Team B: here is the difference between the two Noob vs Pro - cut must be more difficult than the intended track - presents two clear choices, one easier and the other harder. - requires moderate level of skill Shortcut - branches off of a single, main path - is somewhat faster than the main route - reconnects with the main route, thus cutting the main path short (short-cut) Cheese - unintentional - reduces intended time significantly - stems from a flaw in the way that the track is built
Great definition setup! From those definitions, most of the cheese tracks are eiter Noob vs Pro or usually Shortcut tracks? kAN's latest was a Shortcut with a Cheese?
There definitely is a difference between noob v pro tracks and shortcut tracks. Noob v pro tracks usually have 2 distinct routes that are usually easy to tell apart, may be a tiny bit hidden but not so much where it needs extensive searching in photo mode but still have those 2 distinct routes/times, but shortcut tracks usually have incredibly hidden shortcuts that save a ton of time or skip the whole track entirely, and very few that have a bunch of shortcuts that save a tiny amount of time.
Yeah, Noob v Pro maps are usually "pick a track", and Cheese maps are usually more like dev exits in Mario Maker. I guess you could argue that the "noob" side is the secret, and the "pro" side is doing the track as intended in those cases? Then there are Speedrun Strats maps, which intentionally or not, include one or several smaller clips that may be difficult to execute or easier than the intended route, but are usually faster. Most Noob vs Pro maps don't have multiple diverges. The biggest factor, is that Noob vs Pro maps are clearly marked, while cheese/shortcut routes are usually either hidden, or not marked because they're unintentional. Noob vs Pro are upfront about it, while Cheese is about tricking the racers, and shortcuts are about pulling one over on the track builder. It's a mechanical puzzle vs a mind game.
@@LibertyMonk Noob v Pro maps are meant to have different techniques to complete. So 2 routes, but 1 route is much more normal route you'd fine. While the 'Pro' Route has you doing pro tricks, such as rail grinding, wall riding, and other 'Tricks' a new player wouldn't know exists or how to do. A Cheese/Secret is meant to be just that. Hidden secret CHEATS to get a faster time. It has nothing to do with SKILL, and only has to do with if you know it exists or not. What's more, it not the 'Intended' way to beat the fun, just a more fun way to cheat the map. No different than turning on God Mode in a FPS game. If you know how to do it, you can cheat, but you don't have to, and you can only do it if you know it exists. There is no fun, no challenge, no pro tricks involved, unless the secret is meant for pros in a pro map.
Noob and Pro are a measure difficulty. Shortcut is a measure of speed. I do sort of buy kAN's point about how finding the shortcut in hidden shortcuts can be a difficulty unto itself, but there's a conversation about skill in shortcut finding versus dumb luck. And it the broadest sense of "both are two route tracks", sure. But it's also clear how Noob v Pro and Shortcut are also distinct genres
There is skill in finding faster routes in open-ended tracks, or finding shortcuts the developer didn't think about, and even in finding hidden dev exits. But all of those skills are different from mechanical skill in doing a difficult trick on an intended primary route.
I was contemplating to show my opinion A or B, then C rolled around and my thoughts disintegrated into mush... The caveats for C seems steep, but let's hype the channel and anything is possible!
Some shortcuts have a similar feeling to Noob vs Pro, but the marking of "there are multiple intended paths with different skills" is a feature of Noob vs Pro and is the antithesis of most cheese routes and shortcuts. Trailblazing is a different skill from cheese-detection is a different skill from finding the line.
Idea: shortcut within a shortcut within a shortcut track. So in some videos with a secret shortcut, you usually wait until close to the end of the timer to use it. So, what if: Close to the start of the timer, you go through the "secret" shortcut, and get a much better time than the top spot. Of course people would notice, and start taking that secret route. So, when the timer is a few minutes away from over, you take the secret shortcut that's in the first secret shortcut, and of course similar stuff happens to when you take the first secret shortcut. Then, finally near the end when you usually take the secret shortcut, you take the secret shortcut within the 2nd secret shortcut within the 1st secret shortcut.
They are definitely different. noob vs pro makes it obvious, and has a similar time where you need to be good at the pro track to beat the noob track. Shortcuts are typically hidden so you can only do it if you run into every tree, etc, or if you get lucky, or if you already know. They typically don't rely upon skill, and you can easily beat the normal time by stumbling your way through the shortcut.
Okay, two track ideas: First: make a track with two cheeses. Make the first one hidden pretty well and the second one extremely well hidden. (Dont forget to turn off photomode) Use only the first shortcut and then say you had a problem with you recording software. In the second round you at some point use the second shortcut (that preferably starts later in the track) that gives you an even faster time. Idea two can work similarly. Just that you make an exact replica of the track but the second one has an extra shortcut. And third idea: two identical tracks but with different shortcuts. You swap them after the error and suddenly the shortcut from the firat track doesnt work anymore. (Dont block it off though, make the shortcut just either slower or put something in the way that will change the trajectory or something like that so its not that obvious)
Dapper inadvertently just does the "Noob vs Pro" maps but he just hides it somewhere with some of his cheese maps. Then there are the actual cheeses like the tunnels where you just ragdoll to the finish.
It was a fun video, and I know it didn't record the audio the first time, but it still would have been nice to see one normal run just to see the rest of the track!
Team B. They're similar, but they're cousins; not siblings. Noob v. Pro, you have a theme and a game engine to go about to create something functional enough to possibly compete against the pro. Shortcut tracks you can brute force, run into everything, follow the next schmuck in front of you, use global camera, keep trying tactics and even if you do find them it's not like something in Noob v. Pro. Finding a shortcut isn't quite the same as finding out about suspension glitching (the fact it exists rather than finding out how to make it or how it potentially works.) It's similar because you have someone with deeper knowledge challenging another who lacks that knowledge. Noob v. Pro is stuff that can actually translate into more of the game. Shortcuts will just have you more stressed out as you keep spending days running into walls for no reason. An example of this difference is like when you first brought kosmo and Dapper onto Noob v. Pro. They built what they thought would work based on what they IRL knew, turns out your knowledge of Scrap Mechanic gave you an edge of, "No you can only create steering if you use a bearing, which is the same bearing you use on wheels. Don't hook your engine up to your wheels until you've hooked it up to your seat. Collisions make things go jank." Practical information. Zeepkist, you can totally cheese a track by getting the angle just right with enough speed to bounce off a tree, into a checkpoint, and across a gap. Cool. That's information. Doesn't mean you can actually pull it off. And really the only way you could compare the two is if you had longer Noob v. Pro series if it was like Noob v. Pro (theme) where the videos keep on that theme until the noob beats the pro.
I think I like that shortcuts are becoming a bit like noob v pro, I like that the cuts are hidden and need finding out, but I like that they are difficult to complete adding an element of skill
two lovers forbidden from one another a war divides their people and a mountain divides them apart, build a path to be together. (Yeah I forgot the next couples of lines but then it goes) Secret tunnel, secret tunnel through the mountain secret, secret, secret, secret tunnel! oh yeah!
B: Shortcuts aren't always more difficult. Like when Dapper did that pixel perfect shortcut using the wall alignment. That shortcut was not pro in play, only in design🧀
Praise the cheese!!!!!! 🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀 \[T]/ 🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀 \[T]/ 🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀 Team B for the win! Cheese will allways cheese to be cheese. Else the cheese won't cheese, so cheese is cheese when cheese!
🧀 Dapper, you're definitely the least professional youtuber that I'll continue to give my time to because I just think you're that entertaining. I'd love it if we could go more than a few months between "I forgot to hit record" and "my equipment didn't work" videos, though. Maybe even write some scripts for your single-player videos sometime 🤷♂️ Until then, I'll see you on my suggested page, but not my subscribed page.
@NorthernBrick Yes. Please point out where you think I was joking or went too far. I enjoy the content most of the time, but it seems amateur. Not that there's anything wrong with being an amateur youtuber. I'm just not gonna subscribe.
@@brandonsattizahn4443 still worth subscribing. I'm not a fan of some of the other stuff he covers, but I'm always ready to watch a Zeepkist video from the gang and love the courses Dapper makes.
you should definitely Pretend to have not hit record and then secretly switch out the track when you have them do it again sometime that’d be sweet
That would be freaking genius! Someone *(cough* Yo, Dapper! *cough)* needs to do this!
That's dirty
I love this idea
Make it essentially the same track, looks the same at first, but the shortcuts are different. 😂🤭
Make the shortcut on the first track really hard then make the second track shortcut impossible
Team B: here is the difference between the two
Noob vs Pro
- cut must be more difficult than the intended track
- presents two clear choices, one easier and the other harder.
- requires moderate level of skill
Shortcut
- branches off of a single, main path
- is somewhat faster than the main route
- reconnects with the main route, thus cutting the main path short (short-cut)
Cheese
- unintentional
- reduces intended time significantly
- stems from a flaw in the way that the track is built
I agree with this definition. I feel like noob vs pro is a type of shortcut.
Great definition setup!
From those definitions, most of the cheese tracks are eiter Noob vs Pro or usually Shortcut tracks?
kAN's latest was a Shortcut with a Cheese?
highly accurate
True, especially when on some tracks the standard route is significantly more difficult and the shortcut was put in to bypass the difficulty.
There definitely is a difference between noob v pro tracks and shortcut tracks. Noob v pro tracks usually have 2 distinct routes that are usually easy to tell apart, may be a tiny bit hidden but not so much where it needs extensive searching in photo mode but still have those 2 distinct routes/times, but shortcut tracks usually have incredibly hidden shortcuts that save a ton of time or skip the whole track entirely, and very few that have a bunch of shortcuts that save a tiny amount of time.
Yeah, Noob v Pro maps are usually "pick a track", and Cheese maps are usually more like dev exits in Mario Maker. I guess you could argue that the "noob" side is the secret, and the "pro" side is doing the track as intended in those cases?
Then there are Speedrun Strats maps, which intentionally or not, include one or several smaller clips that may be difficult to execute or easier than the intended route, but are usually faster. Most Noob vs Pro maps don't have multiple diverges.
The biggest factor, is that Noob vs Pro maps are clearly marked, while cheese/shortcut routes are usually either hidden, or not marked because they're unintentional. Noob vs Pro are upfront about it, while Cheese is about tricking the racers, and shortcuts are about pulling one over on the track builder. It's a mechanical puzzle vs a mind game.
@@LibertyMonk Noob v Pro maps are meant to have different techniques to complete. So 2 routes, but 1 route is much more normal route you'd fine. While the 'Pro' Route has you doing pro tricks, such as rail grinding, wall riding, and other 'Tricks' a new player wouldn't know exists or how to do.
A Cheese/Secret is meant to be just that. Hidden secret CHEATS to get a faster time. It has nothing to do with SKILL, and only has to do with if you know it exists or not. What's more, it not the 'Intended' way to beat the fun, just a more fun way to cheat the map. No different than turning on God Mode in a FPS game. If you know how to do it, you can cheat, but you don't have to, and you can only do it if you know it exists. There is no fun, no challenge, no pro tricks involved, unless the secret is meant for pros in a pro map.
Noob and Pro are a measure difficulty.
Shortcut is a measure of speed.
I do sort of buy kAN's point about how finding the shortcut in hidden shortcuts can be a difficulty unto itself, but there's a conversation about skill in shortcut finding versus dumb luck. And it the broadest sense of "both are two route tracks", sure. But it's also clear how Noob v Pro and Shortcut are also distinct genres
There is skill in finding faster routes in open-ended tracks, or finding shortcuts the developer didn't think about, and even in finding hidden dev exits. But all of those skills are different from mechanical skill in doing a difficult trick on an intended primary route.
"what my friends don't know, I have a super secret shortcut" dapper be honest. They all know
Hell, the people who aren't even your friends know. Your friends just wonder "How many and how big."
"what my friends don't know, is where I have a super secret shortcut" is more acurate
Thanks again for including me! it was a blast!
100% Team B
Not every shortcut is pro strat. Especially with dapper tracks
yeah, but that just makes the non-cheese route the pro strat.
Especially when its an AFK shortcut
Team C!
🎶🎵SECRET TUNNEL!🎶🎵
SECRET TUNNEL! SECRET TUNNEL! THROUGH THE MOUNTAIN, SECRET TUNNEL!
🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀
glad i wasnt the only one to think this :P
I loved when Dapper said "It's logging time" and logged all over the place.
He made 300 Logillian Hypothetical Dollars with this video
truly one of the videos of all time
Thanks Kosmo for letting us know who that other voice in the call was.
I was contemplating to show my opinion A or B, then C rolled around and my thoughts disintegrated into mush...
The caveats for C seems steep, but let's hype the channel and anything is possible!
Team C!
Some shortcuts have a similar feeling to Noob vs Pro, but the marking of "there are multiple intended paths with different skills" is a feature of Noob vs Pro and is the antithesis of most cheese routes and shortcuts. Trailblazing is a different skill from cheese-detection is a different skill from finding the line.
Idea: shortcut within a shortcut within a shortcut track.
So in some videos with a secret shortcut, you usually wait until close to the end of the timer to use it. So, what if:
Close to the start of the timer, you go through the "secret" shortcut, and get a much better time than the top spot. Of course people would notice, and start taking that secret route. So, when the timer is a few minutes away from over, you take the secret shortcut that's in the first secret shortcut, and of course similar stuff happens to when you take the first secret shortcut. Then, finally near the end when you usually take the secret shortcut, you take the secret shortcut within the 2nd secret shortcut within the 1st secret shortcut.
That’s a really good idea! 😂
I was thinking that as well, good to see there are other great minds out there.
Today on Zeepkist, I built a forest track with trees. But WHAT MY FRIENDS DON'T KNOW is the trees are really just balls!
Secret tunnel!
Through the mountain
SEEEEEEECRET TUNNEEEEEELLL, SEEEEEEECRET TUNNEEEEEELLL!
🎶🎵Thru the mountain!🎶🎵
Secret secret secret Tunnelllll!
That tube was awesome, and hidden in plain sight. Great 🧀🧀🧀
🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀
Shortcuts don't always require pro skills to use them.
This cheese looks so awesome that it should be a standalone track that is visible to the player.
"I don't remember the rest of the lines so ahhh Secret tunnel, Secret tunnel... Through the mountains, secret secret secret tunnel yeah"
Secret tunnel. secret tunnel. Through the mountain. Secret tunnel.
Dapper "face reveal" should just be a picture of a cheese wheel with googly eyes on it 😜
They are definitely different.
noob vs pro makes it obvious, and has a similar time where you need to be good at the pro track to beat the noob track.
Shortcuts are typically hidden so you can only do it if you run into every tree, etc, or if you get lucky, or if you already know.
They typically don't rely upon skill, and you can easily beat the normal time by stumbling your way through the shortcut.
I love those shortcut vids, I like when they are talking about the shortcut and stuff
Okay, two track ideas:
First: make a track with two cheeses. Make the first one hidden pretty well and the second one extremely well hidden. (Dont forget to turn off photomode)
Use only the first shortcut and then say you had a problem with you recording software. In the second round you at some point use the second shortcut (that preferably starts later in the track) that gives you an even faster time.
Idea two can work similarly. Just that you make an exact replica of the track but the second one has an extra shortcut.
And third idea: two identical tracks but with different shortcuts. You swap them after the error and suddenly the shortcut from the firat track doesnt work anymore. (Dont block it off though, make the shortcut just either slower or put something in the way that will change the trajectory or something like that so its not that obvious)
Dapper inadvertently just does the "Noob vs Pro" maps but he just hides it somewhere with some of his cheese maps.
Then there are the actual cheeses like the tunnels where you just ragdoll to the finish.
It was a fun video, and I know it didn't record the audio the first time, but it still would have been nice to see one normal run just to see the rest of the track!
bro you sound exactly like that one minecraft youtuber Dream
Secret tunnel
Secret tunnel
Through the mountain
Secret, secret, secret, secret tunnel!
it would be only a doom track, or minecraft nether track
"Hi guys, I'm Dapper and I made a track, but what my friends don't know is that it doesn't have a super secret shortcut!"
Two questions: who's the fourth voice and what does the rest of the track look like?
1. TwoFace... 2. Get Zeepkist and find Dapper's track and play it and you'll see.
@@livedandletdie thanks for helpin :)
Definitely Team Cheese. Noob v Pro would be like kAN's skillshot tracks.
Team C.
Cheese's don't necessarily need skill to do, but skill shots do.
TUNNEL! Always love a good tunnel.
I love commenting 10 seconds after a video is posted, saying "great video!"
Almost did it for the meme!
fleshy lumps on a fleshy stiff thick stick penetrating the ground.
Team A, you have to be a pro to be looking for and utilizing shortcuts, even obvious ones don't pop-out to a true noob.
Pls never “say what my friends don’t know is that I hid a bunch of shortcuts everywhere” bc they already know there’s gonna be Atleast 1 shortcut 😂
Team B. They're similar, but they're cousins; not siblings. Noob v. Pro, you have a theme and a game engine to go about to create something functional enough to possibly compete against the pro. Shortcut tracks you can brute force, run into everything, follow the next schmuck in front of you, use global camera, keep trying tactics and even if you do find them it's not like something in Noob v. Pro. Finding a shortcut isn't quite the same as finding out about suspension glitching (the fact it exists rather than finding out how to make it or how it potentially works.)
It's similar because you have someone with deeper knowledge challenging another who lacks that knowledge. Noob v. Pro is stuff that can actually translate into more of the game. Shortcuts will just have you more stressed out as you keep spending days running into walls for no reason.
An example of this difference is like when you first brought kosmo and Dapper onto Noob v. Pro. They built what they thought would work based on what they IRL knew, turns out your knowledge of Scrap Mechanic gave you an edge of, "No you can only create steering if you use a bearing, which is the same bearing you use on wheels. Don't hook your engine up to your wheels until you've hooked it up to your seat. Collisions make things go jank." Practical information. Zeepkist, you can totally cheese a track by getting the angle just right with enough speed to bounce off a tree, into a checkpoint, and across a gap. Cool. That's information. Doesn't mean you can actually pull it off. And really the only way you could compare the two is if you had longer Noob v. Pro series if it was like Noob v. Pro (theme) where the videos keep on that theme until the noob beats the pro.
I think I like that shortcuts are becoming a bit like noob v pro, I like that the cuts are hidden and need finding out, but I like that they are difficult to complete adding an element of skill
Omg classic diaper secret tunnel track!
I believe this is how they got to Knothole in the old Sonic The Hedgehog show.
I am for Team D:
Dapper face reveal, BUT what we don't know is that he is wearing a gigantic cylinder hat, which covers his entire face :D
The adult humor is hilarious!
Team B.5 XD
Sometimes cheese can still require a lot of skill, but the exception does not make the rule XXDD
🧀Team Dapper! LET'S GO!🧀 I enjoyed this video, Dapper! 😂
yes i was waiting for another one
I feel bad for you in this one lmao, rest in zeeps man
2:54 same thing happened to me. just feels better to be not seen.
Sounds like there is someone different in the call.
Team 🧀 here. Noobs can find shortcuts just like pros, it's not strictly a still based thing
Noob v Pro are a subset of shortcut tracks. It's the square-rectangle rule.
🧀🧀🧀 ah yes cheese I found it in the fridge.
Cheese is life, hope you cheese for many years to come 🧀
secret tuuuunnel
seeecret tuuuuuuuuuneeeel
Live Cheese and Prosper! - The Cheesehovness witness :D
So wheres the original video? We're waiting!
This is amazing.
Second take is the after hours show 🤣
Team c! Team c! Team c!
agreed
lol it'd be funny if he made a track out of nothing but Cheese Cut paths. :)
S E C R E T T U N N E L !
🧀team c is for cheese!
You should make a shortcut inside a shortcut inside a shortcut
two lovers forbidden from one another a war divides their people and a mountain divides them apart, build a path to be together.
(Yeah I forgot the next couples of lines but then it goes)
Secret tunnel, secret tunnel through the mountain secret, secret, secret, secret tunnel! oh yeah!
Here's an idea for a theme: M. C. Escher.
🧀🧀🧀 Dapper makes the best gouda!
too bad we couldn`t see the confusion...
B: Shortcuts aren't always more difficult. Like when Dapper did that pixel perfect shortcut using the wall alignment. That shortcut was not pro in play, only in design🧀
Praise the cheese!!!!!!
🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀
\[T]/ 🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀 \[T]/
🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀🧀
Team B for the win! Cheese will allways cheese to be cheese. Else the cheese won't cheese, so cheese is cheese when cheese!
We didn't get to see you run the normal non-shortcut track.
🧀 There are noob vs pro tracks and shortcut tracks. There are tracks that are neither, one, or both. Some but not all shortcuts require skillz.
Team D... dapper foot reveal.
All Hail 🧀
Laser vision??? Warcans!!
I’m Team C. That’s to say that I vote for both the Dapper Face Reveal and for Dapper to post the original video.
a vote for dapper is a vote for the future
It looks like balls dapper 😳😳😳
Release the Dapper cut
🧀 (preferably Parmegano Regiano)
I love cheese!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So where is the original video? 📷📸
YOUR TREE STUN TUNLE SO REMIND ME OF MARIO should make amario base lv
My son loves your videos and wants his name on a marble. Please put AVERY on a marble in next video! Thank you ❤
I’m team b and c
Noob Pro Hacker maybe.
Team not A!
🧀 make more tracks 🧀
Team C. You can make hidden Pro shortcuts. 🧀
Who’s the fourth guy talking? Doesn’t sound like yannic.
It is i
Team Chez! 🧀🧀
Cheezes, can be pro, but they are also sometimes just basic, or dumb luck.
CHEESE!!! Team DAPPER!
Cheese🧀
Where the Team C group at though?
Dapper u should really do a face reveal
Who's the new voice?
cheese
Team D make the Trees pink
🧀 Dapper, you're definitely the least professional youtuber that I'll continue to give my time to because I just think you're that entertaining. I'd love it if we could go more than a few months between "I forgot to hit record" and "my equipment didn't work" videos, though. Maybe even write some scripts for your single-player videos sometime 🤷♂️
Until then, I'll see you on my suggested page, but not my subscribed page.
You being for real? Bruh
@NorthernBrick Yes. Please point out where you think I was joking or went too far.
I enjoy the content most of the time, but it seems amateur. Not that there's anything wrong with being an amateur youtuber. I'm just not gonna subscribe.
@@brandonsattizahn4443 still worth subscribing. I'm not a fan of some of the other stuff he covers, but I'm always ready to watch a Zeepkist video from the gang and love the courses Dapper makes.