How often do you get into a situation at the on the river when the correct play is to check fold from out of position due to your opponents’ low bluffing frequency?
Probably a few times a session (4-6 hrs). Problem is half the people at my regular table are capable bluffers… so ya pick your battles… This was great food for thought while facing multiway flops where the middle player calls with position player behind…
I always hate this spot. It pains me to do the right thing. Sometimes I don't out of stubbornness and learn the lesson again. Easy to fold against the nits though.
yep that is the only way to play it. most players will look at the pot though and either jam or bet like the caller did because they are "scared of getting bluffed".... look at the board and how the hand went down... WHAT EXACTLY are you ever getting BLUFFED by here?? Bart broke this down magnificently.
@@Haanski Yes Hero here is not thinking at all,he said ill get bluffed at by draws just because he sees a missed flush draw out there but forgets he has AKdd and a few flush draws actually now make staights,others make pairs that will just check back.Not thinking about what worst hands will call the bet either.Very lazy play really
I think the turn is the real trouble street in this hand. I think once you pick up SDV it can be smart to go into pot control mode. Top pair top kicker isn't usually going to win a huge pot on a dynamic board like this, especially when you block a lot of the draws. For that reason I sometimes like playing nut flush draws, especially AK/AQ a bit passively OOP. When you play them like semibluffs you can end up in a tough spot in a bloated pot when you back into top pair.
I disagree. I think the K is the obvious best hand here vs his Jx capped range and betting turn for value will net the most profit since he's unlikely to fold his Jx. What would be the plan for the river if the diamond hits, seems too face-up to check turn then lead river or check-raise the flush - he's also very likely to check back w/o a flush himself.
I don't think you need to just check the hand down, we can definitely get more value from Jx. I don't think we are getting 3 streets though, especially with the size that the hero chose. I'd probably either go smaller or check the turn, looking to bet thin on most rivers if he checks back.
@@joshuan1991 i agree with you here. I don't hate the idea of checking the turn here OOP.... but I kind of like a smaller bet if we are to bet. And then with the river coming as it is we can check/fold or check/re-eval
I play with a guy so loose that if he flats pre when I raise it might as well be a limp and another guy that is so tight it might as well be a 3 bet lol
This was one of my favorite call ins! Such an amazing example of value owning yourself, with very very few hands that can call a bet for value. Thanks so much!!
I think I like the c/f strategy. So many 2P in his range (which he might not even value bet but would call a bet with). If you jam river you’re turning your hand into a bluff imo.
So villain wakes up with the Holy Grail of sneaky suited connector hands, takes a play out of Negreanu-old-school-small-ball-ism, calls anything just to see a flop, with the intention of hanging on to the bitter end if he flops anything whatsoever. Seems legit :)
Overbetting turn would be torching money so hard imo. You don’t need to charge draws as you have the NFD, and you want all of the marginal holdings to call you. You’re allowing Villian to correctly fold so many hands you are crushing that would easily call a 1/3 pot bet.
I liked this call a lot. Giving up is an underutilized strategy when you're holding a hand that blocks a lot of missed draws. It might seem exploitable by bluffs but that's what happens when you're holding the exact hand that bluffs would be targeting in the spot--sometimes they get through.
Making big folds is a huge part of winning NLHE. Big calls are sexy but the real money is made when you fold hands others will call with when the cards are reversed.
Yes this was one of Bart's greatest calls of all time IMO. A lot to be taken away from this hand... even for someone who has been playing the game for 20 years now, and while this is a concept I feel like I have certainly learned at one point in my poker career... it def was a HUGE benefit for me to watch this video. It really is not too complicated a concept either... but it is one that can easily be overlooked even by players like myself who have been playing for years. Great job Bart!
@@peterdawson3536 Yea i look back at lots of losing sessions and its the calling too much that let me down 90% of the time,even when GTO would call for it,you know they have you beat,even with online play.The public definetly underbluffs
@@Gos1234567 If you play as a professional (play to win money)some of the best sessions I have had were losing sessions where I folded correctly most of the time. I think it's important to not judge how you played based on results either way. We can all run hot or cold even when making the correct decisions.
Caller is not aware or not admitting he bet the river because he didn’t want to check. He wasn’t putting his opponent on a hand he just didn’t know what to do.
Yeah, it's rare that the callers have actually done a hand range analysis based on the action of the entire hand, either by the river or by the time of the phone call.
In theory, we're probably supposed to call down low frequency even blocking diamonds. However, a double flatter is unlikely to be playing balanced ranges and will likely check back all the missed draws that paired up, so we can exploit fold here. Def not folding AK no diamond.
In theory Bart's/your logic makes lots of sense. However, it presumes either that our opponents are playing roughly like we would or that their deviations are highly predictable ways. Sometimes that's true. But as Bart said, we're already "off the rails" with the preflop action! We have to put ourselves in the mindset of someone who would double-flat, and we can make some guesses, but they're fuzzy guesses because of the situation. Would they ever play KQo offsuit or even AKo like this preflop? Hard to say, because they're playing so differently from us AND even from "standard villains." Then the fuzziness compounds on each street. Would they call the flop with something silly like naked QT? Bart explains why they should be playing tightly facing a bet with a 3rd player yet to act, but do they know this? Would they ever call twice and then bet KQ for value? or turn a ten into a bluff? or just bet something like AJ because they don't know what they're supposed to do and checking it down seems weak? None of these is all that likely in isolation, but taken together, they produce quite a bit of uncertainty in hand reading. Even if I could recreate the logic of this video at the table, it would be hard to fold AK getting 3:1 with the fuzziness of the read. Anyway, excellent hand discussion, one of the best RUclips CLP videos I've seen so far.
Very nice hand analysis. This is something I do often, checking when I'm sure I'm ahead most of the time he checks, but behind most of the time he bets. Usually it's exploit based, and I balance checking to an overly aggressive player and calling down light. It's good to remember hand ranges because they can help isolate situations where you have a range advantage overall, but not against his call/bet/raise range.
I watched this video yesterday. I've been playing online for a couple hours and a spot very similar to this just happened to me. So thank you, because your words just flashed into my mind as I was raising, I paused for a second and checked. Then opponent bet and I was like "you have the best hand most of the time, but what can he bet with that you beat? Nothing". So I folded, and the guy showed rivered two pair. So again, thank you, you saved me some bucks
🤔Since he was going to commit his chips in the 1st place, I would have gone all in on the turn and maybe the opponent would have fold.💰 (He had 2 choices on the turn, check fold or go all in.)
Again j,10 of diamonds is an all the way to the river hand. And very playable in co position. If villain is a knowledgeable player he might put hero on an over pair or AK and play it tight with hero doing all the betting. So I agree check fold but I'm not sure I COULD fold with half my stack in the middle against one opponent. And that invested into a 1/3 pot
JTdd, Q9dd, KJ, J8s or K8s (depending how loose villan is. River is a slam dunk fold imo. There are very few bluffs that get to the river, and we don’t even know if he’d pull the trigger on those. Good rule of thumb: how many of his value bets am I beating? If the answer is 0 usually fold unless you have a reason to think villain is over bluffing and you’re getting a good price.
Bart most of the people who call in seriously don’t really understand what your saying. I hear it so much in their voices. I have played many times at the hard rock in cinci it’s a wild game. The 1-3. Which used to be the 1-2 is all over the place as far as what people play and call with there is seriously almost no advanced thinking in the games. Especially the 1-3.. u can pretty much get max value in any hand if the villain has top pair. Or 2 pair they seriously play so bad. But in this call the guy clearly didn’t understand what you were saying about blockers and what the villain could or shouldn’t have or what draws he didn’t have.
J10 K10 are veri likely his hand. Its Very often a hand most players call preflop on good position regardless of the player they are facing or the bet size they face. Most players dont realize that: "when he calls on the flop, he likely have a pair about half the time", they Just think: "oh I have a draw I won already"
If you want to utilize large bets here, you’re better off check raise bombing the K on the turn. If he checks back then evaluate the river but check raising shows more strength than the large bet on turn and puts villain in much tougher shot
I can’t see myself getting into that situation often. It was a stack management problem from beginning to end. 1) The big 6x reraise from the small blind preflop always puts you in a tricky situation on the flop. Don’t do it at low stakes. 2) The flop bet was unnecessarily large. Low limit players fold a lot of flops when they miss, regardless of bet size. No need to go big. 3) The turn bet was where this really went wrong. The opponent has already shown that he is sticky as heck, so once again, it is better to keep the size small and see a river. 4) The river is awful. Check/fold at this pot size, check call if the pot was managed properly and is smaller. A half stack bet into a pot four times the size looks scared as heck. Easy call for the opponent.
I think its correct to check-call on the river, because your opponent only has to be bluffing 25% of the time (as well as possibly value owning himself with KQ) to make it a profitable call. They could easily be putting you on Jx of diamonds and try to get you off it at the end. With such a low SPR on the river, it wouldnt make sense for you to jam into him with a jack trying to get him off a king, but it does make sense for him to try that.
Can't tell you how many times this " unlikely" shit has happened to me. You could a jammed turn and won over a grand...instead you give em pot odds to get there and lose. So ends up being a $1000 loss instead of a $1000 win. Don't get greedy.
What I do not understand is why both humans and online software identify a check here on the turn as a large leak. IMO checking the turn is a good line for many reasons. First villains range has a lot of jacks in it and only has between 1 and 5 outs (AJo has 1 or 2,JTo has 5, JQs non diamond has 3 etc) when you give a free turn card so risk is acceptable!?? Considering the pre flop and flop action there are just not many hands in villains range with 8 outs on the turn. Also on non T,J,Q non diamond rivers (80%+ rivers) a river over bet should get called by most competent players holding a J, due to your turn check. Also it avoids getting shoved on (where you would have to call) when you bet the turn and he has better than one pair. BART or others, please PLEASE give me feedback on exactly why my logic is flawed in these spots. Much appreciated.
I'm not sure I'd come up with that answer in 2 minutes. I'd check. Then think 🤔 if my opponent is capable of bluffing. I think 🤔 I'd call 🤙 most of the time. Folding is for quitters 😆 I'd be hoping he was bluffing with diamonds. I get that there's not to many logical bluffs. I'm not sure I would figure that in the moment.
Think I lost some brain cells watching this doozy. Should have bet smaller on flop and smaller on turn (350 way too big) and hope for check-back river. The bet sizing on the turn made caller pot committed with a half pot size bet left on the river. Don't understand betting 50% of your stack on the river. You would have to call at that point getting like 6 to 1 if villain jammed lmao
I don't see how you "lost" brain cells though... Ever hear of learning from others mistakes? I have heard of a lot more clueless callers than this one btw.
If the caller is pot committed then why not bet the river for value? The point of the video is that the caller ISN'T pot committed with any hand we beat.
This is gotta be the epitome of “fifth street chicken” especially at these stakes. $1-3 players really aren’t bluffing enough on the river in this spot to worry about check folding the best hand. I’m curious whether the villain would have even have value bet his 2-pair if our hero checked the river considering he tank called 1/4 pot bet.
He isn’t jamming J10 of diamonds because he blocks the diamond bluffs. Villain is in the same boat as hero just with a slightly stronger hand. There are too many straights, better 2 pair, and even sets to jam middle 2.
Whats up Crush? I don't know about anyone else but the hardest question that I battle with is, why can't i get myself to get up and a stay offline or off the table, esp when I'm up... and how do i get out of "tunnel gamble-vision" when I have a sizable bankroll on the table or even off the table? esp, how tf do i stop gambling and come to a realization that it's work and not play? I know the answer but why can't i kick it into gear with myself, I know i'm not the only one battling this self-scrutiny
This guy played the hand all wrong - notably the turn & river. It’s fine to bet big pre-flop and flop, but as his hand strengthens he almost downbets? I just don’t understand why you would do that? On the turn he needed to continue to sell the story - and he should have shoved. Villain either folds = he takes it down, great - or villain makes a poor call & luckys the river. The hero let him get there on the river. That was the problem here.
All this analysing lol! End of the day it all comes down to lick the opponent could have pocket 6s. It’s like the saying every hand is a winner and every hand is a loser. I think I’m real play you can read people but online is really impossible to do. Good luck with it anyway! You can work out probability if you have a winning hand or not but it isn’t a guarantee.
As soon as he calls the flop you gotta know he's at least got a J in his hand, and once he calls the turn bet of $350, it may even be KJ, despite all the BS about "blockers" and other nonsense.
I don’t understand how people can play this game. It’s harder than the stock market and has horrible odds. You can’t even break even on average… even talented poker players.
wow, wtf was that tangent about the button's stack size all about? the button dude folded. Clearly the flop bet of $160 didnt affect the CO's decision to call, the villain calls the flop bet, Villain has to have at LEAST AJ, KJ, QJ, JTs, at the very least, imo to call the flop bet. And then using that "blocker" BS...Hero does NOT block KJ hands, there are 2 more kings floating around! It's a 1/3 game and people are sitting down with 400BB's...it's insanity at its finest to be barreling $160 and $350 into the pot in a $1/3 game, but hey party on garth...
The point was that when making the bet, you don't know who is going to call. The button was as likely to call as the cutoff. With one having half the stack size of the other, you need to think about finding a bet size where if either one calls, or if both call, you still have a good line to play.
You can overbet. A different and interesting strategy is to depol 50%. Hero has effectively all the kings on this card as he blocks 1/2 of the floats, and lowstakes players don't construct floating ranges properly. You can bet range on this card, as any reasonable polarized strategy on the flop has plenty of kings, and hero is running out of bluffs. The problem with over betting is stacks are extremely shallow with such a big bet on the flop, 2x all in is the only size that makes sense as an overbet, and hero doesn't have full combos of 88 and maybe no combos of 66.
@@PhilipJReed-db3zc It doesn't matter what his range is, we have effectively all the kings; even if he's floating too wide, he gets demolished on every other turn card.
Excellent lesson Bart. I had to go back and look through my notes and think about this spot for a while, do some Flopzilla work - have yet to plug into the solver. Question about the river check-fold, don't you think some villains would bet/jam QdJd that is worthy of a call? What if the river were a Qc - would the strategy be the same?
No no no no you are reaching here. Well... first of all I don't think Villain is jamming QJdd on this river if checked too... I know that I would think about it in that spot, but I know I would ultimately check... as would over 99% of people IMO. Also you just named ONE combo. Also if the river is a Qc I think that is basically the same thing here, that might actually even be worse of a card for us, or just as bad anyway. I think we are still winning most of the time on that card, but it is still a check/fold.
Either way... it of course HAS to start with a check.... if you want to go down the rabbit hole if your villain bets or if you have history with them.... maybe you want to hero them off, but I wouldn't advise it at all. With AK no diamond, or maybe 1 diamond than you can start working in some calls for sure. I think AKdd though just works too perfect as a check/fold line on this river.
I think the biggest fault by the caller is the flop action, as Bart mentioned, and because the flop does not work well with SB 3! range, leading out into two opponents for a large sizing isn't ideal. Check raising to a 1.2-1.5 SPR and jamming all non-board pairing turns would be a better line that has lower variance (of course we have to have info on opponents that is reliable that they would bet if checked to after flat calling the open and the 3! pre). Next worse was the turn bet because of the odd SPR it sets up on the river. As played, if H just open jams his 1.75 SPR stack from out of position, he's not getting called by worse and all draws are forced to give up their equity (the latter is not a bad result, as it lowers our variance and we make immediate profit). The river, as Bart mentioned, should be a check/fold as played, as a T is one of the worst cards that we can see with our opponent's range.
@@aheroictaxidriver3180 7 outs on the turn is 15% equity. 3 outs is like 6-7%. shoving 1.75x pot to deny 5-15% equity when you are going to get called only by dominating hands (and w ~25% equity) is dumb. please keep doing it.
i disagree with the suggestion of a smaller flop sizing. i understand we gain pot maneuverability but our opponent gains a better price with a wider range. I think a larger sizing better defines both villains range, and we are edging them closer to a commitment decision. I think a larger size encourages folds from no gap suited connectors like 98, 87, 76, 65...potential trouble makers. Larger size also leans us toward winning outright OTF.
This is why this is the best vlog on RUclips for poker education. You have a better than 50% chance of having the best hand, but you should check with plans to fold. I agree, intellectually, but I'm not entirely sure my gut is willing to apply it at the table. I'm marking this one to listen to again in a few weeks.
You can't get attached to what you have,and that beautiful flop draw. My biggest mistake in this same situation. Pre-flop : protecting my hand before the turn. The River hates me. I have lost having the best hand on the turn and end up folding or drowning after the river. Card attachment is dangerous.
Stating the obvious here but these spots with AK or KQ flush draw that bricks usually plays face up when arriving at the end due to removal of bluff combos whether you have value on the board or not, fantastic vid of a common situation, thanks Bart, awesome breakdown
K crushes your 3b range so you should bet small size with a lot of your range, overbet is mainly used in polar spots for getting stacks in by the river, we don’t have an issue getting stacks in with 1/3 and pot ship river
You gotta hate when the 10c comes out on the river, honestly you should know it's gg right there. I feel like this is one where you just HAD to make your flush to win on that board given the stacks
Haven't seen the outcome of the hand yet but against weak low limit players his pf limp call reeks of a small pocket pair set hunting. Bottom set is a definite possibility here.
I can’t see this hand playing out any other way once he calls the pre flop 3 bet, only thing he could’ve done to apply maximum pressure is to overbet jam the turn.
Yeah really like this 1. It's always tough when it bricks out. I was thinking maybe 9/7 of diamonds also, that's not going anywhere on the flop. But then is afraid of mostly AQ or maybe Q9
How often do you get into a situation at the on the river when the correct play is to check fold from out of position due to your opponents’ low bluffing frequency?
How do you build your call/fold frequency? Is it number of missed (likely) draws he could have > number of value hands, therefore call?
Probably a few times a session (4-6 hrs).
Problem is half the people at my regular table are capable bluffers… so ya pick your battles…
This was great food for thought while facing multiway flops where the middle player calls with position player behind…
yes but how often should someone be overbetting the turn to check fold the river?
With top top, too often
I always hate this spot. It pains me to do the right thing. Sometimes I don't out of stubbornness and learn the lesson again. Easy to fold against the nits though.
Bart nailed the check/fold check/win line.
yep that is the only way to play it. most players will look at the pot though and either jam or bet like the caller did because they are "scared of getting bluffed".... look at the board and how the hand went down... WHAT EXACTLY are you ever getting BLUFFED by here??
Bart broke this down magnificently.
and of course what worse hand are you going to get called by for value on this river? This is just not a 3 street hand at all.
@@Haanski the only worse hand I can see calling is exactly KQ. I like a x/f here as well.
@@Haanski Yes Hero here is not thinking at all,he said ill get bluffed at by draws just because he sees a missed flush draw out there but forgets he has AKdd and a few flush draws actually now make staights,others make pairs that will just check back.Not thinking about what worst hands will call the bet either.Very lazy play really
@@modestomouso1234 Why would KQ call the flop? Not even a gutshot.
I think the turn is the real trouble street in this hand. I think once you pick up SDV it can be smart to go into pot control mode. Top pair top kicker isn't usually going to win a huge pot on a dynamic board like this, especially when you block a lot of the draws. For that reason I sometimes like playing nut flush draws, especially AK/AQ a bit passively OOP. When you play them like semibluffs you can end up in a tough spot in a bloated pot when you back into top pair.
Agreed.
I disagree. I think the K is the obvious best hand here vs his Jx capped range and betting turn for value will net the most profit since he's unlikely to fold his Jx. What would be the plan for the river if the diamond hits, seems too face-up to check turn then lead river or check-raise the flush - he's also very likely to check back w/o a flush himself.
I don't think you need to just check the hand down, we can definitely get more value from Jx. I don't think we are getting 3 streets though, especially with the size that the hero chose. I'd probably either go smaller or check the turn, looking to bet thin on most rivers if he checks back.
I love blocking the draws
@@joshuan1991 i agree with you here. I don't hate the idea of checking the turn here OOP.... but I kind of like a smaller bet if we are to bet. And then with the river coming as it is we can check/fold or check/re-eval
I play with a guy so loose that if he flats pre when I raise it might as well be a limp and another guy that is so tight it might as well be a 3 bet lol
This was one of my favorite call ins! Such an amazing example of value owning yourself, with very very few hands that can call a bet for value. Thanks so much!!
I think I like the c/f strategy. So many 2P in his range (which he might not even value bet but would call a bet with). If you jam river you’re turning your hand into a bluff imo.
So villain wakes up with the Holy Grail of sneaky suited connector hands, takes a play out of Negreanu-old-school-small-ball-ism, calls anything just to see a flop, with the intention of hanging on to the bitter end if he flops anything whatsoever.
Seems legit :)
🤣
And somehow, sometimes, it is
"Your opponent would have to understand what you are doing to overbet". So true.
At lower stakes especially, some ppl just aren't sensitive to bet sizing
Overbetting turn would be torching money so hard imo. You don’t need to charge draws as you have the NFD, and you want all of the marginal holdings to call you. You’re allowing Villian to correctly fold so many hands you are crushing that would easily call a 1/3 pot bet.
Ya don't try at lower stakes lol
Not at 1-3
If we overbet turn it would have to be a jam we only have 2x pot also. Bart obv had a brain fart even considering an ob
Oh, I didn't know Tim Pool played poker.
Bart is no milquetoast fence sitter
And if he brings that idiot Ian on the show I'm unsubbing
Sometimes it makes sense to call, raise, and fold. Its complicated.
@@pokermitten9795 Nah that’s Doug Poolk
@@pokermitten9795 nice hand
I liked this call a lot. Giving up is an underutilized strategy when you're holding a hand that blocks a lot of missed draws. It might seem exploitable by bluffs but that's what happens when you're holding the exact hand that bluffs would be targeting in the spot--sometimes they get through.
Yep, and this shows again how hard it can be to play marginal made hands like top top out of position
Making big folds is a huge part of winning NLHE. Big calls are sexy but the real money is made when you fold hands others will call with when the cards are reversed.
Yes this was one of Bart's greatest calls of all time IMO. A lot to be taken away from this hand... even for someone who has been playing the game for 20 years now, and while this is a concept I feel like I have certainly learned at one point in my poker career... it def was a HUGE benefit for me to watch this video.
It really is not too complicated a concept either... but it is one that can easily be overlooked even by players like myself who have been playing for years. Great job Bart!
@@peterdawson3536 Yea i look back at lots of losing sessions and its the calling too much that let me down 90% of the time,even when GTO would call for it,you know they have you beat,even with online play.The public definetly underbluffs
@@Gos1234567 If you play as a professional (play to win money)some of the best sessions I have had were losing sessions where I folded correctly most of the time. I think it's important to not judge how you played based on results either way. We can all run hot or cold even when making the correct decisions.
Caller is not aware or not admitting he bet the river because he didn’t want to check. He wasn’t putting his opponent on a hand he just didn’t know what to do.
Yeah, it's rare that the callers have actually done a hand range analysis based on the action of the entire hand, either by the river or by the time of the phone call.
Hello, I'm calling from my closet, under a blanket and I'm wearing a mask. I'm 1200 effective with villain.
smart money aint taking 400BB's to a 1/3 game...just sayn.
He told you his position, stack size and bet size and you got all three wrong. So my question is. What are you writing down ?
😂
In theory, we're probably supposed to call down low frequency even blocking diamonds. However, a double flatter is unlikely to be playing balanced ranges and will likely check back all the missed draws that paired up, so we can exploit fold here. Def not folding AK no diamond.
valid points here. Yea I think AK no diamond is a check call... with the Diamonds it is a clear check/fold especially at this level as bart explained.
In theory Bart's/your logic makes lots of sense. However, it presumes either that our opponents are playing roughly like we would or that their deviations are highly predictable ways. Sometimes that's true.
But as Bart said, we're already "off the rails" with the preflop action! We have to put ourselves in the mindset of someone who would double-flat, and we can make some guesses, but they're fuzzy guesses because of the situation. Would they ever play KQo offsuit or even AKo like this preflop? Hard to say, because they're playing so differently from us AND even from "standard villains."
Then the fuzziness compounds on each street. Would they call the flop with something silly like naked QT? Bart explains why they should be playing tightly facing a bet with a 3rd player yet to act, but do they know this? Would they ever call twice and then bet KQ for value? or turn a ten into a bluff? or just bet something like AJ because they don't know what they're supposed to do and checking it down seems weak?
None of these is all that likely in isolation, but taken together, they produce quite a bit of uncertainty in hand reading. Even if I could recreate the logic of this video at the table, it would be hard to fold AK getting 3:1 with the fuzziness of the read.
Anyway, excellent hand discussion, one of the best RUclips CLP videos I've seen so far.
J 10 of diamonds?
Very nice hand analysis. This is something I do often, checking when I'm sure I'm ahead most of the time he checks, but behind most of the time he bets. Usually it's exploit based, and I balance checking to an overly aggressive player and calling down light. It's good to remember hand ranges because they can help isolate situations where you have a range advantage overall, but not against his call/bet/raise range.
I watched this video yesterday. I've been playing online for a couple hours and a spot very similar to this just happened to me. So thank you, because your words just flashed into my mind as I was raising, I paused for a second and checked. Then opponent bet and I was like "you have the best hand most of the time, but what can he bet with that you beat? Nothing". So I folded, and the guy showed rivered two pair. So again, thank you, you saved me some bucks
🤔Since he was going to commit his chips in the 1st place, I would have gone all in on the turn and maybe the opponent would have fold.💰 (He had 2 choices on the turn, check fold or go all in.)
Why was nothing mentioned about the villain’s play style or table image? Or did I miss it? That’s key info.
Again j,10 of diamonds is an all the way to the river hand. And very playable in co position. If villain is a knowledgeable player he might put hero on an over pair or AK and play it tight with hero doing all the betting. So I agree check fold but I'm not sure I COULD fold with half my stack in the middle against one opponent. And that invested into a 1/3 pot
JTdd, Q9dd, KJ, J8s or K8s (depending how loose villan is. River is a slam dunk fold imo. There are very few bluffs that get to the river, and we don’t even know if he’d pull the trigger on those. Good rule of thumb: how many of his value bets am I beating? If the answer is 0 usually fold unless you have a reason to think villain is over bluffing and you’re getting a good price.
It's a 1/3 game and people are sitting down with $1200+. There isnt a lot of smart money at these tables.
This hand went off the rails with the 6x 3-bet before the flop. Then the very large c-bet into 2 people out of position. What could go wrong?
Geez, I’ve watched you Bart play live streamed poker for a few years. This clip here truly shows how good you are. 🙌
I’m just shoving the turn here.
Bart most of the people who call in seriously don’t really understand what your saying. I hear it so much in their voices. I have played many times at the hard rock in cinci it’s a wild game. The 1-3. Which used to be the 1-2 is all over the place as far as what people play and call with there is seriously almost no advanced thinking in the games. Especially the 1-3.. u can pretty much get max value in any hand if the villain has top pair. Or 2 pair they seriously play so bad. But in this call the guy clearly didn’t understand what you were saying about blockers and what the villain could or shouldn’t have or what draws he didn’t have.
J10 K10 are veri likely his hand. Its Very often a hand most players call preflop on good position regardless of the player they are facing or the bet size they face. Most players dont realize that: "when he calls on the flop, he likely have a pair about half the time", they Just think: "oh I have a draw I won already"
15 likes, uploaded 12 minutes ago, 15 minutes long...
Playback speed is a great option!
I'm a youtube premium subscriber and never knew you can play back a RUclips video faster. Bart sounds OK at 1.5 speed!
With his flop and turn bets he didn’t leave himself a ton of maneuverability on the river.
Another reason overbetting turn would be bad.
If you want to utilize large bets here, you’re better off check raise bombing the K on the turn. If he checks back then evaluate the river but check raising shows more strength than the large bet on turn and puts villain in much tougher shot
I can’t see myself getting into that situation often. It was a stack management problem from beginning to end.
1) The big 6x reraise from the small blind preflop always puts you in a tricky situation on the flop. Don’t do it at low stakes.
2) The flop bet was unnecessarily large. Low limit players fold a lot of flops when they miss, regardless of bet size. No need to go big.
3) The turn bet was where this really went wrong. The opponent has already shown that he is sticky as heck, so once again, it is better to keep the size small and see a river.
4) The river is awful. Check/fold at this pot size, check call if the pot was managed properly and is smaller. A half stack bet into a pot four times the size looks scared as heck. Easy call for the opponent.
Without listening to the end J10 of diamonds makes a lot of sense
lol yup i was right. 300 bet is so bad. check fold or check call is only play
I think its correct to check-call on the river, because your opponent only has to be bluffing 25% of the time (as well as possibly value owning himself with KQ) to make it a profitable call. They could easily be putting you on Jx of diamonds and try to get you off it at the end. With such a low SPR on the river, it wouldnt make sense for you to jam into him with a jack trying to get him off a king, but it does make sense for him to try that.
Can't tell you how many times this " unlikely" shit has happened to me. You could a jammed turn and won over a grand...instead you give em pot odds to get there and lose. So ends up being a $1000 loss instead of a $1000 win. Don't get greedy.
What I do not understand is why both humans and online software identify a check here on the turn as a large leak. IMO checking the turn is a good line for many reasons. First villains range has a lot of jacks in it and only has between 1 and 5 outs (AJo has 1 or 2,JTo has 5, JQs non diamond has 3 etc) when you give a free turn card so risk is acceptable!?? Considering the pre flop and flop action there are just not many hands in villains range with 8 outs on the turn. Also on non T,J,Q non diamond rivers (80%+ rivers) a river over bet should get called by most competent players holding a J, due to your turn check. Also it avoids getting shoved on (where you would have to call) when you bet the turn and he has better than one pair. BART or others, please PLEASE give me feedback on exactly why my logic is flawed in these spots. Much appreciated.
Hero's river play was also good, IMO. Probably any K or good J will call 300, and if they raise for the last 300, youre never good.
I'm not sure I'd come up with that answer in 2 minutes. I'd check. Then think 🤔 if my opponent is capable of bluffing. I think 🤔 I'd call 🤙 most of the time.
Folding is for quitters 😆
I'd be hoping he was bluffing with diamonds. I get that there's not to many logical bluffs. I'm not sure I would figure that in the moment.
Think I lost some brain cells watching this doozy. Should have bet smaller on flop and smaller on turn (350 way too big) and hope for check-back river. The bet sizing on the turn made caller pot committed with a half pot size bet left on the river. Don't understand betting 50% of your stack on the river. You would have to call at that point getting like 6 to 1 if villain jammed lmao
I don't see how you "lost" brain cells though... Ever hear of learning from others mistakes? I have heard of a lot more clueless callers than this one btw.
If the caller is pot committed then why not bet the river for value? The point of the video is that the caller ISN'T pot committed with any hand we beat.
This is gotta be the epitome of “fifth street chicken” especially at these stakes. $1-3 players really aren’t bluffing enough on the river in this spot to worry about check folding the best hand. I’m curious whether the villain would have even have value bet his 2-pair if our hero checked the river considering he tank called 1/4 pot bet.
Time and time again, when you think you are ahead on flop or RIVER, don't let your opponent see the RIVER, if possible. Make him PAY. Then Prey !
He isn’t jamming J10 of diamonds because he blocks the diamond bluffs. Villain is in the same boat as hero just with a slightly stronger hand. There are too many straights, better 2 pair, and even sets to jam middle 2.
Whats up Crush?
I don't know about anyone else but the hardest question that I battle with is, why can't i get myself to get up and a stay offline or off the table, esp when I'm up...
and how do i get out of "tunnel gamble-vision" when I have a sizable bankroll on the table or even off the table?
esp, how tf do i stop gambling and come to a realization that it's work and not play? I know the answer but why can't i kick it into gear with myself, I know i'm not the only one battling this self-scrutiny
What do you think of blockbetting(20%) river to get a crying call from a J and if he raises we have an easy fold
Sound but have to balance and block bet nutted hands against certain opponents. If u only block in these scenarios u can be exploited by good players
This guy played the hand all wrong - notably the turn & river. It’s fine to bet big pre-flop and flop, but as his hand strengthens he almost downbets? I just don’t understand why you would do that?
On the turn he needed to continue to sell the story - and he should have shoved. Villain either folds = he takes it down, great - or villain makes a poor call & luckys the river.
The hero let him get there on the river. That was the problem here.
All this analysing lol! End of the day it all comes down to lick the opponent could have pocket 6s. It’s like the saying every hand is a winner and every hand is a loser. I think I’m real play you can read people but online is really impossible to do. Good luck with it anyway!
You can work out probability if you have a winning hand or not but it isn’t a guarantee.
That's a tough hand but I am definitely checking the river.
exactly, it sucks but time to go into check and pray they check back mode lol
King- x will call ? K/Q A/K A/Q ; Q/10 maybe ?? Q10diamonds gets dragged in ?
I can't help feeling like I'm hearing this hand at a drive thru speaker.
He could have 7-9 of diamonds drawing to at flush and hit straight that’s what I would be putting villain on that
As soon as he calls the flop you gotta know he's at least got a J in his hand, and once he calls the turn bet of $350, it may even be KJ, despite all the BS about "blockers" and other nonsense.
Omg I finally understand Bart and predicted his suggestion. Andrew Brokos is such a good teacher
Dudes lucky to keep his stack. The turn sizing is just horrible. The river play is even worse.
600-160=440 not 340 lol. This dude is meant to be a poker pro. But is horrible at math.
This guy's bet-sizing's way too big on all streets - either he's playing scared or doesn't understand small sizing.
I don’t understand how people can play this game. It’s harder than the stock market and has horrible odds. You can’t even break even on average… even talented poker players.
so are we betting JJ, KK on the river then? I don't see much of a difference in these hands compared to AK
check raise the flop probly would have end the hand..or check check flop then bet big on turn.
Why no shove on the turn? He had top pair and nut flush draw? Villain is going to showdown with his Jack?
Bart, listening to you bring this kid to school about the hand ranges on the river was like poetry to my ears
Question: instead of betting flop, can we ever go for the check over bet jam here?
Something a little of about this conversation. Just me?
A quick question from a noob here… Are we calling his perspective the hero?
wow, wtf was that tangent about the button's stack size all about? the button dude folded. Clearly the flop bet of $160 didnt affect the CO's decision to call, the villain calls the flop bet, Villain has to have at LEAST AJ, KJ, QJ, JTs, at the very least, imo to call the flop bet. And then using that "blocker" BS...Hero does NOT block KJ hands, there are 2 more kings floating around! It's a 1/3 game and people are sitting down with 400BB's...it's insanity at its finest to be barreling $160 and $350 into the pot in a $1/3 game, but hey party on garth...
The point was that when making the bet, you don't know who is going to call. The button was as likely to call as the cutoff. With one having half the stack size of the other, you need to think about finding a bet size where if either one calls, or if both call, you still have a good line to play.
Bart we need more videos like this were you are giving us like tough love. We need it brother.
Really good advice Bart, like your thinking on this hand alot
You can overbet. A different and interesting strategy is to depol 50%. Hero has effectively all the kings on this card as he blocks 1/2 of the floats, and lowstakes players don't construct floating ranges properly. You can bet range on this card, as any reasonable polarized strategy on the flop has plenty of kings, and hero is running out of bluffs. The problem with over betting is stacks are extremely shallow with such a big bet on the flop, 2x all in is the only size that makes sense as an overbet, and hero doesn't have full combos of 88 and maybe no combos of 66.
Overbetting turn is not the maximum EV play imo. I think something like 1/3 pot makes the most money long term.
@@chuck55545 read the post again. You can, does not mean, you should. I explain why depolarizing is better.
If the opponent is flat calling twice preflop, does that suggest their NLHE skill is such that they're hand reading at this level?
@@PhilipJReed-db3zc It doesn't matter what his range is, we have effectively all the kings; even if he's floating too wide, he gets demolished on every other turn card.
why 70% of the time would he be ahead, but the move would be to check fold????
Sounds like first guy lied 1200 deep n 1/3 hell no
how does those people get to the river with such funny pot to stack ratio?
good hand
Would a 57s bluff on the river?
Excellent lesson Bart. I had to go back and look through my notes and think about this spot for a while, do some Flopzilla work - have yet to plug into the solver. Question about the river check-fold, don't you think some villains would bet/jam QdJd that is worthy of a call? What if the river were a Qc - would the strategy be the same?
No no no no you are reaching here. Well... first of all I don't think Villain is jamming QJdd on this river if checked too... I know that I would think about it in that spot, but I know I would ultimately check... as would over 99% of people IMO. Also you just named ONE combo.
Also if the river is a Qc I think that is basically the same thing here, that might actually even be worse of a card for us, or just as bad anyway. I think we are still winning most of the time on that card, but it is still a check/fold.
Either way... it of course HAS to start with a check.... if you want to go down the rabbit hole if your villain bets or if you have history with them.... maybe you want to hero them off, but I wouldn't advise it at all.
With AK no diamond, or maybe 1 diamond than you can start working in some calls for sure. I think AKdd though just works too perfect as a check/fold line on this river.
I think the biggest fault by the caller is the flop action, as Bart mentioned, and because the flop does not work well with SB 3! range, leading out into two opponents for a large sizing isn't ideal. Check raising to a 1.2-1.5 SPR and jamming all non-board pairing turns would be a better line that has lower variance (of course we have to have info on opponents that is reliable that they would bet if checked to after flat calling the open and the 3! pre). Next worse was the turn bet because of the odd SPR it sets up on the river. As played, if H just open jams his 1.75 SPR stack from out of position, he's not getting called by worse and all draws are forced to give up their equity (the latter is not a bad result, as it lowers our variance and we make immediate profit). The river, as Bart mentioned, should be a check/fold as played, as a T is one of the worst cards that we can see with our opponent's range.
what hand worse than AK calls a turn shove? given that we have the nut flush draw and a blocker to broadway, what draws do we need to deny equity to?
@@jdearles1 I will edit that part of my comment to "not getting called by worse".
@@aheroictaxidriver3180 7 outs on the turn is 15% equity. 3 outs is like 6-7%. shoving 1.75x pot to deny 5-15% equity when you are going to get called only by dominating hands (and w ~25% equity) is dumb. please keep doing it.
@@aheroictaxidriver3180 on a KJ hi board KJ dominates AK
@@aheroictaxidriver3180 Not if our bet size is 1.75x pot.
The main problem is the 10 is not a diamond.
Why don’t we consider the other two kings ?
Terribad sizing on every street
Sherlock Holmes man. I understand why I'm losing I don't have the deduction powers that you're showing and I need to learn. From Vancouver thanks man.
?? Bypass the end problem entirely !! Go all in on the turn !! Have courage !! Trust in the poker gods !!
i disagree with the suggestion of a smaller flop sizing. i understand we gain pot maneuverability but our opponent gains a better price with a wider range. I think a larger sizing better defines both villains range, and we are edging them closer to a commitment decision. I think a larger size encourages folds from no gap suited connectors like 98, 87, 76, 65...potential trouble makers. Larger size also leans us toward winning outright OTF.
Caller didn't leave enough for a decent block bet even.
Great hand to review.
This is why this is the best vlog on RUclips for poker education. You have a better than 50% chance of having the best hand, but you should check with plans to fold. I agree, intellectually, but I'm not entirely sure my gut is willing to apply it at the table. I'm marking this one to listen to again in a few weeks.
J10 was the obvious hand that gets there. I felt he had J10 or maybe Jd9d. J10 has to call your jam. So many hands beat you. Terrible river.
You can't get attached to what you have,and that beautiful flop draw. My biggest mistake in this same situation. Pre-flop : protecting my hand before the turn. The River hates me. I have lost having the best hand on the turn and end up folding or drowning after the river. Card attachment is dangerous.
Stating the obvious here but these spots with AK or KQ flush draw that bricks usually plays face up when arriving at the end due to removal of bluff combos whether you have value on the board or not, fantastic vid of a common situation, thanks Bart, awesome breakdown
i feel like i got worse listening to this.
K crushes your 3b range so you should bet small size with a lot of your range, overbet is mainly used in polar spots for getting stacks in by the river, we don’t have an issue getting stacks in with 1/3 and pot ship river
wow that beanie looks terrible
Why not check raise turn?
Great work Bart! Great video as usual
that was a perfect size flop bet
You gotta hate when the 10c comes out on the river, honestly you should know it's gg right there. I feel like this is one where you just HAD to make your flush to win on that board given the stacks
Worst river play of all time
Haven't seen the outcome of the hand yet but against weak low limit players his pf limp call reeks of a small pocket pair set hunting. Bottom set is a definite possibility here.
I can’t see this hand playing out any other way once he calls the pre flop 3 bet, only thing he could’ve done to apply maximum pressure is to overbet jam the turn.
oh wow, now that you explained it like that, on the river I guessed correctly that the opponent had JT of diamonds.
In 1/3 why not put him on AQo? So call/fold on the river...
I suppose if you overbet the pot on the flop you can jam the turn, saving the tough river decision and forcing your opponent to suck out.
Unlucky river for hero…but that dude wasn’t going to let go of the hand…end of story
Yeah really like this 1. It's always tough when it bricks out. I was thinking maybe 9/7 of diamonds also, that's not going anywhere on the flop. But then is afraid of mostly AQ or maybe Q9
Tim Pool doing the commentary today
Except for the strong opinions based on coherent reasoning
I can see some people jamming the turn as the hero here. Would have been horrible if cards were turned over and the op hits his 10.
How if he have set on the flop
Was thinking JQd