I like that spag allowed each guest to answer the questions and not trying to control the direction of the conversation. This seemed natural and authentic. I hope this type of content continues 🔥🔥🔥
I really liked how it felt like we actually got their real opinions, and they didn't agree on everything. It was a fantastic mix of Players to choose from.
Tekken 8 existing to giving life back to these roundtables is one of the best things. Hoping to see Arya, FrameWhisperer, Dinosaur and many more in the future! Speedkicks and Joey had some great levelheaded takes, Arslan finally getting to speak outside of Twitter was needed and the Joka/SuperAkouma dynamic had me dying with laughter at points.
I've only ever seen tournament footage of Arslan, always stone-faced. He's such a chill, funny dude. Man's cackling like he ripped the fattest hit. Feel like it's really valuable to have SK there getting a non-tournament perspective across as well. The podcast as a whole is stacked. Can't wait for the next one.
I’ve been chomping at the bit for something like this. Great insight! I never thought I’d agree with Super Akuma so much. Gained a lot of respect for him
Everyone else was super quick to write off all the new mechanics. He’s the one guest who was able to separate whether the new mechanic is busted, or that there are just certain characters that are busted outliers with the mechanic. Also he was the one that brought up that Heat engage is actually a defensive mechanic in this game and if you nerf it too hard, then the overwhelming offense in this game will be even more OP. You can tell once he said that, the light clicked in a lot of the other’s eyes and realized he’s right. It’s just funny though that when it came back to Arslan and Joka, they were like “Yeah Joey is right…” and didn’t give SuperAkuoma credit for the idea lol. 😂
Absolutely fantastic show, Spag. Great moderation and I enjoyed that everybody had plenty of time to express their thoughts. Looking forward to the next episode! Hoping you can get the angry green man on the show somehow. :D
Seen it live, I agree with Speedkicks across the spectrum. The chars below the top tiers (Feng/Drag) are really fun to play against eachother and I think they should be the standard. Also things like Jin ff2 which is practically auto neutral with an invisible hit box need to be tuned. Great discussion tho I hope perhaps the devs in the future maybe listen to these because some great potential changes with consideration for implications were discussed.
@@tekkn_579 not really tbh both characters are cracked out rn, drag got more damage with new tools and feng got almost no nerfs while keeping some of the best poking in the game and getting more damage
@@hiimpranav but his block punishment is very underwhelming though. That’s the trade off. Even fengs poking doesn’t really compare to dragunov and that says a lot. Ling goes under moves she shouldn’t with AOP even fengs b3 whifs lol. I think fengs b3 will get nerfed a bit, but not too much will change tbh unless they want to make him mid tier.
Man you can feel the pettiness between superakouma and joka it was very entertaining. Thanks for posting the clip on this btw I would have never found it.
I use it as a killing mixup so often. If the smash hits, they die, if they block it, they have to guess again, and if they move, the hitbox is so huge and the multiple hits coming out on whiff means I’m going unpunished 90% even if I miss. They’re almost impossible to misuse and they do way too much damage. And like 2/3rds of them wallsplat for some reason? Easily the worst mechanic in the game imo.
@@WeMissDimebag Fully agree. I use them in the same way, I dont even think about other heat moves because the heat smashes are too good and braindead.
No matter what I dislike nerfing movement across the board in a fighting game. And oh my GOD I’m so sick of every single dev saying that games need to be more ham, more offensive, and more flashy so casuals will think it’s exciting. Big neutral skipping moves into mixup and huge damage that anyone can do is not hype. Who said it is? What’s hype is seeing the highest level of player move in a way you couldn’t believe is possible, spacing beautifully, being a wall on defense, and tight whiff punishing. Things you want to do/think you can but actually can’t when you try it yourself. We don’t need to add explosions & forced goal opportunities to soccer to make it more exciting and we don’t need to make it so I have a decent chance to beat a player better than me at soccer
beautifully said. I mean you could go hyper aggressive in Tekken 7 as well but everything had counter plays. In the end its still a very fast game of guessing but we weren't ever forced to do it. As a Bryan player i could just chill out the mashers and let them kill themselves but now i'm sacred every moment. I have to press buttons because i don't want to get into the devastating loop of the opponent
I loved always watching Tekken 7 but you got to admit seeing many matches go to the last few seconds often is boring when they are just back dashing the whole time and poking. Even some of the grand finals weren't that exciting because of that. Especially when it's 3 out of 5 back dashing and barely fighting. There's a middle ground.
@@superbadisfunmy I agree. I actually like 8 a lot more even though naturally my style is to be defensive. I prefer defensive strategies in almost all of the games I play, but the meta in 7 was clearly to just obtain the lead, move backwards, and not engage until the opponent killed themself. Unless you were playing DLC Waifu Movement the Laterality was very difficult to pull off and everything was a Safe Counter-Hit Launcher so engaging was genuinely a difficult sell at high level. In 8, defence is more active rather than choosing Backdash everytime. Because choosing Backdash everytime can make you eat +Frames since Backdashes are universally not as strong, moves do Chip Damage, Heat can force Mix, and Sidestep is stronger across the board. You're more incentivised to manage and mix up your defensive choices, and I think that makes for a more diverse game, maybe more inconsistent, and maybe there's something to be said about that, but just the same way the design philosophy is that one move isn't supposed to cover everything, Backdash do nothing shouldn't cover everything either. Choosing a defensive option should carry some manner of risk. That's the bare basics of design of a move like Hatchet Kick in the first place.
Well I disagree, For entry level and majority of player base People DO like offense, and all they want is new players especially on launch and SS1. This is the right "direction" on business stand point, BUT the "implementations" IS DEFO wrong. Everything is so unhealthy even for new players since every match is just a coin flip and every low level match is just who get launched first. In this environment Low level players will just quit after few months if not week, because they get bored by all they do is watching their character get tossing around until they die or just repeat their offence flow chart over every match. So I disagree, They got the right idea of the game directions but I agree that the implementation is shit and wrong for 80% of what they trying to do.
> With the heat dash, I think one way to balance it is to make it an "on-hit only" thing. The yolo heat engager (plus frames) after heat consumption (plus frames) after heat dash/smash (plus frames/if mid), not only gets annoying after 50x, but in many of these cases, due to the increasing lack of defensive options because of jailing, sticky plus frames and homing linears, the 50/50s become a bit too overwhelming. > With power crushes, they have a property where the moves become safe when an attack gets absorbed. That's wack.
Thanks for this podcast, all of you, its really interesting, many opinion that i know before tekken 8 on many aspect and évolution of the game. Spag: just to say, you have done a great job for timetalk everyone, equal and good questions, you may have a good journalist lmao. Seriously its was a pleasure to listen this, maybe long for you and them, but its normal, we have so much to talk about it. Thank you to all of you.
Loved that SuperAkouma pushed back about Heat Burst because I’m also worried about nerfing it because it’s one of the only tools we have to deal with how strong offense is. And it’s not free; you forfeit about a third of your Heat bar and it also means you can’t hit a Heat engager and get your grey life back (which I didn’t hear them talk about anywhere but maybe I missed it). They should probably be slower to allow more counterplay by throws and lows, maybe more like 20f instead of the 16f they are now, but I’m very scared of what this game would be like if they were much worse.
Speaking on the Tekken lounge I'm not sure if this would be possible but it'd be cool if for major tournaments or online tournaments the lounge would get expanded and everyone could go in, sit down and spectate the tournys
Thanks You for the great commentaries. Everyone made great points. I believe Speedkicks stated that T8 makes fighting unpredictable and keeps you on your toes. All this is true, while having tons of fun....been playing since T1 🙏🏿
The take I take from this talk is: Arslan Ash/Joka didn't like the new systems and is struggling to shift his focus from defense to attack,and all the new systems are not fun and should be removed or redesigned. Speedkick did adapt to the new system, and have some valid inputs. Akuma is the one that have more adapted to the new systems and provided the more valid inputs, not looking down on everything new and hoping Tekken 7/6 is brought back. So the take from Arslan is that Tekken 8 is a cassino with so many 50/50 that defense can be mostly ignored. However Akuma/Speedkicks gives a much more insightful look at the game and just say that the ones still playing as Tekken 7 are just using the wrong tools for the scenarios provided. Now the offense is so much greater that just turtle and hope for an opening is not enough, you need to proactively create it, this is using the many resources given, and the buffed moves like armor, grabs and even Heat as a safe tools, making the attack your shield. Also a consensus was formed that much of the system problems is originated from the lack of balance of the game, making some mechanics overly frustrating which doesn't happen in mid tier characters. Arslan agree somewhat but still thinks Tekken 8 is Las Vegas.
I was ready to hate but that was pretty accurate assessment especially of Ash who just wants to go back to turtle style..But let me add something..Knee,ash,Korean style etc..Don't realize they are the reason the game has changed..Them turtling 24/7 scared to attack.Scared to go in without doing a extreme safe poke.Then back to kbd it was a bunch of people scared to attack..So they literally put heat engagers so the players can "Engage" in the actual fight..Without having to be scared to do so
Arslan and Joka are focused on winning tournaments so their takes are more representative of winning tournaments..... SpeedKicks and SuperAkouma are not really considered consistent tournament winners or placing high in tournaments so they have a lot more fun/casual take.
My problem with "creating thode openings" using the tools you have is you dont create them, you already have them, ypu just have to use them, wich turn everything into a casino, is less about skill and more about using your pre-created tool to force the opponent to guess
i think they should keep the quick match like it is right now because it keeps the matchups going, however on the win/lose screen were you can choose rematch and so on there should be an option to go into a custom room or atleast "add player to friendslist". Also, great job with this Spag. This series is awesome delving into the minds of the pros, the discourse climate, how you let everybody finish. Kudos, a definite follow and subscribe from me.
I don´t think you can make Reinas ff2 one frame slower on block because it would make the move pretty much unusable. What if you make it a high? It would work like a Claudio/Alisa kind of WR2. It would not be mindless anymore for sure.
@@АскарШуканов they are all save and work very differently. my point is that a jab would beat all options but the low SEN3+4 wich is launchpunishable and the powercrush SEN1,2 with is -14.
@@ZiegenMeisterV1 nvm, i thought you meant slower startup, but you meant what Speedkicks said about making it more negative on block by 1 frame. I agree
As i been playing more i feel one of the balance changes could be removing the animation when you activate heat and change it to normal power crush with linear tracking. I feel the animation from heat smash strongly prevents counter play
I agreed with basically everything Arslan said But I think Joeys overall outlook is more realistic of what is to come Also on Speed saying mindless defense Umm I understand what he's trying to say But even the MOST "mindless" defense Doesn't compare to mindless offense This game is for noobz - Arslan
Super Akoumas answer at 2hour mark was perfect. What he shared there was such a good observation and he correctly challenged some of the romantic views of older fighting games. Fighting games are hard and the old ones also had insanely broken mechanics. T8 is still very new. After significant balance patches the game will only get more fun and more competitive. I think Arslan and Joka are too quick to speak bad about T8. They need to give it time. T8 will only improve
Heat and chip as overall mechanics are fun and interesting. Like Joey and Akouma said, a lot of the balance issues in this game are just specific moves that are way too powerful.
My local has been shakin' up in terms of who's winning. There's DEFINITELY people whose play style is great for Tekken 8, but not for Tekken 7. Imo it's great to see. We've been playing the same game for 8 years, this change is great to be apart of
I agree with Joey Fury, Joka and Arslan. Dont know how Speed can sit there and say Mindless Defense..Defense in any sport is inherently reactive, you cant be mindless while doing it compared to Offense which always has the initiative and can exploit loopholes/weaknesses in the Defense or even the game itself being played. The basic flow of a match in T8 requires much less thinking than T7. Sure, with some characters you could play very lame and win in T7 BUT it wasnt the ONLY way to play those characters and come out winning. In T8 you NEED to be pressing the offensive which inherently dumbs down the options one needs to take throughout the course of a match. Its always about who can use their System Mechanic Shit the best and most efficiently rather than who can outplay the other with their characters base moveset and movement, like previous Tekkens. And, like Speed said, unbalanced moves exacerbate the issue. This is coming from an Intermediate-High level player. It was fun and flashy the first month, but I'm tired of it. I dont want to play a Tekken game where my best choice is to always turn off my brain and press forward for 5+ years. They solved T7s issues by addressing specific characters and moves that allowed/incentivized people to play highly risk averse but then added frosting on top the Cake that no one asked for with Heat and Chip.
I'll also add my opinion on some of the things mentioned in this video because why not. For reference I'm a Raijin Bryan main so take my opinion however you want. I'm obviously no tournament player. I'm happy to have a conversation if anyone wishes. I like CH and tracking grabs. I believe the CH window should be increased because at the moment it just feels guaranteed. This does make King particularly strong but within the context of the game it's helpful for everyone else. I think it's the correct decision to have a blocked heat burst be +1 because it's a powerful defensive tool in a game all about aggression. I think chip damage is fine and I like it, but it absolutely needs to be tuned on many moves, or characters as a whole need to be reworked. Hwoarang shouldn't be able to just run his game and take half your health within 10 seconds because you're waiting for your chance to duck or step and punish. It's too overwhelming. Obvs Azu and Drag WR moves need to be toned down. Chip is too much on certain moves. High power crush heat engagers need to be punishable. Where's the counter play? They can do it, fail, and do another straight away. They're too strong. -10 minimum. Low heat smashes should all be launch punishable. In heat you're able to mix a safe launching mid and with some characters a massive power low. The risk reward is so incredibly skewed in the attackers favour. It's completely unfair. I think magic 4s should be reintroduced. In a game all about aggression it hurts too much taking away one of the best fast generic defensive tools. It would also go thematically with the game of 'aggression' because it would insentivise the defender to press because they have a strong CH button. There are balance changes that need to happen obviously, but this is just my opinion on some of the mechanics talked about in this podcast.
I absolutely agree with Speedkicks.... The top level game play in tekken 7 was get a life lead by poking the legs a few times then back dash until the timer ran out. God forbid you force a fighting game player to actually FIGHT. Now you gotta actually make reads and get good and draining the opponents life bar before they drain yours.... If you're playing a fighting game, and you're a top player losing to mindless offense.... then there's something wrong. MAYBE..... MAYBE.... they should make punishes stronger in tekken and that would solve everything. But even then if someone is doing mindless offense you have the same ability to do it back... therefore if your defense is better you're going to win...... And defense as in... blocking correctly, side stepping correctly... NOT back dashing until the timer runs out. Speed kicks wasn't talking from a casual player perspective IDK why he conceded that.... He's talking from a pro's perspective, he finds it less fun in a high level game to just back dash on a life lead and letting the clock go to 0... that doesn't happen in casual games. And spag... if Arslans defense is much better than yours, and you take games off him when you wouldn't in tekken 7 that simply means his offense is lacking...
2:41:30 I absolutely agree with the Kimg points. I played at a local tournament with Bryan and i cam confidently say hes the best counter hit character in thr game. 10 frame homing counter hir unbreakable throw that does 70 damage with a wall around. Counter hit confirmable df+2,1. Character is stupid. I couldnt step and couldnt throw out any slow loves. King warps matchups and its not heslthy.
It’s funny cuz all the critique of the state of the game, you can point to Zafina and she’s already that way out of the box. They can make fair balance but they chose not to but only to a small few of the cast on drop
Arslan's sitting there like "I can't believe what I'm hearing right now." But his perspective is also probably the most skewed since I guess, judging by his reactions, everyone in Pakistan is just a beast lol. Also, it's hilarious that he says Speedkick's opinion that defense was too easy in Tekken 7 is taking the side of "casual players". Even if Heatburst is like a life raft in a sea of busted offense, it still feels dumb because there's so little possible counterplay in many situations. It's just another "brainless" mechanic thrown in to deal with a bunch of other "brainless" options, which also nets you a full combo if you happened to hit them out of the air. The super freeze on the heatburst is definitely that way since if it happened right when you pressed the buttons, and then those 16~ frames of start up happened, a lot if not all characters would just be able to do a low or throw on reaction if they're in range. But the way it works just looks really unintuitive, since games don't usually have the super freeze occur well into the actual start up of the move. If anything, maybe move the super freeze pose out of the start up, and turn it into an on-hit/block pose which I feel would look a lot more natural in Tekken. With chip, idk, it feels like they picked the moves and the chip values out of a hat. Like why on Earth does Dragunov's homing attack do FOURTEEN damage on block, and that's when he's not in heat. Also, I think the nerf to Azucena's wr3,2 might almost be a sidegrade rather than a straight nerf. Before if you sidestep ducked it she'd stay in front of you for an easy launch, but now she's just going to fly 20 feet past you and be quite hard to punish, especially since the camera can be really unpredictable in those situations. The place where I'd see it being way worse is at the wall. It's tough I think for them to basically implement this kind of meter system, since characters in Tekken were pretty much designed to be powerful without it. Akuma and Geese were designed from the ground up to have a meter, and wouldn't be nearly as good without them. T8 Dragunov though would still be terrifying whether he had a heat meter or not. Anyway, now if certain moves or abilities have a meter cost, they have to be stronger, and significantly so in order to make spending that resource feel good. But making certain moves in Tekken significantly stronger than what they already were can just drop them into free or braindead territory. Basically, there's just a bunch of moves in the game that cover too many bases, or give too much reward for very little risk. In a current 2D game, you'll be hard pressed now to find a safe on block invincible DP even with meter, because that move would cover too many options. I think right now in T8, there's a bunch of attacks that are basically like that.
Completely agreed. Its unfortunate that the Tekken team has put themselves into this situation because considering their track record with balancing, they wont figure this shit out for 2 more years. At which point many people, pros especially, will be fed up with the game. Having an arcade release shielded most people from all this BS but now everyone will see it and how long it takes them to achieve a semblance of balance and by the time they do it might be too late.
what about an heat burst that kinda acts like lee's slide in terms of frames in 3 variations. +1 , -3 & -6 depending on what range you hit the burst. Maybe shown thru colored hit indicators. kinda like the idea
I definitely disagree with nerfing ff2 3 because a jab beats multiple options already. The only option you have to beat a jab outside of that is useing a launchable low. And majority of reinas kit is sidestepable. Anything that catches you sidestepping isn't very dangerous.
I don't really get why so many are upset with Heat Bursts. I think Heat Smash, Heat chip and Heat Engage are all more oppressive Heat mechanics. The main difference between Heat Bursts and Armor Moves are: 1. Better on block: The knockback is so big that it doesn't really matter if it's +1 or -11. If Heat Bursts were -9, you would be forced to back off. The opponent would have to use a + frame move that can bridge that gap, if it can even reach that distance plus a backstep. But is this what we want? Isn't it just a normal armor move if it doesn't reset on block? 2. Can interrupt an incoming attack: This is really the main strength of a Heat Burst. It's great as a panic move if you only have a bit of HP left. The fact that you can interrupt lows can especially be a lifesaver. But since it does so little damage, I'd say a standard armor move trades HP better on average. 3. You can use it to get a bit more combo dmg: This is pitiful, especially when you consider that you're sacrificing a defensive Heat Burst or a Heat Engage 50/50. I think the intent behind the Heat Burst is to escape pressure and restart the round. It's a way to decrease the amount of rounds that snowballs into wins. It makes characters like Dragunov less strong. Anything between +1 to -1 on block would be fine imo. At -5, the move feels pointless to me. I think 99% of the reason why some are afraid of Heat Burst is because of Heat Smashes. Them getting access to powerful, quick and rangey moves makes that -1 feel much more intimidating. They are the moves that maybe needs to be balanced, but to an extent I think we have to learn how to properly respect the moves. I think the Heat Engager is much stronger than Heat Burst. You heal chip, you get a free 50/50, and you get to use your full heat bar in the middle of a round when you're not afraid of dying. The purpose of the Heat Engager is to encourage chunkier moves who are used outside of poking range, making the game into less of a poke-fest. Some characters, like Paul are clearly meant to lean heavy on Heat Engagers to get early leads. Heat Burst is a compensation to defensive players.
On the topic of heat burst, I get that this would screw with the armor hierarchy, but I think heat burst just shouldn't get armor. That way, you have to demonstrate your command of Tekken fundamentals in order to defend and be able to find an opening to use it and it wouldn't be just a mindless get off me move into strong pressure. Or maybe it can just be the lowest on the armor totem pole? Or just have the armor start up later do it can't be such a panic button?
1. Heat burst should be -3 on block but beat everything as it is(win even throws and lows). 2. Throw is fine to be homing but only generic Throws where the animations match the breaks. The command throws that have unique break and ignore the animations SHOULD NOT homing 3. Throw Counter is Stupid but Throw Power crush is Awesome. 4. Heat engager power crush / Chip damage / Heat smash is more of Move specific problem than system problem.
Please make Heat a resource to be managed between rounds, instead of a tool to be spammed. Dmg taken/dealt increases, power crushes consumes heat. Engagers and Burst only available at full bar 🙌
speed kicks wants smash bros in tekken. "MiNdLeSs DeFeNsE" +Huge W for spag for this one btw. Yall gotta let superakouma talk 🤣 man got interrupted 50 times
Stacked couch, thanks for this 👍
play dvj
Dude you would be such a great foil to these discussions because you've been the necessary voice of dissent and I mean that with nothing but respect.
I like that spag allowed each guest to answer the questions and not trying to control the direction of the conversation. This seemed natural and authentic. I hope this type of content continues 🔥🔥🔥
Yeah it was great, could have been a mess. This was put together well.
I really liked how it felt like we actually got their real opinions, and they didn't agree on everything. It was a fantastic mix of Players to choose from.
Joey Fury had really great insights into the game.
He's the Batman of Tekken
Agreed, sound reasoning and well spoken too. Mans just chill and nice
Anytime SuperAkouma speaks Joka be cracking the biggest smile, shit has me dying 😂
I think they have history, when Joka kept coming on stage to coach and Superakouma was complaining 😂. It was funny AF.
@@PearlsOfwiszdom Do you know where I can find a video of that?
@@the_inducted I really can't remember. I remember it was super akoumas Vs raef from Saudi.
@@PearlsOfwiszdom 🙏 thank you
Tekken 8 existing to giving life back to these roundtables is one of the best things. Hoping to see Arya, FrameWhisperer, Dinosaur and many more in the future!
Speedkicks and Joey had some great levelheaded takes, Arslan finally getting to speak outside of Twitter was needed and the Joka/SuperAkouma dynamic had me dying with laughter at points.
Interesting points by Super Akouma and Joey on the balancing side. Especially with the Heihachi db2 exmaple.
thank you for putting this together spag, it was great
I've only ever seen tournament footage of Arslan, always stone-faced. He's such a chill, funny dude. Man's cackling like he ripped the fattest hit. Feel like it's really valuable to have SK there getting a non-tournament perspective across as well. The podcast as a whole is stacked. Can't wait for the next one.
He's still coping and seething about T8 lmao
I’ve been chomping at the bit for something like this. Great insight!
I never thought I’d agree with Super Akuma so much. Gained a lot of respect for him
Super Akouma always been that guy. He just played Akuma so no one gave him the respect he deserved. 🗿
Everyone else was super quick to write off all the new mechanics. He’s the one guest who was able to separate whether the new mechanic is busted, or that there are just certain characters that are busted outliers with the mechanic.
Also he was the one that brought up that Heat engage is actually a defensive mechanic in this game and if you nerf it too hard, then the overwhelming offense in this game will be even more OP. You can tell once he said that, the light clicked in a lot of the other’s eyes and realized he’s right. It’s just funny though that when it came back to Arslan and Joka, they were like “Yeah Joey is right…” and didn’t give SuperAkuoma credit for the idea lol. 😂
Absolutely fantastic show, Spag. Great moderation and I enjoyed that everybody had plenty of time to express their thoughts. Looking forward to the next episode! Hoping you can get the angry green man on the show somehow. :D
Amazing podcast, you are a great host, Spag.
I like how they looked at it from different perspectives
Joka is so funny. You have bears shitting out electrics into heat smash will always be funny to me @1:00:31
Excellent podcast SPAG and really insightful to have such an incredible panel.
Looking forward to future episodes
Seen it live, I agree with Speedkicks across the spectrum.
The chars below the top tiers (Feng/Drag) are really fun to play against eachother and I think they should be the standard. Also things like Jin ff2 which is practically auto neutral with an invisible hit box need to be tuned.
Great discussion tho I hope perhaps the devs in the future maybe listen to these because some great potential changes with consideration for implications were discussed.
You can’t really compare feng to dragunov, drag is in his own tier.
@@tekkn_579 not really tbh both characters are cracked out rn, drag got more damage with new tools and feng got almost no nerfs while keeping some of the best poking in the game and getting more damage
@@hiimpranav but his block punishment is very underwhelming though. That’s the trade off. Even fengs poking doesn’t really compare to dragunov and that says a lot. Ling goes under moves she shouldn’t with AOP even fengs b3 whifs lol. I think fengs b3 will get nerfed a bit, but not too much will change tbh unless they want to make him mid tier.
Good shit, huge fan.
Eagerly waiting for more 🥰
Was really fun listening to the whole thing live , excited for the next one!
ngl I thought the title at the beginning was "Heatstroke", and it actually fits the game right now pretty well
Amazing talk! Thanks Spag for hosting this, I hope we get a part two after the next patch or big tournament ;)
Amazing panel, thanks for this, I hope you'll do more of these.
Man you can feel the pettiness between superakouma and joka it was very entertaining. Thanks for posting the clip on this btw I would have never found it.
One of them needs to get a girlfriend 😂😂
@@JJ-Toreddie Pretty sure both of them do, tf kind of nonsense comment is this.
@@ridleyroid9060😭
Great podcast. Really enjoyed it. Would love to see Arya from Blasted Salami could be in one in the future.
The number of times I blow my Heat Smash specifically to get the plus frames on block os crazy.
I use it as a killing mixup so often. If the smash hits, they die, if they block it, they have to guess again, and if they move, the hitbox is so huge and the multiple hits coming out on whiff means I’m going unpunished 90% even if I miss.
They’re almost impossible to misuse and they do way too much damage.
And like 2/3rds of them wallsplat for some reason?
Easily the worst mechanic in the game imo.
@@WeMissDimebag Fully agree. I use them in the same way, I dont even think about other heat moves because the heat smashes are too good and braindead.
No matter what I dislike nerfing movement across the board in a fighting game.
And oh my GOD I’m so sick of every single dev saying that games need to be more ham, more offensive, and more flashy so casuals will think it’s exciting. Big neutral skipping moves into mixup and huge damage that anyone can do is not hype. Who said it is?
What’s hype is seeing the highest level of player move in a way you couldn’t believe is possible, spacing beautifully, being a wall on defense, and tight whiff punishing. Things you want to do/think you can but actually can’t when you try it yourself.
We don’t need to add explosions & forced goal opportunities to soccer to make it more exciting and we don’t need to make it so I have a decent chance to beat a player better than me at soccer
beautifully said. I mean you could go hyper aggressive in Tekken 7 as well but everything had counter plays. In the end its still a very fast game of guessing but we weren't ever forced to do it. As a Bryan player i could just chill out the mashers and let them kill themselves but now i'm sacred every moment. I have to press buttons because i don't want to get into the devastating loop of the opponent
Gamer brains are fried nowadays.
I loved always watching Tekken 7 but you got to admit seeing many matches go to the last few seconds often is boring when they are just back dashing the whole time and poking. Even some of the grand finals weren't that exciting because of that. Especially when it's 3 out of 5 back dashing and barely fighting.
There's a middle ground.
@@superbadisfunmy I agree. I actually like 8 a lot more even though naturally my style is to be defensive. I prefer defensive strategies in almost all of the games I play, but the meta in 7 was clearly to just obtain the lead, move backwards, and not engage until the opponent killed themself. Unless you were playing DLC Waifu Movement the Laterality was very difficult to pull off and everything was a Safe Counter-Hit Launcher so engaging was genuinely a difficult sell at high level.
In 8, defence is more active rather than choosing Backdash everytime. Because choosing Backdash everytime can make you eat +Frames since Backdashes are universally not as strong, moves do Chip Damage, Heat can force Mix, and Sidestep is stronger across the board. You're more incentivised to manage and mix up your defensive choices, and I think that makes for a more diverse game, maybe more inconsistent, and maybe there's something to be said about that, but just the same way the design philosophy is that one move isn't supposed to cover everything, Backdash do nothing shouldn't cover everything either. Choosing a defensive option should carry some manner of risk. That's the bare basics of design of a move like Hatchet Kick in the first place.
Well I disagree, For entry level and majority of player base People DO like offense, and all they want is new players especially on launch and SS1.
This is the right "direction" on business stand point, BUT the "implementations" IS DEFO wrong. Everything is so unhealthy even for new players since every match is just a coin flip and every low level match is just who get launched first. In this environment Low level players will just quit after few months if not week, because they get bored by all they do is watching their character get tossing around until they die or just repeat their offence flow chart over every match.
So I disagree, They got the right idea of the game directions but I agree that the implementation is shit and wrong for 80% of what they trying to do.
Wow, what a legendary panel of Tekken players🔥
Did joka just say „jab him out of jump“ and „just backdash,bro“ xDD love him
> With the heat dash, I think one way to balance it is to make it an "on-hit only" thing. The yolo heat engager (plus frames) after heat consumption (plus frames) after heat dash/smash (plus frames/if mid), not only gets annoying after 50x, but in many of these cases, due to the increasing lack of defensive options because of jailing, sticky plus frames and homing linears, the 50/50s become a bit too overwhelming.
> With power crushes, they have a property where the moves become safe when an attack gets absorbed. That's wack.
I was waiting for it. Thanks for uploading it here spaggy ❤
Thanks for this podcast, all of you, its really interesting, many opinion that i know before tekken 8 on many aspect and évolution of the game.
Spag: just to say, you have done a great job for timetalk everyone, equal and good questions, you may have a good journalist lmao.
Seriously its was a pleasure to listen this, maybe long for you and them, but its normal, we have so much to talk about it.
Thank you to all of you.
Loved that SuperAkouma pushed back about Heat Burst because I’m also worried about nerfing it because it’s one of the only tools we have to deal with how strong offense is.
And it’s not free; you forfeit about a third of your Heat bar and it also means you can’t hit a Heat engager and get your grey life back (which I didn’t hear them talk about anywhere but maybe I missed it).
They should probably be slower to allow more counterplay by throws and lows, maybe more like 20f instead of the 16f they are now, but I’m very scared of what this game would be like if they were much worse.
SuperAkouma calling out Jokas Feng defense "react to the jump and jab" is Heee_larious😅 You couldnt of even scripted that irony lol
I haven’t kept up with t8, is this in reference to how hard it was to check akumas demon flip?
@@zonk834I believe so, as there is some similarities. SuperAkouma did some downplaying with Akouma in T7, so it was cool seeing Joka poking fun.
When's the next episode? The new patch will definitely be a fun discussion. Subbed for this content!
This was needed. We need this and wavedash on a regular basis for peoples sanity.
Speaking on the Tekken lounge I'm not sure if this would be possible but it'd be cool if for major tournaments or online tournaments the lounge would get expanded and everyone could go in, sit down and spectate the tournys
I think overall I agree the most with SuperAkouma and Joey Fury. Good takes.
Thanks You for the great commentaries. Everyone made great points. I believe Speedkicks stated that T8 makes fighting unpredictable and keeps you on your toes. All this is true, while having tons of fun....been playing since T1 🙏🏿
Akouma and Arslan are COMPLETE opposite 😂 but it's great that those two were there so we can hear the contrast. I love this podcast and I want more
Great job by Spag, meanwhile Arslan and Joka acting like schoolkids
Such a good podcast, so informative and amazing guests
This is an awesome podcast! Great cast and great discussion.
The take I take from this talk is:
Arslan Ash/Joka didn't like the new systems and is struggling to shift his focus from defense to attack,and all the new systems are not fun and should be removed or redesigned.
Speedkick did adapt to the new system, and have some valid inputs.
Akuma is the one that have more adapted to the new systems and provided the more valid inputs, not looking down on everything new and hoping Tekken 7/6 is brought back.
So the take from Arslan is that Tekken 8 is a cassino with so many 50/50 that defense can be mostly ignored.
However Akuma/Speedkicks gives a much more insightful look at the game and just say that the ones still playing as Tekken 7 are just using the wrong tools for the scenarios provided.
Now the offense is so much greater that just turtle and hope for an opening is not enough, you need to proactively create it, this is using the many resources given, and the buffed moves like armor, grabs and even Heat as a safe tools, making the attack your shield.
Also a consensus was formed that much of the system problems is originated from the lack of balance of the game, making some mechanics overly frustrating which doesn't happen in mid tier characters.
Arslan agree somewhat but still thinks Tekken 8 is Las Vegas.
Perfectly summed up. Joey with great points to. Arslan stuck playing T7.
I was ready to hate but that was pretty accurate assessment especially of Ash who just wants to go back to turtle style..But let me add something..Knee,ash,Korean style etc..Don't realize they are the reason the game has changed..Them turtling 24/7 scared to attack.Scared to go in without doing a extreme safe poke.Then back to kbd it was a bunch of people scared to attack..So they literally put heat engagers so the players can "Engage" in the actual fight..Without having to be scared to do so
fully agree, arslan is just stuck in T7 habits and hasn't adapted yet. the rest had great opinions though.
Arslan and Joka are focused on winning tournaments so their takes are more representative of winning tournaments.....
SpeedKicks and SuperAkouma are not really considered consistent tournament winners or placing high in tournaments so they have a lot more fun/casual take.
My problem with "creating thode openings" using the tools you have is you dont create them, you already have them, ypu just have to use them, wich turn everything into a casino, is less about skill and more about using your pre-created tool to force the opponent to guess
i think they should keep the quick match like it is right now because it keeps the matchups going, however on the win/lose screen were you can choose rematch and so on there should be an option to go into a custom room or atleast "add player to friendslist".
Also, great job with this Spag. This series is awesome delving into the minds of the pros, the discourse climate, how you let everybody finish. Kudos, a definite follow and subscribe from me.
really really dop podcast man. as a new fighting game and tekken player in general i really enjoyd this talk
This is awesome content, hope this stays an ongoing thing
17:49 that is incredibly nerdy and I love it, Joey's reaction made me lol
really loved this! hope to see more soon
Subbed in hopes of catching more Heat Speak! 👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿
Great podcast waiting for more @Spag
I don´t think you can make Reinas ff2 one frame slower on block because it would make the move pretty much unusable. What if you make it a high? It would work like a Claudio/Alisa kind of WR2. It would not be mindless anymore for sure.
it wouldn't be unusable, dvj/jin/kazuya all have ff2 that are slower end every one of them are abusable and strong
@@АскарШуканов they are all save and work very differently. my point is that a jab would beat all options but the low SEN3+4 wich is launchpunishable and the powercrush SEN1,2 with is -14.
@@ZiegenMeisterV1 nvm, i thought you meant slower startup, but you meant what Speedkicks said about making it more negative on block by 1 frame. I agree
As i been playing more i feel one of the balance changes could be removing the animation when you activate heat and change it to normal power crush with linear tracking. I feel the animation from heat smash strongly prevents counter play
Great Podcast! You've earned a sub from me keep up the great work and can't wait for the next discussion!😎
I agreed with basically everything Arslan said
But I think Joeys overall outlook is more realistic of what is to come
Also on Speed saying mindless defense
Umm
I understand what he's trying to say
But even the MOST "mindless" defense
Doesn't compare to mindless offense
This game is for noobz - Arslan
Thanks for this
Enjoyed the show, waiting for more!
This is amazing! Hoping for more
Hope this goes up on Spotify!
Hope you do more of these
49:57 agree with Arslan but love the discussion
Super Akoumas answer at 2hour mark was perfect. What he shared there was such a good observation and he correctly challenged some of the romantic views of older fighting games. Fighting games are hard and the old ones also had insanely broken mechanics. T8 is still very new. After significant balance patches the game will only get more fun and more competitive. I think Arslan and Joka are too quick to speak bad about T8. They need to give it time. T8 will only improve
The only way tekken 8 can improve is by removing heat and chip. All the changes they made since T7 is counter to the Tekken formula
@@exiledhebrew1994 what's the Tekken formula and how did 2D in T7 fit it?
Heat and chip as overall mechanics are fun and interesting.
Like Joey and Akouma said, a lot of the balance issues in this game are just specific moves that are way too powerful.
@@exiledhebrew1994 So you want tekken 7 with better graphics?
@@aZ1d I want tekken 4 with better graphics.
really good podcast, keep em comin
My local has been shakin' up in terms of who's winning. There's DEFINITELY people whose play style is great for Tekken 8, but not for Tekken 7. Imo it's great to see. We've been playing the same game for 8 years, this change is great to be apart of
This is coming from someone who used to love to defend and watch my opponent in Tekken 7
Damn good podcast, subscribed.
I agree with Joey Fury, Joka and Arslan. Dont know how Speed can sit there and say Mindless Defense..Defense in any sport is inherently reactive, you cant be mindless while doing it compared to Offense which always has the initiative and can exploit loopholes/weaknesses in the Defense or even the game itself being played.
The basic flow of a match in T8 requires much less thinking than T7. Sure, with some characters you could play very lame and win in T7 BUT it wasnt the ONLY way to play those characters and come out winning. In T8 you NEED to be pressing the offensive which inherently dumbs down the options one needs to take throughout the course of a match. Its always about who can use their System Mechanic Shit the best and most efficiently rather than who can outplay the other with their characters base moveset and movement, like previous Tekkens. And, like Speed said, unbalanced moves exacerbate the issue.
This is coming from an Intermediate-High level player. It was fun and flashy the first month, but I'm tired of it. I dont want to play a Tekken game where my best choice is to always turn off my brain and press forward for 5+ years. They solved T7s issues by addressing specific characters and moves that allowed/incentivized people to play highly risk averse but then added frosting on top the Cake that no one asked for with Heat and Chip.
Lots of great insights
I'll also add my opinion on some of the things mentioned in this video because why not. For reference I'm a Raijin Bryan main so take my opinion however you want. I'm obviously no tournament player. I'm happy to have a conversation if anyone wishes.
I like CH and tracking grabs. I believe the CH window should be increased because at the moment it just feels guaranteed. This does make King particularly strong but within the context of the game it's helpful for everyone else.
I think it's the correct decision to have a blocked heat burst be +1 because it's a powerful defensive tool in a game all about aggression.
I think chip damage is fine and I like it, but it absolutely needs to be tuned on many moves, or characters as a whole need to be reworked. Hwoarang shouldn't be able to just run his game and take half your health within 10 seconds because you're waiting for your chance to duck or step and punish. It's too overwhelming. Obvs Azu and Drag WR moves need to be toned down. Chip is too much on certain moves.
High power crush heat engagers need to be punishable. Where's the counter play? They can do it, fail, and do another straight away. They're too strong. -10 minimum.
Low heat smashes should all be launch punishable. In heat you're able to mix a safe launching mid and with some characters a massive power low. The risk reward is so incredibly skewed in the attackers favour. It's completely unfair.
I think magic 4s should be reintroduced. In a game all about aggression it hurts too much taking away one of the best fast generic defensive tools. It would also go thematically with the game of 'aggression' because it would insentivise the defender to press because they have a strong CH button.
There are balance changes that need to happen obviously, but this is just my opinion on some of the mechanics talked about in this podcast.
I absolutely agree with Speedkicks.... The top level game play in tekken 7 was get a life lead by poking the legs a few times then back dash until the timer ran out.
God forbid you force a fighting game player to actually FIGHT. Now you gotta actually make reads and get good and draining the opponents life bar before they drain yours.... If you're playing a fighting game, and you're a top player losing to mindless offense.... then there's something wrong.
MAYBE..... MAYBE.... they should make punishes stronger in tekken and that would solve everything. But even then if someone is doing mindless offense you have the same ability to do it back... therefore if your defense is better you're going to win......
And defense as in... blocking correctly, side stepping correctly... NOT back dashing until the timer runs out.
Speed kicks wasn't talking from a casual player perspective IDK why he conceded that.... He's talking from a pro's perspective, he finds it less fun in a high level game to just back dash on a life lead and letting the clock go to 0... that doesn't happen in casual games.
And spag... if Arslans defense is much better than yours, and you take games off him when you wouldn't in tekken 7 that simply means his offense is lacking...
What an eloquent speaker Joey Fury is man!
Yes! Hyped for this!!
it would be nice when you would have some more timestamps for certain topics.
2:41:30 I absolutely agree with the Kimg points. I played at a local tournament with Bryan and i cam confidently say hes the best counter hit character in thr game. 10 frame homing counter hir unbreakable throw that does 70 damage with a wall around. Counter hit confirmable df+2,1. Character is stupid. I couldnt step and couldnt throw out any slow loves. King warps matchups and its not heslthy.
This was a GREAT episode!! 🔥🔥🍿🍿🍿
really great show my guy
Surprised that COUP DE GRAS and EXPULSION weren't mentioned even once.
It’s funny cuz all the critique of the state of the game, you can point to Zafina and she’s already that way out of the box. They can make fair balance but they chose not to but only to a small few of the cast on drop
Grabs for someone new to the game and reached purple ranks (so still casual) find grabs really annoying to break - should be better in game tutorial
I'm a dedicated Tekken player, I'm probably at intermediate play, maybe? But throw breaks, forget about it.
This is awesome do more of these
No spag no buy.
Arslan's sitting there like "I can't believe what I'm hearing right now." But his perspective is also probably the most skewed since I guess, judging by his reactions, everyone in Pakistan is just a beast lol. Also, it's hilarious that he says Speedkick's opinion that defense was too easy in Tekken 7 is taking the side of "casual players".
Even if Heatburst is like a life raft in a sea of busted offense, it still feels dumb because there's so little possible counterplay in many situations. It's just another "brainless" mechanic thrown in to deal with a bunch of other "brainless" options, which also nets you a full combo if you happened to hit them out of the air.
The super freeze on the heatburst is definitely that way since if it happened right when you pressed the buttons, and then those 16~ frames of start up happened, a lot if not all characters would just be able to do a low or throw on reaction if they're in range. But the way it works just looks really unintuitive, since games don't usually have the super freeze occur well into the actual start up of the move. If anything, maybe move the super freeze pose out of the start up, and turn it into an on-hit/block pose which I feel would look a lot more natural in Tekken.
With chip, idk, it feels like they picked the moves and the chip values out of a hat. Like why on Earth does Dragunov's homing attack do FOURTEEN damage on block, and that's when he's not in heat.
Also, I think the nerf to Azucena's wr3,2 might almost be a sidegrade rather than a straight nerf. Before if you sidestep ducked it she'd stay in front of you for an easy launch, but now she's just going to fly 20 feet past you and be quite hard to punish, especially since the camera can be really unpredictable in those situations. The place where I'd see it being way worse is at the wall.
It's tough I think for them to basically implement this kind of meter system, since characters in Tekken were pretty much designed to be powerful without it. Akuma and Geese were designed from the ground up to have a meter, and wouldn't be nearly as good without them. T8 Dragunov though would still be terrifying whether he had a heat meter or not. Anyway, now if certain moves or abilities have a meter cost, they have to be stronger, and significantly so in order to make spending that resource feel good. But making certain moves in Tekken significantly stronger than what they already were can just drop them into free or braindead territory.
Basically, there's just a bunch of moves in the game that cover too many bases, or give too much reward for very little risk. In a current 2D game, you'll be hard pressed now to find a safe on block invincible DP even with meter, because that move would cover too many options. I think right now in T8, there's a bunch of attacks that are basically like that.
Completely agreed. Its unfortunate that the Tekken team has put themselves into this situation because considering their track record with balancing, they wont figure this shit out for 2 more years. At which point many people, pros especially, will be fed up with the game. Having an arcade release shielded most people from all this BS but now everyone will see it and how long it takes them to achieve a semblance of balance and by the time they do it might be too late.
He's been scrub quoting on Twitter. Glad he's being filtered, his reign was far too long.
@@ATC43it's only 2 months in. Quit dooming or just don't play the game.
I could make a very good argument for mindless defense. Speedkicks just didn't want to get jumped.
Amazing podcast😁
what about an heat burst that kinda acts like lee's slide in terms of frames in 3 variations. +1 , -3 & -6 depending on what range you hit the burst. Maybe shown thru colored hit indicators. kinda like the idea
I definitely disagree with nerfing ff2 3 because a jab beats multiple options already. The only option you have to beat a jab outside of that is useing a launchable low. And majority of reinas kit is sidestepable. Anything that catches you sidestepping isn't very dangerous.
I don't really get why so many are upset with Heat Bursts. I think Heat Smash, Heat chip and Heat Engage are all more oppressive Heat mechanics.
The main difference between Heat Bursts and Armor Moves are:
1. Better on block: The knockback is so big that it doesn't really matter if it's +1 or -11.
If Heat Bursts were -9, you would be forced to back off. The opponent would have to use a + frame move that can bridge that gap, if it can even reach that distance plus a backstep. But is this what we want? Isn't it just a normal armor move if it doesn't reset on block?
2. Can interrupt an incoming attack: This is really the main strength of a Heat Burst. It's great as a panic move if you only have a bit of HP left. The fact that you can interrupt lows can especially be a lifesaver. But since it does so little damage, I'd say a standard armor move trades HP better on average.
3. You can use it to get a bit more combo dmg: This is pitiful, especially when you consider that you're sacrificing a defensive Heat Burst or a Heat Engage 50/50.
I think the intent behind the Heat Burst is to escape pressure and restart the round. It's a way to decrease the amount of rounds that snowballs into wins. It makes characters like Dragunov less strong. Anything between +1 to -1 on block would be fine imo. At -5, the move feels pointless to me.
I think 99% of the reason why some are afraid of Heat Burst is because of Heat Smashes. Them getting access to powerful, quick and rangey moves makes that -1 feel much more intimidating. They are the moves that maybe needs to be balanced, but to an extent I think we have to learn how to properly respect the moves.
I think the Heat Engager is much stronger than Heat Burst. You heal chip, you get a free 50/50, and you get to use your full heat bar in the middle of a round when you're not afraid of dying.
The purpose of the Heat Engager is to encourage chunkier moves who are used outside of poking range, making the game into less of a poke-fest. Some characters, like Paul are clearly meant to lean heavy on Heat Engagers to get early leads. Heat Burst is a compensation to defensive players.
superakouma amazing message, message of hope.
Heat bursts and powercrushes are what I would call "mindless defense"
On the topic of heat burst, I get that this would screw with the armor hierarchy, but I think heat burst just shouldn't get armor. That way, you have to demonstrate your command of Tekken fundamentals in order to defend and be able to find an opening to use it and it wouldn't be just a mindless get off me move into strong pressure.
Or maybe it can just be the lowest on the armor totem pole? Or just have the armor start up later do it can't be such a panic button?
impressive line up
keep it up
I sense a lot of beef on this couch lmfao
1. Heat burst should be -3 on block but beat everything as it is(win even throws and lows).
2. Throw is fine to be homing but only generic Throws where the animations match the breaks. The command throws that have unique break and ignore the animations SHOULD NOT homing
3. Throw Counter is Stupid but Throw Power crush is Awesome.
4. Heat engager power crush / Chip damage / Heat smash is more of Move specific problem than system problem.
Insightful ahh podcast
Please make Heat a resource to be managed between rounds, instead of a tool to be spammed. Dmg taken/dealt increases, power crushes consumes heat. Engagers and Burst only available at full bar 🙌
Please have main man and phidx on sometime
Great content Spag, but you shoulda let Akouma finish his point when it came to throw breaks. It felt disrespectful.
Speed goes to 2.5x in the middle of talking and comback to normal 10 word later
I miss watching Joka play Hachi
More of this
Watching Arslan and Joka laughing and having fun for the entirety of this episode was wholesome ❤
Wait... you can grab punish Azucena after you block her armor, high Heat Activator???
speed kicks wants smash bros in tekken. "MiNdLeSs DeFeNsE"
+Huge W for spag for this one btw. Yall gotta let superakouma talk 🤣 man got interrupted 50 times
Joey also got interrupted a ton 💀