As a studio engineer, live has always astounded me. The entire experience is on the line and they get blamed for every little thing no matter how it occurs. And you don’t praise them when nothing bad happens because you don’t think about it til there’s a problem. I love these people. It’s a whole different world with so much at stake and they have all my respect. I haven’t wanted to try it even a bit after the gigs I was made to do in school lol. And this man in particular is such a legend. I love hearing his passion and knowledge on the subject.
I do live sound for a few venues in South Texas. You’d be surprised how often people do thank you for the sound. Especially if you know what you’re doing, it shows. Also, any artists seeing this.. please stop cupping your mic it heightens your chance of feedback in your monitor and it sounds terrible!!
@@murberec42 That’s good to hear. I’m sure there are places and demographics that are better than others in the gratitude department, too. And I love how universal audio pet peeves are lmao. It needs a top ten video or two.
I don't want the sound systems to be invisible. I love the look when you walk in a festival ground and see all those mighty line arrays 😍 gives me goosebumps every time
Speaker cabinets protected by metal meshes only also looks better than those with a delicate sponge layer making the speaker cones invisible. Visible vibration of speaker cones are one of the symbols of live music!
I love being educated by people that not only know their field, but their passion for it ignites my interest in such a way that I end up watching the whole video - sometimes more than once. This guy is one of those people! :)
Coachella sounded amazing basically anywhere I went on the festival grounds. I was amazed at how deep and otherworldy the bass could sound, it was honestly better than any headphones i've ever worn in my life
@@MVS0N_there's only a few cons to speakers like they cost a lot more than headphones you have to worry about everybody else hearing your music and taking up space but yes speakers are better at pretty much everything
Coachella 2023 was the first live music/concert I've seen in a while since the tribute to Chester with Linkin Park, and I was so surprised how good everything and everyone sounded.
1:19 I want to thank you for the seemingly small point you made about going 'if you were moving up and down you would hear the problems' that really cleared things up for me. Sometimes it the little things that make a big difference. This was an interesting video.
@shockedbywater @barcodenosebleed The part that they skim over is that it IS a problem currently. Because festivals happen on slopes and theaters/venues have sloped seating, people still fall in those overlaps. For this and other reasons, line arrays aren't a perfect solution, just a great one for big festivals. One of the big advantages that they don't mention here is that with the granular adjustment of line arrays, the speakers at the top of the array pointed at the back can be CRANKED to get a good sound level at the back without blowing out the front row's ears, which is great for concerts. That's half of what Dave talks about with it "sounding like you're closer to the stage than you are." This is the never-ending audio dilemma that keeps folks like Dave and I employed: one speaker isn't loud enough, and two speakers combing sound worse than one!
@@kylanbowden6125 Modern PAs are really fascinating. I never did live sound, but I did audio production for about a decade in radio (and recorded some local bands) back in the early 00s before switching to computer programming about 13 years ago; it's mind-boggling what's possible now. I caught another video yesterday with Chris Hoff w/ Styx talking a bit about the PA engineering side of things and similar challenges like you mentioned, a LA really close to the ground in a partially closed pavilion and the ability to tune each box and the software capabilities these systems now have embedded to solve problems/model spaces, geometry, crossover, etc. Would absolutely love to get a job at one of these or related companies doing audio-adjacent software development for something like that or FOH/console something or other apps. Going to have to poke around on some of the job boards for these companies.
@@acey6894 Absolutely! It's just one of those situations where nothing comes for free, and the benefits of using a line array in that scenario -- loudness, granularity, etc. -- outweigh the disadvantages. Keep in mind that speaker technology in general is so good today that the "issues" talked about with line arrays or point sources are minuscule compared to even 20-30 years ago. Arrays have been specifically designed to make the "bad" spots (where you're right between two boxes' coverage) sound as good as possible. Most modern array software, you go in and tell it what angle you've physically set between each box, and it does the math to help control some of the interaction between boxes. My original comment was mostly just frustration that the video tries to create a narrative where line arrays are the perfect replacement for point source boxes, which simply isn't true! Just two different tools.
There are so many sound engineers on youtube that try to explain line array and the effect that comes with it. But Dave Rat is just a true hero. The way he explains it, even a 5 y/o could understand it. And even me, 32 years old, who experiences quite a lot of PA-setups as a mobile sound engineer, i'm always amazed on his profession and lessons. I also love his videos that he does in his workshop / garage. He goes deep into a topic, and it just never gets boring
You should definitely take note, those are Million Dollar+ Stereos, basically. For a sound nerd like me it's part of the draw to hear a system of that magnitude in person!
@@djjazzyjeff1232 im more interested in the guys contrlolling and programming the pyro and intelligent lighting. take yourt snobby sound crap ans shove it up your az
System design is one of those fields that you don't even realise is a thing until you pull back the curtain and realise the insane amount of physics and math it takes for something you stand and watch a show and take for granted
Look up the 'Grateful Dead Wall of Sound' they were the true pioneers of live festival sound engineering and went to some insane lengths to get good audio. I think I remember they got to a point where every string on Jerry Garcia's guitar had its own amp and speaker setup.
Remember, if you go to a gig and you like what you hear, you can always give the PA guy a compliment! I still remember Portishead at Lowlands. That was the clearest sounding, most perfectly adjusted PA i've heard in my entire life.
Another interesting property of the line array that's relevant to festivals is that because the wavefronts spread roughly cylindrically rather than spherically the sound intensity drops by only 3dB for each doubling of distance rather than 6dB for a point source. Which explains why they can sound so much louder far away. Traffic on a busy road also has this property which is why it's so fricking annoying for local residents.
Modern speakers also handle way more power and have a higher sensitivity rating. In the early 2000’s and normal point shoot box ran at 600wrms and was about 97db. Modern stuff runs at say 2000wrms and is at least 100db. That’s a huge difference.
This is indeed a very big advantage. However, a road consists of uncorrelated sources instead of correlated as in a line array. So the radiation pattern of a road is indeed -3dB per distance doubling, but also only 3dB sound pressure doubling if the traffic intensity doubles (compared to 6dB in a line array when doubling the speakers)
Dave living the dream! Imagine being able to be mentored by him. Bet you he's got some great stories, and equally great insights about sound design. Keep doing your thing Dave!
You can already be mentored by him indirectly! He has HOURS of content and 90% of the time he will give you an answer and advice if you ask ruclips.net/user/daverat
Wel are all getting mentored by him. He is like a line array personified, very accessible with a lot of coverage throughout. Even I can understand the topics he touches lol.
A bit nerdy but one thing that wasn't mentioned is that a point source has a 6dB drop of volume per doubling of the distance (inverse square law) whereas a line source (aka line-array) has a 3dB drop per doubling of the distance. A point source spreads its energy in a spherical manner, and a line source in a cylindrical manner, meaning less loss of energy over distance. This is what Dave referred to when he felt the speakers where so close yet so far away. Now, this is theoretical and no line-array achieves this to 100%. It's also dependent on wavelengths vs the length of the line-array - the lower frequencies acts more like a point source in comparison to the higher.
@@oblitafier In the first part of the video that's what he demonstrates, yes. I'm not going to watch the video again for someone who's snarky but I do think he mentioned that the first time he heard it he felt that although the PA was very far away, it sounded much closer. In any case, the point about less loss of energy over distance is one of the major advantages of a line-array.
The type of “point source” system he referred to was the type he had 20-30 years ago. It didn’t behave as a point source and likely didn’t drop 6dB per doubling in the near field (back to not being a point source). Rats old system was really incoherent, vdosc was a big improvement. 25 years ago line arrays were exciting and had several advantages. Nowadays large scale point source can be realised. All the advantages line arrays had modern point source has over line arrays. As an aside, line arrays don’t equal line source, in reality few aspire to achieve 3dB per doubling of distance for more than a couple of meters. Interestingly L’Acoustics new line array (note line array is a form factor, doesn’t mean line source) is trying to approximate a point source.
@@abescheele Thanks! I'm by no means an expert, I've studied the theory a bit - which doesn't always translate to reality - and that was some years ago. And yes, you're right that line-array doesn't equal line source, it's an approximation and the lower the frequency, the shorter the distance it approximates a line source. Interesting that L'Acoustics new system aims for point source - can you point me to more information please? I'd very much like to read up on that. As another aside, I suspect that a line-array achieves better energy distribution over distance simply by controlling the output of the different speaker elements in the column, with less vertical spread the top box would be able to output more power for the back making the SPL level front to back more even. Or am I wrong here?
Im an event engineer myself and i totally get his hype. i wish i could have been there before we had array calc and array measurement software just to really know how far we have actuall come
Great explanation. I am really into good sound and I was amazed with the good sound quality at two festivals I went to in the past two years. This explains why concerts sound so much better then they did 10 to 15 years ago.
This made me chuckle! Line arrays were THE setup for hall sound projection, more than 50 years ago when I was at school!! Funny how things get rediscovered!
He has designed his own subwoofers, and actually was the front of house sound human for the Red Hot Chili Peppers for around 20 years. He’s the best, and everyone knows it.
I was standing near at the front recently at a concert and let me tell you the sound was awful all i could hear was the bass barely hearing the singer, people who were in the back said that the sound was amazing and could hear the singer's mic perfectly
As a half deaf boomer or more accurately a Jones, I can attest, modern line array is just nuts. I was there at a lot of state of the art systems back in 70s . Wish I could still hear like i once could in my dog ear level days to really appreciate how awesome it is now.
i had to write a paper for my college Acoustics class, and I chose to write it on this topic. This video was so informative and helpful, and assisted me in creating an outline of topics to research further. Thanks WIRED and Dave:)
Great tip: Find a local stage company that's somewhat large, and ask them if they have any sound engineers who wants to give you any insight. 99% sure most of them will be super helpful.
I agree with everything but the part about making sound systems invisible. i personally love starring down a large bass horn when beeing encompassed by sound
I believe the Grateful Dead’s “Wall of Sound” was one of if not the first instance of line arrays used for live music. And this was back in 1974! Thanks to the crew at Alembic.
Wall of sound wasn't such. It was a very impressive multi point-source system. Kind of what Dave mentions about the first coachella he did but built behind the stage. It was an array for sure but not the line variety. Nonetheless a superb feat for it's times.
@@kekkonenhiihti the Wall of Sound was definitely predominantly a line array system. It had the instruments separated so each had a line array proportional in length to the lowest wavelength that instrument produced. So much great thinking in that system, shame it was so huge and expensive to tour with!
I’ve been going to big shows for over forty years. They often used to sound terrible, even when the audio engineers tried hard to make it sound good. Exceptions included Rush and Pink Floyd. The quality at live shows now is outstanding, especially impressive at outdoor gigs. However, at smaller gigs there’s still a tendency for bands to want everything as loud as possible rather than as clear as possible, which is a shame.
I must agree with Floyd having a fabulous sound system. I have also seen Yes group (in the round) and that's another great system.... although that was 20 years ago.
Back in the late 80s I went to a Jazz concert outside and sitting midway, the sound was too loud and distorted. Thinking I would remedy that, I moved further away to the back but it still was just as loud and distorted. Looking up I saw that they had mounted speakers every few rows back so i was still seated close to a distorting speaker. I gave up and left to save my ears.
The Grateful Dead and Owsley should be getting more credit for their “wall of sound”. They did so much for concert sound and I hardly ever see them mentioned.
@@smelltheglove2038 that’s cause it wasn’t that great of a system. It had hundreds of speakers that made it really expensive and a chore to haul on tour, and it created a terrible listening experience for the audience. Because each side had different audio coming out of it dedicated to each instrument that set of speakers was serving, like the top center set for the vocals or part of the right side being for keyboards, the audience got an extremely uneven sound, and struggled to hear one instrument over another depending on where they were sitting, especially near the front. It was a fantastic idea and led to the creations of dedicated monitors for musicians on stage but the system itself wasn’t that great.
Very interesting. I saw Tipper at Red Rocks and they brought the whole Funktion1 sound crew to engineer the sound. The stuff they were doing blew my mind.
I was astounded by the pristine sound quality and broad spectrum frequency output when I returned to festivaling at Boomtown 2019, compared to what it used to be at Creamfields 98/ Homelands 99. Massive smiles; makes the music so much more enjoyable. So sad the yougins now generally don't know the difference n just take it for granted. Cheers Techs
Danley and KV2 have something to say about line arrays being the end all be all. Quasi arrays like a Dynacord Cobra are also a great compromise when you don’t need mega output in med to small venues.
I want to hear sound AND see it, big speakers, inponent and vibrating. That's why i love soundclash culture. I don't think people want the soundsystem to be invisible. Those line arrays look dope btw
I'm a retired touring FOH sound engineer after 45 years. Line array systems are super badazz!!! The inventor of the line array, Tom Cox called me after he found out I mixed a tour on his Vdosc design. He wanted to know what I thought about Vdosc. I believe I thanked him about 4 times and accused him of being a genius. We talked for an hour. Nothing comes close to the clarity and accurate frequency response of a line array.
Can you name a single world-class touring band carrying point-source boxes? I don't know of any but I'd love to find out anyone that is. Having a system that is scalable will you carry a bunch of identical boxes and can increase or decrease coverage based on how many you deploy versus having to have specific boxes for specific venue types is pretty self-explanatory
Dave Rat never fails to entertain. Super knowledgeable about audio and also a fantastic teacher. He also got me started with sending purely analog audio over ethernet cabling which is a super awesome technique. It can send an analog signal over 4km before significant signal loss, which is just insane.
In my experience… If a line array is positioned somewhere windy, the sound is prone to getting blown around and causing a weird phasing effect that’s as bad as point source comb filtering, if not worse. The best solution is a combination of the two philosophies, like AC/DC’s epic rig. That was the best sound I’ve ever heard outdoors.
Was looking for this comment. Everyone praising line arrays here have never stood in front of the famous pyramid stage at Glastonbury, it sounds awful. Too large a space to cover, no matter where you stand it sounds all wishy washy and phasy!
And when there's a problem in calculating those angles for line arrays. Well... it doesn't pay off to be in a good position if you can't hear singing for example (yes, I've experienced this).
Yeah AC⚡DC Scorpions GnR Motley Crue Van Halen Dire Straits and RUSH.....those bands put big money into their sound system and it shows........when you can hear the music pretty clearly without any phazing or distortion and hear the highs and voices over top everyone screaming it's a good set-up.......those bands blew me away
The rig ACDC took out on black ice did sound amazing no matter where you were.. it looked like a mix of EV x array and clair I5 and a huge sub stack of EAWs . They sounded great when they toured with the EV MT4 stuff as well on razors edge and ballbreaker
The vertical comb filter effect that his model still has is also negated in modern line array systems by having the individual speakers have a very narrow vertical angle of emission and ever so slightly angling them to one another. That's why the array is curved like that
Danley's designs are *mental*. Incredible if given suitable program material... but a terrifying prospect for the Brickwall limiter crowd. Horns don't like being pushed really hard. This is why everyone is running bass reflex for the LF. I don't really agree with this way of doing things but it makes lots of sense.
The crazier thing for me is that he is taking about line array ‘tops’, but Subs are now cardioid as well, meaning you can direct their sound in a direction. Sound quality at festivals is just so so good.
@@ke6gwf he absolutely didn't. It was Harry Olson, the father of line array theory, who first researched directional sub arrays. It was in 1973 I believe, when Dave Rat was 11.
@@michalmartyniuk93that's why I said "kind of" lol I think Dave was the one who brought it into the large scale live sound arena and took the concept and research and created a working system through a lot of experimentation and testing.
Dave is that rarest of all things, a sound engineer who actually experiments. He has tried dozens of different arrangements of subwoofers, trying to produce the best and most even coverage. The sad truth is that most sound " engineers" just do what they've seen everybody else do, they put the microphone *here* because everybody else does. Whereas Dave would try it a dozen different ways.
In the 1970s we used column speakers. in these column speakers were 6, 8, or 12 loudspeakers above each other, in this way we could project the sound reasonably well where we did and where we did not want it. So you see that old techniques are being reinvented again and again.
I read about this theory in an electronics mag in the early 1980s. Why did it take them so long to put it into practice? They were first used in public address systems such as leisure centres using 100v line drivers so you could run long cables without too much loss.
Probably due to the lack of processing power. The modern systems like the V-DOSC or K1 mentioned in the video need a lot of delays and some filters. You can check out those systems. Manufacturer were l'Acoustics, D&B and Meyer Sound. Of course, there are a lot more, but those are probably the major ones.
because.. ego. "Don't tell me how to do my job I've been setting speakers up like this for longer than you have been alive..." - Also it can take time for people (PA setup people) to try something new, they'd mostly prefer to stick with what everyone else does so they don't get criticized if the new idea doesn't sound correctly even though the technique is still in development.
I remember crewing a gig for the Eagles around 2015 and they were using the big old square speaker cabinets FOH as they preferred the sound (perhaps for themselves on stage rather then the audience).
Yes Line Arrays was innovative. However, point source has also innovated and now we have systems like the Danley J-8 and EV MTX that require a single speaker to cover what a line array was doing.
Point source will never be able to cover the same amount of audience with the same amount of granularity and control that a line array can if every box has its own channel and processing.
Line arrays align the high frequency sources vertically. As you walk left to right while you are still in the horizontal pattern of the line array horns, you still see just one line of high frequency sources. And it is easy to solve the problems of an array in just one dimension. Before line arrays became popular, audio system designers and sound system manufacturers were working on ways to make the large side-to-side arrays act like a virtual point source (see EAW KF750 for an example). But it was very difficult to make this type of array behave like a point source because the size and shape of the enclosures and the drive units did not allow those sections of the array to truly converge on a point, so there was still side-to-side spacing of the sources, and separation of the high frequency horns. Tom Danley's Unity Horn/Synergy Horn principles (and to a certain extent the earlier Renkus-Heinz Co-Entrant horns) are the most like a true point source.
There is no such thing as a true point-source speaker. And if someone could make it no one would use it. As a true point source radiates the exact same sound in all directions and is infinitely small
Would I be right in saying the old systems were EV Manifold boxes? They always sounded better to be than most modern line-arrays. Very heavy and you need a lot of them but they rocked.
It's so amazing how they could manage to get rid of those 'wall of sounds' and replace it with line array 'pole' speakers! I used to hate the line arrays as I thought they were cheap and sounded crappy but now after watching this video, I absolutely love them and can't wait to go to a live concert to here them for the first time! I loved seeing the old school wall of sounds set ups but those line arrays, very appreciative that they're taking over the sound of the concerts!
Clearly Dave Rat has not heard any of the new modern Danley designs. Just like line array has improved, so has point source. Would love to see him run an objective shootout.
I've heard lots of Danley, including demos of gear they have brought to our shop. I love all different types of systems and the various applications they excel at. For big festivals and doing a wide variety of sound applications,, systems that require long throw, medium throw and short throw boxes are less practical than systems that have a single enclosure that can achieve long, medium or short throw when combined together in simple line lengths
History's a bit wrong. Line arrays were popular in the '70s and '80s, then fell out of fashion, and are now coming back. I remember sitting in an AES convention in LA in the early '80s with a line array in the main auditorium.
Large format line arrays with predictable and controllable coverage started with V-Dosc in the mid 90s and it wasn't till the late 90s that we got systems big enough to really cover large spaces. V-dosc hung 24 deep, in 1999 K1 that hangs 24 deep was released and that was the game changer for large format coverage.
When I heard Tool play in 1999 (and they had a grid/array/speaker wall) it was the best sound system I had ever heard. But in the first few minutes of playing the sound was off, it was muddy. I suppose the sound engineer heard what I was hearing and within a couple of minutes had the sound dialed in. The guitars was “right there”, the drums kicked hard in my chest. I was amazed at how good they sounded.
Appreciate the stereotype and though I don't smoke the ganja or do any drugs, I do appreciate all whom are able to find success in doing something that they love and makes people happy
Line arrays are a lot like the old column pas of the 60’s and 70’s, what I started with 😂 it always makes me wonder if the old designers were on to something back then. I love the modern PA systems we have these days.
![[DRAGON BALL LEGENDS REVEALS ＆ STUFF] LEGENDS FESTIVAL 2024 Special Edition Part 1](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/mV5bGIswTtQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Sound systems and speakers really get this guy amped up.
Can you hear me now?
I love hearing people talk about their passion.
I can't believe I made a living doing something I love!
@@DaveRat Sure beats installing lawn sprinklers, doesn't it? 🤔😉😎✌️
Ok, you won the joke contest on this video, congrats! 😂
Dave Rat is the *THE* man to talk regarding live sound and PA systems, really great depth of knowledge.
@@theacethree7943 🤙👍🤙
@@theacethree7943 in the live sound sub? id like to read through that if you have the link or could tell me what to search.
@@theacethree7943 Yeah I agree with you about some of his ideas being wild, but I really respect how he throws his ideas out there!
@@Kynect2Hymn agreed! And there is no shame in that!!
Was stoked to see him in this. He's a genius
As a studio engineer, live has always astounded me. The entire experience is on the line and they get blamed for every little thing no matter how it occurs. And you don’t praise them when nothing bad happens because you don’t think about it til there’s a problem. I love these people. It’s a whole different world with so much at stake and they have all my respect. I haven’t wanted to try it even a bit after the gigs I was made to do in school lol. And this man in particular is such a legend. I love hearing his passion and knowledge on the subject.
I do live sound for a few venues in South Texas. You’d be surprised how often people do thank you for the sound. Especially if you know what you’re doing, it shows. Also, any artists seeing this.. please stop cupping your mic it heightens your chance of feedback in your monitor and it sounds terrible!!
@@murberec42 That’s good to hear. I’m sure there are places and demographics that are better than others in the gratitude department, too. And I love how universal audio pet peeves are lmao. It needs a top ten video or two.
You should look into the Grateful Dead 'wall of sound' stage setups. They were the true pioneers in live show audio engineering.
Yep, the best praise for a sound engineer is when you don't have anything to say!
Does any of you know what the smaller ones n the side do? And why the left one is not interfering w the right one? Y not have 3? 4?
I don't want the sound systems to be invisible. I love the look when you walk in a festival ground and see all those mighty line arrays 😍 gives me goosebumps every time
The first time I noticed a line array was on U2 360 tour. They made the stage look like a spider and the speakers were it's fangs.
Speaker cabinets protected by metal meshes only also looks better than those with a delicate sponge layer making the speaker cones invisible. Visible vibration of speaker cones are one of the symbols of live music!
I saw Slayer - with about 40 Marshall speaker boxes on stage. All for show, I’m sure - but it LOOKED loud. 🤣🤘
defqon 1 is a master in this 12 stages and no interference
@@JBF-GST-Tandathat looks old school now
I love being educated by people that not only know their field, but their passion for it ignites my interest in such a way that I end up watching the whole video - sometimes more than once. This guy is one of those people! :)
Honored!
Was feeling exactly the same!
@@DaveRat You're the man Dave.
Big fan.
agreed!
The information in this video is mostly wrong...
I love when people speak passionately about their craft or job!
Dave Rat is one of my role models. He's also extremely accessible and will frequently answer questions. He's an amazing resource.
How do you contact him? Email, social media?
@@oreothebest Email is always good.
@@realSethMeyers where can I find his email?
@@oreothebest dude, he has a RUclips channel. He even left a reply on someone’s comment saying how amazing he was…
@@whywelovefilm7079 that’s awesome thank.
Coachella sounded amazing basically anywhere I went on the festival grounds. I was amazed at how deep and otherworldy the bass could sound, it was honestly better than any headphones i've ever worn in my life
Awesome and thank you Andres!
imo speakers will always sound better than headphones
@@MVS0N_there's only a few cons to speakers like they cost a lot more than headphones you have to worry about everybody else hearing your music and taking up space but yes speakers are better at pretty much everything
@@Vex22778you don’t feel headphones in your chest
Headphones can be pretty amazing but you will never get the visceral feel that speakers can produce as the sound pressure waves hit your entire body.
Coachella 2023 was the first live music/concert I've seen in a while since the tribute to Chester with Linkin Park, and I was so surprised how good everything and everyone sounded.
1:19 I want to thank you for the seemingly small point you made about going 'if you were moving up and down you would hear the problems' that really cleared things up for me. Sometimes it the little things that make a big difference. This was an interesting video.
In 20 years when they add hover seats this is going to be a major problem.
@shockedbywater @barcodenosebleed The part that they skim over is that it IS a problem currently. Because festivals happen on slopes and theaters/venues have sloped seating, people still fall in those overlaps. For this and other reasons, line arrays aren't a perfect solution, just a great one for big festivals. One of the big advantages that they don't mention here is that with the granular adjustment of line arrays, the speakers at the top of the array pointed at the back can be CRANKED to get a good sound level at the back without blowing out the front row's ears, which is great for concerts. That's half of what Dave talks about with it "sounding like you're closer to the stage than you are."
This is the never-ending audio dilemma that keeps folks like Dave and I employed: one speaker isn't loud enough, and two speakers combing sound worse than one!
@@kylanbowden6125 Modern PAs are really fascinating. I never did live sound, but I did audio production for about a decade in radio (and recorded some local bands) back in the early 00s before switching to computer programming about 13 years ago; it's mind-boggling what's possible now.
I caught another video yesterday with Chris Hoff w/ Styx talking a bit about the PA engineering side of things and similar challenges like you mentioned, a LA really close to the ground in a partially closed pavilion and the ability to tune each box and the software capabilities these systems now have embedded to solve problems/model spaces, geometry, crossover, etc.
Would absolutely love to get a job at one of these or related companies doing audio-adjacent software development for something like that or FOH/console something or other apps. Going to have to poke around on some of the job boards for these companies.
@@kylanbowden6125Why do Red Rocks acts often use line arrays then? Wouldn’t vertical domain be an issue since it is a slope?
@@acey6894 Absolutely! It's just one of those situations where nothing comes for free, and the benefits of using a line array in that scenario -- loudness, granularity, etc. -- outweigh the disadvantages.
Keep in mind that speaker technology in general is so good today that the "issues" talked about with line arrays or point sources are minuscule compared to even 20-30 years ago. Arrays have been specifically designed to make the "bad" spots (where you're right between two boxes' coverage) sound as good as possible. Most modern array software, you go in and tell it what angle you've physically set between each box, and it does the math to help control some of the interaction between boxes.
My original comment was mostly just frustration that the video tries to create a narrative where line arrays are the perfect replacement for point source boxes, which simply isn't true! Just two different tools.
There are so many sound engineers on youtube that try to explain line array and the effect that comes with it. But Dave Rat is just a true hero. The way he explains it, even a 5 y/o could understand it. And even me, 32 years old, who experiences quite a lot of PA-setups as a mobile sound engineer, i'm always amazed on his profession and lessons.
I also love his videos that he does in his workshop / garage. He goes deep into a topic, and it just never gets boring
yep and he explains it wrong ....
@@AsselParty Guess what, he's only human like you and me. Where was he wrong?
@@AsselParty Not sure what part he was wrong at, can you explain?
Amazing, now I will look at those speakers all day at the festivals lol
You should definitely take note, those are Million Dollar+ Stereos, basically. For a sound nerd like me it's part of the draw to hear a system of that magnitude in person!
@@djjazzyjeff1232 im more interested in the guys contrlolling and programming the pyro and intelligent lighting. take yourt snobby sound crap ans shove it up your az
Welcome to my life
System design is one of those fields that you don't even realise is a thing until you pull back the curtain and realise the insane amount of physics and math it takes for something you stand and watch a show and take for granted
Look up the 'Grateful Dead Wall of Sound' they were the true pioneers of live festival sound engineering and went to some insane lengths to get good audio. I think I remember they got to a point where every string on Jerry Garcia's guitar had its own amp and speaker setup.
Remember, if you go to a gig and you like what you hear, you can always give the PA guy a compliment!
I still remember Portishead at Lowlands. That was the clearest sounding, most perfectly adjusted PA i've heard in my entire life.
Love Portishead! They are well known for amazing sound and music is awesome!
Another interesting property of the line array that's relevant to festivals is that because the wavefronts spread roughly cylindrically rather than spherically the sound intensity drops by only 3dB for each doubling of distance rather than 6dB for a point source. Which explains why they can sound so much louder far away. Traffic on a busy road also has this property which is why it's so fricking annoying for local residents.
Modern speakers also handle way more power and have a higher sensitivity rating. In the early 2000’s and normal point shoot box ran at 600wrms and was about 97db. Modern stuff runs at say 2000wrms and is at least 100db. That’s a huge difference.
This is indeed a very big advantage.
However, a road consists of uncorrelated sources instead of correlated as in a line array. So the radiation pattern of a road is indeed -3dB per distance doubling, but also only 3dB sound pressure doubling if the traffic intensity doubles (compared to 6dB in a line array when doubling the speakers)
Dave living the dream! Imagine being able to be mentored by him. Bet you he's got some great stories, and equally great insights about sound design. Keep doing your thing Dave!
You can already be mentored by him indirectly! He has HOURS of content and 90% of the time he will give you an answer and advice if you ask ruclips.net/user/daverat
Wel are all getting mentored by him. He is like a line array personified, very accessible with a lot of coverage throughout. Even I can understand the topics he touches lol.
He has an Ayima t9, great little Chinese class D amp with a stereo valve buffer filter, and Bluetooth connectivity! Cheap Audio Man subscriber here.
A bit nerdy but one thing that wasn't mentioned is that a point source has a 6dB drop of volume per doubling of the distance (inverse square law) whereas a line source (aka line-array) has a 3dB drop per doubling of the distance. A point source spreads its energy in a spherical manner, and a line source in a cylindrical manner, meaning less loss of energy over distance. This is what Dave referred to when he felt the speakers where so close yet so far away.
Now, this is theoretical and no line-array achieves this to 100%. It's also dependent on wavelengths vs the length of the line-array - the lower frequencies acts more like a point source in comparison to the higher.
What Dave was referring to was good stereo imaging lol
Old point source rigs destroy it
@@oblitafier In the first part of the video that's what he demonstrates, yes. I'm not going to watch the video again for someone who's snarky but I do think he mentioned that the first time he heard it he felt that although the PA was very far away, it sounded much closer.
In any case, the point about less loss of energy over distance is one of the major advantages of a line-array.
The type of “point source” system he referred to was the type he had 20-30 years ago. It didn’t behave as a point source and likely didn’t drop 6dB per doubling in the near field (back to not being a point source). Rats old system was really incoherent, vdosc was a big improvement. 25 years ago line arrays were exciting and had several advantages. Nowadays large scale point source can be realised. All the advantages line arrays had modern point source has over line arrays.
As an aside, line arrays don’t equal line source, in reality few aspire to achieve 3dB per doubling of distance for more than a couple of meters. Interestingly L’Acoustics new line array (note line array is a form factor, doesn’t mean line source) is trying to approximate a point source.
@@abescheele Thanks! I'm by no means an expert, I've studied the theory a bit - which doesn't always translate to reality - and that was some years ago. And yes, you're right that line-array doesn't equal line source, it's an approximation and the lower the frequency, the shorter the distance it approximates a line source.
Interesting that L'Acoustics new system aims for point source - can you point me to more information please? I'd very much like to read up on that.
As another aside, I suspect that a line-array achieves better energy distribution over distance simply by controlling the output of the different speaker elements in the column, with less vertical spread the top box would be able to output more power for the back making the SPL level front to back more even. Or am I wrong here?
@@abescheele *enter Danley Sound Labs*
I love that they grabbed the most authentic sound guy i could imagine
Glad he got recognition. It's been a while since I last saw him (online) and now I'mma activate those bells of his.
Im an event engineer myself and i totally get his hype. i wish i could have been there before we had array calc and array measurement software just to really know how far we have actuall come
I still love to see the soundsystem. The amount of hardware at festivals is kinda mindblowing.
It's always fascinating hearing people talk about something they're really passionate about! Great job explaining, Dave!
Been following Dave's advice and knowledge for years! Rock On✌
Good stuff! Dave is a legend and always willing to break down difficult concepts for those who want to learn.
d&b line array is my favourite, you'll feel the sound like it's right in front of your face but actually it's way ahead
Great explanation. I am really into good sound and I was amazed with the good sound quality at two festivals I went to in the past two years. This explains why concerts sound so much better then they did 10 to 15 years ago.
This made me chuckle! Line arrays were THE setup for hall sound projection, more than 50 years ago when I was at school!! Funny how things get rediscovered!
W2 coachella sound was absolutely insane this year. Hats off bro. Mental
Awesome! Yeah, lots of upgrades this year to the sound.
honestly I love seeing the systems as much as hearing them. Build a few myself and each PA speaker is a piece of magic
i wanna know this guys take on subwoofer configuration! probably an even more complex and nuanced challenge
You're in luck: ruclips.net/video/SKjaGkZ8hSQ/видео.html
He is actually the guru of subwoofers.
He has designed his own subwoofers, and actually was the front of house sound human for the Red Hot Chili Peppers for around 20 years. He’s the best, and everyone knows it.
He has a huge lot of great info on sub setups.
I was standing near at the front recently at a concert and let me tell you the sound was awful all i could hear was the bass barely hearing the singer, people who were in the back said that the sound was amazing and could hear the singer's mic perfectly
Dave is the man. I remember schlepping those massive PA boxes for Pearl Jam at the Polo Fields in Indio. I couldn't move for a week.
And just like that I've learned something I didn't even KNOW I wanted to learn. So cool!
As a half deaf boomer or more accurately a Jones, I can attest, modern line array is just nuts. I was there at a lot of state of the art systems back in 70s . Wish I could still hear like i once could in my dog ear level days to really appreciate how awesome it is now.
i had to write a paper for my college Acoustics class, and I chose to write it on this topic. This video was so informative and helpful, and assisted me in creating an outline of topics to research further. Thanks WIRED and Dave:)
👍🤙👍
Great tip: Find a local stage company that's somewhat large, and ask them if they have any sound engineers who wants to give you any insight. 99% sure most of them will be super helpful.
Did you get an A on your paper?
@@dreammix9430 yup i got 100% on it:)
@@Dalligator 👍👍👍
Dave Rat is an absolute master of the craft.. and a great teacher too.
Dave Rat is the man 😎 his youtube channel has loads of great info on sound systems
I agree with everything but the part about making sound systems invisible.
i personally love starring down a large bass horn when beeing encompassed by sound
I believe the Grateful Dead’s “Wall of Sound” was one of if not the first instance of line arrays used for live music. And this was back in 1974! Thanks to the crew at Alembic.
Correct, it is funny they did not give credit in this video.
Wall of sound wasn't such. It was a very impressive multi point-source system. Kind of what Dave mentions about the first coachella he did but built behind the stage. It was an array for sure but not the line variety. Nonetheless a superb feat for it's times.
@@kekkonenhiihti the Wall of Sound was definitely predominantly a line array system. It had the instruments separated so each had a line array proportional in length to the lowest wavelength that instrument produced. So much great thinking in that system, shame it was so huge and expensive to tour with!
Owsley never gets the credit he deserves. People only seem to remember him for the LSD.
@@kekkonenhiihti it was definitely a line array for the guitars with everyones stacks completely vertical.
I’ve been going to big shows for over forty years. They often used to sound terrible, even when the audio engineers tried hard to make it sound good. Exceptions included Rush and Pink Floyd. The quality at live shows now is outstanding, especially impressive at outdoor gigs. However, at smaller gigs there’s still a tendency for bands to want everything as loud as possible rather than as clear as possible, which is a shame.
I must agree with Floyd having a fabulous sound system. I have also seen Yes group (in the round) and that's another great system.... although that was 20 years ago.
Back in the late 80s I went to a Jazz concert outside and sitting midway, the sound was too loud and distorted. Thinking I would remedy that, I moved further away to the back but it still was just as loud and distorted. Looking up I saw that they had mounted speakers every few rows back so i was still seated close to a distorting speaker. I gave up and left to save my ears.
The Grateful Dead and Owsley should be getting more credit for their “wall of sound”. They did so much for concert sound and I hardly ever see them mentioned.
@@smelltheglove2038 that’s cause it wasn’t that great of a system. It had hundreds of speakers that made it really expensive and a chore to haul on tour, and it created a terrible listening experience for the audience. Because each side had different audio coming out of it dedicated to each instrument that set of speakers was serving, like the top center set for the vocals or part of the right side being for keyboards, the audience got an extremely uneven sound, and struggled to hear one instrument over another depending on where they were sitting, especially near the front. It was a fantastic idea and led to the creations of dedicated monitors for musicians on stage but the system itself wasn’t that great.
Very interesting. I saw Tipper at Red Rocks and they brought the whole Funktion1 sound crew to engineer the sound. The stuff they were doing blew my mind.
I was astounded by the pristine sound quality and broad spectrum frequency output when I returned to festivaling at Boomtown 2019, compared to what it used to be at Creamfields 98/ Homelands 99.
Massive smiles; makes the music so much more enjoyable. So sad the yougins now generally don't know the difference n just take it for granted.
Cheers Techs
Dave is the MAN! Have worked festivals with him and his crew are best of the best.
Went to lost lands as my first music festival, I've never heard music that was so extremely loud while sounding absolutely perfect before
PK Bass is truly a blissful experience at LL🔥 5th Yr Veteran this year😎
Really awesome to see Dave Rat on WIRED. He's such a smart and awesome guy.
Dave Rat is one of the reasons I even do live sound for a living now. Dave’s the fuckin man!!
I love how passionate this dude is about sound !
Danley and KV2 have something to say about line arrays being the end all be all. Quasi arrays like a Dynacord Cobra are also a great compromise when you don’t need mega output in med to small venues.
I want to hear sound AND see it, big speakers, inponent and vibrating. That's why i love soundclash culture. I don't think people want the soundsystem to be invisible.
Those line arrays look dope btw
line-arrays are boring af
Here is the latest cool Line Array gear and deployments ruclips.net/video/d5qPPbIX4J4/видео.html
@@DaveRat mad dope!
attending Coachella weekend 2, this will now be on the back of my mind
I didn’t expect to see Dave on here, I love him!
I'm a retired touring FOH sound engineer after 45 years. Line array systems are super badazz!!! The inventor of the line array, Tom Cox called me after he found out I mixed a tour on his Vdosc design. He wanted to know what I thought about Vdosc. I believe I thanked him about 4 times and accused him of being a genius. We talked for an hour. Nothing comes close to the clarity and accurate frequency response of a line array.
Two line arrays next to each other running different instruments of the same mix??!?!?! A villain and a genius
Been watching Dave's channel for a few years and never seen him do that demo. So simple and yet so clear of an explanation!
There are point source boxes like what Danley makes where you can cover an entire stadium with one box, And it would sound better than any line array.
Can you name a single world-class touring band carrying point-source boxes?
I don't know of any but I'd love to find out anyone that is.
Having a system that is scalable will you carry a bunch of identical boxes and can increase or decrease coverage based on how many you deploy versus having to have specific boxes for specific venue types is pretty self-explanatory
@@DaveRat danley jericho horn
@@DaveRat Large scale point-source systems have their place in electronic music dance events / festivals.
constant directivity
@@misscrabsTO yes.. 2360 will do it :)
so glad that Dave is getting noticed!
Wired never fail to entertain
Dave Rat never fails to entertain.
Super knowledgeable about audio and also a fantastic teacher.
He also got me started with sending purely analog audio over ethernet cabling which is a super awesome technique. It can send an analog signal over 4km before significant signal loss, which is just insane.
@@joeyverliesharen What? Can you provide a link? Do you mean Dante / AES?
@@joeyverliesharen Isn't running XLR balanced signals through CAT5/6/7 pretty common in the industry? Or did he popularize it?
So Crazy cool that dave gets a plattform.. he‘s a tital genius
In my experience… If a line array is positioned somewhere windy, the sound is prone to getting blown around and causing a weird phasing effect that’s as bad as point source comb filtering, if not worse. The best solution is a combination of the two philosophies, like AC/DC’s epic rig. That was the best sound I’ve ever heard outdoors.
Was looking for this comment. Everyone praising line arrays here have never stood in front of the famous pyramid stage at Glastonbury, it sounds awful. Too large a space to cover, no matter where you stand it sounds all wishy washy and phasy!
And when there's a problem in calculating those angles for line arrays. Well... it doesn't pay off to be in a good position if you can't hear singing for example (yes, I've experienced this).
Yeah AC⚡DC Scorpions GnR Motley Crue Van Halen Dire Straits and RUSH.....those bands put big money into their sound system and it shows........when you can hear the music pretty clearly without any phazing or distortion and hear the highs and voices over top everyone screaming it's a good set-up.......those bands blew me away
The rig ACDC took out on black ice did sound amazing no matter where you were.. it looked like a mix of EV x array and clair I5 and a huge sub stack of EAWs . They sounded great when they toured with the EV MT4 stuff as well on razors edge and ballbreaker
The vertical comb filter effect that his model still has is also negated in modern line array systems by having the individual speakers have a very narrow vertical angle of emission and ever so slightly angling them to one another. That's why the array is curved like that
This video is perfect. perfect man to talk about sound system designing.
Love the physical demo. Would love to hear your take on Danley solutions as well as they should also solve the vertical problem.
Danley's designs are *mental*. Incredible if given suitable program material... but a terrifying prospect for the Brickwall limiter crowd. Horns don't like being pushed really hard. This is why everyone is running bass reflex for the LF. I don't really agree with this way of doing things but it makes lots of sense.
The crazier thing for me is that he is taking about line array ‘tops’, but Subs are now cardioid as well, meaning you can direct their sound in a direction.
Sound quality at festivals is just so so good.
We even have cardioid line array tops so we can control horizontal dispersion better
I think Dave Rat kind of invented cardioid subs lol
I was reading his articles about it decades ago.
@@ke6gwf he absolutely didn't. It was Harry Olson, the father of line array theory, who first researched directional sub arrays. It was in 1973 I believe, when Dave Rat was 11.
@@michalmartyniuk93that's why I said "kind of" lol
I think Dave was the one who brought it into the large scale live sound arena and took the concept and research and created a working system through a lot of experimentation and testing.
Dave is that rarest of all things, a sound engineer who actually experiments. He has tried dozens of different arrangements of subwoofers, trying to produce the best and most even coverage. The sad truth is that most sound " engineers" just do what they've seen everybody else do, they put the microphone *here* because everybody else does. Whereas Dave would try it a dozen different ways.
In the 1970s we used column speakers. in these column speakers were 6, 8, or 12 loudspeakers above each other, in this way we could project the sound reasonably well where we did and where we did not want it.
So you see that old techniques are being reinvented again and again.
darn I love this, finally some exposure of the sound reinforcement industry!
The experience of walking between the main and outdoor stages when both have acts playing is insane.
I read about this theory in an electronics mag in the early 1980s. Why did it take them so long to put it into practice? They were first used in public address systems such as leisure centres using 100v line drivers so you could run long cables without too much loss.
Probably due to the lack of processing power.
The modern systems like the V-DOSC or K1 mentioned in the video need a lot of delays and some filters.
You can check out those systems. Manufacturer were l'Acoustics, D&B and Meyer Sound. Of course, there are a lot more, but those are probably the major ones.
because.. ego. "Don't tell me how to do my job I've been setting speakers up like this for longer than you have been alive..." - Also it can take time for people (PA setup people) to try something new, they'd mostly prefer to stick with what everyone else does so they don't get criticized if the new idea doesn't sound correctly even though the technique is still in development.
@@totaltwit It's mathematical. How good are you at maths?
@@Andrew-rc3vh Good, send me the equations. Even the design equations for speaker cabinets.
That happening the same week L-Acoustics presents their new line array L Series is just crazy.
Coincidence but cool. This video is time for Coachella
DAVE RAT THE MAN!
Dave is a true Icon in the industry, you found the best of the best tonexplain stuff like this
Never interrupt Dave Rat when he´s speaking please
Fascinating idea to put the vocals and guitar through one set and drums and bass through the other.
Yeah, even it it did sound like a hasty fix for his installation error.
I love how his beanie makes him just slowly fade into the background.
A separate pa for drums & vocals and guitar & bass is the most Dave rat thing I've ever heard
Awesome!!
@@DaveRat Man You taught me so much! I'm forever thankful for the wisdom you've shared 🙏
Huge fan of festivals like Let It Roll and Bass music in general, so this was so freaking interesting!
I remember crewing a gig for the Eagles around 2015 and they were using the big old square speaker cabinets FOH as they preferred the sound (perhaps for themselves on stage rather then the audience).
Yes Line Arrays was innovative. However, point source has also innovated and now we have systems like the Danley J-8 and EV MTX that require a single speaker to cover what a line array was doing.
Absolutely! Danley is the best!
J8 is a line array
Point source will never be able to cover the same amount of audience with the same amount of granularity and control that a line array can if every box has its own channel and processing.
@@unknownregions5014 aham shure
@@wtfatc4556 ??
They put one of these systems in the local hockey arena and the difference is night and day!
It’s awesome to see Jeff Spicoli doing so well.
No greater compliment! Thank you?
Line arrays align the high frequency sources vertically. As you walk left to right while you are still in the horizontal pattern of the line array horns, you still see just one line of high frequency sources. And it is easy to solve the problems of an array in just one dimension. Before line arrays became popular, audio system designers and sound system manufacturers were working on ways to make the large side-to-side arrays act like a virtual point source (see EAW KF750 for an example). But it was very difficult to make this type of array behave like a point source because the size and shape of the enclosures and the drive units did not allow those sections of the array to truly converge on a point, so there was still side-to-side spacing of the sources, and separation of the high frequency horns. Tom Danley's Unity Horn/Synergy Horn principles (and to a certain extent the earlier Renkus-Heinz Co-Entrant horns) are the most like a true point source.
Love Dave Rat. Dudes a legend.
I don’t agree with what u say at the end, I love to see the speakers! Amazing video 💯
I would have liked a mention of true point source speakers such as Danley :/
There is no such thing as a true point-source speaker.
And if someone could make it no one would use it.
As a true point source radiates the exact same sound in all directions and is infinitely small
Would I be right in saying the old systems were EV Manifold boxes? They always sounded better to be than most modern line-arrays. Very heavy and you need a lot of them but they rocked.
It's so amazing how they could manage to get rid of those 'wall of sounds' and replace it with line array 'pole' speakers! I used to hate the line arrays as I thought they were cheap and sounded crappy but now after watching this video, I absolutely love them and can't wait to go to a live concert to here them for the first time! I loved seeing the old school wall of sounds set ups but those line arrays, very appreciative that they're taking over the sound of the concerts!
And another big advantage is that it's easy and fast to mount the line array speakers to eachother and connecting power to it.
I used to met an sound engineer and speaker designer. He told me about this line array design and how the design was amazing!
Much respect to this guy 🔥🔥🔥🔥
Dave, you are the man! Having worked a ton of shows, I have experienced exactly what you are talking about. Stay frosty bro!
This was incredibly interesting!
Seen similar setup in Royal Albert Hall (hanging high above the stage) - and now I know why!.
This was explained so well....❤🎉...
He was a sound guy, always ready to amp up the mood.
Clearly Dave Rat has not heard any of the new modern Danley designs. Just like line array has improved, so has point source. Would love to see him run an objective shootout.
I've heard lots of Danley, including demos of gear they have brought to our shop.
I love all different types of systems and the various applications they excel at.
For big festivals and doing a wide variety of sound applications,, systems that require long throw, medium throw and short throw boxes are less practical than systems that have a single enclosure that can achieve long, medium or short throw when combined together in simple line lengths
As an audiophile, seeing the sound system is the best part to me!
and now we have the next generation of loudspeaker tech : The Multiple Entry Horn - thank you Danley Sound Labs!
At the 28th of august 2010 I was at a A-ha concert in Bergen Norway and they had this exact set up for the speakers. 13 years ago...
History's a bit wrong. Line arrays were popular in the '70s and '80s, then fell out of fashion, and are now coming back. I remember sitting in an AES convention in LA in the early '80s with a line array in the main auditorium.
Large format line arrays with predictable and controllable coverage started with V-Dosc in the mid 90s and it wasn't till the late 90s that we got systems big enough to really cover large spaces.
V-dosc hung 24 deep, in 1999 K1 that hangs 24 deep was released and that was the game changer for large format coverage.
When I heard Tool play in 1999 (and they had a grid/array/speaker wall) it was the best sound system I had ever heard. But in the first few minutes of playing the sound was off, it was muddy. I suppose the sound engineer heard what I was hearing and within a couple of minutes had the sound dialed in. The guitars was “right there”, the drums kicked hard in my chest. I was amazed at how good they sounded.
He looks exactly the part of a Californian ganja smoking sound engineer expert of his field.
Appreciate the stereotype and though I don't smoke the ganja or do any drugs, I do appreciate all whom are able to find success in doing something that they love and makes people happy
@@DaveRat holy crap you replied
btw what are your opinions on the new l2 and l2d series released by l acoustics?
@@alokesingh6243 they used that system in this year's coachella
@@DaveRat DAVE YOU LEGEND !
Line arrays are a lot like the old column pas of the 60’s and 70’s, what I started with 😂 it always makes me wonder if the old designers were on to something back then. I love the modern PA systems we have these days.
No they are not