Why are Smashers Bad at Fighting Games?
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- Опубликовано: 21 июн 2023
- I go over what exactly is missing from a Smash player's skillset when playing fighting games, and why that skill discrepancy exists.
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I feel like the reverse is true, I still remember the time SonicFox thought he could learn smash and fight ZeRo of all people
yeah it goes both ways for sure, I know plenty of people coming from traditional fighters that struggle to grasp smash.
I'm not interested in Sonicfox, but I always hear that he is arrogant. He had played Tekken for the first time, and while abusing an overpowered DLC character, was under the impression that the game must just be easy.
@@bonfist7277 can't deny his skill tho its crazy how he can pick up on fighting games so quick
The reverse isn't true in the slightest most fighting game fans dont even see smash as a fighting game
@@theultimateartist4153not true that's just you actually. And now it's becoming very cringe to say that. I come from traditional 2d fighters not a smasher and I think you're whack.
It's like comparing boxing and grappling two very different disciplines.
Even wrestling and grappling are very different in the things they learn.
More like boxing and kick boxing, there are a lot of similarities but because of the the slight differences in what is allowed it changes the whole gameplan. You have to stand further away, block lower, catch and check kicks etc.
I think the biggest thing is block pressure in smash is much different in all other fighters because it’s a shield that shrinks and not a stance that protects you from some angles but not others.
Nah, one of friends play smash bros a lot and he destroys me at 95% of fighting games
Smash is fundamentally different from other games in the FGC. It can be argued that people who play traditional fighters cannot transition to smash either.
I think that the same argument can be made about traditional fighting game players coming over to Smash. As a Smash, Rivals of Aether, and Guilty Gear Strive player (though I mainly play Smash), every fighting game player that I've played Smash with thinks they're good and ends up losing terribly in Smash against me every match. Meanwhile, when we play their game, it only takes me like 3 rounds before I'm able to adjust and start going even with them despite having just learned the game's buttons. There was a specific guy who had a fight stick and wanted me to play Guilty Gear X with him (I had never played that game prior) after I was beating him in Smash. He won most of the games, but I was still able to win a few with a character that's not even in Strive after learning his command inputs. I really do think that fundamentals transfer over between fighting games, including Smash. What transitioning players fail to do is contextualize fundamentals within the mechanics of the game they are playing. Game mechanics, punishes, and tech are usually the easiest parts of fighting games to learn. For more experienced players, the hardest part of a fighting game is actually neutral.
Yeaah, i also transitioned into traditional fighters quite some time ago. At first i was a bit lost but quickly realized they are very similar in a fundamental level.
Idk man I didnt really have this problem, I got good at fighting games pretty quick coming from Smash
This video is a generalization of the topic, and it's extremely common. You're missing the point.
@@OrenMystery I dont really think I missed the point. He is saying that Smash players have a hard time translating their skill into fighting games. I have played Smash in tourney long enough to know that A LOT of tournament level Smash players have 0 skill, and plenty of characters in Smash dont teach any fundies. Its not that they cant translate the skill, they just dont have it. Every Smash player Ive known who was actually good at Smash and went on to play a fighting game got good at that without any kind of struggle. A guy from my region who was low PR in Smash went on to get 2nd at a major in GBVS. Another guy from my region who was Unranked (but good) in Smash Top 8’d a major in Strive. I dont think anyone knew that either of these guys were Smash players so it went under the radar, but their skill didnt just translate, they got way better at the fighting game than they were at Smash. If you understand fighting game concepts, getting good at a new game is just about gaining knowledge of the game and how those concepts apply to it. So long as you have the foundation, this is very intuitive by simply playing the game. The average smash player does not have the foundation Im afraid.
@@Yvs8962 That's... you know I have to agree with you. I can't really disagree with anything.
Yeah it wasn’t too different for me either. TFG just feel more like a turn based rpg, where responses need to be exact and positioning/movement is more committal. Just gotta slow down.
Daaang he bridging the gap
yooo, very cool video, definitely want more of smash to traditionnal FG comparaisons.
If you have some 3D fighter / tekken experience, would love those comparaisons too to not leave the tekken people out.
I've been trying traditional fighting games lately and from someone coming out of playing smash daily it was so frustrating I caught myself mashing and pushing myself to the corner and all of these bad habits just made it worst, I've learnt to be more patient and more focused on the buttons I press and this has translated beautifully into my smash gameplay I stared with SF6 a few weeks ago I'm still dropping combos but at least I'm making my way up into the rank currently about to hit gold and going up just grinding and practicing great video!
Yeah I'm lost in most fighting games where you can't play the game of footsies like you do in Smash. I try to fade backwards predicting an aerial and not only do I not have the movement speed to get out of range, I actually give the opponent even better positioning. The extra movement is such a huge part of what I practice in Smash that I need to remind myself constantly not to do it or I revert back to monke brain.
Try KOF. You get hops, hop pressure, rolls and a guard cancel.
Try tekken lol, game is footsies on crack
that’s how i feel going from tekken to any 2d fighter
It’s literally that. The fact that once I press that jump button, I’m just fucked, doesn’t sit well with me. You just cannot abuse aerial movement in FGs the way that you can in Smash.
@@kode-man23 The Movement and options are generally mega ass in fighting games. This explains why Tekken and Smash are so popular with casuals. And why Smash and Tekken are able to so much more with their gameplay designs and boss battles.
People in the comments acting like you can't be a Smash player AND a fighting game player, and that Smash isn't a fighting party game that can be customized to be more of a fighting game or party game. Smash Ultimate literally has a mode inspired by KOF, as well as a KOF stage that would transition perfectly into a fighter. You can play in stamina mode which works like traditional fighting game health bars, toggle what are essentially super meters, and, iirc you can adjust the gravity in your matches, though I might be wrong on that one. You can also add rounds like in fighting games (rounds are separate from stocks, so you can change it to be one stock per round if you want to be more authentic to the feel of a traditional fighter), and adjust the clock.
For me it's quite the opposite I just think I'm just bad but I can see how powerful those fundies are when properly utilize them
I really enjoyed the video TY HIPPO!
I can totally relate. I started off with fighting games playing Smash Bros and Pokken Tournament. Everything I learned in those games were very different from any of the traditional fighting games I played later and I was never very good at traditional fighters. The same thing happened to my friend who loves smash bros but refuses to play Mortal Kombat again.
Riddles, Dabuz, and Void all do pretty well in SF tho
Anti-airs are specifically attacks from the ground which attack an opponent out of the air. Blocking or dashing, then punishing is not an anti air.
I've been playing Smash and fighting games for about the same amount of time (my first Smash game was Brawl and first fighting game was Street Fighter 4, started playing both in my early teens). Most of that time I was playing fighting games casually and Melee was what I was trying to get good at in late high school early college. Ultimately though I never really reached a state where I was what I would call competent in Smash, but in more recent years as I've put time into fighting games I feel a lot more competent in them than I ever was in Smash. I think a lot of it is just high level Smash never meshed with me, largely due to the game's controls. It's very easy to do the wrong thing by accident in Smash because multiple actions are mapped to the same inputs, the only thing separating them being how fast or how long you press a direction on the analog stick, and it's often very nebulous what minute thresholds need to be hit to get one move over another. Trying to get an up-tilt at moment's notice in Melee rather than a tap jump or up-smash is extremely frustrating, especially in the heat of the moment. In my opinion it's actually not very well designed (I know this is a kind of controversial take). In fighting games on the other hand I can pretty much get exactly what I want when I want it with almost no ambiguity, and motion inputs were a minor hurdle I got over really quickly even as a casual player. Now when I drop a combo, it's just a flub on my end, not an extremely minute and imperceptible difference in how fast I tap the stick in a direction. I also feel like I just understand how neutral interactions work in fighting games better. I'm better at picking up on patterns, better at knowing how to respond to my opponent, better at making reads, better at mixups, better at combos and punishes, everything. That comes down more to just having the brain for it I think. I can see myself sticking to fighting games for a while but truth be told, I have no interest to ever go back to Smash, except maybe Melee every once in a while casually because the tech is admittedly fun to mess with.
Absolute f***ing tune playing in the background 👌🏻🔥
Please do more of these, you got a subscribe!
I started playing Ultimate in 2021, and am now playing SF6. Anti-Airs seem to be one of the easiest things to get right. Like, if somebody jumps, I just hit side B with Juri and that's that. I'm still in bronze and nobody is getting the jump in on me, my matches are almost all complete stomps, or I get stomped.
Learning pokes and neutral in regular fighters is the hardest part, IMHO.
Are you using modern controls?
@@mr.thammisses6119 Depends on the character, for Juri yes, for AKI no, and for most other characters yes.
It's real hit or miss whether they're any good.
I'm in Plat now, for what it's worth.
I also use modern. Its a great segue from smash imo. Also, as Juri you’re really fast, so you can get past neutral pretty quickly and force your opponent to try to strike/throw. Try having a fox mindset!
what's tech chasing?
long time melee player who picked up sf6. ive tried and played street fighter and tekken from time to time growing up but never immersed myself into any fighting game other than melee until i bought sf6 on release. for me with the 30 hours ive put into playing the game as ken so far, i actually anti air and jump too much in street fighter just from habit of always short hopping in melee and performing neutral airs as fox. it's been a really bad habit while playing ken, as so many people just perform one anti air move from the ground for free damage. the biggest problem for me is the lack of space you're given in this game along with lack of platforms. i really like melee's movement which makes me run and jump around the stage a lot for that smooth movement dopamine hit, which i think translates to why i jump approach too much in sf6. i also play only aggressively which in this game is much more punished than trying to bait a move in melee. this was a great video, and i absolutely love taking my opponent to the corner of the arena as ken and comboing over and over again
Try KOF.
give tekken a 2nd chance sometime cause the movement can be crazy and rewarding af
@@myjokeisfunny-laughThat’s grounded movement though. Smash-brainers need that sweet, sweet aerial control. It’s like drugs to us 😂
Excellent video!
I'm not a smasher but I suck at fighting games does that count?
I first started in smash and now play tekken. i havent touched smash in what seems years, and it feels like i would play better in it than i did before
oh wait people actually do? (im really asking since ive played between smash games and fighting games like street fighter nearly my whole life not even adding the others i love to play i just never really noticed it heck my whole smash carrer has been meta knight plus sonic so i wonder how people tackled this problem that i never felt)
Its a bigger learning curve since it has more inputs than two buttons on a SMB.
depends if its a bad smash player of course they would suck at normal fighting games but I've seen multiple good smash players pick another fighting game and grasp it pretty quickly. I would consider myself a smash player since its the fighting game i've played the most but I played SF soulcal and MK a bit before and during my time playing smash bros from melee to now and just now getting into tekken I've already reached purple ranks and beating my friends thats been playing since tekken 3-4.
I am genuinely happy that I am not a "Smasher".
Wait, you TAKE showers??
@@OrenMystery and wash my balls.
I've noticed this too and I 100% agree. I was (and still am) a huge Mortal Kombat fan before I got really into Smash which I have played more of overall in these past few years, and found myself maining Terry when I began playing Ultimate competitively with a Kazuya secondary. Native Smash players tend to suck really badly not just at Smash's FGC's, but at traditional fighters in general, and I think this video does a really good job explaining it.
Not at all. Id rock your shit in any fighting game and street fighter 6 is baby mode compared to smash Ult.
Honestly the biggest difference for me has been footsies
I feel like a good gateway between Smash Bros and traditional fighters is Dragon Ball FighterZ. The command inputs are simple, it’s pretty fast paced and combo centered, but can’t exactly be played like Smash.
We have multiple high level players in SF 6. We genuinely are better lol. There's nothing hard about sf6?
@@TreyMM-qz4wg i think you have the wrong comment or something, never said nothing about SF6. love the game, but i just aint said nothing about it
ehhh, once you start playing at a level where everything is spaced properly on shield or otherwise is safe on shield it becomes just as you described in traditional fighters. Dash backs are powerful yes but I would not really call it anti-airing. You can also anti air the same way by just catching jump-ins pre-emptively in smash with up-b out of shield in a similar way, and heck with ken and ryu themselves even. They are still played very differently and mostly agree with the rest of the points in the video. It works both ways, traditional fighting players usually suck at smash right off the bat. A few very core aspects absolutely exist in both but that is pretty much it, each has all of these nuances to them that need to be learned.
Ive never heard of smashers being bad at traditional fighters, maybe ultimate players because there game is brain dead, but melee players? There freaks of nature, my boi is a long time melee player and no joke he can pick up a game almost immediately. We were playing marvel 2 and like, two days in he was doing msp tod's, he said and i quote "this games kinda slow and easy" to fucking MARVEL 2 lol. Melee is the most complex game ever made.
"Upcoming golden age of fighting games"
Oof...
Gladly I'm bad at both so I wouldn't be worried
This is ACTUALLY what goes through my brain when I see people anti-airing in a fighting game:
If he baits out my anti-air… I’m screwed.
I might be ignorant, but can you punish anti-air moves in FGs? Another fundamental difference that I’ve noticed between the two: in Smash you are REACTING to what your opponent is doing and PUNISHING them. In fighting games, it seems anyway, you are trying to force open your opponent and then never give them a chance to play once you get going.
I think this is also why Smashers bounce off of fighting games so hard. You have to play against someone who is WILDLY above your skill level in Smash before you feel like you didn’t get to play the game. For fighting games, somebody marginally more experienced than you, will make you watch a pair of 30-40 second cutscenes
I would argue it's more the other way around, it could also be from a lack of interest as smash doesnt have prize pools but traditional fighting game players aren't good at smashq
Your opinion is simply incorrect. Real fighting game players would completely destroy smash players with ease if the pro fighting game players actually cared. Smash is what people play when they suck at fighting games. Also they don't just suck turds at real fighting games, they suck at EVERY game.
@silverphoenix684 idk man, the game has been around for 25 years now and not a single traditional FGP has yet to prove how 'easy' smash is by placing really well in anything.
And it seems they're mostly okay with that
@@silverphoenix684every game is a stretch
@@silverphoenix684Wrong. We lterally destroy your baby mode fireball game. Average fireball game player is helpless against the average smash competitor. We run your game in sf6, stride and Tekken. We ave multiple representatives that dog walk your baby mode fireball game. Evo champs in multiple Fgc and strong layers in sf6/Tekken. Fireball game players are dog shit at smash and that is ok. Because we play the more taxing game. We play more pressure, positioning, conditioning, set play, resource management, reading. All of it is trained at once. Baby mode fireball game has zero skill outside of who mashed DRI and fireball games harder than the other. We run your shit. We play faster. We play harder. We play better. Learn your place below us on the hierarchy, trash.
@@silverphoenix684your shit gets ran by furries stfu
Turns out we are not? Lol anti, dabuz, leffen, riddles, coney, void and a lot more. We are better than scrub fighter 6 players thats for sure. Im master with Dhalsim as well. Baby mode DR game
That's because smash players are focused on platforms and zoning.
And there is no life bar and you have to send your enemy out of the stage.
Not at all. You need aggression and positioning before that.
Started off with a clip of him getting shit on by riddles...
My goat
What about riddles?🤨🤨🤨
That’s what I’m sayin lol great comment
If you're talking about his Kaz, then his gameplan is almost identical to his T7 part so he didn't need to learn much to succeed.
Void?@@heckincat1406
@@heckincat1406Dabuz?
@@heckincat1406anti? Lol point is. Smashers convert well to other Fgs. Fgs don't convert well to smash. Street fighter 6 is connect 4 to smash Ult being chess.
good good stuff
This is a question Ive thought a lot about
Also, why dont more Fighting Games experiment? Imagine if Knockdown worked like Smash's in a trad fighter? It would radically chamge gameplay, but it wouldnt be a platform fighter then. I think theres a lot which can be learned from/experimented on in order to make new, more diverse games
Fighting games often focus on a more mechanical single player experience, especially in regard to combos and meter.
Modern controls fix the biggest problem smashers have 😂. Jokes aside, Smash is not really a traditional fighting game, since most of it's mechanics don't translate over to other fighting games. Yeah reads and mindgames, but chess/poker(insert almost anything competitive really) has those too. Most concepts are basically totally different in both games which you pointed out, it's like asking a pro basketball player to do soccer/football, yeah you run in both of them, but that's about where it ends.
Dabuz (sf6 competitor, full master roster) says they translate. So does riddles (sf6 pro) they translate. Much better than vice versa
📝
😂lucky for me I play all kjnds of game and the simple key to adopting to other game is just...
Reset ur brain for each new game and u will be able to grasp it easier than u think.
And that's not even TALKING about the JP players theyd run your shit on their free time
Um, no I'm not?
It’s not that hard to understand why smash players are bad at fighting games. That’s specifically because they don’t practice those games and when people say “oh, you’re a smash player? You wouldn’t last 5 seconds in an actual fighting game” and that’s probably true, specifically because smash doesn’t focus on inputs and isn’t movement restrictive like SF 1-6. It’s just a fun fighting party game with all your favorite characters. Nothing more, nothing less
Real quick, I don’t think aerials are comparable. It’s encouraged in smash to jump, it’s a platform fighter after all. You use aerials in the same way you use pokes in fighting games. Anti air isn’t much of a concept in smash, which is why when people jump in street fighter for example a smash players first thought isn’t “I’m gonna hit this with my anti air.”
Combo game is more rigid as well. It’s not intuitive you have to go to the lab and figure it out. In melee style games you can do a throw and some type of chain of aerials pretty universally. Smash is more comparable to anime fighters if anything, even then though there are various obstacles smash players have to figure out
I used to suck at sf but after i played smash i understood it way more.
Honestly how many traditional fgc players have ever successfully transitioned to smash? I know plenty of top smash players that have transitioned to other fgc games.
Everything you said makes sense but I haven't seen smash players particularly suck at traditional fighting games for any long duration of time, they just don't play them.
Promo>SM
I am good at fighting games bad at smash
Dude you forgot to add the bloody video, it's just pitch black
its good on my end and on my phone, probably just youtube being weird cuz it just uploaded
works for me
@hippo_kazuya it works now for me, sorry i don't know what happened but it was just black for a second
@@hoovybeast0594 no worries 😁 youtube sucks!
@@hippo_kazuya ayoo youtube may be listening haha
Minecraft music lessgo
this not true leffen a prime example
Except for Leffen, he's pretty good
The not being able to adjust your position in the air or dash backward effectively is what really gets me when I try traditional fighters. Just can’t wrap my head around that lack of nuance in the movement.
Just play an anime fighter. Air dashes and double jumps.
Lack of a proper jump button has been an issue for me
I hate tap jump
Play KoF or literally any airdasher
smashers
dude if we are counting these games as fighting games so is fucking naruto storm or whatever that shit is called... like lets be real for a second. termanology is different, the way recovery works is different, oki literally doesnt exist... these are not fighting games they are their own thing which isnt bad but its not a fighting game
but there have been smash players getting results in traditional fgc games, leffen is the most well known but riddles has also gotten some good placements in sf6 and others have too I just don't have the names in my head right now, whereas fgc players have never done anything significant in smash
The thing stopping the most from playing fighting game is the controls feels so bad to use. You’re clunky and slow with not many movement options that feel good cause you only have 8 directions. I also can’t wrap my head around how combos work since I’m used to hitting someone and then hitting them again instead of hitting someone while you’re still hitting someone. It feels very foreign. Regardless of what I feel though, I agree that a lot of stuff does translate cause I can win using similar strategies I have in smash against more experienced people.
It’s the other way around, Riddles got top 8 in 3 SF6 majors recently, can’t name any FGC player that could do that in Smash
There is just very little crossover but if a top player from either group tries the other game seriously then they will probably do well.
@@kye4216it reminds of the fact that the old world has an easier time establishing themselves in the new world than it is for a new worlder to establish themselves in the old world. When was the last time you saw a cherokee or mayan man in germany? You havent cuz they are stuck in their world
Riddles has not placed even top 32 in a tier 1 tournament, what are you talking about
Thank you, smash is still a fighting game and things are not 1 to 1 but their is still so much transferable skills this is just the tip of the iceberg, im so glad smash players are finally merging with the rest of the fgc I hope the same happens for the rest of the platform fighting games
Damn he's actually teaching us babies how to play actual fighting games 👀 This is absolutely amazing bro love it ❤
Smash is like a traditional fighting game, but without like 70% of what makes a traditional fighting game 'traditional'
Cuzzz uhhhhhh games are different
I started out with melee when i was like 7, got soul calibur 2 at like 9, and it snowballed from that point on. TBH I hate how the FGC at large shuns smash and acts like it's a lesser game when it really is the same thing at a fundamental level.
To be fair the FGC has every reason to shun Smash, The Smash community is arrogant and full of shit
😂
Ngl seeing Fundies reminded me of a certain type of religion....
Because they run away and spam lol.
Fireball game community players are a stranded child on a Senegal alien island with cannibal tribes in smash. Meanwhile we run shit with riddles, leffen, dabuz. And coney just proved gow easy tekken is, getting purple in 2 weeks 😂
because....smash is NOT a fighting game? lol...
Bro didn’t even listen to 30 seconds of the video💀
bro smash is just a different sub genre of fighting games💀
It’s not
I think it's more that plat fighters like smash spend 80% of the match in the air, but traditional fighters spend 80% of the time on the ground... Unless you're playing an ArcSys game or sum similar.
Its a platform fighter.....
Which is totally different fundamentals
Smash is not a fighting game and was specifically designed to be antithetical to fighting games; *Sakurai himself has repeatedly said this for over a decade.*
Smash is a *PARTY-GAME* with loosely based fighting mechanics.
It is designed so that people who are *NOT* good at fighting games or children can pick up the game and play.
Smash is *NOT* designed to operate as a fighting game, the characters and stages are *NOT* balanced or designed to pit people in 1v1 matches.
The purpose of items and stage mechanics are to mitigate the clearly unbalanced character designs. Smash was fully intended to be played for fun and with items.
What happened is that adults picked up the game (because of its nastolgic appeal), changed the rules to remove the items and other balancing mechanics and made this "the standard"; which drove out the intended audience.
Smash players are some of the most unskilled gamers in the world and 70% are only good at smash games.
Btw, Sakurai himself has spoken out against the "competitive" smash community because they hurt the game's appeal.
Children and normie adults do not enjoy smash online because of all the people creating lobbies to intentionally troll or disadvantage players.
I am a person who is reasonably good at smash and have been playing since the 64. I basically never play randoms online because trolling is the object of the game and they are rewarded for it.
You got everything wrong. While modern Smash is like the earliest Smash, except more characters and extra stuff, fighting games have turned from co-op friendly past timers to hyper competitive chess games with action. Smash is still the same fun. Acrual fighting games are no more as fun as their classic predecessors were. Modern fighting games are not traditional fighting games. Street Fighter 6 is nothing like classy old SFII. Tekken 7 is nothing like Tekken 2.
Wtf are u talking about... 😅
it is weird that the video is called this way. Speaking from my own experience, mainly smash (melee) players do a better job in modern fighting games than the other way around.
I don't know about modern smash titles. but for ssbm players, maybe it is just the dedication to lab and execution. Maybe it is a bit unfair tho because melee players are playing for 10 years +, the unusual controller, the multiplied amount of defensive options in this game compared to pretty much any modern fighting game, that the game is still played and came out before devs decided to dumb everything down in modern (fighting?) games.
It is a miracle that this game is unkillable