The Missing East London Motorway Junctions
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- Why does the M11 start at Junction 4? Everytime I drove up the M11, I was surprised at how far I’d got so quickly, reaching junction 6 before it seemed reasonable. After doing this a bunch of times, I bothered to actually look on the map and found out that the junction where I joined the M11 from the A406 North Circular Road - the beginning of the M11 as far as I was aware - was numbered as junction 4. This explained how I reached junction 6 so quickly, but it didn’t explain where junctions 1, 2 and 3 of the M11 were.
So I decided to look into it, and made this film about it. I think it is broadly correct but I may have missed things - do let me know in the comments if I have, and any other points of interest.
Equipment
The film was shot mostly on a DJI Mini 2 drone, using Skyreat neutral density filters
Other shots were caught on a Lumix DMC LX100 with a Manfrotto Pixi mini tripod
Editing was done with Apple’s Final Cut Pro
Diagrams and other motion graphics were done in Apple Motion
Music
The tiny bits of music are:
1) The Big Beat 80s by Kevin MacLeod and Syrinx Starr
2) Cloud Wheels, Castle Builder by Puddle of Infinity
Both are from the RUclips Audio Library.
The M11 protest singing comes from the film ‘You’ve got to be choking’, about the direct action held against the building of the M11 link road. View that film here • You've got to be choki...
Research
A brilliant book about the London Ringway, ‘Rings Around London’, provided great information. Buy it on Amazon here www.amazon.co....
The incredible Roads.org.uk website provides a ton of information and is a real labour of love - www.roads.org....
The Sabre Roads forum can also be a really good source of information - www.sabre-road...
#DJImini2 #EastLondon #M11 #A12
Jay Foreman’s excellent video on this project is recommended!
100% recommend watching jay foreman he gives more of an indepth explanation of the project as a whole along with his skits
I live local to the M11 and have always wondered why the M11 started at Junction 4. Good video.
Glad to have helped explain. Thanks for watching.
Me too
The M25 is a combination of both Ringway 3 and Ringway 4. The A406 North Circular is AFAIK the Northern Half of Ringway 2 - a lot of it to near motorway standard.
Very interesting! Please do more London/ UK motorway vids, I find them fascinating.
I will certainly try to - I'll see what I can find! In the meantime, be sure to see Jay Foreman's video about London's unfinished motorways if you haven't already. ruclips.net/video/yUEHWhO_HdY/видео.html
jay foreman does an entire series of this known as unfinished london he covers everything related to london
Next, a video on the missing South Circular Road (don't be fooled by the collection of back streets masquerading under this name today).
yeah, that south circular is a bit of a headache... but could be interesting history.
I heard it described as a collection of signposts.
This is the same on the M23 towards the South of the M25. The M23 starts at junction 7. Junction 1 would have been as far North as Streatham in South London.
At junction 7 there are some tell tell signs including a completely disused motorway bridge the slip from the M23 to A23 uses, with a stub of a slip road heading north into a farmer's field at junction 7.
Wow, Streatham eh? That IS far north. I should go and take a look.
@@HollowayTyre This abandoned scheme is the same reason that M1 junction 1 has a decaying stub of an ongoing Southbound carriageway and such a clunky afterthought of a slip road connection from the A406 Westbound. That was supposed to be the Northbound main carriageway and not a random crossroads in the middle of a roundabout.
I remember when Charlie Browns roundabout was totally flooded and just recently on the 406 just up from the roundabout its been flooded twice. The underpass at Wanstead was a great outcome from the protest I feel, wanstead has still got a local busy and vibrant highstreet.
I didn't know that Charlie Browns had flooded, but I guess it makes sense as the Roding River is right at the side of it. I think Wanstead does benefit from the underpass, George Green might have been completely built over without the underpass.
The roads protesters in the '90s were right, that link-road caused terrible destruction.
I have often wondered why the M11 motorway commences at Junction 4 & Junctions 1, 2 & 3 were never constructed!
I think the reasons has got to be cost to build the junctions & objections from property & land owners etc!
They say that the M27 motorway which runs from Ringwood to Portsmouth in Hampshire is an unfinished motorway, it was supposed to have been built beyond Portsmouth towards Chichester/Brighton but it wasn't due to costs & objections etc!
Lots of good (or bad) intentions seem to get shelved in the middle of the project. Did I hear that HS2 has been shortened now?
Interesting video bud. Well thought out and put together. I wish you success!
Thanks for watching, and pleased it hung together and made sense to you!
Good vid. There is split right at the start of the M11 just north of The A406 in woodford where the M12 would have gone off and run across clay hall and the old hospital site heading for a route across the hainault playing fields.
I did not know that, very interesting. The southbound stub is very prominent on the satellite images.
Yeah, I can see the southbound stub, but can't figure where the northbound one is.
Interesting, thank you. Although born in Homerton, I now live near Brisbane in Australia. Here, in Queensland, the freeway junctions are numbered as per the kilometres from the beginning of the route. By this system, if the M11 began at Hackney Wick, the Charlie Brown roundabout would be Junction 8.
Oh wow, that is interesting. I've just been travelling around Brisbane on Google Street View to try and see this in action. Its an interesting approach, I wonder if there is a good reason for doing it that way? To give an idea of distance? I went to Brisbane a while ago, thought it was super relaxed and nice.
@@HollowayTyre Yes, it's a distance-based approach, and also allows for new junctions to be inserted without resorting to 'A' or 'B' or 'C' suffixes.
This approach mirrors the Australian/New Zealand Standard for Rural Addressing that was approved and published in 2003, with an update in 2011.
Previously, the task of locating rural properties required a definition such as ‘just a few miles past the cattle grid', or ‘after the first creek crossing’. This caused delays and inconvenience for emergency services and the delivery of goods and services to the community. Rural addressing now provides a standardised addressing system throughout Australia that is easy to understand and apply.
Allocation of rural address numbers is carried out in a logical sequence and in accordance with set rules. Each property is allocated a unique numbered address based on the distance of the property's entrance from the road’s datum (start) point. The property number is calculated by dividing the distance, in metres, from the datum point to the property’s main access by 10 and rounding to a whole number. Odd numbers are assigned to properties on the left side of a road and even numbers are assigned to properties on the right side of a road. Usually, the datum point is considered to be the end of the road closest to the nearest post office. For example, my address of 199 signifies that my property entrance is 1.99 kilometres from the end of the road nearest to the local post office, and on the left-hand side. My immediate neighbours are at #163 and # 235. Easy as!
@@HollowayTyre it's the same in Auckland NZ too, but it's from the beginning of the highway. You end up with exit number as high as 432 etc... Interestingly, house numbers on rural roads are also done by distance, so a house number 1910 is 19.1km from the beginning of that road.
Highway exits are numbered by km in Canada too. I think that the limitation of the consecutive system became apparent early on.
Drawing a map was was once a necessity here too. Now everyone has a number no matter how remote. I actually preferred being at a place that no one could find.
That's how the junctions on the newer motorways and semi-motorways (A rather than AP) in central Spain are numbered.
The M11 should really get new junction numbers
(especially with a new second junction for Harlow.
Actually, the M11 was originally intended to go even further than Hackney Wick - I believe it was supposed to terminate at The Angel, Islington.
Yes, I certainly read that this was one plan at one point.
There are a lot of these anomalies like this. Take the A14, the numbers increase from the M6/M1 junction until its end at Felixstowe. This is because the original number was in the A6xx series but was renumbered after the junction numbers were set.
But most of the road that is now the A14 from the junction at the top end of the M11 motorway was called the A45. Well that was it's number from the 70's at least, until they renumbered it IIRC around 2000 to the A14. I can remember seeing the M11 section up past Cambridge being built in the late 70's while flying in Chipmunks from 5AEF at Marshalls Airport Cambridge as a member of the ATC. Back then the M11 stopped at the A11 junction. I'm originally from Hornchurch in Essex, but now living in Norfolk.
@@AlanEvans789 yes a good chunk of it was the A45. The old A14 used to be Ermine street and us now the A1198. Roads should have numbers in the most anti-clockwise zone they travel through, hence the junction nu beds are correct o the A14, but the road number is wrong.
As an Essex resident, I wish there was an M12 road instead of the tedious A12 one.
So, your comment partly influenced me to look into the M12 and make a short film about it. But have I got it all right? ruclips.net/video/2566PyBJDAg/видео.html
I seem to remember that the bottom end of the A12 was numbered as M102 when it first opened - the section from the Blackwall tunnel to the Redbridge roundabout.
Think it was the A102M.
@@randolph795 thanks for this so it was a A road with a M qualification abit like the A1M.
Ah, I think I do recall seeing this designation. Quite odd.
It like the M62 ends at Junction 4 at the Rocket in Merseyside it was meant to carry on to the City Centre but didn’t and end in Junction 4 at The Rocket and Starts from Junction 4 to
Great video, more on this sort of thing please.
Something on the M12 here, if you're interested. ruclips.net/video/2566PyBJDAg/видео.html
I wonder if this isn't the real reason for the transition from sequential to mile-marker based exit numbering.
and then there's the slip roads between junc 5 and junc 4 which are to a police station but I think were meant to be a services at Chigwell
I seem to remember m11 starting from the water works roundabout .till they built the 406 and the flyover over Charlie browns roundabout .🤔🤔🤔
I've heard this from others, and have been looking for old A to Z's to clarify this to me.
What a load of shoemakers. What would you call Redbridge Roundabout if not the 'start' of the M11? And of course the North Circular (and it's counterpart the South Circular) had existed 4 decades before the GLC. (The eastern crossing of the Thames was the Woolwich Free Ferry).
I used to live just left of centre, above the line of the flyover, at 1:44. I was born only a few hundred yards up the road from Jct 4 in Redbridge.
How was it living there? Fairly noisy I guess?
@@HollowayTyre Not "noisy" as such, but there was a constant hum from the M11/A406 that never, ever, stopped.
At 0:33 the picture shows the M11 to A406 westbound (going to the right of pic) and the M11 to A 406 also westbound (going to the left of the pic). This needs altering! M11 to A 406 westbound is the route going to the right.
OMG! You are eagled eyed and most certainly correct. Now I feel depressed (it took ages to get those stupid captions working...!)
I'm not from London, but I can tell you that you're all lucky that you didn't get *four* motorway ringroads around your city.
From memory I think Beijing has six ring roads and I think I've seen four of them.
hopefully M4 and M1 motorway completed. M4 which starts at Chiswick , near inner London and then changes to Hammersmith Flyover in A4 and M1 Which starts on Staples Corner but it was meant to be go to Hampstead.
I don’t drive, but used to use the coach’s the M1 to Sheffield and Bradford. I no longer need to go To Sheffield and my legs got too bad to take the 5 hour journey to Bradford so I started doing that by train until the pandemic hit. When returning to London by coach the sudden end of the M1 before its intended terminus was always obvious. In the South the M23 ends at Hooley, where there is a partly built Junction.
Here is another question you maybe find interested to look into; Why is Maidenhead at junction 8/9 of the M4?
Because the motorway changed direction. Originally the A4(M) finished by joining the old A4 West of Maidenhead. The original M4 was to go north of Reading, but was changed to go south, so there were 2 junctions built, we now know that section as the A404(M). In all honesty it should just be J8. Also the services were never built there either.
@@bensaund I know why! I was suggesting it might make for an interesting video, rather than spoiling it with boring text in the comments. Anyway; if you look at the satellite view in Google Maps, you can still see the tree line of original road that used to curve north.
Good jarb. SUBSCRIBED!
Awesome, thank you!
There’s no jnc 3 on the M1 either. Unless you wanna regard Scratchwood service station as jnc 3. Which I don’t
me neither
Great video mate wonder why the low view count
Thanks! The count is going up now, perhaps your comment helped!
I love motorways! Have you covered M23's problem
I haven't, but people have told me about them!
You didn’t mention that junction 5 only goes London bound. As I understand it; this is because the Royal Mint is there. If anyone tried to rob it and get away they’d only be able to go towards busy London - not a quick getaway East on the M11. 🤓
Also close to the M11 roadworks and police area with a "private" bridge over
Decent criminals use a helicopter these days!
@@hairyairey seems like you’re talking from experience 😂 👮♂️
@@lofcmatt I'm not saying anything more without a solicitor present! 🚁💰💰💰💰
The M62 starts at 4 for the same reason.
Now that IS interesting. I might look into that, its piqued my curiosity.
@@HollowayTyre If you want to make a video, I know a good source on roads.org.uk. I think it is titled Liverpool Inner Motorways Plan, although I can't paste the link in right now sorry 😐 my phone can be weird sometimes.
Video
When the M11 was built it _did_ start at junction 3 - that was the Redbridge roundabout onto the A12. The part between junction 4 and the A12 became the North Circular when the A406 was extended to the A13. (Prior to that, the ‘North Circular’ south of the A12 looked a lot like the South Circular.)
Damn, yes, I've read this recently but managed to completely miss this in the video. Heck.
The NC forked when it reached Walthamstow; the A406 continued to meet the A12 north of Ilford (most of that is now the A1400) and traffic to the Dartford Tunnel was directed off at Whalebone Lane to join the A13 at Dagenham while the North Circular wound its way through East Ham towards the Woolwich Ferry. In the 80s the South Woodford to Barking Relief Road (it's still called that) absorbed both of these routes. Oddly enough, even though the A1400 is the shorter route to the A12, traffic is directed to the Redbridge roundabout and the phasing of lights mean it's not necessarily the quickest.
M23 also stops abruptly just after the M25, however it was supposed to continue past Croydon and on to Wandsworth bridge? It didn’t but there are those strange sections of duel carriageway that seem to exist only to create bottlenecks?
I've never even been to Britain and I'm still fascinated by your motorways. Here where I live we also have a number of stubby and unfinished freeways. On I-95 in Philly you have a bunch of ramps leading to nowhere near the Betsy Ross Bridge because NJ 90 was supposed to continue through north Philly as a freeway to link up with the Fort Washington Expressway (309) but it was never built. You have the Woodhaven Rd expressway with abruptly ends onto a side street after crossing Route 1 in northeast Philly. And over in Jersey we have Route 18 which infamously ends at Exit 5 because the southernmost 5 miles of the highway were never built.
Just been looking on Google Maps and think I can see what you mean about the I-95, and Woodhaven Road. How odd.
Junction 1 of the M1 in London UK has a similar situation, you can still see a portion of what would have been the Southbound main carriageway continuing on beyond the slip road now in a bad state of disrepair. You can see that the stub of the Northbound through carriageway was also built at the same time. However unlike the Southbound main carriageway that just ended up a dead end what would have been the Northbound through carriageway was repurposed into a slip road from the A406 Westbound. You can also see evidence this slip road really was not part of the original plan from its clunky connection with the A406 that just ploughs straight through what was clearly intended to be a roundabout. You can clearly see how that intersection was clearly cobbled together from spare parts of an abandoned idea and afterthought though.
The M31 is one which was never built, but around 10 miles were built a d named A329(M), then in the 90s a section was reclassified to fit in a bus lane. If completed, it would have cut a corner and a lot of traffic of the M25, M4 & M3. Today the motorway abruptly finishes at a roundabout where a brdge over the Thames was never constructed, the other end takea sharp left and directly into the centre of Bracknell.
That is certainly an odd ending to a road, and a large roundabout! Have you seen the Moreton Spur of the M53 - a similar tale, but a long spur of motorway that ends in a small roundabout - goo.gl/maps/So2Wa7skSymMapU4A
I must admit the amount of unfinished motorways we have in the UK are fascinating, especially when you can tell where routes were supposed to go.
The best one must surely be the M53 which even without the unfinished junction there is easy to tell that it was originally two separate numbers
That Moreton Spur looks crazy!
So Junction 3 would of been Walthamstow, Junction 2 would be Leyton and to meet up with the A12 and Junction 1 where it would end at Hackney Wick. Or why not renunber the junctions on the M11 Motorway.
Junction 1-A406 Charlie Brown interchange (possibly renamed to as South Woodford interchange)
Junction 2-A1168 Loughton and Chigwell (A113)
Junction 3-M25 J27 Theydon Bois interchange
Junction 4-Harlow A414
Junction 4a-Sawbridgeworth??
Junction 5-A120 (W) Bishops Stortford and services
Junction 5a-A120 (E) Stansted Airport and Colchester (A12)
Junction 6-A11 Newmarket and Norwich (A14 Felixstowe)
Junction 6a-A1301 Saffron Walden and Great Chesterford
Junction 7-A505 Royston and Duxford
Junction 8-A10 Royston and Cambridge (A10 continues to Ely and King’s Lynn)
Junction 9-A603 Sandy and Cambridge
Junction 10-A1303 (A428 St. Neots & Bedford) and Cambridge
Junction 11-A14 North towards Huntingdon and The Midlands (Birmingham M6)
A very clear explanation with good graphics and images - many thanks.
Plans for the M11 (or "radial route 6" as it was known) pre-date even the ringways - early plans had both it and the M1 ending on the "A Ring", in Central London.
Yeah,I read this book 'Rings Around London' (link is in the video description) and it talks about plans from the early 1900's, certainly before the 2nd World War. I read this book after making the film, stupidly.
incredibly high quality video my man, good work :)
Thanks so much, nice to hear!
So instead of being the M11 with a 70 mph speed limit, they called it the A12 with a 40 mph speed limit along part of its length. Hence I received a speeding ticket
The intended M11 southern terminus (Hackney Wick Interchange) was partially built in the early 1970s and the immediate section of A12 (then A102(M)) to the north-east would have been reclassified as M11 once the gap had been filled.
M25 consists of part Ringway 3 and part Ringway 4, hastily stitched together to complete an almost orbital motorway around London (this can be seen at the junction with the M26 and the sudden split of the M25 carriageways at South Mimms …
London, and indeed most British cities, are unusual in that there are very few grade separated roads/motorways that feed directly into or close to the city centres from outside, which is definitely no bad thing.
The real tragedy of the era was that the once world class railway system was eliminated long before the expected replacement road network was completed, or even started in a lot of cases.
This leaves us in the unenviable position of the 'worst of both worlds' whereby roads and public transport capacity are both grossly undercapacity for current needs.
Hopefully we will get a lot of the railways back in the next few decades.
This video has caught the algorithm, go make some more like this one!!!
People seemed to like and be interested in this film, but not so much this one about the M12 that was never built... ruclips.net/video/2566PyBJDAg/видео.html
I have lived in this area all my life. The protesters were not truly local people, who were were desperate for the traffic to be taken from their residential streets. Nearly all the residents in properties due for demolition were temporarily housed there in full knowledge of the fate. The people of Wanstead did fight to get the road tunneled under the Green but not ti kill the road entirely as they too were fed up with the traffic. In fact all the high streets and local roads are now thriving and without the traffic are much better places to be.
Well that is a really interesting insight and information. Thanks for commenting. Yes, the area is thriving, I'd agreed. The A12 is a bit of a monster though!
I think the standard numbering method of the U.S. freeway system is better -- exits are numbered by mile-marker. As a result, the mile-marker tells you how many miles you have to drive to the exit you will use. Even the freeways that formally numbered their interchanges sequentially, like the Pennsylvania Turnpike, have changed over to the more popular system. Where there is more than one exit between mile-markers, numbers are used, e.g, "1A," "1B," "1C" and so on.
Yeah, a couple of people earlier in the comments on this film mentioned that Australia amongst others also do this. In fact, it seems like the UK is a bit of an outlier in straight numbering - or may be I mean Europe having just looked at France and Germany. I like the mile-marker concept - it brings forward more information in the junction naming compared with a simple number.
@@HollowayTyre - Yes. I live off Exit 53 on the 5 Freeway, so I can quickly calculate my own distance to go from a mile marker. As I mentioned, some routes in the States used a sequential numbering system, but have switched. Naming exits by mile marker is particularly valuable when an exit is added or removed. That's one reason Pennsylvania Turnpike switched over.
And an added pretty much hidden bonus is that it must have at the very least have given serious pause to giving in to the metric system.
Think of the cost of replacement of each marker and all the junction numbering signs.
I would still like to know how much the similar senseless installation of kilometre markers on rail tracks here in Britain has and is up to now.
One more, why is the M271 incorrectly numbered as it is in zone 3, also why is there a roundabout halfway, this is a motorway and not an A road...
Motorways with roundabouts - amazing it doesn't cause more trouble or accidents. A bit like the A11 to Norwich, with all of its roundabouts.
Very Interesting. Do you have any Idea why you can only Get Off The M11 at Loughton but you can't get on the M11 at Loughton...It's very annoying???
Looking around, there are a number of theories including it thwarting robberies from the nearby money printing facility (goo.gl/maps/CT512QwJzS1M4vrX6), the ground isn't good to build on, something about not encouraging local traffic that I didn't understand and, finally, lack of budget.
@@HollowayTyre Yes. I have a friend in Loughton and he says it's because the Royal Mint have something going on there.
@@ThisIsBlackScarr The Bank of England printing works in Debden. You can see the factory on the left going North on the M11 just past the exit for Loughton. The theory being they didn't want bank robbers making a quick getaway heading North.
@@johnbeaven8951 Thanks
Is this a bit of a logistical problem. I lived in Dagenham and used to use the M11 to get to the A1. But I used the Barking by pass from the A13. Is that really the original junctions.
I think, if I understand you correctly, that a couple of other people have said this. Or, at least, that the Redbridge roundabout is Junction 1. But that would ignore the ringways plan and the big junction at Hackney Wick.
@@HollowayTyre I think the plan was to extend the M11 to a new river crossing at Barking. If Woodford is 4, then Wanstead would be 3, Ilford 2 and Barking 1 but of course it never happened.
The East of the UK is poorly served by motorways & A roads. Few years back, I lived in Somerset and visiting my father in London, the journey time took just over 2 hours. Living in Lincolnshire now, my sister is about the same distance away as my father was. I'm lucky is I can do the journey in 3.5 hrs! Usually nearer 4 hrs. The East of the country needs a motorway extended up to Hull. It could also do with a decent train line being built as well. That same journey takes over 5 hours by train minimum!
It always seem to take us whatever google maps suggests plus 2 odd hours to get anywhere up north. Driving up to West Yorkshire always takes an age.
Getting out of Essex is a major problem. By train you have to go to Liverpool Street station and then a ride in an expensive taxi to the Mainline Station serving North, West or South. Luggage on the tube was a no no pre-covid as the carriages were already packed with commuters arriving at Liverpool Street. One harrowing driving incident was when my Mother was dying in a Welsh hospital and the M25 was gridlocked and we ended up having to divert up the M11 and stay in a hotel. She was gone by the time we arrived. I would strongly advise people to avoid living East of London given the choice as access to the rest of the UK is severely limited. If you are as far North as Ely in East Anglia there are trains to Liverpool so it is not so bad. Cross rail seems more geared to Londoners as there are no through trains from East of Shenfield where a change of train is needed; sounds a bit like an old broad gauge-standard gauge transition station in a new guise.
No mention of the planned and scrapped M12 ?
There is a J 8/9 of the M4 because one planned junction was cancelled when some higher-numbered junctions were already in use.
I'm a LGV driver been on the M11 many times. Its never occurred to me that it starts at J11. Lol
It's been suggested that the M11 is extended to the A47 however this will depend on the A47 being dualled for some considerable length.
The A14 bit is pretty much a motorway anyway.
@@HollowayTyre it is now after the amount that's been spent on it however the main issue with the M11 is that it doesn't help with getting into East Anglia. It just ends after Cambridge
@@hairyairey Something more direct into Norwich might be good. Less roundabouts please.
@@HollowayTyre what holds back the east from having motorways is the high water table. M11 would have to be on an embankment to run parallel to the Ouse washes and you can bet there will be serious NIMBYism!
As the current arrangerment is now in place they should renumber junction 4 to 1, and all the others accordingly.
Yes. Or adopt the Australian system of naming junctions by distance from the beginning, as people have been telling me about on here.
Ah, more Unfinished London.
Less comedy in mine, I'm afraid...
@@HollowayTyre Still interesting.
I’m all ready in london
I go on this often and that bottom end at jct 4 is awful
Yep, I hear you!
There's no junction 3 on the M1, either. :)
There is but it goes to the services. But it was intended to branch over to the A1 but wasn't finished though.
There's no junction 6 on the M27.
It's the London Gateway service station