China's 7nm Semiconductor Breakthrough
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- Опубликовано: 13 июн 2024
- Check out Jordan’s Substack here: www.chinatalk.media
And of course, Dylan’s article: www.semianalysis.com/p/china-...
Corrections:
- The MinerVa BTC miner was SMIC N+1, not N+2. Didn't see the TechInsights update
Links:
- The Asianometry Newsletter: www.asianometry.com
- Patreon: / asianometry
- Threads: www.threads.net/@asianometry
- Twitter: / asianometry
Like the CEO of ASML, Peter Wennink said when reacting to American pressure on China : “The rules of physics are the same in China as they are in the US or the Netherlands”.
The rules of physics are same enough that China probably won't be able to go further than 7N without EUV without it being extremely ineffective cost wise.
@@santhoshsridhar5887 It really does not matter
@@santhoshsridhar5887 And when they do, you'l say the exact same thing for the newer version
@@santhoshsridhar5887 next year when SMIC breaks 5nm, you'll come back and say that's their limit and back again @ 3nm.. etc etc technology isn't exclusive, some may hold patents for some but never all.... there're always many routes from A-B
@@santhoshsridhar5887who know china already has EUV prototype
Man.. I remember find this channel back in 2020 when it had 15K subscribers. How far you’ve come along.
Same ! I think he had like a few thousand only
Yeah the channel blew up once they went to the 8nm process 😎
Ya when I caught on was around 200k ish he doubled up in like a year or so
When the mainstream media constantly spout fake news , these types of platforms grow further
When I found the channel it made absolutely no sense. The discrepancy between subs and quality. Few thousand subs and the best content on diverse subjects.
I have a talent for finding great channels early that later blow up. Unlucky I can't invest in them lol.
The drive for EUV was based on economics: with multiple patterning you can make the same chips but at a higher cost.
Qualcomm 8 gen 2 made of 5nm tech is said to be $160 and Kirin 9000s 7nm tech is using this 'higher cost' say it's +50% more than 8Gen2. So, the Kirin phone will be $80 more and most consumer especially the Chinese will have no problem paying $1080 for a $1000 Huawei phone and now it's a "satellite communication device".
@@TheSolidsnake2001
This Huawei Mate Pro 60 have satellite communication mode by installing an subscription App. So you can get internet service in remote areas which is not reached by mobile network.
I just noticed you referenced Jordan Schneider. Wasn't this the clown that's currently being trolled about how China's chip industry is totally dead a year or so ago? He also works in an industry that has an agenda and axe to grind. Not sure I'd be listening to what he had to say.
I hope Asianometry guy isn't a closet-Falungong supporter.
@@peekaboopeekaboo1165 I doubt it at the moment but he should at least perform some background checks. Schneider is clearly biased and almost all his content is ridiculing China and anything they do. If he's not ridiculing, he's attacking. A large amount of his work background revolves around attacking China. In that tweet people are now trolling him with, he was damn near giddy with happiness with how the West is attempting to hobble China's personal development. This is not the actions of someone who is on the level.
@@peekaboopeekaboo1165 I dont think so. He just follows western media which is mostly anti-China because of US which props falun gong stuff and it shows
@@peekaboopeekaboo1165 OK, wumao.
Who would you listen to?
Korea is different from China. Korea gets the US's back up in winning against Japan semiconductor industry.
American has feud on Japan's consumer electronics overwhelmed its market , so it struck back Japan by assisting Korea.
LOL.
You are right.
Right
The US have been playing Japan vs Korea, Taiwan, the Netherlands against each other for the last 40 years. Japanese semiconductor industry is pretty behind the leaders now but the US picked Japan to collaborate on next generation semiconductor instead of Korea and Taiwan
oh it's even worse. The US forced it's Japanese vassal to assist in industrializing Japan's own rival, Korea. And Japan does as it's told, like a good boy. Who's your daddy Japan? That's right. Daddy USA.
What's more it's the US that mandated Japan's economy get stuck at 5T and stagnate for over a decade. it's only now that we have decided to let Japan become our antiChina counter balance that we agreed to let Japan reverse a bit of what was done with the plaza accords and grow beyond 5T. Anything bigger than 5T makes USA nervous.
Very few talked about SMIC hiring away some of the smartest engineers at TSMC, more than 250 of them in fact. So, with the people that know how, they have the breakthrough.
@pwu8194 As someone who has worked for vendors in the chip industry for almost a decade, it amazes me that chip manufacturers simply don't just offer our best guys a half a million a year. Most of the knowledge to repair and troubleshoot equipment is only in a few people's heads.
Why would anyone with any brain want to live under CCP dictatorship and corruption? CCP can lock you up anytime under any pretense. Long live CCP! LOL
@@coldspring22Taiwanese speak mandarin so it’s easy to work in mainland unlike any other country .
@@ScoobieDoo-zy1rhnot to mention a lot of Taiwanese are still pro-china, unlike what the media suggests
@@meegz149
In a oligarch capitalist society, only the top wealthiest continue to get raises see increases in profit while everyone else just has to deal with the consequences of inflation, bubbles, recessions.
Don't like it? Try suggesting that CEOs should get paid less you'll just get ignored and get seen as a "commie". LOL
This video made me re-watch the "can you do 7nm without euv?" video you posted an year ago. It speaks to your in-depthness regarding semiconductors, and i can't overstate how much i respect your hard work and dedication. thank you.
Edit: hey jon. Sorry for this stupid ass argument in the replies to this comment. I have no idea how it started.
no, all he said is NS
@@xinyiquan666he is heavily biased since he is taiwanese dpp supporter but he has some points
There IS no good way to get to the transistor density of the likes of Samsung 7N, Intel 7, or TSMC N7 without EUV. There are only unprofitable ways. This is still the case. SMIC has been able to make something they SAY is equivalent (once again these are names) to the other companies' products they attach a "7" to and they have similar transistor densities, with their LOW DENSITY library, which is also important to understand and he didn't cover I don't think.
There are different types of transistors that can be produced, and you can have the same transistor be in a low density and high density library. The name of the libraries should be self explanatory. If you clock something above a certain speed then the transistor would most likely come from the low density library and clocking something slow means it can be in a high density library. This is all part of the specs of a process node.
It is almost certainly the case that SMIC can make something about the same as the other companies' low density library set for what they call their 7nm node, but they would have to use it for slower clock speed use cases, like a smart phone where clock speeds are much slower than a desktop or laptop computer with desktop being faster. You could also use it for AI training and many other use cases where you don't need the speed of a data server or desktop computer.
Since Huawei is controlled by the CCP regardless of their lies (this phone launched without any warning, on the day the U.S. Secretary of Commerce arrived and was advertised on THAT day mostly with CCP members and one or two celebrities that use Apple phones, kind of laughable really), the CCP will subsidize it so even though it's not profitable to make a 7nm node without EUV using the same techniques ICs have been made for a few decades now, it will be made to look like they've done something great.
But this has been the CCP's operating procedure for about 15 years now and has led to many noticeable failures. Make it look like they can do something great but the quality is always sub par.
@@johndoh5182 another pile of NS, all you said is about US companies, not huawei, there are only 3 companies in this world can do 7nm chip, TSMC, samsung and chinse SMIC, no others, US can not even do 48nm , let alone 7nm , all advanced chips in US are bought from taiwan, also samsung chips are taiwanese technology, their 5nm is only equal to 7nm , so far, only taiwan can make most advanced chip, followed by china
@@johndoh5182傻比
LMAO Jordan Schneider. You mean the guy that said every single Chinese American researcher in the Chinese semiconductor industry resigned, annihilating it overnight? Mate, you sure you're credible?
quote: "This is what annihilation looks like: China’s semiconductor manufacturing industry was reduced to zero overnight. Complete collapse. No chance of survival."
@@webboy998 My guy was high on his own supply.
The entire US elite is high on it's own supply at this point. What started out as narrative that was meant for public consumption, for the plebs has become ingested by the very elite. This is called a snake eating it's own tail and it's how you get a dark age. The US is in the early, emergent stages of a new dark age. Take that to the bank. Generations of cynical opportunism has birthed new generations of actual true believer nutjob. That's how this works. The elite is high on their own supply of made for public consumption lies. @@bockcui5740
yes im sure he's credible, jordan is a 50/50
What a clown 🤡
Highly recommend reading the SCMP article: *"China's imports of Dutch chip-making equipment surged tenfold in November after Washington tightened restrictions"*
"Big breakthroughs happen when what is suddenly possible meets what is desperately needed."
-- Thomas Friedman
They didn't have a breakthrough and this is pure propaganda. It won't be known about until the phone is dissected. We don't know who made the chips. The Chinese GOVT. announced this phone when the US secretary of state was there. HUAWEI DIDN'T announce it before it launched.
Huawei has NEVER made anything original. They've stolen everything from Samsung or Apple or CISCO or Google or a handful of other companies.
IF by chance a fab in China made these chips, very unlikely regardless of who says what, they made it using old tech. But it was already KNOWN one Chinese fab can do this. What they CAN'T do is make 7nm with a low defect rate, so it would typically be restricted to military applications because it won't be profitable to sell, but since the Chinese govt. is behind Huawei they'll subsidize it.
China is the largest propaganda machine in the world.
@@thelastofthehitachi972we're talking about semiconductors here lil bro
@@thelastofthehitachi972you know you are sick af when u bring non relevant topic here
@@Ilovecruiseah who cares about the sick af genocide of the Uyghers as long as I have my shiny new phone.
@@thelastofthehitachi972
There's more freedom and human rights under CCP than under your crazy "democratic" mafia "government".
Fabulous coverage, so respectably balanced. Appreciate your work.
So hard to see truth out there. Everything is propaganda
I just like that he doesn't say WAHwei. Is it that hard to start a word with an H
I have actually been to china several times. And purchasing some of the electronics, sadly to say they are inferior. I kid you not. You are all free to go to Guangzhou, Shenzhen to their computer districts and buy products for yourself. As for this new china made phone, from South korean news, it is a copy of South Korean computer chips. How this china chip and phone will last compared to other nation's phones, only time will tell. Other china chip companies like Oppo failed, ZTE failed as well. So again, only time will tell is this new chip coped from 'South Korea will be a good product or not.
@@jeffjohnson5053 you know iPhone is made in China... also Xiaomi.
@johnsmith-cw3wo they don't design any of it.
I suppose the main question here is whether Huawei's chiplet tech is able to produce results such that the lack of EUV ceases to become an insurmountable problem. I don't know how the physics will work out, but their engineers are clever, their motivation to bypass sanctions strong, and the resources they have to invest virtually unlimited. If the laws of physics allow for it, they're going to get results.
Honestly, I wonder if the prohibitive cost (300 million US per machine) makes EUV all it's cracked up to be.
I love the style and content. Did you ever contemplate having also a regular podcast with interviews?
I read news back then they say it takes 5 years to catch up 7nm, well it's just arround 3 years now.
I hope this will be a good competitor.
China will never let you feel disapointed as a competitor
Harvard Business review: "China cannot innovate"? Thank-you for clarifying my understanding of the Kirin 9000s. I always understood that one could produce a 7nm chip using DUV a process which I thought that TSMC had developed. But I thought that this process was not cost effective. Kudos to SMIC for making it economically feasible for their latest phone. .But this depends on DUV which, after 1/1/2024 will no longer be available per ASML. I suppose China will have to either manufacture their own DUV lithography or another process to come up with high performance chips. As it has said been before, "mother is the necessity of invention."
"innovate" meaning they mostly designed the chips inside and out, I've heard no one answer this question. Of course they can copy well, design most of the chip inside to out? .... nnnnn
Did anyone verify that these chips are being produced at a profit to smic? No? Then why are you presuming they can make a profit? I think it's unlikely that they are making money now. That doesn't mean they won't find a way, but it also doesn't guarantee that this process will ever be profitable.
@@edfhobbies556 China understands that they need to develop indigenous technology. Simply copying (as the Soviets did) or rebadging (as Russia is doing) leaves one vulnerable; developing the tech oneself is critical for tech independence even if that means taking rather longer to get to a similar level of technology.
TSMC is using DUV on their N6 node. TSMC N7 and N7P were DUV while N7+ was EUV. It’s EUV that’s not very cost effective, so if you can make a node function well without it then you don’t want to use it. EUV becomes mandatory on 5nm class nodes and smaller.
@@briancase6180in many ways for this tech i dont think china cares if it is ever profitable.
It’s a mature SMIC N+2 node with performance at least on par with Snapdragon 888 (Samsung 5nm) and the original Kirin 9000 (TSMC 5 nm) with GPU function appears locked on AnTuTu. I would have guessed using DUV SAQD but there are rumors they benefited from some early EUV elements. China has close to 100 1980Dxi’s with a domesticated part supply. Another rumor is SMEE will deliver its own DUV machine by year end that is equivalent to the 2000Di. The yield on the Kirin 9000s is now thought to be at least 80% if not 90% - if you FIB enough of them you can get statistics on CD and overlay. You need to adjust your timeline for “China speed”.
N+2 is just what they want you to believe, something they hide behind. A crude EUV is far better than N+2, which is likely what is really used.
My neighbour owns an orchard, and sells me apples. One day he tells me that he won't sell them to me anymore, because I've made a successful business selling apple pies that are better than his. I then go and take the seeds from the apples, and grow my own orchard. My neighbour then throws a tantrum and accuses be of stealing his apple seeds. He then refuses to sells me his strawberries...
You do sound like a Chinese thief. If your neighbor’s Apple seed was patented or had a contract restricting your use of his seeds then your neighbor has rights, thieves don’t care about patents or contracts. But in Huawei’s case, even your apple pie used his recipe and his packaging. So your neighbor was kind to you for not suing you to stop selling his apple pie recipes. Only reason your neighbor doesn’t sue you in China is because Chinese judges like stealing technologies from other country and dismiss all IP theft cases against Chinese.
I do understand it is hard to conceptualize what IP theft is coming from third world country with Bronze Age technology, but being stubborn about theft was taught to be unwise and punishable act by a confused sage 2500 years ago. Just because Chinese government says IP theft from foreign country is patriotic acts doesn’t make it so.
A cutting-edge 200 million dollar lithography machine isn't the same as some apple seeds. Also China's orchard seems to have flooding issues lately.
Growing an apple tree from a seed can take 20 years before you get apples.. this makes no sense
@@ascra1693 Allegory isn't to be taken absolutely literally - it is an illustration.
Hahaha, Is this a real story?
We've had many issues with the OpenGL drivers on the Mate. They used the desktop reference drivers so it reports the wrong values. It has 16 texture units but reports 256... etc.
People don't understand the real breakthrough is the possible supply chain independence China gains from that. And how fast gaps can close.
China is freeing themselves from U.S and this is amazing I wish Brazil do the same thing but we are far behind
As always, amazing information for us mortals. I work at the gas plants that supply the chip plants. Amazing to be involed in anyway I can.
I guess: SoxalAir Liquid or...?
God's honest work, it is.
Linde?
ChatGPT, Bard, OpenAI or any others can give you better non-biased information than Asianometry. The information here are easy to understand but stained with slight CCP propaganda.
Asianometry make it seems like evil America is controlling all corporations to punish hardworking China, but Japan, South Korea, Netherlands, England, Australia, France, Germany are all agreeing with America on China policy. That is why ASML, SK Hynix, Lam, SVG, Google, etc can not do business with China on some strategic equipments and materials. Australia reported another spying scheme by Huawei last month. Most technology journalists don’t report these because of CCP retaliation. Even Google doesn’t allow anti China RUclipsrs to be monetized in many democratic countries due to CCP retaliation to their countries.
Speaking of LAM, I would love to see a video on them (I work on LAM equipment). There history, achievements and so on. Great video as always, keep up the good work.
You could do a history of novellus before LAM bought them out
I prefer KLA
lam always poached all the guys from my friend's/our dept's plasma lab back when i was in grad school. They definitely have direct picks from most of the us's research labs and fund like half of their plasma research efforts
Thank you for the balanced analysis.
Was just waiting to hear your thoughs on this topic... 👍🏾
Thanks, I was looking forward to your analysis on this. I knew a lot of it, did find out a few things I didn't know before too. So glad to see that my own internal analysis agreed with yours.
This almost feels like a direct message to the government imploring them to take action
I had a Huawei phone 5 years ago and it was absolutely amazing for 200 dollars and i still miss many of its features going back to Samsung.
Do you also miss being spied on?
I had a 200 dollar Huawei and it was horrible. The screen died very fast and the battery lost its charge relatively quick. My brother's phone did the same. Now we are using Samsung again and we are happy with them.
@Sniperboy5551 now I get spied on by the NSA instead what's the difference?
@Sniperboy5551 worth it for how good the camera was really lol
@@Sniperboy5551you're being spied on no matter who produces the communication device. Remember that whole Edward Snowden document leak thing? It doesn't matter what country you're in - American tech is spying on you.
It’s no secret that China is almost done building their EUV.
If China Can really make a 7nm chips.
They can supply 99 % of the chips market by themselves.
Limited amount of lithography machines, so no, they can't do it all. But then yes - except supercomputers, phones and cloud servers, desktop workstation, top gaming machines everything else is in their reach. As soon as they develop their own tools so they need not to import them for scaling up.
And they do control output for most chips. Consumer doesn't care if his toy uses Chinese chip or Korean one, or Japanese, or American - consumer is barely aware that there are chips in products he buys - toys, fridges, washing machines, car sensors, abs controllers, light controllers, headphones, bluetooth speakers... millions and millions of stuff. They produce it, they decide what they will put inside.
@@adaslesniak SMEE makes SMIC's DUV machines, they don't even depend on ASML anymore for lithography machines. So the amount of lithography machines will be meaningless soon since SMEE is funded by the Chinese government to produce as many machines as they can the soonest possible.
They will. Its a matter of time unless ang mohs wanna do gunboat diplomacy again. A repeat of what happen in 1848. Perhaps history will repeat again as ang mohs are the chosen one
Once they take control of the fabs on Formosa then they can make anything they want. Until the US bombs the fabs.. LOL
soon they will make 28nm with 100% chinese machines. - no need for ASML and other equipment.
TechInsights, an Ottawa-based information platform on the semiconductor industry, said in a report that it had analyzed the new phone and found evidence of a made-in-China design and the use of a 7-nanometer technology that is a milestone for the Chinese chip industry.
that's faster then we expected!
Damn my 2020 Xbox has a 7nnm CPU.😂
Boy this reads like a bot comment
Free Tibet, free Hong Kong, free Uigher
@@anglohan5428 those has nothing to do with tech.
Thanks for your videos, man. They are well-researched pieces which tell complex and detailed stories in an accessible way, and I don't see another channel in this field maintaining this balance of depth, detail and accessibility. It's criminal that the algorithm hasn't sent them stratospheric yet, but it's surely only a matter of time.
Nah. The intelligent audience he targets is pretty small. He is getting 90% of the views he can get from RUclips. Some of his videos were a hit. But that audience didn't stay to watch his other videos. average views on his videos are pretty constant. That probably means they all are repeated dedicated viewers like us.
GenZ kids with low attention span, can't really watch a PowerPoint lecture these days. Write a comment longer than 2 sentences and they'll start to roll their eyes. :p
@@Dr.Kraig_Ren You are pretty accurate about the Gen Z kids🤣🤣🤣
@@Dr.Kraig_Ren The reaction to Perun's videos gives me hope though
Awesome content. Very informative 👍
Excellent Work! Thank you!
By far the most comprehensive,unbiased journalism. Not picking any sides just pure hard facts. Keep up your good work. Been your avid subscribers for years. Always the best documentary coverage
There is no such thing as unbiased journalism, all journalism has a side, even if it doesn't seem like it
@@araujofi factual reporting. Shares both sides of personal comment. No defamation. You will notice the difference in experience watching news and pure documentary. One brews sensation. The later reports what happens.
Putting American sanctions as something "hmm, that's just a detail" is literally choosing a side... like I said, everyone chooses a side, even if the person doesn't know, it's always subtle. Just as HSJ made a playlist of videos like "the trade war between China and the US", it's completely documentary and factual? yes, but they put up narratives as if China wanted a war or that the US didn't start with the sanctions and trying to boycott them. This is choosing a side, the narrative hides this.@@SiroccoSeven
@@SiroccoSeven may be factual but with inaccurate fact.
well, you've got to give him the benefit of a doubt@@tweedy4sg
I wonder what software they used to design the semiconductor. And did someone said it's an ARM based processor? I thought that was licensed .
RISC-V
Yeah Huawei wrote their own EDA software for this too. And ARM is licensed by ARM-China, which is legally forbidden on creation to have any American shareholders.
Huawei subsidiary SMIC apparently already has the ability to design its own chips
SMIC is not a Huawei subsidiary@@saahan-nn1fe
@@botdcypher HiSilicon, who manufactures tells it's ARM v8.2A based. Huawei used Synopsys.
Using RISC V ( Open Platform ) would involved a total redesign of the operating system and all the libraries. Therefore Huawei has to give the code to the public, and they are not very "Open" about it.
Fun fact, the picture that you showed at 09:48 is the front gate of SMIC fab1 and fab8 and you can see the northeast hall on the left, which is not allowed to enter for lower league employees, any engineer does that gets a HL.
HL? Half life?
@@yensteelhand-lick
@@yensteel Highlights. If you get enough of these, your expected career life will be reduced by half
@@applesb3507 It is Half Life then, for thier career.
I would be very surprised if EUV gets to the point where it can obviate the need for 193i litho on current and future nodes. The best way that EUV is being used currently is to reduce the number of masks needed in the densest, most complex patterns. Intel detailed that use in their VLSI paper on Intel 4, where they noted that without EUV, Intel 4 would have required ~30% more masks than Intel 7. However with EUV, it requires ~20% fewer masks than Intel 7. So at Intel 4, that's a 50% mask count savings by using EUV.
Of course, the limiting factor is the power of the EUV laser, and while ASML is working hard to increase the power of the laser, as you've covered in previous videos, but I still have my doubts regarding how much they'll be able to increase the power of the laser given how intricate their process of shooting a tin droplets 50000 times per second is. And with EUV, it seems to always be a trade-off between stochastic defects and throughput. Increase the exposure time and you'll decrease the stochastic defects, but your throughput will tank. Or do the opposite. Even as the EUV source increases in power, between the potential for increased mirror count (with the current count of 11, ~98% of the EUV light is absorbed before it even hits the wafer...) and the potential for a required increase in dose due to future nodes requiring tighter features, I can imagine a future where throughput barely (if ever) increases due to all the factors working against it.
That said, I have very little knowledge depth in the field overall, so maybe there are big changes in the works to increase uptime, increase power, and increase reflection or the like to dramatically increase throughput.
Mirror design is probably already limited by the laws of physics. It was brought once on the channel, a free electron laser generating EUV might be the next big thing (or maybe not)
this the shit niggas saying in the youtube comment sections followed by "I have little knowledge depth in the field"
No other platform is on the same level.
Excellent information! I like your disclaimers at the beginning. Thanks!
Very interesting! From your previous videos, we know it's possible to use multimasking techniques for DUV lithography to get to these nodes. So SMIC has brute force the process then. And it seems they still have the license to use the software for silicon layout. But they are then restricted to the current Arm cores and cannot get the latest core architecture. Question is performance wise, can they keep up even if they can go down to 5nm.
only time will tell. I am betting on their innovation. When the world is against you, you can only go up
You can brute force a lot of things. We still don’t know what their yield or cost is. I expect it’s pretty poor. Not particularly problematic for SMIC, they can just dip into public money to make up for it until those things improve.
@@Grak70 And what do you think they will be stuck with the tools they have forever? It is only matter of time they produce their own DUV and EUV. Then what? Even more sanctions?
@@ZxZ239 I never said any such thing. Stop being so defensive.
@@ZxZ239 Its not a matter of time if they have only there own market to sell into.
Well said. Your audio sounded echoed initially, got better later.
thank you for your objective point of view
Huawei has too many 5G patents, same as Qualcomm, and most, if not all, of those are in the FRAND pool. The USoA can not prohibit Huawei to use Qualcomm's patents, lest China prohibits Qualcomm to use Huawei's patents. Tghe one that comes to mind is the patent for FEC on the control channels of 5G. The tech was developed by an Israeli company that Huawei acquired... Globalization at work ;-)
Actually, there are exceptions in the sanctions "precisely" for this (licensing patents under FRAND). And also, there are exceptions in the patents for american companies working with Huawei in standards bodies, like the ISO, ITU-T, ITU-R, 3GPP, IEEE, IAB and IETF, among others.
A lot of americans huffing copium in the comments.
Really? I haven't seen any, unless you mean the ones calling the claims false and CCP propaganda.
What a straw man BS comment.
I’m American and not huffing copium. Taiwan is the leader in semiconductor fabrication and both mainland China and Taiwanese are the same people. China was always capable of doing this, it’d be foolish to think otherwise. I don’t think this changes much though.
The CCP leadership has made an enemy of the rest of the world. This just kicks off an arms race. You don’t think Taiwan is going to work with more urgency now? The path of mainland China is set, it’s in decline already whether or not they can make chips that are 6 years behind.
@@delavan9141yes, those are the copium claims.
Americans should treat this as another Sputnik moment. Competition from the Communist Party of China is healthy for the Free World. The CCP is doing what any rational actor would do. I don’t fault them at all for their technology theft and innovations.
This advancement helps us realize why we value our freedoms and must invest in innovation or die at the hands of the Communist Party of China. Sanctions are a delaying tactic at best and motivate your competitors/enemies at worst. If a technology is useful enough it eventually leaks out. History is full of examples. This event should force the Free World to innovate beyond this current technology paradigm. What is the next paradigm? We went from vacuum tubes to the integrated circuit during the Cold War. What technology will this new Cold War 2.0 produce? Exciting times. Game on!
what a no nonsense, straight talk channel! 👍👍👍👍👍
Forgive me the ignorance, but using DUV does not intail that you have to use double patterning at every step and thus having your chips taking longer and being way more expensive? Or is the higher yield enough to compensate for it?
It's definitely pros and cons with DUV and EUV. Double patterning for DUV. Then the EUV machines is very expensive and probably also very expensive to run. The EUV will probably win out the smaller the process gets.
So smaller cheaper and slower machines or bigger more expensive and faster machines.
@@dalangwudalang2596 Last I checked (today) all Chinese fabs are still using ASML units. Not only that, what you say makes no sense: you cannot scale up a litography machine and still print the same wafers.
@@yoshyoka What the guy is saying is China has cracked the EUV light source issue. Rather than irradiating tin droplets with high-energy CO2-laser to generate EUV light, the chinese are using a synchrotron to generate the co-laminar EUV light. They intend to build a facility that runs multiple lithography machines (hence factory) using the EUV light generated by a 0.5km to 1km snchroton (hence giant).
@@nickl5658 Well, no, that is not what he is saying at all, at least, it was not mentioned anywhere in the video.
While everyone has covered this, it was your video I've been waiting for. Thank you.
Come back and do a follow up when you have more information.
7:00 I think your past video mentioned about Japan is the only supplier of silicon wafers for advance nodes chip manufacturing ?
Discovered you a while back and figured I would let you know how amazing your channel is! You have a great insight!🎉
You said in South Korean vedio, the amount of equipment import(over 80%) and patent deal that they made while doing catch up to Japan. How big of a problem that part would be for China. And there is some, how much a delay lack of equipment import might cause??
I suspect the equipment that goes into chinese semiconductors other than the lithography machines themselves is alot easier to substitute
Not much i think...China Does have capacity to create its homemade things and like he said it will just be matter of weeks beofre usa impose another sanctions and china develops another way tonit😂😂😂
How ridiculous is it that China has to make every single part of the phone themselves?
It is also absurd that the United States banned TSMC from making chips for Huawei
😂When you reach the critical point, you will find that you are omnipotent and no one can stop you from doing anything
You should be curious about why US always gets so much hysteria on China's tech progression.
Late December 2023 information finally have proven that SMIC were able to stockpile EUV machines from ASML before the sanctions went into effect and that Huawei received intellectual property know-how through multiple subsidiaries incorporated in the USA that receive US know-how.
great information! 👍 Thanks!!
On Oct 14 2022 Jordan Schneider said: "This is what annihilation looks like: China’s semiconductor manufacturing industry was reduced to zero overnight. Complete collapse. No chance of survival."
Asianometry: 'Thanks Jordan for your thoughts'.
Free Tibet, free Hong Kong, free Uigher
@@anglohan5428 Indeed, Tibet, Hong Kong and Xinjiang are free. You are correct! :)
@@anglohan5428 Free Yourself - stop torturing yourself
@@anglohan5428Free Puerto Rico, Free Hawaii, Free Guam
@@catonpillow No they are not free from Chinese occupation
Love your amazing videos. They’re like an entire lecture on chips and history combined
I met with Huawei at GITEX a few weeks ago, and they're now touting they have their own NAND flash and DRAM chips and controllers, no longer being sanctionable. Any news on this?
Why no details about the chips performance vs the 5nm chip on the old phones or vs other 7nm phone chips?
Really didn't see this coming...
I remembered you talked about 7nm does not have to use the EUV in the past. However, for 5nm or lower, are the EUV must have? If China can not have EVU from ASML then can they still achieve 5nm or lower? any thoughts? Thanks.
DUV can produce 5nm with a little wiggle room. Probably 4.5nm. They should be able to have a 5nm node within the next two years.
@@OccultDemonCassette DUV already can produce 2nm GAA transistors in lab setting. Being able to produce doesn't mean it can manufacture efficiently, especially the yield go down and numbers of masks it requires can go up quickly.
@@zombielinkinpark true. We'll just have to see what they can manage to pull off with it.
even if they don't have EUV, then there is 1000% chance they already have thousands of engineers working on it as we speak.
@@zombielinkinparkHuawei cooperated with SMIC and a couple of state-owned research institutes, universities as well as Chinese companies is developing next generation VGAAFET process. It is believed they can make it within 1-3 years.
Your a great host, respectful and intelligent as well, thank you. your friend in time, Skud
What about sub-1v semi conductor technology? Is it advancing?
The 7nM refers to the smallest feature size or trace size.
no, in finfet era this nm represents none of that
It’s probably an Imagination derived gpu. I also don’t understand why this is a surprise. What might be surprising is if they are using newer arm ip.
The real surprise will come from china's homegrown risc-v ISA, OpenXiangshan. Probably the last generation of huawei phones with any arm IP at all.
@@Guywith2usernames That's not really homegrown when someone else came up with the base IP. And the software isn't fully fleshed out yet. It's getting there bit by bit they add more to the Linux kernel.
Excellent analysis
Thank you so much for this gifts (videos)
China has such a strong electronics industry, it will be interesting to see how far they can go "in-house". Perhaps exports out of China would be challenged by trade barriers and intellectual property challenges.
Regardless, international tech businesses may lose their share in the Chinese market. You can bet the chip, equipment, and consumer goods companies around the world are in some level of panic.
I hope this all sorts itself out and everyone wins.
LOL China hasn't made any chip breakthroughs (they steal others' intellectual property as they do in every other field) and is currently 5 years behind. They aren't making 7nm chips.
I bet we can see a redefinition of "international" in near future.
Keeping markets reasonably open, instead of closing them histerically, might do the trick.
I think it will become increasingly more and more difficult for the U.S. to justify its racist sanctions because we tolerated their "national defense" angle because okay whatever, but if they keep trying to block China outside their own country after China has proven that they can and will overcome U.S. sanctions, it becomes undeniable that the U.S. just doesn't want China to succeed which becomes morally untenable for anyone with a conscience to justify.
Like how is the U.S. going to justify blocking other countries from buying SMIC products for example? They can't because it's stupid and I hope countries justifiable laugh in their faces.
The US doesn't want everyone to win, they just want China to lose and they win (scrap national security, it's big corp lobbying), at the cost of loss to everyone else.
I "remind you" Huawei has a large 5G patent portfolio and the largest 6GG patent portfolio, and Qualcomm would like to sell their leading edge SOCs fabricated at TSMC Taiwan but US restriction prohibit that, so they won't be suing Huawei in any case.
Very interesting topic!
The Kitty 9000S sure seems to purr quite nicely!...
The most annoying thing about the chip dilemma China is going through is why haven't they copied the VSLI project or Sematech? We know Huawei, SMEE etc. Are working on chip technology but atleast from what is publicly known there doesn't seem to be much cooperation between these tech companies. Kinda looks like an "every man for himself" situation within the chip pipeline in China.
More like it kinda looks like they understand operational security when fighting a tech war, whereas Americans don't.
@@vlhc4642 Chinese copy everything the West makes but much more poorer made. 🇨🇳
@@vlhc4642 it stifles innovation tho, even if it improves security
@@anglohan5428 huh?
@@_Chad_ThunderCock close down Wuhan CCP bio labs 🇨🇳
Here we go. I was ignoring the headlines, waiting for this.
If 7 nm, 5 nm and other apparently size specific data does not depict half the length of gate separation (broadly indicating size of transistors) then how does this marketing terminology come into play. Does it adhere to some level of size?
It's the best feature-resolution, the smallest item-dimension that can be consistently produced on the chip
Aside from not knowing the yield, not knowing the cost is just as important. MP lithography for layers that should use EUV is stupidly expensive.
Thanks for your unbiased review of China's new 7nm chip. Aside from Bloomberg, Nikkei, and CNA, there hasn't been much coverage of it outside China and Taiwan. It feels weird for a supposedly breakthrough achievement.
That's how you know it's 100% legit. That and all the lower channel Sinophobes are saying it's garbage PLUS mainstream media not covering it. Once it hits both of these criteria, you know the report is accurate.
Well there's one thing we're now certain of, the chip was made using imported tech.
This was a very good show of force to the Americans. In showing that despite all the sanctions, money talks. They were still able to find ways around getting the machines and buying productions.
@@vueport99 Like the Grand Canyon, good things always take time. In a little bit, China will be fully domestically produced. A bit after that, 2nm. A bit further and...
@@vueport99sanctions are ineffective? Wow, who could've guessed...
it’s not that big of a deal. They are years behind and they can’t produce EUV machines and even if they make them ASML is decades ahead of them since they will already start shipping high-NA machines
Thank you for the video, excellent work, as usual. ❤
Why does he say "we" when speaking of advances that benefit the Chinese Communist Party?
Because he is secretly a CCP member? Is that what you want to hear? Or maybe he is just anti-American, anti-hegemony, anti-bullying? @@hg2.
at micron boise in the early 90s we repurposed epoxy die attach machines to be eutectic bond machines, lots of changes but old machines proved reliable and cheap
Loved my Huawei P20 pro, it kept up with the competition for over 5 years. Never got slower, battery life stayed good and camera was amazing. I would've stayed with Huawei if they still had Google. For now I have switched to Samsung S23 Ultra, which is impressive.
I hope one day Huawei can have android on their phones again. They are good phones, it's just almost unusable outside of China with their own system at the moment.
@@KuangTu They still have android, just their own flavor of it based on the android open source project, where they cant include google services due to sanctions, though there are workarounds for this if you really want to.
@@mactep1 Thanks for the info. It's just very inconvenient or difficult for less tech savvy consumer to go through to get the phone with the google services they need.
I stopped buying Chinese brands for geopolitical reasons.
Are there Chinese parts in other phones? Sure.
Unfortunately it's not only Google, some China only phones also can't handle security systems for banking and /or can't play western streaming services like Netflix in full resolution iv heard in case of actual Huawei phones. At least unusable if you want more than taking good pictures and do some random calls.
Jordan Schneider tweeted on Oct 14 2022 "This is what annihilation looks like: China’s semiconductor manufacturing industry was reduced to zero overnight. Complete collapse. No chance of survival." LMAO
He's a total clown 🤡😅
Fancy meeting you here Sultan Carl Zhah🤣
Oh look, a CCP propaganda 🐕on a platform banned in Mainland China by his own employers.
The "P" cores are custom as well, not just the gpu. They are repurposed server cpu cores designed by huawei with smt enabled
You mean like the P cores from Intel CPUs? I mean months ago they said they made a new CPU. It was an Intel CPU where lasers erased the markings and new markings added.
Huawei has never designed anything, they've copied everything. They're the worst offender of IP theft of ANY company in electronics EVER.
@@johndoh5182u r what it’s exhibit A of cries for dying American empire and the dying Anglo Saxon race.
Rest assure, the future is a world without west in it
@@aa-hb3tg Aww found the chinshill fellas.
@@johndoh5182 To be specific, the Chinese Powerstar CPUs are rebadged Intel Comet Lake chips. I believe there was also a Russian company that released Intel CPUs remarked to appear domestically-produced.
@@alexhajnal107 If they use Intel IP core , they surely have an IP license allowed. Because Intel still has business in China. There are Taiwan business that has its own X86 licenses from taken over the US X86 defuncted company , and they corporate with China in making their own X86 chip.
There's also the subsidiaries too to consider that design promate 60 chip I believe
Great vid thanks
It's going to be interesting moving forward. The EUV wall will always exist, unless they find a way to make a brand new way of making sub 5 or 7nm chips with a completely new type of machine. Either that or they might decide 5nm is good enough and go for a potential paradigm shift in the same way China did with electric cars.
I think the surprise was mainly from the mainstream press. The people whose interest extends beyond the front page of Bloomberg knew about this already.
If you neatly scrutinize the EUV machine , you'll find it has far less set on lenses in the proless than DUV. Only some critical parts have to be broken in. So it is not so hard or so easy to build in near future.
China just makes its own EUV lithography machine. What connections is your brain failing to make here?
“Will always exist” yeah give it a few years
What "paradigm shift?" You mean the one that features spontaneous combustion?
Huawei had filed an EUV patent last year.
I think the main different between EUV and DUV is the light source. Using DUV source light for smaller node resulting in low yield rate due to something with the light. But if you read Huawei EUV patent, they actually hacked how the source light works. So it can be used at smaller node with high yield rate.
You can search Huawei EUV Patent.
The last huawei phone consist of less than 30% of home made part and 0 control over its OS… but now it’s 90% and they own their OS in 3 years… wonder which smart aleck help to push them
necessity, motivation and culture?
A lot of copy-paste was used
That is basically the definition of mass production? I suggest you all look into technological developments, 50, 100, 500, 1000, 2000 and 5000 years ago. This is just another cycle, cycle yes.
Didn't Arm terminate the license agreement between Huawei and Hisilicon?
What's the image at 11:03 showing? Clearly they are FinFETs using the classic gate on 3 sides of the fins, which of course is pumping current through the channel via 6 fins (with all the usual benefits of surface area, electrostatic control and other characteristics), but where are the interconnects? Oh, I think I just answered my own question. That surface the gates are sitting on is actually NOT the wafer surface (i.e. not a semiconducting layer), it's actually an insulation layer (whether dioxide, PSG, or whatever), which means the interconnects are buried/hidden underneath that insulation layer, which is why the interconnects are not visible? LOL, yeah I think that's the answer to my own question ... about how the FETs were powered.
I have a video idea: How does TSMC predict when their new nodes will be ready? It seems to me like an insane accuracy for something that is this complex. How correct are they usually?
They dont predict they announce
@@JameBlack But still, two years ahead?
Forecasting based on how the development is going and comparisons to previous process histories. I mean, they don't always get it right: 3N was too late to be used for the apple A16.
India is already working on making 1 picometer chips for the world. Now! that's marvelous.
you might be on to somthing there , because they might be even lying to us the nanometres all along, they might be just overclocking chips. i wonder how they predict too.
Huawei designed both cpu Cores and GPU cores for this phone. Later down the líne they could license the GPUs for chinese graphics cards
Probably won't impact the gaming market, but they can definitely use em for AI. I'm assuming that's what you had in mind here as the US would just ban the import of those if they were a threat to current companies.
bye bye Nivada.
Nah, most likely licensed the IP from PowerVR, like Innosilicon and MooreThreads did with their "Chinese Graphics Cards" a while ago.
Still, no small feat from Huawei to get that iGPU stack working.
@@williamyfAs far as we know, this particular GPU was designed by Huawei
@@diegoantoniorosariopalomin9979 tranquilo papaaá, tan solo deja que pase un tiempito y veras... fuerte a puya a que ese GPU es, bien sea PowerVR, o una variacion de Mali pichada con esterioides por parte de Huawei....
4:31 Are repetitive structures easier to manufacture? What makes it easier?
Love your bit at 13:21 South Korean catching up to Japan and eventually decimating them at their own industry.
And history will repeat itself if the rabbit becomes too lazy, the turtle catches up eventually.
Why western world thinks science works differently in China is beyond me, with how much China has been throwing into R&D for the past decades, I am not surprised they have caught up and also forged ahead in certain sectors.
It's policy wonks that don't understand how technology works.
Mater artium necessitas
Necessity is the mother of invention
需要乃發明之母
I’ve been waiting for this video.
So one month later and the reports indicated that this chip likely isn’t even 7nm. It’s older and overclocked to appear faster. Total junk, just like we all knew it would be. Shocker!
6 months later and this phone went nowhere. It likely never really existed as a product. Everything is fake in communist China.
Thank you.
Very informative video. 👍👍👍👍👍
When even Asianometry acknowledges that mainland China has a breakthrough, you had better believe it does.
Edit: I am from mainland China and was not fully convinced until this video...
Must have been painful! 😂
Wondering if this would signal to the US that their tech sanctions against China would go hardcore mode..
Its CCP CCCP alliance propaganda, they either stole the technology, put a 7nm sticker on 14 nm or it doesn't exist.
@@traderboi2662 I do not agree. I think Asianometry has been quite fair about China's progress
@@Jake-om9no
Asianometry guy is a Nip-phile .
I was waiting for this video 😅
Great work as usual, thanks!
Nice to see your sub's growing; much deserved.
The most obvious form of western propaganda I've seen on RUclips are those "china insider" videos. I like that you are dipping into current events, it gives me a better perspective from someone that has a history of being generally trustworthy/nonbias. Don't let the haters get to you.
Western propaganda?! They are literally Chinese people in exile.
Mr. Jordan is absolutely wrong and a bigger surprise than the Kirin SOC is in store.
EUV low rate production trial in 2024 is what I heard from sdf
@@livedem0 what is sdf?
@@elchippe some dumb fella
@@livedem0Prototype by 2024, not production
At least new Huawei phone can breath new air in the stagnet phone market, we haven't seen any real innovation for last 4 years.
so that thing on the thumbnail is not an iPod
The insidiousness of thinking NO ONE can do it without you or that they need your permission to do something. Trying to block others from succeeding and then getting shocked when, against all odds, they succeed on their own, without any need of your help and in fact, despite your best efforts to make them fail…
That in every day life we call a HATER!