This is SO invaluable for me! I'm a drummer on a budget who have to work remotely, and while I also did soundboard duty on many shows, I'm not a studio engineer by any mean. This is going to help me upgrade from my current Roland set-up and save quite a lot of time to make everything sounds right! And almost zero phase issues! Brilliant :D
This was extremely helpful to watch and follow along too! Thank you for all the time and effort you put into making this video! Sounds fantastic and I can't wait to try it out!!
Judging by how this is set up, I think this may be the most versatile overhead configuration, in my humble opinion! I think, depending on what kind of music you’re mixing, you can leave all the mics in mono or pan the side mics in stereo, and even add close mics for further enhancement! I don’t know if I can quite pull off those tricks with the other overhead configurations. I’m a fan of it!
We just tried this on one of our recordings. This is the BEST method we have ever seen! EVERY drum comes out- there's no need for any other mics in the toms, snare, or pretty much anywhere else. Who would have guessed? And why didn't we see this a year ago?Trust me when I say, "DO IT THIS WAY." You won't be sorry, at all.
Thanks man! Some very high words there. I personally still use my favorite for overheads, the AEA R88, but this technique gave me the Weathervane sound. There was something to the wide image, but centered low mid overhead spread. I said, "Wow that's the sound".
One thing I've always found fascinating about this technique is that it kind of borrows from George Massenburg's OH method of dividing the kit along the kick/snare axis. The coolest thing about this is that there is actually mic representing that axis sonically. With the Massenburg stuff I've been privy to, he doesn't seem to employ a mic in this position - usually just two SDC overs on either side of the axis. If you'd really like to get crazy, I'd love to hear this OH technique in combination with a Moses Schneider "wurst" mic, or "fat" mic as others refer to it. Could be cool!
That's really interesting. I've done a little bit of the fat/wurst mic a few years ago in a video "Recording drums with one mic" I think it was, and it was that technique.
You did! Which is a great video btw. Did you do it in combination with the Weathervane OH's too though? Cause that's what has my curiosity peaked. I could be crazy, but I feel like the wurst + weathervane OH's could be a monumental coming together of techniques. Some interesting material for a new CSL vid perhaps?
Dude! What a great technique! I will be using it next week recording drums for a ska orchestra! It is going to take advantage of a great sounding room and the drums are gonna sing! Thanks a loooooooot!
Great video! Really got me thinking, thank you. Also (along those lines), I had not thought about how using in-line pads might be cutting the voltage to the phantom power, too. Super interesting!
I've watched this video 2000, of the 32, 745 views. I've enjoyed it every time. Thank you as always. I'm gonna probably use this on a session this weekend with some great mics and pres in a nice big room and a great band. I hope the drummer can tune his kit as well as you always do. Have you used this technique since filming? Have you picked up any new tricks and nuances?
I really haven't. My go-to technique is the Blumlein which is just a simple XY with a pair of ribbons. I use the AEA R88 for that because it's just so easy to nail every time and sounds great. This sounds great too, but I've been using my SDCs on toms so that put this technique out of the running.
Good to know! I actually settled on Blumlein config with some Royer R10s (and Cloud Lifter CL- Z) for OH and KM185s on Toms, N22 on Kick Out, D112 kick in, 57 SnTop, BeyerDynamic M260 SnBtm, and a Flea 47 for mono squash.
This technique has a really smooth sound to it. None of the elements of the kit sound muddy or washy but I did notice the floor tom sounding quiet and/or thin. The hi-hat was maybe a bit quiet as well but had a nice character sort of sound to it.
Yeah, I don't think that even Brian knows that. I think they just go for two toms always. But just try it and keep messing with it. If you figure it out, you would be the first in the world and cutting edge.
I've seen a lot of people complaining about how difficult is to position the 3 mics in a equidistant triangle AND measure them with the kick and snare.
I don't have a ribbon but I do have an AKG C414BULS that I can put in figure 8 that I thought I would try on this for the LD overhead and just use the dynamic Samson kick mic I have on hand.
+bikesdrumsnstrings - if you want to hear a bunch of songs taken all the way to final mix with our technique, go to weathervane music's shaking through site. At the very least, the most recent 10 episodes or so use this method. (If you are a member, you can also download the mixstems to hear the tracks exactly as they ended up in our mixes, in isolation.)
Hi Ryan, Since you've posted this video I've only seen you have been using other methods of overhead recordings for the following videos. What is the reason for not sticking with this technique and why do you use the overhead technique you most often use. Is the the Weathervane Method too time consuming?
Have you tried the same technique without letting the thread slip? I think the reason it works, is because in three mics you don't need absolute perfect phase, but the pencils add more width if they're just a little bit out, which they are now. It won't collapse in mono, because the ribbon is still there.
+Angelo Boltini - One of the last innovations before we published this was the equilateral triangle, which I haven't been able to make work when treating the sdc's like Recordermans. Our original inspiration was my own misunderstood version of Recorderman that I wanted to insert a middle element into. Later, I realized that the key was to start with the placement of that center element and recreate geometricly something relatively like Recorderman, but not exactly. I ultimately like ours much more than Recorderman. Much bigger and more natural.
You could certainly try it. I think find a center of all the toms is key for this particular technique. So perhaps the center line would go between toms 2 and 3, instead of down over the kick. Just a guess as Brian always records with two toms.
This sounds huge Ryan! Could you tell me about your kick drum and high hats in this video? Those are sounds I'm looking to improve and I'm loving the tones in this video. Thanks!
Thanks for this I have never heard of this I don't get to mic drums up as much as I'd like but will hopefully get a kick soon. I will get the guide and this might be answered in this but are ribbon Mics necessary? Thanks for the great channel.
+Musa Henderson To do this technique in same way, yes, because it gets the beefy lows and mid range of the kit and it acts as the center while the SDC act as the side in a mix. But I would try it with any mics you have on hand and see how it works.
+Musa Henderson Hey Musa -- I work for weathervane and tried this technique once with two SM57s as the L and R OHs and a budget medium diaphragm condenser as the center OH. Definitely didn't sound AS powerful as with nicer mics and a ribbon in the middle BUT it actually resulted in a really accurate, even, representation of the kit and was definitely the best i'd ever captured drums in that kind of situation.
+Gabe Greenberg Hey Gabe thanks for being apart of this and sharing your first hand experience with this. I've always wondered what that combo would sound like. Really interesting to hear it was a great result using 57s.
I'm confused. You said the ribbon would create the centre image, and the 2 Rode's the side, but then set up a Rode directly over the snare in a classic mono position? So that's not particularly a side? That's an extra centre? I feel like the if the 3 mics were grouped into a stereo channel it would be right side heavy no? Sounds great mind. Aaaaand my brain has overheated.......
Great vid, just coming back to it now. I have to try this... On an aside, do you have a video about piecing together your kit and decisions made? Would be cool to see...
Hi, happy to meet you Ryan. I found interesting your videos and the logic behind them ( or with them...). For now I only have a question: where can I find the song that open and close your videos? I need to listen to that song, sound very interesting and have a good vibe. Can you help me? Thanks.
Brian and his crew like to use a pair of ribbons that are on the ride cymbal side of the room. The ribbons face each other and are about 3 feet off the ground, and 1 foot apart. They are constantly changing and modifying their techniques though.
Great video Ryan. Love the sound, and well ... the simplicity of it. Get the distances/setup right and the drums will mix themselves. What is that kick drum? Looks similar to the one I had in my very first drum set I ever owned about 45 years ago.
Nice technique, I actually used this on the first drum Demos I ever recorded... although I didn't really know what I was doing and didn't check the distances all that well. Will come back to this video next time I try it. Could you explain what you mean with the pad an the 48V not getting to the mic? I didn't really understand what you meant
+Da Spotz Yeah, for the pad blocking part of the 48v....phantom power goes down the same wires that the signal travels on. So to pad one, you also pad the other. If you use a built in pad on the mic or the pre amp, then you keep the full 48 v going to the mic. This is a pretty new idea to me, and I just decided to stop padding for condensers, so I still have some testing to do and listening to do.
Well actually what the PRE can handle. I think a lot of mics can handle a lot, and most of the time it's the preamp that's overdriving. Rode has amazing headroom in their mics for example, so it's more about the pres. If it were about the mics being overloaded, then I would move the mic away from the source or use a different mic.
great idea! thanx. but only 2 questions. 1 - what if I have 2 rack toms and 1 floor tom? I mean distance between mics. 2 - what distance from drum set to room mics? wanna try today this method
+Vladimir Sergeev Hmm, I might let Brian answer the question about the second rack tom. The second rack tom might be a touch louder than the hi and low tom, but it'll still be in the middle of the toms. That's a great question that I'm curious to know too. For the room mics, the mics in the video are about 6 feet away from the front edge of the drum kit.
+creativesoundlab thanx for your feedback. I appreciate it. I made test record by this method and found that the studio should be acoustical prepared (sorry for my english). I mean damped. otherwise there is too much room in mix
+Vladimir Sergeev - yep. The technique has not been fully fleshed out for other configurations. I intend to as time goes by. Would love it if you would help...
+Vladimir Sergeev -- as far as the distance, it's explained in the document itself, but I start with a distance that the drummer won't hit the mic with drum sticks.
+Chris Ark Yes try it! I'd love to hear it! Part of the sound is having a dark mic in the center that picks up the toms and snare, but I think you should still give it a shot.
Ryan...I'm so luvin' all your presentations...this one so much that I had to go out and replace my cheapy stereo Blumlein with the R88...Question: I have a medium sized room...about 12' long X 11.5' wide X 9'3" tall...I have home made panels just like yours except I use 8lb rockwool...!...They are not splayed out from the wall...(I'll give that a go)...how do I best determine what frequencies need attenuation...? Also, I thing the audience would like to know what your signal chain is...? Thanks...
+Dave Smith Hey thanks Dave! Yeah, just put the panels up and try to get a little space behind them. I try to have a spot in the room where each wall and ceiling is at least treated. The ideal place to catch the bad frequencies is 25% of the way out from the wall, but that is not often practical.
+creativesoundlab Yeah...that would be just under 34" out from the wall...If I don't have to treat both walls...it could work...but the room is only 11.5' wide...!...Thanks for getting back Ryan...!
Do you think using pads on mics is the same as inline pads in regards to reducing phatom power? Good video. I bought these instructions but had a hard time with them because of the up and down distance of the second pencil mic then realigning the triangle between the three
+Jeb McGovern Yeah I think that a pad that is build into the mic, here I used the pad on the NT55, it is designed to reduce it's output without it having an effect on it's performance. So I would use the pad on a mic first, if I don't have then, then a pad on the preamp, and then if I have neither of those an in line pad like I had mentioned.
+Jeb McGovern - yes, when we've aimed for a wider triangle, I've found I have to repeat many of the later steps back and forth in order to get it to fall into place. Once the dimensions have settled into place though it sounds great and works like it would with a smaller triangle. I'd love to some verification from someone else, so please let me know what you think. You can email me your thoughts any time.
Hi Ryan, I just did a session using this the W-Vane technique. Thanks for sharing this! I used a Royer R-101 for the Ribbon ( into an ART MPA II). Two e614 Sennheiser Supper-cardiods for L&R ( into Golden Age PreQ-73's) Atop a set of Gretsch Renown's. What an articulate sound!!......and a very nice change Thanks a gain
I tried to do this today when I had some spare time. I just couldn't get it to work right. I couldn't get the ribbon to be equidistant from the rack tom and floor tom and couldn't get the side microphones to be perfectly equal to form the triangle. I suppose having the mid tom in the way doesn't help. When I did some test recordings, I found that flipping the polarity of the side microphones made things sound worse (which is good I guess, as it means I kinda got those right), but when flipping the polarity of the ribbon, it actually made things sound a bit fuller. It took me a good hour to even get it to that stage, but I'll have to try again to get it right.
Yeah it takes a little time to set up. The first time I set it up, it took about 20 minutes with going back and referencing the instructions. It gets faster in the future.
Creative Sound Lab I tried it again today and it worked a charm! I used my Cascade Fathead II with my Shure KSM137s. Added a D112 on kick and also tried a 57 on snare. It was actually pretty interesting flipping the polarity on the 57, as it actually made the snare disappear, it was insane. That never happens.
+mrmegaguitarplayer I think it's worth a shot, but it won't be quite the exact sound. The center is going to give low end fullness to the snare and toms. Without a dark mic in the center those drums won't have the low end support that gives the technique it's signature sound. But seriously, try it anyhow. This measurement process is a cut above anything, so give it a shot with what you have.
I think this method beats the recorderman or gyn johns method hands down. It has a great open sound. I've wanted to find a way to capture the drum sound on the early Sabbath records, and this might be the way to do it.
does it have to be a ribbon overhead, or could you use something else in place of the ribbon? Im guessing the ribbon was just part of the original sound of the technique?
Look up the NTR's frequency response, it's extended but it's pretty dark, rolling off as much as 10db by 10khz. I have a feeling you could get the same effect with a large-diaphragm condenser (for the extended low end) and a really soft shelving EQ (6db/oct) to make it darker. You might also find that the condenser gives you a better sound without EQ. You won't get the same pickup pattern though.
great tutorial I'm a drummer and audio engineer so I am extra curios about that ride. the Zildjan K, What's the size and or additional model name of it =) Looking to get that great crashable ride sound you've got here. thanx. Cheers from sweden/ Lennny
Also, I have a cool idea for a video! could you do a shootout between some coles ribbon mics and the rode ntr ribbons? Obviously you would need to get your hands on some coles but just a thought! theres really nothing Ive found on the subject!
Great video and interesting technique! Would love to hear a comparison between this and recorderman. In theory your mic's aren't in fase with this method, but hey, in the room your ears aren't in fase aswell.
+ebbulk Yes, your absolutely right. They are not in phase, which made me think this technique was crazy. The Weathervane folks don't know why it works for them on a consistent basis, but they say they've gotten a lot of miles out of it.
+creativesoundlab I hope to try it someday soon. Unfortunately, being a home recorder, I don't track drums often and have only 8 inputs available when I do, so prefer to stick to a 2 oh's and the rest close mic'ed approach. When I'm searching for a more vintage feel I'll be able to experiment more with oh's and roommics and will defenately try this method!
+ebbulk - Recorderman sounds small in comparison, from my experience. I've done simultaneous comparisons and find that the stereo image of recorderman seems tenuous, and the size of the snare and toms can't hold up without that big ribbon mic that we've placed up the middle.
Are you still using this technique? It sounds pretty good. I bet you can get away with panning wider if you use large diaphragm condensers and a ribbon.
Thanks for the video. So for the overheads, is your right overhead pointing towards the snare? And what about the left overhead? It looks like it's pointing down between the snare, tom and crash.
Yeah, I point everything everything in the general direction of the snare, but don't get too nit picking about it. The over-snare mic is pointed at the front edge of the snare, and back rim of the hi tom. The over-floortom mic is kind of pointed at my right knee. I know that the weathervane crew point the mics inward just slightly, but I'm not sure that you absolutely need to. If anything it might be more technically correct to point them the same angle.
creativesoundlab Thanks. I haven't tried out the technique yet but look forward to it. I was watching the video from George Massenburg on how he mics overheads and was wondering if there would be a way to combine the two. They're already pretty similar but I don't think the Massenburg technique has the snare OH directly over the snare.
Nice technique... just one question.. how does it work with a not so good treated room? can I lower the distance of the mics or may I have to choose another different technique? Thanks!
+Luca Ridolfo This technique is pretty good I think. It's better than Blumlein for a bad room. Yes, if you lower the distance of the mics it may help. Also treat the ceiling first as this can have some really bad affects on overheads with the snare drum.
Thanks for your comment! I want to ask you if Recorder man or Glyn Johns technique is drier rather than this method which you have described... I'm lookin for a solution in order to use 3-4 mics and obtaning a nice dry sound
Silly idea,but what if used on lead vocal? But tighter range. I have three mics,but two XLR cables so i can't really try it. I dread plain mono vocals lol, I'm a big stereo fan due to producing and mixing on head phones. Mono compatibility is important,but a little stereo can't hurt to make it sound a little bigger.
+blood lord (Chaotic Sonics) For vocals, I would recommend other techniques besides this one. I've set up room mics on vocals just so I have a real verb sound available. I would recommend something like this which gives you mono compatability on vocals, yet the stereo-ization you talk about using two mics: ruclips.net/video/DvFHifaeFSM/видео.html
creativesoundlab Oh yea I saw that one gave it a like. Thought that was a cool technique. My room is very dry though for that, have stuff everywhere damping the room. I have to figure out how to undamp the room even after cleaning up since it's still kind of damped from the curtains and closets.
+blood lord (Chaotic Sonics) - I've generally found that stereo imaging on a vocal is not a good thing. Any shifting, even a periodic movement of the head toward one side dramatically shifts the position of the voice. Very distracting and tough to mix. (I learned this the few times I tried using mid-side on vocal). It's led me to realize that full utilization of the stereo field actually DEPENDS on some elements occupying the center, and I'm comfortable with the vocal being one of those things. (Reverbs and ambience on vocals can certainly occupy the sides, though.)
How would measuring ensure balance of the toms? What if they are different volumes, since one is about ten time the size (volume). And, when measuring the bass and snare, usually its for phase and you pinch the string so it remains the same distance... So i don't quite understand all this measuring and why its so important when its got nothing to do with phasing!...I mean it sounds good, but just seems a bit arbitrary..............If anything you've ensure that the kick and snare will NEVER be in phase by doing this as you've definitely shited the ratio between them- even if you time-align tracks later... Unless there's some magic in the triangle I am missing...Like they are meant to be equally out-of-phase to create something like a mid/side array effect. A side question though; I often prefer the OHs infront of the kit- and use the string pinch method....if I do that though I can't get a string to the kick beater. Where is good to measure from? The top of the head? The top of the middle of the shell?
+jorgepeterbarton OK you kinda answered in the Q&A video. And are just as confused as I. Seems like there could be some maths involved though, like they are equally out of phase in opposite directions becuase of the triangle.
This may not be the most appropriate place to ask this question, but do you have any experience or tips for overhead miking a kit with 2 kick drums? Thank you!
Gosh I can't say that I have ever done a two kick drum kit. Really rare. An engineer I look up to has said that it's been years sense he's seen more than two toms in his studio.
I've been putting off trying this method for too long. I just purchased the 3 pack, and now I'm committed ! I have a pair of SM81s they should be a nice compliment to a ribbon mic. Do you think that the R88 could work in this situation?
+Malcolm Palm Yeah, you can use the R88, but just one side. I usually use the top ribbon if I'm using that mic in mono, and then point the ribbon directly at what you are recording. The bottom mic will just be hanging out and doing nothing, no big deal.
+Malcolm Palm Yeah, the R88 gives you two XLRs for each of the two mics inside the enclosure. You don't have to use both mics if you are using it for vocal, or guitar, but it's just a huge mic to hang and move around for such a task. Still, it can be done and I do it often.
Hello, great work man. Could you please tell me about your snare/head/tuning.. you've alluded to using ambassadors for batter heads but your snares always sound so dry (in a good way) when hitting rimshots. Mine always sounds ringy whether tuned high or low. Thanks, James.
Yeah, I use the snare side heads, which are the real thin ones as you pry know. The bottom head is tighter than the top by about a 5'th or more. The dryness of the drum can be due to the quality of the drum and baring edge. Supraphonics for example sound warm and kinda dryer than some wood drums. I believe this is because the edge is fairly rounded off, compared to a really sharp edge.
I love your videos. They're making me think in different ways. Most excellent. Do you do patreon? I'd love to support your time! I intend on using this method at my next session but I am short a ribbon.. have you tried this with a condenser set to fig 8? Thoughts?
+Jason Lyle For the ribbon in the middle, I would pry keep it as a ribbon. At least use something dark if you can. A 414 in subcardiod or even omni might work just fine. You want it to pick up the body of the snare and capture a lot of fullness.
Well I had a full weekend of Drum sessions. I borrowed a ribbon. Weathervane was really cool! Didnt work for all tracks, but man did it work on the ones it did! Thanks for the full tutorial!
Great videos, I just found your site and going to look at it all! Side question, What's your honest opinion about the Rode NTR. I've got a inexpensive ribbon (apex) and also the X15 cascade. In the video it looks like you have three NTR's! Is it worth the leap? Thanks for any feedback, I mean insights.
+ciavideoproductions Yeah I like the NTR. I can't speak for how it compares to the ribbons that you have, but it would be a step up in quality. It's got a lot of gain to the mic, and it's very warm sounding.
creativesoundlab Thanks for the reply. I just got my NTR and it is a step up in quality and cost. Lots of bottom but I'm also getting full, warm mid range vs. condensers. Thanks for all your videos, they are very informative and concise. Great work.
For the technique to be true to how the Weathervane folks use it, it would be a ribbon. This is part of how dark that mic is, and it helps fill in the "Meat" of the drum kit, while the SDCs fill in the sides.
hey there! awesome video, you've got a new subscriber for sure. a few questions: 1 - what other mics would you recommend beside the kick drum (bottom snare, room mics, et cetera) 2 - do you have a tutorial on how to mix the audio from this technique? if not, is there a source you could point me in the direction of? 3 - what genres/playing styles (besides say, with a jazz drummer) would you recommend this for? thanks again for the great content.
This technique can used with about any style of music I guess. I know the Weathervane crew do a lot of rock. I think it matters more about drum selection, and cymbal selection for styles of music.
Awesome technique, but this is not a common decca tree?, i mean, an angle of 180 degrees in a equilateral triangle over the drummer`s head, i thought that this drum technique was common to record bands of the 60's, i belive that i had seen this technique in a picture before. Im confusse :/.... the mic in the kick it`s a part of the original arrangement???
+Andres Uribe Gelvez Yeah, t here some similarities to the decca tree, but that's a whole different thing. This is not my own technique, but Brians, and I found it very interesting sounding compared to other techniques. The kick mic is something that I added. Usually Brian will use a mic inside from what I've seen.
I found the place where i saw this method!!!, is not the same but is very similar!!! :D in this article is called 180 deegres: www.drummagazine.com/plugged-in/post/minimalist-drum-miking-techniques/
+Andres Uribe Gelvez Yeah I see what you mean. It does seem like the 180 approach. I know that Brian arrived at this approach by mistakenly sliding his finger on the string when setting up a recorderman, and then another engineer at Weathervane suggested the triangle idea.
Hey bro, great video! I have a question tho, is it plausible to get a similar result with a condenser mic set to figure of 8 instead of the ribbon mic and does it make a difference where the two side mics are pointed at? Thanks! :)
+Milan Jejina (Yeqy) I think it would be more important to go after the tonality of a dark mic, rather than the exact polar pattern that you use. For it, the center is dark and picks up the drums. Most LDC will get a touch bright if you put them in Figure 8 mode.
You definitely got a Bonham-type drum sound from that mic setup. I went from "oh, this is a typical rock drum pattern" to "HOLY CRAP THAT IS BEEFY." So, you know, kudos!!
Wow really cool technique, would love try this. What were some advantages that noticed over a traditional overhead mic techniques? Also since the mics are in mono how did you go about panning the three mics?
+Slightly Drowsy The demo in mono was just to show how the mics are interactive and their phase coherancy. For mixing, put the ribbon down the center, and the two SDCs out to the side by about 40 %.
Sounds good! The ribbon points at the snare *and away since it's polar; is room reflection ever a problem? Where's the ribbon panned; center? And the two condensers create the stereo image? Or since it's a triangle they all work together? Tricky one! Thanks
Yes, the ribbon is panned center, and the condensers are panned out to the sides. Brian has told me that sometimes in mixing the middle ribbon is not that strong in the mix, and they can sometimes rely heavily on those side condensers for most of the drum overhead sound.
Not only is Ryan a great sound engineer & teacher, but man, he is also a great drummer who can lay down a FAT groove.
I can tell he likes Bonham
Very cool! Nice work!
That sounds amazing. Detailed like close mic, but naturally spacious and cohesive like Glyn Johns.
This is SO invaluable for me! I'm a drummer on a budget who have to work remotely, and while I also did soundboard duty on many shows, I'm not a studio engineer by any mean. This is going to help me upgrade from my current Roland set-up and save quite a lot of time to make everything sounds right! And almost zero phase issues! Brilliant :D
This was extremely helpful to watch and follow along too! Thank you for all the time and effort you put into making this video! Sounds fantastic and I can't wait to try it out!!
+lukesuperflyjones Thanks!
Judging by how this is set up, I think this may be the most versatile overhead configuration, in my humble opinion! I think, depending on what kind of music you’re mixing, you can leave all the mics in mono or pan the side mics in stereo, and even add close mics for further enhancement! I don’t know if I can quite pull off those tricks with the other overhead configurations. I’m a fan of it!
We just tried this on one of our recordings. This is the BEST method we have ever seen! EVERY drum comes out- there's no need for any other mics in the toms, snare, or pretty much anywhere else. Who would have guessed? And why didn't we see this a year ago?Trust me when I say, "DO IT THIS WAY." You won't be sorry, at all.
Thanks man! Some very high words there. I personally still use my favorite for overheads, the AEA R88, but this technique gave me the Weathervane sound. There was something to the wide image, but centered low mid overhead spread. I said, "Wow that's the sound".
One thing I've always found fascinating about this technique is that it kind of borrows from George Massenburg's OH method of dividing the kit along the kick/snare axis. The coolest thing about this is that there is actually mic representing that axis sonically. With the Massenburg stuff I've been privy to, he doesn't seem to employ a mic in this position - usually just two SDC overs on either side of the axis. If you'd really like to get crazy, I'd love to hear this OH technique in combination with a Moses Schneider "wurst" mic, or "fat" mic as others refer to it. Could be cool!
That's really interesting. I've done a little bit of the fat/wurst mic a few years ago in a video "Recording drums with one mic" I think it was, and it was that technique.
You did! Which is a great video btw. Did you do it in combination with the Weathervane OH's too though? Cause that's what has my curiosity peaked. I could be crazy, but I feel like the wurst + weathervane OH's could be a monumental coming together of techniques. Some interesting material for a new CSL vid perhaps?
Dude!
What a great technique!
I will be using it next week recording drums for a ska orchestra!
It is going to take advantage of a great sounding room and the drums are gonna sing!
Thanks a loooooooot!
Sure thing!
Love the channel, actually I think it's turning into more of an obsession, so much immediately applicable information. Thank you!
+Serf Crook Dude, made my day!
Such a great demo of this technique ... I have yet to try this but must reserve a session to try this soon!
Great video! Thanks for putting it together! Can't wait to try it out!
I absolutely love the sound of your kit!
Great video, thanks so much for the effort! Could you clearify where the pencil condensers are pointing at? Thanks 👍🍻
Really cool and well put together!
Thanks Simon!
I just tried it and it sounds really great! No phasing problems at all!
+Peter Voigtmann Nice! I'm really glad you tried it.
Great series, CSL!
+Newmindcenters.com Thanks!
very helpful video thank you. I do have 1 question. will this same set up work on a 3 tom set up?
Great video! Really got me thinking, thank you. Also (along those lines), I had not thought about how using in-line pads might be cutting the voltage to the phantom power, too. Super interesting!
I've watched this video 2000, of the 32, 745 views. I've enjoyed it every time. Thank you as always. I'm gonna probably use this on a session this weekend with some great mics and pres in a nice big room and a great band. I hope the drummer can tune his kit as well as you always do. Have you used this technique since filming? Have you picked up any new tricks and nuances?
I really haven't. My go-to technique is the Blumlein which is just a simple XY with a pair of ribbons. I use the AEA R88 for that because it's just so easy to nail every time and sounds great. This sounds great too, but I've been using my SDCs on toms so that put this technique out of the running.
Good to know! I actually settled on Blumlein config with some Royer R10s (and Cloud Lifter CL- Z) for OH and KM185s on Toms, N22 on Kick Out, D112 kick in, 57 SnTop, BeyerDynamic M260 SnBtm, and a Flea 47 for mono squash.
I think R88 might be my next mic purchase after a 441
Just want to throw in that your groove is on point man!
+MikleShnikle Glad I choose to go with Rock Beat #28. Was going to do #23
+creativesoundlab hahaha
Sounds great, very much Bonham sorta sound once you added in the room mics!
This is great stuff thanks Ryan! Trying this tomorrow, will let you know how I get on...
Very interesting indeed! Will give it a go …
This technique has a really smooth sound to it. None of the elements of the kit sound muddy or washy but I did notice the floor tom sounding quiet and/or thin. The hi-hat was maybe a bit quiet as well but had a nice character sort of sound to it.
Yeah, this technique really does sound like the Weathervane crew did it. It's really amazing how it doesn't sound like I recorded this.
Definitely want to try this - really interesting idea
+JimmersThomas Yeah, it blew my mind when I first pulled up the faders.
Brilliant video. Keep up the great work!
+Anthony Gibney Thanks!
Hey Ryan! I am just watching again this nice video, and i´m wondering how to apply this method to a drumkit with more than 2 toms...
Yeah, I don't think that even Brian knows that. I think they just go for two toms always. But just try it and keep messing with it. If you figure it out, you would be the first in the world and cutting edge.
I've seen a lot of people complaining about how difficult is to position the 3 mics in a equidistant triangle AND measure them with the kick and snare.
I don't have a ribbon but I do have an AKG C414BULS that I can put in figure 8 that I thought I would try on this for the LD overhead and just use the dynamic Samson kick mic I have on hand.
That is pretty awesome dude. Sounds good. Nice shuffle too. Would love to hear a processed version of all the tracks too
+bikesdrumsnstrings Thanks man, all these grooves are pretty generic type stuff just to give us something to test the mics.
+bikesdrumsnstrings - if you want to hear a bunch of songs taken all the way to final mix with our technique, go to weathervane music's shaking through site. At the very least, the most recent 10 episodes or so use this method. (If you are a member, you can also download the mixstems to hear the tracks exactly as they ended up in our mixes, in isolation.)
+bikesdrumsnstrings Here's the link that Brian mentioned to hear this technique in action: weathervanemusic.org/shakingthrough
thanks guys
Yess, very nice sounding, nur where the pencils are facing at? Greets.
Those mic pres sound really cool.
Thanks!
Hi Ryan,
Since you've posted this video I've only seen you have been using other methods of overhead recordings for the following videos. What is the reason for not sticking with this technique and why do you use the overhead technique you most often use. Is the the Weathervane Method too time consuming?
Good drumming, great kit, sweet room, natural but fat mic setup. A+
Have you tried the same technique without letting the thread slip?
I think the reason it works, is because in three mics you don't need absolute perfect phase, but the pencils add more width if they're just a little bit out, which they are now. It won't collapse in mono, because the ribbon is still there.
+Angelo Boltini Yeah, that's one of the biggest questions on why this works. I wanted to hear for myself on how well this actually works.
+Angelo Boltini - One of the last innovations before we published this was the equilateral triangle, which I haven't been able to make work when treating the sdc's like Recordermans. Our original inspiration was my own misunderstood version of Recorderman that I wanted to insert a middle element into. Later, I realized that the key was to start with the placement of that center element and recreate geometricly something relatively like Recorderman, but not exactly. I ultimately like ours much more than Recorderman. Much bigger and more natural.
A nice quiet room very helpful with cheap microphones... But with this example mics the quality is better. Really nice and well done technique.
+Francisco Viper Díaz Thank you!
Great sounding drums and great video ..... Would the 3 mic/triangle technique work on a bigger kit with 3 rack toms and 2 floor toms ?
You could certainly try it. I think find a center of all the toms is key for this particular technique. So perhaps the center line would go between toms 2 and 3, instead of down over the kick. Just a guess as Brian always records with two toms.
This sounds huge Ryan! Could you tell me about your kick drum and high hats in this video? Those are sounds I'm looking to improve and I'm loving the tones in this video. Thanks!
I couldn't find the Weathervane PDF. Whats the measurement of the room mics?
I cant find the Weathervane pdf on this technique, any suggestions ?
I like the idea of this, any ideas how it might work with two dynamic mics and a small condenser on the axis? With the bass also mic'd maybe.
Thanks for this I have never heard of this I don't get to mic drums up as much as I'd like but will hopefully get a kick soon. I will get the guide and this might be answered in this but are ribbon Mics necessary? Thanks for the great channel.
+Musa Henderson To do this technique in same way, yes, because it gets the beefy lows and mid range of the kit and it acts as the center while the SDC act as the side in a mix. But I would try it with any mics you have on hand and see how it works.
+Musa Henderson Hey Musa -- I work for weathervane and tried this technique once with two SM57s as the L and R OHs and a budget medium diaphragm condenser as the center OH. Definitely didn't sound AS powerful as with nicer mics and a ribbon in the middle BUT it actually resulted in a really accurate, even, representation of the kit and was definitely the best i'd ever captured drums in that kind of situation.
+Gabe Greenberg Hey Gabe thanks for being apart of this and sharing your first hand experience with this. I've always wondered what that combo would sound like. Really interesting to hear it was a great result using 57s.
Thank you
I'm confused. You said the ribbon would create the centre image, and the 2 Rode's the side, but then set up a Rode directly over the snare in a classic mono position? So that's not particularly a side? That's an extra centre? I feel like the if the 3 mics were grouped into a stereo channel it would be right side heavy no? Sounds great mind. Aaaaand my brain has overheated.......
Nice technique!!!! Sweet Rode ribbon mic!!!
Just be careful kids, most ribbons mics don't need phantom power and it might actually damage it.
+Davi Aquino Yes agreed. I'm always triple checking my phantom power when ribbons are connected.
thanks man , looking forward to setting it up today,
Nice, let me know how it goes!
Great vid, just coming back to it now. I have to try this... On an aside, do you have a video about piecing together your kit and decisions made? Would be cool to see...
What's the name of the ending song?? :O
Hi, happy to meet you Ryan. I found interesting your videos and the logic behind them ( or with them...). For now I only have a question: where can I find the song that open and close your videos? I need to listen to that song, sound very interesting and have a good vibe. Can you help me? Thanks.
sounds awesome, dude
What about room mic placement with this? Thanks
Brian and his crew like to use a pair of ribbons that are on the ride cymbal side of the room. The ribbons face each other and are about 3 feet off the ground, and 1 foot apart. They are constantly changing and modifying their techniques though.
Very cool actually!
Just got a pair of WA-412's and 414's for my studio,running into an m-32
Awesome! It sounds great.
+George Reagan Thanks!
Great video Ryan. Love the sound, and well ... the simplicity of it. Get the distances/setup right and the drums will mix themselves. What is that kick drum? Looks similar to the one I had in my very first drum set I ever owned about 45 years ago.
+Perry Moyses Those drums are 3 ply Slingerland, which from what I understand is early to mid 70's.
Love this technique!
+Shelby Preklas Thanks! Brian and his crew taught me! The triangle idea blew my mind!
Nice technique, I actually used this on the first drum Demos I ever recorded... although I didn't really know what I was doing and didn't check the distances all that well. Will come back to this video next time I try it. Could you explain what you mean with the pad an the 48V not getting to the mic? I didn't really understand what you meant
+Da Spotz Yeah, for the pad blocking part of the 48v....phantom power goes down the same wires that the signal travels on. So to pad one, you also pad the other. If you use a built in pad on the mic or the pre amp, then you keep the full 48 v going to the mic. This is a pretty new idea to me, and I just decided to stop padding for condensers, so I still have some testing to do and listening to do.
That's interesting! Thanks for elaborating. But just to be clear, you only pad when the signal exceeds what the mics can handle (volume wise), right?
Well actually what the PRE can handle. I think a lot of mics can handle a lot, and most of the time it's the preamp that's overdriving. Rode has amazing headroom in their mics for example, so it's more about the pres. If it were about the mics being overloaded, then I would move the mic away from the source or use a different mic.
What are the dimension of your room ?
great idea! thanx. but only 2 questions. 1 - what if I have 2 rack toms and 1 floor tom? I mean distance between mics.
2 - what distance from drum set to room mics?
wanna try today this method
+Vladimir Sergeev Hmm, I might let Brian answer the question about the second rack tom. The second rack tom might be a touch louder than the hi and low tom, but it'll still be in the middle of the toms. That's a great question that I'm curious to know too. For the room mics, the mics in the video are about 6 feet away from the front edge of the drum kit.
+creativesoundlab thanx for your feedback. I appreciate it. I made test record by this method and found that the studio should be acoustical prepared (sorry for my english). I mean damped. otherwise there is too much room in mix
+Vladimir Sergeev - yep. The technique has not been fully fleshed out for other configurations. I intend to as time goes by. Would love it if you would help...
+Vladimir Sergeev -- as far as the distance, it's explained in the document itself, but I start with a distance that the drummer won't hit the mic with drum sticks.
I dont have a ribbon mic but I do have a matched pair of Rode M5's and a TLM 103.... Worth a shot? Thanks for the videos
+Chris Ark Yes try it! I'd love to hear it! Part of the sound is having a dark mic in the center that picks up the toms and snare, but I think you should still give it a shot.
Ryan...I'm so luvin' all your presentations...this one so much that I had to go out and replace my cheapy stereo Blumlein with the R88...Question: I have a medium sized room...about 12' long X 11.5' wide X 9'3" tall...I have home made panels just like yours except I use 8lb rockwool...!...They are not splayed out from the wall...(I'll give that a go)...how do I best determine what frequencies need attenuation...?
Also, I thing the audience would like to know what your signal chain is...?
Thanks...
+Dave Smith Hey thanks Dave! Yeah, just put the panels up and try to get a little space behind them. I try to have a spot in the room where each wall and ceiling is at least treated. The ideal place to catch the bad frequencies is 25% of the way out from the wall, but that is not often practical.
+creativesoundlab Yeah...that would be just under 34" out from the wall...If I don't have to treat both walls...it could work...but the room is only 11.5' wide...!...Thanks for getting back Ryan...!
+Dave Smith Haha, yeah, that's a crazy amount of room that you loose. I would stick with 6 or 8 inches and I think you will hear a difference.
+creativesoundlab Thanks Ryan...!
does it HAVE to be SDCs?
Do you think using pads on mics is the same as inline pads in regards to reducing phatom power? Good video. I bought these instructions but had a hard time with them because of the up and down distance of the second pencil mic then realigning the triangle between the three
+Jeb McGovern Yeah I think that a pad that is build into the mic, here I used the pad on the NT55, it is designed to reduce it's output without it having an effect on it's performance. So I would use the pad on a mic first, if I don't have then, then a pad on the preamp, and then if I have neither of those an in line pad like I had mentioned.
+Jeb McGovern - yes, when we've aimed for a wider triangle, I've found I have to repeat many of the later steps back and forth in order to get it to fall into place. Once the dimensions have settled into place though it sounds great and works like it would with a smaller triangle. I'd love to some verification from someone else, so please let me know what you think. You can email me your thoughts any time.
Hi Ryan,
I just did a session using this the W-Vane technique. Thanks for sharing this!
I used a Royer R-101 for the Ribbon ( into an ART MPA II).
Two e614 Sennheiser Supper-cardiods for L&R ( into Golden Age PreQ-73's)
Atop a set of Gretsch Renown's.
What an articulate sound!!......and a very nice change Thanks a gain
I tried to do this today when I had some spare time. I just couldn't get it to work right. I couldn't get the ribbon to be equidistant from the rack tom and floor tom and couldn't get the side microphones to be perfectly equal to form the triangle. I suppose having the mid tom in the way doesn't help.
When I did some test recordings, I found that flipping the polarity of the side microphones made things sound worse (which is good I guess, as it means I kinda got those right), but when flipping the polarity of the ribbon, it actually made things sound a bit fuller. It took me a good hour to even get it to that stage, but I'll have to try again to get it right.
Yeah it takes a little time to set up. The first time I set it up, it took about 20 minutes with going back and referencing the instructions. It gets faster in the future.
Creative Sound Lab I tried it again today and it worked a charm! I used my Cascade Fathead II with my Shure KSM137s. Added a D112 on kick and also tried a 57 on snare. It was actually pretty interesting flipping the polarity on the 57, as it actually made the snare disappear, it was insane. That never happens.
Would I be able to replace the ribbon with a condenser? Just as I don't really have the money to drop on a ribbon xD
+mrmegaguitarplayer I think it's worth a shot, but it won't be quite the exact sound. The center is going to give low end fullness to the snare and toms. Without a dark mic in the center those drums won't have the low end support that gives the technique it's signature sound. But seriously, try it anyhow. This measurement process is a cut above anything, so give it a shot with what you have.
+mrmegaguitarplayer -- You could try it, for certain.
Thanks for the reply guys! :D
Question, can you use a large diaphragm condenser instead of a ribbon? How would that sound?
Great stuff!!
+Victor Carrillo Yes, see Brian's comments below.
I think this method beats the recorderman or gyn johns method hands down. It has a great open sound. I've wanted to find a way to capture the drum sound on the early Sabbath records, and this might be the way to do it.
does it have to be a ribbon overhead, or could you use something else in place of the ribbon? Im guessing the ribbon was just part of the original sound of the technique?
Look up the NTR's frequency response, it's extended but it's pretty dark, rolling off as much as 10db by 10khz. I have a feeling you could get the same effect with a large-diaphragm condenser (for the extended low end) and a really soft shelving EQ (6db/oct) to make it darker. You might also find that the condenser gives you a better sound without EQ. You won't get the same pickup pattern though.
Problem with ribbon mikes is they can't be used with phantom power on.
Your mixer must have 48v commutable on each input.
Is it possible to get a ribbon mic without breaking the banks? I'm still wondering that
yes. I have a Nady RSM4 that sounds good to me.
great tutorial I'm a drummer and audio engineer so I am extra curios about that ride. the Zildjan K, What's the size and or additional model name of it =) Looking to get that great crashable ride sound you've got here. thanx. Cheers from sweden/ Lennny
+Lennyrapid Hey thanks man! It's a K Custom Dark Ride 51cm (20 inch).
Thank you. Very interesting.
+Molten Monster Thanks!
Also, I have a cool idea for a video! could you do a shootout between some coles ribbon mics and the rode ntr ribbons? Obviously you would need to get your hands on some coles but just a thought! theres really nothing Ive found on the subject!
Great video and interesting technique! Would love to hear a comparison between this and recorderman. In theory your mic's aren't in fase with this method, but hey, in the room your ears aren't in fase aswell.
+ebbulk Yes, your absolutely right. They are not in phase, which made me think this technique was crazy. The Weathervane folks don't know why it works for them on a consistent basis, but they say they've gotten a lot of miles out of it.
+creativesoundlab I hope to try it someday soon. Unfortunately, being a home recorder, I don't track drums often and have only 8 inputs available when I do, so prefer to stick to a 2 oh's and the rest close mic'ed approach. When I'm searching for a more vintage feel I'll be able to experiment more with oh's and roommics and will defenately try this method!
+ebbulk Hey no problem. I have my favorite techniques I use too. This one is in my top 2 or 3 now.
+ebbulk - Recorderman sounds small in comparison, from my experience. I've done simultaneous comparisons and find that the stereo image of recorderman seems tenuous, and the size of the snare and toms can't hold up without that big ribbon mic that we've placed up the middle.
+Brian McTear Yes, the drums sound huge in these tests. I'm really impressed with how big the drums sound because of that ribbon.
Are you still using this technique? It sounds pretty good. I bet you can get away with panning wider if you use large diaphragm condensers and a ribbon.
Well I don't use this technique a lot, because I mostly use my R88 for overheads.
Thanks for the video. So for the overheads, is your right overhead pointing towards the snare? And what about the left overhead? It looks like it's pointing down between the snare, tom and crash.
Yeah, I point everything everything in the general direction of the snare, but don't get too nit picking about it. The over-snare mic is pointed at the front edge of the snare, and back rim of the hi tom. The over-floortom mic is kind of pointed at my right knee. I know that the weathervane crew point the mics inward just slightly, but I'm not sure that you absolutely need to. If anything it might be more technically correct to point them the same angle.
creativesoundlab Thanks. I haven't tried out the technique yet but look forward to it. I was watching the video from George Massenburg on how he mics overheads and was wondering if there would be a way to combine the two. They're already pretty similar but I don't think the Massenburg technique has the snare OH directly over the snare.
Nice technique... just one question.. how does it work with a not so good treated room? can I lower the distance of the mics or may I have to choose another different technique? Thanks!
+Luca Ridolfo This technique is pretty good I think. It's better than Blumlein for a bad room. Yes, if you lower the distance of the mics it may help. Also treat the ceiling first as this can have some really bad affects on overheads with the snare drum.
Thanks for your comment! I want to ask you if Recorder man or Glyn Johns technique is drier rather than this method which you have described... I'm lookin for a solution in order to use 3-4 mics and obtaning a nice dry sound
+Luca Ridolfo Yeah, if you had a mic for kick and snare, I might even go with an XY as close as you can get it, and then mic kick and snare.
Silly idea,but what if used on lead vocal? But tighter range. I have three mics,but two XLR cables so i can't really try it. I dread plain mono vocals lol, I'm a big stereo fan due to producing and mixing on head phones. Mono compatibility is important,but a little stereo can't hurt to make it sound a little bigger.
+blood lord (Chaotic Sonics) For vocals, I would recommend other techniques besides this one. I've set up room mics on vocals just so I have a real verb sound available. I would recommend something like this which gives you mono compatability on vocals, yet the stereo-ization you talk about using two mics: ruclips.net/video/DvFHifaeFSM/видео.html
creativesoundlab
Oh yea I saw that one gave it a like. Thought that was a cool technique. My room is very dry though for that, have stuff everywhere damping the room. I have to figure out how to undamp the room even after cleaning up since it's still kind of damped from the curtains and closets.
+blood lord (Chaotic Sonics) - I've generally found that stereo imaging on a vocal is not a good thing. Any shifting, even a periodic movement of the head toward one side dramatically shifts the position of the voice. Very distracting and tough to mix. (I learned this the few times I tried using mid-side on vocal). It's led me to realize that full utilization of the stereo field actually DEPENDS on some elements occupying the center, and I'm comfortable with the vocal being one of those things. (Reverbs and ambience on vocals can certainly occupy the sides, though.)
Awesome. *request time.....* Now do one with 2 ribbons and one condenser! (please)
How would measuring ensure balance of the toms? What if they are different volumes, since one is about ten time the size (volume).
And, when measuring the bass and snare, usually its for phase and you pinch the string so it remains the same distance...
So i don't quite understand all this measuring and why its so important when its got nothing to do with phasing!...I mean it sounds good, but just seems a bit arbitrary..............If anything you've ensure that the kick and snare will NEVER be in phase by doing this as you've definitely shited the ratio between them- even if you time-align tracks later...
Unless there's some magic in the triangle I am missing...Like they are meant to be equally out-of-phase to create something like a mid/side array effect.
A side question though; I often prefer the OHs infront of the kit- and use the string pinch method....if I do that though I can't get a string to the kick beater. Where is good to measure from? The top of the head? The top of the middle of the shell?
+jorgepeterbarton OK you kinda answered in the Q&A video. And are just as confused as I. Seems like there could be some maths involved though, like they are equally out of phase in opposite directions becuase of the triangle.
What hi-hats are those? They sound super nice.
I think they were 1960s 13 inch Zildjians
This may not be the most appropriate place to ask this question, but do you have any experience or tips for overhead miking a kit with 2 kick drums? Thank you!
Gosh I can't say that I have ever done a two kick drum kit. Really rare. An engineer I look up to has said that it's been years sense he's seen more than two toms in his studio.
Would this work with large diaphragm condensers?
I think so. Try it out and see.
Is this related to the McTear method you mentioned in your first overheads video?
+Luuk Meijwaard Yep! This is the method that I mentioned
I've been putting off trying this method for too long. I just purchased the 3 pack, and now I'm committed ! I have a pair of SM81s they should be a nice compliment to a ribbon mic. Do you think that the R88 could work in this situation?
+Malcolm Palm Yeah, you can use the R88, but just one side. I usually use the top ribbon if I'm using that mic in mono, and then point the ribbon directly at what you are recording. The bottom mic will just be hanging out and doing nothing, no big deal.
+creativesoundlab Oh, cool. I didn't know you could do that.
+Malcolm Palm Yeah, the R88 gives you two XLRs for each of the two mics inside the enclosure. You don't have to use both mics if you are using it for vocal, or guitar, but it's just a huge mic to hang and move around for such a task. Still, it can be done and I do it often.
Hello, great work man.
Could you please tell me about your snare/head/tuning.. you've alluded to using ambassadors for batter heads but your snares always sound so dry (in a good way) when hitting rimshots. Mine always sounds ringy whether tuned high or low.
Thanks,
James.
Yeah, I use the snare side heads, which are the real thin ones as you pry know. The bottom head is tighter than the top by about a 5'th or more. The dryness of the drum can be due to the quality of the drum and baring edge. Supraphonics for example sound warm and kinda dryer than some wood drums. I believe this is because the edge is fairly rounded off, compared to a really sharp edge.
I love your videos. They're making me think in different ways. Most excellent. Do you do patreon? I'd love to support your time! I intend on using this method at my next session but I am short a ribbon.. have you tried this with a condenser set to fig 8? Thoughts?
+Jason Lyle Thanks Jason. Yeah, my Patreon is at www.patreon.com/creativesoundlab
+Jason Lyle For the ribbon in the middle, I would pry keep it as a ribbon. At least use something dark if you can. A 414 in subcardiod or even omni might work just fine. You want it to pick up the body of the snare and capture a lot of fullness.
Well I had a full weekend of Drum sessions. I borrowed a ribbon. Weathervane was really cool! Didnt work for all tracks, but man did it work on the ones it did! Thanks for the full tutorial!
superb
+Nicolas Guerrieri Thank you!
Great videos, I just found your site and going to look at it all! Side question, What's your honest opinion about the Rode NTR. I've got a inexpensive ribbon (apex) and also the X15 cascade. In the video it looks like you have three NTR's! Is it worth the leap? Thanks for any feedback, I mean insights.
+ciavideoproductions (I mean 2 to 4 NTR's)
+ciavideoproductions Yeah I like the NTR. I can't speak for how it compares to the ribbons that you have, but it would be a step up in quality. It's got a lot of gain to the mic, and it's very warm sounding.
creativesoundlab
Thanks for the reply. I just got my NTR and it is a step up in quality and cost. Lots of bottom but I'm also getting full, warm mid range vs. condensers. Thanks for all your videos, they are very informative and concise. Great work.
do you have to use a ribben mic or any mic
For the technique to be true to how the Weathervane folks use it, it would be a ribbon. This is part of how dark that mic is, and it helps fill in the "Meat" of the drum kit, while the SDCs fill in the sides.
hey there! awesome video, you've got a new subscriber for sure.
a few questions:
1 - what other mics would you recommend beside the kick drum (bottom snare, room mics, et cetera)
2 - do you have a tutorial on how to mix the audio from this technique? if not, is there a source you could point me in the direction of?
3 - what genres/playing styles (besides say, with a jazz drummer) would you recommend this for?
thanks again for the great content.
This technique can used with about any style of music I guess. I know the Weathervane crew do a lot of rock. I think it matters more about drum selection, and cymbal selection for styles of music.
What's a good substitute for that ribbon mic?
I have an U87 or a C414. Are those good options?
I would go with which ever has the warmest sound. Perhaps the 414.
But in Omni or Figure-8 mode?
Awesome technique, but this is not a common decca tree?, i mean, an angle of 180 degrees in a equilateral triangle over the drummer`s head, i thought that this drum technique was common to record bands of the 60's, i belive that i had seen this technique in a picture before. Im confusse :/.... the mic in the kick it`s a part of the original arrangement???
+Andres Uribe Gelvez Yeah, t here some similarities to the decca tree, but that's a whole different thing. This is not my own technique, but Brians, and I found it very interesting sounding compared to other techniques. The kick mic is something that I added. Usually Brian will use a mic inside from what I've seen.
I found the place where i saw this method!!!, is not the same but is very similar!!! :D
in this article is called 180 deegres:
www.drummagazine.com/plugged-in/post/minimalist-drum-miking-techniques/
+Andres Uribe Gelvez Yeah I see what you mean. It does seem like the 180 approach. I know that Brian arrived at this approach by mistakenly sliding his finger on the string when setting up a recorderman, and then another engineer at Weathervane suggested the triangle idea.
Hey bro, great video! I have a question tho, is it plausible to get a similar result with a condenser mic set to figure of 8 instead of the ribbon mic and does it make a difference where the two side mics are pointed at? Thanks! :)
+Milan Jejina (Yeqy) I think it would be more important to go after the tonality of a dark mic, rather than the exact polar pattern that you use. For it, the center is dark and picks up the drums. Most LDC will get a touch bright if you put them in Figure 8 mode.
+creativesoundlab Ah, I see... thanks for the tip! :)
You definitely got a Bonham-type drum sound from that mic setup. I went from "oh, this is a typical rock drum pattern" to "HOLY CRAP THAT IS BEEFY." So, you know, kudos!!
+Paco Secada Thanks man!
Wow really cool technique, would love try this. What were some advantages that noticed over a traditional overhead mic techniques?
Also since the mics are in mono how did you go about panning the three mics?
+Slightly Drowsy The demo in mono was just to show how the mics are interactive and their phase coherancy. For mixing, put the ribbon down the center, and the two SDCs out to the side by about 40 %.
Hey! Great video! Can or have you tried replacing the SDCs with LDCs?
+Daniel Silberman I asked Brian the same question. He said sometimes he would use LDCs instead of SDCs. So use whatever you have.
Sounds good! The ribbon points at the snare *and away since it's polar; is room reflection ever a problem? Where's the ribbon panned; center? And the two condensers create the stereo image? Or since it's a triangle they all work together? Tricky one! Thanks
Yes, the ribbon is panned center, and the condensers are panned out to the sides. Brian has told me that sometimes in mixing the middle ribbon is not that strong in the mix, and they can sometimes rely heavily on those side condensers for most of the drum overhead sound.
thank You!