Pontiac 400 Break In with the 1979 Firebird Trans Am! Doesn't go according to plan!
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- Опубликовано: 16 ноя 2023
- Time to get his big bad 400 Pontiac motor broken in! Rebuilt heads are on, new PRW water pump is on, all new timing components are on, and our brand new Comp Cams lifters are installed, let's get it outside, fueled up, and start the always scary flat tappet cam break in process!
Unfortunately this is ALWAYS a scary process, done the right way you either succeed and everything is great, or you fail and you've got a whole lot more work ahead of you. One of the major reasons a lot of people go to roller cam setups is to get away from this issue, and to no longer need high zinc oils. In our case we tend to stay old school on old school builds, especially on cars this vintage and correct.
Here we go, fingers crossed! 
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I appreciate your integrity. You guys are awesome.
Thank you Sir, just trying to show the real world and how this stuff goes, even for professionals. This ain't no TV show!
I appreciate a shop that has KoRn playing.
Always gotta keep up beat and driven when you're wrenching! 👍
Had the same struggles with cams until I changed to Howards Cams.
Isky cam and ClaySmith lifters are your best bet in Hydraulic flat tappets.
Isky might be a relationship we need to start, we happened to know a guy who know a guy or two over there!
Or run NOS from the 1980’s to 1991-92. That is what I have done on the last few flat tappet cams. I have even used an old used Comp Cam from one of my old engines with the lifters on the same lobe, no problems whatsoever.
@@LucoreAuto That would most likely be Bill Hoskinson of Old Man`s Garage.😁
On my 455 rebuild i did the initial fire up on a stand with no tappet covers on and a white stripe on the pushrods. Summit 2802 cam, most lifters would not rotate. Lobe taper found to be ground on BACKWARDS!, 2nd cam, eglin RA4 copy. Most lifters rotating but some not, ones that were rotating were lazy. Taper found to be the right direction ,but only a couple of thou. 3rd try, Bit the bullet and got a local grinder (camtech australia) to do a new grind on the core i had, all lifters now energitically rotating. 2 brand new cams from different sources, junk.
Whoa! That's... absolutely terrible! It's one thing to have a faulty external part, an alternator or a power steering pump, it's a whole other issue when the failure is something from simple bad manufacturing that can result in something like this. We're you able to catch the situation without damaging bearings and "just" do a cam swap?
@@LucoreAuto luckily yes. Shut it down when i could see no pushrod rotation. No harm done. Had heard all the horror stories so was running it on the stand specifically for that reason. On the final cam install I installed just the lifters and wound the engine over on the starter, when they all were spinning i installed a pushrod and rocker, one at a time, and wound the engine between each install to check rotation. Only when all lifters were in and rotating on the starter did i fire the engine. Super tedious but apparently necessary these days, engine been running a while in car just on the outer springs, i think im safe to install the inner springs ,but who knows! Good luck!
Forget the struggle bus my friend... remember that the big man upstairs is on your side! Think, and talk positive and things will turn around for good!
👍👍
Love your videos, keep up the good work sir!
I like the white line idea on the push rods to see if they are spinning that's a good tip. If it can't pass the spin test return it. The push rod should rotate with the plugs out using the starter only and not do any damage to the cam or lifters. Save yourself another trip to the trash can I wish I knew that before I wiped out my Last cam.
I forgot to mention in prior post, even when running a roller cam (hyd or solid) i still use zinc. Lots of metal rubbing in an engine besides the tappets. And mentally it feels good. (Lord knows we enthusiasts need all the positive we can get. Lol)
Most mechanics would never ever admit their mistakes, you however are not most mechanics. As good a mechanic as you are Rich, you are even more principled than most men. I would gladly bring my work to you. So will most of your customers.
Very sad day...bit by the quality bug of a product...good content...thanks.
What do you think about cryro treating the cam and lifters? Anyway, that's why I love this channel so much. It's real! You don't just show the easy ones, you show the hard ones too. Thank you and hope for better luck next time.
A hydraulic roller is looking like a good investment.
Sorry about the Firebird Rich. And Austin thanks for the monologue.
Thanks for sharing.
💯👍👊
I've been pretty lucky with flat tappet cams but I'll never install another one! In 1963 I installed a flat tappet Melling "drag only" cam w/Chevy solid lifters in my daily driver '56 Chevy 283" SBC (highly modified). It made a lot of power and would pulled real hard to 7500 rpm. I drove it to work for 2 years and then replaced it with a complete 365 hp '64 Chevy 327" SBC that I bought at the local Chevy dealer. The rebuilt 283" engine made more power than the new 327" and the cam/lifters in the 283" engine were still in perfect condition. Back then we added a can of STP with every oil change and maybe it helped the cam/lifters survive.
Comp Cams seems to be having major issues with the hardness of their lifters.
Have you seen other builders running into this currently? We know it was an issue during The Plague but had hoped that was over by now
I have seen multiple comp cams lifter failures on brake in this year
There does appear to be an awful lot of camshaft/lifter failure content on RUclips recently. Did they have to go through all this break in at the factory?
I sold a 4 bolt 350 everything brand new and I know the cams and lifters are garbage so I sold it I hear Howard cams are very good
This is exactly why as a customer, I would have told you to do a complete rebuild to start. I have always thought, if there are top end issues, there will be bottom end issues also. Give me 10.5 compression and a roller cam too and wake up that 400!
HOWdy LUCORE, ...
Thanks,
"custom" drinking cup "LIFTER" 😞 ...
COOP
the WiSeNhEiMeR from Richmond, INDIANA
...
After losing 2 solid lifter cams with the correct oils with ZDDP in my 70 Z28 I went with a roller cam/lifters and that was in 2012. Today’s FT steel sucks with hodgepodge hardening process. FWIW your taking your chances with a FT cam in today’s world.😢
Rich and Austin please talk customer into biting the bullet and pay for a roller cam and lifters. Makes life easier and less stress.
we have built several engines this year alone with flat tappet cams and 0 problems and built some last year
Any chance of a ‘79 Pontiac 400 build with ‘67 670 heads on a similar car ? What needs to be added and/or removed regarding fitment on a smog era engine ?
That's what separates you from the shotty places would of done the work half arse & let it slide afterwards. Wow major failures all around. I'm surprised it ran at all. Better hope that the Struggle Bus isn't pulling a trailer.
This was a huge concern I had when I did the break in on my 461 a couple years back. With how prevalent this issue is now, I'd go with a roller cam. Butler has a disclaimer on their website that wasn't there 2 years ago warning of this issue on flat tappet cam shafts.
Ohhh haven't seen that from Butler but it's certainly an issue, and WAY more of an issue during/after the Plague times. We have been lucky over the past few years and only had a few failures on break in but this one... this one is definitely a kick in the pants. But as we say, that's hotrodding!
@@LucoreAuto I'm thinking I got lucky considering the timing. The 400 that was in mine decided it wanted to be an AFM engine right after Memorial day in 2020. I ordered a short block through Len Williams and built up the rest of the engine myself. I started compiling parts over that summer and the cam had a 2019 date on the box. About 6 months after I bought the parts for my build, Pontiac cams were on backorder through Comp. Seems like since they came back, it's been a mixed bag. Hopefully the rebuild goes OK for you.
Leave it to you guys to just randomly have a General Lee chilling out front in the lot. Lol
Oh? That? Lol 😉 We actually just put a video up of that the other day
i bet if you go to johnson hi lyft lifters you wont have that problem....been hearing that from lots of people about the flat tappet stuff
A number of engine builders and machinists have put up videos about how new flat tappet lifters are all junk. 100% of them, even lifters that are “US MADE”.
We and several others had issues with them during The Plague years but haven't heard or seen much since. This is a Comp set, with a Comp cam, and Comp break in oil soooo....
@@LucoreAutoPowell Machine Inc is an engine builder that USED to spend a lot of time fixing the problems with brand new flat tappet cams and lifters (mostly for circle track and dirt cars). Now they just tell everybody to cry once and put a roller cam in it. They have posted about a half dozen videos detailing the problems they’ve uncovered
For the record I’d like to freshen up the 454 in my truck and toss a mild cam in it, but a hyd roller conversion by itself is almost the same money as an LS motor that has a roller cam from the factory
Rich talk to Bob and see if he has had any problems with flat tappet cams from comp cams like the one comment said I've also heard the new lifters are all junk probably Chinese made
I would have never used comp cams lifters. They are junk, that’s why they came out with their dlc flat tappet lifters.
Isky (American made), Johnson, AC Delco which have the hardened foot, or Crower Cam saver are the only ones I would use.
I am very sorry that is happening to you too, you guys are not alone. The same thing just happened to me on a 455 Pontic, lifter failure during break in process. Adding more oil to the cam may help but, is not a solution. By the way your break in process was correct. Flat lifters are not of good quality anymore, even comp brand. Unfortunately it’s time to go roller. Cower has lifters that deliver more oil to the lobes, but I don’t think that is the solution.
It's a dipstick hitting the crank.
Just my thoughts if the cam is bad might as well do the whole engine. Too much stuff floating around in the engine in my opinion. Im not even a fan of just replacing the timing chain set most of the time its just a bandaid because the rest of the engine is as worn out as the timing set
Hard to find good parts these days and trying to make sure they're not Chinese junk. Sorry about your luck. Kentucky fan!
If your open spring pressure is over 300 it will kill the cam... but you may already know that.
You should have the customer converted to hydraulic roller if you don't have to worry about that cam breaking stuff
Roller cams were not original in Pontiac V8 engines. Costly, most true Pontiac owners want original cams.
@@vhp454 well neither is the crappy oil they make these days so it's nice to think smart put a roller cam in it
@@prostreetchickenhawk
The hydraulic lifters need to be checked for crown. At my shop we have been checking them before we install them. We have better lifters lately from echling and melling.
Probably comp cams crap! Install a crower 60919 if you go FT
Are u related to Austin??? Cousins?? Just curious.. love the channel you both are awesome
Darn originality at $400 a pop, install a roller, it's inside....no one will know.
Bet those lifters were not ground with the correct crown 😢
Always sucks when that happens . All you can do is fix it an roll on
Unfortunately "Fix it" is a whole lot of work, and unpaid work at that. But that's reality, roll up your sleeves and get to work!
Yup unfortunately it happens . I had a guy working for me that changed the oil in a charger an needless to say filter came loose locked up the engine . 30. Oil change cost me a 3k motor job . Replaced engine never saw the customer again .
What was the reason for solid lifters??? I can't think of one for a street car!!
This is a hydraulic flat tappet camshaft, certainly not going solid lifters.
If you go with comp cams again that's considered Insanity doing the same thing over and do some research on Howard cams they're made in America supposed to be very good or tell the customer you have to go to a roller cam
This is why at my shop I do not mess with flat tappet cams and lifters.
I kinda hate to say this but ... I won't buy Comp Cams products. I know a guy who made rocker studs for them. Not that he made bad products but that he was cheaper than anyone else and that gives me suspicions that they cut corners. Also, I contacted them about grinding a cam for me one time when I was building a 377 for a dirt track car and they flat out refused and I know they thought I was nuts for the centerline I wanted specifically. Huggins cams in Mississippi did it for me and we kicked ass when that motor was finished. A local guy that builds racing engines was waiting in our pit the first time we ran that motor and wanted to know what the hell we had. I never told him what the cam was but he figured out it was a 377 by the harmonic balancer. Couldn't tell it was a 400 block by the freeze plugs because it was same as a 350 in that block lol. Anyway, he built one and it wouldn't hang with ours. I never have told anyone the cam specs either but I'll say it was all in the centerline. I put a lot of time into that using a computer program called "Desktop Dyno". Long time ago ..
If it's eating the lifters out of it then all that metal has already ran through all the bearings and it's just a matter of time before it develops a rod knock.
Hopefully, it’s an exhaust leak.
Ohhhh wish that were true 😞
The material and nitride of today's flat tapet cams are junk, install a hydraulic roller
The customer is not paying for this rebuild correct?
Fast forward to when you came into the shop to work. Sorry but audio sucked outside. wind big fan and more wind with a distant voice in the middle. Buy you a cheap clip mic that hooks to your shirt collar. Fixed.
I thought the cam angle made the lifters turn. Slightly off 180*.
Why would you spend the time and money to rebuild the engine and use another flat tapper cam you’re not gonna have any better luck this time it’s 2023 just bite the bullet and go roller and don’t look back.
The bearing damage was there before you changed the camshaft.
That engine needed a full rebuild before you gents even started.
comp cams=junk
Certainly not impressed with our situation with THIS one!
@@LucoreAuto u guys need to start contacting other sellers besides jegs.they are the Walmart art of performance products
Next time someone asks you to change a cam tell them no way it's not your fault it China crap
And this is the prime example why is Worth EXPENSIVE but worth it going with a hydraulic roller set up instead of flat tapped 💩…
I’m currently doing a 400 and while is expensive going hydraulic roller set up there’s no breaking in process lol …
Lots of comments saying go roller.
So that means the heads get a complete reworking also!!!!
Roller cam & head rework, set of matching gears for Dist & cam, Pushrods add $2-3K now.
This issue here you had, is the exception to lose a cam like this, not the norm!
I'm a Pro-ponent of the little known Trick of using 1.3:1 special RA's to break in the cam, or swap out the final springs, temporarily using a set that are reduced seat pressure.
For the several hundred miles needed to break in a cam or new engine.
A bit extra work it is significantly less than pulling the engine and redoing it completely again due to ground metal going thru the oiling system!
Here below is a good video on information cam failures reasons, it's all worth the 42 minutes to view"..
I'm definitely changing my mind what I will do now on my new engine rebuild start up.
"Flat Tappet Cam Failures: The Reason Why They Go Bad & The Solution! Part 1"-by Muscle car solutions YT channel.
I might go with the "DLC" lifters..
EDITED:
I have spent hours and hours listening guys highly guard opinions things.
I'm tilting towards a roller for several reasons now.
The FT cam going bad when shouldn't have like the video, plus known issues and a few other components in the entire scenario, I am fairly convinced that a roller will eliminate some issues. Think about it, ALL car MFG are going strictly roller now!
That leave the dwindling crowds we shops and dodders on our own now with NO "big-3 MFG to be part of their influence and support realm movement.
We are now separated as a bunch unto the FT traditions of things.
One point I have now is "IF' I install a FT and like this video, it fails then I will be at least $3K Down again!!!
Plus a rig down months and ALL the hassle rebuilding a "Rebuilt engine.
Install, more part ordering, .
So is this guy here going to try it again???
This I am watching carefully.
To go roller as I sit, "Take the HIT" and redo fresh heads another $350 bucks, not that big of a deal there.
A roller cam can get $450-ish, Lifters maybe $500-ish, pushrods $100 or so.
Yet a few blockMODS like drill tap thrust plate WOW $less than $100 there too.
A new Dist gear, $125-ish.
Add it up, not even $2K.
Now add what this video is going to cost the guy to "rebuild a "rebuilt engine due to FT cam plague that IS a phenomena we cannot ignore or act like its someone else.
This video scenario is now becoming a "too common" event.
Plus add the new DLC lifters that are IMO a "stop gap FIX" for what is again, a FT-plague that is growing and a lot of very sharp guys are chiming in on about things in the last few years..
I can't ignor the stats.
I'm going to pull the inner valve springs on the next go. I put the short block together yesterday. I should have the engine back together tomorrow. I may figure out an engine run stand because I really don't want to pull it out of the car again. 😅
Comp Cams
If you go with comp cams again that's considered Insanity doing the same thing over and do some research on Howard cams they're made in America supposed to be very good or tell the customer you have to go to a roller cam