BMW Airhead top end noise after refresh - follow up
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 14 апр 2022
- Today we are looking into some top end noise that wasn't fixed during my recent top end refresh/ reseal.
Maybe you find this way of diagnostic interesting.
If you enjoy this video consider giving me thumbs up and subscribe, please.
Ask questions and leave comments.
@boxer2valve @BrooksAirheadGarage 
Хобби
Hi guys, I am from Germany and I am riding BMW R 90S for More than 40 years, doing all mechanical work on my own. You don‘t have to Make your mind on mechanical Noise because These bikes are Really old school Mechanic. My Father who was an engineer also always Said: as long as you can hear it, it is still in Place!
I’ve just rebuilt my 1987 bmw r80 gs. Same issue, the right cilinder has a different noise than the left one. But I thought the same thing than you, old bikes, old mechanic.. not quite but reliable. I’ll keep riding it, will check if everything is ok in some months.
I have an ‘83 R100RS and while it doesn’t make any funny noises, I have come to appreciate the raw simplicity of the 80+ year old basic design…..and it’s little quirks.
Check the exhaust mount below the cylinder. A rattle there will go away when it warms up.
Loud ticking or any abnormal noise is incredibly aggravating. It’s like the first scratch or dent. It’s the first thing I see when approaching my bike. Great job!
Absolutely great job. Love this video.
Traced my noise to uneven wear in pushrod ends and / or tappet adjusters---when checking tappet clearances rotate the pushrods and see if tappet gap changes ---!!!
Sounds nice to me. Quieter than my 11000 mile R100GS after a valve refresh. The noise is good. Great video. Thanks.
110,000 mile!
If my airheads aren’t making weird noises it bothers me…
Good job sir
Well done. I’m going to follow your process on my r60/6 to try and find where my valve train noise is coming from.
I have the same rattling noise on my R65 and it's only from the right cylinder as well. The fact that it changes with motor temperature means it's not a "catastrophic" condition like a valve seat or guide as these would be present from cold startup. I think it's rattling from the valvetrain, even despite the fact that you're using the brass drift/clamp method to set the clearance. The guys at motoren-israel make a ONE PIECE rocker stand that captures the rocker and entirely eliminates the axial displacement, around 215 Euro, but certainly cheaper than an upgrade to the 1984+ version with shims. Great video!
Who has the "rocker stand"? Where can I get a set.
Thanks for sharing!
I've been driving a 79 R100 for 33 years, I even did a woodcut of my bike titled what's that tapping noise? Anyway I set my valves correct any end play and enjoy my noisy bike, it runs great and I do all my own wrenching.
I worked at a BMW dealer for 4 years as a mechanic. I had the same issue with a bike. After many hours doing the same as you I replaced the lifters and the noise went away.
I totally agree
very nice idea 💯🙏👍
If it is not broken do not fix it. Cheers from South Africa , home of the rugby champs
Have an r100rs love it the most reliable agricultural machine on the farm.
Same problem on a '76 R90/6. Right side clickety, left side normal but it came and went and was worse at high rpm's. I pulled the rocker shafts out to realize that those needle roller bearings are not caged and will fall out into the space between the rocker shaft and the rocker and unless you are really careful you'll miss it. May or may not be your problem. Put lots of grease on the rollers to keep them from falling out before you completely remove the rocker shaft. Use the shaft to keep them in while you grease them up then pull it out. Several youtubers say that one side is always louder than the other. Not sure I buy that but it's out there.
I have the same symptom, R65, but on the left cylinder. Did rocker arm end float. Did valve adjustments many many times.
Eventually found the left cylinder 😊exhaust push rod had play where it fits into the cup behind the rocker arm. It was centred in the push rod tube, but was relatively "loose" in the rocker arm seat cup compared to the others. While idling with the cover off I managed to put some side pressure on the push rod and the noise went away. Further than that i have left it and just ride it.
I'm wondering if the wear is on the end of the push rod, or in the seat cup of the rocker.
Not sure if its the same solution to your problem.
Thank you for the interesting videos. Keep them coming
On my BMW R100S I also hear some klicking when the engine is cold which disappears during warmup. Valve adjustment is according to manual.
I feel your pain. I've been chasing the same ticking noise from the same valve in my r80/7 for 2 years now. A new timing chain made no difference either. Valve guides all good. The only time It went away (or I stopped hearing it at least) was one time after a long bedding in period where I hadn't checked the gaps at all (perhaps 6-8 weeks) the clearance on that valve became super tight. I adjusted it to the recommended distance and the ticking noise came right back. But here's the weird bit... straight away I tried closing the gap again over a few increments but could not reproduce the silence from before 🤷♂️
Thanks for the comment. I just got a r100/7. That bike has no ticking. I wonder what the real cause of this tick is.
The simphony of noises is ever changing through the miles almost like a radio station but as long as the adjustments are by the manual you're fine. To further increase the precision just add a 0.05mm feeler gauge to the vertical play of the rocker arms and not "oil is coming out", in the long run the parts will conform to each other.
I love watching your videos! Filming is great and narration of moment-by-moment out loud thoughts and processing is really helpful! You teach me so much! I didn't even know the airhead could be run without the valve covers (with warning not to run it out of oil!) as you show us in this video! Thanks so much!
Thank you so much!
Geez i used to prize myself at 1500 mile valve check in about 30 minutes. To do it right really have to play with the rocker shaft longitudinal play.ccperfomance made rocker end shaft bearings
They weren't cheap & you had to mill the shafts. A friend went for the big bucks, gotta tell ya , it's not 750 Honda quiet. Then again there's no gas tank above the valves to quiet them.
I have a 70 model /5 with a noise right side top end too. So strange it’s the right side. I have had new valve seals,valves, valve springs and seats installed on both heads I adjust the valves properly I squeeze the rocker holdowns with pliers as I tighten to remove play. The left side is nice and quiet but that right side…..
I have also replaced pistons, rings pins had a bore and replaced the lifters.
I just ride the hell out of it now !
you can't delete the free play of rocker arms in that way, every single rocker arm support is centerd by itself, so you can adjust that play only mounting a custom bushing with the right thickness or let the engine rattle.
On my 95 R 80 GS th right cylinder exhaust valve noise is x2 or x3 times more than the left side.Every clearence is in perfect tolerences but can nt reduce the noise to it's normal levels! :)
Hi! Also have the very same issue with my r100r. Right hand side only. All adjusted and checked and its still there. Ill be on it again today, trying to figure it out.. We'll c.
Good vid btw. Thanks.
My r100r has 0,15 end play, tolerance is 0,03-0,07mm, i think its time to reshim the rocker arm
Have a look to the lifters and push road ends on the inside of the engine probably there is some abrasions on the surface of the lifters and when it get warm …..you maybe have the noise going and get back as the lifters move à bit
You might want to check that your head gasket isn’t upside down, if it or they are upside down, the pushrod will rub the edge of the gasket. After a long time it can really rub enough to weaken the pushrod, especially on the pre’76 small push rod tube models. If you can’t see down the tube, you can remove one rocker, pull the pushrod out and the rubbing will be pretty obvious.
During the refresh that preceded this video i did find the head gasket installed wrong. I did however install it correctly. There is video evidence on my channel that I did.
Thanks for your comment.
I’ve got a R100/7, they are old school and tend to make a bit of noise, might I suggest some ear plugs. Mine goes a lot better when I’ve got ear plugs in.
👍👋👍
I have an R65 and noticed that the noise is much more pronounced with that type. Tried numerous times to adjust the valve train train, but that did not help. Noise seems to come from the cylinder.
My current estimation is that it is a topling piston at top dead centre, which is more audible when there is no load on the engine.
Interesting. I just worked on someone's R65 and that was rather quiet with 56k miles on it. The valve train on those is different from my /6. It has plastic bushings and shim to adjust the axial rocker play.
I have the same issue on my 86 R80. Right cylinder only, the left is good now after adjusting the rocker arms. The engine is completely rebuild including heads, timing chain, all bearings...etc. It gets better after I readjust the rocker arm vertical play as you did but the clicking noise ( metal sound ) comes back very quickly. It's seems like the sound comes more from the cylinder than the cylinder head/rocker arms on mine but it could be wrong. I will keep paying around with it, and break the engine in some more. Very interesting....same problem....same cylinder !! I am going to check my rocker arm needle bearing to rocker arm shaft clearance/play next, any play there could cause that the adjustments won't stay permanent.
A few guys have told me they have the same noise on the same cylinder. Maybe it is some sort of resonance. I thought of doing the timing chain next and see but as you mentioned you did your chain already and still have the noise. Thanks for your comment.
@@HeikosGarage Did you replace you needle bearings or checked your rocker arm shaft/bearing play ? just wondering since I be doing that next....Enjoy your ride👍
@@uwemeffle8057 I had replaced the rocker shafts and bearings at an earlier point because I thought that those were the cause of the noise. That didn't fix it either. I also resurfaced the pads on the rockers that touch the valves. That didn't make a difference either.
@@HeikosGarage ☹☹☹☹☹Danke !!
@@HeikosGarage So I was experimenting on my rocker arms on the right cylinder again. I tried many different ideas and came up with a combination of things to get rid of top end noise. here are the 3 things I did different.....
#1 I did not use a clamp but squeezed the rocker arms with my hand as hard as I could and tightened it to 15 ft lb torque first before retorquing it to the 26 ft lb. I had very little vertical movement and the oil was still squeezing thru and rocker arm was moving freely...
#2 Because it seemed to be ok at first on my last attempt and then got noisy again after I rode it for a while I retorqued (just the rocker arms) this time up to 28 ft lb.
#3 I also set my valve clearance tighter, not by much but I made sure my shims were squeezed so it was harder dragging them thru ( 004" intake and my .008" exhaust )
Maybe I just got lucky or maybe those small changes made a difference but the noise valve is gone and sounds the same as the left cylinder.
I took a couple of rides and it's still good !!
My R60/6 has the same noise on the RH side, I think its just the way they are.
They have medication for that noise.😊
Brilliant video and I share your frustration as I have the same on my R69S. If you find out please please let me know. BTW mine is on the left hand side! Just a thought - did you replace the valve springs. Could it be this or am I clutching at straws. Thanks
I didn't replace the springs but i have thought the same. The next time I take the heads off I will load the parts cannon and replace everything.
My airhead is from 1990 and the rocker end float (lash) can be checked using a feeler gauge to see if it is in spec.🍀
It is different on a 1974 airhead.
Are you using stock pushrods ? Check your lifters
I used a giant c clamp on the rocker blocks , but all air heads make top end noise
Yowzaa... I'll go through everything...again. right side is pinging after adjustments...
Having exact same issue with a R90/6 model too. Right hand side keeps much more sound like metallic ticking when you rev up the engine, not much or no noise when idle, but little rev and the ticking starts. Have adjusted the valvels like you in the video for 3 times already and it does not go away. Cylinder heads are new and done by sport-evolution in germany, engine rebuilt, new cylinder piston rings etc. And this frustrates mee too. Just got the bike finished and can´t find it. Sound like either cylinder or cylinder head like you have. Did you find out what causes it? Or what it was?
Mine actually got better after a bit of break in and a readjustment. Some say it can be caused by the timing chain but I haven't looked into that.
@@HeikosGarage Allright, Maybe just me then overthinking this, but as there is a clear tickling sound on right, and left sounds like a Singer sewing machine as it should. Need to do once more the valve check and retorque and see that the pushrods are in middle for sure, and no endplay. Maybe this also just needs some more break in as now the engine is new and rebuilt with most partst new like bearings etc. Hope they settle in and start to reduce the noise as yours. It´s just weird that some other comments here and somewhere else that found, all say it´s the right hand side that has the noise? What are the odds for that, or a symptom common to these?
@@MrKenzo1 I would check everything again and then go for a ride. Enjoy the bike.
@@HeikosGarage Hi again. Have now rechecked and torqued etc the right cylinder 3 times and this noise keeps me awake. That do I dare to take it on the road or not. Took a short video on it and thought you might have some comments on it. Does it sound like you had or different? Can’t figure out if I have a problem or not? Left sound to me like normal, but this right one has cleat and much higher metallic sound than left. Could you check my video and give your thoughta for a penny? ruclips.net/user/shortsOvw9fTUbQ5Q?feature=share
I think it is false economy to only change 1 valve - they have all done the same mileage. I have just done mine and it got everything - hardened seats, new valves, guides and springs. Sorted.
You can't loosen a nut off when engine is hot, and expect to get it torqued up correctly. Like your friends said, it sounds normal, and it sounded like oil squishing to me, you may be getting more oil to the R/H cylinder rockers than the L/H.
Did you ever get this valve train noise worked out? What was the cause?
I have a plan for another video, showing what can be done. Stay tuned.
First off i'd take an ugly road ground up or cracked wall art valve cover and cut it away ( the bad side) enough allowing valve adjusting yet deep enough it's higher than the drainback to the pushrod tubes. No mess running engines. This plus a large running fan while tuning and checking timing including syncing timing to dead nuts no ghost shadows. Dyna III triggering system with BMW's mechanical advance tuned to each engine. Single primary twin secondary output coil.
Comming of the highway up to a traffic light yes the valves sound louder than normal. Set to spec at the wide limit not the narrow limit. Rather hear the valves than smell them.
With locking down the valve adjusters your "Hamfisting" too tight being brutal just breaking the nut loose later.
I must ask, how many miles has this engine been run on modern oils having lack of cam and lifter protection that past oils had with zinc and phosphorus added? This protection including high pressure contact areas like valve stem tips and pushrod cup and ball ends protection now gone unless a proper oil is being used.
Running Air Heads that were designed to run on leaded gasoline not the unleaded rubbish we have today unless the valve seats have been replaced for unleaded as well valves. Good time to check or replace the valve guides while apart.
JMO my R25 & R27 (250's), 70 R75/5, 75 R90/6 & 76 R90s are all factory original, I add lead additive at every gas fillup. Depending on the 6.3 gal or 3.2 gal tank bikes determines which size premeasured plastic bottles I carry along riding out of town or out of state trips. Small 4 or larger 6 oz. bottles easy to pack in the tail bags.
Octane Surpreme additive in the three 850 Nortons, all the bike valves are rock steady, zero valve reccession or clearances issues with factory valve seats and valves.
Back to oils, adding engine Break In OIl is one expensive way for added protection for these Non Roller Rocker Beemer cam, followers or cam with rocker pads depending on brand of bikes.
Lucas Motorcycle 20/50 Full Synthetic engine oil has been tested against five other brands of oils, examples, Redline, Valvoline 20/50, Royal Purple. Non detergent Valvoline VR1 with zinc & Phosphorus (sludge city if running long distances vs short time in race engines where sludge isn't a buildup issue. Last was Honda's brand motorcycle oil dealerships service department install in customer bikes telling me "it's hood enough for the older Honda engines". Yeah right.
All oils except Valoline VR1 being non detergent were run on an exact distance off road course including a 6 1/2 mile long dry lake a full throttle run nearing redline the torture test lake. Same narrow within 80 degree F temps and dirt roads covering 400 mile laps then the oils sent to a lab.
The test mule a 82 XR Honda thumper with a 582 cc big bore kit speced out to the specs used in the Baja 1,000 offroad engines decades ago.
All the oils sent to Blackstone Labs for oil analysis. PPM of different metals normally worn off from an engine in good mechanical condition. Lowest PPM metals worn off by the oil having the highest engine protection being the lowest in PPM worn off was Lucas 20/50 Synthetic Motorcycle Oil.
Running oils not having the protection zinc and phosphorus reduced then removed completly over a decade in time is now a slow death you will not notice until the damage has been done to cams and followers of the old slipper design in older air cooled bike engines. Automotive industry solved the oil issue by introducing roller rockers, problem solved. Theydidn't like the added expense vs reliability issues if they didn't change to roller rockers.
Even the Dodge Hemi engines the police used that were idled long periods of time while on duty still had roller rocker failures vs driving then the higher rpm's that slinged oil off increasing the roller lubrication reducing roller failures. Regular street run Hemi's still have failure issues. A thin line with oil protection and engine design.....Bean Counters strike again?
The cam and rocker pads are are on the edge of destroy themselves on the Honda 600 cc thumpers that i'm well familar with owning and repairing these engines. Failures with the cams and rocker pads a big increase this past decade alone.
Any short time of oil loss like after crashing in the dirt the engine on its side revving with the oil pump sucking air over a short time these older Honda engines ending up damaging themselves. Riders a half hour later notices the valve clatter is getting rather loud, it's the cam and rocker pads destroying themselves, damage done, distruction from running regular oil. They also run rather hot normally, add slow speeds with not enough air cooling, dirty or low on oil, KaBoom. A XR400 oil cooler as added protection oil to the head , cam and rocker pads is a must if you respect machinery.
I'm a gearhead to the max, past life rebuilding large radial engines, running up and break in on teststand, R 2800 Pratt & Whitney radials. We sent every engine newly rebuilt and old engines being serviced their oils to the lab able to catch an injured engine before it destroyed itself. No place in the sky to roll to a stop, park it and walk away after an engine failure.
My name says all, sorry for the long Novel.......~~=o&o>........
Could it be a bent pushrod that is contacting the tube?
During the top end refresh I checked all the push rods. I think it is just normal.
@@HeikosGarage cheers for the reply👍
Dont overtighten the adjuster lock nuts, it will eat the thread...
When they stop making noise , you have a problem .
I suggest it might be the rocker shaft having some free play to hit the head bolt as it turns with the rocker ( same problems have happened with Harley evo engines producing a ticking noise when the engine is warm )
That is something to look into.
I checked it and made it play zero. Dit not help.
Other option: the push rods consist of two parts and there may be play at the connection. So also to be checked .... which in my case did not solve the problem.
The only that worked were ear plugs ...
@@JongJande your is /5 then. Hard to say. Lots of moving parts in those airheads.
You should check the valve seat
Bent adjuster? bent pushrod?
Checked both. I also checked if the push rod is center in the tube.
I just did a top end refresh and I inspected everything in the process. I had the noise before the refresh and I unfortunately still have it afterwards.
@@HeikosGarage I just re did all my valves with 006 inlet and 008 ex on the R60 and I got the tap ticking to a near absent level. Took a lot of checking at tdc over and over it seems but now it rev climbs quiet to 6500rpm easy.
@@HeikosGarage I just thought maybe a damaged edge on valve spring below the keeper that clicks when expanded like a bad end grind?
@@441rider maybe, next time I dig into this I will replace everything. New valves, springs, retainers, keepers, all new valve guides and probably a big bore kit from Siebenrock. Until then I will ride and enjoy it.
Did You check the valve SEAT?
Yes, i did check the seats. I had the whole top end apart. The next thing I will look at is the timing chain and guides. Thanks for your comment.
A friend of mine bike was exactly the same, i just removed the head it was the pistón hitting slightly the head. Wrong gasket
You are very consciousness mechanic, but I had to laugh while you were adjusting the valves, seemed like you were a little apprehensive on valve lash Did you ever check or change lifters? I'd be more concerned on too quiet valve train (thermal expansion) ie burnt ex valve down the road, no pun intended. Good luck
I just had the lifters out during a recent top end refresh. I lapped the valves and inspected all the valve train parts including lifters, pushrods, tubs, rockers, rocker bearings even resurfaced the rocker pads that touch the valve stem. Measured the valve guide play.
I guess I am to picky. But you are right, to tight ain't good either.
@@HeikosGarage Just wondering about the lifters, if you switched or replaced? Guess I love that BMW ticking sound, had it since 1984, still have that bike
Great video, i have valve noise issues on my 1964 R69s, if the valves gap set to tight the noise is very low, but the engine power is in half, with corect gap setings (15/20) the noise is back the engine is working very powerful but the valve rattle is to noisy, any idea ?
Are the rocker bushings worn? Have you taken a look at the contact surfaces that touch the valves on the Rockers? They can be pitted or rough and make additional noise.
Der Typ soll besser an einem Harley Traktor Schrauben aber auf keinen Fall an einer BMW .
Du bist ja bestimmt der Experte. Gruß, Heiko
@@HeikosGarage Das will ich nicht behaupten. Fahre selbst eine R 90/6 seit über 30 Jahren würde aber nie auf die Idee kommen mir dem Hammer am Ventiltrieb zu arbeiten. Außerdem macht es wenig Sinn das Achsialspiel mit der Schraubzwinge einzustellen. Aber jeder kann mit seinem Motorrad machen was er will. Für mich ist der Mann ein Grobmotoriker .
@@axelfunke6527 du kannst ja deine eigene Meinung haben. Die Methodik mit der Schraubzwinge ist weit verbreitet and von vielen BMW Mechanikern empfohlen. Ich bin der Mann. Ich bin der Grob-motoriker.
@@HeikosGarage Ja meine Meinung hab ich ja auch . Wie gesagt jeder kann ja mit seinem Motorrad machen was er will. Es gibt auf RUclips einige wirklich gute BMW Schrauber welche explizit zeigen wie zb das Achsialspiel eingestellt wird . Ich wollte Dir nicht zu nahe treten aber an meinem Motor würde ich Dich nicht Schrauben lassen.
@@axelfunke6527 kein Problem.