rounds, but on the flip side, we will continue to keep making watches and new projects for enthusiasts to be a part of.
@@HORAGE as a conscious consumer in a busy market place of hugh value goods that should last a lifetime I personally do not like the pressure that comes with pre-order discounts or Kickstarter constructions. The latter I do understand as a funding mechanism when a new venture is starting out. It loses some significance later on in the journey. I also understand, perhaps the idea of a limited run at an inscription price, though I do find it is essential that the quality of the product can be appreciated in full glory before deciding, so there is evidence rather than promise. The difficulty with pre-order discounts is that it is likely to serve those with the deepest pockets, who can afford to accumulate and not care too much. I do feel that one is penalised sometimes for needing to save up or wanting to wait for a review or if in a few months a new design is still what you keep coming back to and therefore likely truly worth the significant purchase. I do understand the usefulness of incentivising early backers and to get a sense of the number you need to produce. That makes good sense, but as a consumer needing to be careful and selective paying say two full month's salary on a single purchase, possibly more, it feels bad to be penalised for making a very conscious purchase decision and making sure I really love the watch and thus intending to hold onto it. Judging by the very few Horage watches on the secondary market, I think generally you make watches that are loved, which is a great endorsement. So, no, nothing silly about the practices, but frustrating to know products might be had for a more affordable price, but only if you have lots of disposable resources to spend quickly. For me the Autark Jura is a watch I keep coming back to. So I'm hoping maybe one day. Not having seen any reviews, owner reports, or live footage doesn't help. That's important too, to be sure, when deciding to potentially spend a lot or start saving up. And ultimately, doesn't every purchase incentive help your business? Getting truly enthusiastic owners showing off their watch in their forums and communities? (Hope nobe of my words offend. I wish you well! You've been doing great and I hope to see your movements more widely adopted. I also commend the consistency and distinctiveness of your styling. Keep it up!)
This watch just looks off. The 24hr dial is to prominent. While the power reserve is done well they are useless clutter for an automatic movement. The logo is terrible. On the fly clasps can be nice but they can often be to large. This clasp definitely seems to big. It overpowers the bracelet. Love the look of the movement, case is nice.
Very cool watch, price should be about 2-3k max though. USD.
How did you calculate that pricing?
@@HORAGE Looks, brand, function, demand, materials, notoriety, and overall “x-factor”. Same way I’d judge/price any watch.
@@Slimothy Add in engineering and cost of production. Many are not used to brands actually doing those things these days as so many outsource or rely on OEM off-the-shelf movements and designs. Draw a comparison to Swiss chronometer-certified micro-rotors with a similar function, materials, demand, brand notoriety and overall x-factor and this watch is in a league of its own for best value Swiss micro-rotor sports GMT. As for notoriety, we have a very technical and well-educated customer seeking innovation. Typically they have already had a lot of experience with well-known brands and are looking for those doing things differently so for them, less notoriety is better in many regards. Our transparency and drive to take on new engineering projects is the "X-Factor".
@@HORAGE That sounds about right. The average consumer is likely not your target and that's fine. Even a seasoned watch collector. But something that niche watchmakers sometimes fail to see (and really any startup business) is the cost-to-value ratio in the minds of the actual consumers/buyers. For example I have many luxury watches that are far more expensive than a Horage, but for me there are certain boxes a watch has to tick for it to interest me, and price is one of them. I really like the look of your watch mentioned in this video -- the price is just not justified to me as a buyer -- as well as many other commenters. I understand there are production costs and such that a small company must bear, but again, the consumers just don't care. For lack of a better way of putting it, that's "your problem". It's the company's responsibility to figure out how to get the costs down to make a reasonable profit margin to stay afloat. I have multiple online businesses and have had to do this myself -- the customer does not care how much work I put into the product or how much the raw material costs. They want an affordable (within means) product that fits their fancy. And that is totally fine. This is not an Apples to Apples comparison, but to illustrate a point, for me, I would never pick your watch over an Omega Seamaster for example, which is a few Ks less than yours though pricing on your site is a bit confusing, perhaps since it's not in USD. This is not because I hate your watch, but the value to me just isn't there. Perhaps to a niche-collector that might be something they're willing to pay but for me it's just not there. I do see a version on your site that is more in the 3-4k realm but just at a glance I can't tell which version that is, since when I click on your site to begin with it's showing a 7K USD price after conversion.
@@Slimothy We have been making watches since 2008 so we are well beyond the startup phase. Just because someone only learns of us now does not make us a startup or niche, it means they are likely less aware of just how many great watchmakers there are.
Our pricing is in Swss francs because we are a Swiss company. Please do an accurate cost comparison because the calculation you are using does not align with reality. We have a very good understanding of cost and there are commentators here that also understand this. They are much more aware of the value at hand from movement, materials and function than you have addressed. Customers do care how much work goes into a timepiece and a brand should expect that customers will demand to know all that goes into these timepieces. There are commodities or products where customers might not care to think about how much work goes into them, but with timepieces, they do care. Watches are by their nature handcrafted and we find as with any watchmaker making mechanical watches that customers, for the most part, are fascinated by the art of watchmaking. Our watches are incredible value for the market segment they are in, they are in most cases the most value-driven watches in each category. From micro-rotors to tourbillons we are one of the most accessible brands in those movement categories. As with automobiles, one should not compare all as equal just because they have an engine and four wheels. If you prefer a more well-known name please don't make the lesser-known brand wrong or assume they haven't done their homework. Buy the Omega, they are our neighbours and they too make nice watches.
Really enjoyed this review. Rather interesting proposition, just wish it isn't a stepped bezel. Thanks, Pete
Thanks for watching
Thanks Peter . Not for me , I just won’t spend that much on a micro brand. They should know who is competing in that price range, but it doesn’t appear to be the case.
This is an extraordinary watch. But it is not affordable for me.
Mucho $$$; for a new, unproven brand/mechanism. Lets wait and see how they do......
We have been making watches since 2008 😉.
@@HORAGE Yes, BUT this model: GMT isn't it the first run?.......
@@talega1 You said brand/mechanism. This is our third movement project.
I have actually seen these in person. The movement works in odd ways, I guess it's down to being modular. The skeleton hand is kind of useless, the subdial has all the home time information already. But I can forgive that.
The clasp is phenomenal, maybe the better than the IWC one, but equally the rest of the bracelet is no good at all. It has loose tolerances or at least it feels very flimsy. It also pulled arm hair like a champion. The endlink integration is also questionable looks-wise and it did poke out on my, admittedly rather girly, wrist. A shoddy bracelet, I'd say it felt like that of the Longines spirit (which is barely acceptable at 1/3 of the Horage price), on what seems like an integrated design is something I sure cannot forgive. If the watch had normal lugs I may have bought it...
About the Si balance spring, on their website it says “Horage through advanced material science and engineering aims to be the first independent watchmaker to deliver their very own silicon hairsprings to market when patents expire in November 2022.”
But the problem is the patent has been extended due to new invention added to the original patent by Omega and their Spirate adjusting system. We’ll have to see what horage will do will they release this with Si balance spring and await the potential problems with patent or will they just go with Si escapement wheel and fork (as they are ok to have) and forget about Si balance spring.
The patent hasn't been renewed.
Looks like the movement is use by Yema?
Hi Peter,
Totally off this watch topic ,but did you trade in your silver dial Rolex 116000.Did you trade it in at Watchtime Melbourne several years ago because I may have it,just wondering.
Hi Gavin, yes that must be one, brilliant.
Enjoy it, thats a lovely piece 👍
Thanks Peter love your show😀
This is not a knock on you but I felt extreme nitpicking on the gmt scheme of this watch again not hating on you sir you're not wrong I just wouldn't mind this.
That’s fine Andre, nothing taken personal
I think the nit picking is attributable to my engineering mindset, so sometimes I might be a little harsh
That said, the watch is very good, pricey but good nonetheless
Thanks for sharing 👍
The dials let this watch down. I do think the price is on the higher end though fair considering the case finishing, movement and complications but that dial - its so flat and boring; a good dial would have made the price much easier to accept. Another concern I have is that its an independent with in house tech in a price range competing with Rolex and the like. That's a tough market to carve out from scratch and what if the brand goes bust? Who services the watch then?
Hey I seen a speedmaster 10 years old for $5,000 is it worth it? Is that a good price.
Beautiful watch unique and superbly executed but they will not survive in that price range. I could have two Montas for that price. They’re encroaching on Omega etc.
Our community has really been positive about the pricing when compared to other Swiss micro-rotor offerings.
I bought a new Omega Seamaster PO GMT in Titanium for $5300 last year and a new Tudor Rootbeer S&G GMT for $4900. Horage can’t compare to either those brands. The price should be around $4k-5k for this Horage. Interesting watch but overpriced.
Really?
I thought it compares quite favorable...but I'm also not a brand whore.
Just for clarification: how is this video sponsored? Did Horage let you keep the watch?
No I sent the watch back, they simply contributed a few dollars towards the channel instead
Why did you hack the watch to move the date forward when showing the issue with gmt setting? What happens if you just use the gmt hand and continue past midnight and back to where you want it? Does the date change when you are moving only the gmt hour hand?
Yes, it changes the date forward with the gmt hand
It costs more than $7K. You should REALLY love this watch to pay such premium. Moreover, selling would probably be impossible for even half the price. Good luck..
Wonderful, wonderful watch... but unfortunately priced higher than most Omegas.
I am thinking the same thing but to get these features from omega, you would need the seamaster GMT or 2 watches from them which would be higher than this single watch 😅
Making new movements, especially micro-rotors is a costly endeavour. Would love to see what an Omega micro-rotor would come in at.
@@HORAGE I'm thinking 12-13k
@@robertwilliams1286 That seems quite reasonable. Anywhere between 12-20K would likely be the ballpark zone for most Swiss micro-rotors with a similar function, spec and performance. Of course, some brands would start at 20k and work up from there.
@@HORAGE I'm thinking a lot of brands would begin above 15k and do their best to stay under an eye watering price that would rattle their customer base while balancing the idea of being "aspirational" to own. That sort of marketing.
With that being said, for it to be in 904L, have 200m WR (many don't have that from esteemed watch makers on their sports models), cosc on a new movement, and a complications like a dual time would surely not have it survive production at under 9k (just being honest)
I 'like' this watch, but would have given pause if it was just a $1,000.00 watch. I personally don't care what type of steel or horological technology this watch has, its not worth $7,000.00 US. And certainly not in the re-sale market.
I click in here because I see "affordable"
I check the website
I see 3,250 Francs
That's 10 months of my pay grade
This is a really cool watch, but man $7k for a micro brand?
Got to be honest and say that I feel you have underplayed the price! Albeit you say the following under the negatives - 'the price', you then say under the positives that it is 'offering a lot of bang for your buck.' A Longines Spirit Zulu is half the price, is COSC certified, true GMT, micro adjustable bracelet and I could go on. You can't say that this brand is giving the big brands a run for their money!!! That's just 1 example of quite few, some of which you have reviewed. Am I missing something as your reviews are normally on point!?!
I think some of the standouts here are the Movement, 904L and overall thinness and footprint of the watch.
Thats why I titled it "affordable HIGH horology?""..because of that movement and precious metals used (Gold / Platinum etc)
Is it worth it?..well for the person who money might not be an object and they are looking for something a little different...this could be for them.
For the vast majority of us though, you're absolutely right, for that price we would be looking at better priced and established branded pieces instead
Thanks for sharing Tom 👍
@@PeterKotsa Thank you Peter. As always, you clearly show your happiness to interact, elaborate and answer queries raised and ultimately contribute to our understanding and enthusiasm for watches. Much appreciated.
Says 0 backplay in the shot which you can clearly see backplay.
its a terribly bland dial and the power reserve day night indicator and date window seem like they where thrown on after they dont match at all. maybe some more vibrant or nicer dials would make this gr8 as the movement is beautiful and the strap is great its just a shame the actual watch doesnt look interesting or coherent not sure its worth more then a GS, zennith, omega, jlc etc etc
7000$ this is Hubris 😮
Peter, Peter you are too expensive for your tastes 🎉 Planet earth here 🌍 Apollo 000 can you hear me? 🙉
Hahahahahaha
haha
hahahahaha
ha
Peter bro, may I have your opinion? Orient Ray 2 or Kamasu?
Black dial or blue?
Bracelet or rubber strap?
Ευχαριστώ, Leonidas
I will have to disagree with you... as nice as the watch looks and as cool as it is that they are trying to do it as an independent brand with their own movement... they price range is way off.. we are in the same range as Tudor / Omega / Grand Seiko... why would i buy this? what are they bringing to the table that all those 100+ year old brands do not?
wow 72 hours nice mini rotor that 24 hour dial and polished center links bring it DOWN
I agree Tommy, I'd be more inclined for the brushed bracelet option in a watch like this
I can't see paying over $1000 for a microbrand like this. Christopher Ward have nice c60s. Even Monta which is way too much, imo, is only about $2000. Insane to try to charge $7000. You should have LED the review with this, since it is such a big factor.
Its too fussy and busy for me, also not really a fan of the 1970's integrated design or the blingy nature. Looks great build quality and the customisation is cool. Overall a well done watch ans nice clasp. Way too much for me to even consider plus not my taste stylewise.
Too expensive for me but if it weren't, it would still be too big.
Date remedy: Eliminate the the date.