"The Game is For Noobs" - Arslan Ash vs Speedkicks
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- Опубликовано: 30 мар 2024
- Arslan Ash, Joey Fury, Speedkicks and Joka discuss whether TEKKEN 8 is a game currently designed for noobs and if Tekken 7 was too boring and mindless!
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Joey Fury hit the nail on the head
he clarified and pointed out the problem in an understandable way but didnt talk about possible routes for solutions like if increasing healthpools or other tangible stat changes. This is what devs do and the benefit is extremely hard to foresee
@@Ttangko_ it us not up to us to make solutions
Playing defensive style is way harder than playing offence.
I think playing high level offense against a high level defensive player and not dying and actually winning is also extremely hard. I’m not going to miss the ToD low parry/magic 4, the plethora of ch launchers. I do believe balancing will fix 85% of the main issues.
@@thorcolossus _"I think playing high level offense against a high level defensive player and not dying and actually winning is also extremely hard"_
It's not. Not in Tekken 8. In Tekken 6 it was. Why? Because you didn't get +7(Drag) or +5(Bryan) from a hatchet. You got +2(Bryan).
@@KulaGGin I do believe better balancing will fix 85% of these issues. I will critique the game, but I won’t turn into a hater because it’s popular gang up on a fighting game that’s two months old. Now I know this patch was kinda ass. I’m not blind. Hopefully, they’ll walk back some of these new changes. They have before in the past.
@@thorcolossus _"but I won’t turn into a hater because it’s popular gang up on a fighting game that’s two months old"_
What? The $80 product is ass. It doesn't matter if it's 2 months old. You need to have your standards checked. When you pay money for a product, you should expect quality. Just because it's 2 months old is no excuse. They are actually 35 years in development: the first game was *released* in 1994 and was in development years before it.
If you didn't notice, game quality is ass nowadays all over the place and gamers are eating it and asking for more.
Even if we ignore the meme balancing, let's see the technical part of the game: game works slower if your FPS is lower than 60, game starts to freeze if opponent's FPS is lower than 60, game skips inputs, DX12 fatal errors, game doesn't allow to unlock FPS by default like any other adequate product and we need to use a mod to do it. And that's from the top of my head.
@@thorcolossus _"Now I know this patch was kinda ass. I’m not blind. Hopefully, they’ll walk back some of these new changes. They have before in the past."_
It's the game that's ass, not the patch. They just broke one of two things in a patch, a hotfix will fix it. I completely agree with everything Arslan and Kkokkoma said: this is a meme of a game, like a casino. Not real Tekken.
_"I do believe better balancing will fix 85% of these issues"_
You believe? You know something we don't? Or do you just believe like in a god with no evidence?
Have you played Tekken 7? In fact, we have all the evidence to conclude that the balance issues will never get fixed like they never were in Tekken 7. Yeah sure they nerfed a move here and there but the general meta in the game didn't change. Maybe they'll nerf Drag's hatchet from +7 to +5 but it won't really change anything. We'll still have +17 heat engagers into broken shit like guaranteed taunt on Bryan and shit like that.
Can everything be fixed with better balancing? Sure. It's very easy to do, too.
Completely agree with Joey. Mindless offense is way easier to execute than ‘mindless defense’. It’s always been easier to attack than to defend, in any game, any sports. Once the offense gets rolling, it feels like im defending against a tank. The reward for the first knock down is too much imo
I seriously feel like if I make my offense a bit more annoying and scrubby I can get the last promo between purple and blue.
It hasn’t all gotta be about tidiness. I’m basically doing this in fundamentals.
I’m not even sure I suit Devil Jin. I play him like he’s Kazuya.
I still been near the promo. If I grab more so I don’t have to hellsweep so often. I can get it.
Risk reduction matters so much.. Why should I have to go launch punishable all the time?
huh? why would you ask me? I didn't ask you to go for launch punishable strings all the time lol
Also wtf is mindless defence really?
@@sarvanuchoudhury155Exactly. Mindless defense isn't a thing. Execution, measuring distance, reading opponent's pattern, anticipating the moves, punish. It takes so much damn work lmao
@@Acrophyllia that's why I never liked Speedkicks as a Tekken player. His opinions and views about the game has always been trash...
I had no idea this podcast existed, what a bunch of legends on my screen all at once
And then there’s Super Akuma 😂
@@bigc122 SA is a legend in his own way
@@bigc122 arguably top 1 atleast top 3 player in the third strongest region during tekken 7
It's his first one definitely need more tekken podcasts
I am not on your screen so they missing legends
I will never understand the idea that defensive Tekken isn’t fun to watch or play. It’s what got me into competitive Tekken personally. You try the game first and feel how stiff and sluggish the movement is. And then you see pro play and pros dashing and zapping across the screen looking for an opening, playing mind games through only movement. Absolute Bruce Lee shit.
I will always remember the EVO 2019 Arslan Kazumi vs Knee Kazuya infinite azure match. I had just played the game in an arcade in Japan and saw that and went “oh, so that’s actual tekken”. Incredibly motivating.
I feel the same way
For me it was JDCR vs Knee at rev major 2017, that match so legendary
exactly. i always thought it wasn't the style that was boring but more so the characters. seeing the same characters in the top 8 like feng, akuma and kuni is what made it kinda lame
Defensive tekken is kinda boring after some time because they just use good pokes to win the game . Watching same pokes over and over repeated is kinda boring.
I quit playing Tekken 8, not because it is too challenging, but because I don't find it enjoyable at all. I also dislike the fact that the execution has been simplified. I used to enjoy improving my execution, but now it feels boring to perform moves and combos. Additionally, the fact that Korean Backdash is not as effective as it used to be is disappointing.
Arslan’s face when speedkicks says backdash for 60 seconds is hilarious lmao. I like that his feelings seemed validated at the end though with Joey Fury kinda seeing both sides since he’s good at that fuzzy low parry style, and sees how Arslan’s style took a lot of work and dedication to perfect at the highest level of gameplay.
Was a great podcast, really looking forward to the next one
This is just a clip, but I feel like what maybe they didn't understand about Speedkicks' perspective is that he isn't talking about the player's ability on defense opposed to offense, he's talking about at the system level. Theoretically if you were going to the absolute poles and either every attack was auto-guarded or every attack was unblockable, in the former's case zero meaningful interaction could occur. However, for the latter, with the advent of movement and spacing, you still can find there to be a mindgame around the game's interactions (i.e. Divekick.)
That being said, that's why movement needs to be strong on both axes, not just sideways, so that backdash can help mitigate "mindless" pressure and whiff punishing will be more valuable (and limiting tracking on throws.) This will still make for an aggressive game with how powerful offense is, and even help increase interactions (so long as they tone down some of the damage.)
Speed is a Hwoarang player. Is anyone surprised he prefers mindless offense? Haha
Haha that's so funny and true but only to a certain extent, hwoarang like yoshi at high level play, being offensive is very difficult
I gree with speed kicks 100%
Walking up to someone... poking them a few times then back dashing until the timer runs out is not fighting games..... These poor top level pro's being force to ACTUALLY make reads, have good execution, and better decision making and ACTUALLY being forced to FIGHT in a fuckin fighting game...... oh I feel terrible for them.
Wdym...am a hwoarang main amd i hate to core t8....i like playing a defensive hwo...if some don't know what mean i can explain
@@upplsuckimcool16 The problem is that when you increase aggression while limiting movement options, it becomes more of a gambling game than a tactical exchange. Ideally, reads should be based on timing and conditioning, and players should actually earn the advantageous positions. I also don't know what you're talking about regarding the execution because TK8 made several things easier.
@@TonyMishima92 Well to be fair, this is why i think 2/3 games in a tournament is fuckin stupid...
In theory I like the idea of a game that favours offence over defence, but I think it could be implemented better
Tekken will NEVER favor offense over defense.... It's impossible. The only way to do that is to throw out frame specific punishes... and reduce the move list by like 4000 moves.
In a game with 50 characters and about 5000+ moves with frame specific punishes and direction specific side steps to specific strings, it's impossible for it to favor offense.
They just saying this because they're used to offense not being so strong and they can't just leg kick people then back dash until the timer runs out anymore...
Also... if the game favors offense, then by default it must also need very good defense.... It's just that legacy knowledge is less of a factor in tekken 8 and being a skillful fighting game player with good reads is becoming more of a priority.
game needs tweaking for sure. Heat needs to be toned down and more punishable. A technique that strong should not be so easily accessible and strong at the same time. People are reaching purple that have no place being there now
Purple? There are absolute noobs in blue ranks right now
Been playing since 7 and I've never touched blue, always got my promo to blue with jin denied by better players. Meanwhile, there's mf's that started with T8 and are already in blue🤦♂️
I regularly encounter tekken kings and emperors with massive fundamental flaws outside of abusing the most oppressive offense flow-chart and vortexes on their character.
Dude, this was the best watch of my year already. This is so good for the community!
Wtf is mindless defense?? How can seeing what my opponent is doing and countering it with proper movement or spacing be mindless?
He means being extremely passive and not taking risks lol
@@GhostHyperhexyeah it feels like that sometimes in tekken(7 mostly) unless you get specific match ups. Whereas other series defense had a cost across the roster. sf3rd and 4th you were always taking a risk with a low(ish) stun meter, chip, etc. and then parry or focus leaving you vulnerable if not intentional. Guilty gear uses your meter to use stronger defense techniques, and has negative penalty. SNK has just defend and a flurry of weird mechanics in older titles. Etc.
Damage and chip is definitely too high in 8 but reducing the want to just stand there and block everything cause there's no cost is understandable.
I feel that he means that if you get the life lead in 7 and play safe (jabs, df 1, magic 4,). If not just stand there back dash and read a move go for a counter hit launcher that not launch punishable or low parry that gives a full combo. The game is "lame" to some people.
Personally, I liked 7 other than 2d characters and a low parry that gives a full combo. There are other things, but those are the things on the top of my list.
To be honest its more that 8 doesn't have neutral. The opponent and you have the same goal. Run up to your opponent to mixup, mash, and 50/50 them to death. Without fast ch launchers or decent pushback on block this game will stay a boring mashfest.
It's mindless offensive in reverse lol not hard
The developer wants to make tekken easier for newbies to play. That is their intention.
And the existing player base thats been playing since T1 isn't going to be into that type of gameplay, it makes sense people wouldn't like T8
That's the thing, the developer knows that the existing player base is going to Play T8 regardless, so the hedge to bets on selling to new consumers.@@epyonsystem1869
I definitely see where both sides are coming from and I feel like there could be a middle ground that helps T8 be a great game for both pros and casuals.
First of all, I like the idea of T8 having a new and unique identity from previous Tekkens. I think the idea of heat and the way they made the characters more unique from each other was a good idea. I just think some system changes and tweaks need to be made with heat to make it less mindless.
I’m with Speedkicks in that we need to see a rebalancing of the cast. If the super top tiers like Drag and Azu get brought down to a more even level with the rest of the cast, we may have a clearer understanding of what’s wrong with the base mechanics of the game.
I’m with Arslan and Joey though that there are a few base mechanic decisions that need changing, mostly to do with heat. I think overall there needs to be less canned mixups, especially coming out of stuff like a heat burst or smash. If I block a King or Drag heat smash, I shouldn’t also have to hold a mixup afterward and pray I guessed correctly to defend it. These type of mixups should take more skill to pull off. I think if some of the properties of heat were toned down and it was more punishable if used incorrectly, I think a lot of pros would be happier with the game.
The amount of chip needs to be toned down. I don’t mind chip being there but it’s absurd how much health your opponent can gain back by mashing and how much health you can lose by blocking. Especially with stuff like Jun’s heat smash.
It really all depends on how Bandai Namco decide to steer this game. I think Tekken 8 is a really fun but really flawed game (not even getting into the plugging and microtransactions etc). It could be an amazing competitive game but it’s gonna need some serious balancing work and system tweaks to heat. I remember how much everyone hated Tekken 7.0 and eventually T7 became a lot of people’s favorites. Hopefully, T8 can follow a similar path 🙏
I agree with this all, Heat smashes should all be universally 18F minimum and not give ridiculous frames on block, At most I think just making them 0 or no more than like plus 2 or 3 is fine. Chip should strictly just be tied to the few moves they're intrinsically on instead of being added to every attack in Heat. But the base game is genuinely great--Sidestepping being better feels nice.(though they do need to fix some of the jank tracking heat engagers have) This game has the potential to reach higher than Tekken 7, and I want it to. Vanilla Tekken games have never been polished, and while I've seen people make the argument that it's not right nor fair to release a 70$ game that isn't polished--a piece of me feels happy to know I at least can experience T8 instead of waiting a year or two watching Arcade gameplay on RUclips. Praying just as much that T8 can become something truly magnificent.
MORE OF THIS CONTENT PLEASE! JOEY IS GODLIKE AT articulating his thoughts
“My issue with the balance right now..is people who wouldn’t be good at anything ever win.”
- Speedkicks
😂
I enjoyed hearing everyone's opinions on the state of the game. Cool clip.
Before I asked WHERE IS THE FULL EPISODE!! I looked on the channel 😅😅 🔥🔥🙌🏿🙌🏿
As a total noob I find power crushes, burst and rage art to be the worst parts of the game. It never feels like I have frame advantage and I feel like I'm the one deal with a mixup even when I'm on the offense. There seems to be too many ways to gain a massive advantage even when you're meant to be pressured. Why are safe powercrushes also heat engagers where not only have you been given the damage if it lands but now a free mixup too?
Mindless defense is an oxymoron. It doesn’t exist. Speed kicks dropped the ball on this one 😊
There definitely was some merit to his point. Magic 4s and low parry giving full combos was stupid. Some characters were like Kuni were also overturned. She could play safe with 2,2 and mixup with set dashes. But T7 only need some adjustments not agressive gameplay push this drastically.
He always says stuff like that while trying to sound like he knows more than you
Then says stuff like
"This games actually harder"
when everyone knows this game has been dumbed down to synthetic interaction
The skill gap continues to lower, but in this game its free falling lol
Of course the game feels harder when every interaction is a get out of jail card or put them in jail lmao
@@ITRiBUTEI He's the ultimate contrarian
@@ITRiBUTEI The difference btween high level tekken and low level tekken is MILES AND MILES apart.... anyone who isn't at the highest rank of tekken don't really play in a way that the points these guys are making would apply to. Well... the points these guys are making doesn't apply to people at lower or middle ranks...
The fighting style of the high ranks is to space, throw out leg kick and a few mids... get the life lead then mindlessly backdash and threaten something without ever doing anything just to run the clock to zero with a life lead. poor top level pro's actually forced to fight and make reads until a life bar gets to zero..... poor top level pro's actually have to FIGHT in a fighting game.....
Speed kicks is fuckin spot on.
8:39 Damn, Joka is spitting the truth, literally....
I agree with arslan. It gets annoying sometimes. It’s literally starts with powercrush, heat smash , heat engager and grabs
What's different about powercrush I honestly don't know
@@tongpoo8985 powercrush moves absorb attack animations
@@xauthority ? How is it different from tekken 7?
@@tongpoo8985 not different. Its the same
But it’s cool someone running away the whole round? Speedkick hit the needle on its head running away all day it’s a 3d fighting game that why I prefer Vf force you to engaged
The Heat system mainly looks boring and mindless because it resets for every single round so we keep seeing Heat Burst, Heat Engagers, Heat Smash and Heat Dash very often. I think there is a middle ground that I have heard others mentioned. The Heat Gauge should have to fill up when your attacks are blocked or doing damage and whatever amount is taken into the next round. Meter management would come into play like Street Fighter.
That's an interesting idea! I tend to agree that it's boring to see them every round. I wonder if the Tekken team will make a more subtle change though, like adjusting the properties of the moves to make them more less safe on block, slower startup frames etc.
A regular strike to fill meter was never going to happen, it's just a balancing nightmare in a game like tekken, they spent 6 yrs balancing only akuma. Imagine having to manage that with Nina and Hwoarang next to the likes of jack Bryan, or kuma.
The more aggressive types would generally benefit more.
Capcom ditched it in sf6 for a reason.
It eliminated one layer of strategy and balancing these devs have to deal on with.
"like in street fighter" is something we do not need in tekken...simple as that. starting with akuma and ending with "Meter management"
Tekken 7 was just using same pokes over and over which was kinda boring.
@@stuntkid1870yup
I played Tekken Tag 1 on PS2, and then now Tekken 8. Super interesting to hear both Arslan and Speed's perspectives on how the series has changed over time. I appreciate interactivity and I share the perspective (both Speed and Arslan agree here) that the level of reward for each interaction should be toned down.
In a lot of my games, I feel like I don't see enough of a player's tendencies to be able to figure them out and adapt. Possibly a skill issue on my end, it seems like one of us wins before enough interactions have happened for the mind games to really begin. My favorite moments are when I play multiple rematches against the same opponent so that we both have a profile on each other and start mixing in counterplay into our original "autopilot" gameplan.
IMO, keep all the same moves/mechanics, just turn down the numbers across the board and we'd all get to see more of our opponents play and be able to make more reads.
That said I'm a red rank player so take my insight with a grain of salt, I've been having a ton of fun and will continue to have fun regardless of whether a few pro players like or dislike an aspect of the game.
They dumbed down this game to please new players and I think it's fucking disgusting, glad you guys are talking about it 🔥🎉
Agree with AA and JF ! There is no braindead defense, you have to work hard
While in offense just spam strong moves given by your character
Also speedkick plays Hwoarang so yeah I would’ve bet he loves offense
Speed kicks is making himself sound like a Muppet here in my opinion, im not sure if he really believes what hes saying or hes trying to be divisive ..i think joey fury hit the nail on the head, he explained speedkicks opinion so well.
wearing sunglasses inside carrys you
So having to learn to KBD, Fuzzy guard, block and punish etc... is brain dead in the same way one button aggression is? I guess, seems logical. lol
Game changed. Get over it plus you still do those things. Its just a new game.
@@SD-mi2vcnobody wants to adapt. They rather complain because their old technique doesn't work anymore.
@@superbadisfunmy😂 Facts mad about the gatekeeping knowledge people who hide behind that can get touch
scrubs like the three stooges above me are the downfall of our society
@@antoniofrazier6412 you can literally look this stuff up no one is gatekeeping
There is alot more stuff which pissing me off but for the sake of the topic..the worst things are powercrush heat engagers.. That should never be a thing or powercrush Setups that lead into safe heat engager like Steve.. DB 1+2 into sonic fang. Iam a Steve main and safe to say i Use it too, it just doesnt feel fair to play super reckless just because i can mash a powercrush here and there for the safe follow up which heals me back up.
Its a nice idea to have heat like a little overboost Tool but if you play more serious..higher ranks or competitively where ppl respect your shit..heat just stalls so much time.
Nice podcast, thank you Speedkicks for coming up with the most braindead takes in existence, gotta be one of my favorite genders.
What if they changed the health to 150% to compensate the damage of the one time heat attack being rewarding?
One of their priorities was definitely making it more engaging as a casual spectator, but I'm with Joey in that I appreciate high level defense so much more and still find that type of gameplay engaging to watch. Those types of sets with great defensive players were always really intense. I can still see from the casuals perspective though where they could find it quite boring.
I agree with Joey here i don't think there can be such thing as Mindless defense unless holding back just blocks everything. It takes time and effort to learn for a "Lame" play style. I personally like setplay /stance characters so I'm not the target for that play style but i think removing play styles or making them not as effective was intentional. They did say that they made Tekken 8 more offensive because they don't like watching two characters "Do Nothing" so you can also just do nothing when someone else has a heat smash i guess.
There is something as mindless defense. Anything which does not have a dynamic purpose is mindless. Tekken 7 was to take a life lead and go full on mindless defense. There was little you could do once dragunav running 2 got nerfed in first season.
@@Iam1nsane i guess we just have different definitions of mindless. To me whether it's dynamic or not Isn't what I think mindless means. To me Mindless means just that, you don't have to think you just do. Even if it's to a tiny margin you have to think about your opponents positioning and what threat they can potentially pose to you. I agree that some characters don't have to think about defending as much but I would not go as far as to say mindless because just sitting in neutral and running away is a strategy you need to perform well and there isn't a clear answer that works for every character and play style. Laming a zoner in a game with chip won't help you stay in the lead unless you have put them in a situation where the time doesn't matter. Just randomly pressing buttons is something you can get away with even against good players, you can't Mindlessly back dash or sidestep block against a good opponent without knowing what they are capable of. Try Mindlessly sidestepping or backsteping against a good Brian player who wants to lock you down. I think you have a valid point tho I don't like things that don't serve a dynamic purpose as well. I guess I'd like to get your perspective of what you think is and isn't dynamic to understand you better bro 💪🏿. You seem like a chill person and I'd like to trade ideas.
@@themystikone but don’t you see the contradiction? You are getting into depth about playing lame defense to say it isn’t mindless, but dismissing high level aggression as “randomly pressing buttons”. At high level, you aren’t just mashing. Attacking has the same level of intension as you described for a defensive player. Everyone isn’t equally as good in playing aggressive. That’s a skill difference, not a bunch of noobs getting an unfair advantage
@@jimdino77 idk if that's the same. Throwing a button and being defensive is wildly different and takes different skills. It is much easier to attack Mindlessly than it is to defend "Mindlessly" I agree that there is much more to attacking but everyone can understand how to make pressure tight. Mindless flowcharts are wayy easier to cultivate than a strong defense but. The way I described it wasn't a good example I think so you are valid and thanks for pointing that out
@@jimdino77say what you want, but even at the highest level defending against an azu that can loop wr32s or drag wr2 is much harder to defend against with than being the one looping wr32s. "mindless" defense doesnt exist in tekken unless youre unaware of all the options available to you in certain situations. that's what makes defending in TK much harder than most offense in TK.
He is right this game is for scrubs. Ppl tend to say stop crying but I think its better to complain about this so there is a chance it improves later. Why be a fanboy?
Nah they whining
I agree and have been complaining more lately. I've been supporting Tekken since the beginning and honestly I feel like T8 is a slap in the face to a lot of long time fans (like me).
@@VizitorQ1fuck you. Its not all about you. Stop gatekeeping
It is whining because they still stuck on t7 instead of adapting. It's easier to complain.
Have you tried getting good?
Easy fix, make rage art and heat be used once per match
I forgot how good Arslans english is, was really nice to hear him speak on the subject
What is the difference between a game where one player puts the other in non-interactive situations via holding the life lead (ie: backdashing and fuzzy guarding/parrying) and a game where one player repeatedly puts the other player in non-interactive situations through brain dead offense? I might be misremembering but I believe Speedkicks also thought that there was nothing wrong with Lars getting a 50+ dmg 12f punish when Season 2 dropped because "how often are you -12 against Lars?" I also can't understand someone saying the T7 poking style wasn't fun to watch when T7 blew up more than basically any game that came before it in terms of tournament entrants and viewers.
People complained about rage drives and rage arts and instead of rethinking these systems, Namco just gave every character like 6 rage drives and made rage arts safer. We asked for movement to be buffed in T7 and instead we got nerfed backdashes and homing throws.
I feel like another good way would be for heat engager to not exist at all.. but every character now have heat as a default... then whenever they are doing a certain power up moves.. their heat meter will deplete and when you are in a burnout state.. your movement back dash and ss is severely reduced.. as a contrast though buff the back dash a bit on normal...
I use a lot of different moves, I’d say I use probably 40 different moves in rotation
Facts with that initial comment.
All high power crushes should be at least -10....
Similar to Fengs B1 and Steves B1.
Trash take
Im actually not an arslen ash fan but i totally agree with him
I'm almost at Fujin rank just by the Heat mechanic.
Heat should be a comeback mechanic or a meter you build overtime not something you can dish out from the getgo.
But that's the point of the game. Idk why people can't adapt that. Once you use it gone anyways. That's the difference from this and games like sf.
@@superbadisfunmy tekken is a 3D fighter game. The heat system combined with the other mechanics introduced in this game effectively made this more a 2D game forcing more situations where you have to take a mixup.
Its not that we cannt adapt but the heat system in its current iteration is not good, there are other nagging issues with the game that need to be looked at like combos in general and throws being homing as well as safe powercrushing heat engagers.
Then it would be just vtrigger like sf5
@@heretickishyt well if you put it that way, right now its basically a vtrigger mechanic without the need to build meter for it.
Imagine you didnt need to build meter in sf5 and just have vtrigger from the getgo, be pretty silly and yet this is acceptable in tekken why?
@@henrynguyen4315 indeed! This is my 1st tekken & i'm loving it! I guess they wanted a tekken title easier for new comers
Problem is not that its not same tekken. Its is and its that the offense is to strong so you have to spam it before opponent or you wont be able to handle neutral. Heat is completely brainded. Time should be reduced and properties aswell. They will do it after a while
I believe the issue is that anybody can abuse the tools, mechanics of the game, and be successful. The fact that anybody can do it is the problem AA and Fury has with T8.
Top players have an inherent bias. They are very attached to the old mechanics and they won a lot with them, so they will always defend the old ways. If you want to introduce something new, better to ask the mid tier players about it because they're not so attached to the old stuff but they're still dedicated enough to give a good opinion
You can tell how much Arslan loves Tekken.
Agree with Arslan. Win or lose it feels like 8 is actively trying to reduce the skill gap in matches which sucks
The problem is everyone can play offensive but not everyone can play defensive for playing defensive you need high knowledge what to do when to do and how to do you basically have plan to play
8:39
was that a ghad damn spit
6:15 LOL Arslan looked over art dude like "Holy ShXt !, mindless Defense???""
I haven't played Tekken ever. Just a spectator. And as soon as I watch the first Tekken 8 match. I post that The thing which made Tekken different from all other fighting games is totally gone now.
Fix t8? Buff sidestep and provide less track to moves.
Speedkick is wrong. Defense in T7 is by nature not braindead as you need alot of game-knowledge to even know the strings and where to duck and sidestep, and also the skill of having the reaction-time to do that. T8 is has alot of hail-mary moves and desperate one-button mechanics, powercrush etc which can lead to victory. Now *that's* truly braindead.
Anyone who thinks mindless defense is boring , check out JackieTran VS Kenbou with Aris commentary
Lower the heat starter range would be a great start.
Make high power crush moves -10.
Give more whiff recovery frames from safe moves.
Yeeeees but I'd also love something done with heat smash on block. A one button brain dead activation and smash into 50/50 is just silly.
Yeah those high-power rush are stupid and so fast... At least -10 is the way to go.
Respect for Joey Fury! This guy is a legend!
tekken 8 favors bad players that should be good for EU and NA pro scene TOOBASED
This is so true and so sad to me. The concept of skill will soon be a thing of the past if things continue. Heat does waaaaay too much and is 1 button
That’s why they got variety streamers into it
Agreed with what Arslan and Joe’s take. But there is another huge issue in tekken 8, and that is the one button Heat burst that acts like a “momentum killer”, where you can just easily spam it in the middle of opponent’s attack, get frames, get yourself in heat AND do damage to your opponent all at the same time. They absolutely have to take that out of the game. The only way to enter heat should be if you connect those special moves, or if we you go manually but allow yourself to get hit. This third option is absolutely broken and kills the pacing, balance and momentum of the game
Maybe unpopular but I feel like heat should be an actual meter you have to build and not a free resource you get every round.
Joey and Arslan know what's up
I thought that was mayweather on the thumbnail
why can't we just get a game that favors both offence and defense AT LAUNCH?
Not laughing with you speed kicks laughing at you
Ultimately I don't think it really matters whether the game favors defense or offense. Scrubs like me will still be scrubs. Pros will adapt and win as always. It's just another style
true. They just don't like it now coz it's new and it's a lot of information to process. But that's just how it's been in any other games as well.
The most correct take here. Arslan doesnt want the game to change of course because he found most success with the old style. Has to work harder now.
@@user-wg1gd5gg7sthink there's more to it than that. If you're just looking at gameplay, 8 is a very simplified version of the game which runs the risk of having a much shorter shelf life as a result. Evo will be telling but Tekken has always had a lot to it but this one seems a lot more brain-dead to me
@@jdizzle1779 There's also more to it than simply saying the game is braindead/dumbed down. Speedkicks is right when he says it's more of a different playstyle.
For example, there's more depth compared to T7 in the sense of resource management. The combo system is deeper now. The decision of using heat burst or going for a heat engager to recover more life or gain more heat meter. The recoverable life system altogether. Using moves specifically for chip damage. Deciding when to heat dash and the different rewards for doing so on hit (different heat engagers give different dash follow up scenarios). Etc.
There is definitely a romanticised version of Tekken that people don't want to let go of because they believe it is more 'honest'. The reality is we are still playing a fighting game and there's meta and counter plays. Skill will still prevail. Strong defence will still make the difference. Correct decision making will still matter.
I would agree T8 is more volatile, but what that generally means is you have to work harder and play better to achieve the same consistency as before. This can actually benefit spectators and players apart from the best of the best in which case of course Arslan will be upset. A similar thing has happened with SF6. However, I think defaulting to a "this game is braindead" stance simply due to that is a bit braindead itself.
I've been playing Tekken competitively since T5 and a lot of the OGs I know from even back then are ultimately saying the game is tough in ft2 but FUN. I welcome a change to the formula we've been playing for so damn long now. I've also seen this same doomsday rhetoric for every version since T5:
T6: the game is ruined for adding rage and bound
Tag2: the game is ruined for such large damage rage bonus, dual character archetypes, even stronger combos
T7: the game is ruined for adding PC, rage drive and rage arts
People generally don't like change and even less so when it causes increased hardship. However, things WILL settle down, pros will adjust to the meta and I have faith Bamco will balance the game to a better place; we've seen promise in that regard already with Drag, DJ and now Azu adjustments. Give it time. Too much hyperbole and knee jerk reactions. The better players will still prevail over the long run and that's what ultimately matters.
The meta is SO early still. A lot of players are still for example refusing to utilise PC in a game where it is encouraged. Optimal punishment is nowhere near being achieved yet. Resource management is still all over the place. It is tough. We need a year of gameplay and balance adjustments to truly see where we stand.
It's very bad for pros in terms of balancing
Adapt or perish but I agree with Arslan Ash Tekken 8 is compltely different than any other Tekken games
Speedkicks my hero!
I also didn't like the "dash dash low kick magic 4 get life lead then back dash until the timer runs out" play style either.... Not tekken actually makes you FIGHT in a fighting game and everyone is complaining....
I like Tekken 8 game and made it to Mighty Ruler, but ultimately the heat system and the constant 50/50 game + the snowball style made me quit playing. Tekken 7 was kinda busted too but T8 is just worse
Them all being players from tag2 and onwards now makes this video make sense. I feel like t8 feels more like Tekken than it has since tag 2 or before tag 2 in the t1-5 erawhen it was more neutral focused. Because of all the extra tools you can legit play T8 like an older Tekken game with all the neutral cheese, strings and no combos (back then) and win. I personally like that and only enjoyed comboing in tt2 and t8 exclusively when it comes to Tekken games with combos. It is easier, it's also cheesier like old tekken so I understand why they don't like it.
I thought speed kickd has veen playing since t5.. the more you know.
Arslan Ash is 100% correct
Arslan ash is correct, the game is very different now to how it used to be, i was thinking the same thing about the game 🤔
I think a lot of you guys forgot about Kuni backdashing across the map in two backdashes…. No defense at high level is mindless but it was a mindless as it can be in pro play
The game is catered more towards an audience rather than the players. This is bad for gaming in general
I think games should be fun for everybody and that tekken 8 found a good middle ground. Especially considering all the defensive patches to come. It helps hook and interest new players while easing them into the depth.
I think chip should go and keep the recoverable gauge for if you get launched. You should not be punished for playing defense especially with how crazy the frames are in this game with over half the cast. They already nerfed CH launchers and low parry so I don’t understand why defense needs additional nerfs they at minimum need to tone down the frames on at least a couple moves on the top 10-15 because right now rounds snowball way too much once you get launched by a good character it’s very difficult to get back to your feet in neutral. or they need to tone down the chip or remove it completely and homing throws have to go immediately
I agree with both sides. Tekken 7 feels really nice to play and I still prefer it, but Tekken 8 feels like playing T7 with cheat codes. Both are fun, but when I play long offline sets every weekend with my brother, T8 is a lot less fun.
I have a few hundred wins under my belt in T8 online and my win rate is about 80% across all my characters. Funnily enough, it's defense that has made the difference in most of my sets. However, once you're at the ranks where your opponents know their plus frames, I think "mindless offense" is a pretty good name for it. In most cases, good defense will kill opponents who don't actually know frames and still choose "mindless offense."
Personally, I think they need to tone down heat burst and make some adjustments to chip damage/recoverable health. Also, some characters are just superior, whether its damage like Dragunov or move selection like Feng. It won't happen, but it'd be really cool if they took out heat smash and rage arts and just put rage drives in the game.
I'm still optimistic. We'll see how they begin balancing and tweaking the game.
_"but Tekken 8 feels like playing T7 with cheat codes"_
Tekken 7 is Tekken 6 with cheat codes: much bigger frames, much bigger tracking on all moves.
T7 2017'ers and T8 2024'ers never played real Tekken. All those people played is Kekken 7 and Kekkuga 8 with broken OP shit all over the place.
If you wanna see what is a real Tekken, try Tekken 6. Here's a few comparisons between Tekken 6 and Tekken 7/8:
T6 Drag's wr2 is +4 on block. You can't frame trap with d/f+2 after wr2 on block to get a launcher. Now in T8 it's +6 on block and you can frame trap with d/f+2 and launch the opponent if they press jabs.
In T6 Bryan's qcb3 is +2 on hit and has much worse tracking than it has now. In T6 you can't frame trap with b,f+2 after qcb3 on hit. Now in T7/8 Bryan's qcb3 is +5 on hit and has much better tracking. Not in T8 you can frame trap with b,f+2 after qcb3 on hit and launch the opponent if they press jabs. And it's safe on block, of fuскing course.
That's what changed from T6 to T7/8: they added advantages on lows, so scrubs can frame trap with launchers, and same on mids on block, so scrubs can frame trap with launchers on block from mids.
@KulaGGin Really, dude? I've been playing Tekken since T3. Of course, the games feel different across 2 major releases. Why reach back to T6 instead of TT2? I'm just saying that every character (aside from Zafina) feels like T7 on steroids. I made that distinction because we went straight from T7 into T8. By the time T7 globally, no one had been playing T6 for over 5 years.
Don't act like Lars and Bob weren't busted in T6. T5 was even more extreme. Why bring up T6 as an example of "real Tekken" when it's the game that introduced rage? Shouldn't T5 be the only one considered? Or wait, maybe we should be going back to T3?
My brother and I have been drinking and playing Tekken every Friday since 2008. The most fun I had was in TTT2, and the most fun he had was in T7. T6 was pretty forgettable, and the friends in the Navy I played with that competed in tournaments stopped playing because T6 sucked in their eyes. They still kicked my ass and made me dive into the game, but I also learned T5 competitive stats from them.
I bring all this up because out of all the games I know the most about between T5-T8, Tekken 7 ended up as the better game if you didn't play with DLC or 2D in our opinion. TTT2 was the most fun imo, just ahead of T5. T6 had the best customization. T8 is still too early to call, but the heat system feels overtuned, and almost every character is better than they were in T7 as it is now. Quit trying to win arguments as some old toxic Tekken player by labeling people you disagree with as "2017'ers." What, should I call Speedkicks a "2011'er" or Arslan a...whatever year T6 released? That's just a classic case of gatekeeping and trying to pretend like the opinion of a game that people stopped playing 13 years ago should still matter. If Tekken catered to the fans of T6, T7 would have been the last Tekken. It took them 2 years to get something that worked out of the arcades to consoles, and it was rewarded in the end as the best-selling Tekken game of all time. More weight should be put on T7 when considering what T8 should be like, so the only reasonable thing to do is argue the difference between TTT2, T7, and T8, since that encompasses the last decade.
a pipe dream rage drives are gone for good buddy
@@KulaGGinbro wtf are you yappin abt obviously newer game are different the state T8 is in right now is down right dumb
@ajhandsome01 I can dream. But no, I don't trust them lol. Knowing them, they'd just add rage drives on top of everything. I'll just pretend I live in a world where rage arts never existed and it was only rage drives
as a new player i like tekken 8 very much there so much option for offence and a very fun game these pro player can easily beat average player who uses this new heat mechanic the skill gap sstill huge
Namco wants to take the audience from MK
Thank god someone is saying it. Is very obvious anyway but players just say git bud even tho I get big win streaks...
I know it's a typo/autocorrect but "git bud" made me laugh. The world would be a better place if that was the energy the "just adapt bro, eat the shit and quit complaining" guys were on 😅
My highest rank character is kuma and I got there literally just from robbing people with bullshit, any attempts to do otherwise result in me being the one getting robbed. Tried playing some yoshimitsu (a secondary) to clown around the other day, ran into 3 different interchangeable victor spammers in a row who were all oblivious to the concept of interaction. I just quit playing. The next day the battlepass was revealed and I uninstalled "tekken revolution 2" and went back to 7 😂 Praying for 5dr emulation with good netcode one day
@@danknstein6504 Hahah crap it did the same thing on Facebook too
@@danknstein6504 Ngl… I’m at purple and I feel like there’s still room for me to be much more scrubby if I wanna get blue… I’m only one promo away from blue. I can get definitely get it just by attacking better
I kinda feel what's arslan is going through Tekken 8 is a worst nightmare for players with a defensive style, it just doesn't work meanwhile in ranked when I spam the attack button nonchalantly you could never go wrong it always work spamming that is.
No it's worst from him who is still playing t7 in t8.
No one thinks starting a round with a full stick of butter is ridiculous??
I see people at ranks way inflated above their skill level. Mashing takes much less skill than learning fundamentals
Been playing tekken since tekken 1. No one is playing original tekken anymore after tekken 3. The game is faster, there is tons of offense. I remember when people were mad when rage art's were added. Pros are mad that they are dropping more wins to other pros that they could constantly beat instead of just adapting to the new Metta. Your playing a different generation of tekken my boys.
I agree. I have played since 2. And I felt it was time to change things up. I welcomed this change. I just gotta learn to utilize it more. Time to adapt to the game if you cant? Oh well
I'm still mad about rage arts though. I think most people who play the game a lot don't like them being the way they are. I like all the new mechanics, they feel like tekken. Rage arts still don't. They should have the properties of a normal power crush or just no armor and have a little better scaling as combo enders
@@tongpoo8985 I remember when Tekken was considered the button mashing 3d fighting game. If you had "real skills" you played virtual fighter🙄.
The one thing that pros are scared to admit is, casuals aren't noob scrubs anymore. The mental stack it takes to get good nowadays is crazy high level. Compare Street fighter 2 turbo with sf6.. can anyone honestly say that turbo is a harder game to learn than sf6.
Hwoarang mains opinions dont matter. Anyone who plays a clown character is a clown themselves.
Totally agree with Arslan, Tekken 7 was so much better. It just felt more nuanced.
"They can just do moves"
IS "YOU CAN JUST DO NOTHING" BETTER?
Okay, I'm not huge into the Tekken scene but why are people treating Speedkicks and Arslan Ash as if there opinions are anywhere on the same level? Knee I could understand - but Speedkicks?
respect for speedkicks went soo low on this podcast
Tekken 8 is fun. I dont care about the 0.1% players that cant adapt to new mechanics.
i agree with the headline i agree with arslan, the game is a mess, noob love it because its new full of flash etc etc. its hard to explain why this game is a mess.
They are trying to sell games to the casual players not professional gamers
Namco needs to step it up, they have a great game in their hands, but anyone agrees that it is an unbalanced mess. Instead they are pushing out shitty patches with shops, game pass and stuff that nobody cares about. Do they want to drive people away from their game? Because that's exactly how you do that
Every era the games get more accessible to new players. As it should be. The old players aren't gonna be around forever . Gotta make room for the new .. eet ees whadidees 🤷♂️
replace Tekken 8 in the discussion with SF6/MK1... sounds like the same discussion
Speedkicks : mindless offence
Arslan : mindless defence
Joey : what is mindless
😂😂
Every other game with a decent meter system forces you to build it up over time, starting each round with access to heat (I mean chip damage on every move to like wtf) and eventually rage art, is just too much. Being able to do 70 percent of someone’s health without using a single actual combo is absolutely toxic, heat should either be one bar per match or have to be built up so it’s a real comeback mechanic and not just oppressive like it is now.
If theyre going to keep throws in its current state then it should be more committal.
The whiff animation should be longer if you get a good read and duck it since you cant sidestep it. I mean right now its a 10-12 frame unblockable move that you cant step and escaping the throw only puts you back in neutral and for some the whiff animations so brief which makes it hard to punish. I think it should be like xiaoyus grab animation on whiff when she goes for the hop n throw.