Why Ground Stacked PA Sucks
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- Опубликовано: 3 янв 2025
- The video discusses and demonstrates the advantages of flying PA systems over ground stacking them in concert settings. By having speakers flown overhead, issues like sound blockage and uneven distribution can be avoided, leading to better sound quality and audience comfort. Additionally, the impact of audience heat on concert sound is addressed, with the suggestion that a flown sound system can help bypass heat refraction and deliver sound more effectively to the audience. Outdoor venues present additional challenges due to environmental factors like sun warming the ground, requiring adjustments in speaker angles and the use of multiple delay clusters for optimal coverage.
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Man, every video you make really highlights how really complicated it is to properly set up concert sound systems. 😮
Fun and awesome!
Its why he is one of the best in the Bizz. 🫡
Humbling And honored
You so right, it’s incredible all the science going on every time we play with speakers.
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Dear Dave
It was such a joy to talk to you at w2 of Coachella this past year. I approached you near the main stage before Bjork, and you were so generous with your time and knowledge, telling me all about the new l2 boxes, the last minute rearrangement for the "omg tba" set, etc. You're truly one of the most valuable and generous people in the history of live sound
So cool and thank you and great to meet you
@@DaveRat I have one other coachella memory for you:
In 2009 the "dome stage" was about midpoint between the campground and the main stage, near where the Ferris wheel is now. Pure Filth had a gigantic pile of JBL vertecs stacked on the ground. If I remember correctly, on Thursday night, you had the unfortunate task of sprinting from the main stage to the dome to get them to turn down for Paul McCartney's soundcheck 🤣
I'm not in the live sound business myself, but you always impress me with your no nonsense clear and articulate illustrations. Hugely valuable knowledge to be sure...Been watching your videos for a few years now. Your looking well and glad you continue to do your thing!
So cool and thank you Frank!!
It's not just heat but also humidity! I worked at a venue for 15 years. Concerts, trade events, multiple sports including ice hockey. Spent the first year getting the house system dialed in. Spent the next 14 years learning how the environment altered sound. I ran multiple calibrations over the years and ultimately put correction algorithms into the system for temperature and dewpoint. Before a show, I'd check the temp/dewpoint inside the arena bowl and input it into the system and it would subsequently correct it. It affected both EQ and delay timing.
It's tough to clearly separate the two in real world as heat tends to create humidity.
That said, if you look up the data on measurements of heat and humidity, you will find that heat has a significant impact and humidity is quite surprisingly minimal.
I have done cold humidity testing similar to the test in the video but was unable to create audible demonstrable sound variations.
@@DaveRatagreed - hot air can hold far more water vapor than cool air.
Yeah it's complex. And I've looked into it quite a bit there's some graphs out there showing the impact of humidity on the speed of sound and the effect of heat on the speed of sound. And it's the change in the speed of sound that causes the refraction.
And logically or instinctively it seems humidity would make a big difference.
But the data seems to point in a different direction.
I don't think air can hold enough humidity to cause the drastic differences that can occur from heat.
Do a little looking around at the data and graphs of sound velocity versus humidity and versus temperature.
And I think you'll find that everything seems the point and heat being the majority factor with humidity being a minor factor.
That said it doesn't make too much of a difference as humidity tends to come with heat and humans make both
I love that you back your claims up with demonstrations.
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The manner the flown rig cuts through the challenges, ... is precisely the manner you sir, communicate and elucidate the challenges encountered in performance audio.
Your efforts are so appreciated.
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Thanks Dave. I run sound for gigs up to 1200 people at gigs and festivals and i work by myself so i use mainly point source boxes or small line array. I just bought a pair of 4 meter crank speaker stands and its such a game changer for me having the tops up high. ( i do do sound at venues with pre installed PA's with flown arrays, but 99% of the time i set up systems from scratch gig) I did a gig yesterday with the 4m stands on a 1m stage. The tops were Yamaha DZR12's. The crowd size was 700.
I was going to run 2 DZR10's as delays to cover the rear crowd. My old speaker stands are 2.2meter's tall.
I set up the DZR12's at 5 meters above from the audience floor. The DZR's have a 7degree angle pole hole option so used that. The evenness of the coverage around the hall was good enough that i didn't need to setup the delays.
So for me as a sole operator having the tops up high saves me time, and the crowd get a much better sound. I'll be selling the 2meter stands for sure.
wow actually hearing the reflections in your demonstration is awesome, thanks dave
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This is an excellent video Dave. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with us all!
Thank you so much and so appreciated!
As a microbusiness owner in a small town, the best my budget would allow for is tall stands & tilting my point source boxes down. Certainly helps alot though
Yes and that's a good solution
Another informative vid as always. You're such a gift to those of us who actually care about this stuff. Thank you from Canada for making our jam space sound immaculate by way of your knowledge and content.
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Great video, informative as always. I realise this is a demonstration of an effect made using what’s at hand and I’m picking that the heat given off by the candles would give a result at the extreme end but you’ve proven this doubter wrong. I’ve always been sceptical of how much difference temperature would make. Always happy to be wrong and to learn from that. Thanks dude.
Super cool and "aha!" moments are the best!
super interesting! thanks for sharing
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Really it's the demonstrations that make your content so great to watch.
We could talk about this phenomenon in a classroom and understand the concept--but to get it to really stick we need to see it actually happening.
Keep it up Dave.
Thank you and you grasp what I really go for in the videos. Bypass all the crap and complexity and focus on simple real world demos
this is the audio version of the optical issue of light coming into materials with different density. You will have a mix of diffraction and reflection where the density changes. A temperature shift in a gas also produces a density shift and so you see reflection on the far end of the asphalt road in hot days and you get a change in the frequency response when the air above the audience get hotter and less dense.
You are like a mad scientist with all your testing equipment, thanks for the crystal clear demo!!!
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Excellent lesson on Sound travel. The temperature effect is super clear with your display to demonstrate that problem. All sounded great in Sound Check but things start to happen 20 minutes into show. The body heat effect. Flown no problem or should I say much less. Dave great tip as always.
Cheers from Nova Scotia
Awesome had super cool. And speaking of cool Nova Scotia is should be chilling down about now. Thank you
what a great video and cool experiment for demonstration… very nicely done!
Awesome and thank you!
Great timing, I was just discussing this with some coworkers about an event next week. Thanks for the insight!
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Some time ago , when I was working, I had a multi cam video game show with audience. Now the producers jump through many hoops to make an audience happen ( react / laugh) and , well they want to hear those reactions.
Well my audience mic’s we’re getting hit by the massive AC air flow.
Couldn’t figure it out.
Then it was so simple, came in a couple of hours early, fired up the AC and the PA, got a cherry picker, a couple of incense sticks, went along all the overhead mics, and there it was, by putting the incense right next to the mic it was clear, just focused the air a few degrees to one side . Done.
Great minds think alike
Love your work
☮️from sunny Thailand.
Love that and very cool! And also love Thailand!
Always amazing explanations/presentations, you are the man Dave !
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Im glad you re uploaded this. It's a great demonstration!
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Amazing you can even hear this over RUclips. I imagine it's even worse in real world setups when your actually there. Great demo, Dave, ty as always!
The issue can be significant
Great video and demonstration.
I’d just add some terminology to the conversation. Sound (and light) refracts into the denser layer of the medium through which it propagates. The cooler the layer of atmosphere, the denser it is. Sound does not propagate as well near ground level when the air is warmer near the surface than higher in elevation. This condition is also referred to as an unstable atmosphere. A stable atmosphere would be the opposite of that, with cooler air near the surface and increasing temperatures with higher elevation. This stable condition can also be referred to as a temperature inversion and during this condition distant sound sources will sound closer/louder as a result of the better condition for sound propagation.
Awesome thank you
This is great stuff Dave. Doing DJ playback systems I always knew flown is best, simply from the absorption of the bodies - had no idea of the effect of body heat on the HF. Wow! My mobile DJ setups are truss hangs at the edge of the dance floor which works dandy.
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haha the subwoofer test in the outro is banging
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this one helped me alot the first time it got uploaded. I always tell them tonrefer to this video.
many thanks for sharing your great knwledge!!
Super cool. And yeah I'm spending some time cleaning up old videos now that the video software makes it easy to fix things
Love these videos! Great practical demonstrations! 👏
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nice , each of your video are so nice and so helpful to understand many kind of sound issue. thanx for that your are awesome
glenn flicker needs to see this video. this was an amazing demonstration. 🍻
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Awesome experiment. Thanks for this.
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What a great video explaining the effects of people on a PA system.
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You just wanted to blow some candles Dave! 🎉 🎂 Happy Birthday 3:42
Yeah I left that part in just for fun!
I just did a small/ medium wedding venue with a bluegrass band. They had their system on one side of the room and the venue offered us to tie into their system that was mounted on the ceiling of the opposite side. I measured I think 35 feet from speaker to wall. But when I measured with a laser measure from speaker to speaker I got 25 feet. It was enough of a difference to shave off a few milliseconds from my delay calculations. I probably could've turned the house speakers off but I was also going for a little bit of reinforcement so I could turn our system down and not blast the guests as much. Plus they also had an amazing system that would pipe this throughout their venue and throughout the basement and in a whole other section it was amazing!
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thank you so much for the clear demo
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Amazing video Dave, thank you for demonstrating this.
As a tech and PA rental person who is always solo, there aren't a lot of options for me to quickly deploy a raised PA in the environments I work in. I'm too small to invest in lifts, but this year I've started investing in Meyer Sound boxes. Getting my X40s horizontal with a pole mounted MUB has been the best I can do, and it's worked out pretty well for full room coverage. I can barely lift my UPQs onto my double 900s.
Because of this I'm now considering getting 2 Lina or Leopard per side to mount to a truss or something. Get them up without breaking my back.
Very cool yes elevating is good. And we got to do the best we can with the tools we have on hand or able to get
Brilliantly demonstrated, thats a win! 😊
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Great visual explanation along with the difference in sound quality!
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great video as always !
Thanks Dave!
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Brilliant demonstration (as ever). Thank you Dave!
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Fantastic explanation Dave!
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Thank you, Dave. Your videos are always informative.
Awesome and thank you!!
LOL that sub sweep at the end got me!
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Thank you Dave, great as usual!
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Interesting and educational as always
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Excellent clip Dave..
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Thanks Dave.
Awesome thank you!
Excellent demonstration - thanks for sharing your knowledge!
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Thank you for this sir
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Thanks for the great vid. What I find interesting and worrisome is how people running small sound businesses (mobile DJ, wedding sound, small venue reinforcement, usually with just two tops) are using videos like this as justification to get extra-tall tripods and raising speakers to 10+ feet. You shouldn’t have to give the disclaimer here, but people need to realize that 1) these concepts don’t always apply in the same way to smaller rigs and 2) if they can’t keep a deployment *safe*, then the gains in coverage, response, etc. are never worth it. 😟
We must all do our part to stop the pandemic of falling dj speakers sweeping the nation
Jokes aside, the tripods have weight and height ratings and what looks safe and what is rated safe design wise are quite interesting.
I have and have setup and seen tripod setups that look quite precarious but are well within safety specs. Also seen the opposite.
Tripods are rated on weight capacity with a max height limit. But there are small but really heavy speakers that look safe that can exceed the weight limit and there are big light weight speakers that are well below the weight limit but look really unsafe.
All that said, this video only mentions flying pa systems, I will leave the nuances of speakers on a stick adventures to someone else that wishes to embrace that adventure
your demonstrations are fantastic so much better than talking a lot of theory is the critical angle 22° it is with the stone skipping on water
Awesome and thank you
Amazing demo - thanks!
Many times when i have been woorking festivals i experienced thst the PA seems to sounds "nicer" when the sun has gone down and the temperature drops. Thou i have never measured it the humudity probably goes up as well causing i shift in the mid/high end frequency off the system. But could there be a factor (not measurable with analysers) that could acount for this phenomena - if it exists?
Humidity surprisingly has very little effect and heat is the predominant factor.
The impact of heat is multifaceted.
It can cause refraction as I show in the video bending sound away from places and towards others.
But also the frequency response losses vary considerably what temperature is well.
Higher temperatures will make things dull and lower temperatures will make things brighter but it's not linear and really high temperatures get a little brighter again.
A Google search of frequency response versus temperature you should bring up some interesting graphs as well as searching for humidity versus frequency response
Thanks for the comments. I will dig in to it🙏
Awesome and let me know what ya find and if you find anything showing humidity is more than a minor factor
Good demonstration and very valid points, but coming from the world of diy sound systems I have a soft spot for ground stack and prefer it a bit. Feels a little more engaging to me if you will.
Yeah, being able to stand near speakers is exciting. I can also say that once you get into huge powerful sound systems, stacking is a annoying and the true glory comes from many thousand pounds in the air.
Yesss Dave, your demo talks by itself, and i don't say it is false, but i like the pressure and the impact of big ground stacked sound systems can provide.
I'm into reggae and dub music, and i can tell you that, listen to this music, on clusted L Acoustics ie, don't make the same thing on the audience, even if the sound is not "perfect" or "well processed"...
What do you think ?
I think that the smaller scale stuff it's easy to stack a bunch of speakers. And when you get into really actual big systems that are hundreds or million watt size, ground stacking is a little toy version of what can be done with flown.
That's it the proper tool for the job is always wise. And having a bunch of speakers close to a bunch of people that want to be near a bunch of speakers makes ground stacking a desirable choice for those applications
@DaveRat One more time you're right, it's not comparable to superstars big events, and the challenge is totally different.
However scoop bass and sound system stack is each time a surprising experience !
I like being close to big powerful subwoofers as well
Excellent demo!
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This is insane I love it. Reminds me of watching Ben Burt coming up with the laser sound for Eve in Wall-E. Science and art is a good marriage, and kudos to ones who understand it.
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I have been suspecting that the change over to LED lights changed the sound of PA stacks, ands now you just showed me how much temperature does.
Yeah thermal and environmental factors are definitely significant aspects that impact sound reinforcement
As with most things audio "it depends". Yes if the goal is even homogeneous coverage, and time and budget are no concern then flown boxes is superior.
Sometimes I actually want a "hot spot" on the dancefloor, or budget only allows for groundstacking.
Proper tool for the job is always wise. But one could argue that having a sound system deployed such that that the listener in the front row does not block the sound from the listeners behind them is almost always the right tool for the job.
So whether it's ground stacked or flown having an adequate elevation such that the audience can be covered without blocking sound or causing sonic issues for the rest of the audience is probably how this video should be interpreted
@DaveRat I can agree with that. I think my point was ground stacked doesn't always suck. It really depends what you're trying to accomplish.
I agree That's just too many words to put in the title of the video or in the thumbnail!
And I don't like generalizing but kind of have to put the video thumbnail
This excellent Dave
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WOW! The difference is INSANE!
Agreed, this is all part of me trying to figure out why the sound changes when people come in and why the same room sounds different one day to the next
@DaveRat Yea it's a very interesting topic. Never have i thought temperature to be as much of a factor. I'm building speakers since like 10years and i'm still surprised how much there's still to learn. From special coil winding like Purifi dies to thermal dynamics of the venue. Now i gotta find a fly to get my tops higher up that isn't flying as it's very hard from a legal standpoint to be able to fly DIY speakers.
I have designed flying systems. It's not too bad here in the US. There are things you can do like using rated hardware mounted in rated methods to the enclosure and not use the enclosure for any structural strength related aspects.
There are also companies like ATM that sell hardware they can be bolted onto boxes.
And once the stuff is all built at some point we got our certified by bringing it to a lab and getting it pulled apart and rated.
@@DaveRat Oh i didn't know that. I have to look into that. Thanks a lot!
Cool cool and keep me updated on how it goes
Amazinggg demo
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That was SICK! made my mine, Flown all stacks if ii ever do.
Super cool
Wow I just found myself mixing on a flown PA yesterday night in Berlin just when you released this video haha what a coincidence! While I was confused (in a good way) how even sound was across the audience I did miss that direct sound in front of the stage as everything sounded far away everywhere - could that be filled with nearfills? Thanks and all the best, Tobi
Yes using near fills is common and useful.
I guess that it depend on the frequency too, because often bass speaker are on the ground. And also, from your experiment, the heat, or just having the speaker on the ground acted as a low pass filter, so i would assume that this is true on high frequency
He tends to impact high frequencies more than low frequencies.
Wavelength is definitely a factor. For low frequencies with wavelengths of 10 20 and 30 ft or more, a 6 ft thermal gradient above people's heads is relatively small but for high frequencies with wavelengths of a foot or less a 6 ft thermal gradient is quite large
Incredible demo. Do you think if one were to crank the heat up for empty room soundcheck we’d get a closer representation of the hf response we’ll get when audience arrives?
Yes I do that or used to in a mixed. Run the rooms hot turn off the AC a half hour before Showtime or turn off the heaters.
Do everything I could to create a consistent thermal environment especially for when the show starts
Wondeful video as always!
I'm wondering though if the refraction due to heat affects subs less? I assume the "floor shaking effect" of grounded subs would somewhat help with the reduction of the effect?
Thanks for the super genius knowledge!
The heat and thermal issues are frequency dependent. Low freqs are impacted less.
Or more specifically, I believe but I don't have tech proof, that a freq with a 10 foot wavelength would be impacted by 1000 feet of heat, similarly to a freq with a 1 foot wavelength would be impacted by 100 feet of heat.
Mr.Rat…. Thanks 🙏
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Wind direction refraction will be larger for the ground stack as well.
It can be, but also it can also be more wind up high. I have not tested that and don't have definitive data to know whether or not flown or stacked is more wind tolerant.
Though wind does help reduce the thermal layer above the crowd but a light wind can disrupt the thermal layer and make the thermal issues more unstable
That I have experienced whin still air turns to light wind.
*Very well done im a mobile Dj and do smaller events and always felt that using my 2 way tops higher then the audience heads is far superior then ground stacking them but now i want to ask is the same applied to Sub bass? Reason is i have seen JBL VTX systems deployed on their sides letting the second driver always seemingly play into the crowds chest or neck area and id assume this is to do a similar yet different thing by giving that chest thump feel.*
Since the lows are and subs are affected less by heat it doesn't matter as much as it does for the higher frequencies.
Flying subs can be advantageous but it's not as clear-cut
@DaveRat thank you for your reply i appreciate the info etc.
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Great video Dave, Could you try that with a point source? I’m curious if this mitigates it more.s
That was with a point source.
Interesting. I've definitely experienced temp/humidity differences affecting a PA throughout the day before. Would you say this affect that you demonstrated more most noticeable at large outdoor venues vs small indoor venues or is it more or less unaffected by the venue type and size?
Heat can ruin any gig. Hot sweaty clubs get dull and muddy sounding, theaters can lose all the highs on the floor, hot crowds and AC from above can ruin arena sound and the sun beating down or active crowd can really screw up festival sound.
@@DaveRat I used to mix in a London West End theatre (for a church). We had 4 services through the day each week. There was a clear difference in sound as the day went on. The morning would be cool and sound fairly neutral, but as it got to evening (the busiest service), the room would get hotter, and everything would sound much drier and punchier. And yes, perhaps a bit dull in the highs. The PA was wall mounted V-DOSC in arrays of 5 cabinets each side, for the ground floor, and 5 per side flown for the balcony. So it was kinda in-between ground stacked and flown. I was also mixing under the balcony, which also played into things.
Very cool. And yes I have spent much time and thought and effort into trying to sort through what exactly causes the changes and how to deal with them.
Hey carried a thermometer with a laser that I would measure room tent around the venue in arenas. And work with the venue to stabilize the thermal gradients shut off air handlers prior to the set starting. I was actually able to really achieve some quality results by striving for consistent venue temperatures while I toured around the world
My only gripe with flown rigs (as a punter) IS the fact that you can't get within 5ft of them :P.
Really cool demo though, and it really helps quantify the benafits of flown that you are talking about! From now on, when I see a room filling up with people, I'm gonna visualise them all as tiny little low pass filters reflecting all the high freq. nrg, all piling into the room and adding up haha! xD
Very cool and a well deployed flow system will often have local put fills and subs covering the up close to stage people. And use the flown to cover the longer distances
@DaveRat Yeah that's very true actually!
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Is it a possibility that the heat waves and and the sound waves are causing some kind of phase issues?
It's pretty well documented that increases in heat increase the velocity of sound waves.
Because of this sound refracts away from heat.
He can look up the speed of sound at various temperatures and see how fast sound travels at low temperatures versus high temperatures.
Because the speed of sound changes with increased temperature there could be some phasing issues if part of the sound is traveling a little faster than other parts of the sound and they recombine
But over this short of a distance most likely what you're hearing is less and more high frequencies as the higher frequencies are refracting away from the heat source
Hearing the sound demonstrably change just from candle heat being in the way - despite RUclips compression - is pretty mind-blowing. If you'd asked my ignorant ass if that was going to happen I would have said what? No. Don't be silly.
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Wow! I’ve always heard a difference between soundcheck and when the room is packed with bodies that absorb highs especially but never attributed heat to be a factor 🤯
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Remember that humans are mostly water. That will also be part of the equasion
Singer: everyone put your lighters in the air
Dave: arghhhh!!!
Noooo! Although people would probably need road flares instead of lighters to make a sonic difference
Fantastic
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Hey Dave! I am an aspiring audio engineer for small bands and local shows. I am currently in my first semester of college majoring in something unrelated to putting on shows, but I am wondering if you have any advice as to where to start. My father is a DJ and has a fairly small setup with 4x JBL SR4719a subs and 4x JBL SR4733a mids that we use for almost every event. We use the DBX Driverack PA2 and sum cheap amplifiers to run them in parallel. Anyway, what can I do to learn the ways of optimizing sound for this system or should we invest in modern speakers? Any other advice for getting into the sound industry as an 18 year old?
Thanks Dave!
Very cool, well there is a lot of info here on my channel. Also check out Kyle's channel, Audio University. I tend to cover the stuff that is rarely covered and he does a great job of covering the fundamentals and is quite thorough.
Greatness
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what do you think of grounding boxes not really a floating ground as such. a couple of steel plates and some mega ohm resistors and a capacitor. got an opinion?
Hmmm, sounds fishy and based on mystical rather than factual ideas
You keep using that word, grounding. I don't it means what you think it means.
Grounding means many things. There is stacking PA on the ground and then there's electrical ground's and then things like spiritual grounding and intellectually grounded factual information.
But as far as mega ohm resistors are concerned that infers electrical grounding and if we're looking at the acoustic output of a loudspeaker, then there's some sort of weird cross reference happening there that makes things sound fishy.
Kind of like a psychiatrist pulling out a piece of copper wire and telling someone it will help with their spiritual instabilities.
Your statement about steel bars and capacitors and resistors is intermixing electrical grounding with mechanical grounding.
While this may sound interesting it's a red flag for being a high probability of a voodoo based concept praying upon those with limited understanding of one or more of the aspects involved
@@andyevans2336 well I should have we used the word earthing! in a circuit board it's called grounding so that's why I use the term. I wasn't referring to what he was talking about it just made me think when he mentioned it.
@@DaveRat I should have meant earthing instead of grounding it to the mains, its earth it to plates instead.
No fning way, That's just wild.
I concider myself to be pretty deep in the stuff, I even made a decorrelation filter for a dsp speaker I designed.
Yet everytime you put something out I feel like such a noob😂
Fun adventures!
I get mine up about 14 feet with my current stands. Really don't have the space or time to fly them.
Doesn't really matter if it hangs in the ceiling or it's on a stick as long as you get it up high enough to improve coverage and reduce heat refraction You're all good
How do you compensate for rain?
Rain itself doesn't mess with things too much but the wind that tends to come with it can be an issue.
It's all about optimizing everything within your control.
We have the ability to fly the PA and we have the ability to work with venues on room temperature and when the air conditioner or heater is turned on and off and the ability to use delay clusters and minimize long distance sound propagation to help reduce the impact of environmental issues.
And when it rains I make sure to have my mud boots and there's no leaks over the mixing console and gear and most of the quality speaker systems are not damaged by rain
I'm hearing the flown PA sound more "comb-y" than the ground PA from the heat diffraction, whereas the ground stack PA seems to get a more "blanket" attenuation of frequencies.
I think that's probably because the ground stack is already too comb-y and blurred due to the ground reflection versus the direct signal causing an issue which happens at gigs as well.
The ground reflection from the flown system bounces upwards much more quickly and the ground stack you get more interference
boss what percentage of festivals are stereo stage ??? woke up to aks u
I've never been to a festival or mixed on a festival in the 30 + years that I was touring where the festival was anything besides stereo
This is crazy 😮😮😮😮😮😮 I diint know that
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audiophiles will start repositioning their hot coffee cup, mark my words :):)
wishing you all the best mr Dave
And the shoulb buy thermally stabilized non-disruptive heat shielded ambient temperature locked coffee mugs with little crystals on them for tens of thousands of dollars to fix this issue
@@DaveRat 🤣🤣
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Ur explanation is so genius it's said simple and made me turn on so many light bulbs on💡 ✨️ cheers 🍻 👏
Awesome
Hi Dave, topic adjacent question. What are the pros and cons of flown central sub stacks like at the Resorts World Theater (two center-flown arrays of eight KS28 subs each in addition to twenty-four KS21 subs located under the stage). I know that is a L-ISA installation, is that the reason for them installed in that fashion? If a live show/festival stage physically allows it, would additional flown central subs be an option or would they be limiting in another way (output, coverage, etc)?
The L-Isa has an interesting challenge with timing and subs. To really get the horizontal localization to work, they need the center subs so the sound radiates outwards.
Then the L-Isa arrays can time align to the subs. With other sub positions, there is no way to get the timing correct.
Wow temperature difference, awesome demonstration of with and without mobile sound baffles.
I wish I could afford to buy more products, or even afford enough to subscribe as a member.
In the meantime I just have to settle with advertising sound tools on every comment that justifies it.
Awesome and thank you
My question is why do my subwoofers sound so different early show vs late and mid show
They should not but if driven hard they voice coils do get hot and hot voice coils have increased resistance and less damping. So they can sound soft and lose punch. Also, lots of people in the way of the subs can act as a low pass and make the subs less defined and muddy sounding. Also, ac wires can get hot and voltage drops can occur causing the amps to have reduce power output.
Those are a few possible factors
ACDC about 15 years ago used a floor stacked x array system in an arena in Melbourne. Toughest, smoothest sound I've ever heard. I was an excessive amount of PA to be fair though. No low-mid punch loss at that show!
Interesting and I'll have nightmares about a ground stacked arena system now
You blew my ming once again!
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Audio science in masses!
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insane. this should be a lab at audio schools!
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How many watts per sq ft is good
I remember those day of watts per sq foot or watts per person. Now we just do predictions that show the SPL and freq response of the coverage area
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My god, Dave! You must've read my mind haha
The #1 reason stacking sucks - STACKING! 😂
I do corporate stuff now but in the 90's a stacked PA for almost every show I did. 8 over 4 KF850s/side usually. Theses young guys with their digital boards, snakes and Stageline stages don't know how good they've got it.
Oh yes I did lots of 850s. And lots of stacking. These modern boxes are like little toys compared to the stuff we used to have to lift
Gave a like to the video before even watching it, would've gave a thousand if I could
You are awesome and thank you!