Dude, I won't copy paste this comment on every of your video so I do it on this one... But damn, thank you so much for what you do! Your content is invaluable, your knowledge is so inspirational and your guests are able to share the passion for music, recording and all the stuff on a such brilliant way! Big support, and much love from France, that's all I got to say!
I mean this is great, but I don't expect the guy who was there when it actually happened and being featured in this video to specifically talk about this technique... not to remember what the heck he did...
Two pieces of yarn, one taped to the snare center, one taped to the middle of the kick where the beater hits. Put the overhead mic two drumsticks up to start. Take both yarns stretched taut to the point where they meet at the OH mic. Keeping them stretched taut, find the same place where it would be over the drummer's shoulder.
Sounds great although there is very little hi hat. I have seen people use this technique but with the hi hat side overhead pointing directly down which seemed to help.
Very impressed with "The Anointed Recorderman Technique". It sounds great! Any low end pull would easily be remedied with a "Mono Maker", if needed. Love the sound of the brass with the AEAs as well. Dark and rich, as a good brew should be.
Best way to center the kick and snare simultaneously is to use a long piece of string or guitar cable held in place on the kick with the beater and held in place on the snare with your left hand; use your right hand to sweep the slack up to the mic over the snare, then over your right shoulder to find all points that are equidistant to both kit pieces.
The ribbons as overheads sure do take any harshness out of the cymbals, I think that depends also on how hard the drummer is hitting those which can make a huge difference of course if we don’t use ribbons. Cool vid.
Great video . I love how even the creator of this technique at one point while setting it up was like how the hell do I do this ??? That's exactly how I felt trying this technique years back....equal distance from the kick and snare , how in the world do you even do that ..??
diego mayfield Draw a line between kick and snare and create the perpendicular bisector. Then on this line, get them equidistant from the first line. Boom equidistance from kick and snare :)
I assumed Recorderman gave himself his name :P I was actually on gearslutz during that time, used that technique a bunch, and had no idea Mixerman was involved (but really loved his daily adventures/book). Now all of the sudden learning about the origins of this and who Mixerman actually is.... really cool/strange nostalgic feeling ^_^ Thanks for the great videos guys.
It's a great technique. I used it a lot last year, but with LDC cardioids primarily and placed higher than you showed us here. Results very impressive and I do not have any problems with snare or kick shifts in stereo field. Will try ribbons next session :) Thanks guys!
Keep the good work man! I think that your channel is one of the most informative here in RUclips. I'm very glad that I've found you! Cheers from Brazil!
Have you tried cutting a hole in the pipe, putting a mic stand in and clip on the mic inside the pipe? Would be a cool effect. Both just inside the pipe faceing outward, in the middle of the pipe, or maybe faceing backwards catching the ”return”? An omni would be wierd! Or a piezo on the pipe!! Great video!
Hey. Love your videos. Do you think you could make a video explaining what exactly compression is, how it works, and what it does? It's one of the things I have found difficult to wrap my head around. I feel like you would, as always, do a fine job at explaining. Anyways, keep up the great work!
Yeah, the room mics were much brighter and Eric was saying it was a very nice contrast to the darker ribbons. The ratio of shells to cymbals is all about the tone of the mic. A bright mic would be a different story.
V Interesting to see just how 'across the kit the mics are pointed, did you notice any effects worth mentioning from changing the way the mics point, in addition to where they're placed?
Oops, my bad - apparently they are AEA N8s as mentioned below - not common this side of the pond, Royer are a little more established. I have used the 101s, and given they are half the price or the classic 121s, they sound really good.
I love seeing Mixerman in your video's. I love all of his books. They proudly sit on top of my monitors lol. Also I love this technique. I'm curious why he thought the bottom mic on snare especially brought out the fullness of the kit blended with the OH's. Thx :)
I personally like a bottom mic on the snare when using a dynamic on the top. The top gets the beef, the bottom picks up the brightness. Make sure to reverse polarity on the bottom mic relative to the top mic.
It almost looks like the mics are creating a line that is perpendicular to the kick/snare center-of-the-kit line from the Massenburg/Weathervane schools of thought. "Schools of thought." I sound like an asshole. Anyway, I've did something similar with Cascade Fatheads recently on some drums I recorded for a folk/punk thing. I dug how it came out, for sure. It was a 4 piece kit and, similar to yours, my mics were basically over the outside corner of both toms and equidistant from snare (I didn't measure the kick but it sounded pretty central). Toms sounded good enough to where I could have gotten away without tom mics (but I used tom close mics for some added lows and punch on most of the songs) I also used a middle overhead directly over the snare (equidistant with the other two overheads) pointing at the kick beater because I wanted to see what that position would give me. With an SM7B in that spot, it gave me a cool snare tone without a lot of cymbal harshness. I think I ended up low-passing to reduce more of the brightness anyway. Cool video and cool explanation of the technique! Thanks for sharing the ideas!
Ryan...can we get a better idea of the placement of the ribbons...?...The snare mic looks like it over the rack tom pointed at the share...the floor tom mic appears to point at the snare/kick...that would be very helpful...!!!
How about a dead-simple punk rock 3 mic *MONO* technique? Kick, snare, one overheads, all into a mono mixer to record to one track, leaving 3 for bass, one guitar, one vocal? Depending on the sound I'm looking for, I will try different techniques with 1, 2 or 3 mics, all going to one mono track on tape, but certain phase issues can pop up between the snare and the one overhead, and I don't even recognize it until it's recorded (to one track, so I can't just flip the phase on one or the other). If I get it right though, and then record bass with an aggressive scoop at around 600 to 750 Hz and peaks at like 90 and at 2.5K, then record the guitar middy and the vocals kind of bright, it fits together in a way that sort of sounds like a live performance in a really good room.
Hi Ryan! I really looked at this technqiue but I have no mic paired, only one ruban mic an one condenser mic for overheads and the ceiling of my room is 1.90m from the ground. What do you thing of using a ribbon microphone above the shoulder and a condenser mic above the snare/tom for recorderman technique ? Thanks in advance ! ; )
That sounds pretty great! I know this must have been mentioned in other videos‚ but what's the name of those ribbons? Also! Has anyone tried muffling figure-of-eight condensers to aproximate a ribbon frequenc response?
We wanted more low end information because the mics were kind of bright. The room mics were just an afterthought, and you have to remember, when you're recording drums on a project, you have the context of a production and a band. Pulling tones for a demonstration like this are a bit more arbitrary. Really, the important part of this video is the overhead placement. How you decide to supplement those with close mics after that is really up to you.
Hi Eric and Ryan. Thanks for reply. I have tried many configurations of room mics and never thought of XY pointing down. Will definitely have to try that and the Recorderman Technique at my next drum session. Thanks once again guys!
I thought the floor tom was a little distant. It improved quite a bit once you compressed the OH's though. I traditionally set the OH's about the same except I don't worry about centering the kick. One mic is over the snare, the other is directly above where the 2 floor toms meet, equidistant from the snare. The spot mics end up much hotter than the overheads so the kick and snare end up well centered. All that said, I am moving towards XY or ORTF for overheads. My room is small enough that walls and ceilings can cause issues. Putting the mics coincident or at least close with ORTF lets me get them further from walls and also gives the drums more punch similar to mono but with some stereo depth
The crashes seem to be pulled closer to the center too. The one closer to the floor tom sounded a little to the right too. Not a big deal, just something I noticed
Definitely. Only reason it somewhat bugged me was because I could see the crash on one side and hear it a little more on the other. In a track with no video I would never notice.
I wasn't wearing headphones, but it seemed to me the snare was pulled a little to the left. Didn't notice the kick being panned noticeably. Either way, the end result sounded very good. The ribbon mics you used are the n8's, right?
Do you have a "price conscious" bang for your buck recommendation? A "lowest price point" Ribbon or stereo Ribbon mic you've maybe used to great effect? Also: do you own other ribbons and if so: which do you tend to use in a given application? Cheers,
I use ribbons now like I used to use my 414. When I first started that 414 (B-ULS) got a lot of use because it was a flat mic and you could stack a lot of things. I think ribbons have the same type advantage. They are kinda dark, but you can use mic positioning to get the sounds you want, and they EQ well.
Jeremy, I have been using T-Bone RM700s for a while now - they are exceptional for the price, and great at making a sharp room sound balanced. Also great on amps.
I used the recorderman technique to great effect on my last album, generally really pleased with how it came out. The only thing I had some trouble with dealing with was that the cymbals and hihat were a bit too loud. The hihat was also a fair bit brighter than the crashes, even though we chose some pretty dark hihats and bright crashes. I didn't really have much in terms of expensive mics, I used a pair of AKG 120's as the overheads, I guess they add to the brightness as well. Any tips on getting the cymbals down a bit? Does it have to do with mic distance from the kit?
Joeri Braams This is why I like ribbons for the drum overheads. They don't pick up much information above 16k and as a result they tend to sound dark. We are boosting the top with a Pultec-style EQ on those ribbons. Also, this technique can be tough if the drummer tends to hit his cymbals harder than the skins, and/or if the cymbals are exceptionally bright. If you don't have ribbons available, and the drums are sounding out of balance with this technique, then you need to deal with it mostly at the source. Maybe knock the cymbals down a bit with some tape, or boost the low end in the overheads, placement of the cymbals (of their riding high, then they will be much closer to the mics than the kit itself). Enjoy, #mixerman
Joeri, as Eric mentioned, a recording technique can only be as good as the performance. If you need lighter cymbals and hi-hats, get the drummer to play lighter, change sticks (hot-rods are great on hats) or even use brushes. I always have a selection of sticks with me when I'm recording or producing drums, and that sometimes involves wrapping sticks up in J-cloth with duct tape to get just the right amount of sharpness from each hit.
I can give you a list of 30 records recorded using this technique from much of the Wrecking Crew tracks for Motown artists, through Led Zep, Neil Young up until Pete Dougherty and Babyshambles in which we used the very technique
Hey, last question haha, i was wondering were did you guys exactly aim the overheads, in the video it looks like it's not 100% centered on the tom and low tom, could you talk a little bit more about that positioning? Thanks, this is the best channel on youtube.
Thanks man. 5:35 shows a little how the back mic is pointed. It was pointed toward the back of the kick drum. The front/over head was over the rack tom but pointed towards the snare. You can see that in the set up shots.
CSL video with a grammatically incorrect title, a little over 15 minutes, with Mixerman too. If this can't bring my mood up, then I'm gonna have to get some drugs.
"The Real Story from the Recording Session it was Invented" is missing a preposition. Like, "the session it was invented *for*" or if we *really* want to be English major grammatically correct, "the session *for which* it was invented" would be the *truly* correct way to go. Not that it actually matters, I'm just in a cynical mood, if you'd been with me all day, you'd understand.
Yeah the phrasing is kind of weird. Put an "at" at the end of the phrase. "Recorderman Technique - The Real Story from the Recording Session it was Invented at" Great video by the way! Cool info. I just subscribed! I think I'm going to get myself a pair of Coles as well. The AEAs sound awesome too
Recorderman Technique - The Real Story from the Recording Session "in which" it was Invented or Recorderman Technique - The Real Story from the Recording Session that invented it
Those ribbons sounded killer! The toms and snare sounded fat/punchy...hard to describe but the head strikes had more bounce/pleasing resonance: I'm learning my adjectives: loved the demo-and the story about its convoluted Internet presence or it's true origins. Thanks again and congratulations on creating the authoritative reference on the recorderman technique. What ribbons are you using good sir?
Creative Sound Lab yeah, there werent as many mics as this recorderman, but overhead placement is positively same as in this video, and its a bit different with your glyn john video. By the way, your rope for measuring distance from bass drum is very useful practically. I believe in watching your chanel has a lot of more advantage than any course or college for engineering. I dont know how do i thank you very much.
also, I just learned the REAL way to do this for the first time, so thank you both!! Goes to show, you don't always get primo info from gearslutz, though it is pretttttty much the best place to learn outside of youtube and real life haha
Thanks. I've tried this technique a couple of times before and initially assumed hard pan. When I did though, the kick seemed to completely disappear. I might have set it up wrong but panning half way seemed to solve the problem.
I believe Ryan soft panned them in this video. I almost always hard pan my OHs on an organic kit. In response to your kik disappearing (I guess you edited it out), If the kik is disappearing then it might be 180 degrees out of polarity. Anytime anything disappears or loses low end, that's a polarity issue.
Thanks Eric. I'll check that out. It was an old session, kind of early on in my recording, but I think I'll dig it out and check that polarity. That hadn't occurred to me at the time.
SDCs can be great for this technique because they really pick up off-axis information well. They're going to be much brighter though, and you may have to deal with that at the source. Regardless, the advice is always the same. Use what you have!
Just brilliant! Those ribbons sound great. I feel the overall drum tone could be a tad brighter to be in a rock mix, but that's what Pultecs are for right ? :D
Yeah, we used the pultec EQs, the EQP-WA, to add in the high end. We didn't spend a whole lot of time on it so it's possible we would do it a little different if in the context of an actual song.
I personally wouldn't actually record them any brighter. Also, you have to understand that the audio does take a bit of a hit from the RUclips processing. I find the clips come back a bit duller. Regardless, that's a perfectly appropriate brightness for tracking. Given that we tend to prefer the brighter source in comparisons, you want to avoid situations where you have to knock down the top end on your recordings. It's always a drag as a mixer to deal with a recording that's too bright.
@@mwdollar Is it when the drummer can adjust at will the intensity of one part of the kit while the others stay the same by increasing or decreasing the level of attack?
@@GOLDSMITHEXILE Yes the idea is to deliver an almost a premixed sound for the engineer. Kenny Aronoff is an excellent example of this. That's why he is an A list call. The hits on hats, kick, snare, tom and cymbals are so even it sounds like samples almost. Then the engineer has A LOT less work to do fighting problems.
The drums sound pretty good, but the cymbals don't have enough presence, I thought. The hi hats were barely audible. If you start putting bass, keyboards, guitar, etc., on top, I think the cymbals would almost disappear in the mix as well. Cymbals can sound about right with just the drums isolated, but can quickly fall off in the mix when other instruments are added. Just my thoughts.
Cymbals shall be raised higher and additional mic on top of hi hat in that case. I don't know what hi hat is in use but more presence in a mix in such recording configuration comes from lighter top/heavy bottom hats (ie Zildjian new beat, sabian AA regular etc.)
I think that non-crispy cymbal thing is because ribbons are used. What would happen if you put condensers there ?!? But then again, it also depends on the context - the song & style the kit is used for.
I think the reason that he used ribbon mics is because the have a smoother, less harsh high end, and he also started at the end of the video that they have more low end than a large diaphragm condenser. With overheads, it seems to me that it is always easier to boost the high end than to try and remove harshness.
Interesting. I've been using the technique almost exclusively since 2005. My setup is usually very similar to this. Sometimes the one over the floor ends up a bit more over the drummer's shoulder, but often it ends up about where they set it up in the video, so it picks up more low end from the floor and the ride. I don't understand why the overhead over the snare is not pointed down at it though. I feel as though it's missing some directness like this. I wonder if this is really how Eric Greedy set it up and if so, why.
Yeah, I can't say that the set up in this video would have matched what Greedy did, as I included the scene in there that shows us struggling to set it up for humor. With all this stuff, if you know the technique in your room for so many years, then I'm sure we could take some notes from your setup.
The thing is with miking drums is that it greatly depends on the drum setup itself and which part of the tonality you are looking to accent. What works for my situation might not work for yours at all. So in the end we all nudge it to make it work for our current situation. For instance, I personally play with traditional grip, with the snare angled away. That quickly changes the sweet spot for that OH hovering above the snare. Also, I've got a 26 ride now, so all of a sudden there's some low end of a ride that I found I wanted to capture. I heard that the Recorderman setup was sort of taking the Glyn Johns approach and adapting it. I flirted with the Glyn Johns technique for a good while and when I started nudging it into the direction of "fixing" what I thought were the Glyn Johns' weak points, low and behold I found myself nudging it to what is pretty much the OH part of the Recorderman technique. Now this may be a coincidence, or it may just be that Recorderman is simply a quite logical progression from the Glynn Johns technique. I find Glyn Johns' technique can work well PROVIDING you have a simple four piece kit with ideally a single ride and a crash at the tom. Getting the ride/floor level/tonal balance right can be tricky, but it can work (but usually in favour of one over the other). Recorderman, on the other hand, can give a more balanced, more true stereo image of the kit, perhaps sacrificing a tad low end from the floor tom, but gaining a better ride sound and facilitating for a larger setup of drums and cymbals, which it will represent quite naturally. It lends itself particularly well to use as full range overhead sound with spot mics blended in to taste kind of drum mix, as opposed to the high passed OHs blended in with the spot mics approach. I like it, I've used it from singer songwriter to progressive metal. It's still my go to go to :D Thanks for doing the video!
While this is a great technique for having a balanced drummer, If i had any 4 mics, I would still set up a 3-mic Glynn Johns technique and then add the close snare mic, since balanced drummers are few and far between! LOL.
For an example of Glyn John’s drum mix technique, listen to any Led Zeppelin album up until Houses Of The Holy. Glyn’s mix technique plus a stair sell at a country mansion is what makes that John Bonham sound, when Bonham is playing drums.
*invents recorderman technique* *doesn't know how to get mics equidistant from both kick and snare* *doesn't know what part of the kick the distance is measured from*
@@ThePdeHav umm..maybe? If every single engineer that worked there really did use exactly the same technique, it's a shame that the "Snakepit drum mic" technique isn't widely known.... It's not completely impossible that someone may have used the same technique somewhere else previously, but that's not really the point. Glyn Johns and Recorderman (as they are now known) are different mic setups.
I usually love your videos, but this was terrible. 'Mixerman' spent a lot of time making sure we knew this was invented on his session, and that he was now about to show us exactly how it's done, and then when it came to the crunch he actually wasn't sure! Not surprising since it seemed he was just full of self-promoting hot air. He didn't even know if the measurement was taken from the bass drum beater or the rim - unbelievable (and the video didn't make it clear either!). He didn't invent the technique, someone else did, and it became embarrassingly obvious he didn't really take careful observations of how it was done, yet here he is trying to own it. Also, as a producer/mixer how did he not know to use a mic lead instead of string or sticks to measure distance - good god, basic stuff. There were so many inconsistencies in his explanations; he'd say one thing, then later say almost the opposite - it was laughable really. Too busy pumping himself up I fear. This was painful to watch. But anyway, thanks for trying to get the story straight from him. Interesting the hihats didn't register.
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Hey man, thanks for making a difference to aspiring musicians. If I could've asked for one channel on RUclips this'd be it.
Thanks for your support!
100% agree with the sentiment
Started this video when it came out, got to the end tonight due to this guy's rate of story telling.
Dude, I won't copy paste this comment on every of your video so I do it on this one... But damn, thank you so much for what you do!
Your content is invaluable, your knowledge is so inspirational and your guests are able to share the passion for music, recording and all the stuff on a such brilliant way! Big support, and much love from France, that's all I got to say!
The drums sounded excellent through a phone without headphones. I can only imagine how it sounds on a better listening situation.
This two together is a joy
I mean this is great, but I don't expect the guy who was there when it actually happened and being featured in this video to specifically talk about this technique... not to remember what the heck he did...
Two pieces of yarn, one taped to the snare center, one taped to the middle of the kick where the beater hits.
Put the overhead mic two drumsticks up to start. Take both yarns stretched taut to the point where they meet at the OH mic. Keeping them stretched taut, find the same place where it would be over the drummer's shoulder.
Sounds great although there is very little hi hat. I have seen people use this technique but with the hi hat side overhead pointing directly down which seemed to help.
Its amazing how good it sounds when done right with a drummer who isn't trying to destroy his cymbals
so much knowledge being dropped I love it
this is a nice authentic video. you brought us with you on the experience instead of just teaching what the recorderman is all about
Very impressed with "The Anointed Recorderman Technique". It sounds great! Any low end pull would easily be remedied with a "Mono Maker", if needed. Love the sound of the brass with the AEAs as well. Dark and rich, as a good brew should be.
Best way to center the kick and snare simultaneously is to use a long piece of string or guitar cable held in place on the kick with the beater and held in place on the snare with your left hand; use your right hand to sweep the slack up to the mic over the snare, then over your right shoulder to find all points that are equidistant to both kit pieces.
The ribbons as overheads sure do take any harshness out of the cymbals, I think that depends also on how hard the drummer is hitting those which can make a huge difference of course if we don’t use ribbons. Cool vid.
Great video . I love how even the creator of this technique at one point while setting it up was like how the hell do I do this ??? That's exactly how I felt trying this technique years back....equal distance from the kick and snare , how in the world do you even do that ..??
diego mayfield Draw a line between kick and snare and create the perpendicular bisector. Then on this line, get them equidistant from the first line. Boom equidistance from kick and snare :)
I assumed Recorderman gave himself his name :P I was actually on gearslutz during that time, used that technique a bunch, and had no idea Mixerman was involved (but really loved his daily adventures/book). Now all of the sudden learning about the origins of this and who Mixerman actually is.... really cool/strange nostalgic feeling ^_^ Thanks for the great videos guys.
pretty incredible drum sound you were able to achieve
Thanks Dan!
It's a great technique. I used it a lot last year, but with LDC cardioids primarily and placed higher than you showed us here. Results very impressive and I do not have any problems with snare or kick shifts in stereo field.
Will try ribbons next session :)
Thanks guys!
Nice technique! Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for doing this!
I wish I could've heard the two OH plus kick & snare top. Just those four pics and nothing else.
hes grilled lol
love the cymbals with the ribbons, hate harsh sounding mics on overheads
I really enjoyed this. thank you
Mixerman was a great book! I read it somewhere around 2007 to 2010 time frame? I forget the year, but it was a great book, and I still own it. :-)
Keep the good work man! I think that your channel is one of the most informative here in RUclips. I'm very glad that I've found you! Cheers from Brazil!
This is a great series, I love the expert commentary.
Thanks, and hope you've been well!
Good stuff as always.
Have you tried cutting a hole in the pipe, putting a mic stand in and clip on the mic inside the pipe? Would be a cool effect. Both just inside the pipe faceing outward, in the middle of the pipe, or maybe faceing backwards catching the ”return”? An omni would be wierd!
Or a piezo on the pipe!!
Great video!
Thanks for making this video! Flawless as always!
i had an ear-gasm when that compressor came in
Yeah, nice right. I think it was just a UAD 1176, the black one. Short release times.
Thank you a lot for the video! As an amateur, I find very interesting and valuable info on your channel. Keep up the great work.
Are the x/y room mics pointed at the floor? Was kinda hard to make out exactly how and where they were positioned.
I'm trying this my next session.
Not surprisingly, it sounds amazing.
Excellent, excellent video.
Thanks!
Hey. Love your videos. Do you think you could make a video explaining what exactly compression is, how it works, and what it does? It's one of the things I have found difficult to wrap my head around. I feel like you would, as always, do a fine job at explaining. Anyways, keep up the great work!
I was surprised by the ratio of shells to cymbals in the overheads. With the rooms in the mix it sounds incredible though. Great video!
Yeah, the room mics were much brighter and Eric was saying it was a very nice contrast to the darker ribbons. The ratio of shells to cymbals is all about the tone of the mic. A bright mic would be a different story.
That's awesome, thanks for the great content
Great video.
Thanks!
That beefy snare though... this may be better than bacon (meat candy) awesome guys!
What ribbons for the overheads did you use?
Now it all makes sense!
Thanks man!
Rock!
V Interesting to see just how 'across the kit the mics are pointed, did you notice any effects worth mentioning from changing the way the mics point, in addition to where they're placed?
What ribbons are those?
What ribbons are those? 10:45 Would?
Pretty sure they are Royer 101s
Oops, my bad - apparently they are AEA N8s as mentioned below - not common this side of the pond, Royer are a little more established. I have used the 101s, and given they are half the price or the classic 121s, they sound really good.
How was the panning set on the desk?
It was about half way panned out.
Asking the important questions!
I love seeing Mixerman in your video's. I love all of his books. They proudly sit on top of my monitors lol. Also I love this technique. I'm curious why he thought the bottom mic on snare especially brought out the fullness of the kit blended with the OH's. Thx :)
I personally like a bottom mic on the snare when using a dynamic on the top. The top gets the beef, the bottom picks up the brightness. Make sure to reverse polarity on the bottom mic relative to the top mic.
@8:51 Holding back the urge to say just use an xlr
Ha!
Are the mics panned hard left and right?
It almost looks like the mics are creating a line that is perpendicular to the kick/snare center-of-the-kit line from the Massenburg/Weathervane schools of thought.
"Schools of thought." I sound like an asshole.
Anyway, I've did something similar with Cascade Fatheads recently on some drums I recorded for a folk/punk thing. I dug how it came out, for sure.
It was a 4 piece kit and, similar to yours, my mics were basically over the outside corner of both toms and equidistant from snare (I didn't measure the kick but it sounded pretty central). Toms sounded good enough to where I could have gotten away without tom mics (but I used tom close mics for some added lows and punch on most of the songs) I also used a middle overhead directly over the snare (equidistant with the other two overheads) pointing at the kick beater because I wanted to see what that position would give me. With an SM7B in that spot, it gave me a cool snare tone without a lot of cymbal harshness. I think I ended up low-passing to reduce more of the brightness anyway.
Cool video and cool explanation of the technique! Thanks for sharing the ideas!
I really love the theme music... where can I get that?!
This is amazing haha....haven’t even listened to the result yet.
Ryan...can we get a better idea of the placement of the ribbons...?...The snare mic looks like it over the rack tom pointed at the share...the floor tom mic appears to point at the snare/kick...that would be very helpful...!!!
Hi, nice video! I don't have ribbons. Do you know anything about using Shure ksm32 for overheads? They are pretty dark.
From the horse’s mouth- awesome!
Not too different from Glyn Johns method.
How about a dead-simple punk rock 3 mic *MONO* technique? Kick, snare, one overheads, all into a mono mixer to record to one track, leaving 3 for bass, one guitar, one vocal? Depending on the sound I'm looking for, I will try different techniques with 1, 2 or 3 mics, all going to one mono track on tape, but certain phase issues can pop up between the snare and the one overhead, and I don't even recognize it until it's recorded (to one track, so I can't just flip the phase on one or the other). If I get it right though, and then record bass with an aggressive scoop at around 600 to 750 Hz and peaks at like 90 and at 2.5K, then record the guitar middy and the vocals kind of bright, it fits together in a way that sort of sounds like a live performance in a really good room.
I would always add a distant room mic, because that is the one that gives you the bottom end if you need it - assuming you get the phase right.
Hi Ryan! I really looked at this technqiue but I have no mic paired, only one ruban mic an one condenser mic for overheads and the ceiling of my room is 1.90m from the ground. What do you thing of using a ribbon microphone above the shoulder and a condenser mic above the snare/tom for recorderman technique ? Thanks in advance ! ; )
11:13 That sounds amazing!!
From what I can see on Discogs, Eric Greedy isn't listed in the credits for that Hazy Malaze album Sarafin is referring to!?
That sounds pretty great! I know this must have been mentioned in other videos‚ but what's the name of those ribbons? Also! Has anyone tried muffling figure-of-eight condensers to aproximate a ribbon frequenc response?
AEA N22
Great video and excellent sounds. Interesting that you pointed your room mics down. Could you talk a little about that? Thanks
We wanted more low end information because the mics were kind of bright. The room mics were just an afterthought, and you have to remember, when you're recording drums on a project, you have the context of a production and a band. Pulling tones for a demonstration like this are a bit more arbitrary. Really, the important part of this video is the overhead placement. How you decide to supplement those with close mics after that is really up to you.
Hi Eric and Ryan. Thanks for reply. I have tried many configurations of room mics and never thought of XY pointing down. Will definitely have to try that and the Recorderman Technique at my next drum session. Thanks once again guys!
I thought the floor tom was a little distant. It improved quite a bit once you compressed the OH's though. I traditionally set the OH's about the same except I don't worry about centering the kick. One mic is over the snare, the other is directly above where the 2 floor toms meet, equidistant from the snare. The spot mics end up much hotter than the overheads so the kick and snare end up well centered. All that said, I am moving towards XY or ORTF for overheads. My room is small enough that walls and ceilings can cause issues. Putting the mics coincident or at least close with ORTF lets me get them further from walls and also gives the drums more punch similar to mono but with some stereo depth
Yeah, the compression is used specifically to bring up the toms in the overhead image.
The crashes seem to be pulled closer to the center too. The one closer to the floor tom sounded a little to the right too. Not a big deal, just something I noticed
Yeah, totally. I dig that. If it's too narrow, then it sounds a little bland. Too wide and it's not solid enough.
Definitely. Only reason it somewhat bugged me was because I could see the crash on one side and hear it a little more on the other. In a track with no video I would never notice.
15:45 Epic Pic
I wasn't wearing headphones, but it seemed to me the snare was pulled a little to the left. Didn't notice the kick being panned noticeably. Either way, the end result sounded very good. The ribbon mics you used are the n8's, right?
Which snare is that? Sound PHat!
It's a Premier Olympic snare. Mahogany. 5.5 deep
What microphones did you use on this? Been trying to work it out!
AEA N8 active ribbons
Do you have a "price conscious" bang for your buck recommendation? A "lowest price point" Ribbon or stereo Ribbon mic you've maybe used to great effect? Also: do you own other ribbons and if so: which do you tend to use in a given application?
Cheers,
I use ribbons now like I used to use my 414. When I first started that 414 (B-ULS) got a lot of use because it was a flat mic and you could stack a lot of things. I think ribbons have the same type advantage. They are kinda dark, but you can use mic positioning to get the sounds you want, and they EQ well.
Jeremy, I have been using T-Bone RM700s for a while now - they are exceptional for the price, and great at making a sharp room sound balanced. Also great on amps.
I used the recorderman technique to great effect on my last album, generally really pleased with how it came out. The only thing I had some trouble with dealing with was that the cymbals and hihat were a bit too loud. The hihat was also a fair bit brighter than the crashes, even though we chose some pretty dark hihats and bright crashes. I didn't really have much in terms of expensive mics, I used a pair of AKG 120's as the overheads, I guess they add to the brightness as well. Any tips on getting the cymbals down a bit? Does it have to do with mic distance from the kit?
Joeri Braams This is why I like ribbons for the drum overheads. They don't pick up much information above 16k and as a result they tend to sound dark. We are boosting the top with a Pultec-style EQ on those ribbons. Also, this technique can be tough if the drummer tends to hit his cymbals harder than the skins, and/or if the cymbals are exceptionally bright.
If you don't have ribbons available, and the drums are sounding out of balance with this technique, then you need to deal with it mostly at the source. Maybe knock the cymbals down a bit with some tape, or boost the low end in the overheads, placement of the cymbals (of their riding high, then they will be much closer to the mics than the kit itself).
Enjoy, #mixerman
Joeri, as Eric mentioned, a recording technique can only be as good as the performance. If you need lighter cymbals and hi-hats, get the drummer to play lighter, change sticks (hot-rods are great on hats) or even use brushes. I always have a selection of sticks with me when I'm recording or producing drums, and that sometimes involves wrapping sticks up in J-cloth with duct tape to get just the right amount of sharpness from each hit.
@Marco Migliari Just be good
I can give you a list of 30 records recorded using this technique from much of the Wrecking Crew tracks for Motown artists, through Led Zep, Neil Young up until Pete Dougherty and Babyshambles in which we used the very technique
Hey, last question haha, i was wondering were did you guys exactly aim the overheads, in the video it looks like it's not 100% centered on the tom and low tom, could you talk a little bit more about that positioning? Thanks, this is the best channel on youtube.
Thanks man. 5:35 shows a little how the back mic is pointed. It was pointed toward the back of the kick drum. The front/over head was over the rack tom but pointed towards the snare. You can see that in the set up shots.
Great video :) by the way, what ribbons are those?
Those are the AEA N8.
Thanks
CSL video with a grammatically incorrect title, a little over 15 minutes, with Mixerman too. If this can't bring my mood up, then I'm gonna have to get some drugs.
It's grammatically incorrect? What should it say instead?
"The Real Story from the Recording Session it was Invented" is missing a preposition. Like, "the session it was invented *for*" or if we *really* want to be English major grammatically correct, "the session *for which* it was invented" would be the *truly* correct way to go. Not that it actually matters, I'm just in a cynical mood, if you'd been with me all day, you'd understand.
Yeah the phrasing is kind of weird. Put an "at" at the end of the phrase. "Recorderman Technique - The Real Story from the Recording Session it was Invented at" Great video by the way! Cool info. I just subscribed! I think I'm going to get myself a pair of Coles as well. The AEAs sound awesome too
Overuse of capital letters. Every vid have title/name like that.
Recorderman Technique - The Real Story from the Recording Session "in which" it was Invented
or
Recorderman Technique - The Real Story from the Recording Session that invented it
Those ribbons sounded killer! The toms and snare sounded fat/punchy...hard to describe but the head strikes had more bounce/pleasing resonance: I'm learning my adjectives: loved the demo-and the story about its convoluted Internet presence or it's true origins. Thanks again and congratulations on creating the authoritative reference on the recorderman technique. What ribbons are you using good sir?
Those are AEA N8. We had a little EQ on the top end.
Ive seen john bonham kit with this set up maybe there were no internet back then.
Yeah that's Glynn Johns Technique. Your right, close but different.
Creative Sound Lab yeah, there werent as many mics as this recorderman, but overhead placement is positively same as in this video, and its a bit different with your glyn john video. By the way, your rope for measuring distance from bass drum is very useful practically. I believe in watching your chanel has a lot of more advantage than any course or college for engineering. I dont know how do i thank you very much.
Hey brother, or anyone else who can tell, is that a 58 on the kick?
also, I just learned the REAL way to do this for the first time, so thank you both!! Goes to show, you don't always get primo info from gearslutz, though it is pretttttty much the best place to learn outside of youtube and real life haha
Here's a question: when using this technique, how wide do you pan the overheads? Hard LR? Just off center? Thanks!
We did them about half panned.
Personally, I'd pan them hard. Do not fear the hard pan!
Thanks. I've tried this technique a couple of times before and initially assumed hard pan. When I did though, the kick seemed to completely disappear. I might have set it up wrong but panning half way seemed to solve the problem.
I believe Ryan soft panned them in this video. I almost always hard pan my OHs on an organic kit.
In response to your kik disappearing (I guess you edited it out), If the kik is disappearing then it might be 180 degrees out of polarity. Anytime anything disappears or loses low end, that's a polarity issue.
Thanks Eric. I'll check that out. It was an old session, kind of early on in my recording, but I think I'll dig it out and check that polarity. That hadn't occurred to me at the time.
Do you think pencil condensers will work with this technique? I don't have ribbons ...Great vid!
It would work great if the SDCs are dark. If they are bright, then you will miss having close mics on the toms to get your fullness.
SDCs can be great for this technique because they really pick up off-axis information well. They're going to be much brighter though, and you may have to deal with that at the source. Regardless, the advice is always the same. Use what you have!
Where was the hat? I almost couldn't hear it at all.
Just brilliant!
Those ribbons sound great.
I feel the overall drum tone could be a tad brighter to be in a rock mix, but that's what Pultecs are for right ? :D
Yeah, we used the pultec EQs, the EQP-WA, to add in the high end. We didn't spend a whole lot of time on it so it's possible we would do it a little different if in the context of an actual song.
I personally wouldn't actually record them any brighter. Also, you have to understand that the audio does take a bit of a hit from the RUclips processing. I find the clips come back a bit duller.
Regardless, that's a perfectly appropriate brightness for tracking. Given that we tend to prefer the brighter source in comparisons, you want to avoid situations where you have to knock down the top end on your recordings. It's always a drag as a mixer to deal with a recording that's too bright.
Yes, that makes perfect sense.
Probably you need to brighten them only for a busy mix. That's what I meant in my post, maybe I've phrased it badly.
;)
what does he mean about the drummer being "in balance"?
Not a cymbal basher or a light kick drum hitter etc.
@@mwdollar Is it when the drummer can adjust at will the intensity of one part of the kit while the others stay the same by increasing or decreasing the level of attack?
@@GOLDSMITHEXILE Yes the idea is to deliver an almost a premixed sound for the engineer. Kenny Aronoff is an excellent example of this. That's why he is an A list call. The hits on hats, kick, snare, tom and cymbals are so even it sounds like samples almost. Then the engineer has A LOT less work to do fighting problems.
The drums sound pretty good, but the cymbals don't have enough presence, I thought. The hi hats were barely audible. If you start putting bass, keyboards, guitar, etc., on top, I think the cymbals would almost disappear in the mix as well.
Cymbals can sound about right with just the drums isolated, but can quickly fall off in the mix when other instruments are added.
Just my thoughts.
Cymbals shall be raised higher and additional mic on top of hi hat in that case. I don't know what hi hat is in use but more presence in a mix in such recording configuration comes from lighter top/heavy bottom hats (ie Zildjian new beat, sabian AA regular etc.)
I think that non-crispy cymbal thing is because ribbons are used.
What would happen if you put condensers there ?!?
But then again, it also depends on the context - the song & style the kit is used for.
I think the reason that he used ribbon mics is because the have a smoother, less harsh high end, and he also started at the end of the video that they have more low end than a large diaphragm condenser.
With overheads, it seems to me that it is always easier to boost the high end than to try and remove harshness.
The Ae8 n8s you are using sound fantastic. They cost a small fortune but sound fantastic here.
We added a little EQ on the top end, but in general they sound just like that. Nice full sound.
How baked are you guys? JK. I always reference this vid. Truly informative content.
Eric, AVERSE, not adverse
Thank you William Wittman. LMAO! Yes. Averse.
Jeesh
Interesting. I've been using the technique almost exclusively since 2005.
My setup is usually very similar to this. Sometimes the one over the floor ends up a bit more over the drummer's shoulder, but often it ends up about where they set it up in the video, so it picks up more low end from the floor and the ride.
I don't understand why the overhead over the snare is not pointed down at it though. I feel as though it's missing some directness like this. I wonder if this is really how Eric Greedy set it up and if so, why.
Yeah, I can't say that the set up in this video would have matched what Greedy did, as I included the scene in there that shows us struggling to set it up for humor. With all this stuff, if you know the technique in your room for so many years, then I'm sure we could take some notes from your setup.
The thing is with miking drums is that it greatly depends on the drum setup itself and which part of the tonality you are looking to accent. What works for my situation might not work for yours at all. So in the end we all nudge it to make it work for our current situation. For instance, I personally play with traditional grip, with the snare angled away. That quickly changes the sweet spot for that OH hovering above the snare. Also, I've got a 26 ride now, so all of a sudden there's some low end of a ride that I found I wanted to capture.
I heard that the Recorderman setup was sort of taking the Glyn Johns approach and adapting it.
I flirted with the Glyn Johns technique for a good while and when I started nudging it into the direction of "fixing" what I thought were the Glyn Johns' weak points, low and behold I found myself nudging it to what is pretty much the OH part of the Recorderman technique. Now this may be a coincidence, or it may just be that Recorderman is simply a quite logical progression from the Glynn Johns technique.
I find Glyn Johns' technique can work well PROVIDING you have a simple four piece kit with ideally a single ride and a crash at the tom. Getting the ride/floor level/tonal balance right can be tricky, but it can work (but usually in favour of one over the other).
Recorderman, on the other hand, can give a more balanced, more true stereo image of the kit, perhaps sacrificing a tad low end from the floor tom, but gaining a better ride sound and facilitating for a larger setup of drums and cymbals, which it will represent quite naturally.
It lends itself particularly well to use as full range overhead sound with spot mics blended in to taste kind of drum mix, as opposed to the high passed OHs blended in with the spot mics approach.
I like it, I've used it from singer songwriter to progressive metal. It's still my go to go to :D
Thanks for doing the video!
While this is a great technique for having a balanced drummer, If i had any 4 mics, I would still set up a 3-mic Glynn Johns technique and then add the close snare mic, since balanced drummers are few and far between! LOL.
Funny stuff.
For an example of Glyn John’s drum mix technique, listen to any Led Zeppelin album up until Houses Of The Holy. Glyn’s mix technique plus a stair sell at a country mansion is what makes that John Bonham sound, when Bonham is playing drums.
It might be the headphones I'm listening on, but I heard hardly any hat in the video. Maybe the hat deserves its own close mic?
blacklespaul01 I kinda thought the same thing.
*invents recorderman technique*
*doesn't know how to get mics equidistant from both kick and snare*
*doesn't know what part of the kick the distance is measured from*
No worries here, but tech correct would be "...invented during," or "...invented at," "..invent(0ed in the course of" etc.
Haven't these folks heard of the Glyn Johns 4 mic recording technique that he used on Led Zepplin and many others?
Yep, covered that in several videos along with variations.
9.00mins - we have maths for problems like that! ;)
You do have math, yet you can't write 9:00, properly? Hmmm..
@@morbidmanmusic I live in Finland, fuckface - we write time like that. The colon mark is for signifying the genitive case, arsehole.
Would you like to cuddle?
And read a mixerman book?
hhaha yes
I like it but there's 420 likes and I don't wanna be the one to wreck it.
Drums sound thick. But the cymbals sounded too far away.
Guys, if you have any class please credit the guy who made this his signature drum recording technique - Glynn Johns
Recorderman is similar, but it's not the same technique. GJ doesn't take the kick into account.
@@tapeloop9398 Then is the same as the mic set up used in the Snakepit at Motown
@@ThePdeHav umm..maybe? If every single engineer that worked there really did use exactly the same technique, it's a shame that the "Snakepit drum mic" technique isn't widely known.... It's not completely impossible that someone may have used the same technique somewhere else previously, but that's not really the point. Glyn Johns and Recorderman (as they are now known) are different mic setups.
I usually love your videos, but this was terrible. 'Mixerman' spent a lot of time making sure we knew this was invented on his session, and that he was now about to show us exactly how it's done, and then when it came to the crunch he actually wasn't sure! Not surprising since it seemed he was just full of self-promoting hot air. He didn't even know if the measurement was taken from the bass drum beater or the rim - unbelievable (and the video didn't make it clear either!). He didn't invent the technique, someone else did, and it became embarrassingly obvious he didn't really take careful observations of how it was done, yet here he is trying to own it.
Also, as a producer/mixer how did he not know to use a mic lead instead of string or sticks to measure distance - good god, basic stuff. There were so many inconsistencies in his explanations; he'd say one thing, then later say almost the opposite - it was laughable really. Too busy pumping himself up I fear. This was painful to watch. But anyway, thanks for trying to get the story straight from him.
Interesting the hihats didn't register.
Ditto to all of that.