Where Should YOU Be Putting The COLOR SPACE TRANSFORM In Your Color Grading Workflow?!
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- Опубликовано: 25 июл 2024
- When you're color grading LOG Footage, where is the best place to put your color space transform? At the start? At the end? In the middle? In this video, we'll take a look at some of the pros and cons to placing your CST in different places in your node graph!
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Table of Contents:
0:00 - Intro
0:35 - Project Settings and Housekeeping
1:38 - What Does A Color Space Transform Do?
5:05 - Understanding Nodes
7:19 - Grading Before And After The CST
11:25 - Why Put Nodes After The Color Space Transform?
16:39 - Color Grading Example
20:30 - Summary & Bonus
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I think it would have been better if it was explained what a color space. To the beginners that are reading this, Color Space is a, in simplest terms, is a space that holds the data in the video. The bigger the color space, the more data it can hold. If you put more data than it can handle, then the image will break producing banding etc. If you are thinking that you can just record in rec709 (very small color space) but edit in a bigger color space, then the image will still easily break because the data is already "baked-in" and the video would now be already limited to that colorspace in terms of how much data it can handle. That is why it's best to record in the biggest color space that your camera can record so you have the biggest leeway possible on post like Slog3 for Sony 10bit cameras. In relation to this, while it is not wrong, when you are now tweaking colors, it is very risky to grade in a rec709 space because it has a high chance that the grade will break. The reason for this is that rec709 is a very small color space, so you are basically limiting yourself by grading in this very limited color space. Yes, while it's true that some tools better react to rec709, starting from Davinci Resolve 17 up to the current version, majority of the tools are now color space aware so the reasons why you should grade in rec709 space is getting smaller. There are still tools that would react better to rec709 such as tracking and masking, but for the most part, in recent versions of Davinci its now color space aware so just grade in the biggest color space available like Davinci Intermediate then just switch to rec709 if the tool isn't behaving optimally
Another thing you may want to do after the CST - magic mask and tracking, which tend to perform better with a rec. 709 input.
Thanks a lot, everyone talks about color grading, best nodes map but no one really shares how it works and why? Best explanation, I finally got it after watching tons of tutorial videos.
Hey man, great video and thanks for keeping up with the community!
You are one of the few YTubers that I still follow and listen to because you have been faithful to your program and have always been sharing what is best and what can be good for us.
Never give up! Thanks again for the tutorial!
I have had somany confusions with CST and all of that has been answered in this single video!
Thanks a tonn Dunna! You are a life saver 🌟
I'm so proud of myself because I completely understand all the concepts explained here and my man, did you explain something rather complicated very clearly. Well done! And thank you very much.
Thank you Dunna, you really are putting up a color grading bible of sorts on RUclips. You and Darren Mostyn are doing something amazing. Thank you!
Discovering Color Space Transform was one of the best days of my life. Don’t tell my wife 😂
Haha 😂
Appreciate in-depth explanations and examples such as showing what happens with nodes after and before color space transform 💚
These videos are awesome Dunna. Thanks for taking the time to explain everything so well for us trying to work our way around the software. Keep them coming!
Thanks so much for saying that!
The best explanation I found! I have been struggling for so long with the LUTs. Thank you 😊
Magnificent tutorial! Really appreciate your step by step example to show kinda real life workflow!
This was one of the best Davinci Resolve tutorials I've honestly ever seen. Very succinct, great small tips along the bigger, more over-arching themes and useful. Expecting this to help my workflow a ton!
Dude, this is a FANTASTIC video - just the right amount of technical juice for someone who knows enough to get him/herself in trouble, combined with great explanation to help keep us out of said trouble. Thanks!
Thanks for saying that! Glad it’s helpful!
wow... this is exactly what i've been looking for quite some time, thanks man
Just finished the black magic courses and this is exactly what I needed, they dive into so many technical things that are great but don’t touch in things like this that I really needed, you are the goat🐐🐐🐐🐐🐐
Didn’t know how much I needed this video, so much great information here. I’ve doing it wrong, veery wrong, this whole time 🥲😅 Time to go back and grade some old footage!
Just finished my first project since switching to Resolve, and your videos were my primary resource for the colour page. Each tutorial has had so many useful tidbits, alongside a very clear explanation of the topic as a whole. Thank you!
Great to hear! Thanks for watching!
Fantastic video, very well explained! That you
Really clear excellent explanation. Big thanks!
Excellent video!!! I'm new to LOG footage and Davinci so your videos are very much appreciated. Thank you for the quality content.
Nice! Glad to hear it was helpful!
Super helpful! Solved some big mysteries for me.
You have a gift of explaining complicated things clearly and concisely! Great video.
Thanks dude! This may have been one of the most challenging topics to simplify enough for a beginner while still feeling like I was covering the topic decently so it means a lot to hear you say that.
Dude - as someone looking to become a pro editor and make it a career...this was the best video on colour and the specific use of Davinci. Thank you!
Insanely useful. Thanks!
Dude I just watched your "are you using S log right?" Video from a few months ago yesterday and now you drop this one - perfect timing! I'm wanting to transition from shooting all standard profiles into mainly S log and your videos have been such a huge help. Just got DaVinci resolve and it's a night and day difference color grading in there vs premiere pro. Thanks for all the work you do and keep the great content coming! 🤘
Nice! Thanks so much for the kind words and encouragement!
I love your videos! I am switching to DaVinci after 6 years of Premiere and am just blown away by the possibilities and the workflow. Keep up the great work! :D
Glad you like them! Cheers!
appreciate the work thanks a lott
Cool!! Thank you!!
Great video, man, thanks!
Thanks a ton!
Strong work bro!
They is what I needed 😭😭
The video I've been looking for!!💥
Nice!
Nicely explained. Thanks.
This was excellent, Dunna! Another great, well-explained video. I’m not gonna lie, I didn’t even know what a colour space transform was, but this was super helpful and it sounds like it could really help make colours look more accurate. Cheers!!
Thanks so much Arran!
Great video. I'm a beginner and was just always messing with the CST even fixing exposure in it. But I'll try your method. Sounds better.
thank you!
great video bro! thanks!!!
Glad you liked it! Check out my other videos!
So good. I’ve been playing with leeming luts to do that job but this looks easier to expose.
This was so helpful. Appreciate you
Glad it was helpful!
That was just fantastic Duna. U laid it out really well. So I can stop scratching around for a good explanation now - thx to u.
I'm glad I was able to help!
You may be the most useful person in the world. Thank you.
Really nice and helpful tips! Thanks!
Thanks for watching!
Thank you so much!
You're welcome!
thank you so much dun
Cheers!
Guru Dunna Did It 🙏🏻
Your davinci series have been a great help man!
Glad to hear that!! Thanks for watching!
I bought a 300€ DVR Course from a French RUclipsr (cause I am french) and he didn't explain this as well as you do. I changed my DVR language to english and I will watch all your guides. You should make an entire course with those kind of videos cause there is a great value behind this. Thank you a lot for your work.
Thanks so much for saying that!!
4:50 - There is a 'right place' - Colourspace Transform ALWAYS goes first.
If you don't do it that way, you get results like us Cion owners dealt with, where reviewers and colourists who'd never worked with Linear footage (but 'I know what I'm doing,...'), treated it like Log and Effed It Up Badly.
Linear is great for CG and Unreal, and there's only a handful of cameras that can do it - some Sony's and Arri's and the AJA.
this is the best explanation of this topic in RUclips by far. this content should be in a course not here in RUclips, that being said... thank you so much!
Thanks for the kind words!
I have been doing my colouring very similarly to you, but i have been putting my grading before the cst. i might try doing it after now
Nice Video Bro !
Thanks!
Good stuff I've been stuck with this problem for weeks
now i solved
Glad to hear that!
Wasting hours looking for videos like yours. Please keep up the crazy technical videos in color grading with cst. Everyone else is releasing garbage showing you how to tweak sliders. We need more in-depths on these topics like when you brushed over gamma 2.0 rec709 like that could be a whole topic
I've done some tests myself and you are right. I've seen many videos saying that you should have first node CST (Log to DaVinci wide gamut) and last node CST (DaVinci wide to Rec709) and all the color grading in between. But after I've done many tests myself, I weasn't able to get the best image, it had more noise when I was pushing the darks too high. If I do the same before the CST, the image looks a lot cleaer, color don't fall apart and it just makes more sense. Your video confimed what I discovered. Thanks!
Well, doing the double CST is the right way to do it. Not the way you found to work better. Try shifting to use the HDR color wheels, as they work different than the regular ones.
In fact, Dunna Did It responded to another post here, saying that, yes, double CST is the proper way to do it, but chose not to, in this tutorial, for simplicity.
Fantastic video. Explained it all so clearly. I just spent 3 hours messing about with Apple log video I shot on my iPhone and wish I’d come across this earlier.
I will reedit my video tomorrow using the learnings from this video
I’ve got a video about apple log coming too!
@@dunnadidit aah excellent. I’ll keep an eye out for it 👍🏼
@@dunnadidit just watching your new video on Apple Log ☺️☺️☺️
Thanks!
Thanks so much for the generosity
Your videos have been helping me so much recently. I’m finally starting to make content and that smooth zoom tutorial was incredible. I look forward to practicing the color grading tutorials soon, I’m just here watching to check it out for now but I have never color graded so this is going over my head at the moment admittedly
Anywho, would you consider making a video for best camera settings on Sony A7IV or do you have a particular video you used to learn it? The menu system is so confusing on A7IV.
Great to hear the videos have been helpful. I'll definitely consider your suggestion! If you watch my a7s3 setup video, the menus are similar, you might be able to get something from that.
man, nice and easy to understand.
Thanks! I try not to make it too advanced or technical!
I use color space transform to convert my camera footage into Davinci wide gamma and Davinci intermediate as the first node, then at the end, transform that Davinci gamma back to rec709 gamma 2.4
One of the best tuto, thanks you !!!
But, where will you put the node for the skin ?
Great video Dunna! Love these dives into color space. I wonder if it'd be helpful for folks to see your process with the colour checker card, and if you use the Davinci colour chart tool in place of a colour space transform node, or just for colour correction!
Thanks dude! To be honest, I don’t really use the color checker card much unless I feel like it will be a tricky white balance situation. Then I use the flip side as a grey card. I just figured it would help with demonstrating in this case because there might not be some colors in the shot without it. I probably should look into using it more though!
@@dunnadidit Oh totally! It definitely is a little more niche, but definitely that next step for folks getting those exact colours matched, especially across different camera brands! Anyways, keep up all the good vids! Your teaching style is always super easy to digest, and we appreciate you!
Dang dude, this answered a lot of questions.
I'm glad it was helpful!
This is so incredibly helpful! I had heard of color space transform but assumed it was too “professional” to ever try. You make this sound so easy! Is this included in resolve out of the box or is it a plug-in? Also- I noticed you quickly re-labeled your nodes (could’ve been through the magic of editing). Is there a keyboard shortcut for that?
Although I applaud that your doing some testing and showing your results - there are some problems in your analysis when it comes to the before a CST, and after in the testing mode, and your assumptions. Firstly, the explanation of the scene referred camera colorspace and gamma has a forward OOTF that Resolve analyses, and changes the mapping to the new space accordingly.
So making changes before the CST, and after need to have that to be unchecked firstly.
The other problem is that you then have tone mapping set to Davinci which the option tone maps the transform with a smooth luminance roll-off in the shadows and highlights, and controls desaturation of image values in the very brightest and darkest parts of the image.
This setting is particularly useful for wide-gamut camera media and is a good setting to use when mixing media from different cameras.
So of course the node after will make a difference.
When you set up your timeline in the project settings to Rec709 gamma 2.4 - the tools react the same before or after the CST because the timeline colorspace is set to rec709 - The whole thing is clearer when you set the timeline to Davinci Wide Gamut as you referred to in the start of this video.
All your controls are actually reacting to a rec709 when the timeline is set to rec709 - same with luts - the reason it looks different on your timeline is the tone and luminance mapping. The nodes before are showing you a log image in a rec709 colorspace but they are not displaying them.
I think that showing how the node placement for CST would have been less confusing and more accurate if you had of set the timeline space to Davinci Wide Gamut - then the first CST would feed the camera information in ( log to DWG ) and then a second CST near the end of the node tree showing the conversion to the monitor display ( DWG to Rec709 ) - then all the controls before the final CST would be actually color space aware and work differently. Even with this layout - it is okay to have a node before the CST if you want to change the middle grey before transform.
Hey Jim, thanks for the input. I considered doing a DWG version of this video since I do work that way most of the time but in the end I decided that a more simplified rec709 look at the node order and CST would be more beginner friendly because I wouldn't have to explain all the specifics behind color space aware tools, which ones are/aren't CSA and how to deal with that, why you want to have a wider space to grade in etc, etc, etc. While your addition is absolutely great, technical, thorough and you obviously know what you're doing, I believe it is significantly beyond what is necessary for a beginner to get going with log footage in DVR and therefore didn't fall into the purview of what I was attempting to do here. Even if I tried extremely hard to explain what you've said in more simple terms, I feel like it would overwhelm the average content creator looking to get into things here and for those who are up for the challenge, they'll get their on their own (maybe from a future video of mine if I decide to make a more technical in depth version).
Anyway! I appreciate your input and that you took the time to add this in the comments section for my viewers to see! Happy to have you here.
Thank you. The fact that f.ex. Cineon has the built in rec 709 output was very important information also the comparison of ”what you do before CST is like what you do in camera” was super helpful because it has been a bit difficult to see reasons for certain order(s). one thing though (and I know you briefly talk about this there too): Some people seem to want to work widegamut timeline… do you have any opinion on that? Thanks 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
This video is like the ahaaaaa now i get it video
Great vid dunna!
i was wondering wich settings i should take in the color space transform if i took the shot in cine4
I am pretty new to color grading and i think its simpler to start in cine4
Thank you!
You don’t actually need a CST for cine4 as far as I’m aware. It’s a rec709 based profile so you can just grade it with the tools as normal!
Excellent post ! Couple of questions.... When it comes to noise reduction you would do that before the CST ? at 19:33 when you create the new CS, on the "output color space" you had the choice: "use timeline", what did you have it on...? (I assume from the project settings...) and last, the final CST needs to be created not only to apply any film lut from Davinci itself, but also if we want to use film convert /dehancer...? Thanks! (hope my question is not too confusing cheers! :)
I'm currently edit in a Color managed timeline. Instead of using color transform nodes I set my projects with a custom color managed setup, setting the input color space and gamma, a davinci wide gamut timeline and a rec709 output. A lot easier
Quick question. First, thank you for this! It's exactly what I wanted. I do like to edit on my Mac though and have export look the same as what I edited so I use Rec.709-A. Is there a different setting I want to use for the "Color Space Transform" or keep to what you have?
Hi Dunna thanks for your tutorial!! How do I recognise if a Lut is already for Rec 709, or something else? Also if you mix clips in Log from the camera and Drone with d-Cinelike profile, how do you manage the different profiles? Do you create a color transform node every time to change the output? Thanks
this video is very good. How did you make this thumbnail with the nodes cut out?
Dunna is the ultimate RUclips photographer; a Sony shooter and a Resolve user 😂
How would you recommend grading DJI’s Dlog-M?
How do you know with those film look lut's, or any other lut what colorspace they need? 14:07
Awesome video! Question, around the 16-minute mark you mentioned that the film look LUTs expect a cineon gamma. How do I figure that out on my own? Where do I look to see which gamma is expected when applying a LUT?
Right click on the LUT -> Click 'Reveal In Finder' -> Open the LUT file with 'TextEdit'. This will show what the LUTS original INPUT and OUTPUT are. Cheers!
Hi, I wanted to ask you how can I tell if the lut I want to use works better with the REC 709 or the Cineon. Thanks, greetings
What about adding an ACES color space transform after the Rec709? Where should that be?
So after applying the lut you don’t need another node for Rec 709 2.4 ?
Do you know what is the input gamma for cine2
THANKS !! I just learnt something NEW with this video. To Use the Color Space Transform.
Wouldn't doing primary adjustments in a rec709 node before a CST be a bad idea?
Unless your primary nodes are set to Slog3/sgamut3cine to make those adjustments based on how the log curve compresses the image, then lead those adjustments into a CST
Hey Dunna, thanks for the great vid as always. But do you notice a washed out less contrast/saturation after Export on Davinci resolve like they do in Premiere Pro?
I think this is a Mac problem, the solution is this: File > Project Settings > Color Management > Output Color Space > Rec 709-A
☺️
Which Input should I use in CST when I shoot with PP off, I can't find anything for that and would be happy for some help :)
Where would you sharpen the image?
what is the name of that piece of color board shown in the very begining and it's purpose in color grading ?
How do i find out which Input the Luts needing? For example how do you know that the Davinci Luts are needing Cineon Film Log?
Hello, if we use DaVinci YRGB Color Managed is there any reason to use a CST node too? I mean i can select in project settings that my input color space is lets say S-Gammut3.cine and the output to be Rec709 and DaVinci will automatically color manage that, no?
Color managed just automatically puts in a cst at the start and end. So if you use that way it’s exactly the Same as going log>DWG at the start and DWG>rec709 at the end. The only downside is that if you have any tools or parts of your process that require you to do them in rec709, then color managed makes that a bit more difficult.
THANK YOU !! what you think about the auto ISO in video?! so many people talking about it (saying sony ''reccomends to shoot in +1.7'' and ''ISO not causes GRAIN'') , but i ''think'' it not applies to video..
Generally, I never shoot auto ISO and I try to keep my iso as low as possible if I have the ability to increase light in other ways. It really depends on the situation. Increasing iso will increase visible noise but it’s also important to understand how your specific camera deals with iso.
How do you edit your audio?
I shot 1.5 TB of Footage on the 6k pro in Full 6k Braw Film Gen 5. Its a client project and I need to deliver it in the best quality possible for uploading on a website through Vimeo. I would like to color grade the footage in DaVinci and export it to After Effects while maintaining all the quality in 6k resolution for editing.
What would be the best project settings and color space transform from start to finish? Blackmagic Gen 5 Color Space and Blackmagic Film Gen 5 Gamma to Davinci Wide Gamut and Davinci Intermediate and then that to Rec 709 and Gamma 2.4 / Cineon Film Log?
Can I deliver in Rec 709 as color space and Cineon Film Log as Gamma and still have it displayed nicely on all displays even tho it’s Cineon and not Gamma 2.4?
What would be the best render settings or way to export the footage 6k lossless to after effects?
I would really appreciate your answer!
Thanks for this video.
What if I shot it with an iPhone 14, which color space should I be using? Can´t find anything that matches what I originally had in cam..
I am having trouble preparing the clip be for the CST. I have to keep the CST node to see the outcome correctly. Am I doing something wrong?
Can u make a video when u explain witch is better for video editing and why? premiere or davinci resolve
No need for a whole video. I pick davinci! In fact, I did. I was a premiere user for quite a while and switching to davinci was huge!
Where to put the Skin node then? Before or after the CST?
If I put it before the CST I can no longer activate the skin mask, while if I put it after I have a loss of file information.
Make sure to turn on saturation compression in gamut mapping too so there aren’t any crazy out of gamut colors during the transform, which can happen commonly when converting from log to r709.
what about Tone Mapping? what choice? thanks!
@@wildpatagoniafilms16 DaVinci and luminance work best. Saturation preserving is good if you find the tone mapping making colors dull from the higher dynamic range but it can lead to over-saturation
@@Alexrocks1253 hey thanks! Now... this is with Log footage, (from any camera...) How about lets say if I work with RED Raw or other proprietary RAW...? same steps.... CST from RAW to Rec 709...? Thanks again! cheers!
@@wildpatagoniafilms16 now personally I use color management and let DaVinci resolve so the hard work and just select which combo for input transform the footage uses. If still using CST, as long as you know the gamma and color space, it should be an accurate conversion, even from raw footage, though color management transforms raw footage automatically.
@@Alexrocks1253 I see, makes sense! I suppose that even if you use Color management and let Davinci do the heavy lifting... you would still use a CST at the end of the node tree if you want to use lets say a film LUT either from davinci or a third party one, (using cineon for instance), same if using filmconvert ... (kindly advise you seem to be very knowledgeable!!!). cheers & thanks again! ;)
Hey Dunna. I apply the CST on the clip by right clicking and setting the input color space/gamma there. I was doing it in the node, but found out that was the wrong way to do it, and makes how your controls affect images with different color spaces seem really random, as well as changes the way your eyedropper works in a really bad way.
I believe this only works in color managed modes. He’s not working in a color manger timeline.
does it matter having the final CST to rec 709, gamma 2.4 or can you just leave the final CST deliver in 709, 2.4. I cant really see a problem with it