Which Sounds BEST? Concentric/SourcePoint VS Horn VS Standard HiFi Speakers.
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- Опубликовано: 26 сен 2023
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Today I talk about three kinds of speakers. Coaxial/Sourcepoint/Concentric vs Horns vs Standard. Each have a different sound and while there are no wrong choices here, you may prefer one to the other. I talk about my experience with each type of speaker and spill the beans on what I prefer today.
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Spot on! I couldn’t agree more. After a long journey I ended with Tannoy Cheviot driven my Jadis Orchestra Black.
Absolutely mind boggling and continues to improve many weeks after purchase.
Cannot recommend them enough!
Brilliant. My first summer part-time job in college was moving around stereo and recording equipment for J Gordon Holt when he still lived in Wallingford and started Stereophile. I was just "the kid" but I got to meet Edgar Vilchur and Henry Kloss and various musicians in the Phila orchestra who came to him to record their music. Technically the "traditional speaker" I think you are speaking of Edgar Vilchur's "Acoustic Suspension" patents in 1958 followed by addendum patents in 1961. IMHO, it was no accident JBL switched from mass production horns to the likes of the JBL Century100 in 1969. The patents for the enclosed Large Advent and AR's "new" 3A had passed. IMHO2, Much as engineers have been trying to make their tube amps have more qualities of solid-state, or solid-state amps like tube amps, I have looked forward to a some day when live dynasism of horns could be blended with acoustic suspension or single point.
Fantastic and so helpful and informative. Thanks for sharing what is obviously many hours of listening experience, it's much appreciated. I'm using LS50's at the moment with a REL sub. I have aging ears that are showing signs of wear and tear and I bought these speakers so I could listen at lower volumes and get a clean well defined and tight, accurate sound and I'm finding them very effective.
Cocentrics strongly depend on the quality of the power supply of the amplifier and the source! If everything is correct, then three-dimensional sound will be available from any listening angle, mid frequencies will appear, like at a concert. Thank you, I look forward to your review of Daniel Hertz.
Am using a set of Concentric Visaton on a Diyed enclosure and I agree on all the cons how you described how they sound. Really love mine after having numbers of speakers
I have over 20 pairs of speakers.I have been designing/ building speakers for like 30 yrs. I like all types! I Have Klipsch Belle's, Heresy's,JBL 632a club speakers, also i have Little British stand speakers like Rogers LS3 5A's, Celestion SL6's,DL 6's,model 300's,3 prs. of KEF dual concentrics,a pair of vintage JBL C53 Libras,w/ LE 14 c 14" coaxial drivers. I feel that all my fovorite speakers are unique and special in their own way! There is no best speaker!
Best sound I ever heard was a pair of Tannoy Westminster Royals, driven by McIntosh MC 275 tube amps. Effortless, dynamic delivery.
Ohhffff..that’s what dreams are made of…🥃
I couldn't agree more. I heard them with some Gryphon Mephisto's. The realism was something else.
The Ambers and Tannoys have horn treble. Tannoys have a compression driver behind the woofer, the driver exiting into a horn which runs through the woofer pole piece and then exits into the cone which acts as an extension of the horn. This is Tannoy's take off on the Altec 604, the grandfather of coaxial speakers, the 604 (which dates back to the mid 1940s) using a separate radial horn nestled inside the woofer cone. The MoFi uses a direct radiating dome tweeter and is a take off on Harry Olson's RCA LC-1 speaker of the 1950s which used a cone tweeter at the center of a 15" cone. Altec 604s (still in production by Great Plains Audio) and RCA Lc-1s must be heard, they are amazing speakers still after all these years
GREAT REVIEW,NEVER THOUGHT OF WHICH TYPE I LIKE
Great insight! Long ago I owned the Legacy/Real to Reel Classic's, and Ohm Walsh 4 and the Thiel O3A that I enjoyed. Now, I have the Thiel CS2.3's and Legacy HD monitors in my systems.
I have the Fleetwood Deville Sq to my Shindo Masetto pre amp and Montille 391 with Weiss 501 with Luminu2. I love the synergy and vocals are sublime. It’s all about what your ears like and at this point in my life I prefer the sound to be not to high pitched or agressive.
Full range single drivers and open baffle designs are also interesting
Fell in love with Klipsch Forte I speakers with Crites upgrades, went to JBL L100 Classics, now have Klipsch Chorus II with Crites upgrades. Really want to try some point source speakers, may try some Zu's.
The Kef R11 Meta has a coaxial driver with additional bass drivers and that gives you the best of both worlds
Concentric in my opinion offers the best of horns and panel speakers, coherency with great dynamics. Fyne Audio also offers coaxial concentric speakers. They are former Tannoy folks.
I heard Fyne 702s they are bright. I like JBL 4367! La Scalas don't sound right either as no bass makes whole sound lean.
Thank you. I really enjoyed your video.
No one buys horn speakers expecting them to be flat we buy them for the live and open sound stage.
Agreed
Great overview based on deep experience. Does it trigger the idea to complete the overview with open baffle speakers and planar speakers?
I've had bookshelf, horn & planar speakers. Never heard source point speakers. All sound very different. I like them all!
Thanks. Glued to Cornwall 4s and First Watt J2. No fatigue. I have them disappearing in a very small room.
Sibelius review would be interesting.
Hey man, honest comments, the one type of speaker system I heard, about ten years ago ,was a revelation ,, a pair of martin logan electro statics, forget the exact model but they had a sub build in, I've done the looking for the perfect sound with all types of designs, but they really moved my heart, and that's surely what music should do.
I am using JBL 4365 horn speakers; they have the bass slam and dynamic range that traditional speakers do not have. Proper pairing and consideration of room acoustics are paramount and crucial.
I'm a horn guy myself. I can't resist "instantaneous dynamics". I own traditional speakers (Kappa 6) and horns (Klipschorns). Both impress, but for different reasons. If forced to pick one...horns it is. They do have coloration, but I enjoy it.
Thanks for you insight and content after listening to multiple speakers and loving most of them and also a Zu owner nothing on the market like them for live music reproduction .
One of the big advantages of a point source speaker is placement. They maybe large but you can sit very close to them and they are less effected by room boundarys.
Dipoles and cardioids are * more directional, so affected by the room - the least. Google LX521, and Dutch 8c
sure, on a desktop etc. but i still think point source is a gimmick. there is no way you will hear an issue in a 3-4way speaker if its done correctly. also placing a tweeter inside a woofer comes with a new problem of diffraction, dispersion etc.
I grew up listening to my dads Altec Lansing Model 17 speakers and have been looking for something to reproduce that sound since.
Built with a 15” driver and a center mounted horn. They have such a beautiful sound.
I agree that your music tastes has lots to do with what speaker type you prefer. I like differentiating between your taste in music and what you want to hear in your gear.
If you're into coaxial/concentric driver speakers, give the Elipson Planet L's a try. It's an older speaker, but for the price, I think it's quite nice. Keep in mind, the optional stands make a huge difference, to the point I wouldn't call them "optional" (for Hifi Use).
I loved my omnidirectional horn speakers, two way... Duevel
I have all three types , and definitely like Devore fidelity 96 speakers 10” driver and tweeter fantastic speakers
Those tweeters are loaded into a quasi-horn, correct?
I used to think the same about horns too until I heard Blumenhofer acoustics from Germany. Their Big Fun 17 is the most unassuming looking horn speaker ever which on first listen I didnt even realize were horns. They have all the virtues of a horn but none of the drawbacks - they are small, accurate, live sounding, have fantastic bass, tube friendly and you can listen to them all day without fatigue. Do give a listen to Thomas Blumenhofer's creations before you write horns off. Klipsch on the other hand - they have all the downsides of horns and are not a brand I would recommend.
hi, what amplifications do you use to drive them? thanks
Conrad Johnson Premier 11a. They sound wonderful.
As a Zu loudspeaker owner I want to hear that Amber system so bad...it sounded amazing in that clip you played the other day
Altec had quite a range of drivers with a horn used as a phase plus in the centre of the 15" driver. First model came out in 1940 I think. A pair of those - with no cabs can fetch almost £15,000 on ebay. For high frequency, ribbon tweeters sound amazing, I love the asthetic of horns and flares personally and are incredibly responsive
I have had many types of speaker throughout my lifetime. Horns, concentric, and your standard type speaker. I agree that they all have their pros and cons. I've also had both stand-mount as well as floorstanding speakers, but for the last three years I've been the proud owner of a pair of Q Acoustic Concept 500 floorstanders, currently driven by a Cayin Soul 170i tube amplifier, and the sound is simply spellbinding. Please review these speakers as I'm sure, with the right amplification, you'll be as impressed as I am.
I am assuming Concepts are resolving speakers. But the British Audiophile suggested they lacked midrange slam-that is essential to enjoy pop and rock. Any thoughts?
@gokhanersan8561 - not with most tube amplifiers, they don't, especially the Cayin Soul 170i. This is a 75/75 WRMS in triode mode and 135/135 WRMS in ultralinear mode, and the combination is a match made in heaven - the synergy is nigh on perfect, especially with the right tubes. Not that it's all about power, but the 500s really need to be driven by quality power and an amp with a particular voicing. Unfortunately, these amps, whether tube or solid state, are usually always quite expensive. For example, the minimum solid state, I would suggest, would be the Hegel H390. As for tube amplifiers, the voicing can always be changed simply by swapping the tubes, but either way, the 500s scale very well. Have a look at the review from New Record Day on RUclips - done a couple of years ago. I already owned the 500s prior to the review, but I totally concur with what NRD has to say about them.
BTW: A British Audiophile has never reviewed the Concept 500s, although he has reviewed the Concept 300s.
@@tbear2327 I hear ya. They may require a $5000 amp. H590 maybe. I tried to drive my little Dynaudio Emit10 using Hegel H190. Anemic performance with pop and rock. Tried the Emits with Rotel 1592, still lacking midrange slam. Then tried the Rotel a11 tribute, that is voiced differently, and I finally got satisfying midrange slam. Strange.
@gokhanersan8561 - Well, that's sort of what I was getting at. Most people think that you can pair an amplifier with any speakers, and as long as they are both of reasonable quality, you'll instantly achieve nirvana, but it's just not true. From your cartridge, turntable, phono pre-amp, streamer, DAC, CD transport, amplifier, speakers, and yes, even the cables - they all need to compliment each other, just as you found out by using the Rotel a11 with the Emits!
I have K-horns with Crites crossovers, Pair of REL Subs, Mac MC 30s, VPI turntable and Mac C20 preamp. Magical. Several other systems, but nothing better to my ears.
Have you got the prerequisite billiard table to finish out the East wing? And when's my smoker (that's an old word) invitation getting mailed?
Reggae, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
No billiards, but a nice Tornado Foosball table @@TriAmpHiFi
Thank you for sharing
I have to say, same feelings and hearings frim my KEFs as well. Exactly what you're talking about. 3D stage that sometimes I have to turn my head around😂
Adding Concentric Zu Audio speakers to your review portfolio would be greatly appreciated.
It depends on the recording n mastering n type of music with each type speaker it's a moving target never stagnant with these much variables in play
Looks like the Amber is using a Radian coax. As do several home audio designs, such as Coherent Audio and Live Act Audio..
The jublilees and the la scalla are beautiful sounding.
Thanks!
Very similar experience trough a lifetime..........i started with simple FR and I go back to it with quality drivers/LS...........but I still like the speakers I had before ...............just the point sources and some other exceptions have that magic of dissapearing that leaves you with the music in a coherent way gorgetting you listen to reproduced music............same with amplifiers..............Tubes and class A rules above the hypeof a certain kind of Hi-end performance.............just stop analyzing your system and enjoy the music and you may connect to it ..
I favor my pair of custom built L-Cao FA6 Alnico 6" single drivers in Bamboo Tuned Quarter Wave Pipe enclosures for 3D sound. At the port there's a 'low-mass' passive radiator that squelches chuffing distortion. A LRC contour network tames a low Q resonance at 3KHz. Driving them w/ Wavelength Mercury AVVT20 tube monoblocks :)
Funny you said the Cornwalls are lacking in bass. I have some vinrage cornwalls and tge bass is tremendous!
I liked the Dynaco A-25's. Do you know them? From the 70's? And the ESS AMT's
Are you looking for bass reflex speakers? Enjoying your work here. I’ve owned about every kind of speaker made… Electrostatic Horn Source point… I’m looking for a new speaker. I loved my Martin Logans but they are a one listener speaker (one sweet spot). I like rock from REM to Genesis…Steely Dan to Porcupine Tree. I want to feel my bass at all levels of listening. I’m considering two vastly different speakers right now: Magnepan 3.7 and Klipsch Forte IV. I run entry level Pass amp/preamp. 150.8 and 12. What to do? Currently I own: Harbeth P3ESR 40th Anniversary, Zu DW 2, JBL HDI3800 and MAGNEPAN LRS. I listen to the JBLs most of the time but I don’t really love the mids - a tad muddy. The LRS are hard on amps. The Zu are really very nice, and the Harbeth are more for my office desk system.
I'm an avid fan of vintage ADS speakers. Been collecting them for a few years and have yet to come across a model that doesn't impress. They do nearly everything I want and nothing I don't.
Wondering why you haven't added bipoles dipoles and especially omni directional speakers. I've had a pair of Maggie 3.6 R's in my system for over 20 years and they're going to be the last speaker I ever own because they sound so incredible! Any small are revealed showing no mercy to poor quality and ecstasy high quality components and recordings. That's what I look for in a speaker system. And yes, they do need subs.
I had the 1.7R's magic speakers but you need heaps of watts
@@deangale4496 lots and lots of watts
The one style overlooked is Yamaha's NS-5000 with all three drivers made of the same material. Not possible with coaxial designs or horns. Different effect than planars. Even the six digit price speakers mix driver materials.
Every speaker is a compromise , i think the best compromise for the normal size rooms are Audio Note AN E type of speakers ( dynamic , live , coherent , musical ,great bass for the size ...).
Do you prefer you la scalas closer to the corners? Walls? I saw in another one of your videos saying they were meant to be that close.
I’ve got a set of Tannoy mansfield’s 12” powered by Quad 405/2 I’m finding positioning very difficult in a 4m x 3.5m room
I'm right there with ya.
Full range drivers 2.1 setup has something about the imaging that is unique and vocals pop.
I have many speakers to chose from in my collection. I tend to consistently pull out 2 styles. Both with subs added. Magnepan 1.7 for a smooth presentation and late night sessions. And highly modified Klipsch LaScalas for live performances and those times I want the music loud and in my face. At the end of the day the Klipsch are just way too much fun to put away. I also have highly modified Klipsch Chorus 2 that are used for rock music. My next adventure will be full range and or open baffle cone drivers. With the extremely diverse range of music styles I really need a diverse range of equipment.
electrostatic speakers are my favorite,stacked Quad 57s
What are your thoughts on AMT Tweeters vs soft dome tweeter or a metallic tweeter such as aluminium?
Very interesting.
It would be interesting to try and make all of them sound the same thru an EQ 😊
4:00 timeline....strongly suggest take a look at LX521 speakers....🙂
Have you heard Ohm speakers when I heard them I really loved them
I need to get out and listen to some more systems. When I first started looking for real speakers I found a pair of Bozak Concert Grands... I kind of stoped looking as soon as I got them home.
Point source speakers would be interested to try with vinyl playback. But I am not interested in imaging. I feel for my listening, 3-way is fine.
Great analogy 'My audio system is my therapist."
I enjoy horn speakers for cinema because they enhance the experience with powerful, immersive sound, while ribbon tweeters are perfect for music, delivering exceptional clarity and detail.
Sometimes it's better to have more than one flavor. I have two different concentric design speakers (Trenner & Friedl RA and Suns) and a big set of horns that do not sound like horns (Destination Audio Vistas)....
Planar magnetic and ribbon transducer beats all the above
I had a new pair of Klipsch Heresy IV, bought from an authorised dealer. Your comment about coloration with horns seems to ring true, for example Chet Baker's voice did not sound like Chet Baker.
You like concentric, will you like Kef such as the new R3 Meta? Are they a combination of concentric and traditional? Are they the best of both world? Just curious. Thanks for sharing.
KEF META with Subwoofer is magic
What does the horn tweeter have to do with bass SPL?
Horn speakers lacking in the bass? If they're Klipsch Scalas they do. If they're EV Patricians, the bass isn't too bad. 😃
The shoutiness in the midrange does seem to depend on the driver choice and horn design. I've heard constant directivity horns that I can live with.
High efficiency in speakers isn't just about using low powered amps. It's about dynamic freedom combined with clarity and detail retrieval. All of which are lacking in low efficiency slimline ported speakers.
Very realistic speaker!!! Normal people normal speaker and price!😅😅😅
The largest part of the speakers in commerce have an emphasized 80-120 hz range. This gives us the sensation of round and full bass, but it results in a loud but poor bass range. Certain high efficiency woofers not loaded with a typically tuned reflex port can deliver super detailed and natural bass section. Personally I prefer the last option, but it's a matter of choice.
I had a Tannoy Eaton DC... the sound was nice, but when I connected small Telefunken TL500 monitors to my amplifier, the sound was much much better
😊😊😊
So a combination of coaxial with an excellent subwoofer (or two) could be the best ?
Or try a secondhand Tannoy TD10 , 8 or 12 if you have the room…
The number is a reference to the size of the Woofer.😏
The Dynaudio Heritage is a wow speaker. For $7k, it should be!
would be amazing if you review an Omni-directional Loudspeaker, like the ones from MBL
I have Fyne F1-8 speakers, but have been considering MBL 120 speakers. Have you heard them by chance? If so, how does the sound change if it’s omnidirectional from the listener perspective? Do you lose the pinpoint imaging and feel more surrounded by sound, or something totally different? Thanks in advance!
MBL stands far above any other speaker system in the world in my humble opinion. They have to be heard to be believed.
@@stimpy1226
I concur .. I had audio note, Devore and several otyee the r speakers but keep returning to the MBL’s. The only drawback is that they need power.
@@trajan350
I have the MBL 120
Speakers and they are amazing and they can be paired with 50w tube amps if your room size isn’t more than 15 feet long.
Zu Druid V owner...love concentrics.
🎯👏👍🙏❤ I'm a Martin Logan fan.
Seems like concentric designs should sound similar to horn speakers since the woofer cone acts as a horn for the tweeter mounted at the throat of the cone.
MTM configuration is also a point source
I prefer the imaging that coaxial designs give.
The Quad 65 is actually a “concentric” too, full range, one driver. Beautifully coherent but not quite as dynamic. I also have a pair of Kef LSXs that are pleasing. My main system is a 3 way pair and I find the midrange enunciation better than most 2 ways that blend the midrange though the crossover where capacitors and chokes are fighting with phase shift that may distort the music’s focus slightly on terribly. Never played with horns yet. Decent drivers, parts and engineering can make or break any speaker’s format. They all speak differently though and any can great or bla.
The term you're searching for for traditional speakers is "direct radiator" speakers. A horn is not a direct radiator, but the SourcePoint's ARE direct radiators. Its tweeter is set in a waveguide, and radiates directly into the air. It is not mounted inside a compression driver, like Tannoy's. Panel speakers would be yet a 3rd broad category of speakers, which you did not discuss.
Also planar or electrostatic speaker have a different sound then the ones you reviewed. Maybe you can share your experience with those types a well
Best speakers ever Heard Martin Logan CLS and Quad ELS55
I just changed my cables from silver plated copper to silver.
All I hear is transparency.
I like the sound of my AMT tweeters, too.
Which speakers are you using? AMT tweeters seem to be becoming more popular.
@@nc3419
I have a desktop system.
My speakers are the Kanto Tuk.
People would insist that these speakers were bright sounding.
I understand.
After correcting my system with silver, it hits just right.
They also use an aluminum 5.25” driver.
They’re powered speakers.
Bought them used for $600.
I use oil filled RCA cables and speaker wires from Tempo Electric. Power cables are eBay.
Point Source you mean! Genelec The Ones are outstanding! If you listen to the KEF Blades you will see that they have a lot of bass!
Gosh darn! I am openly baffled!!
1:51 Infinite baffle? The co-axials are also infinite baffle of course. No idea really - I would not think there is a specific name for them.
1:58 There is one type missing: full-range, specifically, real full-range that rely on flexing cone membranes.
3:17 Errr... point-source, rather...
5:04 I just realised there is a fourth type: Duevels and the like (they were not the first company to use this effect) which are horn speakers but also omni-directional.
10:30 Actually concentric speakers, and full-range driver speakers for that matter, are horn speakers. It's just that the horn is only applied to the high frequencies (and it's larger than needed for these frequencies) and by virtue of being formed by the midrange driver's cone, which moves, there maybe some Doppler distortion going on there (if that is actually an effect) or some other strange effect going on because of that.
Goldenear triton series❤
Dipole baby😊 foŕ soundstage.
Being a source point does not determine the tonal balance of the sound. If you take a warm and punchy sounding mid-bass driver/cabinet system, adding a tweeter in the mid-bass driver's axis should not change those qualities.
What a bout a point souce ??coming from 1 point ? Tannoys allow the high end reduced ait the xover, for room, adjustment
I've got 29 drivers in my sorce point! :-)
I agree with the characterizations you assign to these types of speakers but I disagree with the attribution based on the physics of the design (somewhat).
Horns having a lack of bass? As I am sure you are aware, speakers which incorporate horn loading usually apply horns to the treble and sometimes midrange. Bass horns are quite uncommon. This means there is added efficiency to the upper end of the sonic spectrum which makes a horn speaker sound bass light because of the design choices and constraints put in place by the designer; efficient bass is expensive (and/or huge). So, horns having light bass is not inherent to them being horns, but it does follow because $$
Ordinary dynamic speakers have more of a midrange hump? Most concentric speakers do not employ an additional woofer section like for example the KEF Q950 etc. I think that this is a marketing tactic to highlight the design choice of using a concentric driver (and why most concentrics are bookshelf style speakers) which means they lack boom. They can be balanced and have great bass extension but yeah, they don’t play as loud and are more ‘delicate’ because of the design decisions and constraints put in place. Put 3x 8” woofers in a tower with a concentric mid/tweet and you will get boom. It’s not because of the inherent character of a concentric design, it’s because of the tradeoffs manufacturers usually make when trying to market.
So yeah….I agree with your generalizations regarding these three types of speakers, but I don’t think it has much to do with the potential of each type of speaker to sound a certain way. The differences are largely choices by designers. You can make a horn sound pinpoint accurate and have deep bass (get a bass horn!). You can make a normal dynamic speaker sound bright or balanced. You can make a point source sound bloated. It is a natural occurrence to fit a price point and design aesthetic that align these types of speakers with the generalizations you attribute to them (don’t blame the speaker; look to the designer/company and their intent)
Also - no mention given to planars or line arrays?
Unity Horn, Multi-Entry Horn.
Great review but horns have moved on a very long way lately.... Try some from this guy in Canada 🍁 Joseph Cowe
Horns are inherently nonlinear as their bandwidths are physically limited to around 3 octaves. And within those bandwidths there are many factors that can cause coloration, such as discontinuities of rate of expansion that are oftentimes deliberate to control dispersion. Thus they are inherently the hardest to design crossover networks for if true high fidelity is the goal. But when actively DSP multiamped with appropriate digital equalization and signal path delays they can become quite magical and transparent while retaining their dynamism. If Klipsch would expand their Heritage line with carefully tailored DSP multiamp modules (a la the Fives, Sevens, Nines?) I think the result would be stunning. My DIY system is basically that and it's utterly beguiling, especially with well recorded symphonic music.
Try the speakers from Pearl Acoustics you will be amazed.. be prepared to throw away your amps though 😂 and get ready to start on another way of enjoining music.
Don’t forget Zu Audio. Thanks
Point source 💯