Vintage HiFi speaker drivers like THIS was the BEST for a reason
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 9 июл 2024
- Vintage Audiophile Tannoy, JBL and Altec speakers used to use a special material called AlNiCo in their speaker drivers. And it made it special...
for more info on our Reviewer info, patreon, and personal interest in our reviews: nbtsmedia.com/about-us/
Also check out a video about...
Spotify for Hi-Fi Absolutely Sucks? 🤔
• Spotify for Hi-Fi Abso...
Why you shouldn't buy Chinese Hi-Fi products
• Why you shouldn't buy ...
Is HiFi For Rich People because I can't afford anything: • Is HiFi For Rich Peopl...
Hi-Fi Real Talk ! Maximize/evaluate your Speaker's performance in a small room
• Hi-Fi Real Talk ! Maxi...
PATREON: / nbts
Instagram: / nbtstudio2017
Facebook: / next-best-thing-studio...
Twitter: / nbtstudio2017
#hifi #audiophile #vintagehifi 
Развлечения
for more info on our Reviewer info, patreon, and personal interest in our reviews: nbtsmedia.com/about-us/
Also check out a video about...
Spotify for Hi-Fi Absolutely Sucks? 🤔
ruclips.net/video/Wj4SXqsDgM8/видео.html
Why you shouldn't buy Chinese Hi-Fi products
ruclips.net/video/rvQkJYKYw0o/видео.html
Is HiFi For Rich People because I can't afford anything: ruclips.net/video/E2pjBAq-VgQ/видео.html
Hi-Fi Real Talk ! Maximize/evaluate your Speaker's performance in a small room
ruclips.net/video/i1LMzgRWfaI/видео.html
Is it the AlNiCo that makes all the difference? or is it as much the rest of the design and build quality, of those high end drivers that used it? I wonder what those old drivers would sound like with neodymium magnets?
@@mfr58 intriguing thought ! Actually there where titanium variations of the alnico drivers used in the 4311 and to me they sounded quite different
@@Jayiyagi I'm curious as to how the material that holds the magnetic field makes a difference to how a driver sounds....assuming equal magnetic strength....I guess the some materials maintain their magnetism longer than others, which may explain the vintage drivers keeping their quality over time....but I suspect there is some other attribute, as yet unidentified, that gives the unique "Alnico" sound....
I also remember them being called Alnico.
I have the Tannoy HPDs but wonder whether Alnico is the magic ingredient. I think it has a lot to do with larger diameter drivers that went out of vogue. The larger driver may have more mass but it barely has to move for the same spl as a smaller driver whose larger excursion causes IM distortion below CO freq hence BBC monitors having minimal output below 80hz to keep midrange clean. Makes me wonder how high end two way speakers manage to produce clean midrange from a long throw woofer?
I do agree that good modern equipments can make your brain happy, but old style equipments with old materials like tube and alnico drivers will make your heart happy. That is why I prefer tube over solid state most of the time.
This!
I absolutely love my vintage LSU/HF 12/8 Tannoy’s. Poly cap replacement inside the original crossover pack. There is something to be said about concentric drivers and the accuracy of the phase response. The level of detail, speed and smoothness is astonishing! Especially for a 50 year old driver with all original cones.
Having owned the old Tannoys, (Red, Silver, Gold, and HPD) and quite a few modern speakers with polyprop cones, low efficiency, as well as solid state and tubes.. I must admit that I'm glad I kept one pair of Tannoy HPD since they have a unique sound. Papercones, relatively efficient at 92db I think, and that special sound of their COMPRESSION drivers and alnico magnets.. Tannoy now has abandonned "compression" drivers and do use metallic tweeters behind their mid-bass drivers in most models and you can hear it. Just different. You either like it or.. not. I've sold my DMT 10 one month after I got them. Even my tube amps could not give them warmth, bloom.. fun. Yes, Alnico + paper cones + compression drivers is one of the winning combinations of that old era.
Most if not all of those alnico speakers also had paper cones....which you rarely find in modern speakers and it definitely makes a difference in the sound.
Yeap, paper drivers are my faves for sounding really natural - more natural than most other materials.
I have an affinity for the Bozak woofers. It's a proprietary composite made with pulp paper and wool. Rudy Bozak knew what he was doing.
I would love to hear a set of Tannoys ...
Alnico drivers are still alive and well in the guitar amp industry. Companies like Celestion and Eminence produce most of them. They aren't cheap though. They typically range from $100-350 for a 10 or 12" speaker. Guitar amps mostly use 12" drivers.
$100 to $350 for a ten or twelve is the normal price for a low end to decent midrange sub driver. Not super expensive.
@@Audfile Yeah that's true. When you look at a $350 modern sub, it makes the Alnico speaker look like a pos. Although of course we know that the Alnico is badass. They've just been making them exactly the same since the 1950's. They go to great lengths to make them that way.
@@rigorhead01 oh just taking prices. But then again a guitar amp driver is not a sub driver! Bad comparison!
Include Jensen Alnico Speakers!! ✌
There is a whole WORLD of difference between an instrument and its amplification, or audio production and audio reproduction.
One is meant to be voiced and have or impart a character, the other is meant to entirely get out of the way and as faithfully as possible reproduce the signal being sent to it.
One is an actual instrument, intended to have character and colour. The other is absolutely NOT.
Jay, your curiosity and passion is what we can all (or many can) relate to and what makes your channel interesting. The wonderful world of music and audio and the technology that connects it to us is a timeless journey. There is always an answer...until the next question or equation to solve. Most often supported by engineering but always created in the eyes, ears and perspective of the beholder. Truly, the strength of us as human beings and the ultimate opportunity for us all. Thanks for the perspective.
Current Tannoy prestige series from the Kensington onwards all use Alnico drivers.
That was going to be my point, the prestige uses it...
as an owner of vintage altec lansing 16 inch drivers with alnico magnets and never heard a driver that sounds so good and they still looks like new after 45 years .i will never replace that driver .....
Agree. Will take a lot of cash to separate me from my Altec 15” 604-8h alnico coax w mantaray dispersion horn
@@stillastillsfan love that driver bro .i have the 416 8z wich i will never replace .i try to look for another pair like that...
With ess hail air transformers as mid high unit....
I kind of regret moving my 604s along, just so big, , like 2 fridges..came out of a Canadian rock icons studio.
I'm still waiting to buy a heritage Tannoy. My favourite speakers of all time. I love the warmth, the heft, and how involving they are. I really don't care if they aren't linear or that accurate. I hate analytical speakers.
About 15 years ago at CES, and old-time horn designer told me that Alnico magnets were more linear than neodymium magnets. And I did like the sound of those older JBL woofers. (My 'back in the day' well precedes your 'back in the day' - LOL.)
Had a set of 70's JBL's such an awesome sound.
Interesting info, Jay. Thanks.
Field coil drivers are another style that is really magical imo. There are still a few manufactured today. Horribly expensive because they use electromagnets instead of permanent magnets.
Line Magnetic, also a guy in Germany.
Classic Audio Reproductions
I never read into it but just assumed 'Alnico' was the speaker magnet's compound material. My own 1969 Tannoy 15" M/Gold's worked perfectly (to my ears) until about a year or less ago, when 1 speaker's cone started magnet rubbing (lost it's alignment) am they are not the later HPD series which have replacable foam which could fix the problem. I keep them in case some company could put it back to original. They remain my most fave speaker ever. Until you mentioned 'bloom' i didn't realise they had a perfect amount of it, to my ears. Their engineering is phenomenal i noticed when tsking the 'rubbing' one apart. I thought i saw how the compression driver had 5 or so "magnetic shunt rods" from the big magnet to save itself from having a seoerate magnetic structure, but that was guesswork & all i know is that i yearn to hear them again & my 4 (worthy) stashed speakers still have not alleviated my Tannoy D.C. yearning. With 15" drivers & high efficiency, i guess the main driver's movement is small in an averagely smallish living room. One u.k. company said they could fix the faulty driver for me, but when i asked about what surrounds & if neccessary, what cone they would use, i simply got no further correspondence although i had asked in the nicest of fashion, i wanted to know what their plan was because the cone's surround termination seems to be an integral part of it's whole construction, but they didnt want to answer me or even request i send them the working cone, so i believe they had no plan to match it to anything & i would have got a different inferiour sounding speaker back, but my question put them off from all further correspondance. One guy on a forum said he had his same Tannoys with rubber surrounds, maybe it's a way forward to hear them agsin but i'm not keen. They were "The best i ever had" warts being a woody collouration due to their cheapest 1969 version with "Tannoy Lancaster" cabs. But that could have been improved with bracing (they lacked any, just sheep's wool inside mine) "Wonderful speakers" beyond time & new technology considerations, i.m.o.
btw, In 1988'ish, one replacement cone for the 12" version was g.b. £1300, i found from a burgled... (maliciously so, prob because they were too big to carry off into the night) ...friend who needed to replace a totally kicked-in 12" Tannoy & had rang Tannoy U.K. in Scotland to price a replacement
I have a pair of tannoy hpd 385 in Arden enclosure,I bought the drivers in 1978 ,and awhile later built a pair of Arden enclosures,these speakers blew me away with the quality,even had police at my place and the said they could hear them 2 blocks away,I had a 20 w. Per channel special amp driving them and if I turned them up too far they sounded like the 15 inch sub in my ladcruiser,.
Haven't hear them for 40 years as the cones came apart and I move to other side of Australia (Victoria).thank you for information in your article that I didn't know,I intend rebuilding my tannoy speakers
I can call myself the lucky owner of Tannoy Berkeleys with the original HPD 385 units, overhauled and in mint condition they keep amazing me.
Now in addition i bought a restored Sony TA-5650 VFET amplifier, also totally revised.
The Sony i bought last week and still testing it and i love it, my older brother owns the 4650 for many years also in combination with Berkeleys. The characteristics of VFET transistors are that of a triode tube. Our entire family are hooked on Tannoy speakers for a reason, they simply sound astonishing.
I think you are my favorite RUclips channel regarding hi-fi. I am fortunate enough to have a lot of equipment and speakers. I don’t care about measurements and I never have. I only care about how things sound to MY ear. Mixing abs marching components. And speaker setups to find that works best is something I really enjoy abs then finding the correct placement for my speakers etc. is something I really enjoy. Fine tuning different speakers with different setups. So many people in audio feel money is quality and it helps but it’s not the way to get the best sound. I have always found Alnico speakers to have a certain musicality that cannot be measured on paper. I love my Tannoy’s but I have a pair of AR90’s that have mind blowing bass. I prefer a horn tweeter, but of course not for everything. I have some Maggie’s and I found them to have ample bass when setup acoustically correct with the right power source for them. However, I decided to add some Rel subswoofers it’s really the only sub I could get to accommodate the speed necessary to keep up with the Maggie’s. I have a few pair of JBL’s from Kendrick Audio and wow they are huge but amazing. They do things that just blow my mind. Once I got all the correct components they just came to life. And provide me an extreme level level of enjoyment. People love Naim products. I’m not a fan at all. I have some Wilson Audio speakers and Naim is probably the worst component I have ever heard connected to them. People will come over and think wow. Look at that. I will tell them how terrible the Naim products sound on them. They don’t believe me but I put my setups and then use the Naim components then they hear the vast difference. I could careless about price and I’m not brand loyal in any way. I’m loyal to my ears. People need to find they personal taste and grow that taste. I have found myself agreeing with so much of your content. It makes me wonder how many people are out there promoting products for profits. I don’t hear what they hear. I don’t come to the same conclusions. Everyone is so concerned with specs. Musicality to the ear is all I care about. I have changed so many of my friends opinions by letting them hear and not letting them know what components I am using. we all tend to come to the same conclusions when we solely rely on the ear only. Sending you good luck on your channel. Keep up the good work. I’m a big fan.
I think the reason these where coveted back in the day is more to do with proper design and build quality, rather than the magnet material itself. AlNiCo was the neodymium magnet of yesteryear, so to use it indicates that the driver manufacturer wanted no compromise in the design. I remember some of the matinees had the Altec A7's, and I certainly lusted after them as a teenager, but they sound quite dated compared to what is available today. Never the less, some of these older vintage speakers still do stand the test of time. As far as drift in performance goes, thats much more likely to be due to deterioration of the driver/cone materials and glues rather than anything with the magnet. The rest of the speaker will perish long before the magnet has any issues.
The term bloom is also used for guitar amp & guitars but i dont understand what it means ? Is it like harmonic sweet distortion that appeals the ears?
My guess is Rare Metals magnets used in modern speakers today are much more powerful than decades ago. Wouldn't this impact the size of the drivers? Just a guess.
I have a pair of 40+ year old Altec 604-8G speakers with the AlNiCo magnets. I also have a pair of the new GPA 604's with the ferrite magnets. They sound completely different. The new ones are in boxes in the closet and the old ones are playing right now.
Line Magnetic is making a version of the old Alnico Altecs, right? LM-222 I believe. Enclosure looks similar to one of the old 604s. I inherited a pair of Valencias and they are still the best speakers I've ever heard. I never realized that they were really great until I heard other contemporary speakers -- primarily because I grew up with them in my parents house. Everything else sounded flat and muddy.
Well, I guess I should finally stop calling them Alinco. AlNiCo. got it
I’m 34 years old and have also fallen in love with the tube / alnico combo. I have listened to numerous hifi speakers but have settled on alnico JBLs. I’m now getting into Tannoy monitors. I find they have the exact same bloom or magic you speak of. My JBLs list of L80t, early all alnico L100, 4312, L166, L200 (with original alnico LE15 and new 2216ND woofer) , L300, and I still find myself preferring the all alnico L100 and L300. The L166 is a close third though.
My next speaker will be Tannoy Red 12, which I’m thinking of installing in an old MCM stereo cabinet with my tube fisher 400 (legendary).
Thank you for another great video, Jay. I believe AlNiCo (as it is sometimes spelled) was used in all sorts of transducers because it lost is magnetism rather slowly and especially because of its high flux density or the power of its magnetic field. This was essential given the low powered amplifiers of the day because it allowed for high efficiency speakers. At least some rare Earth magnets today exceed AlNiCo in these respects. But what about the differences you detect? It is only speculation on my part, but there may be measurable factors. One is that AlNiCo magnets are big compared to things like neodymium which can cause reflections and possible harmonics. More importantly they're not only big but they are enormously heavy which may contribute to damping vibrations. The high efficiency aspect of these magnets may tend to produce louder volumes when compared to other speakers making them sound better despite any flaws of frequency response, phase, etc. The need for efficiency was coupled with large cone area. Larger cone areas, all other things being equal, will produce reductions in intermodulation distortion. Many thinking term modulation distortion is not an important factor but there are studies to the contrary as well as my own experience. Back in the heyday of AlNiCo magnets and before, field coil speakers were popular. In these there was no permanent magnet but rather a second electromagnet (in addition to the voice coil) that was of a constant polarity against which the voice coil and attached cone could react. Many see field coil speakers as making a comeback. It does allow one to adjust numerous parameters that are not allowed by permanent magnets. Keep up the great open-minded research and reporting . It and you are appreciated by friend!
Great post mate.
@@rationalmartian Thanks! Part of my family is from "Down Under"!
@Marten Dekker @Marten Dekker Thanks for the reply. I am familiar with the even versus odd order harmonic argument and think there is certainly something to it. I don't understand how a magnetic structure could do one kind or the other without vibrating. But the vibrating is something that a magnetic structure should not do. Further, it is unclear how one kind of magnetic material versus another would alter the harmonic structures in a consistent fashion. Do you have more information? This sounds really fascinating. Thanks again!
Modern Tannoys and JBLs still use alnico drivers in certain models. The modern drivers are not smaller than the older models. The L300s actually have a small compression driver. Take a look at the 2441/2440 used in the 4350's, they are 4-5 times bigger. JBL still make compression drivers the same size as the L300 and 4350 drivers.
It seem you are really fan of Alnico Magnet (speakers/drivers) sound...have you listened to Field Coil Magnet (classic/Resto mod/modern classic) ?
I think WESTREX/JBL/JENSEN/ALTEC/TANNOYS sound ...primarily due to horn/compression driver design...cone speakers ...the bigger the better.
Your absolutely correct on your views. The huge massive speakers from JBL, ALTEC LANSING, ELECTROVOICE, KLIPSCH, plus a couple of other American makes that were in the movie theatres of the 50"s - 70's. These all were low wattage tube powered driven. They were very efficient and had powerful sound. Pure classic and classy for the time period.
In the 50’s through 80’s Electro-Voice made Klipsch drivers. Most current Klipsch Heritage line woofers are made by Eminence.
Jay, my first stereo system was a Heathkit SA-2 integrated amp with a pair of GE 401 12" coaxials in GE 406 corner cabinets (given to me by my uncle back in 1972) - I've been a "Bottle - Head" ever since then.
I built a Heathkit stereo receiver I think back around 78/79 I don’t remember exactly now too many years ago. I think it was the AR 1500 again memory loss. It was a Best Buy in Consumer Reports Magazine at the time.
Heathkit put together some great kits in its day. The manuals were well documented, including trouble shooting components if needed. Heathkit was sold to Zenith later.
I wish I still had that receiver.
@@davidfromamerica1871 The Heathkit amp I had was from 1961 or '62 it was 12 watts per channel and used four EL84 tubes in the output section. When it died a couple of years later I wound up buying a Pioneer receiver and always felt something was missing from the music.
Sometimes harmonic distortion of old tech sounds thicker and fuller.
...and that's OK as long as your understand it's contrary to the concept of "high fidelity," which means "great faithfulness" to the source material and eschews added coloration like "thicker and fuller."
@@editorjuno Yes indeed Bruce. I fully concur mate.
@Marten Dekker -- The idea that a magnet somehow "has...distortion" is absurd.
TAD Drivers from the 80s... not saying that they are better than TAD current drivers, but they are AMAZING regardless, even for current standards.
What it has improved a LOT is power handling and Xmax.
I like this guy. Thoughtful and well spoken.
Audio Note still makes them at the very top circa 6 models. Yes you are right, they have a very special sound, making a lot of the newer and fancier units sound very flat/incensere. And yes they cost a lot, and AN actually improved on the original unit sound. They start using them at around AN-E SEC signature. That is one of the reasons why I call it one of the top 10 speakers on the planet of all time.
A tip for Tannoy DC owners .They sound wonderful with the Chinese copy Dartzeel NHB 108 amplifiers.I have had plenty of Tannoys and tried plenty of amps over the years -SS ,Class A SS.Push pull tube ,SET Tube.Gainclones,Class D and nothing sounds as good as these affordable Dartzeel copes.Not even close.They must be used with a god active preamp however.And they take ages to break in and open up.
My Guitar world once again bleeding into my hifi world Jay! Alnico are still widely produced and commonly used in guitar amps. Their sonic qualities vs ceramic are the debate of a million guitar nerd threads! Personally, alnico's from eminence and celestian are my shit.....smoother decay. Funnily enough, a 12 inch paper cone alnico speaker being driven by a 15 watt tube head is still the holy grail of guitar sound!
@@amb3cog ya, technically Strontium Ferrite, marketed and commonly referred to as ceramic speakers in the guitar world.
@@amb3cog ya I don't know where that came from either! Quick Google or youtube search of alnico vs ceramic guitar speaker and you will see it everywhere! Guitar world is full of those weird little misnomers.
Jay,
the JBL 4350 clone speaker you showed at 1:40 is all Ferrite, not one single Alnico driver inside. I was there at European Triode Festival in Berlin 10 years ago, and actual some of my gear is also in that picture.
Speaking for myself, I prefer Alnico to Ferrite and even to Electromagnetics.
Here's a thought, older paper coned large drivers in a larger cabinet used far less power to deliver the sound in comparison to smaller plastic coned speakers with higher powered amps..
Yes because of the technology of the time meant speakers were made to be highly efficient.
Paper cones are faster and produce the midrange much better than plastic cones, and a 2 way speaker is always going to be more accurate and balanced than a 3 way system...
The key for me is how good does it sound at very low volume? I hate having to turn the volume up just to stop it sounding tinny...
I use vintage speakers with a modern transistor amp..
Although I do use a amp to play guitar, but that's a different story as I'm listening to live music, not prerecorded
Audio Note UK makes both speakers and moving coil phono cartridges with alnico magnets.
Although modern magnets are more efficient (higher field strength for lower magnet size), the (back in the 50s) advanced Alnico V magnets could produce fields of 1.95T for the Altec 288 G&H compression drivers (yielding an efficiency of 113.7dB/Wm!), and the 515C 15in woofer an efficiency of 104.7dB/Wm, with a self-resonant frequency of 26Hz, making it one of the best low frequency drivers ever produced, with the added benefit that its self-resonances start only at 3,6kHz, so it also has an excellent midrange as well (while modern 15in woofers have self-resonance issues just above 1-1.5kHz). Using any kind of magnet we tap out around 2.1T (like the top model Focal Utopia beryllium tweeter), and the vast majority of modern (neodymium or ferrite) drivers do not go above mere 1.2T in the 98% of current production drivers. Ferrite and neodynium are very brittle compared to alnico, and their self-resonances also impact the sound the driver makes. Plus, the Alnico drivers were built in a quite different fashion: the magnet was placed inside the voice coil, and the magnetic circuit was closed from the outside, while the modern drivers have the magnet on the outside, and a magnetizable pole piece on the inside. The result is that modern drivers radiate their magnetic field outwards, and also, they are very sensitive to external magnetic fields, while the Alnico motors have self-contained magnetic fields, that is, they do not radiate (loose) magnetic energy to the surroundings, and are also magnetically shielded from them. Well, I might take on your poetic question on what a modern speaker might sound with Alnico drivers. Indeed, there are some in production like Tannoy, but most are just iterations of "old" technology, and do not draw on their true potential. I redesigned my speakers from ground-up, utilizing the 515C for what they were born to do: whip out the subsonic region, with grace and sheer effortlessness.
Look at the magnetic flux curve of the Alnico vs Ceramic magnets and you will see why. With Alnico, a lot more energy is stored and returned each cycle. As an analogy, to me, Alnico are class A, and Ceramic are class D in amplification terms.
Audio Nirvana offers two styles of 8, 10, 12, 15 inch full range drivers with alnico magnets.
some of fostex drivers also have alnico magnets ,but none of them sounds like my vintage altec lansing drivers .jbl and tannoy are the only drivers that come close.....
There is good number of vintage Tannoy videos in my youtube account. You will love them 😊.... Its hard to beat them if in proper cabinets.
Great Plains Audio Offers several Models with Alnicos. They are in the Altec camp.
Alnico was considered a huge downgrade from field coil driven drivers, I think it’s the ability of Alnico to”clips” softer when overdriven, is what people are hearing, like a tube overloads gracefully when overdriven versus the hard clip of solid state. What the much older drivers had was a focus on reproducing the human voice, it’s the chemistry of 5he cone and it’s resonate frequency more than anything else
Someone should be working on a driver that would do this again. Okay so we can't make alnico anymore but, there must be some way to get "that" sound again. For. me music is about emotion not just what sounds "perfect" Sure I don't want speakers to sound grossly distorted but, you're right these older Tannoys did something "Just so" that made every single piece of music emitting from them just special, especially with the proper amplification of course.
The boom is perhaps the surface areas. You see a 15" driver has a surface area of 177 sq in, approx, whereas 1 12 in has a surface of 113 sq in. The newer drivers might have a longer extension, but it does not move as much air. I remember one can feel the air being moved when listening to a 15" driver. But the tactile sensation is gone with the modern speakers. Am I right with my assumption?
mmm. For me, I would have to disagree. Many smaller drivers nowadays (atleast when we start getting to the higher end floorstanders) give me enough and more of what the 15 inches gave me.
Monitor golds are what I use in the bedroom. They are dope.
Great plains audio I this still manufacturers a modern variation of the altec 604 driver. They also restore them as well I think. I think they have all the old production equipment from altec for manufacturing these. Not cheap but glad they still exist. I agree that their is just something about those older high efficiency drivers. I think some of it has to do with tube amplification that was available back in the day and the synergy those two things brought. Thanks jay!
Hawley aquaplass paper cones , alnico has pleasent distortion like the 300b triode....after price explosion of cobalt , forced to use ferrit , ask musicians which they prefer.....which transistor amp sounds like a triode?
That’s too loose statements Jay. You got to go much more in debt about difference about todays drivers and the vintage drivers. You can’t just scratch the surface of this subject.
Good day
Thomas
Magnets of dynamic drivers is a big topic. Some real audiophiles use speakers with electromagnet (field-coil) and custom tube power supplies
Most modern floor standing speakers go still from 30-20000Hz.
Two words, acoustic research. The ar-2a and 3a series speakers, great sound with the alnico drivers.
I heard the new Tannoy Legacy speakers are not as good as the older ones...the tweeters are said to be ear fatiguing😮...shame on Tannoy...it may never be the same😢
There is nothing like the golden age for speakers 1970s - JBLS ALTEC TANNOY 📣
1 - Alnoco magnets dont lose magnetivity
2 - The 16 ohm tannoy reds in the old english and scottish plywood cabinets with high end tube amps is what makes the HUGE difference. There is no comparisson.
The answer to this topic is the combination.
Yes
The tanoy red will also make shit amps sound great too!!
read the title ... haven't watched the video yet but you better be mentioning Tannoy 15 inch Monitor Golds 😊
Jay, I’m being sincere: I’m a little disappointed in you. You mentioned you wonder what Alnico drivers would sound like today in a modern design? Tannoy is making them currently...and they sound splendid! No offense, but I’m now questioning now how much knowledge and experience you really have in Hifi if you aren’t aware that Tannoy currently offers speakers with Alnico magnets. A 2 second Google search would have provided you with this valuable information (which should have also been mentioned in your video). Aside from this 1 issue, thanks for your honesty. That’s why people like you ( your not a sellout). KEEP THAT GOING and you will keep growing your channel. All the best to you and you loved ones.
Yikes. I doubt you but you're honest. Self contradiction is the mark of truly worthwhile feedback. PS: I love you.
Everytime when I fire up my jbl 4343, I just can not stop thinking what all speaker designers are doing last 50 years? I would not exchange them for anything including those Walson monsters.
@Marten Dekker Wilson. That's correct. y typo
Alnico is the material the magnet is made from. Its got nothing to do with the cone, that could still be titanium. Many companys still use it because its better. The only negative is it costs a lot more to produce.
It's the driver size not the magnet.. I have been doing magnet stacking and increase magnetic flux and sound comes out better and better
You'll never match the vintage sound.
At the time I bought my first system at 17. I'm 54 now and still my system is still pounding hard.
Never had one problem with it except it needs a cleaning other words still going very strong.
Listened to many upgraded crap through the years and there was nothing to my liking that even came close to my ears.
So I decided if I am very satisfied what I had since a teenager ,why upgrade to something I won't like.
The vintage RMS are your true wattage systems and not just a bunch of numbers thrown into the equation by companies for last 30 to 40 yrs.
For the record I do respect everybody's thoughts.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and this was mine without being prejudice.
Cheers!!
the drivers i have is dual 18 inch subwoofers at 6400watts ngl
I have new AlNiCo Celestion, Weber, WGS, Eminence speakers in various guitar tube amps. They typically cost £200 for the driver & where the total tube amp with AlNiCo speaker costs £1500. And this is the core tone and sound of what is recorded that is being played back on a £50,000 system...that can’t afford to have AlNiCo drive units...go figure!!!
Tannoy still uses Alnico magnets in their Heritage line, don't they?
What would we have today if we had a modernised (if necessary) Alnico drivers = We will have no business/trade so to speak. No hype, no new products etc. Producing a driver with a Alnico magnet vs Neodym is close to be the same. Difference is weight and maybe shipping prices. But imho Alnico sound better than Neodym. Overall performnce is better, more texture and real dynamics.
My alters Texas have thatad bloom good description
Stupidest thing I ever did was sell my 15" Golds.
Ouch!
You had a pair of Tannoy Gold's? If I had a pair, I'd keep them until I died (and get buried with them!).
I swapped them for a phonostage. Holfi Batriaa. I only had the drivers.
I threw away a Sansui 7070 receiver and Sansui SPX7500 15" (5way) speaker set some 20 years ago.. Today I'm deeply ashamed.. That setup sounded way better than what I have now..
I've had everything from Infinity Irs Beta, B&w 802d2, Apogee grand studio to name a few, and yet I've end up with the most ugly speakers in the world and they sound amazing. TANNOY FSM.
The only thing we know for sure is the 2008 financial crisis brought about a world of inexpensive speakers which are amazingly good, since no one had the income to buy within previous norms.
Like many things, size of homes, and the need for wife approval, have defined anything and everthying we bring into our homes. In the 80s the trend was to go small, and technology accommodated that. Bose comes to mind. Form factor first. Sound later. And for most of the consumers that was a good thing. Big speakers have a place in our hearts. But usually no place in the living room.
Have a pair of Tannoy 15” Golds paired with a Garrard 301, SME 3012 and Denon 103R plus Consonance Tube Amp
Recently had a new set of external Crossovers made by Reference Fidelity Components.
It gave them a new lease of life.
Speakers for life.
The "pole piece" & the size of the Magnetic Gap, also matter. If a "rare earth" Magnet can be designed & placed in the Driver to "focus" better into the Magnetic Gap. It really shouldn't matter. The Truly compromised Magnet type, is the very common "Ceramic" types. Ask Sandy Gross, at 'Golden Ear', He had a lot of experience with "Alnico" magnets. For as a Kid, We both "raced" 1/24th scale Slot Cars. Sandy was so successful. He and a Partner, were paid over a Million $$$$ U.S, from Sponsors ! Yes, that was a "real thing" in the Mid and Late 1960's. It was BIG ! How else do you think Sandy paid for His tuition to Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore ??? That's where He met Matthew Polk, and the rest is History. btw - a weird coincidence - Where We all first raced these Slot Cars in NYC, was POLK's Hobby Shop ! No relation to "Matthew" ... But, Play "the Twilight Zone music" ! lol P.S. Magnetizers to improve the Gauss Ratings of the Motor Magnets , were widely used. Put away, Your fancy Mechanical watch. P.S. P.S. I'm not disputing the spelling. But I'm guessing " ALNICO " could have been a brand or trademark name . thank you. ;-)
Measurements says nothing, all the new guys in audio talk about measuring, lmao !!
What do you mean with musicality? It's an audiophile term which says nothing in my opinion. Tube amplifiers have high distortion but that has nothing to do with hifi. I mean you don't wanna have a speaker which distorts high. Why an amp which produces high distortion?
It's all about throwing around meaningless phrases to make others think you're an Audiophile...;0
Tube amplifiers do NOT have higher distortion than solid state! Solid state amplifiers, run open loop, typically have distortion figures anywhere from 10 to 20 TIMES that of a tube amplifier run open loop! Solid state amplifiers are basically inferior to tube. They require more stages of gain, are more complex by several orders of magnitude, and they achieve their “superior” distortion and noise figures through PRODIGIOUS amounts of negative feedback, and signal processing! The basic technology of solid state wins out only because it’s cheap to make. PERIOD.
-And Alnico magnets died out because ferrite replaced them- MUCH cheaper. Cobalt is a VERY expensive metal. Ferrite is also less prone to demagnetization than Alnico, despite being a weaker magnetic material.
ASR groupie?
@@milesdufourny4813
No, just an engineer and designer with 40 years experience in solid state AND tube amplification, 20 of them working for one of the top 10 amplification component manufacturers in the world...
I think it would be too expensive and hard to obtain cobalt in the first place. Neodymium and ferrite are much cheaper and obtainable metals
In terms of electric ⚡️ guitar cabinet drivers - ALNICO has made a big comeback. Very Gucci these days.
Today, and for the last 15 years..
Yeah they do. Voxativ. Very expensive.
that jbl driver is called a potato masher i use 15 inch Altec 604-8H 100 DB at 1 watt
No its not you knob head. The JBL driver in the video is an LE85.
@@chrislesnar how rude you obviously don't know any thing about JBL lingo
I have the same...Altec model 18 speakers.
@@moodyga40 Nob head, the potato masher is the horn the assembly that bolts onto the compression driver. The horn shown in these videos is 2307 not the potato masher. Stop being such a nob head.
Avantgarde is Alnico
One of the best drivers even today is the leak sandwich driver, developed in the late 50s early 60s a piece of expanding polyurethane foam sandwich between two pieces of aluminium, especially the bass 15-inch driver nothing could come close to it and probably can't today.if you Can get a pair of 2075 leak sandwich speakers they're very good
John ...... I have the Leak 2075's and they are excellent ...... you can hammer those big bass units with heavy rock and disco but they are very good at low levels too. Currently using a 20W SE tube amp but benefit from real power too. You cannot beat a GOOD 12" or 15". To make the big Leak's today ...... thousands ??? UK
@@chrismaynard6016 yes very good want to sell them!!!! You might benefit using a crown amplifier with DSP built-in for the Bass Driver bypassing the internal crossover for the Bass Driver, you can tune The Bass Driver to the other drivers that way. Or another way use an active crossover might be a better route, Nelson pass makes an active crossover design by linkwitz. Or you can get linkwitz crossover ASP and or DSP, From madisound. has it been updated the crossover, what tweeter does it have because there's lots of variations is it the ribbon tweeter? or Wharfedale tweeter? Any experience with the 3090... what valve amp do you have being 15 ohm they are suitable for Valve amps was designed for the leak tl12/ 0.1 yes looking for one of them or selling mine.
Tannoy Gold
AlNiCo drivers are still im market.
Didn't they stop using it because the price of Cobalt went up too high?
one of the reasons yes
How do you call nostalgia for the place you've never been to?
Thirty years ago I would spend long auditioning sessions in front of Alon IV's (Open baffle design with Alinco drivers.) and a pair of VTL MB 450 (Tube - Monoblock's.) Really enjoyed those sessions and if I had the income, I would own them.
Are you yearning for paper cones? Neodymium is the new alnico.
Well duh of course. That’s why us in the guitar world always use Alnico magnets for drivers. Sound sweet and large. And the cost is bullshit. Celestion and a number of other speaker makers use and have always used alnico. They are not expensive.
Voxativ?
They don't make them like that anymore
Alnico is great for guitar amps, but kinda sucks for hifi. Why do hifi nuts prefer lofi tech?
Because they are old. When they were young they were poor. Then they work make money lose their hearing in the process and pine for their youth. They also listen to the same crap they did as teenagers. They do not appreciate music as an art form that evolves but rather build temples to themselves out of larger and larger hi-fi gear where they play the same songs over and over again to preserve a hand full of average but highly personal memories. It's self worship. Navel gazing. Narcissism. Unfettered materialism. It's unhealthy obsession. It's a form of depression.
@@bernardjentner7783 This could be the most wholesome comment on anything hi-fi, I've read in ages. Thank you!
@@JakeXXXJeff Thanks Jake. I bring the truth. I have to fight my urges to play nothing but Radiohead and expand my mind. I like PetitBiscuit from france, Shallou, Destroyer, Kazy Lambist, Bibio, all kinds of amazing new music since the barriers to entry have been destroyed by cheap software. There's never been more amazing music.
I like to simplify things so everybody else can actually understand it so here's how to do it. They make champagne glasses out of plastic glass and crystal and you can even get them in metal flutes if you want. The reason why the speaker sound different is simply due to the fact that the magnets when you couple them electrically have a different resonance and different magnetic response due to current input basically just like we agree that Transformers on a tweeter or in the audio path or capacitor sound different.
if anyone has ever experimented with ferrofluid they will be able to tell you that different magnets May produce different patterns if looked at or inspected closely, now try doing that next to a Wi-Fi router or infac right next to an AC outlet or in a room with a lot of Emi and in a cave or in a faraday cage in fact you will notice that the ferrofluid actually reacts differently.
the reason why the measurements and what you hear usually don't add up has to be something that must be stated because believe it or not it's not just the measurements but how you measure.
why do people buy focal tweeters that go up to 40K when you can spend about $8 and get a pair tweeters that are piezoelectric that do the same thing? anyone with a measurement microphone can tell you that a tweeter can reach a certain frequency and if you actually look on a frequency graph you will see that the Tweeter that's the piezoelectric would on paper at least seem Superior.
but in fact what's really happening is that we're not measuring with our ears for measuring with measuring microphones which have a completely different characteristic compared to what our ears actually perceive as sound.
those who have owned electrostatic speakers for example will absolutely tell you that they do in fact sound different in different rooms conditions from even if they're at different elevations. even the amount of pollution in the room can have solutely affect the sound that's the weird thing about electrostatic speakers. They should measure just fine right from one room to the next and one reuser to the next but they never do.on paper they sound the same but again to people's ears they definitely have audibly different characteristics.
George Carlin a while back actually did something about the F-word and did a whole skit on it and mentioned how is one of the most useful words in the English language as it can have so many different meanings. On paper or on text you can get one meeting or the other but quite honestly if you use it in speech then it can take on a whole host of different meanings.
Less chat more photos, charts and comparisons...
The best drivers are made by Magico, YG Acoustics, Wilson Audio, Rockport Technologies and Kharma. On the more affordable end ATC then make sure you have a sub with the ATC they make no bass but have glorious midrange and their new in house tweeter is nice. I have spoken.
I wonder if you would ever look at a company named voxative.
Vaxativ out of berlin,Germany makes some of the best modern full range drivers. The will sell you full speakers with drivers or their drivers but they are expensive. Some of the less compromised single full range drivers out there.
@@brandonburr4900 yes I've heard of them and I am pretty interested in the product. However it seems like they were there and then they went back underground quickly. And by underground I just mean that they are not doing a lot of marketing anymore
@@dilbyjones that's disappointing to hear. I hope they haven't disappeared. They seem have had some terrific sounding speakers. I'm not sure how much they marketed their product but remember seeing some stuff on eBay. Haven't searched for it in a while. They also did some whole system approaches geared towards streaming. I remember them showing off some fantastic tube gear with their speakers as well but also expensive .
@@brandonburr4900 they definitely have not disappeared but since they are high high-end they really may not want to move into the middle or lower market segments except for people who already know about them...
I feel like the type of product they have requires a certain level of knowledge already so it's super niche
seas exotic driver's
AlNiCo is simply the magnet itself. It is merely a type of magnet. Nothing more.
They were merely the best at the time. Often with relatively small magnets/motors, and with shitty pressed tin baskets. Paper cones too. Not that I'm necessarily faulting paper cones. But we can and do engineer and build much better now especially in terms of baskets and magnets. Engineering and especially with regards speaker drivers, machining and materials science have simply no relation to fifty or sixty years ago. The tweeters too remember were simply smaller paper cone drivers, that could beam like a Laser. There were no dome tweeters. Everything was rolled off and warmer sounding. Look at bloody cassettes especially, with their crappy headroom.
I'm a little skeptical myself. I seriously put much of it down to rose tinted glasses and nostalgia.
But then I'm not enamoured with that soft, rounded off, pudgy sound. There was a time when that was simply the best we could manage. No doubt some still hark back to another time. Then again, I'm not a big fan of Tubes. I think solid state beats the old tech. Just look at the recent leaps in Class D quality and implementation.
If you were to take a well implemented and built speaker or even just a driver back to when these AlNiCo drivers were king. They would be entirely blown the fuck away.
If someone doesn't like all that information retreival and detail, they can always attenuate it. Or toss a tube amp in. ;-)
"Looking" at specifcations and data sheets is one thing, "Listening" peacefully is something completely different. I am quite certain you can buy a new violin that specs better than an old one, but will the new violin sound like a Stradivarius?
AlNiCo has nothing to do with the sound "signature", there are far more important things in a driver than the alloy type of magnet used.
The main reason speaker drivers are not made with AlNiCo anymore is that it degrades over time {loses it's magnetic strength) and it's way more expensive to produce than the more efficient, smaller, stronger and cheaper Neodymium.
Alnico -- of which there are several different alloys numbered 2, 3, 5, and 8 -- emphatically does not degrade magnetically to any significant degree. That's why vintage JBLs are often reconed, but never need to be magnetically repolarized unless they've been severely abused. Moreover, alnico in sizes suitable for woofers is very expensive, hard to shape accurately enough for a precision voice coil gap -- JBL had to outsource their alnico structures to magnetic materials specialist Arnold Engineering back in the day, and even Arnold had a hard time making them to James Lansing's stringent specs -- and extremely heavy. That's why JBL gave up on the classic D-/E-/K- series of musical instrument speakers in the 1980s in favor of the MI- series with ferrite ("ceramic") magnets, and nowadays the trend is toward the even lighter and stronger "rare earth" magnets like neodymium in that market. The resulting musical instrument speakers weren't quite as efficient or as bright ---- they sounded more like the typical "guitar speakers" that market was demanding -- but they were still excellent products, with cast aluminum frames, edge-wound voice coils, and tight voice coil gap tolerances of which James Lansing would have heartily approved.
The subject of magnetic material application engineering is way above the pay grade of any "audiophile" gear reviewer. Alnico was used for loudspeaker drivers because it was the first permanent magnetic material available for that purpose -- thus supplanting the electromagnetic "field coil" speakers that were necessary before WW2, alnico having been essentially invented in Japan -- not because it was the best or the most suitable for such applications. In fact, in most cases it isn't. Period.
Thanks Bruce, you have obviously done a bit of research or have some kind of background in this area.
@@tomhamilton6377 -- You're welcome. I was fortunate enough to work alongside an expert for about ten years -- although not an expert myself, I know enough to separate facts from folklore.
I always enjoy fun FACTS, helps prevent confusion...which may lead to some form of dementia. Cant risk it at my age. Haha. My main bookshelf speakers are 1992 JBL L1 monitors. Not sure what the magnet is made of but they sound amazing to me. Cheers
@@editorjuno
Key point...
"The subject of magnetic material application engineering is way above the pay grade of any "audiophile" gear reviewer."
There's so much ink spilled over the subject but no definitive explanation or conclusion about the magnet type having an effect on sound or not.
Same thing happened with the "revival" of some ultra expensive Field Coil (Electromagnet) drivers from mainly small manufacturers and I've seen a few attempts converting various drivers to Field Coil but again with no definitive conclusion.
Best explanation I heard so far, and which I tend to support, is that because AlNiCo drivers where supposed to be the pinnacle of driver technology of that era manufacturers such as JBL went the extra mile and gave special attention to Quality Control and tight tolerances.
JBL at some point used so tight tolerances that the paper coil former used at some drivers of that era "swell" from humidity causing it to rub on the pole piece.
With today's automated manufacturing processes, ultra accurate CNC machining, materials development and so on I don't see why modern drivers should lack anything sound wise.
Hard to believe English is your first language 🤔
dude you need to change your intro its getting super repetitive. Yes we all all here, because we are subscribe find a new place for that drivel.
Why is it drivel? Yer a prick.