THIS IS A VIDEO ON FOUR DIFFERENT TYPES OF COPPER I HAVE USED OVER THE YEARS AND WHERE THEY SHOULD BE APPIED. Thanks for watching and please subscribe!!! Al
@fritzhvac Hey Fritz; great to hear from you. Had a little vacation and now I am back to work mode. Weather up north hear is fantastic. Things still HOT down there or are you getting any kind of relief. Nice to hear from you and thanks for commenting! Have yourself a great weekend! Will be in touch and where is your ACR? LOL... Al
@leejc13 hello; The service line is 1" and you are replacing it with 1" copper.I am not sure how many baths in your home,but 3/4" should be suffice and type K soft wall is what you would use under ground into the house.Plastic is much cheaper and will last as well underground.You want to use service compression fittings underground and inside solder with lead free solder.Type L is all you need inside the house.Silver soldering is not difficult,but not necessary. Tks for commenting G.L. Al
@lduenas Hey Luis;I have only used Type L copper for all water lines in a home in the past.Pex (plastic) is taking over copper,but type L is what you should use for this job.I run a 3/4 cold water main and branch off to every fixture with 1/2 inch and then I have a 3/4 inch header at the hot water tank and bring over seperate 1/2 inch hot water lines for every fixture in the house.I hope this helped you out.Type M (should only be used on heating) G.L. and thanks for commenting!Al
@casper55117 Hey Casper; I made two on pro-press and the name of them are ``The old plumber shows how to join copper fittings and pipe with new tool`and ``Connecting viega pipe using pro press tool`` This is an amzing system and the nice thing about it is you don`t have to be to concerned about water as the work can be performed even if the water does not completely shut off. Thanks for commenting Casper and have yourself a great weekend!!! Al
Great video- thanks! Loews is now carrying type L 0.5" and one other- type K perhaps. I asked the guy covering the plumbing aisles which to use for a simple home job, and he said that L was fine for almost every application. Sounds like he was correct.
For residential work, you really cannot go wrong using type-L. Before copper spiked in price about a decade ago, most water districts used 3/4 type K tubing outside, to the meter from the corporation stop at the main in the street, and again off the meter to the house in warmer climates, or to the meter-set in the basement in colder regions, where the plumber soldered on his 3/4" L copper to supply the house.
Hello Dave; You are exactly correct with that statement and it drives me a little batty. Type M should ONLY be used on heating systems. Type L is the pipe which SHOULD be installed in all homes for domestic waterlines when it comes to copper. The average DIY'er definitely would not know this and would probably look at copper as all being the same. Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
So, what is the "heating system"? What types? And why in the %#^&% would Home Depot be selling this to the regular Jow Blow without specifying the types?
1:32 - Oh yeah the "T drill"!!! That looks super cool, I want an excuse to buy one! They say you can use on any thickness of copper pipe but Type K seems like the most appropriate!
Hello 71dembones, I am not a fan of it myself as the copper has to be silver soldered and the copper becomes very weak. I believe the pipe goes in about 5/32s of an inch. I have seen it used on Type L as well and if water quality is a problem; don't expect it to last overly long. It is a great way to save tees especially if you have a lot of take offs. Again...water quality will determine the life expectancy. Thanks for commenting and enjoy your day! Al
TheOldkid888 I understand your concern and you're right; there's no way it wouldn't weaken the pipe. First, you cut a hole in the side of it and then anneal the pipe when you braze it up. It's definitely a compromise, but I could see using maybe somewhere with limited access. Might pay for itself if it saved you from digging up a 4" main one time. Not likely I'd ever have a good excuse to buy one so it's probably a moot point. If you had it you could make your own header manifolds and other stuff for refrigeration but, it would have to be something you could dump the copper chips out of. Couldn't use it on something in service. I don't know, I might have gotten a little over-excited about it :D
@Zed1967 Hello Lee; I recommend using type M for hot water heating systems;such as baseboard radiation and cast rads.and not for domestic waterlines in your home. Not to say that type M will not work,but the wall thickness of type M copper is about 1/2 that of type L.If you are going to run waterlines in your home;type L will more then likely be there in 40 years time and type M will be lucky to hit 20.I would not use type M on gas either myself.Thanks for commenting and have a good day!!! Al
There is a difference between Chinese made types of copper vs American made. American made copper is 100% rated thickness or very close to all the way around while Chinese made copper can vary in their thicknesses throughout the pipe. There is a city about 10 years old now and the repipe company told me that 85% of their business is in that city while the older homes in the 70's to 50's is about 15%. He said both are L type copper but one is Chinese made while the other is American.
I am going to be building a new bathroom, do you suggest I use type L for shower/tub, and sink? Also What size and would you just say use type L for any water line in the house? Which is Better for Propane Use?
Thanks to Reply ... Brother .IN mounted Aircondition installation but use only this size pipe 1/4 , 1/2, 3/8, 5/8, 3/4.. and how I know what guage of 5/8 pipe ( guage mean thickness and hard ) but how I know this is 28 guage pipe....
Hello cryptapocalypse; You are more then welcome. Type L is the only way to go for waterlines in your home. I would say that the other type they were selling is Type M. It should be used for heating only. It is much thinner then L and its life expectancy on domestic water is a lot shorter then L. Type L does cost more, but is well worth it in the long run. Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
Hey Al !!! Where is my ACR ? Just kiddin Brother , very good demonstration !!! It can be tricky when we jump trades !!! Another Great Video my Friend !!!
How do you think Type L 1/2 inch holds up against 1/2 CPVC? I have two additions 10-30 ft away from the house that needs cold and hot water. I'm in South Florida and at least 85 percent of the pipe will be underground exposed to the elements. Do you think it should be embedded in concrete to protect it or inside the Styrofoam noodles and lastly how often does copper need Hammer resistors?
Hello Luis, Personally, I would use Pex. I would bury it all underground and use the styrofoam noodles to insulate it. Taping each place where they meet. You can embed it in concrete, but digging down below the surface about 6 inches should be fine. Pex will last for decades if installed in this manner properly. Making a good trench and applying sand under and over the foam will make a good bed and cover. The only issue with pex is; it doesn't like the sunlight or florescent lights. So it MUST be covered with insulation whenever it is exposed to it or it will break down and crack. I simply insulate it and have no issues once this is done. CPVC will crack as well if exposed to sunlight over time. You can use soft wall copper tubing that is somewhat flexible and will last for years as well doing the same procedure as the pex with the insulation. Whatever you end up using be sure to draw out on a piece of paper where they are buried as you don't want yourself or any one else digging in the area of the pipes. Be sure to put the paper in a safe place as they seem to get lost easily. I know my do; so I purchased a book to keep track. Must be an age thing. LOL Hope this helps! Thanks for commenting and good luck with the project! Al
@TheOldkid888 Hey Al !!! It's in the E-350 Brother !!! LOL ... Al believe it or not its HOT !!! (we hit 100 today, hopefully rain sunday) ... Ready to head up North and Cool Off and do some Fishin my Friend !!! Glad to hear that ole spring in your step Brother !!! Take care Al !!!
@leejc13 Hello Lee; I enjoy passing on what I have picked up over the years and I do get feedback from a number of people who have accomplished projects themselves. Have a great day!!! Al
Thank you answering the main question I had about which type copper pipe i needed for a residential waterline (type-L). I noticed you answer another question by saying should just run pex instead of cpvc. I have 1/2" copper running through my house. 1 bath, kitchen and laundry. I need to add a line for an icemaker in a new frig, old house. Should i scrap the copper in favor of pex, just sweat in a copper single run, or tie pex into my existing copper for this one run?
Hello DJ, I would stick with the copper for the time being and run copper. You only have to run it so far. The fridge needs 1/.4 inch tubing. I use plastic for the myself. And I don't skimp on it as you have to be able to move your fridge out easily with no issues of the tubing being short. If your copper cuts through easily you may consider installing pex in the future. How old is the home and do you know if the copper is original? Get back to em when you get a chance....Al
@@TheOldkid888 Thank you for your reply. The home was built in the '60s, but the copper appears to be much younger. I may just go ahead and sweat in a short run to where the frig will be. I'm not a fan of those frig kit taps that pierce the copper. Just doesnt seem like a permanent solution.
Hello DJ, Good call! Hard to beat a copper joint in my opinion. I can honestly say that I have never used a fridge kit myself. I have ended up making a repair to copper where the pierced connection was made numerous times. Far better off with a soldered connection. Best of luck with the project! One thing that I tell all homeowners is to show everyone in the house where the shut off is to the fridge. Same goes for the main water shut off. I have seen them run the odd time right out of the blue for no reason at all. It is always good to let everyone know how to turn it off. Thanks for commenting and enjoy your weekend! Al
Hey is there any way to tell, other than the writing on the pipe, what type of copper you've got? I've got about a 3 foot stick of 2 inch copper pipe but no markings on it anywhere. I need to buy some fittings, but the only ones I can buy are online. They will be seated on the INSIDE of my copper pipe. The fittings i can find are fitted for type L copper pipe, but I have a feeling that the stick I have is K just off intuition. Are these compatible, or is there any way to check the stick I have to tell, such as measuring wall thickness?
Hello nlJ, The only way to tell by eye is the color code if there is writing on it. K is green, L is blue, red is type M and yellow is DWV (drainage waste and vent). I would look for a spot of color somewhere on it. I have dealt with copper for over four decades now so I can generally tell by weight and pipe thickness. I am not sure you are going to find fittings to go inside the copper as you mentioned. The closest size to 2" is 1-1/2" and there is quite a difference in outside diameter and inside. I haven't heard of any myself. That doesn't mean they don't exit. Here is a chart that may help with what you are looking for....as you pan down it will give you wall thickness of every type. www.engineersedge.com/fluid_flow/copper_tubing_size_chart_astm_b88_13181.htm Hope this helps! Years ago they made cast brass fittings for DWV that were much thicker than the copper fittings they make today. These are the only ones I can think of myself. Thanks for commenting and best of luck with the project! Al
@@TheOldkid888 Awesome, thank you sir. That page did the trick. I do in fact have a type L copper. The fittings that are going to be inside of the pipe are going to be specially manufactured to fit a 2" L type copper pipe, and then soldered in. They're basically inverted caps with four half inch diameter holes inside of them for half inch pipes to run through the two inch.
Hello nlJ, Glad the chart worked out for you! Just a heads up...1/2" pipe is 5/8th O.D. Hope everything works out for you with the project! Thanks for commenting and enjoy your day! Al
I bought some 1/4 inch soft copper recently at Lowes and there's no markings on it. It seems to have a different OD than the 1/4 that's in the Winnebago RV I'm working on. The RV also has a 11/16 in. OD main water line, 9/16 in. OD hot water and 1/4 in. faucet supply lines.
Hello J G I, Apologize for my late response. I have run into some problems myself. They can be a pain in the backside. The fittings don't match quite often and I end up repiping the entire thing. Not that I want to because they are painful to do as everything is jammed into every little space as you know. I am not sure if you can purchase fittings for RV's from perhaps a supplier, but it could be worth your time to check it out. Sorry I couldn't have been of more help. Thanks for commenting and best of luck with the repair! Al
Hello Dominic Greco, You're welcome! I can't help you out with the propane. That is something I really don't feel comfortable with. Sorry I can't advise you on this topic. Thanks for commenting and enjoy your weekend! Al
Question, I need to run about 60 feet of copper pipe for water hose outlets. Some will be exposed indoors other will be ran on the cross space and some will be buried. What letter should I use? Thanks
Hello lichi0728, Generally copper that is being run underground comes in a roll and is type K which is very expensive. If possible I would Rrun the copper underground in a plastic pipe (such as a piece of pvc pipe) use type L soft copper. It is much cheaper than K. Big thing is to be sure the pipe that is buried underground goes in the PVC pipe from one end to the other. Type L copper is what you would be looking for in the cross spaces as well(rigid). I personally would use pex myself as it is far less expensive and much easier to run. Be usre to insualte the pex if it is exposed to any light sources as it will deteriorate from any UV rays (the sun and florescent lights). Does the weather in your area ever go below freezing? If so, you don't want to run copper underground unless you can blow out all the water with a compressor before winter arrives which is a pain the backside. It will defintiely split on you. Please feel free to ask as many questions about the project! You don't want to have any issues if they can be prevented. If you are planning on installing in a colder climate be sure to install drains on all low points as it will helpo prevent any freezing pipe issues. And remember copper will split if it has any water in it so underground will be an issue unless it is below the frost line. Thanks for commenting and I hope the project goes well for you! Al
Hi,Here in the Uk England I have never heard of K-L-M etc copper pipe,I have always assumed there were different sizes but not different thickness or strengths, Is this only a American lettering system,because in my life time this has never been said to me. I want to build a type of cooling system that will condense the water from the air, made from my air compressor.I am using 28mm copper this will allow no reduction to the air tool ,this will be joined from a rubber air line connected from my from air compressor ,This will allow me to drain water from the condensed moisture captured from the hot and cold air. .My rating on the compressor is set at 150 psi but I will be using a reducer to drop it down to 125 psi,for my air gun. I do not have a clue now what type of lettering on the copper pipe to use and if I braise the joints it makes the copper softer due to the heat from braising,and what solder would I use,I am a little stuck and need advice if you have some pleases
hi im planning on replacing my main water line and have two questions 1. should i install 1" copper pipe to replace the 3/4 galvinize pipe that's connected to a 3/4" city water meter or just replace with 3/4" copper? 2. should i wrap with 20 mil pvc tape or sleeve the new type l copper pipe? thanks in advance
Hello DoNnEgRoW, A 3/4 inch line should give you enough volume for your home. Soft wall copper Type "K" was used years ago and is probably used in places today. Only install type K if you are planning to install copper. Service pipe is now used from the curb into the home. You will need special compression fitting for this procedure, but it is the go to in most places. Either one will last for decades so real need of sleeving them. Just out of curiosity how many bathrooms are in your home? Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
thanks for the reply. :) I dig up the old galvanized pipe and it turned out being a 1" pipe. So I bought 1" L type copper since my near big box retailers here in southern Cali does not carry Type K. i wonder how long it will last with the 20mil tape i used to wrap them. I spent $450 on materials, big difference from the $3,500 bid i received last week (31 feet). thanks again
Hello DoNnEgRoW, I am glad the project went well for you! Congrats! Saved yourself some big money. The length of time that copper last mostly depends on water quality, but ground acidity can also affect pipe. If the water quality is good and you have a smooth pipe with no dents; you could possibly get 30 to 40 years out of it. Wrapping it with the 20 mil tape will definitely help prevent any problems when back filling it as well. Was it a roll of soft copper you had purchased? Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
Hello Volkan, You're welcome! The fittings are standard thickness and fit on L,M,K.. The fittings are thicker than type M which would make sense. Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
Hello C. Wi, You're welcome! Hope everything works out for you! Fairly big project! There are a lots of honest contractors out there. Ask as many people as possible about who they get and it should work out for you. Thanks for commenting and feel free to ask me as many questions as possible. Thanks for commenting and best of luck with the repair! Al
Copper DWV still has a solid niche for a lot of applications, at least where I live/work. Not sure how standard this is; but here, Any structure 4 stories or higher cannot use plastic drain pipe. Then, it becomes a choice of working with cast iron or copper. Cast iron pipe and fittings are almost as expensive and it requires way more labor to install it. You can fit copper drain lines by yourself easily and you can do it real quick with a helper! Not always so with cast iron. And the copper will outlast the cast in most situations. It has the smallest O.D. for the respective pipe size vs. any other material; so it makes it the best choice in tight spots, too. It's nice for drains and vents that come up in inconvenient places (next to equipment). It needs to be strong enough to be worked around but light enough to not need tons of support. TL;DR I'm a big fanboy of copper DWV (and copper in general) it kicks ass!!
Hello 71dembones, Copper can definitely be put in by lone person. If it is DWV; the chances of it lasting longer than the cast is pretty slim. Copper has its place in the trade for sure. Speed is the name of the game so PVC or ABS will beat it hands down and will last for decades as well. I installed cast 2 feet in diameter forty years ago and it is still in place and working well. I have come across homes that have cast installed 100 years ago and is just beginning to pit now. How long the pipe last depends on water quality and what goes down the drain. There are different manufacturers of cast as well. Gray cast is exceptionally hard as compared to others and will easily outlast any others. Pipe that is fifty years old is in as good a shape as new cast and is very hard to cut. Copper is hard to beat, but has its place in the plumbing world. Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
TheOldkid888 Hmm, I believe you are correct that cast SHOULD last longer in most applications. When I see it have a very short life span is in medical office building applications (which is the majority of my work) A lot of nasty stuff ends up going down the drain (dentists are especially gross)and a lot of times it's not installed/pitched properly. Some medical practices will move after a short lease term and the suite will stay vacant for some time. It seems to always crack after the pipe dries out after being used heavily for a number of years. Maybe we only get crappy cast iron here; all the stuff I see is black pipe, put together with no-hub bands. I've seen the grey cast pipe you speak of, but not in person. I've definitely seen copper DWV fail as well but again, it's a matter of what got put thru the pipe and if it sat there, got left stagnant, etc. At the end of the day, plastic drains are easy to put together and should be used anytime it's allowed/acceptable. Thank you for your reply on this and all of your wisdom you readily share! I really appreciate it
Hello 71dembones, I've worked on medical drains for several years and know what you are talking about. Another thing to keep in mind is the previous maintenance people or tradesman may have used acid to clear the drain as well. Always wear a face shield and gloves as you know there is nothing good in those drains. Took me a while to get into a shield, but well worth the effort. Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
TheOldkid888 Acid and other harsh chemicals definitely play a role. I've also heard that certain bacteria/enzymes (specifically in dental drains) that build up can eat the cast iron as well. Not sure how true that is. But, I know that there's a few 30+ year old dentist's offices in the buildings I work regularly. The ones piped in cast have rotted out and the copper ones are mostly still going. Again, a lot of factors for why this may be, just something I've seen. Good advice for the face shield; I should probably start using that when doing drains. Fortunately, I don't do a lot of drain clearing but, we do replace some sections of pipe from time to time and you're right; only bad things in there :)
DWV copper still sees use in commercial kitchens, pretty commonly, for drainage. The discharge off a dishwasher will usually be in excess of 180 degrees F (85-90c) for the final rinse, easily capable of weakening plastic to failure. Other places copper sees use, is often for condensate lines coming off walk-in coolers (antimicrobial properties) to minimize clogs, as well as hot water heater blow-off lines, for the same reason as the first example.
Interesting you mention type K being used for med gas lines; when did that fall out of practice? I see it on older applications and as you said new stuff is type L
Hello 71dembones, In Canada type K was used for decades. I know of a hospital that was built in 1993 and Type L was installed for medical air lines. I am not exactly sure of the year it was changed over, but Type L is the go to now. Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
Hi Al!! Thanks for reading this. My 1950s Arizona home has 3/4" copper throughout, with 2 entry points coming from a single 1" galvanized service line. I am replacing the galv with 1" copper myself and would like to use Type K because I'm a spoiled girl :) If cost isn't an issue, would Type K be overkill? Also, is silver solder much more difficult to use than 50/50? I have a mapp gas torch. I know 50/50 has lead and isnt code, but our municipal line is already lead! Thanks!! -- Julie
Other than cost, there's really no problem in using type K copper underground, as that's what many water districts commonly used before a huge spike in price occurred a decade ago. Today, 1" PEX or black PE pipe is used with great success, nationwide. In acidic and cinder fill soils, a non-metallic pipe is preferable, as it's not subject to the effects of corrosion.
I have to sooner or later replace the underground water line connecting from outside my house to the city's water meter line. Should I go with Type K or L?
Hello tealpaintbrush1797, You want to use type K for underground. It isn't cheap, but will last for decades. They also sell plastic pipe as water service pipe. It's been used now for many years with no issues. Hope this helps! Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
I'm just learning of the different types of copper pipes. I have copper pipe going down into my crawlspace from my gas hot water heater and gas dryer. Big box stores only carry "L and M". I'm told that I need "K", but he didn't sound convincing. lol I tried to see and writing on the pipes, but didn't see any type of labeling. I have a small leak in the pipe for my gas water heater. I figured I would just replace the entire system since I'm sure it's old. I also enjoyed your pex videos and will be replacing my copper water pipes with pex in near future... with the help of your videos. :) I seen that you said you don't purchase pex and fittings from big box stores... is there a website you recommend? Also, if I need type "K" is there a website you recommend to purchase it? I noticed Grainger has "K". But they're always outrageous. Thanks for this valuable information, Al.
No, it's on my gas line. I smelled gas (barely) by front entrance and had gas company come out. He performed a pressure test on each appliance and gas water heater failed pressure test. He shut the gas off and tagged it out of service until I get it fixed. The gas water heater has a leak somewhere in the gas line. It has a couple fittings of black pipe coming from water heater, then copper line going through the floor, and then I noticed underneath house that the copper line is only about 5 feet or so long from each appliance, and then leads into black pipe. To me, some of that black pipe may even be regular galvanized. But I could be wrong in thinking it's not black pipe. I will be replacing those pieces as well to be on safe side. I thought about using black pipe for everything and doing away with the copper all together... using copper line will be quicker I think.
Hello Lester, The pipe is probably black iron. I am not a gas line installer, but you may have to either silver solder it if you are using pipe or flare copper tubing. Is the copper that you can see soldered with regular solder? That generally isn't what is done. Before you install the new copper you should see if you can solder with regular solder. No sense in doing it twice. Thanks for commenting and get back to me when you get a chance. Al
If there's black pipe below, it's probably fine. Get all that copper out of there, and re-pipe with black iron, to a valve, then a short stainless steel flex to each appliance.
I am replacing the copper pipes in my South Florida home for the second time! House built in 1985 so copper pipes only lasting about 14 years. Plumber told me he doesn't install copper anymore in my area. I believe he uses CPVC. My copper pipes often develope pin holes and are paper thin. They could have been type M, but impossible to tell. Thanks for video!
Hello Nicholas; Copper is still being used. Pex is becoming very popular now. Whenever I install copper pipe for domestic waterlines; I always use type L. It has about twice the thickness of type M. Type L has blue lettering on it; where type M is red. No problem using type L copper unless your water is very acidic. You should have no issues for a very long time. Thanks for commenting and best of luck with the repairs! Al
+Nicholas Hoffenpiper it says on the pipe what type it is. Red for M, blue for type L. You should never use type M. Its Destined for failure. Consider Wirsbo, a plastic product with great longevity.
@casper55117 Hello; Type L is now used for gas, but in previous years type K was the pipe required for gas in the past and it was code. Type L is now code. Thanks for commenting and enjoy your day!!! Al
Hello Shauno19882010baby; I don't believe the grade of copper is important when it comes to shine. I have tried a tad bit myself over the years. I can't say for sure that the alcohol will effect the copper ions. I have never made it, but stainless tubing would probably be the way to go and have no worries. It is a lot safer to hit the liquor store and have no worries about any kind of poisoning. Just my 2 cents on it. Thanks for commenting and have a good day! Al
@casper55117 Hello; Type L is now used for gas, but in years gone by; type K was the norm for gas piping in hospitals and was code back then. Thanks for commenting and enjoy your day!!! Al
3:15 - I share your sentiment with the misuse of type M. Some one cut the longevity of their job in half to save 25% (maybe less) on materials. arrgh! In my area, it's not a code violation at all for any application. Of course, a reputable plumber/fitter will stick with type L but, theres way too many guys out there who wouldn't think twice about piping up even a new commercial job with type M! Not right for houses either but especially uncool considering commercial work goes for so much more.
Hello 71dembones, Although Type M is accepted as copper for domestic waterlines; I personally would never use it for that purpose. It has been used on heating for ever and works well there. For the sake of a few dollars more; you get a much longer life expectancy for Type L. I have seen homes worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and people put in type M copper only to be removed within 15. I always say that it is not what you see, but what you don't that makes a home. Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
TheOldkid888 I agree it's all about the bones when it comes to any structure! I know some states/counties here in the US actually do not permit type M for domestic water. The only one I know for sure is Massachusetts. Steve Lav here on YT was talking about it in one of his videos. He said it was legal for a few years then was banned from all the problems. I wish they would pass that law universally; we'd have a lot less trouble. Water quality here in Southern CA is typically pretty bad, very hard. Type M WILL fail within 15 years usually within 10. You mention type M being used for hydronic heat but, how would you feel about a whole condenser water system (with mixed steel and copper pipe) being piped in M? I do not like it, especially where it has been brazed. The pipe feels really flimsy and I feel like the sediment inside the pipe is just like sandpaper as it runs thru. I have one building where the 4" risers are type M but everything that branches off is type L. That building only has a bit of steel pipe and it's all isolated in the mechanical pad (pumps, cooling tower, strainers, etc). It goes from the steel in the Mech. Room to sch 80 PVC underground and up into the building, then goes to the 4" type M. I have less of a problem with that one.
Hello 71dembones, I am all about having at least type L in any building. I personally believe that in larger buildings such as hospitals and such that the waterlines should be Type K. Not only is water quality an issue, but constant water flow can create friction and wear through the walls much sooner. I have seen it first hand. Type M for a riser should never happen, but again it is about the initial cost of erecting the building and not thinking long term. Where type M has been silver soldered or brazed; its life expectancy is not going to be overly long. In a closed loop system you don't have the introduction of newly oxygenated water entering the system that will play a part in deterioration and that is why I recommend it for closed systems such as heating. Anywhere that steel pipe is used with water you will have sediment being formed unless chemically treated. Chemicals are used on closed systems quite often in these systems and pipe breakdown is not nearly as common. This is a reason why amines are added to steam boilers to help protect the piping in the system; both the steam and condensate lines. If nothing was added; the piping would have a very short life span. You mentioned the Tee Pull before and I prefer tees myself as you silver solder the branches that decreases the life expectancy. Thanks for commenting and enjoy your day! Al
Hi, I'm a novice at most of this. I have a question. So I'm building a mother in law suite with a bathroom that's about 40 feet away from the house. I have been puzzled as to how I can get water to the new structure. I seen that some people stick the copper directly into the ground and use a 10 mil tape where it came out of the concrete. How long would the copper last underground, would CPVC be ok? How deep should I put the line/run in and would imbedding it sand make it safer for the line? I've gotten mixed feedback on what to go with. Would taping the whole run if I go with copper make it last longer? Is type K even used for that application or would Type L suffice? I want to go with copper since I heard that CPVC can become brittle within 15 years. I also have an electrical line that's 18 inches deep(South Florida Code) How far away should I stay from the electrical line?
@fritzhvac Hey Young feller: Holy crap;100 is hot and anything but pleasant. Hopefully the AC will hold up for you; if not I know where you can find a great one!! LOL... Maybe sometime we just may get together and get a little fishing in my friend. Take care and make sure you coat yourself with heavy sunscreen. Be safe!!! Al
Hello Russel, Type L and M use the same size fittings. The only difference is the wall thickness. I use type L only for domestic waterlines and type M on heating. Although type M can be used on waterlines as well; its life span is much shorter as the wall is considerably thinner. Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
Hello OneCupOfCoffee204, Thanks! All copper pipe is made of 99.9% copper I believe. There are different wall thicknesses as mentioned in the video. I use type L for domestic waterlines in a home. Type L is the medium thickness of copper. I use type M for hot water heating systems which has a thinner wall than type L. Type M can be used for domestic waterlines, but it will not last near as long. Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
Hello Aldo, You're welcome! The pipe in this video is 1/2" copper pipe which has a outside diameter of 5/8ths of an inch. Pipe is measured by the inside diameter. Tubing on the other hand is measured by the outside diameter. Ex...Half inch tubing is half inch on the outside. Hope this helps! Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
+ocast evo Type K is the thickest and perhaps could take this demand, but the joints would have to be silver soldered. What application would you be using it for? Thanks for commenting and have a great week! Al
TheOldkid888 well I'm using it to compress air inside of it. I want it to be copper because of its thermal conductivity. Its just a little home project. I'm trying to evaporate water using only compressed air. And thank you, i appreciate the time you took to make the video.
Hello Diane, Depending on where the location is and the ;low temperatures of the region. I have used it in low temperature regions where freezing is an issue. Big thing to remember is to shut it off and drain it when winter is approaching. If you don't mind my asking...where is the region and the use? Thanks for commenting and get back to me when you get a chance....Al
if there is only a difference between K copper and L copper of $200.00 to run a main water line would you go with K over L the K copper has a 10 year warranty on copper and labor and L has a 1 year warranty on labor and a 10 year warranty on copper. Thanks
Hello trucker Jay, I haven't had to change type L ever within 20 years. type M is another story. Type K wall thickness is better than L, but the fittings that are used with the piping are only type L thickness. Leaks can occur anywhere in the system, but generally they start at the fittings. Piping from decades ago get pinholes before the elbows in many cases because they were considerably thicker. Almost brass in many cases. A lot depends on the water quality, but Type L is the go to for myself. Pex is actually the go to for most plumbers today. One thing about Pex is there will be no breakdown regardless of the water quality with most systems. AS far as the warranty goes...it pertains mostly to the labor. I haven't seen Type L or K ever have an issue with leakas. Only improperly soldered joints. Thanks for commenting and enjoy your weekend! Al
Hey "TheOldkid888". First, thank you for the explanation, and as a do-it-yourselfer, why easy on the flux? I've heard some licensed plumbers say, "More flux is better than less, and no problem with extra flux.", but you and "service 1956" agree to "easy on the flux". That's the first time I hear that. Can you explain? Thank you.
Hello J Nieto, A very fine layer of flux is all that is needed to make a soldered joint. I was taught that back in 1978. Remember it vividly. The instructor made it perfectly clear as to how much is needed. We were working on a project and almost used an entire small tin. He wasn't very impressed with us. He told us that a small tin should do about three houses. Could tell by his tone we had to change the amount we used. No need for lots of flux. More is definitely not better. It doesn't make the soldering job go better. The access flux will melt inside the fitting and pipe and you will ingest it for decades. I made a video on a joint that was soldered about 25 years ago and there was still lots of flux in the pipe in the cold water line used for drinking. In my soldering video I show how little I use and how I apply it. I use a popsicle stick myself; not an acid brush. This too was how I was taught. This is the video if you are interested...How to solder copper pipe. Tips and tricks! The old plumber shows complete technique. Thanks for commenting and enjoy your day! Al
Good morning TheOldkid888. Thank you so much for your time, prompt reply and informative explanation. I truly appreciate it. I will check out your other information. Have a blessed Sunday.
Hello service1956 , I may have made the statement that type M is only for heating. It can be used on domestic waterlines as you know, but I only use type L on domestic. I have seen type M deteriorate in ten to fifteen years with pinholes way to often. I have been in homes that are worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and type M installed. For the sake of a few hundred dollars; type L can be installed and no worries of replacing waterlines for 30 plus years. There are places to save and spend money in a home and waterlines are really not one of them in my books. Just my two cents. Everyone has there own way of doing things. I prefer Type L. Totally agree on the flux! Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
Hello harsh shinde, Definitely not. Copper is not hard enough for a barrel as the bullet or shot creates a large amount of heat and the barrel would bend easily. That is why steel is used. Thanks for commenting and have a good weekend! Al
Hello ice fishingforever, I can't really give you the answer without knowing the application. Also, there are a few different pressure that apply and it depends on how it is made and also used. Soldering or heating the copper in such a manner will lower the pipes pressure. What were you planning on using the pipe on? Thanks for commenting and get back to me when you get a chance....Al
hello theoldkid888, i'm using for compressed air for my garage, but i already got the answer i was looking for the type m pipe is rated for max pressure of 701psi , but thanks for responding anyway.
Hello GÜNA, You want to check with he authorities in your area. There are a number of different materials used, but each municipality has there own set of rules. Thanks for commenting and have a good day! Al
I've seen many pinhole failures in water lines here in Arizona. All failures have been type M.saw another one yesterday in a million dollar house. i know this house and type L was specified. They were lucky. As absentee owners, someone else noticed it and shut off the water and called the owner in Canada.The contractor in turns out used type M, cheaper for him. One Doctors home last year had repeated failure and insurance claims and lots of water damage repeatedly. Ten to twelve years seems to be the failure beginning period here. I think type M should be "OUTLAWED" for use in homes as it is destined for failure. Its very difficult to re-pipe a large multistory hoe and why should that be necessary?
+Phil Oliver I couldn't agree more with you. I believe in ONLY using type L for domestic waterlines. I have never used M for domestic water. The sad part of the whole thing is type M can be used for water lines which I totally disagree with. That is why I mentioned in this video that type M should be only used for heating lines where they will last for many decades. I have seen very expensive homes as well with type M in them. It really doesn't matter if the house is worth 1 million or 50K; no place for it. The homeowner does not know the difference. Look for the RED label; if it is there, I would have it replaced. USE type L and have no worries for decades. Totally agree! Thanks for commenting and have a great weekend! Al
Hello Blind Luck, Good point! Actually never entered my mind at the time! MY bad! Could be a reason for another video on copper. Thanks for commenting and enjoy your weekend! Al
Hello N Eliseo S Carranza, You are going to have to explain that one to me..... TP pipe I have heard of, but not copper. Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
I have been working with a type of copper than look like thicker than blue. for example I have to put one reduce tp cooper 2 1/2 and then put a reduce 2 1/2 x 2 . that is weird.
Hello N, Interesting...Type K which is colored green is thicker that type L that has the blue marking. That is very strange. If you get a chance drop me the name of the copper. I would appreciate it. Interested in checking it out. Thanks for commenting and enjoy your day! Al
Hello kamran, What are you going to use the copper for as I may be able to help you with the answer in that direction? As far as gauges of copper go; I have never gotten into the gauge of the copper, but what class it would be. Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
Hello Ralph, It drives me right over the deep end to see things like that. People spending a boat load of money on their home only to get crap for waterlines that will go in half the time of type L. For the sake of another few hundred dollars they could have installed type L. That is the advantage of pex and that too is if it is installed correctly. I believe it will last for many decades with no issues. Thanks for commenting and I hope the job goes well for you! Al
It would be nice if you mentioned what sizes the pipes are 1/2 in, 3/4 in, 1 1/2 in. etc,etc . You could of made this video 2 minutes long at the most. . .........
Its hard to find type L nowadays ,The home improvement stores, can make a bigger profit on the cheaper copper pipe.The average DIY'er does not know the difference...
@Zed1967 Hello Lee; I recommend using type M for hot water heating systems;such as baseboard radiation and cast rads.and not for domestic waterlines in your home. Not to say that type M will not work,but the wall thickness of type M copper is about 1/2 that of type L.If you are going to run waterlines in your home;type L will more then likely be there in 40 years time and type M will be lucky to hit 20.I would not use type M on gas either myself.Thanks for commenting and have a good day!!! Al
Thank you Al for the quick response! I'm very impressed with your generosity towards your RUclips audience.
Very informative, thanks.
Hello Luis,
You're welcome!
Hopefully it helps with any future projects!
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
@fritzhvac Hey Fritz; great to hear from you. Had a little vacation and now I am back to work mode. Weather up north hear is fantastic. Things still HOT down there or are you getting any kind of relief. Nice to hear from you and thanks for commenting! Have yourself a great weekend! Will be in touch and where is your ACR? LOL... Al
@leejc13 hello;
The service line is 1" and you are replacing it with 1" copper.I am not sure how many baths in your home,but 3/4" should be suffice and type K soft wall is what you would use under ground into the house.Plastic is much cheaper and will last as well underground.You want to use service compression fittings underground and inside solder with lead free solder.Type L is all you need inside the house.Silver soldering is not difficult,but not necessary.
Tks for commenting G.L. Al
@lduenas Hey Luis;I have only used Type L copper for all water lines in a home in the past.Pex (plastic) is taking over copper,but type L is what you should use for this job.I run a 3/4 cold water main and branch off to every fixture with 1/2 inch and then I have a 3/4 inch header at the hot water tank and bring over seperate 1/2 inch hot water lines for every fixture in the house.I hope this helped you out.Type M (should only be used on heating) G.L. and thanks for commenting!Al
@casper55117 Hey Casper;
I made two on pro-press and the name of them are ``The old plumber shows how to join copper fittings and pipe with new tool`and ``Connecting viega pipe using pro press tool``
This is an amzing system and the nice thing about it is you don`t have to be to concerned about water as the work can be performed even if the water does not completely shut off.
Thanks for commenting Casper and have yourself a great weekend!!! Al
thanks , very imformative
+np1391
You are more than welcome!
Hopefully it will help with any future projects!
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
Great advise
Hello Jim,
Thanks!
I hope it helps with any future projects you may have.
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your day! Al
Great video- thanks! Loews is now carrying type L 0.5" and one other- type K perhaps. I asked the guy covering the plumbing aisles which to use for a simple home job, and he said that L was fine for almost every application. Sounds like he was correct.
For residential work, you really cannot go wrong using type-L. Before copper spiked in price about a decade ago, most water districts used 3/4 type K tubing outside, to the meter from the corporation stop at the main in the street, and again off the meter to the house in warmer climates, or to the meter-set in the basement in colder regions, where the plumber soldered on his 3/4" L copper to supply the house.
Hello Dave;
You are exactly correct with that statement and it drives me a little batty. Type M should ONLY be used on heating systems. Type L is the pipe which SHOULD be installed in all homes for domestic waterlines when it comes to copper.
The average DIY'er definitely would not know this and would probably look at copper as all being the same.
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
So, what is the "heating system"? What types? And why in the %#^&% would Home Depot be selling this to the regular Jow Blow without specifying the types?
1:32 - Oh yeah the "T drill"!!! That looks super cool, I want an excuse to buy one! They say you can use on any thickness of copper pipe but Type K seems like the most appropriate!
Hello 71dembones,
I am not a fan of it myself as the copper has to be silver soldered and the copper becomes very weak. I believe the pipe goes in about 5/32s of an inch.
I have seen it used on Type L as well and if water quality is a problem; don't expect it to last overly long.
It is a great way to save tees especially if you have a lot of take offs.
Again...water quality will determine the life expectancy.
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your day! Al
TheOldkid888 I understand your concern and you're right; there's no way it wouldn't weaken the pipe. First, you cut a hole in the side of it and then anneal the pipe when you braze it up. It's definitely a compromise, but I could see using maybe somewhere with limited access. Might pay for itself if it saved you from digging up a 4" main one time. Not likely I'd ever have a good excuse to buy one so it's probably a moot point. If you had it you could make your own header manifolds and other stuff for refrigeration but, it would have to be something you could dump the copper chips out of. Couldn't use it on something in service. I don't know, I might have gotten a little over-excited about it :D
@Zed1967 Hello Lee;
I recommend using type M for hot water heating systems;such as baseboard radiation and cast rads.and not for domestic waterlines in your home. Not to say that type M will not work,but the wall thickness of type M copper is about 1/2 that of type L.If you are going to run waterlines in your home;type L will more then likely be there in 40 years time and type M will be lucky to hit 20.I would not use type M on gas either myself.Thanks for commenting and have a good day!!! Al
There is a difference between Chinese made types of copper vs American made. American made copper is 100% rated thickness or very close to all the way around while Chinese made copper can vary in their thicknesses throughout the pipe. There is a city about 10 years old now and the repipe company told me that 85% of their business is in that city while the older homes in the 70's to 50's is about 15%. He said both are L type copper but one is Chinese made while the other is American.
I am going to be building a new bathroom, do you suggest I use type L for shower/tub, and sink? Also What size and would you just say use type L for any water line in the house? Which is Better for Propane Use?
Thanks to Reply ... Brother .IN mounted Aircondition installation but use only this size pipe 1/4 , 1/2, 3/8, 5/8, 3/4.. and how I know what guage of 5/8 pipe ( guage mean thickness and hard ) but how I know this is 28 guage pipe....
Thank you!
Hello stateboy80892,
You're welcome!
Hopefully it helps with any future projects!
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
Hello cryptapocalypse;
You are more then welcome. Type L is the only way to go for waterlines in your home.
I would say that the other type they were selling is Type M. It should be used for heating only. It is much thinner then L and its life expectancy on domestic water is a lot shorter then L.
Type L does cost more, but is well worth it in the long run.
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
Hey Al !!!
Where is my ACR ?
Just kiddin Brother , very good demonstration !!!
It can be tricky when we jump trades !!!
Another Great Video my Friend !!!
How do you think Type L 1/2 inch holds up against 1/2 CPVC? I have two additions 10-30 ft away from the house that needs cold and hot water. I'm in South Florida and at least 85 percent of the pipe will be underground exposed to the elements. Do you think it should be embedded in concrete to protect it or inside the Styrofoam noodles and lastly how often does copper need Hammer resistors?
Hello Luis,
Personally, I would use Pex. I would bury it all underground and use the styrofoam noodles to insulate it. Taping each place where they meet. You can embed it in concrete, but digging down below the surface about 6 inches should be fine. Pex will last for decades if installed in this manner properly. Making a good trench and applying sand under and over the foam will make a good bed and cover.
The only issue with pex is; it doesn't like the sunlight or florescent lights. So it MUST be covered with insulation whenever it is exposed to it or it will break down and crack. I simply insulate it and have no issues once this is done. CPVC will crack as well if exposed to sunlight over time. You can use soft wall copper tubing that is somewhat flexible and will last for years as well doing the same procedure as the pex with the insulation.
Whatever you end up using be sure to draw out on a piece of paper where they are buried as you don't want yourself or any one else digging in the area of the pipes. Be sure to put the paper in a safe place as they seem to get lost easily. I know my do; so I purchased a book to keep track. Must be an age thing. LOL
Hope this helps!
Thanks for commenting and good luck with the project! Al
@TheOldkid888 Hey Al !!!
It's in the E-350 Brother !!! LOL ...
Al believe it or not its HOT !!! (we hit 100 today, hopefully rain sunday) ...
Ready to head up North and Cool Off and do some Fishin my Friend !!!
Glad to hear that ole spring in your step Brother !!!
Take care Al !!!
@leejc13 Hello Lee;
I enjoy passing on what I have picked up over the years and I do get feedback from a number of people who have accomplished projects themselves.
Have a great day!!! Al
Thank you answering the main question I had about which type copper pipe i needed for a residential waterline (type-L).
I noticed you answer another question by saying should just run pex instead of cpvc. I have 1/2" copper running through my house. 1 bath, kitchen and laundry. I need to add a line for an icemaker in a new frig, old house. Should i scrap the copper in favor of pex, just sweat in a copper single run, or tie pex into my existing copper for this one run?
Hello DJ,
I would stick with the copper for the time being and run copper. You only have to run it so far. The fridge needs 1/.4 inch tubing. I use plastic for the myself. And I don't skimp on it as you have to be able to move your fridge out easily with no issues of the tubing being short.
If your copper cuts through easily you may consider installing pex in the future.
How old is the home and do you know if the copper is original?
Get back to em when you get a chance....Al
@@TheOldkid888 Thank you for your reply. The home was built in the '60s, but the copper appears to be much younger. I may just go ahead and sweat in a short run to where the frig will be. I'm not a fan of those frig kit taps that pierce the copper. Just doesnt seem like a permanent solution.
Hello DJ,
Good call! Hard to beat a copper joint in my opinion.
I can honestly say that I have never used a fridge kit myself. I have ended up making a repair to copper where the pierced connection was made numerous times. Far better off with a soldered connection.
Best of luck with the project!
One thing that I tell all homeowners is to show everyone in the house where the shut off is to the fridge. Same goes for the main water shut off. I have seen them run the odd time right out of the blue for no reason at all. It is always good to let everyone know how to turn it off.
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your weekend! Al
Hey is there any way to tell, other than the writing on the pipe, what type of copper you've got? I've got about a 3 foot stick of 2 inch copper pipe but no markings on it anywhere. I need to buy some fittings, but the only ones I can buy are online. They will be seated on the INSIDE of my copper pipe. The fittings i can find are fitted for type L copper pipe, but I have a feeling that the stick I have is K just off intuition. Are these compatible, or is there any way to check the stick I have to tell, such as measuring wall thickness?
Hello nlJ,
The only way to tell by eye is the color code if there is writing on it. K is green, L is blue, red is type M and yellow is DWV (drainage waste and vent). I would look for a spot of color somewhere on it. I have dealt with copper for over four decades now so I can generally tell by weight and pipe thickness.
I am not sure you are going to find fittings to go inside the copper as you mentioned. The closest size to 2" is 1-1/2" and there is quite a difference in outside diameter and inside. I haven't heard of any myself. That doesn't mean they don't exit.
Here is a chart that may help with what you are looking for....as you pan down it will give you wall thickness of every type.
www.engineersedge.com/fluid_flow/copper_tubing_size_chart_astm_b88_13181.htm
Hope this helps!
Years ago they made cast brass fittings for DWV that were much thicker than the copper fittings they make today. These are the only ones I can think of myself.
Thanks for commenting and best of luck with the project! Al
@@TheOldkid888 Awesome, thank you sir. That page did the trick. I do in fact have a type L copper.
The fittings that are going to be inside of the pipe are going to be specially manufactured to fit a 2" L type copper pipe, and then soldered in. They're basically inverted caps with four half inch diameter holes inside of them for half inch pipes to run through the two inch.
Hello nlJ,
Glad the chart worked out for you!
Just a heads up...1/2" pipe is 5/8th O.D.
Hope everything works out for you with the project!
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your day! Al
I bought some 1/4 inch soft copper recently at Lowes and there's no markings on it. It seems to have a different OD than the 1/4 that's in the Winnebago RV I'm working on. The RV also has a 11/16 in. OD main water line, 9/16 in. OD hot water and 1/4 in. faucet supply lines.
Hello J G I,
Apologize for my late response.
I have run into some problems myself. They can be a pain in the backside. The fittings don't match quite often and I end up repiping the entire thing. Not that I want to because they are painful to do as everything is jammed into every little space as you know.
I am not sure if you can purchase fittings for RV's from perhaps a supplier, but it could be worth your time to check it out.
Sorry I couldn't have been of more help.
Thanks for commenting and best of luck with the repair! Al
Thanks for video. Can you give a recommendation on running propane?
Hello Dominic Greco,
You're welcome!
I can't help you out with the propane. That is something I really don't feel comfortable with.
Sorry I can't advise you on this topic.
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your weekend! Al
Question, I need to run about 60 feet of copper pipe for water hose outlets. Some will be exposed indoors other will be ran on the cross space and some will be buried. What letter should I use?
Thanks
Hello lichi0728,
Generally copper that is being run underground comes in a roll and is type K which is very expensive. If possible I would Rrun the copper underground in a plastic pipe (such as a piece of pvc pipe) use type L soft copper. It is much cheaper than K. Big thing is to be sure the pipe that is buried underground goes in the PVC pipe from one end to the other. Type L copper is what you would be looking for in the cross spaces as well(rigid).
I personally would use pex myself as it is far less expensive and much easier to run. Be usre to insualte the pex if it is exposed to any light sources as it will deteriorate from any UV rays (the sun and florescent lights).
Does the weather in your area ever go below freezing? If so, you don't want to run copper underground unless you can blow out all the water with a compressor before winter arrives which is a pain the backside. It will defintiely split on you.
Please feel free to ask as many questions about the project! You don't want to have any issues if they can be prevented.
If you are planning on installing in a colder climate be sure to install drains on all low points as it will helpo prevent any freezing pipe issues. And remember copper will split if it has any water in it so underground will be an issue unless it is below the frost line.
Thanks for commenting and I hope the project goes well for you! Al
Hi,Here in the Uk England I have never heard of K-L-M etc copper pipe,I have always assumed there were different sizes but not different thickness or strengths,
Is this only a American lettering system,because in my life time this has never been said to me.
I want to build a type of cooling system that will condense the water from the air, made from my air compressor.I am using 28mm copper this will allow no reduction to the air tool ,this will be joined from a rubber air line connected from my from air compressor ,This will allow me to drain water from the condensed moisture captured from the hot and cold air.
.My rating on the compressor is set at 150 psi but I will be using a reducer to drop it down to 125 psi,for my air gun.
I do not have a clue now what type of lettering on the copper pipe to use and if I braise the joints it makes the copper softer due to the heat from braising,and what solder would I use,I am a little stuck and need advice if you have some pleases
hi im planning on replacing my main water line and have two questions
1. should i install 1" copper pipe to replace the 3/4 galvinize pipe that's connected to a 3/4" city water meter or just replace with 3/4" copper?
2. should i wrap with 20 mil pvc tape or sleeve the new type l copper pipe?
thanks in advance
Hello DoNnEgRoW,
A 3/4 inch line should give you enough volume for your home.
Soft wall copper Type "K" was used years ago and is probably used in places today. Only install type K if you are planning to install copper.
Service pipe is now used from the curb into the home. You will need special compression fitting for this procedure, but it is the go to in most places.
Either one will last for decades so real need of sleeving them.
Just out of curiosity how many bathrooms are in your home?
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
thanks for the reply. :) I dig up the old galvanized pipe and it turned out being a 1" pipe. So I bought 1" L type copper since my near big box retailers here in southern Cali does not carry Type K. i wonder how long it will last with the 20mil tape i used to wrap them. I spent $450 on materials, big difference from the $3,500 bid i received last week (31 feet). thanks again
Hello DoNnEgRoW,
I am glad the project went well for you! Congrats!
Saved yourself some big money.
The length of time that copper last mostly depends on water quality, but ground acidity can also affect pipe. If the water quality is good and you have a smooth pipe with no dents; you could possibly get 30 to 40 years out of it. Wrapping it with the 20 mil tape will definitely help prevent any problems when back filling it as well.
Was it a roll of soft copper you had purchased?
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
thanks- are there different fittings as well, L, M?
Hello Volkan,
You're welcome!
The fittings are standard thickness and fit on L,M,K.. The fittings are thicker than type M which would make sense.
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
Thanks for the helpful information. Being a female I'm trying to do my best not to be ripped off on a re-pipe of my home.
Hello C. Wi,
You're welcome!
Hope everything works out for you! Fairly big project!
There are a lots of honest contractors out there.
Ask as many people as possible about who they get and it should work out for you.
Thanks for commenting and feel free to ask me as many questions as possible.
Thanks for commenting and best of luck with the repair! Al
@sonnysand Hey Sonny; I hope you enjoy them. I will keep on making them as often as possible. Thanks for commenting and enjoy the weekend!!! Al
Copper DWV still has a solid niche for a lot of applications, at least where I live/work. Not sure how standard this is; but here, Any structure 4 stories or higher cannot use plastic drain pipe. Then, it becomes a choice of working with cast iron or copper. Cast iron pipe and fittings are almost as expensive and it requires way more labor to install it. You can fit copper drain lines by yourself easily and you can do it real quick with a helper! Not always so with cast iron. And the copper will outlast the cast in most situations. It has the smallest O.D. for the respective pipe size vs. any other material; so it makes it the best choice in tight spots, too. It's nice for drains and vents that come up in inconvenient places (next to equipment). It needs to be strong enough to be worked around but light enough to not need tons of support.
TL;DR I'm a big fanboy of copper DWV (and copper in general) it kicks ass!!
Hello 71dembones,
Copper can definitely be put in by lone person. If it is DWV; the chances of it lasting longer than the cast is pretty slim.
Copper has its place in the trade for sure. Speed is the name of the game so PVC or ABS will beat it hands down and will last for decades as well.
I installed cast 2 feet in diameter forty years ago and it is still in place and working well. I have come across homes that have cast installed 100 years ago and is just beginning to pit now. How long the pipe last depends on water quality and what goes down the drain. There are different manufacturers of cast as well. Gray cast is exceptionally hard as compared to others and will easily outlast any others. Pipe that is fifty years old is in as good a shape as new cast and is very hard to cut.
Copper is hard to beat, but has its place in the plumbing world.
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
TheOldkid888 Hmm, I believe you are correct that cast SHOULD last longer in most applications. When I see it have a very short life span is in medical office building applications (which is the majority of my work) A lot of nasty stuff ends up going down the drain (dentists are especially gross)and a lot of times it's not installed/pitched properly. Some medical practices will move after a short lease term and the suite will stay vacant for some time. It seems to always crack after the pipe dries out after being used heavily for a number of years. Maybe we only get crappy cast iron here; all the stuff I see is black pipe, put together with no-hub bands. I've seen the grey cast pipe you speak of, but not in person. I've definitely seen copper DWV fail as well but again, it's a matter of what got put thru the pipe and if it sat there, got left stagnant, etc. At the end of the day, plastic drains are easy to put together and should be used anytime it's allowed/acceptable. Thank you for your reply on this and all of your wisdom you readily share! I really appreciate it
Hello 71dembones,
I've worked on medical drains for several years and know what you are talking about. Another thing to keep in mind is the previous maintenance people or tradesman may have used acid to clear the drain as well. Always wear a face shield and gloves as you know there is nothing good in those drains. Took me a while to get into a shield, but well worth the effort.
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
TheOldkid888 Acid and other harsh chemicals definitely play a role. I've also heard that certain bacteria/enzymes (specifically in dental drains) that build up can eat the cast iron as well. Not sure how true that is. But, I know that there's a few 30+ year old dentist's offices in the buildings I work regularly. The ones piped in cast have rotted out and the copper ones are mostly still going. Again, a lot of factors for why this may be, just something I've seen. Good advice for the face shield; I should probably start using that when doing drains. Fortunately, I don't do a lot of drain clearing but, we do replace some sections of pipe from time to time and you're right; only bad things in there :)
DWV copper still sees use in commercial kitchens, pretty commonly, for drainage. The discharge off a dishwasher will usually be in excess of 180 degrees F (85-90c) for the final rinse, easily capable of weakening plastic to failure.
Other places copper sees use, is often for condensate lines coming off walk-in coolers (antimicrobial properties) to minimize clogs, as well as hot water heater blow-off lines, for the same reason as the first example.
Interesting you mention type K being used for med gas lines; when did that fall out of practice? I see it on older applications and as you said new stuff is type L
Hello 71dembones,
In Canada type K was used for decades. I know of a hospital that was built in 1993 and Type L was installed for medical air lines. I am not exactly sure of the year it was changed over, but Type L is the go to now.
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
Hi Al!! Thanks for reading this. My 1950s Arizona home has 3/4" copper throughout, with 2 entry points coming from a single 1" galvanized service line. I am replacing the galv with 1" copper myself and would like to use Type K because I'm a spoiled girl :) If cost isn't an issue, would Type K be overkill? Also, is silver solder much more difficult to use than 50/50? I have a mapp gas torch. I know 50/50 has lead and isnt code, but our municipal line is already lead! Thanks!! -- Julie
Other than cost, there's really no problem in using type K copper underground, as that's what many water districts commonly used before a huge spike in price occurred a decade ago. Today, 1" PEX or black PE pipe is used with great success, nationwide. In acidic and cinder fill soils, a non-metallic pipe is preferable, as it's not subject to the effects of corrosion.
May want to add about using "crimper" tools to connect copper pipe and the type you can use' as some types that are not allowed.
I have to sooner or later replace the underground water line connecting from outside my house to the city's water meter line. Should I go with Type K or L?
Hello tealpaintbrush1797,
You want to use type K for underground. It isn't cheap, but will last for decades.
They also sell plastic pipe as water service pipe. It's been used now for many years with no issues.
Hope this helps!
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
I'm just learning of the different types of copper pipes. I have copper pipe going down into my crawlspace from my gas hot water heater and gas dryer. Big box stores only carry "L and M". I'm told that I need "K", but he didn't sound convincing. lol I tried to see and writing on the pipes, but didn't see any type of labeling. I have a small leak in the pipe for my gas water heater. I figured I would just replace the entire system since I'm sure it's old. I also enjoyed your pex videos and will be replacing my copper water pipes with pex in near future... with the help of your videos. :) I seen that you said you don't purchase pex and fittings from big box stores... is there a website you recommend? Also, if I need type "K" is there a website you recommend to purchase it? I noticed Grainger has "K". But they're always outrageous. Thanks for this valuable information, Al.
Hello Lester,
Just want to be clear on something...
Is the leak you are talking about on your waterline?
Get back to me when you get a chance. Al
No, it's on my gas line. I smelled gas (barely) by front entrance and had gas company come out. He performed a pressure test on each appliance and gas water heater failed pressure test. He shut the gas off and tagged it out of service until I get it fixed. The gas water heater has a leak somewhere in the gas line. It has a couple fittings of black pipe coming from water heater, then copper line going through the floor, and then I noticed underneath house that the copper line is only about 5 feet or so long from each appliance, and then leads into black pipe. To me, some of that black pipe may even be regular galvanized. But I could be wrong in thinking it's not black pipe. I will be replacing those pieces as well to be on safe side. I thought about using black pipe for everything and doing away with the copper all together... using copper line will be quicker I think.
Hello Lester,
The pipe is probably black iron.
I am not a gas line installer, but you may have to either silver solder it if you are using pipe or flare copper tubing. Is the copper that you can see soldered with regular solder? That generally isn't what is done.
Before you install the new copper you should see if you can solder with regular solder.
No sense in doing it twice.
Thanks for commenting and get back to me when you get a chance. Al
If there's black pipe below, it's probably fine. Get all that copper out of there, and re-pipe with black iron, to a valve, then a short stainless steel flex to each appliance.
I am replacing the copper pipes in my South Florida home for the second time! House built in 1985 so copper pipes only lasting about 14 years. Plumber told me he doesn't install copper anymore in my area. I believe he uses CPVC. My copper pipes often develope pin holes and are paper thin. They could have been type M, but impossible to tell. Thanks for video!
Hello Nicholas;
Copper is still being used. Pex is becoming very popular now.
Whenever I install copper pipe for domestic waterlines; I always use type L. It has about twice the thickness of type M.
Type L has blue lettering on it; where type M
is red.
No problem using type L copper unless your water is very acidic. You should have no issues for a very long time.
Thanks for commenting and best of luck with the repairs! Al
+Nicholas Hoffenpiper it says on the pipe what type it is. Red for M, blue for type L. You should never use type M. Its Destined for failure.
Consider Wirsbo, a plastic product with great longevity.
@casper55117 Hello;
Type L is now used for gas, but in previous years type K was the pipe required for gas in the past and it was code. Type L is now code.
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your day!!! Al
Hello Shauno19882010baby;
I don't believe the grade of copper is important when it comes to shine. I have tried a tad bit myself over the years. I can't say for sure that the alcohol will effect the copper ions.
I have never made it, but stainless tubing would probably be the way to go and have no worries.
It is a lot safer to hit the liquor store and have no worries about any kind of poisoning.
Just my 2 cents on it.
Thanks for commenting and have a good day! Al
@casper55117 Hello;
Type L is now used for gas, but in years gone by; type K was the norm for gas piping in hospitals and was code back then.
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your day!!! Al
3:15 - I share your sentiment with the misuse of type M. Some one cut the longevity of their job in half to save 25% (maybe less) on materials. arrgh! In my area, it's not a code violation at all for any application. Of course, a reputable plumber/fitter will stick with type L but, theres way too many guys out there who wouldn't think twice about piping up even a new commercial job with type M! Not right for houses either but especially uncool considering commercial work goes for so much more.
Hello 71dembones,
Although Type M is accepted as copper for domestic waterlines; I personally would never use it for that purpose. It has been used on heating for ever and works well there.
For the sake of a few dollars more; you get a much longer life expectancy for Type L.
I have seen homes worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and people put in type M copper only to be removed within 15. I always say that it is not what you see, but what you don't that makes a home.
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
TheOldkid888 I agree it's all about the bones when it comes to any structure! I know some states/counties here in the US actually do not permit type M for domestic water. The only one I know for sure is Massachusetts. Steve Lav here on YT was talking about it in one of his videos. He said it was legal for a few years then was banned from all the problems. I wish they would pass that law universally; we'd have a lot less trouble. Water quality here in Southern CA is typically pretty bad, very hard. Type M WILL fail within 15 years usually within 10. You mention type M being used for hydronic heat but, how would you feel about a whole condenser water system (with mixed steel and copper pipe) being piped in M? I do not like it, especially where it has been brazed. The pipe feels really flimsy and I feel like the sediment inside the pipe is just like sandpaper as it runs thru. I have one building where the 4" risers are type M but everything that branches off is type L. That building only has a bit of steel pipe and it's all isolated in the mechanical pad (pumps, cooling tower, strainers, etc). It goes from the steel in the Mech. Room to sch 80 PVC underground and up into the building, then goes to the 4" type M. I have less of a problem with that one.
Hello 71dembones,
I am all about having at least type L in any building. I personally believe that in larger buildings such as hospitals and such that the waterlines should be Type K. Not only is water quality an issue, but constant water flow can create friction and wear through the walls much sooner. I have seen it first hand.
Type M for a riser should never happen, but again it is about the initial cost of erecting the building and not thinking long term. Where type M has been silver soldered or brazed; its life expectancy is not going to be overly long. In a closed loop system you don't have the introduction of newly oxygenated water entering the system that will play a part in deterioration
and that is why I recommend it for closed systems such as heating.
Anywhere that steel pipe is used with water you will have sediment being formed unless chemically treated. Chemicals are used on closed systems quite often in these systems and pipe breakdown is not nearly as common.
This is a reason why amines are added to steam boilers to help protect the piping in the system; both the steam and condensate lines. If nothing was added; the piping would have a very short life span.
You mentioned the Tee Pull before and I prefer tees myself as you silver solder the branches that decreases the life expectancy.
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your day! Al
What size is recommended for run a line for a washer machine?
Hello Acura31,
Two 1/2 inch pipes is what is I run for a washer. A hot and cold.
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
Hi, I'm a novice at most of this. I have a question. So I'm building a mother in law suite with a bathroom that's about 40 feet away from the house. I have been puzzled as to how I can get water to the new structure. I seen that some people stick the copper directly into the ground and use a 10 mil tape where it came out of the concrete. How long would the copper last underground, would CPVC be ok? How deep should I put the line/run in and would imbedding it sand make it safer for the line? I've gotten mixed feedback on what to go with. Would taping the whole run if I go with copper make it last longer? Is type K even used for that application or would Type L suffice? I want to go with copper since I heard that CPVC can become brittle within 15 years. I also have an electrical line that's 18 inches deep(South Florida Code) How far away should I stay from the electrical line?
@fritzhvac Hey Young feller: Holy crap;100 is hot and anything but pleasant. Hopefully the AC will hold up for you; if not I know where you can find a great one!! LOL... Maybe sometime we just may get together and get a little fishing in my friend. Take care and make sure you coat yourself with heavy sunscreen. Be safe!!! Al
please explain the difference between copper pipe for water and lpg please,thnax
Do type M and L use the same fittings?
Hello Russel,
Type L and M use the same size fittings. The only difference is the wall thickness.
I use type L only for domestic waterlines and type M on heating. Although type M can be used on waterlines as well; its life span is much shorter as the wall is considerably thinner.
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
Great video, question, is all copper pipe pure 100% copper or are there different grades?
Hello OneCupOfCoffee204,
Thanks!
All copper pipe is made of 99.9% copper I believe. There are different wall thicknesses as mentioned in the video.
I use type L for domestic waterlines in a home. Type L is the medium thickness of copper. I use type M for hot water heating systems which has a thinner wall than type L. Type M can be used for domestic waterlines, but it will not last near as long.
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
@@TheOldkid888 do you know if anyone has used copper tubing to be wired down by methods and processes to be used in electric motors?
Thanks for the video. that 1/2" pipe is not 1/2" is that so?!
Hello Aldo,
You're welcome!
The pipe in this video is 1/2" copper pipe which has a outside diameter of 5/8ths of an inch. Pipe is measured by the inside diameter. Tubing on the other hand is measured by the outside diameter. Ex...Half inch tubing is half inch on the outside.
Hope this helps!
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
Plumbed two homes one in PVC and CPVC and the other in PEX and PVC drains. I have worked with copper but I'd never use it if I had a choice.
Cpvc? I figured they outlawed that garbage product. Feel bad for the homeowner.
@@larryyerr I would still choose it over copper any day.
which one of these can withstand at most 500 psi and temperatures of 500 degrees Fahrenheit?
+ocast evo
Type K is the thickest and perhaps could take this demand, but the joints would have to be silver soldered.
What application would you be using it for?
Thanks for commenting and have a great week! Al
TheOldkid888
well I'm using it to compress air inside of it. I want it to be copper because of its thermal conductivity. Its just a little home project. I'm trying to evaporate water using only compressed air. And thank you, i appreciate the time you took to make the video.
ocast evo
You are more than welcome!
Sounds like an interesting project!
Thanks for commenting and best of luck with the project! Al
@Zed1967 type L is used for gas
Please tell me the size of copper pipe for ice maker connection of water it should be 3"8 ?
Hello Karan,
The pipe size for an ice maker on a fridge is 1/4".
Thanks for commenting and have a great day! Al
Plz tell me capillary size of 1/4 copper pipe for ice maker connection of water
You told us what DWV means but What does K L and M mean?
Can you use Type l on the outside of a home.
Hello Diane,
Depending on where the location is and the ;low temperatures of the region.
I have used it in low temperature regions where freezing is an issue. Big thing to remember is to shut it off and drain it when winter is approaching.
If you don't mind my asking...where is the region and the use?
Thanks for commenting and get back to me when you get a chance....Al
if there is only a difference between K copper and L copper of $200.00 to run a main water line would you go with K over L the K copper has a 10 year warranty on copper and labor and L has a 1 year warranty on labor and a 10 year warranty on copper. Thanks
Hello trucker Jay,
I haven't had to change type L ever within 20 years. type M is another story. Type K wall thickness is better than L, but the fittings that are used with the piping are only type L thickness. Leaks can occur anywhere in the system, but generally they start at the fittings. Piping from decades ago get pinholes before the elbows in many cases because they were considerably thicker. Almost brass in many cases.
A lot depends on the water quality, but Type L is the go to for myself. Pex is actually the go to for most plumbers today.
One thing about Pex is there will be no breakdown regardless of the water quality with most systems.
AS far as the warranty goes...it pertains mostly to the labor. I haven't seen Type L or K ever have an issue with leakas. Only improperly soldered joints.
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your weekend! Al
@@TheOldkid888 Thanks for your help I really appreciate your help I got the company to give me K copper with pvc coating at no extra charge
Hey "TheOldkid888". First, thank you for the explanation, and as a do-it-yourselfer, why easy on the flux? I've heard some licensed plumbers say, "More flux is better than less, and no problem with extra flux.", but you and "service 1956" agree to "easy on the flux". That's the first time I hear that. Can you explain? Thank you.
Hello J Nieto,
A very fine layer of flux is all that is needed to make a soldered joint.
I was taught that back in 1978. Remember it vividly. The instructor made it perfectly clear as to how much is needed. We were working on a project and almost used an entire small tin. He wasn't very impressed with us. He told us that a small tin should do about three houses. Could tell by his tone we had to change the amount we used.
No need for lots of flux. More is definitely not better. It doesn't make the soldering job go better. The access flux will melt inside the fitting and pipe and you will ingest it for decades.
I made a video on a joint that was soldered about 25 years ago and there was still lots of flux in the pipe in the cold water line used for drinking.
In my soldering video I show how little I use and how I apply it. I use a popsicle stick myself; not an acid brush. This too was how I was taught. This is the video if you are interested...How to solder copper pipe. Tips and tricks! The old plumber shows complete technique.
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your day! Al
Good morning TheOldkid888. Thank you so much for your time, prompt reply and informative explanation. I truly appreciate it. I will check out your other information. Have a blessed Sunday.
In areas using city supplied water, type M is fine. I would not use it in well water applications! Go easy on flux when sweating.
Hello service1956 ,
I may have made the statement that type M is only for heating. It can be used on domestic waterlines as you know, but I only use type L on domestic. I have seen type M deteriorate in ten to fifteen years with pinholes way to often. I have been in homes that are worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and type M installed. For the sake of a few hundred dollars; type L can be installed and no worries of replacing waterlines for 30 plus years. There are places to save and spend money in a home and waterlines are really not one of them in my books. Just my two cents.
Everyone has there own way of doing things. I prefer Type L.
Totally agree on the flux!
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
Can we use this as a gun barrel plz reply bro
Hello harsh shinde,
Definitely not. Copper is not hard enough for a barrel as the bullet or shot creates a large amount of heat and the barrel would bend easily.
That is why steel is used.
Thanks for commenting and have a good weekend! Al
@@TheOldkid888 thanx for reply really appreciate but what can I use instead
can you tell me the PSI rating for 3/4 type m is????
Hello ice fishingforever,
I can't really give you the answer without knowing the application. Also, there are a few different pressure that apply and it depends on how it is made and also used. Soldering or heating the copper in such a manner will lower the pipes pressure.
What were you planning on using the pipe on?
Thanks for commenting and get back to me when you get a chance....Al
hello theoldkid888, i'm using for compressed air for my garage, but i already got the answer i was looking for the type m pipe is rated for max pressure of 701psi , but thanks for responding anyway.
@@icefishingforever9439 assuming you're talking about drawn copper, yes. annealed is much lower
Wich type can i use for gas?? To cook with
Hello GÜNA,
You want to check with he authorities in your area.
There are a number of different materials used, but each municipality has there own set of rules.
Thanks for commenting and have a good day! Al
I've seen many pinhole failures in water lines here in Arizona. All failures have been type M.saw another one yesterday in a million dollar house. i know this house and type L was specified. They were lucky. As absentee owners, someone else noticed it and shut off the water and called the owner in Canada.The contractor in turns out used type M, cheaper for him.
One Doctors home last year had repeated failure and insurance claims and lots of water damage repeatedly.
Ten to twelve years seems to be the failure beginning period here. I think type M should be "OUTLAWED" for use in homes as it is destined for failure. Its very difficult to re-pipe a large multistory hoe and why should that be necessary?
+Phil Oliver
I couldn't agree more with you. I believe in ONLY using type L for domestic waterlines. I have never used M for domestic water.
The sad part of the whole thing is type M can be used for water lines which I totally disagree with. That is why I mentioned in this video that type M should be only used for heating lines where they will last for many decades. I have seen very expensive homes as well with type M in them. It really doesn't matter if the house is worth 1 million or 50K; no place for it. The homeowner does not know the difference. Look for the RED label; if it is there, I would have it replaced.
USE type L and have no worries for decades. Totally agree!
Thanks for commenting and have a great weekend! Al
just a thought cause your trying to inform. how about a vid about pro-press
@casper55117 sorry type L that is silver soldered is code for gas
I didn’t hear a word about the flexible copper tubing
Hello Blind Luck,
Good point!
Actually never entered my mind at the time! MY bad!
Could be a reason for another video on copper.
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your weekend! Al
what about tp copper.?.
Hello N Eliseo S Carranza,
You are going to have to explain that one to me.....
TP pipe I have heard of, but not copper.
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
I have been working with a type of copper than look like thicker than blue. for example I have to put one reduce tp cooper 2 1/2 and then put a reduce 2 1/2 x 2 . that is weird.
Hello N,
Interesting...Type K which is colored green is thicker that type L that has the blue marking.
That is very strange. If you get a chance drop me the name of the copper. I would appreciate it.
Interested in checking it out.
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your day! Al
Asalmualikum : The Old Kid 888 How I know 1/4 copper pipe what guage? I am waiting for your Reply... Thanks.
Hello kamran,
What are you going to use the copper for as I may be able to help you with the answer in that direction?
As far as gauges of copper go; I have never gotten into the gauge of the copper, but what class it would be.
Thanks for commenting and enjoy your week! Al
www.copper.org/publications/pub_list/pdf/copper_tube_handbook.pdf
Working on a 1.2 million dollars home that has type m in and under house.leaks everywhere
Hello Ralph,
It drives me right over the deep end to see things like that. People spending a boat load of money on their home only to get crap for waterlines that will go in half the time of type L.
For the sake of another few hundred dollars they could have installed type L.
That is the advantage of pex and that too is if it is installed correctly. I believe it will last for many decades with no issues.
Thanks for commenting and I hope the job goes well for you! Al
It would be nice if you mentioned what sizes the pipes are 1/2 in, 3/4 in, 1 1/2 in. etc,etc . You could of made this video 2 minutes long at the most. . .........
Its hard to find type L nowadays ,The home improvement stores, can make a bigger profit on the cheaper copper pipe.The average DIY'er does not know the difference...
To the Goddamn point dude s*** f****** babbling
Stop verbally jumping everywhere
@Zed1967 Hello Lee;
I recommend using type M for hot water heating systems;such as baseboard radiation and cast rads.and not for domestic waterlines in your home. Not to say that type M will not work,but the wall thickness of type M copper is about 1/2 that of type L.If you are going to run waterlines in your home;type L will more then likely be there in 40 years time and type M will be lucky to hit 20.I would not use type M on gas either myself.Thanks for commenting and have a good day!!! Al