Not so obvious GriGri Mistake!
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- Опубликовано: 28 май 2022
- GriGri mistake that many Climbers are not aware of can result in Burned Hands.
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As someone who doesn't climb... I saw no difference in any of these techniques and am even more confused then I was when I asked myself "why am I watching a video about climbing? I don't climb"
You should try it. It’s pretty fun
I came here to se what the hell is a GriGri! I learned practically nothing!
Same and same
I too had a moment of realization
Welcome gentlemen, i too have no idea why im here or what a grigri is.
This is not only for gri-gri, this applies to ALL belay-devices. The climber-side is the “hot” part of the rope. This is what I teach when working as an instructor.
While the logic applies to all belay devices, I think the problem is most apparent in GriGri's since they can annoyingly lock up. Thus a belayer may try to do this "hack?" where they are unknowingly allowing excessive amounts of slack in the line. On a standard ATC this is less likely to occur because the excess slack will be stored on the climber side not on the break side such as this.
I mean it applies to any situation in the world that involves a rope or line and a pully or a winch, the most concerning part of the whole thing is that someone would suggest that there may be a problem with the equipment after doing that 😳
Self belaying devices can fail in similar fashion (like a rack and bar system) and if you are counting on a jumar to save you, it better be above eye level, or you will bounce your tailbone off the sidewalk in front of the Cleveland Public Library... hypothetically.
The grigri encourages bad behavior, it frequently forces climbers to use it inappropriately. When climbing you are thinking quickly, your gear should be designed so that you don't have to think. The grigri is unique in its wide adoption yet level of complexity it requires to use. I've seen multiple falls and mistakes due to misused grigris by very experienced climbers who are highly attentive. I have rarely seen those falls occur on ATCs when the climber is attentive. I do think auto locking can be beneficial for when a belayer is inattentive or knocked out but I think other devices such as the mammut smart Belay better micro the function of the ATC and encourage better habits.
With the vergo it only happens if the loop of slack is sufficiently small as to sit above the device, if it's hanging down at all the weight of the rope is sufficient to cause it to lock. You never have to override the locking mechanism with the vergo so it will always lock when used correctly
As I said before - despite 30 years climbing, being a rock climbing instructor, an IRATA Level 3 with 16,000 hrs experience and a rope access instructor, I am happy that this guy takes me back to school.
He’s a talented and knowledgeable instructor.
Yea right and I’m the president of the United States😂😂😂 stop lying pal
All the best to you.
I’m not sure that misuse causing injury is part of the game but hey, it’s another perspective I guess. I get the whole scars as badges of honour thing.
16000 hours experience he says lol
Tf are you a pilot? Gonna destroy India and save Pakistan?
@@entername5706 fecking hilarious when you see comments like yours that cannot fathom being employed in a fairly normal job for 5 or 6 years, how sheltered.
I was actually taught by an instructor at my local gym to give slack like this on grigri... Thank you Ben for this video. Now I need to revisit my belaying technique with grigri.
That is one of the common mistakes that some belayers do while using Grigri , thank you so much for your efforts ! Your work on this channel is brilliant 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Love your vids and that’s a great point of failure. One notice: Reducing slack or give rope fast without using your rope or belay device is just by moving dynamic, a thing not many climbers do. With one step you can take nearly a meter of rope. Or give. So you don’t need to have so much slack.
Very common tactic in European competitions …at least back in the 90s and 00s.
such an underrated technique, and in most courses they dont even mention it. saved my ass a couple of times, especially when the climber needs rope immediately to clip.
@@fantaboy1309 in my courses this is one of the biggest covered topics. Also, belaying starts to get fun if you belay dynamically. You just got more work to do, be way more safe and faster. It saved my ass so often, I can’t count.
Was a core skill when I was taught last year. Failing to move in those situations would certainly result in criticism from the instructor.
@@kennykirstges I'm not talking about belaying dynamically of course, that should be basic. I'm talking about intelligent positioning while belaying and giving slack (faster) by getting a step closer to the wall or reducing slack by going a step back while taking in slack (obviously not standing far away from the wall). two different topics, maybe i worded it not precisely enough.
I love the in depth experiments you do to build your case. You make the best educational videos on climbing gear I know of. Keep up the good work!
Thank you for being the one that illuminates less than obvious dangers of climbing! I love always learning something new about climbing safety!
I literally figured this “trick” out today… didn’t realize it was actually the same as having a huge amount of slack in the line… good timing on the video, I won’t do that again!
An easy way to avoid the death grip while feeding on a grigri is instead of taking your thumb and holding the cam down, you press your thumb forward into the back of the cam. It will still hold the cam down so you can feed, but if there is a fall, the cam will still engage since you aren't holding it down, but instead pressing on the back of it with a small amount of pressure. I wish more people knew about this.
Interesting, I’ll have to try that out! I tend to try to mostly handle slack with dynamic body movement and avoiding the cam (with gentle enough slack gives that I don’t need to press), so this might be a nice middle ground where I can give a bit more slack faster while keeping a bit more of a conservative belay style
Seems like such an awkward hack.... Why is the GriGri the most popular auto-locking belay device? Device use should be simple, obvious, and natural otherwise it is not safe.
@@skicreature its not an auto locking device. its an assisted braking device.
Hi Ben,
nice video! One short point about the last solution that you showed: This might only be possible with nice and new ropes. Older ropes tend to lock the grigri when it's used with the tube style belaying.
Yeap, if rope is thick / fuzzy / stiff it's harder to feed slack in Tube style. On a flip side it's also less likely to make GriGri not lock ;)
@@HardIsEasy right! Didn't thought about that 😅
yes, my fat 10.2 won't feed through unless I block with thumb
I just experienced this last week at the gym, one rope in particular was super hard to pull through the grigri even taking in slack, and it was definitely on the well-used side.
I know absolutely nothing about climbing, but I love how you went straight to the point. I still don’t know what’s going on, thank you though!
Excellent thoughtfully produced explanation of this belay danger. Having climbed many years my feed hand has “learned” to use a very light fingertips and thumb grip when giving slack. This way if (and when) the rope is suddenly pulled tight during a fall, the tightening rope is harmlessly plucked from my finger tips only grip.
couldn't agree more.
Thank you for showing AND explaining these things. It's been said you can't always just tell people what's happening sometimes you have to show them . . .
Bottom line... PAY ATTENTION no matter what device you are using.
Yeah, this is the most important advice. Don't get lazy and find tricks or shortcuts, with the safety devices. You are litteraly holding the life of your friend in a thin thread - that's not the time to play around. Stay focused.
I'm a boulderer and not a rope climber, but a few months ago I saved a kid from getting seriously hurt in the rope section. Some friends were there and one of the had their kid with them, aprox 10 y.o. One of the adults in the group has the card for ropeclimbing and were setting up the knots and everything as the kid was going to toprope. The kid obviously had no idea and there were none of the other adults in that group that knew what was going on. The kid had just startet climbing, done a few moves off the ground when I luckily randomly came over. I've seen enough climbing videos and videos about how to belay, that even though I don't climb rope myself, I could immediately see that something was wrong with this setup. I yelled at the kid to come down and asked the belayer what they were doing. They didn't see anything wrong. Care to take a guess what they had done?
Well, the kid was supposed to toprope ... The belayer had setup the rope and safety device as if the kid was supposed to lead. Resulting in both the climber and the belayer being on the same end of the rope. Imagine if that kid had climbed to the top(which she easily did when this error was corrected) and then jumped into thin air ... The belayer excused themselves by saying something about them always climbing lead and just acting out of habits.
The buddy check is there for a reason and my take from this, is that if your buddy doesn't know what they are doing, have someone else assist in that buddy check. I still get chills when thinking about it.
@@hecatommyriagon655 That sounds really insane. I just took my girlfriend climbing for the first time yesterday. She obviously had no idea about anything and I only belayed, no climbing. I was actually more stressed than her, particularly because she couldn't really check my rope setup.
It was a fixed top rope setup with carabiners instead of knots to tie in, otherwise I wouldn't have done that. I also told her to just try and sit in the rope at ground level and again one meter off the ground so she could get comfortable when really I wanted to make sure that the setup is correct and would lock in case of a fall, regardless of me having experience with climbing and belaying.
Thanks for your advices🙏🏻
Excellent video as always. Thanks!
Thanks Ben, good advice!
Very nice video, which also demonstrates the outcome of a wrong belay, making it much more persuasive about correct belaying.
Love the channel. Defintely some of the best content out there.
Belaying ATC style is so much easier with the GriGri v.1.0. Mine is going strong decades later and is so much easier to use than the 2. It would be very helpful if Petzl took a serious second look at how grabby their Grigri 2 is on 9.5-10mm ropes (which many climbers use especially while working routes) and reissued the Grigri 1. 😀
Also Petzl, in their instructional video, emphasizes the need for the belayer to move forward to give slack and I think this is because in reality with the "finger under the lip" brake-hand position, you really have maybe 2/2.5 fingers on the braking side of the rope which is not exactly secure. It's easier and safer for the belayer to move a step forward (1 meter or so) staying in ATC mode, especially close to the ground, so if they need to retrieve slack quickly they can step back and easily pull slack in with a proper grip. I see many climbers in constant "finger under the lip" brake-hand slack feeding mode which to me does not seem entirely safe in a committing close to the ground situation.
This is a great point, thanks for the video!
The best way for me is a combination of what yo said. I always try to " throw " the rope up when giving slack and NEVER hold onto it. The locking end is the one you NEVER want to let go of.
Great safety/instruction video.
With the current 230k views you probably saved some hands/fingers, good job man :)
Great explanation. Thanks a lot!!! 👏👏👏
Really really good explanation! Thanks!!
I needed to see this. Burn avoided - Thank you for sharing.
Another thought on rope management:
Once I have played out rope I tend to pull on the pile, then throw the slack in front of me at the base of the wall. In this way I can ensure that I have plenty of slack at the ready and will be instantly aware of any issues with knots in the rope, obstructions, catching on something, standing on it etc, so that I am well prepared for the next demand for slack.
I call this my "Fly fishing" technique - though of course I am pulling downwards and backwards, rather than upwards and backwards as you might a fishing rod, but you get the point.....
I also ensure that the rope is pulled through into a fresh pile before the climb even starts, so I can be sure it will not tangle in the first place.
I don't do climbing or anything of the sort but that was some no bs information that seemed extremely helpful, Good Video and good explanation
Thank you!!! Very informative
Great safety tip!
No idea what this is about but now I know what not to do if I'm ever giving rope to a climber and we are using a gri-gri. Thank you for the information and demonstrating what could happen.
You are the hero we need, not the hero we deserve. I tell all my Grigri friends about the info you drop on us
Great advice!.
I don't know what the heck a grigri is, yet here I am
Thanks for your sharing
just bought one thank you for this information on video
Burned the same way...thanks for discussing it!
i don't even climb but i think this just taught me more about how a rope with a pully or whatever should be handled period.
I love your masterclass videos and I was wondering if you could do a video on guide books and whether or not to use an app vs guide books. This would be super helpful.
Short answer: depends on the area.
Guidebooks are almost always worth it and they’re best used in conjunction with Mountain Project or your regional equivalent
Very informative and nice details to know :)
Thanks great again Video!!!
Idk how or why the algorithm led me here today
But have not did any repelling since the army 27 years ago
Thank you for the reminder of gloves when working with rope
Thanks!
Thank You as well!
I'm glad you tried that with a glove!
You rules!!! Thanks
I own a grigri, I've climbed for 30 years. I bought it to give to beginners but soon learned while it's great for top roping the possible failures make it anything but beginner friendly for anything else.
Very cool video, thanks! I will have to consciously review how I give slack. I actually hit the deck in a similar situation once. In this case, I fell while clipping, and (we think) that my belayer didn't grab the passive rope, and instead tried to arrest the fall by grabbing the active rope. This probably resulted in the rope passing at a slow speed through the gri-gri, so that it didn't block until he burned his hand and let go of the rope. He had a similar injury as the one in the picture. Had he been using an un-assisted device and I would have hit the ground with full force, instead of hitting it while decelerating by the elasticity of the rope.
hi, read my other comment hi hope it can help you, and hopefully you are both ok by now. Beside that, I always racomand to climb closer as possible to the clip before clipping RATHEN than pulling a lot of slack to clip above your head for example. This can be very dangerous when clipping the second or 3rd quickdraw as you are still close to the ground and your belayer would need to pull more rope than he could for you to not hit the deck. Peace.
@@AlmostTom thanks for the advice, I am concious of that. I try to indeed clip from waist level, although it is quite difficult to resist the tentation to clip as soon as I have the bolt at reach. I try to do it only in the case that the clipping position is obviously more comfortable below.
I have to add that I simplified in my comment. I wasn't actually clipping, I was looking for a good handhold and my partner thought that my movement corresponded to clipping, so I did not find said handhold and fell with all the slack he had given me. We are perfectly fine, he was more damaged than me actually, but it was months ago and everything is luckily fine, thanks for the concern :)
Great video! Also belay gloves are a good idea in general :)
Love the way you say grigri
I really love that slo-mo music
have no idea what grigri is or anything about climbing, but now I am informed about a nasty rope burn. thanks
I was actually taught to do this by an instructor. Pretty valuable video right there.
It's the best way to belay with a gri gri, just don't cam the gri gri all the time.
Awesome review! Thanks fro sharing! Have a great weekend my friend
nice voice :) chill and mellow
Where was this video last week?! I did this exact same thing on Friday morning. Luckily was wearing fingerless gloves so it didn’t burn my entire hand. Just bad timing from slack/no slack and a fall. Great video and explanation.
Grigri is super cool but I personally prefer assisted tubers
Could you dissect commun mistakes made with those please please please
Yeap, I think I have one at least already worth checking... :)
@@HardIsEasy thank you so much
Your work is amazing
Even tho I’ll never do this or know what you guys are talking about, now I know thanks.
Whit any belay devise, when your climber falls, you should always free the climber rope and hold on the belay rope. If your hands are burning this bad, it is because you instinctively tighten the rope.Experience and practice may help to memorize the movement of freeing the climber rope. But yes, the best thing to do is use the proper technique, even if you slow your climber.
From the amount of mishaps people have with Grigri, have often do you think “I’ll keep to my simple belay device!”.
Nice video, might save quite a few people their skin 😄
Would you consider doing a multi pitch video?
Good video, I have always held a loop in my hand as it means I never have to touch the cam and I will never short rope. That loop is prep you can do in the moments before clipping, that plus a step forward is usually enough slack for the leader to clip.
The problem is when you do this AND thumb the cam which is bad technique in my opinion
That's exactly what I do. Have the loop of rope but don't use thumb on the cam until pulling slack. if climber falls while pulling slack just remove thumb and move brake hand down to hip.
In y'all's opinion would it make more sense for gyms to enforce the Petzl official method as you can tell from a distance that the brake hand is usually engaged, far from the divice, and the method kind of ensures that the rope won't be held in position to by-pass the cam?
I was taught to never touch the cam when giving slack. Solves the problem.
This got recommended to me
I'm not into climbing(even tho I enjoy it)
I have a crippling fear of hights
I did not understand a single thing that was said
But you seem very enthusiastic
Thanks
Cheers Sam! Helps a ton!
Don't climb at all (only experience was camp and bouldering) but I watched this full through because of how informative it was. Heck, I might even buy a GriGri.
After all I saw about GriGri on your channel and how many belayers I've seen using it not very properly, I'm getting very nervous about beeing belayed by that device ! Just bought a Black Dimond ATC Pilot...
Very interesting not what I expected as from the thumbnails I thought it was a new design pocketknife 😂
This looks like the Garand Thumb of climbing, ouch. I don't see myself climbing any time soon, but just in case... I'm gonna give this one a rewatch...
Muchas gracias para las videos. As I was able to experiment, giving slack like in 2:40, it works with a max 9.5mm rope, otherwise it engages and blocks. Just an info ;)
This is why petzl says to only hold the grigri and disable the cam when giving slack for a clip. All other times they want you to push the rope through the device like you did but the entire time while belaying. I find it much easier that way rather that holding the grigri the entire time. I try to always wear leather gloves while belaying as well, would have prevented the burned fingers.
Exactly do what he said.
what i learned is take the brake side of the Rope and tear it to the ground while holding the blocker as tight as possible because it doesen`t matter if you get exhausted if you manage to save a live in the process and i also got to this at least once in my life with everyone alive i also got saved like this often enaugh so i know both sides in this matter but i never burned my hands looks painful
Great, I am not using gri gri but nice to know that.
I developed the habit of matching my top hand with the hand on the break end of the rope.
A point of discussion on the second reason mentioned for belayers incorrectly giving slack is when you have a thicker type of rope (9.8 mm), which gets pretty thick as it ages. That gives it a lot of resistance in the Grigri and makes it hard to give slack "slowly". Not saying this rationalizes giving slack wrong, but it complicates the situation. No worries, I bought a new rope.
Gri-gris are the best thing ever! Once I get to the top of a cell tower, I'll rig up my gri-gri, and a safety. Makes things 1000x easier.
That's why I use the Beale Birdie.
I use a similar camming device called lifeguard. I don't recognize the issue. I think mostly because I don't need to manually hold down the cam to give slack. Just feed it through like an ATC.
Hi Ben, it’s a while you make videos about grigri belaying mistakes, and watching them I was asking myself “why do people still belay with grigri?”
Aren’t the mammut smart or the balck diamond atc pilot safer? Or at least there is less possibility to use them wrong?
Thank you
I use a Smart 2.0, and the answer is no, assisted tubular devices are not safer. Assisted camming devices tend to have a much greater braking force from less rope pull, and this also means a greater range of rope diameters work and the likelihood of stopping the rope entirely is higher. However, a belayer can feel as though they need to do nothing to brake and often instead have to fight with the device to give large amounts of slack. This leads to people with poor habits, either being complacent (the same as with those using nonassisted devices since they’ve worked thus far) or having techniques to override the device which have unsafe instances (which he has demonstrated before).
If you used around a 9.3 rope or much smaller with a Pilot, I guarantee the same hand burning on the guide hand can happen as the rope will still slip, and the same for all assisted tubular devices at some diameter of single rope (the Pilot has been the least braking force from my experience, the Jul series the most).
Someone can be safe with any device, but should be assisted braking for most single pitch or leading scenarios because no matter how safe there can always be a mistake or incident which means the belayer cannot keep a brake hand on such as rockfall or just being tripped or reacting to something like a rattlesnake underfoot.
Thank you for the warning. As a beginning noob climber, its always nice to have advice. Tho the teacher said to keep the rope stretched and never loose so not sure if this problem would happen to begin with
Noticed in the practical video (the one when he’s outside) he was lifted a little, if I had to guess he was the anchor weight for the falling object once the brake was applied. Any slack on the rope may delay the fall arrest of the climber up head
I don’t climb what so ever but it’s kool what to do in case you gotta spot your buddy
The first rule of rope climbing: Never dangle from a rope or rely on a rope or even leave ground level ever
Could you make a video of how to download a route that was not completed without abandoning material? Your videos are great! Greetings! 🇲🇽♥️
I work in one of the biggest climbing gyms in South America, and this is a big problem that we have to take care of. A lot of climbers make this mistake, and worse they are already addicted.
You should do a close up of what you mean when you say pressing on the gri gris cam.
You would only get burnt hand if you gripped the non brake hand side. I think learning with tubalar device teaches you to always lock off on a fall instinctively.
No idea why this showed up in my recommended videos. I also have no clue what the hell a GriGri is or does; I just like hearing this guy say it. 👍🏽
I never imagined doing that with a grigri! No belayer I've trained does that!
Litterally just use a Mammut smart (or similar device) for lead belaying. I have and use my grigri for plenty of things but not that.
keeping your rope in a bag is the way to go it keeps the rope from getting tangled as you pay it out and keeps things nice and clean
A pair of all-round gloves costs about 2 to 5€/$ in any supply store, I always wear them to belay, be it outside or in a gym. Very useful for keeping your hands clean too because the rope is often full of dirt.
Thanks for the vid, as always! Have a nice day!
sorry but your rope, ideally, should be full fo dirt in the first place, and second, the day you forgot your gloves you will put yourself in a situation you never been before. Just my thought, be safe
Hey there, what kind of wallsetup do you have, since you have some anchor points in the wall and ceiling? I was wondering what kind of Materials and fastners you're using. Would love to build something similar myself.
that is why i use grigri only with a top rope setup
The error is not in “prefeeding” a loop of slack for ease but in holding onto the climber side strand with the guide hand. The guide hand does nothing in that position. Stop trying to “hand” the climber rope cause your rope isn’t rigid. Feed out slack then move the guide hand back towards the device if you need to feed out more or also grab the brake strand or protect yourself you’re in a better position.
As to the “prefeeding” loop, this runs smoother through the device by increasing the bend radius of the rope, not making the rope necessarily more neatly stacked or only because of taking in and feeding back out slack. If you drop the brake hand from the device when a fall occurs then little to no rope will run through the device, and at worse another foot does. However, get the guide hand away from the rope.
Exactly, it's much easier to feed the rope through the gri gri this way and negates the need to cam the gri gri all the time. It's exactly how I belay and the only time I'm camming the gri gri all the time is when I have to endure my partners fat, shitty 10 year old ropes.
Really. There is no reason while lead belaying that your hand non brake hand should be hanging out away from the device. Especially if you have a loop already. You should be looping up what you are capable of pulling through the device anyways.
I had this happen to me on a retractable dog leash, when a neighbor kid was taunting my 90lb black lab.
It happened so quick, that even my fast reflexes didn’t help! Smoked my skin, very similar to these pictures! 😖😫
As an instructor I teach the “rodeo loop” method. It has nothing to do with being afraid of the rope snagging as you’ve stated (that’s what a flake is for). This method allows you to belay without needing to deactivate the cam with your thumb, while keeping your brake hand below the device and in the “primary belay position” as much as is possible and being more dynamic as a belayer, as petzl recommends, I love it!
I'm climbing at Vertical World Seattle, that one, trying to pass my belay test on gri-gri. I think we're on the same page that you normally just feed a bit of slack at a time this keeps your brake hand ENGAGED on the rope at least 70% of the time as you feed it through. Idea is your climber is climbing slower than you're feeding them slack.
They're teaching to default to cam suppression position, suppressing the cam and putting the rope in a very deactivating position for the cam. Problem is it's primed for accidents and it's hard to enforce proper technique. Good luck instructors.
My best suggestions on this matter:
beside that this can happen on any device, a balayer should teach him/herself to "let go" on the active/climber/hot end of the rope as you feel pulling.
If I see my partner falling I let go on my left hand (I'm using gri gri). If for any reason my partner fall and I was looking away (for WHATEVER reasons) and i "feel" a fall: i let go my left and, again.
If the climber is just pulling rope cause you cant see him/her or cause you didn't give rope quickly enough, you can definitely recognize it not being a fall. Practice falling with your partner above the 3rd clip (at least), it will improve your confidence as a climber and as a belayer. You need to learn how to fall, and how to belay a fall, so important.
Just brake a fall with your "brake" end of the rope, no point to hold on the rope above the belay, you will just burn your hand. It's a good practice also on a gri gri as letting go on the left hand means TO NOT PULL THE HANDLE, wich would result on a fall of the climber (different from gri gri +).
Be good:)
Ever see an image of an injury and immediately 'feel' the pain of the image? Yeah, this thumbnail did it to me too.
In the test video it looks like you continue to hold the cam with your thumb through the fall resulting in the loop being pulled through.
Just happened to me. Fortunatly it was indoor.