Arrival Procedures for EAA AirVenture Oshkosh
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- Preparing to fly to EAA AirVenture Oshkosh 2024 in a few weeks? Make sure to check out this video showing you how to make a safe approach and landing into Wittman Regional Airport.
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I have to say I’m really surprised that EAA sanctioned this video. Having flown into Airventure multiple times, I can say (and I’m sure others will agree) that this video directly contradicts the NOTAM. Further, I would be concerned that people would watch this and try to emulate the “proper way” demonstrated in the video and ignore the clear instructions in the NOTAM leading to problems for ATC and/or pilots in the pattern.
The approach to 18 shows a stabilized approach by beginning the Base Leg turn abeam the Blue Dot. The NOTAM clearly states that you should be ON Base by the Tower or Blue Dot, not starting there. In fact, the NOTAM explicitly states not proceeding past the Blue Dot unless advised by ATC. By starting later you have given the false impression that you have more distance/time for your Base turn and subsequent turn to Final.
The approaches to 27 all take place outside the gravel pit (i.e. gravel pit to the right of the aircraft). This clearly contradicts the NOTAM which specifies keeping your downwind INSIDE the gravel pit (i.e. gravel pit to the LEFT of the aircraft). By flying Downwind outside the gravel pit you have given the false impression that you have more distance/time for your Base turn and subsequent turn to Final.
Both of these approaches fail to mention the reality that ATC will likely be instructing pilots when to start their descents and turns. When things are busy, few (if any) approaches will look the way they are flown in this video and pilots, especially people new to Airventure, need to know that they will be flying a somewhat non-standard pattern as instructed by ATC (short approach, early turns to Base, Extended downwind, last minute changes to which Dot to land on, etc.).
Totally agree with this assessment. I went back and listened to my recording of my last 27 arrival. What I got was "turn downwind inside the gravel pit" (in fact the conga line was so far inside my passenger wondered where the gravel pit was), start descent (with a 14 knot tailwind mind you) midfield, "base prior to the orange dot, keep it inside the numbers". Land on the green dot. This totally disagrees with the published procedures and what ATC will actually do.
I sure hope you show live everyone coming in with the ATC feed. I saw that one year and LOVED it!!
@@klingterra I am pretty sure they will again that was nice that they did that and forgot to add the that’s the first one and that’s
July 19 Friday
Cherokee - 11 a.m. - Cherokee for Mass Arrival
Cessna - 5 p.m. - Cessna for Mass Arrival
What helps me with any short approach with a precision touchdown is to focus your attention on where you are going to land and NOT the end of the runway. We are all taught to land on the first third and you need to throw that idea away at OSH and pretend that part of the runway doesn't exist. By focusing where you are assigned (say, blue dot) you will reduce the tendency to overshoot final. If this were done on the first 27 approach, I think that landing could have been easily made. Looking forward to my 41st Oshkosh!
What happened to staying Inside the Gravel Pit? You show flying North or outside the gravel pit when the NOTAM instructs (and always has has instructed) to stay between the pit and the airport.
Do u know when the cams will be up and running I look forward to that
The first shot of the video shows the plane flying slightly on the north side of Fisk where the ultralight pattern is right below. Having flown in that ultralight pattern many times, and seen planes way low on left base for 36 it would be great if these videos would follow the correct procedure and maybe even point out the danger of flying north of Fisk Ave and maybe point out that there is traffic not even on the same frequency 500’ away from you there.
Also the notice is pretty clear in bold print DO NOT fly past the blue dot and the map says be on base by the blue dot, not start your base there.
Good catch. In fact the NOTICE explicitly states to fly "close to Fisk Ave, on the south side, but remain north of the microwave tower." This video depicts flying above or north of Fisk which could put you in the Do Not Fly Zone and create a conflict with the Ultralight pattern as you correctly point out.
Question: the correct landing method for Runway 18R shown in this video seems to contradict the NOTAM?
The video suggest start base turn at the blue dot. However the NOTAM says: "Be on base by ATC tower or BLUE DOT". Which one is the correct way to turn base?
In another video on the EAA AirVenture website, a tail dragger aircraft was instructed to turn base TOWARD the PINK dot, and the base to final turn appears to be well below the 200 ft suggested by this video. How should the landing be performed if we are instructed to turn base early?
In that case, the controller likely saw the Taildragger had a low APP speed, and wanted to decrease their time in the air to allow the traffic behind to maintain their faster APP speed. Long landing clearances are issued to land "at or after" the dot, which allows an enormous latitude for aircraft to control their energy state. No aggressive maneuvers are required.
More emphasis must be placed on practicing maneuvers to the point of comfort, and BOLDLY discouraging pilots without the sharpened skill-set to participate. We must be prepared to slip, and otherwise maneuver, with full flap at low energy and airspeed while maintaining situational awareness very near the ground in heavily congested airspace, with an audience of thousands. To any pilots who DO NOT feel comfortable with this; PLEASE do the right thing and bow-out of the fly-in portion. You will have a better time at the show with less stress, and make the airspace safer for all those around you.
The instructions when landing on 27 are almost always to stay "inside the gravel pit," which puts you on a downwind about 1/2 mile from the runway. Doable, but you gotta make a continuous 30° bank turn from downwind to final, no leveling the wings on base.
And if you start your descent at mid field you’re also higher than a typical pattern. A fast tight decent to the orange dot 😬🤞
Thanks for sharing these discrepancies and raising these points for clarification. The textual language contradicts the diagram on the 18R approach/Blue Dot and can be confusing. The NOTICE text says to “turn base abeam the blue dot.” That means you initiate your turn when you are abeam. We have verified that is what FAA ATC will expect unless they direct something different. The gravel pit is also confusing as it is shown on the diagram North of the flight path, and yet is not described anywhere in the text. While a slow aircraft might have no issue remaining inside of the pit, a higher performance aircraft will be hard pressed to do so. We will work with ATC to correct these issues for future NOTICE publications.
This video was developed to demonstrate the best way to work with ATC, follow ATC instructions, and maintain a stabilized approach. Too many aircraft are turning too low from base to final and not flying a high enough final approach. Energy management and target altitudes for turning base and turning final are the emphasis here. Follow ATC instructions and use the NOTICE as guidance for your arrival while maintaining a stabilized approach path. Doing that, combined with the altitude targets referenced here will result in a much safer approach.
EAA has shared/vetted this video with FAA ATC and they are making it available as a training aide for their controllers to view as preparation for coming to OSH. Again, we appreciate your feedback and are happy to discuss any aspects of this with you!
Page 12 of the NOTICE reads "Turn base abeam the Blue Dot". The Diagram states "Be on base by ATC tower or Blue Dot". The text also states "Do not continue past the Blue Dot unless advised by ATC". The last statement seems pretty clear, however, there is contradiction here.
Regarding the Gravel Pit, the diagram on Page 11 clearly shows the downwind leg INSIDE the gravel pit. In addition, anyone who has flown the 27 arrival can attest to the fact that ATC consistently instructs pilots to start your downwind turn INSIDE the gravel pit. There has never been any confusion about the gravel pit.
@@DougMowry it even says “DO NOT” in all caps!
So again, do we comply with ATC instructions or do we disregard and fly as depicted in the video? "Fly to the cab of the tower." is an ATC instruction that does not align with the "Begin base turn abeam the blue dot".
@@TheFlyingSalesman Fly according to the according to the NOTICE. That's the law of the land for Airventure, not this video.
Looks to me like all you are doing is dismissing the comments and defending your video. Not much “discussion” going on. The fact is this video contradicts the NOTAM in several places and should be removed.
Very well made! Can't wait for Airventure!
There is a lot left to be desired here and not representative of the real world conditions. In each of the "Wrong Way" approaches the text clearly states, ATC instructed. Are we supposed to ignore ATC and fly the patterns like this?
“Habit pattern” okay that term is in my toolbox
Good idea
So the key is to descend to 500 agl on the downwind and keep the downwind and base leg on the wide side...
Yeah, no! All kinds of issues with this video not following the NOTAM!
I’m amazed the FAA allows this insanity. No way no how would I ever fly into this crapshow.
I'm sure you're fun at parties....I kid - seriously, it's not that bad. Read the NOTAM, know the NOTAM, and practice. Sat right side the last trip. I'll be in the left seat this time - can't wait!
My video was way better
How is this comment helpful?
@@susannafrench how is this video helpful would be the better question