Glyn is/was my old school chum and when we left school he got a job at IBC studios and I had formed a rock band called The Presidents. At weekends Glyn would invite us up to the studio and try out his new skills and the combination got us signed to Decca Records. Here is a link to one of the tracks we recorded with Glyn at the controls which was passed to Decca but somehow got lost BUT was found in LA in 2018 and released that June - so here one hears one of his earliest productions mimed with the original line up which I managed to get together. Please share the link - @
this was actually very helpful. you hear a lot of people talk about how cymbals bleed into other mics and whatnot, but no one really explains why beyond the fact that they are just LOUD. This is the first i've heard someone actually explain the physics behind the way sound radiates from a cymbal. Very cool to have this knowledge in ye ole database. Much appreciated, thank you.
Great video here. I know several engineers such as Niko Bolas who often use the traditional Glyn Johns configuration and get it sounding absolutely amazing regardless of this, but I think it's good to point this out to people who are new to the technique.
Dude, this is killer! I am a fan of the GJ method and have experienced that same "issue". I still made it work but it's nice to see you pull it apart and and look for another solution. Thanks again.
I’ve only recently tried Glyn’s drum mic method after reading his book. I am not experiencing any problems at all. This could be down to drum kit set up but the nearest thing too the right hand mic is my floor tom . I have a crash cymbal & my ride to the right but the floor tom is still closest. I measured the distance from the mic’s ( although Glyn never did ) & love the overall balance I now have. I’ve only added a touch of under snare mic to his set up , & I think it sounds great. Having an early 70’s Ludwig kit probably helps.
I found this very helpful. I also noticed a correlation with acoustic guitar recording. One mic overhead-forward, one mic 10" off of the 12th fret, and one mic over the player's right shoulder. That in itself, might be a great formula for many different acoustic sources.
Hahaha! i had this exact problem last week and fixed it the same way you just showed but after hours of trying to figure out what was causing the cymbal "wash" problem. im glad you could explain it much clearer than i could. thankyou.
I ran into precisely this problem last weekend when I added a second crash to my right, just above my ride and over my double floor toms, which my mic hovers over. I moved the crash higher, higher than I preferred, which helped, but still sounded weird. I'll try moving the tom mic stand further around right side. Problem is my 18" floor tom is kinda in the way, so I'll have to experiment a bit. Also, I'll need to raise my overhead to match the distances to the snare. Thanks for this video.
I always close mic cymbals from the top. I move the mic closer to the bell on the ride and further out on crashes and smaller cymbals. I really don’t like overheads to capture then overall kit. I also close mic the toms and snare. Sometimes I use two mics on a snare, one above and below.
Have noted that in pics of the recording setup for Led Zep II Bonham only had his bass-mounted ride on the right side of the kit: no crash. He was also shy a floor tom; clearly a guy who knew where to draw the line between style and substance. Made me think after watching this, good stuff to consider.
Just found your channel and I'm loving all of the info I am getting! Seriously informative stuff. I like how you can really illustrate the issues you are addressing with actual samples. Not everyone does that. Now I have definitive information that I know about how cymbals radiate sound because I have heard it for myself. Thank you!
When I use the Glyn Johns method i use a ribbon mic for the mic that's over the floor tom, I find that prevents that weird phasing issue and just warms up the overheads a little.
Ah, I should have watched this video yesterday. Had a session where I tried out this method but had some minor issues with the left cymbal.. great video 🙌🏻
last night I'm trying this method on a live music situation, but kind a put the floor tom overhead mic close ti the kit. This vudeo made me realize new things thanks a lot
So with the GJ/Hybrid with the over the shoulder and the over the snare overhead, How do you think Those 2 mic positions would fair as overheads(Compared to lets say a typical spaced pair or XY) in a more modern setup where your still micing all the drums, and having room mics etc???
You absolutely just solved the exact problem I've been having. So weird that I found this in my youtube recommendations without even searching for it. Thanks!
The last technique is the recorderman right? the mic around the shoulder, but maybe that involves measuring the kick too. I never had huge faith when you measure instead of listen...But I found a 'similar' technique to recorderman is just chosing a more normal overhead placement, and bringing them out from the kit if you have a snare and kick mic anyway. Then the other mic can still naturally fall in line with the drummer's shoulder but in a different position. I just didn't see why its used all based off the snare position, when there are snare mics, as often it would be mostly there for cymbals and toms (if no tom mics).
+jorgepeterbarton It's not recorderman but a development of that technique into something total new. Here's the real explanation: ruclips.net/video/K9NjecFFoIQ/видео.html
That cymbals thing is totally worth noting and your right I haven't heard anyone else comment on it on youtube. I've used it to good creative effect though (you can get almost a leslie effect on the cymbals if you do it right)
Lukas Thielmann Thanks! I've got an interesting story to share sometime about how I got two professors arguing on both ends of this cymbal effect. It ended with a 80 page dissertation being presented that proved my theory.
I think the biggest problem people have when using this method isn't the mic placement, necessarily. The problem is they are trying to force this set up to be the right solution for their session. This doesn't work with every drummer's setup, or play style. No one approach does, and its the job of the producer/sound engineer to realize that and be creative to solve the issue. Look at how Bonham had his cymbals set up, they were in a way that the mic on the floor tom side would be placed between his ride and crash cymbal in terms of height. Even if you watch the most popular video of Glyn Johns setting it up himself, he places the floor tom side mic above the nearest cymbal. I also think that people don't talk about this problem because the topic of the cymbal's dead spot doesn't get brought up in general. And that's too bad because, like you demonstrate here, it can be a very undesirable sound...until it's desirable. haha.
louderthangod Thanks! One variation is you can always add a low microphone to your normal set up and if you don't like the panning effect, just don't use it. It's a really cool effect as long as your expecting it.
Found a video where this effect is present. I love the drum sound, but the cymbals dance around in the stereo field. It's up to you if you like that or not. ruclips.net/video/MAOZG8WoMws/видео.html
Creative Sound Lab hey this is the best sounding tech, but really hard to mix with other instrument. For drum soloing is fantastic, but when electric guitar came in, it destroys all mid range of drum. And i havent got the right mic for drum to blend with crunchy amp. So could you suggest me anything please?
Thank you. I have seen these methods before - but you presented them so well and accurately. I enjoyed your relaxed playing too! And yes - the blade of the cymbal was very interesting if used deliberately. You have new Subscriber!
Hey! Fantastic video!!!. I have one question, here's my recording setup: -M-Audio M-Track Quad -ZOOM H2 recorder -SHURE BETA 52A -Behringer B5 (only 1 overhead) -Shitty Samson mic that I use for the snare. Here's my question: As I just said, I'm gonna use the Samson mic to record the snare and the shure beta 52 A for the kick, BUT I'm wondering how to use the 2 others. I was wondering to use the ZOOM H2 recorder as the overhead (the one above the snare) and the behringer B5 on the right side of the kit. The zoom h2 can record on stereo because it has 2 mics, so i don't know if in the (for example) Logic Pro X project use 4 mono channels, or to use 2 mono channels (snare, kick) and 1 stereo channel (zoom h2 + behringer b5). I'm asking this because i don't really have 2 overheads that are the "same" so I don't know if I could apply this recording technique. Any tips would be appreciated ^^!
I would try to run everything into Logic, instead of using a stand alone recording to get your overheads. Sometimes the recording speeds can be slightly different on those little H2s compared to a DAW that isn't running on a pair of AA batteries. I would run a single overhead, and then run a kick mic or any other close mics that you want to run. I actually have a course for $17 on recording with two microphones if you are interested: recordingschool.creativesoundlab.tv/product/pro-recording-with-small-2-channel-interfaces/
i think this is really cool....you do a great job and im new to all this, drumming AND recording drums....my main instrument is guitar....yeah im one of THOSE guys...lol but ive written a bunch of songs and im preparing to record them....so you are really helping me here...im gonna listen to 'recording guitars" next ....I subscribed
Interesting video. Glad I've stumbled across this. I've been experimenting with this particular method recently and I'm certainly going to keep more of an ear out for that panning effect. Thanks!
Wow I would have never even noticed this problem until you pointed this dilemma out. Great tutorials! I will have to join your email list!!! I also enjoy watching the progression of your dreads! You can tell how old of a video it is by the length. I miss mine kinda and I too lived in a bandana! cheers
Steve Wills Thanks Steve! Yeah the length of my hair seems like it'll keep giving away how old the videos are. I've thought about tucking back my hair so it's not so obvious as it gets longer. Mine are three years old this past January.
What are the rods you are playing with at the example around 7:15? They don't look like they would give much bounce but you're getting killer double strokes out of it. Is it your technique or do they really have good rebound?
Yeah very true. They never hit their cymbals hard either, otherwise the room mics are just a wash of cymbals. I try to teach from a typical scenario and low cymbals is real life.
Billy Barton Some say 48 inches (121 cm) because they would take three drum sticks (each are about 16 inches) and use them as a measurement (If I remember correctly). I have never done that really, I just get a good height that I like, and match it with the side microphone. Glyn Johns says that he never measures, just roughly places the mic, and then drives the preamp a little to compress the sound a touch.
It might be a little better for phase issues, but I'm not trying to do the Recorderman here. I'm just trying to take a different approach on Glyn Johns with a higher up side mic. To be honest, I think that the Recorderman always sounds a little boring to me. This technique is more like what was in TapeOp Magazine.
very informative, very cool, and thanks.....any tips on recording a 11 piece kit, with roto toms using glen johns method, with perhaps adding a few mics (a vistalite set with 3 rotos)? all cymbals are pretty much well above the kit, would you recommend putting it above shoulder as well, like this?
+Mike Isonhiskit There's a lot I could say about this. Just about any overhead technique can be made wider or narrower depending on your needs. For a kit that big, I would want to add carpet to the room to make it slightly more absorbent, and then you can raise your overheads up and out without sounding like the overheads are becoming a room mic. I really love using the Blumlein Technique, think XY with ribbons, as it keeps everything simple when looking at it from a phase perspective. I would use Glyn Johns for a small kit with two toms, and 3 cymbals.
Hi, thank you for this video! I have a question, maybe I have missed the answer if you had already left it in the video: I assume the center mic points at the kick pedal, so what's the side mic pointing to? Thank you Michele
I try at all cost to not use techniques that get in the way of a performer. Keep a low profile and let the musician be as natural and comfortable as they can is like a state of mind for me. Move stuff around seems to be against that, but I may still ask when cymbals hit mics, or there's no way of not asking to move a cymbal.
cool channel! would be cool also to hear it in a mix w bass and other instruments, to see what the actual end result may be on some of your material, as it is all innately very subtle things really.
I found the best way to eliminate this is by using the Simon Phillips mic technique of the cymbals. Basically Simon says that if the cymbals are mounted low & close to the toms you will get too much of both toms & cymbals, its like their fighting for their space! Thats why Simon cymbals are mounted high. But not all drummers like having to reach high to hit the cymbals, shoulder & back sure get a workout hey?!! Anyway cymbal positioning, size & weight of cymbals plus the most important of all is the drummers technique & dynamics is the key to getting the best sound for your session. Just have a listen to Ringo Starr & Nick Mason, their not heavy hitters, they hit the drums in their sweet spot. Proof of that is the sound they got on those magic albums. They knew how to play to the mic when they recorded. This IMO is not mentioned enough. Through my own experience this is of paramount importance, probably the most important of all.
Totally agree. I once was doing front of house for a street festival and we had a backline set up with the same kit miced up and it blew me away how different each drummer sounded. One set it was fire, I felt like some of the best drums I had done the whole weekend and the next set with the same exact mix,just a different drummer. It fell apart and I was all over the place trying to fix it. It was all in the drummers touch. I don't think this is understood by most. It's the most important part of any drum recording is the drummers touch and feel. A great drummer can make a crappy kit sing, and a crap drummer can make a high end kit sound like trash. No drummer can make shitty cymbals sound good.
Just watching your films now for the first time. I like your style of presentation - very straightforward. I've just got a DP 24; so getting to grips with some very elementary recording issues, like compression. I play guitar - electric and acoustic, the music is all quite rootsy. so these techniques you're posting are incredibly useful....feels like a bit of a mountain to climb though! Thanks Again.
Melanie de la Cour Hi Len. The overheads are CAD m179. I don't use them for overeheads a whole lot as they are a brighter palette than if I were to use my ribbon, but they serve a fair mic to use for a demo as it's affordable.
Hi Ryan, love your videos! Do you think the Glyn Johns method is a good idea in a not so great sounding room? Could dampening the room improve results? I have limited mics/inputs on a Tascam 388 to record an Americana/Folky band. Thanks!!
+Eric Davidson Hmm, I havn't had luck with Glyn Johns recently. To me it's just very hard to pull off when the side mic is that low. I would get a mono overhead as close as you can without it getting hit by the drummer, and then perhaps an over the should mic. In bad rooms, watch out for phasing of the snare with the ceiling and splat from the cymbals. That would give you better results that could mean a big deal for mix time.
Very nice video dude! only have one question.. could i use two diferent mics to record with this technique? or it has to be with both same mics? thanks!
+Tomas Montanaro Go ahead and try it. You are going to have a difference in sound from the two different angles, and the cymbals and kick drum in particular will sound different at the over the should position. Try to get two mics that have similar low mids at 200-400 Hz so the body of the snare drum is centered.
+Tomas Montanaro can sometimes work better. Its less natural stereo field, but the more different, the less phase issues, and you can even be selective like one to suit floor tom, blocking the ride from overwhelming, whilst the other tuned more for the crash. I wouldn't go too far and get mics right at the opposite side of the spectrum. You can use a lot of different things as overheads as long as it suits the mic pattern you want, large condensers are favoured though, but i've heard of small condensers, dynamics, even ribbons used to great effect in just about any polar pattern.
Hey friend, I've been shooting out overhead placements in my small (11'x20' w 8' ceilings) room, and I've found so many issues in placements where I like the snare imaging and cymbal sound but get an unusable kick panning. I try placing the mics equidistant from the snare and the kick so the phasing isn't weird, but often times the left mic (the one to the drummer's right) gets a more focused attack on the kick and it's impossible to correct with EQ. Any tips on how to avoid this?
The "shoulder mic" is a great improvement. If you add a Shure SM57 in the middle of the drum set (the so-called "Wurst" by Moses Schneider: ruclips.net/video/__Bh3D_Pvt8/видео.html), it's better to move the top overhead mic away from the snare and above the hi-hat since you already have enough snare and toms on the "Wurst".
having messed around with this "Decca Tree"/ Glynn Johns mic set-up I've learned this much...you need: 1. a set of classic Ludwigs with at least a 26" kick with both heads in tact ...no laundry, no muffling, no holes....2. you need a KILLER room...3. spendier microphones that most of us can't afford in our home set up...otherwise it sounds like swatting cereal boxes
well I actually have a classic set of Ludwigs with a 28" kick....LOL....in a very small room that is lined with corrugated wood , so i can get a very good room sound in here....but I still prefer close mic'ing over the 3 or 4 mic set-up....with only 3 mics i found it necessary to flip the phase on the kick, but with close mic'ing , I just cut everything below 500hz on the overheads and bring them in a little closer to my cymbal array....this takes care of all the phase issues with the kick and toms, even the snare....the snare mic very tight for more bump and the tom mics out by the rims and up about 6" pointed towards the center....which is still very old school, except for the roll-off on the overheads....i use no muffling whatsoever and can get pretty much any drum sound I want from jazzy to full-on Bonzo
I like using glyn John's method and single mono over space pair for overheads. just curious how do you pan glyn john. or do you pan at all?? I find myself panning the top mic slight left and the shoulder mic slightly to the right..what about you? or do you not pan at all and let the mics placement pan naturally..
and yet, no one is returning their copy of Who's Next! I'm not so sure it's really a "problem" unless you make it one. But I DO know that that closer in placement isn't nearly as nice an image.
This "problem" is the actual phase of the cymbal going in and out as the cymbal turns up and down, the upper side of the cymbal makes positive waves, and at the same time the underside of the cymbal makes negative waves, that's why in the middle where they meet they cancel, so theres barely any sound, so, there are easy ways to avoid that: -Raise/lower the microphone so that when the cymbal moves up and down it always shows the same face to the mic. -Raise/lower the cymbal so that when the cymbal moves up and down it always shows the same face to the mic. -Raise/lower the cymbal and microphone so that the cymbal always show the same face to the mic. Your goal is that the cymbals always show the same face to the mics so they never flip phase.
I never heard anyone else about this, but i've had issues with it as well, even with the "recorderman" setup, with the mic over the shoulder. It's a pity because i like the tightness of this aproach. I stopped doing it and now i mostly use ORTF' ish setups.
Yeah, I really use Blumlein and ORTF a lot here. Spaced pairs like this really open up a lot of issues very quickly and it can take a lot of time to mess with.
I has a learning student of a recording student I much prefer Glyns method as it's a proven method! I I much prefer engineers with experience long before you were born - DUDE!
+MeTuLHeD I think the big difference is that the recorder man technique tries to get both overheads equidistant to both the kick and snare, which is way more constrictive. I could be wrong though.
+Lukas Thielmann I've played around with recorderman a lot way back when, but what I ended up doing mostly was something very much like the setup in the video. The moment you're trying to get everything on the drums in phase is when you start loosing your mind. I've even time shifted tom mics to fit until I realized I wasn't getting anything done.
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Glyn is/was my old school chum and when we left school he got a job at IBC studios and I had formed a rock band called The Presidents. At weekends Glyn would invite us up to the studio and try out his new skills and the combination got us signed to Decca Records. Here is a link to one of the tracks we recorded with Glyn at the controls which was passed to Decca but somehow got lost BUT was found in LA in 2018 and released that June - so here one hears one of his earliest productions mimed with the original line up which I managed to get together. Please share the link - @
1:11 Main Problem
2:38 Cause of the Problem
3:37 Audio Demo
5:48 Solution
7:12 Solution Audio Demo
this comment sealed the deal for me on subscribing. thank you, great content!
Only Jimmy Page knows the truth, he produced all of Led Zeppelin.
Son, your only using your theory “
Buddy Rich never tuned his cymbals and no one cares “
this was actually very helpful. you hear a lot of people talk about how cymbals bleed into other mics and whatnot, but no one really explains why beyond the fact that they are just LOUD. This is the first i've heard someone actually explain the physics behind the way sound radiates from a cymbal. Very cool to have this knowledge in ye ole database. Much appreciated, thank you.
+David Scott Hey thanks David! Glad you found it helpful!
Dude, I was really digging that groove you had going about 4:40 - 5:00. I didn't want it to stop!
Great video here. I know several engineers such as Niko Bolas who often use the traditional Glyn Johns configuration and get it sounding absolutely amazing regardless of this, but I think it's good to point this out to people who are new to the technique.
Dude, this is killer! I am a fan of the GJ method and have experienced that same "issue". I still made it work but it's nice to see you pull it apart and and look for another solution. Thanks again.
Jason Tamayo It's cool others are hearing the same thing! Thanks for the comment.
I’ve only recently tried Glyn’s drum mic method after reading his book. I am not experiencing any problems at all. This could be down to drum kit set up but the nearest thing too the right hand mic is my floor tom . I have a crash cymbal & my ride to the right but the floor tom is still closest.
I measured the distance from the mic’s ( although Glyn never did ) & love the overall balance I now have. I’ve only added a touch of under snare mic to his set up , & I think it sounds great. Having an early 70’s Ludwig kit probably helps.
I found this very helpful. I also noticed a correlation with acoustic guitar recording. One mic overhead-forward, one mic 10" off of the 12th fret, and one mic over the player's right shoulder. That in itself, might be a great formula for many different acoustic sources.
Hahaha! i had this exact problem last week and fixed it the same way you just showed but after hours of trying to figure out what was causing the cymbal "wash" problem. im glad you could explain it much clearer than i could. thankyou.
Nice, glad to hear that you found the solution on your own. There will be other problems that come up too. The best type of learning!
This is really really helpful.. I'm planning to switch to Glyn Johns once I get my hands on a focusrite interface
It's a honor to be come a subscriber : Your material content and videos are of the highest quality - Keep up the fabulous work ! : )
Thanks and I'm glad you are here!
Thank you : ) And I will be supporting your other endeavors as soon as I can afford to do so :
I ran into precisely this problem last weekend when I added a second crash to my right, just above my ride and over my double floor toms, which my mic hovers over. I moved the crash higher, higher than I preferred, which helped, but still sounded weird. I'll try moving the tom mic stand further around right side. Problem is my 18" floor tom is kinda in the way, so I'll have to experiment a bit. Also, I'll need to raise my overhead to match the distances to the snare. Thanks for this video.
I always close mic cymbals from the top. I move the mic closer to the bell on the ride and further out on crashes and smaller cymbals. I really don’t like overheads to capture then overall kit. I also close mic the toms and snare. Sometimes I use two mics on a snare, one above and below.
Have noted that in pics of the recording setup for Led Zep II Bonham only had his bass-mounted ride on the right side of the kit: no crash. He was also shy a floor tom; clearly a guy who knew where to draw the line between style and substance. Made me think after watching this, good stuff to consider.
Just found your channel and I'm loving all of the info I am getting! Seriously informative stuff. I like how you can really illustrate the issues you are addressing with actual samples. Not everyone does that. Now I have definitive information that I know about how cymbals radiate sound because I have heard it for myself. Thank you!
+Alex Coffin Thanks man! This video was supported by an 80 page dissertation, so this only scratches the surface.
Awesome!
When I use the Glyn Johns method i use a ribbon mic for the mic that's over the floor tom, I find that prevents that weird phasing issue and just warms up the overheads a little.
also i usually set my mic centred over the snare up pretty high so that it forces me to move the mic over the floor tom further back
and I always use a snare mic
Doug Payne That's a great idea. You can use the null of the Figure 8 pattern to reduce the cymbal effect. Great idea, and thanks for sharing.
+creativesoundlab I believe Glyn Johns himself also used ribbon mics, but don't quote me on that.
Can this Technique work with dynamic microphones?? I mean the Overhead and the Shoulder one?
Ah, I should have watched this video yesterday. Had a session where I tried out this method but had some minor issues with the left cymbal.. great video 🙌🏻
last night I'm trying this method on a live music situation, but kind a put the floor tom overhead mic close ti the kit. This vudeo made me realize new things thanks a lot
Nice!
Just now learning drums and recording them. Your vids are helpful. You have great talent for both drumming and teaching. Keep it up. Thank you!
I've been SCREAMING this for years! Glad I'm not the only one! Good video.
So with the GJ/Hybrid with the over the shoulder and the over the snare overhead, How do you think Those 2 mic positions would fair as overheads(Compared to lets say a typical spaced pair or XY) in a more modern setup where your still micing all the drums, and having room mics etc???
You absolutely just solved the exact problem I've been having. So weird that I found this in my youtube recommendations without even searching for it. Thanks!
Glad I could help!
This is really informative. I was going for Recorderman at practice room; but I will try this ' tweak ' . Thank you, Sir.
I've been trying this last couple of weeks. Liking the results
Nice!
Don Dixon's techinque! I've record many albums with this setup!
Love Tape Op!
The last technique is the recorderman right? the mic around the shoulder, but maybe that involves measuring the kick too.
I never had huge faith when you measure instead of listen...But I found a 'similar' technique to recorderman is just chosing a more normal overhead placement, and bringing them out from the kit if you have a snare and kick mic anyway. Then the other mic can still naturally fall in line with the drummer's shoulder but in a different position. I just didn't see why its used all based off the snare position, when there are snare mics, as often it would be mostly there for cymbals and toms (if no tom mics).
+jorgepeterbarton It's not recorderman but a development of that technique into something total new. Here's the real explanation: ruclips.net/video/K9NjecFFoIQ/видео.html
That cymbals thing is totally worth noting and your right I haven't heard anyone else comment on it on youtube. I've used it to good creative effect though (you can get almost a leslie effect on the cymbals if you do it right)
Lukas Thielmann Thanks! I've got an interesting story to share sometime about how I got two professors arguing on both ends of this cymbal effect. It ended with a 80 page dissertation being presented that proved my theory.
I think the biggest problem people have when using this method isn't the mic placement, necessarily. The problem is they are trying to force this set up to be the right solution for their session. This doesn't work with every drummer's setup, or play style. No one approach does, and its the job of the producer/sound engineer to realize that and be creative to solve the issue. Look at how Bonham had his cymbals set up, they were in a way that the mic on the floor tom side would be placed between his ride and crash cymbal in terms of height. Even if you watch the most popular video of Glyn Johns setting it up himself, he places the floor tom side mic above the nearest cymbal.
I also think that people don't talk about this problem because the topic of the cymbal's dead spot doesn't get brought up in general. And that's too bad because, like you demonstrate here, it can be a very undesirable sound...until it's desirable. haha.
Been learning a lot about sound recording lately. It's all fascinating stuff! Thanks for the vid.
Subscribed! Thanks man love your channel
istance between shoulder microphone and kit? Distance overhead to snare? What kind of microphones are they?
thank you
Very cool. I'll have to try that over the shoulder technique. I actually really liked the panning sound of that first example.
louderthangod Thanks! One variation is you can always add a low microphone to your normal set up and if you don't like the panning effect, just don't use it. It's a really cool effect as long as your expecting it.
Found a video where this effect is present. I love the drum sound, but the cymbals dance around in the stereo field. It's up to you if you like that or not. ruclips.net/video/MAOZG8WoMws/видео.html
Creative Sound Lab hey this is the best sounding tech, but really hard to mix with other instrument. For drum soloing is fantastic, but when electric guitar came in, it destroys all mid range of drum. And i havent got the right mic for drum to blend with crunchy amp. So could you suggest me anything please?
An extraordinarily helpful video and channel. Subscribed!
Thanks, glad you are here!
Mind detailing the how you pan them?
Awesome dude. Far more depth than most, and good work on having a video contents.
Isaac Craig Thanks!
Thank you. I have seen these methods before - but you presented them so well and accurately. I enjoyed your relaxed playing too! And yes - the blade of the cymbal was very interesting if used deliberately. You have new Subscriber!
Hey! Fantastic video!!!. I have one question, here's my recording setup:
-M-Audio M-Track Quad
-ZOOM H2 recorder
-SHURE BETA 52A
-Behringer B5 (only 1 overhead)
-Shitty Samson mic that I use for the snare.
Here's my question: As I just said, I'm gonna use the Samson mic to record the snare and the shure beta 52 A for the kick, BUT I'm wondering how to use the 2 others. I was wondering to use the ZOOM H2 recorder as the overhead (the one above the snare) and the behringer B5 on the right side of the kit. The zoom h2 can record on stereo because it has 2 mics, so i don't know if in the (for example) Logic Pro X project use 4 mono channels, or to use 2 mono channels (snare, kick) and 1 stereo channel (zoom h2 + behringer b5). I'm asking this because i don't really have 2 overheads that are the "same" so I don't know if I could apply this recording technique.
Any tips would be appreciated ^^!
I would try to run everything into Logic, instead of using a stand alone recording to get your overheads. Sometimes the recording speeds can be slightly different on those little H2s compared to a DAW that isn't running on a pair of AA batteries. I would run a single overhead, and then run a kick mic or any other close mics that you want to run. I actually have a course for $17 on recording with two microphones if you are interested: recordingschool.creativesoundlab.tv/product/pro-recording-with-small-2-channel-interfaces/
Creative Sound Lab Thanks for the feedback!! I'm gonna try It this way. ok, i'll give it a watch! 😋😋
i think this is really cool....you do a great job and im new to all this, drumming AND recording drums....my main instrument is guitar....yeah im one of THOSE guys...lol
but ive written a bunch of songs and im preparing to record them....so you are really helping me here...im gonna listen to 'recording guitars" next ....I subscribed
Still recording? Remember me? Im the Hammond guy?
Hi how to be added in your mailing list?
Interesting video. Glad I've stumbled across this. I've been experimenting with this particular method recently and I'm certainly going to keep more of an ear out for that panning effect. Thanks!
MrAnthonyTalks27 Thanks for saying hello. Glad I could help!
Wow I would have never even noticed this problem until you pointed this dilemma
out. Great tutorials! I will have to join your email list!!!
I also enjoy watching the progression of your dreads! You can tell how old of a video
it is by the length. I miss mine kinda and I too lived in a bandana!
cheers
Steve Wills Thanks Steve! Yeah the length of my hair seems like it'll keep giving away how old the videos are. I've thought about tucking back my hair so it's not so obvious as it gets longer. Mine are three years old this past January.
Your hair looks fine as it is now Steve.
What are the rods you are playing with at the example around 7:15? They don't look like they would give much bounce but you're getting killer double strokes out of it. Is it your technique or do they really have good rebound?
They are called Broom sticks. They are balanced real good, but don't have any bounce, so it's all technique.
This is why experienced studio drummers have their cymbals much higher. It avoids many of these problems.
Yeah very true. They never hit their cymbals hard either, otherwise the room mics are just a wash of cymbals. I try to teach from a typical scenario and low cymbals is real life.
What are the distances from the snare, or if they are equal does it matter?
Billy Barton Some say 48 inches (121 cm) because they would take three drum sticks (each are about 16 inches) and use them as a measurement (If I remember correctly). I have never done that really, I just get a good height that I like, and match it with the side microphone. Glyn Johns says that he never measures, just roughly places the mic, and then drives the preamp a little to compress the sound a touch.
Seems like kind of a combo between the Glyn Johns & Recorder Man techniques
the... Glyn Man?
when the one mic is moved, are they still the same distance from the center of the snare?
Good call! I'm glad you brought this up.
5:48 Wouldn't that basically be considered the Recorderman technique???
+Zachary “Red” Fulton Yeah, it's pretty close....if I measured to both kick and snare.
It might be a little better for phase issues, but I'm not trying to do the Recorderman here. I'm just trying to take a different approach on Glyn Johns with a higher up side mic. To be honest, I think that the Recorderman always sounds a little boring to me. This technique is more like what was in TapeOp Magazine.
very informative, very cool, and thanks.....any tips on recording a 11 piece kit, with roto toms using glen johns method, with perhaps adding a few mics (a vistalite set with 3 rotos)? all cymbals are pretty much well above the kit, would you recommend putting it above shoulder as well, like this?
+Mike Isonhiskit There's a lot I could say about this. Just about any overhead technique can be made wider or narrower depending on your needs. For a kit that big, I would want to add carpet to the room to make it slightly more absorbent, and then you can raise your overheads up and out without sounding like the overheads are becoming a room mic. I really love using the Blumlein Technique, think XY with ribbons, as it keeps everything simple when looking at it from a phase perspective. I would use Glyn Johns for a small kit with two toms, and 3 cymbals.
thanks for this one... brought some bright insights and ideas as well!! Good job. Keep it up!!
Hi, thank you for this video!
I have a question, maybe I have missed the answer if you had already left it in the video: I assume the center mic points at the kick pedal, so what's the side mic pointing to?
Thank you
Michele
What mics are you using for this technique? What microphones would you recomend for this technique if someone was on a budget?
This happened to my last recording. Thanks for help!
amazing drum sound! especially that kick drum. nice work!
Thanks!
why not move the cymbals around? like have that crash higher so then we can still get floor tom?
I try at all cost to not use techniques that get in the way of a performer. Keep a low profile and let the musician be as natural and comfortable as they can is like a state of mind for me. Move stuff around seems to be against that, but I may still ask when cymbals hit mics, or there's no way of not asking to move a cymbal.
Can this technique be used for a live performance i.e a gig?
cool channel! would be cool also to hear it in a mix w bass and other instruments, to see what the actual end result may be on some of your material, as it is all innately very subtle things really.
Do you remember what polar pattern/DB pads you had on the CAD179s for this setup?
It might have been omni or cardiod. Pad it if you need it.
I found the best way to eliminate this is by using the Simon Phillips mic technique of the cymbals. Basically Simon says that if the cymbals are mounted low & close to the toms you will get too much of both toms & cymbals, its like their fighting for their space! Thats why Simon cymbals are mounted high. But not all drummers like having to reach high to hit the cymbals, shoulder & back sure get a workout hey?!! Anyway cymbal positioning, size & weight of cymbals plus the most important of all is the drummers technique & dynamics is the key to getting the best sound for your session. Just have a listen to Ringo Starr & Nick Mason, their not heavy hitters, they hit the drums in their sweet spot. Proof of that is the sound they got on those magic albums. They knew how to play to the mic when they recorded. This IMO is not mentioned enough. Through my own experience this is of paramount importance, probably the most important of all.
Totally agree. I once was doing front of house for a street festival and we had a backline set up with the same kit miced up and it blew me away how different each drummer sounded. One set it was fire, I felt like some of the best drums I had done the whole weekend and the next set with the same exact mix,just a different drummer. It fell apart and I was all over the place trying to fix it. It was all in the drummers touch. I don't think this is understood by most. It's the most important part of any drum recording is the drummers touch and feel. A great drummer can make a crappy kit sing, and a crap drummer can make a high end kit sound like trash. No drummer can make shitty cymbals sound good.
Very informative video and clear presentation. Thanks.
+keeelane Glad you liked it!
I actually liked the effect with the mic placed right at the edge of the cymbal.
I've used it as an effect. It's one of the cooler sounds you can get from the kit. I think it was a downtempo electronica tune that I used it for.
What microphones did you use?
okay need this video with Simon Phillips playing - or Trilok Gurtu
lovely feel. Wish you lived near me in the UK. Very informative Film by the way.
Thanks, yeah wish I could make it over!
Just watching your films now for the first time. I like your style of presentation - very straightforward. I've just got a DP 24; so getting to grips with some very elementary recording issues, like compression. I play guitar - electric and acoustic, the music is all quite rootsy. so these techniques you're posting are incredibly useful....feels like a bit of a mountain to climb though! Thanks Again.
Hi, thanks for info. What mikes are you using for overheads ?
Melanie de la Cour Hi Len. The overheads are CAD m179. I don't use them for overeheads a whole lot as they are a brighter palette than if I were to use my ribbon, but they serve a fair mic to use for a demo as it's affordable.
Hi Ryan,
love your videos! Do you think the Glyn Johns method is a good idea in a not so great sounding room? Could dampening the room improve results? I have limited mics/inputs on a Tascam 388 to record an Americana/Folky band. Thanks!!
+Eric Davidson Hmm, I havn't had luck with Glyn Johns recently. To me it's just very hard to pull off when the side mic is that low. I would get a mono overhead as close as you can without it getting hit by the drummer, and then perhaps an over the should mic. In bad rooms, watch out for phasing of the snare with the ceiling and splat from the cymbals. That would give you better results that could mean a big deal for mix time.
Great video! Thanks
Very nice video dude! only have one question.. could i use two diferent mics to record with this technique? or it has to be with both same mics? thanks!
+Tomas Montanaro Go ahead and try it. You are going to have a difference in sound from the two different angles, and the cymbals and kick drum in particular will sound different at the over the should position. Try to get two mics that have similar low mids at 200-400 Hz so the body of the snare drum is centered.
+creativesoundlab Does it have to be large condensers, or would small work just as well?
+Tomas Montanaro can sometimes work better. Its less natural stereo field, but the more different, the less phase issues, and you can even be selective like one to suit floor tom, blocking the ride from overwhelming, whilst the other tuned more for the crash.
I wouldn't go too far and get mics right at the opposite side of the spectrum. You can use a lot of different things as overheads as long as it suits the mic pattern you want, large condensers are favoured though, but i've heard of small condensers, dynamics, even ribbons used to great effect in just about any polar pattern.
Hey friend, I've been shooting out overhead placements in my small (11'x20' w 8' ceilings) room, and I've found so many issues in placements where I like the snare imaging and cymbal sound but get an unusable kick panning.
I try placing the mics equidistant from the snare and the kick so the phasing isn't weird, but often times the left mic (the one to the drummer's right) gets a more focused attack on the kick and it's impossible to correct with EQ. Any tips on how to avoid this?
The best way to avoid that issue is to use a near coincident or coincident method, like XY, or ORTF.
this technique avoids problems with phase cancellation?
The snare should be fine with the phase of both mics. As with spaced pair, you'll have many other elements that are not phase coherent.
upped my game. i never knew about this technique.i had no idea!
i love being old and naive
Excellent information. Thank you
Thanks!
Brilliant informative video, really appreciate it!
+bleek blaw Thank you!
nice Method, did you pan the two mics and how? or are they just Center?
I pan the mics out about half way. So 50%
thanks! Nice Stereo Image.
Thanks! I'm actually editing this weeks episode about Glyn Johns where I don't be so critical of it :)
ahhh .. the good old cymbal strobe .. or is it a cymbal wah? .. that's how I always heard it .. not as a panning but like .. strobing
love it! great info great playing
Thanks!
What overhead mics are those? They sound great
+Brent Beachtel Those would be the CAD M179s. It's what I had to use until I got a pair of the NT2000, which I like better.
The "shoulder mic" is a great improvement. If you add a Shure SM57 in the middle of the drum set (the so-called "Wurst" by Moses Schneider: ruclips.net/video/__Bh3D_Pvt8/видео.html), it's better to move the top overhead mic away from the snare and above the hi-hat since you already have enough snare and toms on the "Wurst".
Is this one called recorderman mic technique?
Not really, only if both mics are equally placed to both the kick and snare.
creativesoundlab I see, that's what I wanted to know, thanks for the video and I appreciate the clarification.
love your videos man !
Thanks man!
having messed around with this "Decca Tree"/ Glynn Johns mic set-up I've learned this much...you need: 1. a set of classic Ludwigs with at least a 26" kick with both heads in tact ...no laundry, no muffling, no holes....2. you need a KILLER room...3. spendier microphones that most of us can't afford in our home set up...otherwise it sounds like swatting cereal boxes
Yeah, very true. I've been arguing that the Glyn Johns is not the best set up for people with imperfect rooms.
well I actually have a classic set of Ludwigs with a 28" kick....LOL....in a very small room that is lined with corrugated wood , so i can get a very good room sound in here....but I still prefer close mic'ing over the 3 or 4 mic set-up....with only 3 mics i found it necessary to flip the phase on the kick, but with close mic'ing , I just cut everything below 500hz on the overheads and bring them in a little closer to my cymbal array....this takes care of all the phase issues with the kick and toms, even the snare....the snare mic very tight for more bump and the tom mics out by the rims and up about 6" pointed towards the center....which is still very old school, except for the roll-off on the overheads....i use no muffling whatsoever and can get pretty much any drum sound I want from jazzy to full-on Bonzo
6:33 Boom! Danger Zone! You know, Kenny Loggins, Top Gun....pretty much the greatest song ever.
+Timothy Valles Dude, that really made me laugh hard. So funny!
What video editing program do you use?
+Fire on McGinnis I use Reaper and Live. Still getting to know Reaper.
just found your videos. Great work!
thecrashharder01 Thanks!
I like using glyn John's method and single mono over space pair for overheads. just curious how do you pan glyn john. or do you pan at all?? I find myself panning the top mic slight left and the shoulder mic slightly to the right..what about you? or do you not pan at all and let the mics placement pan naturally..
Asim Kinhnarath Yes I pan about half way out.
+Asim Kinhnarath I think Glyn panned the OH right 3 oclock and floor tom mic 9 oclcok left.
Sweet! Very good info🙂
and yet, no one is returning their copy of Who's Next! I'm not so sure it's really a "problem" unless you make it one. But I DO know that that closer in placement isn't nearly as nice an image.
Great vid, but, isn't the "phasing" of cymabls what we are supposed to hear? When we stand about 10 ft. in front of the drummer.
Excellent video, thank you.
***** Thanks!
Very cool. Love Glyn John's sound. You've got a great feel in your playing, btw. Dig it.
This "problem" is the actual phase of the cymbal going in and out as the cymbal turns up and down, the upper side of the cymbal makes positive waves, and at the same time the underside of the cymbal makes negative waves, that's why in the middle where they meet they cancel, so theres barely any sound, so, there are easy ways to avoid that:
-Raise/lower the microphone so that when the cymbal moves up and down it always shows the same face to the mic.
-Raise/lower the cymbal so that when the cymbal moves up and down it always shows the same face to the mic.
-Raise/lower the cymbal and microphone so that the cymbal always show the same face to the mic.
Your goal is that the cymbals always show the same face to the mics so they never flip phase.
couldn't you just raise the left hand mic up so it's not in that danger/panning zone, and then adjust the right hand/overhead mic accordingly?
Yeah, that was my solution for it at the end of the video. Traditional approach is a lower mic though.
Creative Sound Lab yeah i just mean with out putting so behind the drummer. more or less the same spot as normal, just higher up
My experience with just moving the mic up, is that I then get to much of the crash/ride in that mic.
I never heard anyone else about this, but i've had issues with it as well, even with the "recorderman" setup, with the mic over the shoulder. It's a pity because i like the tightness of this aproach. I stopped doing it and now i mostly use ORTF' ish setups.
Yeah, I really use Blumlein and ORTF a lot here. Spaced pairs like this really open up a lot of issues very quickly and it can take a lot of time to mess with.
Great video! Thanks for posting.
eimidioskouroi Thanks!
I has a learning student of a recording student I much prefer Glyns method as it's a proven method! I I much prefer engineers with experience long before you were born - DUDE!
really appreciate this.
+I DONT CARE Hey thanks for saying that! Glad you got something out of it.
Isn't this called The Recorderman Technique?
MeTuLHeD The recorderman has to be measured and looks a bit different. The two are close, your right.
+MeTuLHeD I think the big difference is that the recorder man technique tries to get both overheads equidistant to both the kick and snare, which is way more constrictive. I could be wrong though.
+Lukas Thielmann
I've played around with recorderman a lot way back when, but what I ended up doing mostly was something very much like the setup in the video. The moment you're trying to get everything on the drums in phase is when you start loosing your mind. I've even time shifted tom mics to fit until I realized I wasn't getting anything done.