I have mixed feelings about the definition of a "hub." On one hand, hub makes me thing that it is more about the geographic location, which is to say that a hub wouldn't support a specific travel corridor or community but rather would be a central charging location for multiple corridors or communities. In other words, it would likely be on or near the intersection between two or more interstates or highways. On the other hand, I think "hub" could refer to any location where charging is secondary or only one facet of the experience. In other words, rather than making a discrete charging stop (one that you'd typically want to be as short as possible), the location of the chargers coincides with the desired destination itself. Buc-ees would be a good example of that. For me, two that immediately come to mind are Electrify America's location in Santa Clara at the Westfield Mall (quietly one of EA's best sites) or the Marengo Parking Structure in Old Town Pasadena with both Power Up Pasadena and Tesla Superchargers. In terms of travel hubs, it's hard to argue with locations like Baker, CA's Ultra Gas & Mart, Coalinga's Harris Ranch, and the entire town of Kettleman City.
The staffed stations like EA's San Francisco flagship and Gravity in NYC are the two best examples of urban hubs. I've never experienced a Buc-ee's but a big installation at one of their stores to support non-Teslas has be second to none. Charging stops along rural routes is paradoxically what Tesla does so well at, but also could use so much improvement. For example, Yakima, WA has a 4-stall EA for travelers at a Walmart which is nice for a nature break. Nearby is an 8-stall V3 Supercharger at a hotel with no public restrooms. Lame.
Terrific topic! These videos & discussions really get me thinking. It's really cool that we're well past the point of copy/paste EV charging station designs. The divergency we're seeing as different CPOs build different stations as the location warrants, is fascinating to witness. What a time to be alive!
It makes sense, when we think about those deploying the infrastructure: prior to 2022, it was mostly a few similar players trying to keep it simple so that they weren't a burden to site hosts... X dispensers, X spaces from your parking lot, we'll do the rest. Now, it's the site hosts themselves actively behind the deployments or, in some cases, the charging entity buying properties to develop specifically for EVs. Much greater commitment to serving EV drivers as customers and creating a viable business for charging, rather than complying with a court mandate or just getting pins in a map. Good times, indeed.
I am thinking the flack PFJ took for being an early mover, but only putting in 4 stalls is starting to come into focus with the likes of TA, Loves, and others adding to their properties. When all is said & done, 4 per location may well be about right when there are four more across the street and 8 more the other side of the interstate viaduct. However, the builds into ride share areas take one design form and hubs in community centers follow a different design philosophy. I think we will see many divergent options on the plate come this time next year. Thank you for the video. I really enjoyed seeing the water views from Logan and the crisp execution over at Rove, courtesy of MM.
Appreciate the Gigatip ⚡👍 Four stalls cranking out EVs in 20-30 minutes for travel stops might be the bare minimum, but I think it's a fine starting point for most vendors. The clear exception is city centers and airports like this, where a few dawdling drivers immediately creates a logjam. Happens predictably at JFK and near O'Hare, as we've seen especially in winter, so building oversized hubs seems like a justifiable decision in these cases, even if there are alternatives nearby. Thanks for watching and for the sharp comment.
@@plugandplayEVI think more rideshare companies should do more. They already have agreements with other providers but there needs to be more. 1. help their drivers by offering charger installation 2. have private charging hubs for folks who can’t charge at home.
When I go to PFJ I am the only EV charging there. So if US EV sales doubled overnight (100% increase) then there would be 2 stalls in use. Over time as demand increases they can add more chargers. I wish the ev community would give them their flowers because they are doing a great job and the charging experience is amazing.
We need 40 + stalls to be the same throughput as a gas station with 8 stalls. All of which have canopies and are pull through. That’s because 5 min for gas vs 25 ish for Evs. And they have a gas station across the street…
@wasabi521 But all those gas pumps are required because every single vehicle sold only has that option to refuel. The % of EV drivers needing that 20-30 minute fill up is significantly smaller than for gassers. Stall count and power need to be considered on a location-by-location basis, rather than a blanket XX stalls or dispensers for every charge site, IMO.
To be a hub, you need a minimum of 24 hour bathroom, preferably with vending. I think the Ionna model is the way to go with dedicated sites. I think the travel stops like Flying J and Loves have that covered and just need more chargers. Much of the next wave is going to be with the locations that already cater to road trippers. I think they see that the trend is toward more EVs even it it will be slow. They want to already be the place to go, so that habit is established.
Despite all the noise and negativity about EVs and DC fast charging, I really like what I’m seeing in the proliferation of EV chargers. The incoming administration will only be a very slight bump but it’s full steam ahead. This reminded me about the dwindling of coal and eventually, the economics will favor EVs.
My list of must-have amenities mostly includes a 24-hour restroom, good lighting, a patch of grass to take dogs out to pee, and picnic tables for eating good I brought with me in the car. I also want a place that I can get into and out of quickly, without having to fight traffic through a large, congested parking lot.
Exactly! For me in this one, I looked at locations with 10+ stalls, mostly 180kW+ power, and some kind of distinction from the usual charging locations... extensive canopies, dedicated retail, EV-only focus, multiple hardware types... whatever made the site a bit different. But that was more to trim the list and present just a handful of stations for consideration. I think "charging hub" probably isn't that useful a term in the long run, as the goal is more broadly to serve the specific location's user needs, but it's a suffix that is deployed often enough to warrant a closer look.
Yep, investment from Indian firm Exicom came over the summer but didn't get too many headlines. Combination of well-known clients and US-based manufacturing in Tennessee probably made Tritium appealing. The former Freewire head honcho was also announced as Tritium CEO last week.
@@plugandplayEV it seems like Electric Era is getting a lot of business from gas stations that freewire once catered to. As a majority of EE existing/upcoming 20 or so sites are gas stations.
The Rove site is near me in Southern California. One of their upcoming sites will be within walking distance.Unfortunately/fortunately I charge at home.
Right, home charging takes away a lot of headaches. Useful for several non-home charging scenarios, however, and hopefully affordable L2 can be incorporated into some sites to help those living nearby who have no way to charge overnight.
I’m hugely impressed with the Bucees stores. Charging plus a huge store with tasty road food and refreshments and lots of clean restrooms. Plus they have tons of gas pumps too for those other vehicles.
I really need to get to one, but I'm not sure I've been within several hundred miles of a Buc-ee's this year, despite crossing the country. Can't be long before I hit one of the recent Ohio locations, I'm sure.
Buc-ee's is proof that people are clueless about how much time they spend refueling on road trips. If drivers really only took 5 minutes to fill up, then Buc-ee's wouldn't exist.
Good point and actually one I had planned to cover in a future companion video to this. I visited a site here in Massachusetts over Thanksgiving that day a more mixed blend of AC and DC options. That should be up in the next couple of weeks.
All these back in stalls. This needs to change. We need drive through stalls like gas pumps. Cars and trucks with trailers are being ignored. I live in a state where recreation is a big thing. Boats, campers, utility trailers. We don't need anymore back in stalls.
I think this is “fine” for many of these types of EV urban charging hub. Drive through stalls will definitely be best for interstate travel like the PFJ sites.
Traditional stalls are more space-efficient and do work for the vast majority of people. But, I agree, a large charging site should have at least one or two pull-through stalls for oversized vehicles, such as trucks with trailers. I suppose you can always work around this by parking sideways and taking up three or more charging stalls...
Caught that one as well, but the CCS side of that site was extremely weak so I opted for Wilson. Both excellent technical tours and love the fact Branden had to pull out the Segway to get around the Halifax site quickly!
Yes on more, but we're good to go in terms of infrastructure plans. New admin isn't stopping private investment or 3-4 years of NEVI plans that are allocated and in full swing. We got this.
A slight bump maybe but I think it’s full steam ahead. Let’s see if the republicans can govern and agree to repeal parts of the IRA when they have other priorities.
@@plugandplayEVvery doubtful that private investment will do much in the less travelled areas, but I guess that’s the same as with gas stations in the middle of nowhere charge 2x the price.
For the states that cared to move on NEVI, the first years of funds will be sufficient to fill gaps as the program requires. For those that didn't or dragged heels? Not sure anyone can help them. Rivian, perhaps, if there are national parks or destinations en route. Otherwise they will be noted and avoided by increasingly large portions of drivers.
tl; dr - it's all good. There was a good explanation from EV Adoption's Loren McDonald about NEVI funding. In an interview with Chase Drum, he said that the experts he spoke with pointed out that 3 of the 5 years of allocations have already been disbursed to states. The 4th disbursement is coming in early 2025 and the final round in 2026. Basically, even if Trump's DOT impounded funds in 2025 and Congress repealed NEVI before 2026, 60% of the federal funds have already been sent to the states. Add in the private funding, not to mention state and local funding, and the infrastructure side of the equation is good.
Glad to see it's all expanding! To be brutally honest, I'm starting to think that the automakers should have just stuck with CCS, like in Europe, and use adapters if ever visiting a Tesla site. After all, Teslas already have adapters to use CCS, so why have the tail wag the dog?
Tesla finally offering to allow other manufacturers access to their existing Version 3 system tipped the balance. It did result in developing the J3400 charging standard, rather than relying on Tesla's proprietary standard. Hopefully the UL standard for the NAC plug to CCS1 is adopted soon to qualify the non tesla manufacturers. Tesla still have their existing CHAdeMO- like charging standard for the older cars in the Version 2's (half of their installed chargers) - no CCS there. Europe told Tesla to use CCS2 and it's been a year or so since they opened some sites to non Tesla's.
@@JohnRoss1 V2s & urban supercharger are only 25% of the stalls on the supercharger network so not half anymore. Not all V3 & V4 stalls are open to everyone or via NACS adapter owners in North America though. Overall though in North America over 2/3 are with over 20,000 stalls. In Europe Tesla opened up trials a couple of years ago to open for all EVs and is 90% of all European stalls over 15,000 open to all.
@Yanquetino It is one and the same CCS communication protocol used in both NA and Europe. The cable in Europe is CCS2 and fits their electrical distribution network better. Here in NA we cannot use CCS2 because our electrical configuration layout cannot support CCS2 plug hardware. (In NA we use split phase AC distribution) You should note the term "NACS" is a made up name invented by Elon - J3400 is becoming the NA standard and CCS communication protocol in part of the standard not the Tesla proprietary communication that is used in pre-2022 Tesla models just like Tesla V2 SC sites, they are not capable of CCS communications. Those pre-2022 Tesla models will need a hardware port controller upgrade in order to use J3400 complaint DC fast charger depressors from other CPO's.
You can thank Electrify America for the switch to NACS. If they had better reliability, Ford CEO wouldn’t have gone to Tesla to work out the partnership which ultimately killed CCS.
What's your definition (or favorite example) of a charging hub?
I have mixed feelings about the definition of a "hub." On one hand, hub makes me thing that it is more about the geographic location, which is to say that a hub wouldn't support a specific travel corridor or community but rather would be a central charging location for multiple corridors or communities. In other words, it would likely be on or near the intersection between two or more interstates or highways. On the other hand, I think "hub" could refer to any location where charging is secondary or only one facet of the experience. In other words, rather than making a discrete charging stop (one that you'd typically want to be as short as possible), the location of the chargers coincides with the desired destination itself. Buc-ees would be a good example of that.
For me, two that immediately come to mind are Electrify America's location in Santa Clara at the Westfield Mall (quietly one of EA's best sites) or the Marengo Parking Structure in Old Town Pasadena with both Power Up Pasadena and Tesla Superchargers. In terms of travel hubs, it's hard to argue with locations like Baker, CA's Ultra Gas & Mart, Coalinga's Harris Ranch, and the entire town of Kettleman City.
@@newscoulomb3705 does EA's Chalio's Taco site qualify as a hub?
The staffed stations like EA's San Francisco flagship and Gravity in NYC are the two best examples of urban hubs. I've never experienced a Buc-ee's but a big installation at one of their stores to support non-Teslas has be second to none.
Charging stops along rural routes is paradoxically what Tesla does so well at, but also could use so much improvement. For example, Yakima, WA has a 4-stall EA for travelers at a Walmart which is nice for a nature break. Nearby is an 8-stall V3 Supercharger at a hotel with no public restrooms. Lame.
Terrific topic! These videos & discussions really get me thinking. It's really cool that we're well past the point of copy/paste EV charging station designs. The divergency we're seeing as different CPOs build different stations as the location warrants, is fascinating to witness. What a time to be alive!
It makes sense, when we think about those deploying the infrastructure: prior to 2022, it was mostly a few similar players trying to keep it simple so that they weren't a burden to site hosts... X dispensers, X spaces from your parking lot, we'll do the rest. Now, it's the site hosts themselves actively behind the deployments or, in some cases, the charging entity buying properties to develop specifically for EVs. Much greater commitment to serving EV drivers as customers and creating a viable business for charging, rather than complying with a court mandate or just getting pins in a map. Good times, indeed.
I am thinking the flack PFJ took for being an early mover, but only putting in 4 stalls is starting to come into focus with the likes of TA, Loves, and others adding to their properties. When all is said & done, 4 per location may well be about right when there are four more across the street and 8 more the other side of the interstate viaduct. However, the builds into ride share areas take one design form and hubs in community centers follow a different design philosophy. I think we will see many divergent options on the plate come this time next year. Thank you for the video. I really enjoyed seeing the water views from Logan and the crisp execution over at Rove, courtesy of MM.
Appreciate the Gigatip ⚡👍 Four stalls cranking out EVs in 20-30 minutes for travel stops might be the bare minimum, but I think it's a fine starting point for most vendors. The clear exception is city centers and airports like this, where a few dawdling drivers immediately creates a logjam. Happens predictably at JFK and near O'Hare, as we've seen especially in winter, so building oversized hubs seems like a justifiable decision in these cases, even if there are alternatives nearby. Thanks for watching and for the sharp comment.
@@plugandplayEVI think more rideshare companies should do more. They already have agreements with other providers but there needs to be more. 1. help their drivers by offering charger installation 2. have private charging hubs for folks who can’t charge at home.
When I go to PFJ I am the only EV charging there. So if US EV sales doubled overnight (100% increase) then there would be 2 stalls in use. Over time as demand increases they can add more chargers. I wish the ev community would give them their flowers because they are doing a great job and the charging experience is amazing.
We need 40 + stalls to be the same throughput as a gas station with 8 stalls. All of which have canopies and are pull through. That’s because 5 min for gas vs 25 ish for Evs. And they have a gas station across the street…
@wasabi521 But all those gas pumps are required because every single vehicle sold only has that option to refuel. The % of EV drivers needing that 20-30 minute fill up is significantly smaller than for gassers. Stall count and power need to be considered on a location-by-location basis, rather than a blanket XX stalls or dispensers for every charge site, IMO.
To be a hub, you need a minimum of 24 hour bathroom, preferably with vending. I think the Ionna model is the way to go with dedicated sites. I think the travel stops like Flying J and Loves have that covered and just need more chargers.
Much of the next wave is going to be with the locations that already cater to road trippers. I think they see that the trend is toward more EVs even it it will be slow. They want to already be the place to go, so that habit is established.
Despite all the noise and negativity about EVs and DC fast charging, I really like what I’m seeing in the proliferation of EV chargers. The incoming administration will only be a very slight bump but it’s full steam ahead. This reminded me about the dwindling of coal and eventually, the economics will favor EVs.
My list of must-have amenities mostly includes a 24-hour restroom, good lighting, a patch of grass to take dogs out to pee, and picnic tables for eating good I brought with me in the car. I also want a place that I can get into and out of quickly, without having to fight traffic through a large, congested parking lot.
Many DCFC Hubs have their Charging Stations too close together. They are getting better, but some are really tight.
Loving the Rove hub. 😮
Still envious of Gridserve across the pond but we're getting there! Any new charging projects that we should be watching in Ireland?
Thanks, Steve! One question: What, specifically, constitutes a "charging hub?" 😀
Exactly! For me in this one, I looked at locations with 10+ stalls, mostly 180kW+ power, and some kind of distinction from the usual charging locations... extensive canopies, dedicated retail, EV-only focus, multiple hardware types... whatever made the site a bit different.
But that was more to trim the list and present just a handful of stations for consideration. I think "charging hub" probably isn't that useful a term in the long run, as the goal is more broadly to serve the specific location's user needs, but it's a suffix that is deployed often enough to warrant a closer look.
You ask a legit question! I'm curious, what would it take to reach "Charging Hub" status on the News Coulomb scorecard?
@anthonyc8499 I kind of explained it in Steve's pinned comment.
@ pffft, who even reads what that guys says?
I didn’t know that Tritium ended up being rescued, I thought they went completely under
Yep, investment from Indian firm Exicom came over the summer but didn't get too many headlines. Combination of well-known clients and US-based manufacturing in Tennessee probably made Tritium appealing. The former Freewire head honcho was also announced as Tritium CEO last week.
@@plugandplayEV it seems like Electric Era is getting a lot of business from gas stations that freewire once catered to. As a majority of EE existing/upcoming 20 or so sites are gas stations.
The Rove site is near me in Southern California. One of their upcoming sites will be within walking distance.Unfortunately/fortunately I charge at home.
Right, home charging takes away a lot of headaches. Useful for several non-home charging scenarios, however, and hopefully affordable L2 can be incorporated into some sites to help those living nearby who have no way to charge overnight.
sounds like a perfect opportunity for you to take advantage of the mini mart.
I’m hugely impressed with the Bucees stores. Charging plus a huge store with tasty road food and refreshments and lots of clean restrooms. Plus they have tons of gas pumps too for those other vehicles.
I really need to get to one, but I'm not sure I've been within several hundred miles of a Buc-ee's this year, despite crossing the country. Can't be long before I hit one of the recent Ohio locations, I'm sure.
Buc-ee's is proof that people are clueless about how much time they spend refueling on road trips. If drivers really only took 5 minutes to fill up, then Buc-ee's wouldn't exist.
Bucees is bad to workers and the owners son had hidden toilet cameras
Just wish some discussion about L2 at the Super Charging hubs.. we need a quick pick me up too.
Good point and actually one I had planned to cover in a future companion video to this. I visited a site here in Massachusetts over Thanksgiving that day a more mixed blend of AC and DC options. That should be up in the next couple of weeks.
All these back in stalls. This needs to change. We need drive through stalls like gas pumps. Cars and trucks with trailers are being ignored. I live in a state where recreation is a big thing. Boats, campers, utility trailers. We don't need anymore back in stalls.
I think this is “fine” for many of these types of EV urban charging hub. Drive through stalls will definitely be best for interstate travel like the PFJ sites.
Traditional stalls are more space-efficient and do work for the vast majority of people. But, I agree, a large charging site should have at least one or two pull-through stalls for oversized vehicles, such as trucks with trailers.
I suppose you can always work around this by parking sideways and taking up three or more charging stalls...
I like the hub idea, a chance to talk to other e owners
Unless it's rideshare drivers... often we'll just see them taking a nap or having lunch!
We need all stations to be plug and change just like roaming works with cell phone networks.
Ready and waiting for this... lots of layers but we are getting closer.
There is a tesla supercharger with 60 stalles Halifax N C Branden Flasch made a video about it
Caught that one as well, but the CCS side of that site was extremely weak so I opted for Wilson. Both excellent technical tours and love the fact Branden had to pull out the Segway to get around the Halifax site quickly!
It wasn't clear to me from the review, what amenities are at the Halifax location?
we just need more. everywhere. anything. unfortunately the next 4 years will set this all back permanently.
Yes on more, but we're good to go in terms of infrastructure plans. New admin isn't stopping private investment or 3-4 years of NEVI plans that are allocated and in full swing. We got this.
A slight bump maybe but I think it’s full steam ahead. Let’s see if the republicans can govern and agree to repeal parts of the IRA when they have other priorities.
@@plugandplayEVvery doubtful that private investment will do much in the less travelled areas, but I guess that’s the same as with gas stations in the middle of nowhere charge 2x the price.
For the states that cared to move on NEVI, the first years of funds will be sufficient to fill gaps as the program requires. For those that didn't or dragged heels? Not sure anyone can help them. Rivian, perhaps, if there are national parks or destinations en route. Otherwise they will be noted and avoided by increasingly large portions of drivers.
tl; dr - it's all good.
There was a good explanation from EV Adoption's Loren McDonald about NEVI funding. In an interview with Chase Drum, he said that the experts he spoke with pointed out that 3 of the 5 years of allocations have already been disbursed to states. The 4th disbursement is coming in early 2025 and the final round in 2026. Basically, even if Trump's DOT impounded funds in 2025 and Congress repealed NEVI before 2026, 60% of the federal funds have already been sent to the states. Add in the private funding, not to mention state and local funding, and the infrastructure side of the equation is good.
Glad to see it's all expanding! To be brutally honest, I'm starting to think that the automakers should have just stuck with CCS, like in Europe, and use adapters if ever visiting a Tesla site. After all, Teslas already have adapters to use CCS, so why have the tail wag the dog?
Tesla finally offering to allow other manufacturers access to their existing Version 3 system tipped the balance. It did result in developing the J3400 charging standard, rather than relying on Tesla's proprietary standard. Hopefully the UL standard for the NAC plug to CCS1 is adopted soon to qualify the non tesla manufacturers. Tesla still have their existing CHAdeMO- like charging standard for the older cars in the Version 2's (half of their installed chargers) - no CCS there.
Europe told Tesla to use CCS2 and it's been a year or so since they opened some sites to non Tesla's.
@@JohnRoss1 V2s & urban supercharger are only 25% of the stalls on the supercharger network so not half anymore.
Not all V3 & V4 stalls are open to everyone or via NACS adapter owners in North America though.
Overall though in North America over 2/3 are with over 20,000 stalls.
In Europe Tesla opened up trials a couple of years ago to open for all EVs and is 90% of all European stalls over 15,000 open to all.
@Yanquetino It is one and the same CCS communication protocol used in both NA and Europe. The cable in Europe is CCS2 and fits their electrical distribution network better. Here in NA we cannot use CCS2 because our electrical configuration layout cannot support CCS2 plug hardware. (In NA we use split phase AC distribution) You should note the term "NACS" is a made up name invented by Elon - J3400 is becoming the NA standard and CCS communication protocol in part of the standard not the Tesla proprietary communication that is used in pre-2022 Tesla models just like Tesla V2 SC sites, they are not capable of CCS communications. Those pre-2022 Tesla models will need a hardware port controller upgrade in order to use J3400 complaint DC fast charger depressors from other CPO's.
You can thank Electrify America for the switch to NACS. If they had better reliability, Ford CEO wouldn’t have gone to Tesla to work out the partnership which ultimately killed CCS.
@@kelviskelvis7140 Already knew all this. Nothing new here.
Austin unfortunately voted against Ionity
I might have missed this... did IONNA have a planned site in Austin, TX that was refused by the city or residents?