It's not really settled if all the changes he did are an improvement. The reduction of the midrange may be a good decision, but if the high impedance was from a series notch then Danny may have increased distortion by removing it. Notice that Danny never proves that he does proper blind tests of his modifications. You only trust him because he's a youtuber.
@@rhalfik I've been in his home to hear his NX-Treme speakers and he's done new crossovers for 2 different speakers I own, one of which I was present when he did the work, and the final tweak was a resistor value when listening after. What's your experience with his work, speakers, and watching him design a crossover in person? What he can do to a speaker is transformative, and they are the best speakers I've ever heard.
Erin's audio corner has spin-o-rama data for the 8 and the 10 and he subjectively preferred the 8. Less high frequency lift, though a bit less low end extension. The latter addressed by the towers coming out. I haven't heard but would likely leave be this line of speakers.
Pretty much my foregone conclusion the the eight is going to perform better than the ten. Too much compromise crossing over to the tweeters. I believe that the eight will a sub( a couple of subs) will just sound better in the long run
@@stevengagnon4777I couldn't agree more. The only addition I'd make would be to plug the ports. The point source's bass driver would basically become a midrange driver. A port is designed to extend low frequency output but it does so at the expense of bass quality. When using a sub extension of the main speakers is not important. I'd also stick a suitably valued capacitor between the pre and power amps to roll the bottom off a little more. This cleans up the bass even further.
@@nathanevans6277 I believe I've stuffed all of the ports on all my speakers since I've been doing that for decades. Definitely restrict the power on the bottom end Sotheby's amplifier can have alot more head room above the sub / bass cross over. I have done that in the past too. It really makes a difference at higher volume levels. You don't have that mid bass driver struggling with poor response at the bottom end either. Currently my speakers don't see much more than one watt so I haven't done that with them yet...it's still a work in progress from the ashes of my former life.
This speaker is not needing any more money thrown at it for the very small difference.I have had many Pioneer floorstanding towers from Andrews designs.Weirdly the sf 52 measure 11.0 ohms across its terminals. It had 3 5.25s one a mid the other two 250hz and down,they sold millions of these.Great job here Danny.
I bought these Source Point 8s and my Polk Audio lsim 703 still sound much better to me. So I sent the source points back, now just waiting on TeeJay to finish the Polk xover upgrade. If he recommends it I will 100 percent buy the upgrade. I just know TeeJay will help me with the process. I just haven't done much dyi upgrades. Love what you do Danny Richie
A long time ago when this channel starting getting traction Danny was routinely beating on Klipsch products for the poor crossover parts used. His audience loved to bash Klipsch along with him even though they had obviously never looked at the crossovers in their own speakers. At that time I told people they needed to quit pretending the parts in their favorite speakers were any better even if they paid double or triple the price. Over the years this has been shown to be true over and over not only on this channel but several others. Top quality parts cost money and people already complain about a speaker that costs even $1000 much less 3 to 5 thousand bucks. Getting the crossover design right is far more important than the parts themselves. Combine that with good drivers and solid cabinet construction and you've got a speaker the majority are happy with. At that point crossover parts quality would be little more than the cherry on top of a great speaker. The problem is by the time you get to the point that upgrading crossover parts starts to make the difference you've already got a pricey speaker on your hands. And unless you're a company like Wilson or Focal who can find buyers for their insanely priced speakers then getting enough people to pay for that last fraction of quality they likely don't know or care about is not a viable business option. You give folks as good as you can give them for a profitable but attainable price point and sell in volume. But as I've said to many an arrogant audionerd, if you think you can do better than these manufacturers you love to hate then, by all means, show us what you got. Give us the cabinets, drivers, crossovers and wiring you think should be used for the price points you always pretend manufacturers should be selling their products for. I would say I'll wait but I know they can't do it because I know what the cost of doing business actually happens to be.
Regarding steel parts in the signal path I recently inspected several power amplifiers with a magnet to see what components used steel. I found all the capacitors, resistors and transistors had tinned steel leads. The TO3 power output transistors not only had steel leads but also steel cases. I also inspected a valve power amplifier and found similar results. All the valve pins were steel and the output went through a transformer with a laminated iron core. Are you confused? I certainly am.
Steel cases on t03 are completely irrelevant and are electrically isolated from the signal. You are correct on the leads, inevitable on transistors, but as Danny said, there's definitely room for improvement then in the caps resistors etc. also, keep in mind, steel parts in a speaker matter more because you're talking about low impedance signal transfer vs high impedance like what you have in an amplifier aka current is affected because it's much greater through the speaker so apples to oranges on that point. One complaint I have with amplifiers is how many blindly choose cheap parts because they often use so many. Vishay, KOA Speer resistors etc. and even most caps can be ordered with copper leads (power supply electrolytics etc do NOT matter because that is 60hz mains we are talking about. The answer for amplifiers IMO is to get either well built tube since they generally care more about parts quality or do what I do which is make (or buy) solid state that uses short signal paths and 2 or 3 gain stages tops to preserve detail and coherence. You had an ok point, but you were pointing the finger (mostly) in the wrong direction. I don't always agree with Danny and do think he puts a bit much emphasis on the steel nuts, but he's technically correct regardless about anyone's emotional reaction to it, and even when i disagree with him I won't say he is wrong he just has a different opinion or puts more or less emphasis on something with level of importance than I would.
This video was really something - and I already loved the SourcePoint 8 as it was. Do or can you offer an assembled replacement crossover/board so that "assembly challenged" people such as myself will have a completed circuit that can just be attached to the drivers with the barest minimum of soldering?
I'm not great with a soldering iron. My local electronics repair shop agreed to do all the soldering I needed for 50 bucks. A rewire & Tube Connector's mod. EPOS Epic 2's...Sadly, I learned the EPOS crossover's were the same 25.00 ones in this video. To say they all do it is an understatement. The Epic 2's were msrp 800 pair. 25.00 crossover's. They do sound better but the real bottleneck is the crossover itself. When I'm ready to part with them it will be a kit from Danny to replace them. Me too...couple of speaker leads is all I'm capable of. Danny's reasonable. Completed crossover is probably doable with an up charge. Otherwise do a local repair shop. Take care.
Another great upgrade video from Danny. It looks like Andrew Jones did a great job as usual. If he had built the crossover to the standard of the GR Research upgrade it would have doubled the price of the speaker. This makes Danny's upgrade a steal. If I owned these I would definitely plug the ports and stick a suitably valued capacitor between the pre and power amps to roll off the bottom end. I'd then hand bass duties over to a pair of decent subs. Ports are always a trade off between bass extensions and bass articulation. Plugging the ports would clean up the mid-bass no end. Let the subs do the heavy lifting.
Not shure if plugging the ports would be a good idea, a closed box might increase the cone travel. The advantage of port is that the air in it also act as a "anti resonator" and keeps the cone travel down, same with passive radiator. Yes the extra bass level do come from the air, (or a passive r.) but the main sp.element will be a better "horn" for the tweeter with less cone travel. A crossover between pre out, and main in, or in the separate subbs are the most important point of course. But you will get there😊
@@kjellrogerjgensen60 All very true. The addition of a capacitor between the pre and power amps will add an extra 6dB per octave roll off. This will limit cone movement below where the speaker is naturally rolling off.
@@nathanevans6277My sub with built in amp. have variable low and hipas crossovers so i can continue to main in on the amp for the sidesystems. I think that is the normal solution in active subs, and also sub amps you can get to for DIY.
I feel sorry for you if you think plugging one port will improve anything. In fact, it will do the opposite of what you think. That double ports is a very careful and deliberate design, altering it will only make it worse.
@@simplereef4854 I feel sorry for you that you know so little about speaker design if that is what you really think. I was suggesting plugging all ports, not just one if there are multiple ports. Plugging a single in a twin port design will increase the tuning frequency and would likely induce chuffing. So I agree, not likely to be good. I was not suggesting plugging the ports in isolation. I was suggesting to only do so when a subwoofer is added to the system. Plugging all ports will change the speaker from being ported to being an acoustic suspension. For the same driver in the same size cabinet an acoustic suspension design will have a lower Q than when ported. This is why ported speakers are generally larger with the same driver. Lowering the Q will result in a cleaner tighter bottom end but with less weight. As I was suggesting handing bass duties over to a subwoofer this is not an issue. Plugging the ports and sticking a suitably valued capacitor between the pre and power amps will result in a cleaner more resolving midbass and midrange.
I thought the point of the speaker was that it sounded fun and not really accurate. I did notice when demoing these that they did not have much "sparkle". I am glad there is a fix for this and improving the impedance curve making it synergise with more amps.
It must sound so much better with the upgrade parts on the crossover, it's to bad people have to pay so much money and still get a sub par product. I watched an interview with Andrew Jones and he said he had to limit the x max on the woofer because it was messing with the tweeter response to much. So he couldn't get as much bass and that's why he originally went to the 10" woofer. But I wouldn't expect it to give you the same bass as a regular quality woofer with more x- max . There's always a compromise. But I like the baffle, I am already planning a baffle shape like that on my next speaker cabinet.
My opinion, same coax is moving in and out wave guide. I see a nice spot for tweeter, and plenty of space to mount an a amp and dac, xover for the expence.
Why couldn’t they move the center tweeter slightly forward closer to the edge of the speaker cone and then slightly delay the signal response to time align it with the woofer such that the cone movement wouldn’t affect the tweeter response?
Really? So you’re saying the ringing wouldn’t be in the measurement if the test signal was a sine sweep, but would be there if broad band noise was used?
@@mattholland315 the doppler effect increase if bass is present, I mean music, coaxial is only worthy if the woofer is cut above 600 hz the the doppler is minor but that need a 3 way design like the upper model Dany mention in the video
I have to say anyone can pay a munch of money for expensive components. The true talent comes from the design making the most of the components they do have.
That's true. In this case though, just a little more could have been spent on better components and these could have been brought up a few notches pretty easily.
I totally agree!!! You really hit it by pointing out money can pay expensive components, but I've yet to see Danny's offerings that are worth considering at this value proposition (that are made complete and are plug and play).
@dannyrichie9743 Thanks, I don't doubt that you believe in your own creation, but selling these component upgrades in your youtube videos says otherwise.
@@jianboo Ha, we do these upgrades as a service to help those that purchased speakers that don't sound as good as they felt they should have. Typically because they are loaded with garbage on the inside. Try checking out Ron's (from New record Day) review of the Mofi 10 and have a listen to the sound clips. Then compare those sound clips with the same sound clips that he made from any of our speakers. Even in the sound clips of a compressed RUclips file the superiority of our designs easily can be heard.
I wonder if a coaxial speaker made with a flat or dome shaped cone would be better, eliminating the moving waveguide aspect. I have seen the ones that have the little cone on the tweeter itself to be the actual waveguide. That's one way to get around the issue I suppose.
It's good that we have such a consistently good speaker designer as Andrew Jones. Has he ever put out a mediocre speaker? They all seem to be good. I am also a fan of Michael Kelly who is the owner and designer of Aerial Acoustics. His model 10 from the 1990s when the company was new, is still considered by some as among the best speakers of all time. What good parts quality crossovers they used.It's first review was in a great short lived audio review magazine called simply, FI. The magazines owner/editor/reviewer was another Michael K. Michael Kay to be exact. In around the 4th or 5th issue Michael Kay admitted that he had serious hearing loss in one ear, but he had other reviewers confirm or non-confirm his impressions. I really miss that magazine. They sent out free issues of their new magazine for many months, whose names & addresses they must have gotten from buying a mailing list from somewhere. Maybe another magazine. I enjoy the videos. Maybe some day Danny will be flabbergasted at how good the parts are in something.
Wish I was closer (shipping costs), I have a pair of quite rare Posselt speakers and I'm really curious of how they measure. The downside of these transformations is that every speaker seems to be awfully made. Would love to hear mine upgraded.
Ha! I just heard these yesterday at T.H.E. Show in Costa Mesa. I almost immediately heard what is going on at 3K. They were driving them with a cheap Pioneer receiver, so I thought that was causing the problems, but what Danny points out here is probably more of what I was hearing. All I know, is the sounded a bit harsh and glassy. Not what I was expecting. And I also heard the lack of soundstage detail and layering. My friend and I made the exact same comments when we left the room.
No, the new parts (as seen on the table) are much too large to fit back onto the original PCB, which is also mounted to the rear binding post cup. you will need to mount the crossover onto a couple boards and fit them between the braces on the floor of the speaker.
Can't believe you pulled out another 25.00 crossover out of another not cheap speaker. Keep remembering that 4k Revel bookshelf you exposed awhile back. Thanks' again for clearing up all the undue hype behind this speaker. I can guarantee his crossover's in his living room system are not those 25.00 ones. That is what sucks about this. Your the best Danny TY.
If you add the cost of Danny's crossover parts you have a much more expensive speaker. You are not going to get it for free. These speakers are designed at a price point to make enough profit to keep building them, otherwise they would not build them in the first place.
@@bunjidogg Those were some amazing reviews of those 25.00 crossovers. That tells me all I need to know about so called expert reviewer's. We had to put some cheap shit in them to be competitive in the speaker market doesn't fly with me and frankly I'm surprised it does with you. With all due respect. Offer crossover options then. problem solved.
@@lexicon612 or maybe it tells you that the whole "parts quality" thing is marginal at best in any improvements it can bring. simple electric circuits, not magic. the parts shape the frequency response curve, they don't magically make your sine waves sound better.
Dude, he’s adding $680 to cost of the speaker. In any company, you need to triple the cost to recover it. So that alone adds $2K to the cost of the speaker.
People whining about the price 1) don’t need to buy them and 2) don’t realize that you aren’t paying for a pile of parts. You are paying for the engineering, design and experience of the designer. Mofi also needs to make a profit and factor in returns, unsold stock, etc. Their manufacturer likely has a (large) minumum order. It is a business, not a charity. Overall it seems to be a well-designed speaker with a somewhat novel baffled design that sounds good. The upgraded parts will be of interest to some but others will be happy with the way they sound. Even at this price point it will be difficult to find a commercially available loudspeaker with absolutely no compromises. But people like to whine, especially arm chair audiphiles who have never even heard the speakers in person.
Agreed. Danny would have Vincent Van Gogh rummaging through the shops in Paris looking for the “best” oil paints instead of being outside actually painting.
Would be interesting to see on a Scope what influence IRON has over current on a signal! And how much it changes when a static magnetic flux is applied , up to saturation of the iron!
There’s nothing funny about it at all. Sold engineering at appropriate costs. The gains from Danny’s upgrade had he not tweaked the response would be very very subtle. Erin measured this speaker and it did not display failings you could point towards the crossover.
We've had a 23 foot long anechoic chamber. I can measure down to 200Hz using a gated time window, outside of the anechoic chamber, and get the exact same results.
Danny As I grow older the need to listen to speakers direct is less and leans more on the theory of light and rear projection just like Alan Blumlein intended when he invented Stereo circa 1929. Is it possible Americans were so hooked on mono they missed the rear projection concept let me know if you are familiar.
When I studied 1933 archives the goal was to replicate a " Life Size" Image they redeveloped new microphones and speakers to meet that target and remember he got the Idea in a movie theater!! The math in his notes point towards speakers angled to produce a mirror Image from reverse just like light from the front in fact the vectors in the formulas are light based When all is right you get the direction of the piano keys and the singer around 5-6 feet high and most instruments 3-4 feet a true Analogue I'm not referring to Vinyl but the true definition of the word.
The cross over kit I got from Danny for my SVS towers are absolutely amazing, but it took two years for me for them to sound there very best considering I was told it takes 500 hours for everything to break in. Yep, it really did take that long, before that they just sounded plan before the OMG happened. The speakers unreal and better then my friends B&W 700 series towers. No joke they fill the room so much better, it just took a long, long time for them to get to this point. It’s actually hard to explain how good they actually sound unless ur able to experience it. Thx Danny! Wow
500 hours of break in? What if I told you it was 50? How do you know who's right?How long until it just breaks? Why doesn't break in continue past 500? At want point are they just worn out?
Doesn’t matter what you think lol… All I can say is it took a very long time for them to sound 3 dimensional with a beautiful soundstage. You have no clue the amount of caps that go into this so ur really talking out ur ass, u sound like a snowflake lol. I can hear one coming a mile away! 😂
Like one of my audiophiles friend says: why reputable designers and companies don’t offer upgrades? For him having Danny go through their design and rip it off doesn’t make any sense when they can easily offer 2 different iterations of the same design and leave people with the choice. I agree.
I am not ripping it off. We are just servicing our customers. You are correct though in that they could offer a higher quality version of it. We do that with most of our DIY kits. We have a budget level version and upgrade options.
Probably it's a way of admitting the standard version is built to a price point versus the promise of marketing hyperbole? Having said that, I agree full heartedly, it would be the pragmatic way of going about it, not to mention if crossovers were external or somehow plug-in, which is technically speaking highly feasible, it would allow people to get their dream speaker at its entry level price and save up for the upgrade as an option, without having to rip out drivers and unsolder and re-solder parts etc., which is probably not everyone's cup of tea.
They dont do uppgrades, for some reason, but it is good for Danny. Maybe they dont trust their customers to uppgrade filters instead of bying new more expensive speakers with new bad filters instead. Its a question about educating your customers instead of exploiting their lack of knowledge. And most of the brands seems to have chosen the last option. But at wery high pricepoints the priority are leaning the other way. So Danny are making gold out of grey rock. All honour to him for that. I hope they dont hate him for that. Car manufacturers does not mind if cars are being modifyed, or improved as far as i know, only in som countryes, but that is from safety and tax reasons...
CSS offers that kind of service, at least for their DIY speaker kits. They offer multiple tiers of crossover components, though I think they're all the same basic configuration, just a difference in quality.
@@dannyrichie9743 Exactly. Figure out how they tuned it by reverse-engineering the existing crossover, determine if that is optimal for the desired tuning, then replace or add components in a higher quality to ensure better performance, more consistency, and better longevity.
Small wave guide for the tweeter? Or will that fix one problem and create a worse problem? Really is there a win, win solution to eliminate the woofer cone as a wave guide. I always thought thst the moving wave guide (woofer) would create some problems . Perhaps the shape near the tweeter thought is not right or could be tweaked to minimize the effects. This can only be addressed in the design and development phase of manufacturing. Thr art of manufacturing speakers is certainly addressing the the trade offs and pit falls to achieve a pleasant sound.
The main issue is the voice coil former for the woofer sticks out 1-2mm above the tweeter's mount. Trimming the former back to just behind the tweeter mount would help a lot, as pushing the woofer back to push the former down helped to smooth out the response quite a bit. Adding another/separate waveguide could work, but it would likely cause issues for the woofer, especially at higher volumes, or it could also make the tweeter response worse as well. (see the SoundArtist SB8C)
@@hoth2112 glad to hear a reply. It does seem like a little refinement at the voice coil former and adjacent area could go a long way. As I suspected a separate wave guide will not be easy to implement and still cuase worse problems. The moving cone of the woofer has been one of my concerns along with the actual shape of the cones. I believe that the shape ideal as wave guide for the tweeter may conflict with the ideal shape for the woofer.
Those parts are sad. I have a pair of Elac Adante stand mounts and the crossover parts are much better for less money. Guess the profit margins at MOFI need to be much higher. Still like Andrew Jones speakers though.
Phase shift is definitely among the most misunderstood aspects of speaker design. I just deleted about an hour of writing. It's beyond the scope of this comments section. I was once tasked to teach a co-worker how to handle a certain tool. It took me all of 5 minutes to demonstrate it's use. But it took me nearly an entire day to explain all the things one has to consider in order to use that tool properly and safely. In the end, he reported to my boss that, "he made it look too easy". Danny, you make driver phase management look too easy.
Steve's rather 'loud' silence on the source point 10s is rather interesting to me. He didn't even give them an honorable mention at the end of '23. Anyone else notice this?
I'm glad such videos exist to realise how much a speaker is overpriced, all Hi-Fi is speculative, prices of products such as these jump in the thousands: 999$, 1,999$, 2,999$ to mount polyester capacitors and ferric binding posts. Making this speaker costs so much less than the asking price.
the person who sent the speaker to Danny is currently having them built and installed. so no, no one has listened to them yet. We never do the installation work in-house, just the crossover design work.
@@DannyRichie-uc8sw Ah i understand, Thank you. Does that mean this kit was developed without being listened to? Curious cus I'm considering doing this upgrade in the future
Well you don’t need to upgrade anything, only enjoy the music. BUT if you want to take it to next level, then a upgrade on the crossover will give you a musical moment. These speakers are built to a price point.
I'm sure it and the 10" version are nice, but I inherently distrust 2-way designs that claim to be full-range. There's just no way you're getting deep bass and clean mids at the same time. Compromises will be made. If you don't like a lot of bass then it may be an acceptable compromise, but I love bass, so I'll stick to proper 3-way designs.
19:38 What the hell is an "impedance trap"? Lol I thought I'd heard most lingo when it comes to speakers, their design and components, but obviously not!
Looks like just a notch filter where the resistor value was chosen to define the load impedance. It’s in parallel with the actual crossover so it doesn’t change the output of the drivers but lowers the impedance in a narrow freq band
Any type of amplifier using an output transformer, which is true of most tube amplifiers, will "mimic" and thus skew the frequency response (with the exception of some superlative and costly designs that I doubt anyone would use with this speakers) - and no, that's not a flaw of the amplifier. So even if one didn't do the crossover upgrade on this speaker, but used it with a tube amplifier (it's fairly low in sensitivity, would need to be a reasonably powerful one), using this LCR in parallel with the speaker (across the binding posts of either the speaker or the amp) would audibly improve sound quality, and the loss in energy is negligible.
@@LeonFleisherFan what do you mean by mimic ? Are you talking about the higher output impedance of tube amps (more commonly referred by the damping factor) ? If anything having a higher output impedance is a downside when it comes to this notch filter
@@dominicdiclemente8877I wish I could upload measurements to demonstrate, but you'll find ones googling the subject: what happens is when a transformer "sees" a flat impedance, the frequency response will be flat, but when it "sees" variation, this variation will be reflected in the frequency response. Not to the full extent in percent, but up to a few decibels depending on the impedance (and related electric phase) swings.
Wanted those back when they were on sale. Pretty sure those aren’t designed by Andrew Jones. Would imagine the crossover at the price would have cheaper parts and could be improved.
The cabinet, and the driver probably takes just as much to design a good coaxial motor system. Otherwise it's the same old thing, there's markup everywhere
@@morlidor lol try again. Replace one sand cast resistor on a tweeter and tell me you didn't hear an immediate difference. Until you do that you can't state that it makes no difference.
tbh i expected more from that speaker for that price. my old elac dfr52 models, andrew jones, were incredibly well braced but the parts were identical to those and the dfr sold for 1.2k more or less. that speaker is over priced imho. yes it has molded baffles but its a simple box with one hole in it and a couple ports.. always amazed to see reviewers gushing over every andrew jones design and then you take a look and its just average. i am certain those upgrades will be impressive ntl.
the end price might not be only with parts and work, if it sound too good for the price they intended. they increase the price. they wont a good speaker at a cheap price.
My references are ultra high performance and the sourcepoint was unbearable to listen to compared to a full synergy designed and built ultra high performance setup. I could not settle for the vast limitations that were clearly audible when I listened to them. I would never affiliate my name to less than par excellence minimum under any circumstances
I guess Danny will be too busy to make videos anymore soon as surely he will be scooped up by one of the big guys to sort out all their dodgy designs now that we all know he can improve upon Andrew Jones designs.......
..If A.J. design those Speakers I find it heard to believe that it would need better parts That Danny Claims it needes,I I don't think they would skimp on parts like that ..Id like to here what A.J. would say about it.A very taleted speaker designer.!...Wheres the scientific audiophile when we need him !
@@morlidor my background, applications, and inventions in advanced materials, electronics, and applied sciences especially in regards to ultra high end reproduction of audio and complex signals analysis says while a total aspect view and approach is required for ultra high end reproduction, a truly proper crossover is of EXTREME IMPORTANCE in the total mix
@@morlidorthen you haven’t been able to listen to a Danny upgraded speaker or just an upgraded other speaker with better parts. Even I who have tinnitus can hear it.
@@morlidorJa! Klarare och tydligare. More clear and better focus on notes. My old Pioneers did wake up from hibernation after a total crossover update. Only new Jantzen parts.
Excellent work by Andrew Jones again and a great improvement by Danny. Is that 3 videos this wee? What a great week it's been.
Just talked to Andrew Jones a couple of hours ago here in Costs Mesa. Small world. I like his design views.
It's not really settled if all the changes he did are an improvement. The reduction of the midrange may be a good decision, but if the high impedance was from a series notch then Danny may have increased distortion by removing it. Notice that Danny never proves that he does proper blind tests of his modifications. You only trust him because he's a youtuber.
@@rhalfik I trust him because of his experience not because he’s a RUclipsr that’s no qualification at all
@@rhalfik I've been in his home to hear his NX-Treme speakers and he's done new crossovers for 2 different speakers I own, one of which I was present when he did the work, and the final tweak was a resistor value when listening after. What's your experience with his work, speakers, and watching him design a crossover in person?
What he can do to a speaker is transformative, and they are the best speakers I've ever heard.
Erin's audio corner has spin-o-rama data for the 8 and the 10 and he subjectively preferred the 8. Less high frequency lift, though a bit less low end extension. The latter addressed by the towers coming out. I haven't heard but would likely leave be this line of speakers.
Pretty much my foregone conclusion the the eight is going to perform better than the ten. Too much compromise crossing over to the tweeters. I believe that the eight will a sub( a couple of subs) will just sound better in the long run
@@stevengagnon4777I couldn't agree more.
The only addition I'd make would be to plug the ports. The point source's bass driver would basically become a midrange driver. A port is designed to extend low frequency output but it does so at the expense of bass quality. When using a sub extension of the main speakers is not important.
I'd also stick a suitably valued capacitor between the pre and power amps to roll the bottom off a little more. This cleans up the bass even further.
@@nathanevans6277 I believe I've stuffed all of the ports on all my speakers since I've been doing that for decades. Definitely restrict the power on the bottom end Sotheby's amplifier can have alot more head room above the sub / bass cross over. I have done that in the past too. It really makes a difference at higher volume levels. You don't have that mid bass driver struggling with poor response at the bottom end either. Currently my speakers don't see much more than one watt so I haven't done that with them yet...it's still a work in progress from the ashes of my former life.
Very educational. Thank you, Danny.
Amazing transformation on an already good design. Danny to the rescue!
The impedance mod is a thing of beauty.
Wouldn’t it wonderful to both of them In the same room!
This speaker is not needing any more money thrown at it for the very small difference.I have had many Pioneer floorstanding towers from Andrews designs.Weirdly the sf 52 measure 11.0 ohms across its terminals. It had 3 5.25s one a mid the other two 250hz and down,they sold millions of these.Great job here Danny.
I bought these Source Point 8s and my Polk Audio lsim 703 still sound much better to me. So I sent the source points back, now just waiting on TeeJay to finish the Polk xover upgrade. If he recommends it I will 100 percent buy the upgrade. I just know TeeJay will help me with the process. I just haven't done much dyi upgrades. Love what you do Danny Richie
A long time ago when this channel starting getting traction Danny was routinely beating on Klipsch products for the poor crossover parts used. His audience loved to bash Klipsch along with him even though they had obviously never looked at the crossovers in their own speakers. At that time I told people they needed to quit pretending the parts in their favorite speakers were any better even if they paid double or triple the price. Over the years this has been shown to be true over and over not only on this channel but several others. Top quality parts cost money and people already complain about a speaker that costs even $1000 much less 3 to 5 thousand bucks. Getting the crossover design right is far more important than the parts themselves. Combine that with good drivers and solid cabinet construction and you've got a speaker the majority are happy with. At that point crossover parts quality would be little more than the cherry on top of a great speaker. The problem is by the time you get to the point that upgrading crossover parts starts to make the difference you've already got a pricey speaker on your hands. And unless you're a company like Wilson or Focal who can find buyers for their insanely priced speakers then getting enough people to pay for that last fraction of quality they likely don't know or care about is not a viable business option. You give folks as good as you can give them for a profitable but attainable price point and sell in volume. But as I've said to many an arrogant audionerd, if you think you can do better than these manufacturers you love to hate then, by all means, show us what you got. Give us the cabinets, drivers, crossovers and wiring you think should be used for the price points you always pretend manufacturers should be selling their products for. I would say I'll wait but I know they can't do it because I know what the cost of doing business actually happens to be.
I couldn't click on this video fast enough!
I am not watching most of this channels content. But this one was indeed decided in a second 😂
i am suprised , expected better parts. Thank you.
Well, he did say it was built to a price point.
I'll say, the Sonicaps and No-rez, turned my Pedest'ale Tower speakers into instant Heirloom speakers. Excellent vid
still kicking myself for not getting those!
@@veroman007 you and me both.
I used his Dynaudio Special 40 kits and wow, what a revelation. Bough the Magnepan 1.7 kit too but unable to install it so far.
Great video as always. Got to get my butt in gear and send my Monitor Audio Bronze 100 and see what they need
What reference tracks are there for this ringing 🫣
Regarding steel parts in the signal path I recently inspected several power amplifiers with a magnet to see what components used steel. I found all the capacitors, resistors and transistors had tinned steel leads. The TO3 power output transistors not only had steel leads but also steel cases. I also inspected a valve power amplifier and found similar results. All the valve pins were steel and the output went through a transformer with a laminated iron core. Are you confused? I certainly am.
Sounds like a lot of areas for improvement.
Some brands are replacing steel part, among them som crasy exp. Danish speakers....
I prefer paper in oil amps, very smooth round next level sound.
The steel claims are snake oil. Really nothing to worry about. It was proven on ASR. Can’t find the link sorry.
Steel cases on t03 are completely irrelevant and are electrically isolated from the signal. You are correct on the leads, inevitable on transistors, but as Danny said, there's definitely room for improvement then in the caps resistors etc. also, keep in mind, steel parts in a speaker matter more because you're talking about low impedance signal transfer vs high impedance like what you have in an amplifier aka current is affected because it's much greater through the speaker so apples to oranges on that point.
One complaint I have with amplifiers is how many blindly choose cheap parts because they often use so many. Vishay, KOA Speer resistors etc. and even most caps can be ordered with copper leads (power supply electrolytics etc do NOT matter because that is 60hz mains we are talking about. The answer for amplifiers IMO is to get either well built tube since they generally care more about parts quality or do what I do which is make (or buy) solid state that uses short signal paths and 2 or 3 gain stages tops to preserve detail and coherence.
You had an ok point, but you were pointing the finger (mostly) in the wrong direction.
I don't always agree with Danny and do think he puts a bit much emphasis on the steel nuts, but he's technically correct regardless about anyone's emotional reaction to it, and even when i disagree with him I won't say he is wrong he just has a different opinion or puts more or less emphasis on something with level of importance than I would.
Have you looked at the Volti speakers and if so what do you think?
This video was really something - and I already loved the SourcePoint 8 as it was. Do or can you offer an assembled replacement crossover/board so that "assembly challenged" people such as myself will have a completed circuit that can just be attached to the drivers with the barest minimum of soldering?
I'm not great with a soldering iron. My local electronics repair shop agreed to do all the soldering I needed for 50 bucks. A rewire & Tube Connector's mod. EPOS Epic 2's...Sadly, I learned the EPOS crossover's were the same 25.00 ones in this video. To say they all do it is an understatement. The Epic 2's were msrp 800 pair. 25.00 crossover's. They do sound better but the real bottleneck is the crossover itself. When I'm ready to part with them it will be a kit from Danny to replace them. Me too...couple of speaker leads is all I'm capable of. Danny's reasonable. Completed crossover is probably doable with an up charge. Otherwise do a local repair shop. Take care.
Another great upgrade video from Danny.
It looks like Andrew Jones did a great job as usual. If he had built the crossover to the standard of the GR Research upgrade it would have doubled the price of the speaker. This makes Danny's upgrade a steal.
If I owned these I would definitely plug the ports and stick a suitably valued capacitor between the pre and power amps to roll off the bottom end. I'd then hand bass duties over to a pair of decent subs.
Ports are always a trade off between bass extensions and bass articulation. Plugging the ports would clean up the mid-bass no end. Let the subs do the heavy lifting.
Not shure if plugging the ports would be a good idea, a closed box might increase the cone travel. The advantage of port is that the air in it also act as a "anti resonator" and keeps the cone travel down, same with passive radiator. Yes the extra bass level do come from the air, (or a passive r.) but the main sp.element will be a better "horn" for the tweeter with less cone travel.
A crossover between pre out, and main in, or in the separate subbs are the most important point of course.
But you will get there😊
@@kjellrogerjgensen60 All very true.
The addition of a capacitor between the pre and power amps will add an extra 6dB per octave roll off. This will limit cone movement below where the speaker is naturally rolling off.
@@nathanevans6277My sub with built in amp. have variable low and hipas crossovers so i can continue to main in on the amp for the sidesystems. I think that is the normal solution in active subs, and also sub amps you can get to for DIY.
I feel sorry for you if you think plugging one port will improve anything. In fact, it will do the opposite of what you think. That double ports is a very careful and deliberate design, altering it will only make it worse.
@@simplereef4854 I feel sorry for you that you know so little about speaker design if that is what you really think.
I was suggesting plugging all ports, not just one if there are multiple ports. Plugging a single in a twin port design will increase the tuning frequency and would likely induce chuffing. So I agree, not likely to be good.
I was not suggesting plugging the ports in isolation. I was suggesting to only do so when a subwoofer is added to the system. Plugging all ports will change the speaker from being ported to being an acoustic suspension. For the same driver in the same size cabinet an acoustic suspension design will have a lower Q than when ported. This is why ported speakers are generally larger with the same driver. Lowering the Q will result in a cleaner tighter bottom end but with less weight. As I was suggesting handing bass duties over to a subwoofer this is not an issue. Plugging the ports and sticking a suitably valued capacitor between the pre and power amps will result in a cleaner more resolving midbass and midrange.
I thought the point of the speaker was that it sounded fun and not really accurate. I did notice when demoing these that they did not have much "sparkle". I am glad there is a fix for this and improving the impedance curve making it synergise with more amps.
It must sound so much better with the upgrade parts on the crossover, it's to bad people have to pay so much money and still get a sub par product. I watched an interview with Andrew Jones and he said he had to limit the x max on the woofer because it was messing with the tweeter response to much. So he couldn't get as much bass and that's why he originally went to the 10" woofer. But I wouldn't expect it to give you the same bass as a regular quality woofer with more x- max . There's always a compromise. But I like the baffle, I am already planning a baffle shape like that on my next speaker cabinet.
After watching quite a few of these show&tell videos, it looks like cheesy xover parts ARE "par for the course" even for high end speakers 🙄
To
Too
Two
Three, different words.
@@n.lyndley.9889 thanks mom
@@n.lyndley.9889
Yeah I was also tempted to be the grammar police.
Nice job.
Stay tuned.
RUclips comments will be a full time job!
the baffle makes it look huge even with just the 8"
My opinion, same coax is moving in and out wave guide. I see a nice spot for tweeter, and plenty of space to mount an a amp and dac, xover for the expence.
Why couldn’t they move the center tweeter slightly forward closer to the edge of the speaker cone and then slightly delay the signal response to time align it with the woofer such that the cone movement wouldn’t affect the tweeter response?
Two ways to time align.
Analogue: physically move the driver.
Digital: independent delay of frequency band.
The 888 upgrade should be interesting....
That impedance curve was scary!
Some amp owners might just want the "impedance trap" as a kit....
You would think that Jones would have seen that in his testing and fixed it.
That narrow ringing is the Doppler effect on coaxial speakers
Really? So you’re saying the ringing wouldn’t be in the measurement if the test signal was a sine sweep, but would be there if broad band noise was used?
@@mattholland315 the doppler effect increase if bass is present, I mean music, coaxial is only worthy if the woofer is cut above 600 hz the the doppler is minor but that need a 3 way design like the upper model Dany mention in the video
I didn't see an upgrade video for the SourcePoint 10s. Would they use the same upgrade kit?
I have not looked at that model yet. Maybe someone will send one in.
Daniel is on fire this week another incredible job done.
What job? Overprized upgrade 😅😅😅😅
@@thomasschafer7268overprized ?
I have to say anyone can pay a munch of money for expensive components. The true talent comes from the design making the most of the components they do have.
That's true. In this case though, just a little more could have been spent on better components and these could have been brought up a few notches pretty easily.
I totally agree!!! You really hit it by pointing out money can pay expensive components, but I've yet to see Danny's offerings that are worth considering at this value proposition (that are made complete and are plug and play).
@@jianboo Are you kidding me? These are easily surpassed by just about everything we offer, especially models in our X-Series and up (not even close).
@dannyrichie9743 Thanks, I don't doubt that you believe in your own creation, but selling these component upgrades in your youtube videos says otherwise.
@@jianboo Ha, we do these upgrades as a service to help those that purchased speakers that don't sound as good as they felt they should have. Typically because they are loaded with garbage on the inside.
Try checking out Ron's (from New record Day) review of the Mofi 10 and have a listen to the sound clips. Then compare those sound clips with the same sound clips that he made from any of our speakers. Even in the sound clips of a compressed RUclips file the superiority of our designs easily can be heard.
I wonder if a coaxial speaker made with a flat or dome shaped cone would be better, eliminating the moving waveguide aspect.
I have seen the ones that have the little cone on the tweeter itself to be the actual waveguide. That's one way to get around the issue I suppose.
Nah, then you'd just have a moving baffle which would likely be worse.
Thiel 3.7 designed driver with wave membrane but flat surface so tweeter not in a wave guide.
It's good that we have such a consistently good speaker designer as Andrew Jones. Has he ever put out a mediocre speaker? They all seem to be good. I am also a fan of Michael Kelly who is the owner and designer of Aerial Acoustics. His model 10 from the 1990s when the company was new, is still considered by some as among the best speakers of all time. What good parts quality crossovers they used.It's first review was in a great short lived audio review magazine called simply, FI. The magazines owner/editor/reviewer was another Michael K. Michael Kay to be exact. In around the 4th or 5th issue Michael Kay admitted that he had serious hearing loss in one ear, but he had other reviewers confirm or non-confirm his impressions. I really miss that magazine. They sent out free issues of their new magazine for many months, whose names & addresses they must have gotten from buying a mailing list from somewhere. Maybe another magazine. I enjoy the videos. Maybe some day Danny will be flabbergasted at how good the parts are in something.
I had the opportunity to take a brief look inside the Source Point 10. The crossover looked very similar to the 8’s parts-wise.
This is a big one.
Hi Danny.. Do you also provide the new boards for the larger XO parts with layout instructions? Plus, Assembly instructions inside the cab?
It does not come with a board to mount the parts on.
new boards are not provided, you will need to figure out the layout and mounting.
@@dannyrichie9743is there an extra DannyRichie-uc8sw that answer the comments?
Wish I was closer (shipping costs), I have a pair of quite rare Posselt speakers and I'm really curious of how they measure. The downside of these transformations is that every speaker seems to be awfully made. Would love to hear mine upgraded.
Ha!
I just heard these yesterday at T.H.E. Show in Costa Mesa.
I almost immediately heard what is going on at 3K. They were driving them with a cheap Pioneer receiver, so I thought that was causing the problems, but what Danny points out here is probably more of what I was hearing.
All I know, is the sounded a bit harsh and glassy. Not what I was expecting. And I also heard the lack of soundstage detail and layering. My friend and I made the exact same comments when we left the room.
How does the glass sound?
I need one of those t-shirts for my lady!
Will there be an upgrade available for the 10s?
If someone sends one in then I will have a look at it.
Does the upgrade reuse the stock crossover PCB?
No, the new parts (as seen on the table) are much too large to fit back onto the original PCB, which is also mounted to the rear binding post cup. you will need to mount the crossover onto a couple boards and fit them between the braces on the floor of the speaker.
I’m surprised they didn’t bother to radius the rear edge of the woofer opening.
Can't believe you pulled out another 25.00 crossover out of another not cheap speaker. Keep remembering that 4k Revel bookshelf you exposed awhile back. Thanks' again for clearing up all the undue hype behind this speaker. I can guarantee his crossover's in his living room system are not those 25.00 ones. That is what sucks about this. Your the best Danny TY.
If you add the cost of Danny's crossover parts you have a much more expensive speaker. You are not going to get it for free. These speakers are designed at a price point to make enough profit to keep building them, otherwise they would not build them in the first place.
@@bunjidogg That is true.
@@bunjidogg Those were some amazing reviews of those 25.00 crossovers. That tells me all I need to know about so called expert reviewer's. We had to put some cheap shit in them to be competitive in the speaker market doesn't fly with me and frankly I'm surprised it does with you.
With all due respect. Offer crossover options then. problem solved.
@@lexicon612 or maybe it tells you that the whole "parts quality" thing is marginal at best in any improvements it can bring. simple electric circuits, not magic. the parts shape the frequency response curve, they don't magically make your sine waves sound better.
Dude, he’s adding $680 to cost of the speaker. In any company, you need to triple the cost to recover it. So that alone adds $2K to the cost of the speaker.
People whining about the price 1) don’t need to buy them and 2) don’t realize that you aren’t paying for a pile of parts. You are paying for the engineering, design and experience of the designer. Mofi also needs to make a profit and factor in returns, unsold stock, etc. Their manufacturer likely has a (large) minumum order. It is a business, not a charity. Overall it seems to be a well-designed speaker with a somewhat novel baffled design that sounds good. The upgraded parts will be of interest to some but others will be happy with the way they sound. Even at this price point it will
be difficult to find a commercially available loudspeaker with absolutely no compromises. But people like to whine, especially arm chair audiphiles who have never even heard the speakers in person.
Agreed. Danny would have Vincent Van Gogh rummaging through the shops in Paris looking for the “best” oil paints instead of being outside actually painting.
Would be interesting to see on a Scope what influence IRON has over current on a signal!
And how much it changes when a static magnetic flux is applied , up to saturation of the iron!
Your T-shirt says it all. Yet a question on these drivers is where is the magnet?
They use a small neo magnet.
I thought they were going to talk to each other.
That crossover 😂
😅😅😅klipsch ist keinen Deut besser!!!🇩🇪
There’s nothing funny about it at all. Sold engineering at appropriate costs. The gains from Danny’s upgrade had he not tweaked the response would be very very subtle. Erin measured this speaker and it did not display failings you could point towards the crossover.
How colored is that poly cone ?
It was a paper cone.
Textbook case of a speaker that measures well, but still has issues.
I get old school Technics sb m300 vibes, seeing these.
Charge a premium price and what the eye doesn't see............Well done Danny. I doubt Andrew Jones will respond.
Hi, I’m Andrew Jones AI😅
@ Mr Larwence go play tennis and no meat. ⁉️@gdwlaw5549
Will you upgrade the 10s as well?
If someone sends one in than I will take a look at it.
I think someone is sending one in.
I wonder if you test in a anechoic chamber again would the change too much not what jones was looking for 🤔
We've had a 23 foot long anechoic chamber. I can measure down to 200Hz using a gated time window, outside of the anechoic chamber, and get the exact same results.
Danny
As I grow older the need to listen to speakers direct is less and leans more on the theory of light and rear projection just like Alan Blumlein intended when he invented Stereo circa 1929.
Is it possible Americans were so hooked on mono they missed the rear projection concept let me know if you are familiar.
Will you elaborate please? .... interesting
When I studied 1933 archives the goal was to replicate a " Life Size" Image they redeveloped new microphones and speakers to meet that target and remember he got the Idea in a movie theater!!
The math in his notes point towards speakers angled to produce a mirror Image from reverse just like light from the front in fact the vectors in the formulas are light based
When all is right you get the direction of the piano keys and the singer around 5-6 feet high and most instruments 3-4 feet a true Analogue I'm not referring to Vinyl but the true definition of the word.
Tbh at that price pretty cheesy crossover. Wasn't expecting that at all
The cross over kit I got from Danny for my SVS towers are absolutely amazing, but it took two years for me for them to sound there very best considering I was told it takes 500 hours for everything to break in. Yep, it really did take that long, before that they just sounded plan before the OMG happened. The speakers unreal and better then my friends B&W 700 series towers. No joke they fill the room so much better, it just took a long, long time for them to get to this point. It’s actually hard to explain how good they actually sound unless ur able to experience it. Thx Danny! Wow
500 hours of break in? What if I told you it was 50? How do you know who's right?How long until it just breaks? Why doesn't break in continue past 500? At want point are they just worn out?
Doesn’t matter what you think lol… All I can say is it took a very long time for them to sound 3 dimensional with a beautiful soundstage. You have no clue the amount of caps that go into this so ur really talking out ur ass, u sound like a snowflake lol. I can hear one coming a mile away! 😂
"Break in" is better known as "expectation adjustment" or "bollocks".
@@fredemny3304One well known reviewer has best response "why does everyone assume every audio product improves with use"?
Danny, Is that big/thick baffle an improvement as far as you can tell or just there to look good ?
The faceted design does minimize some surface reflections.
The thumbnail is hilarious!
Dan
That's all Ron (my editor). I don't see them until you do.
Like one of my audiophiles friend says: why reputable designers and companies don’t offer upgrades? For him having Danny go through their design and rip it off doesn’t make any sense when they can easily offer 2 different iterations of the same design and leave people with the choice. I agree.
I am not ripping it off. We are just servicing our customers. You are correct though in that they could offer a higher quality version of it. We do that with most of our DIY kits. We have a budget level version and upgrade options.
Probably it's a way of admitting the standard version is built to a price point versus the promise of marketing hyperbole? Having said that, I agree full heartedly, it would be the pragmatic way of going about it, not to mention if crossovers were external or somehow plug-in, which is technically speaking highly feasible, it would allow people to get their dream speaker at its entry level price and save up for the upgrade as an option, without having to rip out drivers and unsolder and re-solder parts etc., which is probably not everyone's cup of tea.
They dont do uppgrades, for some reason, but it is good for Danny.
Maybe they dont trust their customers to uppgrade filters instead of bying new more expensive speakers with new bad filters instead. Its a question about educating your customers instead of exploiting their lack of knowledge. And most of the brands seems to have chosen the last option.
But at wery high pricepoints the priority are leaning the other way.
So Danny are making gold out of grey rock. All honour to him for that.
I hope they dont hate him for that.
Car manufacturers does not mind if cars are being modifyed, or improved as far as i know, only in som countryes, but that is from safety and tax reasons...
CSS offers that kind of service, at least for their DIY speaker kits. They offer multiple tiers of crossover components, though I think they're all the same basic configuration, just a difference in quality.
@@dannyrichie9743 Exactly. Figure out how they tuned it by reverse-engineering the existing crossover, determine if that is optimal for the desired tuning, then replace or add components in a higher quality to ensure better performance, more consistency, and better longevity.
Ringing at 3khz.....is this due to the notch filter ?
No it has something to do with the response of the tweeter right at the inside edge of the woofer cone.
Small wave guide for the tweeter? Or will that fix one problem and create a worse problem? Really is there a win, win solution to eliminate the woofer cone as a wave guide. I always thought thst the moving wave guide (woofer) would create some problems . Perhaps the shape near the tweeter thought is not right or could be tweaked to minimize the effects. This can only be addressed in the design and development phase of manufacturing. Thr art of manufacturing speakers is certainly addressing the the trade offs and pit falls to achieve a pleasant sound.
The main issue is the voice coil former for the woofer sticks out 1-2mm above the tweeter's mount. Trimming the former back to just behind the tweeter mount would help a lot, as pushing the woofer back to push the former down helped to smooth out the response quite a bit. Adding another/separate waveguide could work, but it would likely cause issues for the woofer, especially at higher volumes, or it could also make the tweeter response worse as well. (see the SoundArtist SB8C)
@@hoth2112 glad to hear a reply. It does seem like a little refinement at the voice coil former and adjacent area could go a long way. As I suspected a separate wave guide will not be easy to implement and still cuase worse problems. The moving cone of the woofer has been one of my concerns along with the actual shape of the cones. I believe that the shape ideal as wave guide for the tweeter may conflict with the ideal shape for the woofer.
Way to go on the thumbnail, slow-Yoda!
Those parts are sad. I have a pair of Elac Adante stand mounts and the crossover parts are much better for less money. Guess the profit margins at MOFI need to be much higher. Still like Andrew Jones speakers though.
Wish I could hear the difference....😊
Phase shift is definitely among the most misunderstood aspects of speaker design. I just deleted about an hour of writing. It's beyond the scope of this comments section.
I was once tasked to teach a co-worker how to handle a certain tool. It took me all of 5 minutes to demonstrate it's use. But it took me nearly an entire day to explain all the things one has to consider in order to use that tool properly and safely. In the end, he reported to my boss that, "he made it look too easy".
Danny, you make driver phase management look too easy.
Thanks, and yes, it is not an easy subject.
Phase shift is addressed in the time alignment of the dual concentric design.
Wawa at Mission Ridge.......its a double black diamond. :)
Short run but fun
Shirt kinda matches the baffle shape.
Ha, it kinda does.
I would like you to check a KEF C95. Maaaan.... It took me a lot of time to update it
Send one in and I will take a look at it.
Steve's rather 'loud' silence on the source point 10s is rather interesting to me. He didn't even give them an honorable mention at the end of '23. Anyone else notice this?
Steve Guttenberg?
Would you say concentric drivers are basically a gimmick?
No, they have merit.
I'm glad such videos exist to realise how much a speaker is overpriced, all Hi-Fi is speculative, prices of products such as these jump in the thousands: 999$, 1,999$, 2,999$ to mount polyester capacitors and ferric binding posts. Making this speaker costs so much less than the asking price.
Can you modify the grill to remove the Mobile Fidelity badge, lol?
A Dremel tool works wonders. LSMFT
You can easily put a Bose badge on it or a custom Magico plaque for the rear if things like that matter to you.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt
Yes, like a SS 454 badge ...
"is that a real 454 SS?"
Danny, the Obi-wan of speaker modz!
More like the Jar Jar Binks tbh. Annoying and pointless.
@@ericthemauve huh? What do ya have against Danny?
@@1moderntalking1 How long have you got?
@@ericthemauve try me…
MoFi likes this video 🤣🤣🤣
TELL 'EM, Danny.
Has anyone actually tried this upgrade yet? From the video i get the impression you guys havent listened to the speaker acter the upgrade. Regards
the person who sent the speaker to Danny is currently having them built and installed. so no, no one has listened to them yet. We never do the installation work in-house, just the crossover design work.
@@DannyRichie-uc8sw Ah i understand, Thank you. Does that mean this kit was developed without being listened to? Curious cus I'm considering doing this upgrade in the future
@@DannyRichie-uc8sw Do you put your kits in the speaker and listen to them or is it pure speculation that they will sound better?
Andrew Jones is shaking his head 😮
We were shaking ours too.
Probably not, everything has to be built to a price point.
If this speaker had a crossover with this level of upgrades it would probably be 5k +
Hmm. I was interested in these speakers having heard the 10. But the idea of buying them new and then having to upgrade them fills me with dread.
Get the sourcepoint 8-8-8 floorstander. It is a whole lot better than the bookshelfs.
@@wa2368 Thanks, I wasn't aware of these! Will definitely check them out.
@@wa2368great choice, but I don’t think this have a Danny crossover.
Well you don’t need to upgrade anything, only enjoy the music. BUT if you want to take it to next level, then a upgrade on the crossover will give you a musical moment. These speakers are built to a price point.
I'm sure it and the 10" version are nice, but I inherently distrust 2-way designs that claim to be full-range. There's just no way you're getting deep bass and clean mids at the same time. Compromises will be made. If you don't like a lot of bass then it may be an acceptable compromise, but I love bass, so I'll stick to proper 3-way designs.
19:38 What the hell is an "impedance trap"? Lol I thought I'd heard most lingo when it comes to speakers, their design and components, but obviously not!
Looks like just a notch filter where the resistor value was chosen to define the load impedance. It’s in parallel with the actual crossover so it doesn’t change the output of the drivers but lowers the impedance in a narrow freq band
@@dominicdiclemente8877 That is correct.
Any type of amplifier using an output transformer, which is true of most tube amplifiers, will "mimic" and thus skew the frequency response (with the exception of some superlative and costly designs that I doubt anyone would use with this speakers) - and no, that's not a flaw of the amplifier. So even if one didn't do the crossover upgrade on this speaker, but used it with a tube amplifier (it's fairly low in sensitivity, would need to be a reasonably powerful one), using this LCR in parallel with the speaker (across the binding posts of either the speaker or the amp) would audibly improve sound quality, and the loss in energy is negligible.
@@LeonFleisherFan what do you mean by mimic ? Are you talking about the higher output impedance of tube amps (more commonly referred by the damping factor) ? If anything having a higher output impedance is a downside when it comes to this notch filter
@@dominicdiclemente8877I wish I could upload measurements to demonstrate, but you'll find ones googling the subject: what happens is when a transformer "sees" a flat impedance, the frequency response will be flat, but when it "sees" variation, this variation will be reflected in the frequency response. Not to the full extent in percent, but up to a few decibels depending on the impedance (and related electric phase) swings.
I have his Elac Carina floorstanders which I doubt you could discover improvements!
Oh yeah? looks inside.
It is chinaman made. Open it up and you know it.
Wanted those back when they were on sale.
Pretty sure those aren’t designed by Andrew Jones.
Would imagine the crossover at the price would have cheaper parts and could be improved.
AJ had nothing to do with Carinas
@@oluhamilton2121 you are wrong.He is the designer.How can you post that without checking it out first?
Tour d cheese
Can I send you my 10’s to upgrade them ??
I'll be glad to take a look at one of them.
Great how do I go about it
@@user-td1lo9eo2p Send one to the address that is at the bottom of every page of our website.
Andrew is a great designer but is probably told by the accountants only to use the cheapest cross over parts
. So it is the same MoFi.
Where is the money in them if the crossover is no good , it’s only a box with a 8” full range driver 😮
The cabinet, and the driver probably takes just as much to design a good coaxial motor system. Otherwise it's the same old thing, there's markup everywhere
@@morlidorhave you ever tried updating a crossover? It can make a massive difference especially when it's junk.
@@morlidorwhat???
@@morlidor lol try again. Replace one sand cast resistor on a tweeter and tell me you didn't hear an immediate difference. Until you do that you can't state that it makes no difference.
WOW!
Wow, $3200 CAD.
Everything is really cheap, not shocked for an over marketed product. Still a 3k speaker here in Canada, that’s crazy
Agree with the Xover component upgrade. Are their any Xover distortion measurements at rated power to justify the price
And the result ??? 🤔🤔
PS - I was subscribed, but now I'm NOT - WHY ??
Sad to see el-cheapo parts in a speaker in this price range. Especially when every single reviewer raved about it. More high priced junk!
Very interesting. I would like to hear Andrew Jones' rebuttal or whether he agrees.
tbh i expected more from that speaker for that price. my old elac dfr52 models, andrew jones, were incredibly well braced but the parts were identical to those and the dfr sold for 1.2k more or less. that speaker is over priced imho. yes it has molded baffles but its a simple box with one hole in it and a couple ports.. always amazed to see reviewers gushing over every andrew jones design and then you take a look and its just average. i am certain those upgrades will be impressive ntl.
the end price might not be only with parts and work, if it sound too good for the price they intended. they increase the price. they wont a good speaker at a cheap price.
My references are ultra high performance and the sourcepoint was unbearable to listen to compared to a full synergy designed and built ultra high performance setup. I could not settle for the vast limitations that were clearly audible when I listened to them. I would never affiliate my name to less than par excellence minimum under any circumstances
I guess Danny will be too busy to make videos anymore soon as surely he will be scooped up by one of the big guys to sort out all their dodgy designs now that we all know he can improve upon Andrew Jones designs.......
Sorry but, attenuating ~1Khz - ~15KHz is not going to sound, "exactly the same".
..If A.J. design those Speakers I find it heard to believe that it would need better parts That Danny Claims it needes,I I don't think they would skimp on parts like that ..Id like to here what A.J. would say about it.A very taleted speaker designer.!...Wheres the scientific audiophile when we need him !
Ah, the crossover that came out of them was clearly shown in the video. They are budget level parts, to put it nicely.
@@morlidor Correct, cost does not determine performance, but there are vast differences in the quality of the parts.
I wonder what Andrew Jones say now, doing these compromises is surprising 🤐😮. I actually believed Andrew Jones was way less pushing no-compromise 🤔
@@morlidora comment completely separate from reality
@@morlidor Actually the quality of the crossover makes a huge difference. It is the heart of the speaker.
@@morlidor my background, applications, and inventions in advanced materials, electronics, and applied sciences especially in regards to ultra high end reproduction of audio and complex signals analysis says while a total aspect view and approach is required for ultra high end reproduction, a truly proper crossover is of EXTREME IMPORTANCE in the total mix
@@morlidorthen you haven’t been able to listen to a Danny upgraded speaker or just an upgraded other speaker with better parts. Even I who have tinnitus can hear it.
@@morlidorJa! Klarare och tydligare. More clear and better focus on notes. My old Pioneers did wake up from hibernation after a total crossover update. Only new Jantzen parts.
I can hear the CEO now "Andrew, you want to double the cost just by changing the x-over components? Idiots will buy it at $2k not $4k!"😂
2.2K for that crossover? Hells no
For 3000€/pair is the crossover absolute a joke. Looks like klipsch inside. The 8" chassis is from china. 🤔🤔