YF-23 Black Widow II Vs YF-22 Raptor | Advanced Tactical Fighter | Digital Combat Simulator | DCS |
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- Опубликовано: 25 янв 2025
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Ello
Base 2 fox 2! Break down, break down! 🕺🕺🕺
Day 5 of asking for ATG missions in F-35
Haha! It's like you saw my recent search history and decided to throw me a YF23 bone! Nice one!
The YF23 still looks like something from the future, even today.
Damn straight.
Idk why but when i see it i think of a slightly more futuristic su-57 and I automatically think it's ugly lol
It's a 6th gen design in a 5th gen comp
@@VIDGamer Also....the SU57 is a bit of a descendant of the YF-23. They incorporate the same S-duct to hide the engine heat and radar cross section
Yeah, but the canopy bow ruins it. The F-22 provides a better situational awareness and great all around viability.
When your missiles have larger radar cross sections than your aircraft.
Yea lol
Yeah, probably that's why that AMRAAM went for the other AMRAAM.
true
Damn, future aircraft warfare will be cool. Imagine people shooting missiles at each other, just for them to lock on to the other missile. Loads of explosions in the sky, and then... a return to pure WW2 dogfights with heat seekers, but even those will be problematic unless you have a tail lock due to all the heat resistant material and the plane's manouverability. In the end - guns will be all you have left
Hope the US army doesn't make the same mistake it did in Vietnam with the "missiles make dogfights obsolete" if they ever go against the J-20. Though the F-22 will have it outmatched there due to it's maneuverability
@@RazorsharpLTapparently the J-20 doesn't have a gun only missiles so it will lose regardless
Well, you know what that means...
We need a YF23 vs Su57 video!
I second that
The Su-57's "stealth" would be curbstomped.
That doesnt seem like a fair fight 🤣
I don’t think the SU-57 would stand a chance, stealth wise.
@@teemukustila True, but the hypersonic missiles and hyper maneuverability would challenge the Widow
Another big contender for why the F 22 was chosen was due to upgrade ability over the YF 23. Fun fact when interviewing a test pilot for the 23 he said it was the most stable platform he had ever flown on and even mentioned that he felt it was possible to let go of controls while preforming mid air refuelling, for a pilot to even suggest this is insane and shows what the test pilot though of the aircraft he was flying.
As formidable as the F-22 is (and I’m a big fan), this point is rather moot considering the AF is phasing out the F-22 with the F-35. The Pentagon’s move to green light the F-22 in hindsight is a bit of a blunder as the YF-23 could’ve fulfilled the role of the F-35 and F-22 and still been superior than both of them. And it would’ve had a 10 year operability advantage over the F-35.
@@Velodictorian not very feasible considering that the airframe itself would (from what I herd) not last past 2005-2010 other then completely remodelling the internal systems and changing the cockpit. For what the program was asking for, the 22 preformed what it was for far longer then what the 23 would be capable of. The YF 23 is my favourite aircraft but I believe that the U.S. made a logical decision about what would offer them the longest term security. Which is more then I can say for some of their other “great” decision’s.
@@lindenbyrne7725The same thing was said about F-15 and A-10 and they figured out how to upgrade them. That saying I have no idea the cost of maintaining an F-23 would’ve been and from my (poor) understanding is that’s one of the key factors for phasing out the F-22
The YF-23 was stable, but the YF-22 was so unstable that it can barely fly straight. So what does that say about the aircraft?
"When inteviewing". Did you do that?
I always loved the look of the YF-23 and wanted it to win vs. the YF-22. It just looked so much more advanced and cool.
Yes, the YF-22 looked like an evolution of the F-15. The YF-23 looked like something we'd use to fight off an alien invasion. Such a incredibly futuristic looking plane.
Canopy bows aren't really cool.
Pretty neat history lesson! I had no idea the YF-23 even existed. It's amazing how these older planes are still more advanced than most flagship jets today 😂
Well, you missed one of the coolest looking fighters ever made, and the one that was actually *better* than the original YF-22 in many respects, but it lost because it was a too big leap for the time - the YF-22 was seen as a more traditional and "reassuring" design, a sort of "stealth F-15". No surprise that the original YF-23 concept revived in some regards in the current 6th generation fighter projects.
You make me feel old. Thanks.
@@andreabindolini7452 That's not true. The YF-23 was simply different in a couple of aspects (stealthier and faster, but less maneuverable) and the YF-22 just better fit the needs of the airforce. You don't need to forcefully inject an "underrated" story into everything.
@birbdad1842 There was some political consideration in the decision as well. By that time the USAF has been burned by Northrop on delays and cost overruns with the B-2 program. Compounding that was the fact that Lockheed performed a live-weapons demonstration and high-AOA demonstration, whereas McD-Northrop did not. The F-22 was the safer choice, especially given that the program was already a decade old.
Sorry! 😆@@danpatterson8009
The YF-23 was like the F-20 one of those "best fighters never" aircraft
Northrop be getting shafted as if they aren’t the GOATS OFTHIS
its still technically the first and only 6th gen airframe, its fully unique while the f-22 looks like they just tried to stealth out a f-15 or something. Its also the best interceptor still to this day pretty much if it flew.
@@profo4544
What??
That's nonsense.
The YF-23 airframe is definitely not 6th gen. Far from it.
The proposed F-23, just like the F-22, was designed to fully meet the 5th gen requirements of the USAF's ATF program. And it does meet them. But nothing more than that.
That's why both F-22 and F-23 had similar stealth, range and flight envelope and performance characteristics.
No one on Earth in the late 80s had the technology and ability to design/develop a 6th gen jet. Hell, all of those companies taking part in the ATF program were only just inventing/creating the concept of 5th gen aircraft at the time.
6th gen capabilities and technology was the last thing on the minds of the people responsible for designing and developing the ATFs.
The USAF and US aerospace industry only really started thinking about and developing 6th gen fighter requirements, capabilities and tecnology in the early 2010s, no earlier than that.
NGAD will be on whole different level in terms of stealth, range and avionics and sensors.
@@BARelement The DoD was concerned that the same issues that plagued the B-2 program would plague the F-23, which was a factor in the decision.
@@deltasierracharlie Im talking airframe being unique but it kind of is, the yf-23 doesnt even have splitters, the f-22 is rocking splitters, the yf-23's rear tailplanes moved on a huge axis much like how the su 57s move, but the yf-23s tailplanes were the size of a f-35 wing, the raptor didnt even beat it high speed manueverability, only low speed. And the yf-23 was operating a what mach 2 ? with the same engines the f-22 was topping out at mach 1.6.. Whats making the difference? the Airframe. The yf-23s airframe took ques from nothing, its a fully unique diamond wing design, if a 6th gen body got built today ? it would be a fully unique computerized design, just like the yf-23 was. I mean dude, ur aware the yf-23 could manuever and operate at speeds the f-22 couldnt even reach ? Out of all the categories, the raptor beat it in one, low speed manueverability. This isnt even bringing into the IR masking the yf-23 used, the bigger weapons bay able to carry bombs, all the f-22 could carry is air to air. And the yf-23s stealth signature was actually smaller than the f-22's, and more likely to be confused with something else, while the f-22 was a solid but small dot, all while being a larger plane than the f-22. And isnt japan using the yf-23 as somesort of inspiration for there ngad project or whatever there coming up with.
I was a fan of the 23 over the 22.
Japan has currently formed a partnership with the UK and the Tempest program for their next (6th gen) fighter as it very closely matched their own program.
Yes, one benefit of Brexit was the UK being permitted to do things they do best; cutting edge battlefield technology.
I can see the US Navy buying a large chunk of EW and CEW technology from the UK in about nine years.
Italy is also part of the program (GCAP - Global Combat Air Program). Sweden has also signed an agreement to cooperate with Japan, and Saudi Arabia is pushing to join.
@@bertram-raven Lmao.
> Omits that Italy and Sweden (both EU members) are also part of the Tempest program
> Forgets that the British would've never built the Typhoon and Tornado without the Germans
Being an EU member has nothing to do with such "strategic" decisions. Unless you believe Bozza and the Daily Mail that is. Tempest was conceived before Brexit too. Hell France built Rafale on their own. But then again, I don't expect much from Brexiteers in 2023.
@@TheRealAdds Pretty sure they just expected a loss of personal autonomy on your part. Keep importing a culture that is openly admitting to wanting to end yours while you talking shit to others
Why spend more millions when you can revamp the YF-23 tail and use the Japanese Mitsubishi engine and the most modern radar and you have the best fighter in the world.
Thanks! Great mini doc, and great dog fight, G/S. We need more of these info/docs please.
Thank you very much and yes plenty more to come in the future.
Bro give me 10$ plz
If....you can amuse thousands of us by planning, structuring and stringing more than 2+2 together into an idea, coming up with a great video thats infomative and entertaining...maybe you might get a few bucks, dude ! 🤣😂😅@@aunmohammad241
Please reverse role fight. This was incredibly, evenly matched fight for sure. Multi round fights using all capabilities with an effort to see a merged dogfight battle to truly capture the abilities and weakness. I enjoyed the well developed and executed lesson on the YF 23/23 history, keep up the great work.
This is not over.
I have always loved the black widow, but the raptor remains my favorite looks wise.
Other way round for me XD
@@CakePrincessCelestia I like the *idea* for the shape for the YF-23 but the engines, wing, fuselage, intake, and canopy shape all look pretty ugly combined to me
Yf23 looks so cool, more futuristic looking
@@kuhnville3145the YF22 is also pretty ugly, but the finished product is outstanding. I imagine had Northrop won the competition, the final Black Widow II would have been a lot sleeker and looked amazing.
@@Slu546th gen airframe in a 5th Gen comp
I would say one of the other things that favored the yf-22 during the development program was that it had 3 internal bays over 1, meaning if there was a bay door malfunction during a mission, even if it was the main one, it would still remain effective in combat vs the YF-23 whose single bay was larger, but if it malfunctioned it wouldn't be able to fire any missiles. That plus the B-2 suffered such massive cost overruns there was hesitancy to assign them another major contract.
Didn't that work out great. Part of that overrun was the USAF changing the requirements well into the program forcing a redesign of the entire airframe, but what it meant was that Northrop actually had a good idea what a new program would cost.
Lockheed on the other hand did their standard over-promise and under-deliver sales pitch, and we wound up with good aircraft in the F-22 and F-35, that were way over budget and years late.
The production yf-23 was going to be stretched so it would have a separate weapons bay ahead of the primary bay which would hold the sidewinders. It also had an advantage since its weapons bay doors were masked by the inlets when opened. That reduced the radar spike when the were opened to fire.
My grandfather's last project at Mac was the YF-23. I was so mad when the 23 lost ;) I don't even think I was in HS yet.
You should be proud cause YF-23 lost to the better aircraft.
No, it really wasn’t….
I had no idea DCS had the Black Widow II! This has to one of the speculative battles possible as both planes are DEEPLY classified re their true capabilities. IIRC one of the "knocks" on the YF-23 was that it used an innovative but untested internal "carousel" missile mount system; officials were concerned that it was overly complicated and might introduce reliability issues. Of course, to create previously-unseen levels of stealth offered by the YF-23 some outside-the-box solutions were required. I hope Japan resurrects the Black Widow II as the base for a new aircraft. The design is simply too potent to leave in the dustbin of history and was superior to the Raptor in many way. Thanks for a great video!
probably the best interceptor and arguably the first and only 6th gen airframe, its fully unique while the f-22 looks more familiar, thats a small part of why it was chosen also. Another dude did 3v3 f22 vs yf23 another channel and the yf-23s won more than the raptors did, regardless of who was flying. The yf-23 seemed to be harder to get a missile lock on
Who cares, it's a videogame
@@Pikilloification
It's a simulator.
At the time of the competition I thought the YF-23 would win, mostly because it had "the look"-clearly a radical departure from previous designs. I recall the YF-23 team complaining that they had done a better job of adhering to the specification and that the YF-22 got the win because the Air Force changed their priorities. Who knows? The two YF-23 prototypes are in museums today- one in Dayton, and the other at the Western Museum of Flight in Torrance, California. I saw it there a few years back, sitting out in the sun in the museum's back yard. Hopefully they've moved it inside by now.
who cares
@UDontCare0 the people that clicked this video. Clearly, you are watching something that you don't find interesting including the information after the fact of this amazing aircraft.
Ever since the bandit unknown video awhile back when he got blown away by this, I've been waiting for this fight. Amazing work
Day 1 of asking for F-15 vs. Goodyear Blimp
Day 34 of asking for Cessna 172 vs F-22 Raptor
The Cessna doesn’t even have weapons
Ramming speed ahead
Bird dog with rocket launchers on the struts
There is not Cessna in dcs😑
Apologies if a double post from me here. Mine seem to disappear!
Or perhaps neither posted. Was making a reference make to the P51 video with the Mustang taking the F22 down by hitting it.
It's pretty crazy that the YF-23 has such similar characteristics to the NGAD concepts, minus the vertical stabs. Similar design philosophy too, favoring stealth over maneuverability.
Sorry…GS
As long as I've watched this channel, this is the video I've been hoping would be made. I've always loved the YF-23. I'm glad to see DCS has gotten to the point that we can have awesome match ups like this.
I wanna live in a multiverse that chose YF-23 over YF-22.
Every time i watch a missile go by the f22 not locked onto anything i think of the droid from portal 2 “are you still there?”
The YF 23 is still my favorite aircraft design ever I remember following the ATF program in the 90's and drooling over the YF 23 design hoping it would win the contract.
Thank you for this! I’ve been wanting some Black Widow II action!!!!
YF-23 is quite possibly my favourite fighter ever designed.
Agreed.
i dont know how you turned Combat into ASMR but here we are
I will forever be upset at getting robbed of the YF-23.
Really appreciated that introductory history on the two planes... You should do more of this in the future.
You should do YF-23 vs Su-57 or Su-75.
The SU 75 Checkmate is damn beautiful
@@xDerHunterHeli it doesn't exist lol
@@user-bw6jg4ej2m so does the YF-23 lol
Saw both of these fighters at the National Museum of the USAF in Dayton OH. They were just static displays but looked amazing! That museum is definitely worth the trip.
Thank you, been waiting to see the YF-23 on this channel for a long time.
This channel is so crazy with the quality I can't get enough
Really love the brief history/education aspect of this video! Keep up the great content!
I mean even in this the agility still is amazing, imagine the missile trying to calculate where it needs to be while the F22 flies some ridiculous maneuvers that are impossible for any other aircraft...
Ive trued to tell the F35 pixie dusters, "when everyone is stealthy the BVR advantage evaporates...so you better have better moves than sub 1 thrust to weight and the wing loading of a flying brick"
Very grateful GS finally managed to do a video on the YF23, the history behind both fighters and the ATF program really highlights America's lead in technology. YF23 will always have a sweet spot in my heart. What if the US chose the YF23 over the F22? How would it change warefare today? What if the US experimented the the F120's variable-cycle engine? I guess we will never know for sure. Great video GS! Also, would it be possible if you can do a video where you're the one flying the J20 or even the YF23 itself?
Get ready - the shackles are now off the UK.
@@bertram-ravenno they aren't
Dunno, Sidewinders kinda becoming a one trick pony with the F-22, I never see him flying the challenger aircraft.
@@Joseph116PZAs far as I know that's because they don't have a proper cockpit.
The YF-23 certainly wins on looks, beautiful aircraft!
Interesting fight. Now we need to see a rematch using Sidewinders and guns.
Love the combo history lesson + entertainment! I'm here for more of that :)
Who was flying the YF-23?
Finally the yf-23 . It was past time it got featured
You know you have a small RCS when the enemy missile goes after your missile instead of you
I wish they had BOTH won. Imagine the YF-23 in an interceptor role working in tandem with the F-22
Impossible due to the cost. High technology equals high cost.
@@FlintIronstag23 yes I know
@@FlintIronstag23 hence the Raptor program being canceled
Nothing will match the raptor until the NGAD. On paper and reality. The raptor is the finest product the military industrial complex has ever produced in the air.
Except in stealth the yf23 was better and had better thermals.
Anybody else finds the YF-23 kinda scary? Man this jet gives me the creeps, looks like something alien.Still love it.
Bro. This was an AMAZING video!
I believe some people have argued that while the F-22 Raptor was better as an air superiority fighter, the F-23 Black Widow II would have been useful as a stealth fighter-bomber / strike fighter replacement for the F-15E Strike Eagle.
God I wish we could've seen the finished thing. Even after refining the YF-22 into the F-22 we all know and love, it still doesn't seem as futuristic as the prototype Black Widows! The story around the name has some fun moments, at one point a triangular... panel? instrument? feature of some kind inspired the team to give it the red hourglass on the belly like its arachnid namesake. At least until they were forced to paint over it again to not compromise on stealth after higher ups quizzed them on it.
F-22 is an amazing plane, but I still think they should have picked the YF-23.
I guess in a world of stealth fighters, agility is king. And that's why the F-22 was chosen. A merger in the fight between stealth fighters is perhaps inevitable, the one with greater maneuverability will win.
Need to see a best of 3 BVR video of these two aircraft fighting. Love to see you fly the YF-23 against other fighters. Another fantastic video GS! 😉👍
Went out to Edwards AFB to watch a shuttle landing and drove by the two of them sitting side by side not far from the road we were on. That was the highlight of my day. Wind was blowing too hard for the shuttle to land. It had to land at White Sands 2 or 3 days later.
It's important to know that with planes this evenly matched. It really comes down to luck and pilot's skill. Neither airplane is particularly better than the other
Umm...I can't be the only one thinking of an F-15 vs Good Year Blimp video now, am I?
Very cool seeing the YF-23 flying. That was the best summary of the YF-23 I've seen - anywhere.
Your flying high, I'm flying high... that intro was amazing. 10 thumbs up.
I loved the Yf23, i remember sim flying it a long time ago
In 1990 I was in the 5th grade and had a friend whos dad worked on the YF-23. He brought me pictures, it was so cool.
Imagine being so stealthy that your missile goes after the other guys missile instead because it has the greater signature....crazy
This is cool, man. I like how you started adding the history before.
YF 23 beautiful aircraft! I hope to see more scenarios with this bird.
Full dogfight.... both with and without Fox 2s.
And another BVR engagement with some ground features and ground support.
I absolutely love the 23 but it makes sense given the relative parity in stealth to want more maneuverability if you were facing another similarly stealthy adversary. I think this battle illustrates it perfectly - if you are both stealth expect to need to go within visual range.
But GW didn’t win due to maneuverability.
"relatively parity in stealth"
...That still doesn't exist today in 2024? What crystal ball was the DoD using to measure this and see this non-existent advisory you're referring to?
Ow, it hurt to watch that ejection and see the pilot crater before there was even time to deploy the chute.
So glad you have done this, every time I see the YF-23 my hart beats faster, this plane is so beautiful and beyond his time!
It’s amazing how similar the YF-23 is to the new Air Force’ NGAD. Of course, there are no vertical tail surfaces on the 6th gen fighter and some other differences, but they clearly utilized the YF-23 platform in its overall design.
So good to see these aircraft after spending 6 1/2 years with the F-117 Nighthawk that couldn't fight it way out of a paper bag but sure raised hell on downtown Bagdad. Loved all the information at the start.
I'm old enough to remember the ATF competition. great video!
The YF-23 looks like it was designed by an alien intelligence. Beautiful aircraft.
Definitely like to see more of the yf23 and with you as the pilot. It seemed to turn pretty tight at one point (6:15). If it wasn’t for the pilot rolling up on his side seemingly oblivious to your missile being there i think he would have survived. You staved off each other quite a while and never actually got to use the maneuverability strength of the 22. At 5:15 he seems to be hauling ass. I would bet his hidden exhaust could help him stave off missiles possibly better at close distance than the 22 could.
It's funny and interesting to think that when stealth cancels both fighters out, it falls back to "classic dogfighting" within visual range.
Perhaps that may have been a factor as to why the DOD chose agility over stealth. Although I have heard that the world of classified aircraft has a LOT of drama behind the scenes, including bribery scandals, security leaks, and the occasional project leader who randomly ends up dead or missing.
In Ben Rich's "Skunkworks" book where he talks about taking over the program after Kelly Johnson, he mentioned Lockheed was in very hot water with the Department of Justice and DOD because a number of bribes with U.S. allies like Italy, France and Germany to expedite lead times and contractor licenses had given them leverage over national security interests.
So who knows? It could have been fair and square, or it could have involved the usual "politics" and bureaucracy of defense contracting.
The opening made me think I was on your Mini Doc RUclips page 😅 Great video as always
Even though it's 35 years old, I'd still pick the YF-23 Black Widow II over the Su-57 Felon any day of the week. The technology for the aircraft was miles ahead of its time.
Excellent! The YF-22 has always been one of those "could have been" jets that was lost to history.
You said YF-22!😂
4 miles firing rockets feels like they're fighting with rocks
I can't wait for the merge gunfight.
Saw “Gray Ghost” back in May at the USAF museum in Dayton Ohio, it’s a beautiful plane.
Idk. I know that the 23 has the 22 on stealth and speed, 2/3 measurements, but I feel like the 22’s maneuverability advantage makes up for both of those things. The 22 can obviously still find its way into a stealth fighter’s visual range without being Insta-killed, and once that distance is closed the raptor is highly capable. I’d rather our fighter be more capable in the dogfight instead of being more effective from a long range. If a Russian gen 5 gets lucky and closes that gap, you’re gonna want the 22’s godlike maneuverability.
I 100% agree
I believe that the Japanese are also in talks with the UK to join the Tempest program. Rafale v Eurofighter please.
could you do some more vids with flying the YF-23? BVR, behind enemy lines, etc. just a better perspective of the capabilities and differences of it as opposed to the F22
YF23 pilot ejected too close to the ground and got smashed. RIP
Love the documentary type intro! Great fight, bringing it into 4 miles
I’m surprised that GS didn’t do a round 2 with him flying the YF-23.
The missiles targeting each other was hilarious, image using that as an actual defensive maneuver.
I still think the YF23 should have won the contract. Also, I personally think it looks better, and the engine intake and exhaust designs were really fascinating. If you ever want to see what the F-23 would have looked like if it went into production, Hanger B Productions used some references to infer some design cues.
I think the future of aircraft will be a stealth aircraft capable of dogfighting. If everyone is going to have stealth fighters then it’ll always come to these close dog fights and the upper hand will always be with the one more capable at dog fighting. Itll probably progress to stealth bombers only since dogfights would be nearly impossible due to the inability to track enemy aircraft.
1:00 so I guess that makes the F-22 a worthy opponent to a Chinese blimp
I liked the little bit of history lesson to open the video. Poor dude ejected face first into the ground. 😂
Funny that the YF23 bears more than a passing resemblance to the Su57! 🤔
Can you explain how?
They look nothing alike to me.
I have been waiting for this. Now, what about the F35 vs. YF32
YES
That was quite the duel.
What I got from this was the YF-23 is better at beating non-stealthy opponents, but as soon as the opponent is also stealthy, and there is a risk of getting to the merge, the F-22 is better. So, the F-22 is more future-proof I suppose.
You should reverse the roles and fly the YF23.
The short history of the two aircraft before the fight was cool.
Your strategy is what makes the difference. A suggestion. One round you pilot the F22 one round the f23. Continue this format and let us see the real difference in the aircraft's capabilities.
Aweeeesome. I really want to see more prototypes and experimental aircraft flown by GS in DCS. Maybe a Su-47, a Grumman X-29, a Sr-71 Blackbird.
Super cool video!! Thanks for posting! Two fantastic looking jets duking it out made for great content!
I am cool with the USAF going with the F-22. I feel the U.S. Navy should have bought the F-23 as the replacement for the F-14s. That's me.
That was a really good intro. I forgot I was watching a DCS video
YF-23 is just plain awesome.