I have no problem with how worship songs should be made. I think Christian men often fall into the trap of stoicism which leads into pride. In my old life I've bashed people, was a drug dealer, rapper, power lifter, fighter - all the things people label as 'masculine'. But after finding Christ, and falling in love with him, I bump Oceans, Sinking Deep, and What a beautiful Name ALL THE TIME. Hate on me. Mathew 5:5 calls us to be meek, and meek implies a gentleness, or atleast in the original greek translation, power under control. A guy in prison last year told me "I used to think Christians were pussies, but they're actually strong people. It takes true strength to say no to crime, money and shit". That's what makes a REAL masculine man, his capacity to say no to sin for the sake of loving Christ.
I agree and I feel like a lot of hyper masculine men overcompensate out of FEAR. Which isn't masculine at all. Be who God called you to be, be bold, be strong and lead and live with loving kindness and SENSITIVITY to the Spirit of God, instead of acting like a child and "pretending to be strong" while using the world's example of strength as a template.
Thank you for sharing this. It really got me when you brought up the prisoners' personal perspective.. Saying to sin is true masculinity. As a dad with a daughter, I feel a tremendous sense of responsibility to represent to my daughter what it means to be a man in the way jesus christ wants me to be. 🙏 thanks
@@AWDTH1111 Just a gamer tag I've had since middle school. I like'd to think of it as the killer of false gods. So I keep it around. There's also some really nice chants in Arabic in the Byzantine fashion.
As a worship leader, I honestly believe that some of the critiques against modern worship songs are purely preferential. Not all labeled "emo" worship songs are "Jesus is my boyfriend" stuff. Some of it are theologically accurate in terms of revealing the patient, merciful, loving, forgiving character of our Father in heaven. And speaking of "emo" songs, King David wrote a lot of emotional Psalms, so there's that. I understand that choosing the right songs for a congregational worship is essential. And though I won't judge those who choose to be firm and stoic during corporate worship, please don't belittle others who wanted to be vulnerable in the presence of the King and Creator!
As a woman I wish we sang more victory songs. Like I’d love a good sea shanty, I want the gusto of those guys at that British pub singing truly madly deeply
Despite the downfall of Mars Hill Church. Their record label had a lot of great bands that kinda have the tone you’re looking for. Kings Kaleidoscope, The Sing Team, Citizen, etc
I'm not into the "Jesus is my boyfriend" worship music. As long as the lyrics are theologically correct and are simple enough for a large group to sing without training, then I'm good with it.
I do Bible study drawings and the LORD put one on my heart called the Pendulum. It shows this exact swing back and forth until people come to rest on the true Jesus.
We sing this song in my church all the time and I love it. The one thing that ppl may not like although it is in the Bible is the phrase "lover of my soul". Some men dont know what it means to feel loved and that hurts to say but it's obvious
Here is my hot take on the "romantic" sounding worship songs and the comments on them. I hear so much of "I don't want to hear a worship song that sounds like I'm singing to my wife / or woman singing to their husband. However as the BRIDE OF CHRIST, the whole purpose for romantic relationships is to ILLUSTRATE God's love for us. So I'll turn the tables on the question and say that without the illustration of the Godhead and His relationship with humanity, your romantic relationship and romance itself is WORTHLESS!!
@cm5394 I don’t think you read their comment correctly. They never said that the relationship of Christ and the church was based on romance. they said that the romantic relationship between a husband and wife is based on Christ and the church. And now you’re saying romance is a bonus for married couples. So how does that automatically mean it’s not at all in the relationship between Christ and the church? You would need to define romance to begin with. And lastly the sentence “romance is just a bonus because a relationship isn’t based on romance” doesn’t make much sense logically.
@cm5394 Yes it is. Yes it absolutely is. The Bible is a divine romance in the holiest sense. I would strongly challenge you to give me a Biblical basis for your statement that the relationship between Christ and the church isn't romantic. Romantic means: "a feeling of excitement and mystery associated with love." God declared in Genesis 2:18 "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper as his counterpart" after modelling Adam after Himself in His own image and likeness, making this statement indicative of His own desire for a counterpart, which is repeated throughout the Bible. God says in Jeremiah 2:2 "I remember concerning you the kindness of your youth, / The love of your bridal days, / When you followed after Me in the wilderness, / In a land that was not sown." Jeremiah 31:3 - "Indeed I have loved you with an eternal love; / Therefore I have drawn you with lovingkindness." Ezekiel 16:8 - "Then I passed by you and saw you; and then was your time a time of love. And I spread My skirt over you and covered your nakedness; indeed I swore unto you and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Lord Jehovah, and you became Mine." Is this not romance??? God made mankind for Himself so that out of mankind God would have a Bride as a counterpart that expresses Him. Out of Adam came His romantic counterpart, Eve, and out of Christ's pierced side came His romantic counterpart, the Church.
My wife and I grew up in the church but recently started reading the Bible to get to know God more. As a man, I sort of gravitate towards the authoritative approach that the Bible has. It’s like the word is the commander and I’m the soldier whose job is to follows orders. I like politics and leadership in the Bible, the conflict resolution, the obedience of the characters, and just how mighty God is. But my wife sees the gentleness, compassion, empathy and kindness of God as shown the word and I feel like the worship songs serve a similar purpose.
Why are we so concerned with what comes down to personal preference? Why do we need to spend so much time talking about our opinions? Is this really what God wants us to focus on?
It is the job of the songwriters and the performers to give the worshippers a means to worship with their spirit and in truth. If the music and lyrics do not do that, then they've failed. Worshippers aren't obligated to like all worship music. Song writers should not expect that either. I would think song writers of worship music would want to meet all sorts of different kinds of music preferences, because humans are different and have different preferences.Which many of the preferences are God given.
@@gregolson7499 True, but if the worship players are being led by the Holy Spirit, but the worshippers are caught up in opinions and judgement, is that the fault of the players? Are we not ALL called to surrender to God?
@@tlawhon Yes, the worshippers mindset is of course important too. Many times I have been at a service and my initial thought at a song was "here we go again. They are playing the same song they always play....... then I realize where my heart is and try to focus on the words regardless of my feelings of the song and then because of that, my choice to change my thinking, I get out of myself so to speak and focus on God and the worship. Also, sometimes I don't necessarily agree with the words of the song, so then I just try to focus on God and worship him my own way. In the end, it comes down to us and our hearts in how we worship.
I know that in the US, that's what hyper-masculinity means, but here in Argentina, if we would say "hypermasculino", we would refer to a man who's actually masculine and not just someone that has prejudice against women. In that sence, we could say "Cristo es hypermasculino" but meaning that there's no one more masculine than Him, that he's the standard for masculinity
So ur telling me that the idea that a man must be hyper masculine in order to be a “real man” is built into the regional Spanish dialect of Argentina? Incredible
Let's also remember that many modern worship songs are written by men. So its interesting to hear men complaining about them sounding feminine. I thinkost christian men struggle with the idea of being the bride of Christ. I get it, its hard to wrap your mind around (although im a woman). What's most important is the biblical accuracy of a worship song in my opinion......Also, David said he wanted to gaze upon the beauty of the Lord (Psalm 27:4) 🤷🏾♀️
Have to be honest that even as a woman there have been a few songs I've had to get rid of because they made me really uncomfortable. It felt like I was singing to a lover and not to Jesus. Listen to Forever Jones' Just the Way and you'll see what I mean. Sounds like a wedding song. Just weird
What is feminine about singing for Jesus. That is such a weird thing to be upset over. There is nothing in the Bible that says men must be stoic and cannot show emotion. Such a weird complaint.
Awesome take about masculinity! I’m tired of seeing all the aggressive redpill masculine trend on the internet. They all identify as Christians but often they can be rude, cruel and prideful
I wonder what about these songs sound like they are from a woman's point of view. The melody and pacing are one thing and word choices are another. Having a submissive posture in worship is expected. The church is the bride of Christ. Our best example of worship is the Psalms and if our issue is with word choice being too vulnerable or emotional then there are many Psalms that would hit the criteria of "from a woman's point of view". We just need to be clear about what specifically we are pushing back against.
Yeah and everyone definitely has a preference just want to make sure our preference doesn't discredit other forms of legitimate worship that is pleasing to God.@@janelleg597
We commanded to love God with all our being which includes our spirit and soul( the seat of all our desires,feelings,emotions and thoughts)…..so I’m happy to be spiritual and emotional towards my God Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
@@AWDTH1111 Being a man. Doing the right thing especially when its the hard thing. Teaching stoicism and not caving to emotional impulses. Teaching honor and respect. Teaching motivation, inspiration, discipline and passion. Are you lacking these things?
Aren’t a lot of hymns love songs?? We so sensitive in today’s world. Preference over worship style should not be a conversation. Imagine David being alive today. They would call him a simp or too soft
I actually have an opposite pet peeve 😅 in my language verbs have a different ending based on gender. I HATE when female worship leaders /singers sing the the worship song with the ending that doesn’t match their gender! 😅😂 for some reason most/all worship songs in Israel are being written with male verb ending. I think everyone should sing them according to their own gender 🤷🏻♀️
@@shen_876 In John 13:23, John (who calls himself the disciple that Jesus dearly loved) writes that he was beside Jesus and leaning his head on Jesus. Some translations even say John was resting his head on Jesus' bosom (or chest). It's not hard to imagine this being seen as feminine behaviour by many Chrisitan men today.
You are the Almighty God - Nikos Politis is a good example...if you ever want to hear 1/10th of what heaven's battle cry sounds like. The guy got the song from a dream he had.
This discussion is making me very grateful for my Orthodox Church! Nobody has to worry about what songs to select. They were all picked out centuries ago!
I love hymns and honestly, a lot of hymns are love songs. There are are lot of great mordern day worship music that sound like mordern day up beat hymns. If you don't listen to a lot of worship, you wouldn't really know. Plus a lot of worship music is written by men. Maybe those men should hum and march war songs in their battle sandals in church.
I mean I get the concern, but if the scriptures are going to describe the church as “the bride” and Jesus as the “groom” ready to receive the bride, isn’t that kind of begging for the outcome that is these “effeminate” or “love letter” worship songs?
@@sakamotosan1887 My point is the language that's used in these worship songs, that the guy in this video considers "effeminate", comes from the Bible. It's a question of what our understanding of Biblical language is and how we should or shouldn't apply it. That's not irrelevant at all.
As a kid, I thought many of the "old hymns", the southern Baptist hymnal songs, weren't masculine. Looking at it now, there was a reason for this. As men, we have a problem: loving our Savior and king isn't explained very well in scripture; loving Jesus as God is far easier to understand than loving Jesus the man. Fully God and fully man is a mystery and loving Jesus has to be a work of the Holy Spirit.
I think that there are plenty of “masculine” sounding worship songs out there if you looked for them. But getting lost in the internets obsession with hyper-masculinity has caused some to get lost in the weeds and focus more on their own appearance rather than loving on God.
About the song: when you said “fluffy” I was like yea exactly! but I feel like the melody has a Disney princess vibe going for it. I think the criticism towards worship music today is valid. But I also think that a lot of today’s music needs to increase the bpm (speed). But worship music should have scripture or scripture based lyrics. The “you are mine”, “my boyfriend” lyrics just don’t do it. Like others have said, they lack theological richness. So it’s like.. why are we singing these types of songs if that’s the case..my 2 cents 🤷🏾♂️.
I've been saying this for a while as well. I have served on worship for many years and I've told the leader to pick a different song before (respectfully of course). A few songs even have lyrics that are (unintentionally I believe) sexually suggestive lines like "have your way with me" or "do whatever you want to". I don't believe that Song of Solomon is our model for our relationship with God but many churches seem to have adopted that book and the bride imagery as their model.
Pastor Armen needs to talk to Bob Kauflin and other SGM writers if he feels that way as he couldn't be further from the truth. SovGrace is one of the few popular Christian Music Ministries that rarely if ever falls into effeminate/feels based worship music, which is very unlike Hillsong, Elevation, etc.. There's nothing more masculine that singing to Jesus with a bunch of other dudes
Sing the songs in the Book of Revelation chapters 4, 5 and 7...... that's what the heavenly host sing (and are singing) in worship to God....Problem solved.
Also the "cursive" singing some worship leaders do when they intentionally mispronounce vowel sounds, most especially "Goid" for "God" and "Jee zehz" for "Jesus". I consider that style to be associated with Indy style female vocalists. Not appropriate for a male worship leader plus you can't sing along.
Appreciate the conversation R! Question- regarding man and women roles within the home. I agree that scripture doesn’t say women are the cook in the home. But here is my question. If a man who is out working 8 plus hours a day and comes home wanting a cooked meal and the wife doesn’t want to for whatever the reason is is that the same? Let me ask it this way. If a loving husband asks his wife to cook and she doesn’t want to is that ok? I’ll be honest I don’t think we can say for certain because it comes down to the motive of the heart. But if we don’t have this as a part of the conversation I just feel like the blanket statement of the Bible doesn’t give specific roles in the home it leaves it open for men and women to not inspect their motives for their roles. Hopefully that makes sense.
This may be a reason why I've grown bored of worship songs. Most worship songs are about what God has done for us, identity in Christ and who he is to us- savior, provider, protector etc. Instead of other songs you don't hear a lot of that have more to do with Warfare like raise a hallelujah or Ain't No Grave. Stuff that revs up the fire of faith in your soul and gives you something to believe for rather than just kind of sing with more of a passive attitude like the others do
If you don't like it, don't listen to it, but don't knock the people who are writing songs from their heart that are pointing the millions of hearts from.Jesus. Hillsong United, Bethel, Kari Job, etc. are huge blessings to the church and the world.
I just played this song at church last week 😂 it’s honestly a great song, good solid gospel message. I don’t really know why the person would consider it feminine except perhaps because of the bridge where it addresses Jesus as „Lover of my soul“ but even that isn’t a phrase i would consider feminine
I think this brother has an accurate picture of biblical picture of men. Jesus stood in opposition to religious and government leaders for the sake of God. He also was a carpenter for two decades and went into the wilderness for 40 days. At times he washed the feet of others and deeply care for widows/orphans. Jesus was lion and lamb. It’s incredibly difficult to reflect his example but we should all aim for this as men.
Oh heck yea I agree...the bethel, hillsong, elevation all get on my last nerve. I'm a Skillet gal and love uplifting music. Sometimes I feel like I'm at a funeral with some of the songs just dragging through. Regarding Bethel, I've changed my mind about them, Randy Clark and the like after reading Counterfeit Kingdom.....
It's not just music, I hear people speak about Jesus and they teach him almost feminine. I know some of the people who do this and when we talk they've heard some preacher say what they're teaching and never went into the word to see him just repeate what someone said. I've done that before and that can lead to some bad images of him or bad theology. It can make him more us than us more him.
I do agree that a lot of modern worship music is just sappy and shallow, that's why I listen to Christian rock. Usually, it's a lot more deep, as well as in general sounding better (they usually use more than just 3 chords and the singers have actual talent). That being said, I do think it is pretty petty to make such a big deal about this kind of comparatively tame thing. Reject modern hypermasculinity, embrace traditional biblical masculinity.
I think a bit of both. Modern romance is a relatively new development with the idea of "true love" and "falling in love" and making sexual and marriage relationships primarily based on fickle emotions. I think when we are talking about worshipping "Jesus as boyfriend" it overemphasizes the (in my opinion) childish infatuation we see in modern romance. The beauty of the gospel is that I am saved, adopted and set free even if I am not feeling ooey gooey, warm and mushy all over. We tend to insert our own western notions of marital/dating love over the identification of the Church (not you as an individual) as the bride of Christ.
However, we do often ascribe to lovers in love songs things that sinful humans are entirely unable to provide (complete satisfaction, eternal bliss, purpose, etc)
I thought this was going to be about that "lay back against you and breathe" song. Man... that's severely uncomfortable for me. Someone countered once with "what about the disciple that leaned on Jesus' breast at the last supper?" Well, i would have been like "BRO... knock that off." 😀
Quick question, has no one actually ever read the psalms? 😅 y’all are acting like this is new. If you don’t wanna worship (which is should be done in a posture of submission, which y’all mistake for ‘feminine’ now, I guess) just say that
i don't believe in legalism nor cookie cutter stereotypes for what a man should be or woman should be. there has to be balance between the feminine and masculine with a divine inclination to follow Jesus. but on the real ima change the oil and worry about most of the more traditionally masculine tasks.
I've had this thought. Emo Love songs to Jesus are annoying. It is the South Park Episode in reality. I don't get that from the song they played. There is a trap that we respond to all songs in the way they are too feminine.
How about beginning to consider how God Himself wants yo be worshipped? Wouldn't it be better to stop thinking about your own personal preference on music and think about God's preference? Try listening to some Gregorian chants, like Pange Lingua?
@albinosh4dow I'm not making a claim to know His preference. Rather, I'm hoping you will consider not your own interest. The music this video criticizes it does so because it is centered on the self, on the person. In contrast, Gregorian chant is God Focused, and because it is focused on Him, His goodness and beauty, it therefore glorifies God, and not ourselves. That is pleasing to God.
“Sola scriptura does not mean everything is explicitly stated in scripture” and then, “the particular roles of men and women are not explicitly stated in scripture so we can justly ignore them.” You can’t have it both ways.
I would recommend the book 'It's good to be a man' by Michael Foster. Overall, great book on biblical masculinity. Also, if you can listen to Doug Wilson from a healthy perspective and not be sensitive with how he uses somewhat hyperbolic statements to get his point across, you can grow a lot in your biblical masculinity in a very practical, every day, way. And yes, there's tons of effeminate music and it's killing the church because it's rejecting the men. If the men don't feel like they have a place then we should not be surprised that male leadership is lacking. Music is just one piece of the problem though.
To me that song you played was boring. Many worship songs I hear are boring and don't move me to anything. It doesn't hold a candle to songs like How Great Thou Art.
@AWDTH1111 but isn't it just that what we are arguing against? Those songs are full of sentimentality and fluff, and nostalgia which in the end just leave you feeling empty, even a song as great as how great thou art- it's not timeless because it is nostalgic. Songs and music that are truly meant to worship God and not worship our tastes in music will always need to be timeless.
@cristinamz2137 that is your opinion, or should I say, preference, of the song, which to me is fine. I have a different point of view of it. The writer of How Great Thou Art is acknowledging the things around him which leads him to cry out "How Great Thou Art." Which then leads him to ponder Christ's sacrifice on the cross and his eventual return. How is that not a timeless message. I will also grant that it is nostalgic for me because I remember it so clearly hearing that song at my Father's funeral when I was 7 years old. It reminds me that I may, one day, have the privilege of seeing my father again
That's what happens when you turn away from hymns. If you castigated what came prior when men of old built the church, what right does any man have to complain about modern music When a society is masculine there is a great reverence for the gray-headed and for tradition and things of old. Feminine societies worship youth, beauty, and feelings and experience
W/ respect and no direct offense intended but isnt a white christian rapper perhaps not being effeminate per se but is displaying some type of weakness in trying to be black when they're not. Black ppl accept eminem i suppose but confusion could be considered a type of weakness & thereby in a sense effeminate. But on its effectiveness, I dont think a white christian rapper or any christian rapper is winning many drake fans for example but mainly just entertaining an already christian audience and if im wrong id like to see some data supporting the contrary. I think this rapper above clearly profited from rapping for jesus as im sure the guy lucre did as well but how many real converts?
Facts. And Ruslan is very godly but many rappers trying to pass as Christian are not. Theres teo ditches between corny and ungodly, and most Christian rappers fall into one of them.
@@tuckerchisholm1005 But think of how many white rappers there are? It's an epidemic and will they enter their 40s and 50's still saying yo n wiaallin' out and wearing hoodies and do-rags? I suppose so; i guess eminem will. But I would like to see some stats on their effectiveness or some testimonies of some kind. Im sure ruslan likely has them. He does seem far more godly than most but im largely ignorant of the subject admittedly
I listen to hebrew worship songs. Often made by non believing jews. They just sound more masculine and biblical. Because modern pop worship songs sound weak and yeah, so feminine
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I have no problem with how worship songs should be made. I think Christian men often fall into the trap of stoicism which leads into pride. In my old life I've bashed people, was a drug dealer, rapper, power lifter, fighter - all the things people label as 'masculine'. But after finding Christ, and falling in love with him, I bump Oceans, Sinking Deep, and What a beautiful Name ALL THE TIME. Hate on me. Mathew 5:5 calls us to be meek, and meek implies a gentleness, or atleast in the original greek translation, power under control. A guy in prison last year told me "I used to think Christians were pussies, but they're actually strong people. It takes true strength to say no to crime, money and shit". That's what makes a REAL masculine man, his capacity to say no to sin for the sake of loving Christ.
I agree and I feel like a lot of hyper masculine men overcompensate out of FEAR. Which isn't masculine at all. Be who God called you to be, be bold, be strong and lead and live with loving kindness and SENSITIVITY to the Spirit of God, instead of acting like a child and "pretending to be strong" while using the world's example of strength as a template.
Idk I'll take a Gregorian chant/hymn or a Byzantine version any day over most of the modern stuff.
Thank you for sharing this. It really got me when you brought up the prisoners' personal perspective.. Saying to sin is true masculinity. As a dad with a daughter, I feel a tremendous sense of responsibility to represent to my daughter what it means to be a man in the way jesus christ wants me to be. 🙏 thanks
@@KillerofGods okay “killerofgods” lol
@@AWDTH1111 Just a gamer tag I've had since middle school. I like'd to think of it as the killer of false gods. So I keep it around.
There's also some really nice chants in Arabic in the Byzantine fashion.
As a worship leader, I honestly believe that some of the critiques against modern worship songs are purely preferential. Not all labeled "emo" worship songs are "Jesus is my boyfriend" stuff. Some of it are theologically accurate in terms of revealing the patient, merciful, loving, forgiving character of our Father in heaven. And speaking of "emo" songs, King David wrote a lot of emotional Psalms, so there's that.
I understand that choosing the right songs for a congregational worship is essential. And though I won't judge those who choose to be firm and stoic during corporate worship, please don't belittle others who wanted to be vulnerable in the presence of the King and Creator!
Well said
Thank you
Yes!!!
Very well said!
So true. It’s preference. You don’t like it? Find something else. But don’t crap on the way someone else worships and praises. That’s crazy.
As a woman I wish we sang more victory songs. Like I’d love a good sea shanty, I want the gusto of those guys at that British pub singing truly madly deeply
Amen sister!! Fanny Crosby wrote some awesome hymns that had great words and music.
Mason Clovers song el shaddai
Despite the downfall of Mars Hill Church. Their record label had a lot of great bands that kinda have the tone you’re looking for. Kings Kaleidoscope, The Sing Team, Citizen, etc
3/4 time signature, here we go!
I'm not into the "Jesus is my boyfriend" worship music. As long as the lyrics are theologically correct and are simple enough for a large group to sing without training, then I'm good with it.
Jesus is my boyfriend looks Dylan he talked before to me…
I do Bible study drawings and the LORD put one on my heart called the Pendulum. It shows this exact swing back and forth until people come to rest on the true Jesus.
We sing this song in my church all the time and I love it. The one thing that ppl may not like although it is in the Bible is the phrase "lover of my soul". Some men dont know what it means to feel loved and that hurts to say but it's obvious
Here is my hot take on the "romantic" sounding worship songs and the comments on them. I hear so much of "I don't want to hear a worship song that sounds like I'm singing to my wife / or woman singing to their husband. However as the BRIDE OF CHRIST, the whole purpose for romantic relationships is to ILLUSTRATE God's love for us. So I'll turn the tables on the question and say that without the illustration of the Godhead and His relationship with humanity, your romantic relationship and romance itself is WORTHLESS!!
Yes! Say it louder for the people in the back!! 🙌
I had this same exact thought!
@cm5394 I don’t think you read their comment correctly. They never said that the relationship of Christ and the church was based on romance. they said that the romantic relationship between a husband and wife is based on Christ and the church. And now you’re saying romance is a bonus for married couples. So how does that automatically mean it’s not at all in the relationship between Christ and the church? You would need to define romance to begin with. And lastly the sentence “romance is just a bonus because a relationship isn’t based on romance” doesn’t make much sense logically.
@cm5394romance is a part of love
@cm5394 Yes it is. Yes it absolutely is. The Bible is a divine romance in the holiest sense. I would strongly challenge you to give me a Biblical basis for your statement that the relationship between Christ and the church isn't romantic. Romantic means: "a feeling of excitement and mystery associated with love." God declared in Genesis 2:18 "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper as his counterpart" after modelling Adam after Himself in His own image and likeness, making this statement indicative of His own desire for a counterpart, which is repeated throughout the Bible.
God says in Jeremiah 2:2 "I remember concerning you the kindness of your youth, / The love of your bridal days, / When you followed after Me in the wilderness, / In a land that was not sown." Jeremiah 31:3 - "Indeed I have loved you with an eternal love; / Therefore I have drawn you with lovingkindness." Ezekiel 16:8 - "Then I passed by you and saw you; and then was your time a time of love. And I spread My skirt over you and covered your nakedness; indeed I swore unto you and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Lord Jehovah, and you became Mine."
Is this not romance???
God made mankind for Himself so that out of mankind God would have a Bride as a counterpart that expresses Him. Out of Adam came His romantic counterpart, Eve, and out of Christ's pierced side came His romantic counterpart, the Church.
Jesus thank you is one of the most theologically rich songs you will find
My wife and I grew up in the church but recently started reading the Bible to get to know God more. As a man, I sort of gravitate towards the authoritative approach that the Bible has. It’s like the word is the commander and I’m the soldier whose job is to follows orders. I like politics and leadership in the Bible, the conflict resolution, the obedience of the characters, and just how mighty God is.
But my wife sees the gentleness, compassion, empathy and kindness of God as shown the word and I feel like the worship songs serve a similar purpose.
Why are we so concerned with what comes down to personal preference? Why do we need to spend so much time talking about our opinions? Is this really what God wants us to focus on?
It is the job of the songwriters and the performers to give the worshippers a means to worship with their spirit and in truth. If the music and lyrics do not do that, then they've failed. Worshippers aren't obligated to like all worship music. Song writers should not expect that either. I would think song writers of worship music would want to meet all sorts of different kinds of music preferences, because humans are different and have different preferences.Which many of the preferences are God given.
@@gregolson7499 True, but if the worship players are being led by the Holy Spirit, but the worshippers are caught up in opinions and judgement, is that the fault of the players? Are we not ALL called to surrender to God?
@@tlawhon Yes, the worshippers mindset is of course important too. Many times I have been at a service and my initial thought at a song was "here we go again. They are playing the same song they always play....... then I realize where my heart is and try to focus on the words regardless of my feelings of the song and then because of that, my choice to change my thinking, I get out of myself so to speak and focus on God and the worship. Also, sometimes I don't necessarily agree with the words of the song, so then I just try to focus on God and worship him my own way. In the end, it comes down to us and our hearts in how we worship.
If this guy is criticizing Sovereign Grace Music for being too feminine, then they are definitely reaching for something that is not there
I know that in the US, that's what hyper-masculinity means, but here in Argentina, if we would say "hypermasculino", we would refer to a man who's actually masculine and not just someone that has prejudice against women. In that sence, we could say "Cristo es hypermasculino" but meaning that there's no one more masculine than Him, that he's the standard for masculinity
Woah, that's good 🔥🔥
So ur telling me that the idea that a man must be hyper masculine in order to be a “real man” is built into the regional Spanish dialect of Argentina? Incredible
Hyper-masculine doesn't mean you're prejudiced against women, in any context.
I love cooking. I worked in enough restaurants that to me, its nostalgic and a fun challenge/task. Guys should cook
Let's also remember that many modern worship songs are written by men. So its interesting to hear men complaining about them sounding feminine.
I thinkost christian men struggle with the idea of being the bride of Christ. I get it, its hard to wrap your mind around (although im a woman). What's most important is the biblical accuracy of a worship song in my opinion......Also, David said he wanted to gaze upon the beauty of the Lord (Psalm 27:4) 🤷🏾♀️
You know people have gone too far when the Bible is too feminine for their tastes.
@@victorheras5882 I agree
Have to be honest that even as a woman there have been a few songs I've had to get rid of because they made me really uncomfortable. It felt like I was singing to a lover and not to Jesus. Listen to Forever Jones' Just the Way and you'll see what I mean. Sounds like a wedding song. Just weird
What is feminine about singing for Jesus. That is such a weird thing to be upset over. There is nothing in the Bible that says men must be stoic and cannot show emotion. Such a weird complaint.
Awesome take about masculinity! I’m tired of seeing all the aggressive redpill masculine trend on the internet. They all identify as Christians but often they can be rude, cruel and prideful
Are we seriously saying they are not worshiping right!?!?! Yes this is going too far.
Too.
@@LovesChild316 anything else?
@@ThePennySavers insecure people like to correct others to feel some sense of superiority over others lol
I think a lot of worship songs sound from a woman's point of view
I wonder what about these songs sound like they are from a woman's point of view. The melody and pacing are one thing and word choices are another. Having a submissive posture in worship is expected. The church is the bride of Christ. Our best example of worship is the Psalms and if our issue is with word choice being too vulnerable or emotional then there are many Psalms that would hit the criteria of "from a woman's point of view". We just need to be clear about what specifically we are pushing back against.
I can see that. Maybe hymns are more your thing?
Yeah and everyone definitely has a preference just want to make sure our preference doesn't discredit other forms of legitimate worship that is pleasing to God.@@janelleg597
How so, I don't see that at all?
@@quantaviousjenkins7667
By the words in the songs
We commanded to love God with all our being which includes our spirit and soul( the seat of all our desires,feelings,emotions and thoughts)…..so I’m happy to be spiritual and emotional towards my God
Mark 12:30
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Masculinity should be encouraged in my opinion.
I also am the primary income and cook every night.
God is great.
Define masculinity
@@AWDTH1111 Being a man. Doing the right thing especially when its the hard thing. Teaching stoicism and not caving to emotional impulses. Teaching honor and respect. Teaching motivation, inspiration, discipline and passion. Are you lacking these things?
@@AWDTH1111 What do you propose? How do you define masculinity, or did you just come to be a contrarian and argue because you are offended?
Aren’t a lot of hymns love songs??
We so sensitive in today’s world.
Preference over worship style should not be a conversation. Imagine David being alive today. They would call him a simp or too soft
I actually have an opposite pet peeve 😅 in my language verbs have a different ending based on gender. I HATE when female worship leaders /singers sing the the worship song with the ending that doesn’t match their gender! 😅😂 for some reason most/all worship songs in Israel are being written with male verb ending. I think everyone should sing them according to their own gender 🤷🏻♀️
In the modern world Jesus and His disciples would've been considered effeminate at times. It's mostly subjective.
Could you elaborate on this?
@@shen_876 In John 13:23, John (who calls himself the disciple that Jesus dearly loved) writes that he was beside Jesus and leaning his head on Jesus. Some translations even say John was resting his head on Jesus' bosom (or chest). It's not hard to imagine this being seen as feminine behaviour by many Chrisitan men today.
@@yblackieHe also asked jesus if he could call fire down on people.
@@gregolson7499 Is calling fire down from heaven on people masculine or feminine?
You wild bro, if anything they would think thier mean and ruthless not effeminate.
Stated listening to justice on hidden hills music 🎶 I grew up with rap and love it.
Lately, my favorite songs about God is from secular artists. The Cross by Prince is 🔥 🔥🔥. Lenny Kravitz has some great God centered songs also.
So what are masculine Christian songs? Onward Christian soldiers?
O Church Arise is good
Best comment ever!!!
This is the best comment. 😅😅
You are the Almighty God - Nikos Politis is a good example...if you ever want to hear 1/10th of what heaven's battle cry sounds like. The guy got the song from a dream he had.
Bro we need to take worship back to knights Templar style chants. Glad you brought attention to this
This discussion is making me very grateful for my Orthodox Church! Nobody has to worry about what songs to select. They were all picked out centuries ago!
Can we bring back knights Templar fashion and swords back too then? Instead of these stupid Monkey suits and wimpy little guns lol
@@AWDTH1111 how did we go from worship songs to attire and weapons technology. Im sure you can if you want, go ahead and break the ice for us
I love hymns and honestly, a lot of hymns are love songs. There are are lot of great mordern day worship music that sound like mordern day up beat hymns. If you don't listen to a lot of worship, you wouldn't really know. Plus a lot of worship music is written by men.
Maybe those men should hum and march war songs in their battle sandals in church.
I mean I get the concern, but if the scriptures are going to describe the church as “the bride” and Jesus as the “groom” ready to receive the bride, isn’t that kind of begging for the outcome that is these “effeminate” or “love letter” worship songs?
irrelevant if it pushes young men away from Christianity entirely. saying "too bad, this is how it is" is not going to endear anyone to your cause.
@@sakamotosan1887
My point is the language that's used in these worship songs, that the guy in this video considers "effeminate", comes from the Bible. It's a question of what our understanding of Biblical language is and how we should or shouldn't apply it.
That's not irrelevant at all.
I agree about the effeminate vibe. Thank God for theologically rich, gospel focused hymns
As a kid, I thought many of the "old hymns", the southern Baptist hymnal songs, weren't masculine. Looking at it now, there was a reason for this.
As men, we have a problem: loving our Savior and king isn't explained very well in scripture; loving Jesus as God is far easier to understand than loving Jesus the man. Fully God and fully man is a mystery and loving Jesus has to be a work of the Holy Spirit.
I think that there are plenty of “masculine” sounding worship songs out there if you looked for them. But getting lost in the internets obsession with hyper-masculinity has caused some to get lost in the weeds and focus more on their own appearance rather than loving on God.
Gavin is such a solid dude and a true man of God led by the Spirit. If you haven't seen his stuff, you should check him out.
Gavin Ortlund is a great teacher of the Word!
About the song: when you said “fluffy” I was like yea exactly! but I feel like the melody has a Disney princess vibe going for it.
I think the criticism towards worship music today is valid. But I also think that a lot of today’s music needs to increase the bpm (speed). But worship music should have scripture or scripture based lyrics. The “you are mine”, “my boyfriend” lyrics just don’t do it. Like others have said, they lack theological richness. So it’s like.. why are we singing these types of songs if that’s the case..my 2 cents 🤷🏾♂️.
In my experience, most of the evangelical experience panders to women. Hyper-masculinity as an over-correction is a real danger, though.
Orthodoxy is what is needed.
I think we need to remember who we’re praising and humble ourselves.
I've been saying this for a while as well. I have served on worship for many years and I've told the leader to pick a different song before (respectfully of course). A few songs even have lyrics that are (unintentionally I believe) sexually suggestive lines like "have your way with me" or "do whatever you want to". I don't believe that Song of Solomon is our model for our relationship with God but many churches seem to have adopted that book and the bride imagery as their model.
Song of Solomon is a representation of Christ's love for His Church not just the desire a husband and a wife have for each other in a marriage.
Feel this lately
Pastor Armen needs to talk to Bob Kauflin and other SGM writers if he feels that way as he couldn't be further from the truth. SovGrace is one of the few popular Christian Music Ministries that rarely if ever falls into effeminate/feels based worship music, which is very unlike Hillsong, Elevation, etc.. There's nothing more masculine that singing to Jesus with a bunch of other dudes
Glad I'm not the only one! I'm tempted every Sunday to show up late 'cause I can't stand the songs!
Sing the songs in the Book of Revelation chapters 4, 5 and 7...... that's what the heavenly host sing (and are singing) in worship to God....Problem solved.
Also the "cursive" singing some worship leaders do when they intentionally mispronounce vowel sounds, most especially "Goid" for "God" and "Jee zehz" for "Jesus". I consider that style to be associated with Indy style female vocalists. Not appropriate for a male worship leader plus you can't sing along.
Appreciate the conversation R! Question- regarding man and women roles within the home. I agree that scripture doesn’t say women are the cook in the home. But here is my question. If a man who is out working 8 plus hours a day and comes home wanting a cooked meal and the wife doesn’t want to for whatever the reason is is that the same? Let me ask it this way. If a loving husband asks his wife to cook and she doesn’t want to is that ok? I’ll be honest I don’t think we can say for certain because it comes down to the motive of the heart. But if we don’t have this as a part of the conversation I just feel like the blanket statement of the Bible doesn’t give specific roles in the home it leaves it open for men and women to not inspect their motives for their roles. Hopefully that makes sense.
This may be a reason why I've grown bored of worship songs. Most worship songs are about what God has done for us, identity in Christ and who he is to us- savior, provider, protector etc.
Instead of other songs you don't hear a lot of that have more to do with Warfare like raise a hallelujah or Ain't No Grave. Stuff that revs up the fire of faith in your soul and gives you something to believe for rather than just kind of sing with more of a passive attitude like the others do
imagine opening worship with some trumpets
If you don't like it, don't listen to it, but don't knock the people who are writing songs from their heart that are pointing the millions of hearts from.Jesus. Hillsong United, Bethel, Kari Job, etc. are huge blessings to the church and the world.
I just played this song at church last week 😂 it’s honestly a great song, good solid gospel message. I don’t really know why the person would consider it feminine except perhaps because of the bridge where it addresses Jesus as „Lover of my soul“ but even that isn’t a phrase i would consider feminine
I would love more hype songs like: Rattle from elevation worship Steven furtic, during the Sunday worship setion.
I love that song
I think this brother has an accurate picture of biblical picture of men. Jesus stood in opposition to religious and government leaders for the sake of God. He also was a carpenter for two decades and went into the wilderness for 40 days. At times he washed the feet of others and deeply care for widows/orphans. Jesus was lion and lamb. It’s incredibly difficult to reflect his example but we should all aim for this as men.
Oh heck yea I agree...the bethel, hillsong, elevation all get on my last nerve. I'm a Skillet gal and love uplifting music. Sometimes I feel like I'm at a funeral with some of the songs just dragging through. Regarding Bethel, I've changed my mind about them, Randy Clark and the like after reading Counterfeit Kingdom.....
I find some of the big guys still have some good music and artists
It's not just music, I hear people speak about Jesus and they teach him almost feminine. I know some of the people who do this and when we talk they've heard some preacher say what they're teaching and never went into the word to see him just repeate what someone said. I've done that before and that can lead to some bad images of him or bad theology. It can make him more us than us more him.
I do agree that a lot of modern worship music is just sappy and shallow, that's why I listen to Christian rock. Usually, it's a lot more deep, as well as in general sounding better (they usually use more than just 3 chords and the singers have actual talent). That being said, I do think it is pretty petty to make such a big deal about this kind of comparatively tame thing.
Reject modern hypermasculinity, embrace traditional biblical masculinity.
it's not petty. the fact that this is a discussion shows that it's felt to be important by many people.
was it about Jay Dyer's comments?
🎵 "Jesus is my booooyfrieeeend ..." 🎶 🎶
Jay is gonna have a field day with this one.
It sounds hippy the guitar is what's doing this
Is the problem worship lyrics sounding like love songs, or love song lyrics sounding like worship?
I think a bit of both. Modern romance is a relatively new development with the idea of "true love" and "falling in love" and making sexual and marriage relationships primarily based on fickle emotions. I think when we are talking about worshipping "Jesus as boyfriend" it overemphasizes the (in my opinion) childish infatuation we see in modern romance. The beauty of the gospel is that I am saved, adopted and set free even if I am not feeling ooey gooey, warm and mushy all over. We tend to insert our own western notions of marital/dating love over the identification of the Church (not you as an individual) as the bride of Christ.
However, we do often ascribe to lovers in love songs things that sinful humans are entirely unable to provide (complete satisfaction, eternal bliss, purpose, etc)
is this because we called you red pill? props.
I thought this was going to be about that "lay back against you and breathe" song. Man... that's severely uncomfortable for me. Someone countered once with "what about the disciple that leaned on Jesus' breast at the last supper?" Well, i would have been like "BRO... knock that off." 😀
Remember that this is a calvinist discussion. Calvinists follow the regulative principle of (public) worship. You can't worship however you want.
One reason why, I suppose, I gravitate towards to white metal (Christian metal).
Quick question, has no one actually ever read the psalms? 😅 y’all are acting like this is new. If you don’t wanna worship (which is should be done in a posture of submission, which y’all mistake for ‘feminine’ now, I guess) just say that
Red pill hypermasculinity is infecting the church as a counter for fear of feminizing men.
All are one in the spirit there is no male or female, In our physical bodies there is masculine and feminine and not in the spirit.
Its the sytyle of music thats feminine. The lyrics matter much less. Its the style.
Agreed. It’s got a 70s folk vibe
How can a style of music be feminine??
@@djidjine5082 In the same way speech patterns and the way you dress can be masculine and feminine.
Aren’t men the ones writing most of the songs?
No offense, but this seems like a…um…acoustic guitar church issue.
Wink wink nudge nudge. I picked up what you're putting down 😜
i don't believe in legalism nor cookie cutter stereotypes for what a man should be or woman should be. there has to be balance between the feminine and masculine with a divine inclination to follow Jesus. but on the real ima change the oil and worry about most of the more traditionally masculine tasks.
👏🔥🔥
I've had this thought. Emo Love songs to Jesus are annoying. It is the South Park Episode in reality.
I don't get that from the song they played. There is a trap that we respond to all songs in the way they are too feminine.
That's why Ye's Jesus music was dope... 😅
The key of that song lends itself to the female voice. You need to sing much higher notes. Strange choice for a men’s conference
How about beginning to consider how God Himself wants yo be worshipped? Wouldn't it be better to stop thinking about your own personal preference on music and think about God's preference?
Try listening to some Gregorian chants, like Pange Lingua?
How do you know that’s God’s preference?
@albinosh4dow I'm not making a claim to know His preference. Rather, I'm hoping you will consider not your own interest. The music this video criticizes it does so because it is centered on the self, on the person. In contrast, Gregorian chant is God Focused, and because it is focused on Him, His goodness and beauty, it therefore glorifies God, and not ourselves. That is pleasing to God.
Jay dyer response?
The church is to be led by men.
Masculinity is needed.
The music is too soft.
We need to go back to sea shanties.
Sad you don’t have revelation of the bridal first love of Jesus, men would benefit. Those who know, know
What the heck? You can't have the word 'suicide' on your video. What in the world?????????? This is so 1984.
“Sola scriptura does not mean everything is explicitly stated in scripture” and then, “the particular roles of men and women are not explicitly stated in scripture so we can justly ignore them.” You can’t have it both ways.
I'd prefer all worship songs to be more masculine, like if the worship was more akin to Nordic Folk Music I'd go to church every week.
I would recommend the book 'It's good to be a man' by Michael Foster. Overall, great book on biblical masculinity. Also, if you can listen to Doug Wilson from a healthy perspective and not be sensitive with how he uses somewhat hyperbolic statements to get his point across, you can grow a lot in your biblical masculinity in a very practical, every day, way.
And yes, there's tons of effeminate music and it's killing the church because it's rejecting the men. If the men don't feel like they have a place then we should not be surprised that male leadership is lacking. Music is just one piece of the problem though.
Fellas, it is gay to sing "Thank you" to Jesus?
To me that song you played was boring. Many worship songs I hear are boring and don't move me to anything. It doesn't hold a candle to songs like How Great Thou Art.
Try Pange Lingua gregorian chant.
How Great Thou Art has nostalgia to give it a lot of power.
@AWDTH1111 but isn't it just that what we are arguing against? Those songs are full of sentimentality and fluff, and nostalgia which in the end just leave you feeling empty, even a song as great as how great thou art- it's not timeless because it is nostalgic. Songs and music that are truly meant to worship God and not worship our tastes in music will always need to be timeless.
@cristinamz2137 that is your opinion, or should I say, preference, of the song, which to me is fine. I have a different point of view of it. The writer of How Great Thou Art is acknowledging the things around him which leads him to cry out "How Great Thou Art." Which then leads him to ponder Christ's sacrifice on the cross and his eventual return. How is that not a timeless message. I will also grant that it is nostalgic for me because I remember it so clearly hearing that song at my Father's funeral when I was 7 years old. It reminds me that I may, one day, have the privilege of seeing my father again
Well technically we the church is the BRIDE of Christ, so I don't think this should be an issue.
"your feelings are invalid because my opinion is more right. suck it up and accept the feminine music!"
"your feelings are invalid because my opinion is more right. suck it up and accept the feminine music!"
I call it “warship” music.
That's what happens when you turn away from hymns.
If you castigated what came prior when men of old built the church, what right does any man have to complain about modern music
When a society is masculine there is a great reverence for the gray-headed and for tradition and things of old. Feminine societies worship youth, beauty, and feelings and experience
This is petty
W/ respect and no direct offense intended but isnt a white christian rapper perhaps not being effeminate per se but is displaying some type of weakness in trying to be black when they're not. Black ppl accept eminem i suppose but confusion could be considered a type of weakness & thereby in a sense effeminate. But on its effectiveness, I dont think a white christian rapper or any christian rapper is winning many drake fans for example but mainly just entertaining an already christian audience and if im wrong id like to see some data supporting the contrary. I think this rapper above clearly profited from rapping for jesus as im sure the guy lucre did as well but how many real converts?
Facts. And Ruslan is very godly but many rappers trying to pass as Christian are not. Theres teo ditches between corny and ungodly, and most Christian rappers fall into one of them.
@@tuckerchisholm1005 But think of how many white rappers there are? It's an epidemic and will they enter their 40s and 50's still saying yo n wiaallin' out and wearing hoodies and do-rags? I suppose so; i guess eminem will. But I would like to see some stats on their effectiveness or some testimonies of some kind. Im sure ruslan likely has them. He does seem far more godly than most but im largely ignorant of the subject admittedly
I listen to hebrew worship songs. Often made by non believing jews.
They just sound more masculine and biblical.
Because modern pop worship songs sound weak and yeah, so feminine