Ives Symphony No. 4 - Stokowski - Introduction & Performance
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- Опубликовано: 26 дек 2014
- Charles Ives's 4th Symphony was given its World Premiere in 1965 by Leopold Stokowski and the American Symphony Orchestra. A few days later they made work's first recording and also played it in a televised studio performance, seen here, which was introduced by Stokowski and others, including co-conductors Jose Serebrier and David Katz, and John McClure, producer of the CBS recording.
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I had three great moments to share: Stokowski conducted my first orchestral work, Portrait #1 - Serebrier composed a wonderful Accordion and Chamber Orchestra piece, Passacaglia and Perpetual Mobile (I did the New York Premiere) and John McClure produced an unreleased Rock Album of mine for Columbia. The greatest artists one can ever get close to - I was lucky - I had a glimpse
I was at this premier performance in 1965. I was 22 yrs. old. Stokowski stopped the orchestra at one point and explained its essence and difficulty. I explain this in my book. You could tell that the audience was somewhat disturbed and expressed a sigh of relief after the adagio part. The Beethoven 5th was the concluding work which certainly made sense. Prior to the Ives work, the orchestra performed the Flying Dutchman overture and the Haydn symphony no. 31. I appreciate this work more today.
John McClure was the unsung genius behind many Columbia/Sony Classical recordings, having worked personally with such conductors and composers as Stravinsky, Bernstein and Stokowski, as well as being a truly modest individual.
As a 24-year-old grad school student at U Penn, I came with my comp seminar and our teacher, George Rochberg, to hear this premiere. And Jose Serebrier, one of the assistant conductors involved in the performance, was a member of our comp seminar.
And thanks to an extremely generous gift from someone who's championed MY music, I own the published, critical edition of this complex and incredible score.
One of the greatest thrills of my life was to hear the National Symphony Orchestra perform Charles Ives' Fourth Symphony live, with Leonard Slatkin conducting. This recording--as a "first pass"--is simply amazing. I agree with Maestro Stokowski--it would have been wonderful to have Ives there during the rehearsal to clarify certain passages and check the work. Ives' wife Harmony was there for the official premiere, as was Julian Myrick, his business partner. At the World Premiere performance, as Stokowski was about to start, Mr Myrick let out a loud sneeze. Stokowski turned to the audience and said, to great laughter, "That's not in the score." And what a thrill to hear Jose Serebrier (later to conduct his own magnificent recording of the Fourth for RCA on Ives' 100th birthday), John McClure (later head of Columbia Masterworks) and Elayne Jones (a true pioneer, as the first African-American lead tympanist in an American orchestra) speak so movingly and thoughtfully about the music. Bravo to Maestro for insisting that Ms Jones be part of the ASO. And double bravo to him for taking on such an ambitious and difficult project at age 82.
OH, GOSH, WOW....YOU WERE THERE TOO?!!! Wasn`t that the most riveting experience? At the performance I attended, Mr. Slatkin was having the musicians perform some excerpts which would have been buried in the overall cacophony, one of which was an off-beat rendition of a hymn after which an audience member got up and began walking out of the concert hall. Mr. Slatkin stopped speaking, paused, and then said, "You know, you really should stick around to see how all of this comes out." And during the 2nd movement the music was so ridiculously nuts that I just burst out laughing; and so did others around me! How any human beings could ever perform such outrageously complex music is absolutely beyond me (I`ve seen some of the score). I have trouble enough with 5/4. I`m happy, also, that Mr. Slatkin took this piece to Detroit.
I first heard this work when, as an eighteen year old (1965), I stumbled across it in a record bin in a store. I had no idea who Ives was--never heard of him. But the subtitle on the front cover said (words to the effect), "The recording that started the Ives revolution!" That caught my imagination. I then read the back cover and was riveted. I also had never heard transcendentalism but was intrigued. So I bought the record and, frankly, it woke up my psyche to something I had latent within me and the rest, as they say, is history. I discovered that I was, in fact a transcendentalist myself. And I have Charlie to thank for it. I pursued not only a career in music but also a transcendent spirituality as well. I don't think it's going too far to say that this work changed my life as I think it has many others as well. And it's been my "friend" my entire life. It's superb wake up call.
I can relate to all that. I've just watched this video because it's 50 years to the day since I first heard the recording--a date I'll never forget! Our local library (in a hick town in England) had a record department and this was in the collection. I borrowed it because the cover picture intrigued me, and it was the start of a love affair that has never faded. I was only 14 and I don't think I'd even heard Beethoven or Brahms symphonies at that time, so I had no prejudices about what a symphony ought to be. Emerson believed that we can only grow spiritually by experiencing the world with our own eyes and ears, not by relying on the interpretations of others. Ives put that belief into practice in all his music. He is America's Beethoven, in my opinion.
Wonderful feedback!
Me too.
This is an archival gift.
This is one of my favorite recordings, still holding its place decades later as an outstanding achievement in recording history. I had never been aware of this documentary on the performance. Very grateful that you shared it.
I know every note of this piece, and I doubt any historic piece ever had a more brilliant premiere than Stokowski and the American Symphony managed with this performance of one of the most difficult works in the repertoire. Certainly later performances have gotten deeper into it, but I still think this is one of the finest, because of Stoki's tremendous musicality. And he was, what, 82 at the time? It was his crowning achievement.
I agree. There is one moment that Stokowski creates himself ( I think, I don't own the score) that is magic itself. It occurs here at 38.00. No other conductor performs this moment this way, but it fits with Ives' program so beautifully. I hear Ives - answering the question that is the theme of the work - saying, "STOP! LOOK! LISTEN!"
I attended one of the first performances with Stokowski, Katz, and Serebrier at Carnegie Hall. It was amazing, and life-changing. In that performance, the stage managers had to rearrange the chairs due to the disparity of ensemble size of each movement. After the bombshell of the second movement, while there was this stage pause, I'd say 1/3-1/2 of the audience got up and left. Really! They were expecting some traditional "tonal" music. Ives's joke of following this Leviathan with a traditional, gracious fugue was evident. I'm sure he might have expected an exodus before the lovely 3rd movement. This is a wonderful video to recall attending this landmark work.
Great to hear the comments of John McClure - truly insightful!
A fantastic work--- inside you are on the curb of your hometown..parade....listening as the bands march through...end of one, and now comes the next...2 conductors...2 tempos. Fourth mvmt---truly ethereal...wonderful!!
This is a treasure.
Thank you very much for this historic video, a wonderful music learning!
Thanks for sharing this. I've loved this symphony since I first heard it, about 41 years ago.
Still one of the best performances.
Thanks forever.
So happy to have access to this record. I've been to 2 concert performances, and they both had very large choirs - which sounded small. I love this small group's sound. Love and peace.
CHARLES IVES is the famous American few know at all and fewer know well. So it goes. Enjoy the scope of the sound. This symphony will enroll listeners in the 23rd century as readily as it does in the 21st century.
This is wonderful. A great achievement to perform this for the first time having never heard it before. The last movement fades out with "Nearer My God To Thee". Thank you so much for posting this.
This is a wonderful video, I had this performance on vinyl and now got to actually see it. Never knew it was te actual premiere either. Thanks for the upload!!!
You're very welcome!
Thank you for posting this!
A great work. Bernard Herrmann had for many years 'badgered' Stokowski into performing this symphony. "Benny" related for me in 1974 how happy he was when at long last the performance of the symphony was broadcast and, later, recorded for commercial release.
Thanks for commenting that. Bernard Herrmann had a fondness for Ives.
John? Do you know if Herrmann attended the premier? I'd be surprised if he didn't.
I love Benny's saying that, after trying to get his friend interested in Ives, Stoki said, "Oh, you keep Ives for yourself."
I am over the MOON delighted that Stokowski didn't stick to his own advice.
This is one of my favorite videos of all TIME!
In response to Mr Allen, I have no idea if Herrmann attended the premier. Incidentally, it would have been courteous of Mr Allen to call me by my family name as opposed to my given name.
I call Ives, "Charlie," Herrmann, "Benny" and Stokowski, "Stoki." Your in good company.
@@MarcAllenCramnella Herrmann, who as you probably know had performed various portions of Ives' works on the radio in the 30's, was certainly enthusiastic enough to want to attend. However, I feel that Steven Smith would surely have mentioned BH attending the premiere, it that had happened. 1965 was a very bleak year for the composer, so he might not had had the energy to go to NY that April. He was going through his divorce, scored only one film that year (Joy in the Morning, which flopped), and then the Torn Curtain crisis that started near the year's end...
What a find! Wonderful, and thank you for this!
What a pleasure to see this.
It's ecstasy!
I can very much recommend a book with writings by Ives himself called "Essays before a Sonata, The Majority and other writings". Extremely insightful about the man, his philosophy and his music.
i loved the part where stravinsky wont let him (John McClure)have the score back. and the part where he said he hears deep loneliness in the piece. i hear it too.
Thank you for this download. This is a musicological breakthrough. Here's where America removed itself from Europe's shadow in art music.
That's what Schonberg thought, when he moved here.
Very interesting performance and documentary. Nice to see Elayne Jones, a true pioneer!
The introduction refers to Ives as "an insurance man." That's an understatement. It shouldn't lead one to infer he sold insurance. He worked in the actuarial department of Mutual Life in New York. Thus spake Wikipedia: "Actuaries (. . .) require analytical skills, business knowledge, and an understanding of human behavior and information systems to design and manage programs that control risk." These are the people who decide what your insurance should be, based on weighing as many factors as they can. More: "During his career as an insurance executive and actuary, Ives devised creative ways to structure life-insurance packages for people of means, which laid the foundation of the modern practice of estate planning."
Within the insurance industry, he was famous - almost a legend. In his spare time, he composed music - which came as a surprise to his peers.
"What would you ask Charles Ives if he were alive today?" My answer would be the same as John McClure's: I would be too struck dumb by his genius to ask a meaningful question.
The Unasked Question?
I'd ask him to stop.
I would just let him talk.
... che bel documento ! ! !
Interesting to hear the very first thoughts on how this symphony should be performed, albeit in very limited sound.
Interesting also to hear Stokowski attempting to conclude the second movement as conventionally as possible - which we now know Ives didn't want.
Splendid.
Thank you for uploading this wonderful video, which dates from a time when the U.S. still had considerable cultural sensibility. One of the interviewees remembers being bowled over in his 20s by listening to the Concord? Seriously?
Sure, he was a showman. But how do you explain Stokowski's unique gift for making the most radical (for its time) music sound utterly accessible and inevitable? He did, after all, premiere the Mahler 8 when absolutely nobody would have approached the thing. The Ives 4 is comparably difficult.
HE also brought us Berg, Varese, Schonberg, SO many others....
just wow. thank you
not exactly as ives wrote it, but stokowski brings out the poetry in this work, unlike more contemporary conductors.
Elayne Jones ! A dynamo in the pit (and outside of the pit!) here in San Francisco. I loved peering over the lip of the stage to catch her eye for a quick "connect" during sitz probes at the Opera
Thank you !!!!!
Does anyone remember the Public Television program about Charlie's life?It portrayed him from a young man to a mature composer...,with several confrontations w/"stuffed shirts"about his very radical music??It was run once during the 70's...,now I can't find it...,not even a DVD or VHS!!
+xtremenortherner it's called "A Good Dissonance Like a Man" and you can find it at many libraries. however, it's very much a mythological portrayal of Ives, based largely on his Memos and on the Cowell's biography, both of which create a particular kind of persona that was only one part of Ives's life
Oops! Forgot to say thank you for telling me the title of that video! Sometimes I just listen to the last 2 movements when I don't feel like I can handle the "immensity"of the 1st&2nd ones! I really like Ive's music overall;and am pleased that now in the 21st century w/ the internet;a larger audience can hear these masterpieces.
I have this on VHS.
*🇺🇸🇺🇸 Charles Ives 4th Symphony 🇺🇸🇺🇸*
*🗽Conducted by Leopold Stokowski🗽*
00:00 *Introduction*
00:55 *I. Prelude: Maestoso*
04:32 *Interviews & Commentary with*
*Leopold Stokowski, John McClure*
*& others*
*Charles Ives (1874-1954)*
*Symphony No. 4 (1916-1924)*
25:20 *I. Prelude: Maestoso*
29:01 *II. Comedy: Allegretto*
41:03 *III. Fugue: Andante moderato*
*con moto*
48:39 *IV: Finale: Very slowly - Largo*
*maestoso*
56:58 *Credits*
*The Schola Cantorum of New York*
*Hugh Ross, director*
*American Symphony Orchestra*
*Leopold Stokowski, conductor*
*José Seribrier & David Katz, associate conductors*
_Manhattan Center_
_New York City, USA 🇺🇸 1965_
Genius
How I wished that they had used a vastly larger choir for that first movement. This has got to be my favourite rendition of the second movement, though!
This is film music. Did Ives influence film composers ? While the rest of the world ignored him, the film composers devoured him. This would be interesting musicology.
Bernard Herrmann was an early champion and friend of Ives (also of Stokowski).
What film? The Naked Lunch?
BEST SELLING LP BILLBOARD MAGAZINE CLASSICAL CHARTS
31:25 That poor page-turner!
As close to an Ives' documentary as there is..... and that's odd considering the magnitude of what Ives represents in terms of true American innovation that simply couldn't have been cooked up in any other country.....and I think today, on this occasion of his birthday, it's so important to remember that as we wallow in the crasser aspects of this culture, because this country has produced towering, indigenous genius of which I can think of few more visionary than Ives----and yes, John McClure here really got it, which back then was just so hard to do as it went so hard against so many conventions that were just set in stone---that's great and extraordinarily rare
Have you seen Michael Tilson Thomas' documentary about the Holidays symphony? It's extremely well put together and really gets at what Ives was all about, as well. That was my introduction to Ives' genius several years ago, and I still watch it sometimes.
The "Reville" is even more prominent in the final measures of Ives 2nd, before the climactic 13-note "train wreck."
Richard Fitz in the percussion section.
38:00 absolute genius.
Richard Fitz on snare?
この交響曲は第2楽章で指揮者が2人必要な珍しい曲。こうして映像で観られるのは面白い。
39:00
No originality! It seems Hindemith...nothing else! As almost all american composer!!! Music is EUROPE certainly no USA!!!🤣
I'll pass along your kind thoughts to Elliott Carter and Duke Ellington.
Ives started working on this in 1910. What had Hindemith composed of any note by 1910?
what
You "argument" is wrong because you didn't considered timeline.
After the first note in the distant past was sounded, it can be said that all that followed was derivative. But, to say that this piece, this composer, and indeed most American composers have no originality, is beyond being ill-informed.